Why This Ironman Hired TriVelo After Going Sub 9 - Alex Coe

Alex Coe, sub-10 loading to sub-10 loaded. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much, guys. It's nice to be here. Long time listener. It's nice to get the call-up. Excited for the chat.

Look, we, uh, we want to give people a bit of a background as to who you are if they haven't seen you online, but you've got such a great presence online just sharing your journey of coming into Ironman and aiming for your first sub-10 at our Ironman, which you, uh, you smashed, and then subsequently sub-9. Uh, so can you give us a little bit of a quick background to catch people up on, on your journey in and those time goals and where you're at now?

Yeah, so I got into triathlon because of David Zaharakis, actually. I saw him go sub-10 at Port Mac and just saw the photos on his Instagram and just, yeah, wanted that feeling. I didn't get sub-10 the first time around, actually. I attempted that at Cairns and missed by about 20-odd minutes, and that was really difficult. Like, that was, yeah, it broke me a little bit at the time. Ended up giving my bike away because of it. And then since then, I've had a real result at Busselton. Yeah, I went sub-9 at Busso, and not long after that, probably like 3 or 4 months once we got my Kona ticket, ended up coming on with you guys and progressing quickly again. So that's sort of like the quick timeline of my triathlon journey so far. Before meeting David and all that, I had no idea with triathlon at all. I was a complete beginner from the very start. So yeah, it's been a cool—

yeah, it's insane the talent you have. Yeah, to kind of self-coach yourself through those first few results and share your journey so openly online. And so many people gravitated towards you because you do really just share full vulnerability, exactly what's happening in your journey, the highs and the lows and all your mistakes. And you're very humble in terms of just admitting when you're completely out of your depth, when you've mucked something up. You know, and that's true for triathlon. When you come into the sport, there's just 1,000 lessons to learn, and you were sharing every single one along the way. But yeah, that first attempt, you know, when you've said to the world, I'm doing this, you gained a huge following quickly, and then you didn't get it. You know, what was your mental state like after that?

It was— yeah, like, immediately after the race, I was just devastated. It was like, you know, most people, when they complete their first Ironman, it's just this Adelaide, and they're super excited, and, you know, it's a great achievement. And I just couldn't get out of my head the disappointment. Like, I truly believed that I was going to do it. I thought I'd done enough and had a lot of belief. But, um, I'm a big believer that you're always where you're supposed to be, and that failure there— or failure, people say it's not necessarily a failure, but it is, um, in my eyes— it, it was the right thing that I needed it. And, uh, you Yeah, it ended up working out later on for in everything, in every space. So yeah.

What was that? What was the first race? Was it Port Mac or, uh, Cairns?

First was the first Ironman was Cairns.

Cairns. Ah, sorry. Yeah. A tough first Ironman to go into to try and get a time goal. You know, it's probably the slowest Ironman in Australia within the toughest conditions as a lot of people found out this year. And so you did the right thing by switching to your home race in Busso, a nice fast flat course and It's only the dry heat you have to contend with.

It's funny, man, I picked Cairns because I was living over in Europe at the time when I booked it, and I was like so inexperienced with triathlon and Ironmans and everything that I was like, oh, I'll just book Cairns. It seems to be like the closest one to where I was going to be living on the Gold Coast, and later found out that that was just not the case and Port Macquarie was. So I ended up booking the probably the wrong one, but Cairns was such a good experience. I Yeah, have a lot of fond memories there even though it was a tough day. But then, yeah, like you said, booking the faster course at Busso as the redemption arc was— it was phenomenal. That was a hell of a day, that one.

Yeah, I'm keen to talk about that. And look, you eventually contacted us this year and you said, look, I want— I've got some lofty goals at Kona. I want to do as well as possible and I want to get some full-on structure and coaching accountability from a coaching group. You've been pretty self-coached for the most part, uh, up until that point, um, which we, we were just kind of licking our lips going, yeah, this guy has talent, you know, look at what he's done kind of on his own and pretty new to the sport. And we couldn't wait to get our hands on your training peaks. But it's funny for us because Dad is, is obviously not as online as, as most of us are, you know, he's not on social media. So I knew exactly who you were and had followed your journey, but, but he's sort of going, who's this guy, you know, what's he doing?

I'm going, well, if you want to get coached, it's pretty exciting.

Because he's a, he's a pretty talented athlete. So Dad, what were your first thoughts when I, I've shown you who this guy was and, and he's gone, there's 16 or 17 weeks to Kona, and can you help me?

Yeah, I must, I must, I must say I had to do some research on what he'd done before, and, and I was quite shocked at how, how little experience Alex had and for the phenomenal performances that he was able to do. So straight away, what you told me, Gerard, was 100% correct. And I was kind of— got very excited then because my initial response was, there's not enough time here between what he's asking us to do to be the world champion in his age group, and Kona is literally around the corner. And I was saying to George, what is this guy— what's he thinking here? This is, you know— and then, and then I started looking at some of your data, um, because it was open to us then. And so And as you said, I'm really not following what's happening on social media at all. I'm so busy with what we're doing in our own coaching business, and that's the young people's job to get across that. But it was really— I was really pleased with what I'd seen, and it excites me when someone who's had such limited experience, their ceiling is massive. Like, where can this go? This can go anywhere with the right guidance, but the time thing was always a problem for for me. But, you know, the fact that he had 2 goes at Ironman previously gives us some, some chance. So, so I always worry that we progress people too quickly and, and don't give them the time that they need to actually become the athlete they want to. And, and time is everything. Yeah, people want everything instant gratification, don't they? We all do want that. But, but you've got to be more patient. And it's just no different to the analogy of racing. Be a right— be an Ironman patient racer and you'll get a really good result. Be patient with your, with your, uh, journey on, uh, on your preparation for any race you're going to do. The more time you give yourself, uh, the better. Look, I've said to Alex already so many times, the form you're in, like when we first started, which was May, was it, Alex?

Yeah, just, I think, hey, we did our first test.

Yeah, the form you're in in May will be different to July, will be different to October, and will be different to December if you can carry on the journey. And, and that's hard for people to hear. They just, they don't care about that. They just want, they just want to you know, what, what do I need to do? And I think that was what excited me, was he was basically saying to me, just tell me how high to jump and I'll do it.

Yeah. And Alex, your thoughts on all that and that starting point?

Yeah, well, I think I said to you at the cafe when I caught up with you here on the Goldie, I said, your dad must have been thinking when we first did that round of testing that you would have— he would have been thinking like, what, who the hell is this guy, man? Like, he's can't even run a sub-4-minute pace and he's trying to win Kona. I can imagine the thoughts that were going through your guys' head, but I appreciate hearing this now. Like, I sort of expected that. But yeah, we've progressed really quickly and I'm excited to, yeah, to keep moving in the right direction.

Yeah, that, that starting data point is really interesting and it creates a really good discussion point because, you know, you, you came to us and we did our first round of testing just to see where your current form was. And we're glad we did because your current form was nowhere near your ceiling. You know, it was just because of the training you'd been doing in the months leading up and you'd been away a bit and you were training for an ultra marathon. And we can discuss that a little bit as well. I think a bit of a silver lining that that didn't go ahead for your Kona prep. But, you know, we could look at that data of the first testing week and say, oh, you're way off, you know, winning Kona for your age group. But we know that that wasn't your ceiling, you know. And so it's like that data was just to get your form for the first block of training. It wasn't to see, you know, how close you were. And you knew that. And all those data points, you were testing lower than what you raced it. Nice last year at the 70.3 World Champs and, um, and Busso, you know. So all your numbers between October and December, and this is the beauty of TrainingPeaks and being able to look back at that data, we can go, hey, your 20-minute, your power numbers here and your, your racing sessions here and what you did in the race is actually even higher than what you've just tested for 20 minutes in a test with us, you know. So clearly there's a gap here and clearly you're just a bit out of bike form and that those legs will come back really quick. And same with the running, you know, you're you couldn't go sub-4-minute pace in the test, yet you're kind of capable of that, um, in a half Ironman, or, you know, potentially Ironman now. So, um, yeah, so it's just a matter of, of getting that starting point, but you've progressed super quick. And, and I guess my, my, my question is, what, what was your mindset around going, um, you know, let's, let's get some, some coaching help? And as a coach yourself, you know, get that mindset of, of being able to to put the thinking off to someone else and about around the structure of your program and everything?

That's a really good question. I had self-coached the whole way from complete beginner to the sub-9 at Busso. And I think like as much as I was, I have a lot of belief in myself, right? And I knew that I could, you know, keep progressing and progressing. But I'm— I was none the wiser. I knew that there were things that I didn't know and that there getting a little bit of guidance and a little bit of experience from you guys or from someone else was going to progress me quicker. And the other thing as well is like I just started my own coaching business, so now I'm scheduling, you know, 15 athletes of my own. Then getting to do my own was just like, it's just exhausting. And it's, it's hard to, it's hard to know yourself and give yourself advice compared to giving other people advice. So at this point with just the crossroads that I was at with like my own coaching and wanting to progress quicker and get some experience, I wanted to reach out and get a coach. And I met with a few. I'm not going to lie. I think you guys know this. And you guys were very clearly the best candidate. It was very obvious to me pretty early on that I think Gerard called me first after Matt got in touch with me. Then Jordie, you called me as well. And it was just, yeah, I pretty much knew straight away that this was going to be a decent relationship, and I was really excited to get into it when I got back from Bali.

Now, we've been, yeah, pretty pumped with you sharing the journey, and you give a great insight into what our athletes feel, you know, once you start the program and the experience of, you know, just taking on some structured sessions from someone else. You know, it's— we have our way of doing things, and watching you tackle, you know, different VO2 work and threshold work, and yeah, tell us your experience. I think you've trained as a real diesel engine athlete, like your aerobic base, even though you're, even though you're, um, uh, you know, testing numbers at the start weren't super high, uh, your aerobic base was absolutely fantastic. You know, you're coming from such a strong base. Um, actually now I thought to you, Dad, you know, that for us that straight away just goes, all right, well, we kind of need to do a bit of the opposite. You know, you've got that base there and we want to keep working on that to keep, you know, building that foundation for Kona. But straight away you go, oh, there's just a real lack of intensity here. And as an Ironman athlete, you think that makes sense. Well, it's not an intense event, but to do some short VO2 work is quite counterintuitive for an Ironman athlete, but it's actually exactly what Alex needed.

Yeah, and look, funnily enough, Alex and I were just talking about this morning, and we were talking about some of his run sessions and with some intensity, and I was saying— I said exactly that to Alex this morning. I said, you know, you've got such a good aerobic base, yet you, you know, you're having trouble with these short, hard efforts that we're giving you, and that's actually acceptable because you haven't done any fast races, you know, short, fast races, which is the requirement of that. And, and so, and you know, we profess this that you don't need to do a lot of hard, short running to do an Ironman. So, so that was never a worry. The aerobic base that, that Alex had was fine, but we still needed to get his engine, his FTP up higher to where it should be. And the only way to do that, as I explained to him right at the start, was we need to do heaps of VO2 and a lot of threshold work. And, and you'll see the results straight away. And Alex, you could tell the story. How has that gone for the last 8 weeks?

I think Jordy hit the nail on the head when he said that I was a diesel athlete. I like that term because in the lead up to Busso and when I was coaching myself, it was all like— it was mainly zone 2, upper zone 2 stuff. I did very, very little above that. I spent a lot of time on the bike, but it wasn't Yeah, it was very different to what we're doing now. And then as soon as I started with you guys and I got into the VO2 stuff, I noticed that riding at lower watts or lower, you know, in that zone 2 that I was at was just easier. And then on top of that, I noticed that the running just progressed so quickly. I had this— yeah, I was just able to, you know, sit at a 4:20 pace that normally would be my long, uh, sorry, normally would be like a really challenging sort of 155, 160 heart rate. And all of a sudden it was just super low compared to what I'd been experiencing. And I, I, I could only accredit that to either the VO2 stuff that I was doing as well as maybe the strength work that I've got from Kate that I've been doing as well. But yeah, I, I noticed pretty, pretty early on that the VO2 stuff and the threshold stuff was, was making a quick progression. Really quick progression. So I was really enjoying that, loved it.

Yeah, we see that translate off the bike so well, so often. You almost unlock that intensity side of you, which, which makes all the relative efforts feel easier even across disciplines, which is such a surprising effect from the body. But it works so well for most people, and, and now you've kind of unlocked this ability to run quite long and quite consistently between around your, you know, just below your Ironman pace, or even at Ironman pace, you know, you're really quite comfortable between 3:50 and 4:20 pace depending on the day, which is really phenomenal for yourself. So we're very short in, and, and, uh, I will say you've got this combination of factors that, uh, it's just a dream for a coach in that you've, you've got time to train, and so we kind of can fill you up as much as possible without trying to overcook you, you know. Uh, the term is pro hours, but um, you get to train big volume and try and recover from that. You've still got work and obviously you need to do, so it's not, it's not just feed up like a pro would, but you've got great hours, you've got incredible motivation, um, and you're a very disciplined athlete. So kind of, you know, you're, you're saying, tell me exactly what to do and I'll do it. And that combination is, it's a recipe for rapid progression. And that is kind of what's happened, as we expected. But you still have to put in the work, and it doesn't just happen just because you're talented and have time. You still have to do it. And you've said plenty of weeks so far where you go, oh, I'm on my limit here, like, this is, this is a hard one. Or, all right, it's 4 hours in the hills today on a Wednesday, zone 2, and it's pissing down the whole time. Like, do I really want to do this, you know? And, um, I think it's a really important point. People just disregard and say, oh, he's clearly got that talent, he's clearly got that power, you know, any program would progress him. And I think that's a disservice to you. And, and yeah, even though it's progressed rapidly, it has, it has not been an easy first kind of couple of blocks of training, has it?

I appreciate you saying that, man. It's nice when somebody notices the work. People see the results on my Garmin stats and everything, and they're like, oh, Farad is progressing really quickly. But I'm doing consistent 20-hour weeks, and that takes a toll on anyone. So, yeah, I appreciate that. What was the second part of that question?

Sorry, Jordy.

I lost the train of thought.

Oh, yeah. How have you found the blocks of training and getting used to the volume?

Yeah, um, for the most part I've progressed really quickly. I remember in the— at the start, um, I think Gerard Donnelly scheduled me a 3-hour ride and I was just so eager to get the volume back really quickly. And I managed 4 and then 4.5, and then all of a sudden we were at 5, 5.5 pretty quickly. Um, there was one weekend, I think it was not the weekend gone, the one before that, where we did that really— that 80-minute fast finish on that 5.5-hour bike. And then the pretty much our threshold run. And that was the first time where you really got me. And, uh, yeah, just crumbled a bit. I managed to get through the session, but just— I would call it a bonk. I just like really hit the wall. And, um, it took me a little while to recover from that. But I mean, for the most part, you've— the progression's been really, really nice. And every single time it might get to a little bit too much, I feel so comfortable being able to text your dad and be like, 'Gerard, I need to just pull this one back a little bit,' and then he just reassesses and changes the plan for the next few days. And that's just invaluable, man. It's so hard to do that when you're by yourself coaching yourself. So being able to have that feedback from someone and be able to, you know, get that objective view and then to get the plan changed, that's been, yeah, invaluable for me for sure.

I'd love to chat about that, uh, that session because, you know, each week you'd kind of been building up like, 'Hey, you're still handling this. Okay, 4.5 hours and a big run. Hey, you're still handling it.' And you actually asked me, uh, we caught up for coffee once and you said, when does it stop progressing? You know, how big do we go like on the endurance rides? And I kind of laughed and I was like, well, you know, if you keep handling it, then there's kind of no ceiling. Like, obviously you're not going to ride for 10 hours, you know, Cam Wurf style, but it can keep going. But you will find your limit somewhere, and you definitely did on that day. And you use the term bonk, and bonk can mean so many things. It can mean nutrition bonking, like you didn't have enough fuel before, during or the night before. It can mean water or electrolyte bonking, which you experience in your ultra, which is, you know, not enough electrolytes, you'll just completely, you know, be incapacitated very quickly. Or too much water, same problem. Could be an execution thing with, with too much intensity. Um, and so I think it was a mix of things for you, or it can be a volume thing, like the volume's just too much for your body to handle, you know. And so, Dad, dissecting that day, um, what was your coach's perspective on, on a pretty challenging day and Alex's execution?

Yeah, and it wasn't like I was trying to break Alex, no matter what he says. Um, I'm definitely not in the business And for those who know and have experienced my coaching, I am super conservative, and I really care about every athlete not having a bad experience. But sometimes lessons are really best learnt when you have a really bad experience. And at the end of the day, as you said, there's a combination of things, Jordan, that probably happened on that day. But the main thing for Alex, I think, and I hope he's got this lesson, was the execution. The execution on the day, if you've got, if you've got an 80 minutes at 90% at the end of a 5-hour ride, you actually have to respect the previous 3 hours 50 and probably not do what you normally were doing the weeks prior. And then with the run, he just ran too quick early. And, and that's great to do that in training. It's not actually great for your actual physical and mental well-being, but it's so much better doing it there than on, you know, Kona in 40-degree temperatures. So, so it, you know, that lesson won't be forgotten, and, and you learn from that. And, and they're the things that, uh, you know, we talk about training. Well, training is really just preparing for race day. It's, you know, every time you go and, you know, put your shoes on, your running shoes, your cycling shoes, or your swimming goggles, you're practicing. It's a practice session for what's going to happen on race day. And that's how I try to coach each athlete. And so you've gotta be, you've gotta be mindful and conservative. What is the, what is the task today? And, and I think Alex has done that beautifully except for that one session where I, I know how he, I, I know his mindset. He's so motivated. I'm gonna prove that I can do this, this, and this on this day. And, and look, there's gotta be a tipping point, and you found it. And so we actually understand now, had you executed a little bit differently, you probably wouldn't have had those demons where you were saying, I hate triathlon. I never wanna do it again. I wanna sell my bike. And, you know, walking, walking was gonna be the next thing, but you didn't. And to me, there was a lot of really good positives from that day. Your mindset was incredibly tough. You were gone. You were, you had actually exploded yourself, yet you still found a way to finish and not fail that session, um, in terms of the duration. So I said to him, I'm more proud of that session than I was with all the previous 50 sessions that you'd done beautifully.

Very nice, man.

Yeah, any thoughts on that, Alex? Just that, uh, yeah, look, I, I want to provide— oh good, I want to, um, I want to provide some perspective there, uh, just on, on the data. And I'm not sure if you— if we actually went through this with you, but after that day, Dad and I looked at your percentage of FTP and just talking about that first 3.5 hours, 3 hours 40 needed to be, you know, really, you know, Zone 1 to Zone 2 kind of riding, just pressure on the pedals. You've been riding your previous weeks with a kind of a range of intensity, but you actually held, you know, about 83% of your kind of FTP for that first 3.5 hours. That is so, so high. And then you finished with, you know, the fast 80 minutes at the end, which was about 90 to 93%. Um, so the fact that you were able to ride so solid, that's kind of like Tour de France riding, you know, like high, high tempo and then, and then excessive riding at the end. You know, we talk about a 70.3 intensity is 80-90% of FTP and people hold that for 2 hours or 2 hours 30 or 3 hours. Um, you know, and so you've done a 70.3 effort for the whole first half and then lifted. Uh, it was really quite an impressive ride and it was no wonder when you put those numbers in perspective, there's no wonder you're feeling so gassed. Then after looking at the data, I said to Dad, I can't believe he could run off that. You know, that is just— that is such a tough 5-hour day. So as it's always, uh, silver linings and learnings, but, uh, for you, when it's, you know, as the athlete, when you're in it, your, your goal is survival. But, uh, mate, for you, I think— I hope a couple of weeks on you go, even though it didn't feel good and even though it was, um, absolutely brutal and felt like it broke you, I hope you feel like, wow, that was still a monster impressive effort, even though it wasn't designed to be. It was, uh, pretty incredible. Um, feat of 6 hours of training.

Oh mate, well, I appreciate that from both of you guys. Um, yeah, I— it was— for me, it was definitely the execution on the run was, was my fall down, I think. Um, I felt like the ride was really tough, don't get me wrong, but I've felt strong throughout most of that, and nutrition was fine. And I got to the run and just started way too hot, and yeah I like looking at the positives now. You're asking like, I hope you see the positives from that couple of weeks on. I remember texting Gerard after it being like, far out, I needed this almost because that feeling of hitting that wall is so bad. It's so, so bad. And I hadn't felt that really since Cairns, like July, you know, or June the year before. So feeling it again, while it sucks in the moment, it sort of reset my mind to be like, dude, you cannot have this in Kona. Like, you just cannot get to this point. So you need to learn and keep learning how to avoid this feeling so that you can execute well come Kona. And yeah, so looking at that, I think I texted him afterwards saying like, I needed this almost. Like, I'm okay, it sucked, I'm feeling like shit, but like, it's a good lesson and we'll keep improving from there. But yeah, for me it was the execution. I think we spoke about it as well. If I had just flipped it and started running at sort of 4:05s, then moved to 3:55s, I probably would have been able to hold on way better and not hit that wall where I'm doing 5:30s by the end of it.

Yeah, and it could have been, yeah, quite impressive. And one of the other risks is, and I think you probably felt this, is when you do overdo a session like that, it can put you in a bit of a little hole, you know, for sometimes for a few days or sometimes for a full week. And, and even mentally. And I think that with a combination of some other factors, you know, internal to training and external, you probably found yourself in a bit of a hole after that. And Dad, we do see that, and that's why we have a conservative approach You know, Dad, you, you're always saying to the athlete, yeah, you might get through it by the skin of your teeth, but, but watch for the consequences of what happens after.

Ironically, that's what we talked about again this morning, um, was, you know, just, just trying to do, uh, the session how you feel. Because, because being a motivated athlete, when they see a range, the athlete's going to be, that's the top of the range I'm going to hit every single one of these.

That's you, Alex, to a tee.

And And I was just saying this morning that, that, you know, we have a range for that reason. You know, we talk about if you're on the bike, there's 3 things we're looking for. How do you feel when you see that number and what's your speed? And, and so we're trying to work out those 3 metrics. There's also cadence. There's also heart rate. There's so many other variables that can come into it, but they're quite important. How do I feel this week even though I might be in the form of my life and I wake up and I'm feeling pretty average. And so the range needs to be used to its benefit, which is start low. And, and you might find that during that session, you need to stay low the whole way. But as long as you're in the range, you're still ticking that box of making sure you're getting the value of the session. But the motivated athlete, they're just gonna be hitting that at the top of the range every damn session. And instead of, you know, getting through 4 or 5 weeks of that, they will eventually after 6 or 7 weeks just be so exhausted that they're— they can't actually ride in the range anymore. Their, their progression has deteriorated, and, and that's a really hard thing to learn. And, and they're the things that we talk about in, in our discussions is, you know, it's okay, Alex, to, to, you know, to, to be anywhere in the range you like according to how you feel. These are your numbers. You're in charge. And if you feel great each, each session, By all means, go for it, but be aware the consequences of Tuesday session on Thursday, Thursday session on Saturday, Saturday session on next week. So looking at a program individually day by day is really good. Looking at it week by week over a block of 4 weeks, looking at it over, you know, 1 month into 2 months into 3 months, you wanna be able to keep layering those sessions and not miss because consistency allows you to progress quicker. The minute you lose consistency, your progression stagnates or deteriorates. And so they're the things that we try to teach our athletes, and Alex has really taken this on board, is, is pull your head in, just ride to how you're feeling in the numbers that we've provided with the ranges we've tested you to. That's the key thing. Otherwise, you're guessing. And, and it's really, it's really the way to structure a program. And, and you know, when you when you can push and you know when you can't. And learning that, remember I said before, you know, we're practicing what's going to happen for race day. So when it comes to race day, it's automatic because you've repeated that, that daily, weekly, monthly. You've done the same thing. I think that's what Alex is really good at. He's also good at being curious. And this is what I love about athletes who are curious— they will perform better. And, you know, it sounds like we're pumping you up a lot here, but you deserve it because your first 8 or 9 weeks has been full of questions. And, and, you know, he's always saying, I'm sorry, I gotta ask you this question. I'm saying, Alex, ask away. If you— if your knowledge increases about what the goals are for each day and each week, then you're going to definitely— you know, a worker at his job, if he doesn't really understand what his goals are for each day, he's probably fluffing his way through work, a work day. An athlete who is clear, has clarity on what his intention is for each session. Why are we doing this? That question to ask is all the time. Why? What's this session about? What's this goal here? And then you're going to be on board. You're going to be really on board. And, and, and, you know, at the end of the day, that's what, that's what matters most is you trusting the process. And I think, I think that curiosity is really one of your strengths as well.

Well, I appreciate that, mate. And Don't— if you want to keep pumping me up, mate, on this pod, you know, that's absolutely fine. I don't really have too many issues. Just a bit of a chuckle before listening to you because there's been multiple times where you've said to me like, Alex, you know, it's okay to sit at the lower end of the ranges. You don't always have to be, you know, sitting at the top. And like, yes, I'm a motivated athlete. Yes, I love to, you know, show you guys that I can hit the top ranges, but I'm chuckling because going back to like, it's very hard to give yourself advice as opposed to giving someone else advice. These are the exact things that I tell my athletes. I'm constantly saying to them, guys, it's okay to sit at the lower end of the ranges. But when I get into training myself, it's like, I want to fucking go for it, you know? Excuse my language. Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes when you talk to me about it, Gerard, I'm just like, I know this, I know this. I don't like I already know it. So yeah, but I appreciate it all the time.

It's the exact same for us. We're constantly reminding each other, what did we just say on the podcast yesterday? You know, Dad's saying to me, what are you doing? Just back off and get some more easy volume. And I'm going, yeah, yeah, you're right. And then Dad calls me saying, my power's doing this. I said, what did we just say? It's not about the power, you know, it's about the speed here. We're still doing it to each other and coaching each other. And no, I, um, that I love that, that, uh, that response you had to the session going, I needed this, you know. And that's, that's the great sign of being willing to learn and, and progress. Because no doubt any athlete that takes on the Ironman will have one of those days in training if they're doing these big Ironman sessions, which you should be preparing for an Ironman. Every athlete has a really bad experience on one of them, you know, and has a bonking day or something go terribly wrong, or they just feel really fatigued. And it's how you approach that that makes a difference. Some athletes want to throw in the towel and just say, this is too hard, I can't do this. And other athletes go, hey, cop that on the chin, learn what I needed to fix the next one. And when they do fix it, it feels way, way better. So to acknowledge that and say, oh, I probably needed this little reminder just to, to go, I can't overcook it here, and, and do it now, months out from the race, that's— yeah, for me, that's absolutely brilliant. And I want to get back onto the race and the race goal. So, um, one of the coolest things you do is you just share your goals online and you just go, hey, I'm going for this, and, and everyone follow along. And you came out and said, I want to win my age group at Kona, and I want to be world age group champion. Talk to us about the thought process behind that. And that's a big goal.

Yeah. I'm not going to lie to you. I was umming and ahhing with putting this out online for a little while. I thought all different kinds of things like, should I just make it sub-9 or should I make it, you know, trying to podium and things like that. I always had the intention of putting something out there because it, you know, it worked online last time and I love to bring people along for the journey. Um, but I was just racking my brain as to like, what am I actually trying to do here? Like, do I just want to rinse and repeat the sub-10 loading series, or do I want to try something different? And I'm a big believer, like I've told you guys before, like I have a lot of belief in myself that I can do something. And when I set my mind to something, there's just, there's just no roadblock that's too big to bust through it, essentially. Um, so reach for the stars, and you know, if I landed on the moon and it ends up being a top 5 or podium this year and then we work towards it again, like, yeah, that would be, I guess, okay. But yeah, I think that setting goals that you know you can achieve doesn't lead to growth. So my philosophy is set a goal so far ahead of you and then do your best to get there and be willing to fail and be willing to, you know, share the whole process to it. It was scary. I'm not going to lie to you, posting that first video, I got a lot of I wouldn't say the words hate, but a lot of people messaging saying like, you are dreaming, man. Like, you've got absolutely no chance. I actually assumed that that's kind of what you guys were thinking as well. And I was like, oh shit, this is— maybe I've made a little bit of a mistake here. But as I got back into training and as I started to progress, like, I'm under no illusion that it is going to take so much work and it might not happen this year, it might not happen next year or years to come. But when I set my mind to something, I'll go and get it done. So yeah, that's the story behind it, I guess, and we'll see how long it takes.

I love it. Yeah, yeah, I love it. And I think just your self-awareness about the fact that you're not saying, you're not saying, I'm going to do this because it's easy or so doable. You're going, I want to do this because it's a super, super challenge. And so we touched on it before with, you know, our hesitancy with potentially the lack of time. But for us, when Alex said, look, I know it's, I know it's not a realistic goal, but I'm still putting it out there. Are you guys okay with that? And our response is sure. But again, I'd love to know, Dad, your mindset around, you know, when an athlete comes to you— and this happens to us all the time in different contexts, not just someone trying to win Kona— but hey, I want to achieve this, you know, what's your mindset and response?

Yeah, I always say to every athlete, you know, I don't think if you put a ceiling on yourself, then you're always creating a limitation. And, and, you know, the human nature is that the, the way of the world at the moment is to find something extreme and social media has made, made this even more prevalent, uh, in, in life. Is, you know, it's not okay to do a 5K anymore. It's not okay to do a 10K. It has to be a marathon or an ultra, or, uh, you know, run for— run to whoever's last running. I mean, there's all these weird concepts that are out there. It has to be bigger, better, faster. And, and for me, um, I definitely, uh, want every every human who's, who's trying to pursue some goals to not put limitations on themselves. So if someone comes to me with a goal that I think at the moment is out of their reach, I say that. I said that to Alex straight away, you know, the, the current level you're at, that's going to be a really big ask, and you've given us little time to do that. So, so you have to frame it, you know, there's no ceiling, but at the moment we're not near that, we're not near that goal. Um, but as I said, that was May, and, you know, let's see what happens at the end of July. And we're nearly at that point, and, and I must say, you know, it's tracking the way I like. And, um, and, you know, always be open-minded as a coach as well as an athlete, and, you know, you'll go a long way if you have that mindset. But to just say point blankly, you know, you're dreaming, is what, what most people would think, uh, where, you know, you're not long in the sport, you're pretty new to it, um, you haven't had a lot of running history, you've had very little bike history. And, you know, swimming is exactly the same. Yeah. But, you know, in, in, in the space of 2 or 3 years, you know, you would pinch yourself if you had tested yourself 3 years ago to where you're at now. You're just a different human being. Um, you know, you, you're, you're— what you were then is a, you know, a figment of your imagination where you would be now. You know, if you said— if someone said to you, this is what you'd be able to do in 3 years' time, you would have you'd have probably laughed yourself. Um, but, but what were you capable of doing now? So, so my answer to that is, George, people should not put ceilings on themselves. And, and that's not to make things ridiculous, but, but, you know, everything's achievable if you're willing to do the work. And it might not happen, as Alex has just said, this time, but if you want that goal, then, you know, we've— we have 7 world champions in our in our triathlon group. And probably not one of those guys and girls thought they could do that. And now they've achieved it. And, you know, it's like, well, wow, I just did that. And each one of those people who've done those world championship performances, you know, the after conversation has been very similar. You know, it's emotion, but it's, I never thought I could do this, and now I've done it. I'm so proud of that effort. And, you know, that's what that's what we're striving for as endurance athletes, is to just to push ourselves to a point where, you know, you're really proud of your performance. And whether that becomes the winner of the world title or, or a time that you're absolutely ecstatic with, you know, you should be pleased with that for the progress time you've had available. So, so, you know, for me, it's, it's always going to be no, there's no limit to what people can do.

So we're, we're sort of 8 or 10 weeks into the program, uh, things are tracking very well. I want to go through the numbers in a second, but Uh, yeah, from the start, Alex, where is your, where is your confidence sitting with your progression and, and how are you mentally feeling just, just so far? Just a bit of a check-in. And we're going to do another podcast before Kona and then a review of the race obviously when it comes, so it'll be a bit of a journey. But yeah, how you sitting right now?

Uh, I'm looking forward to the one just before Kona. Hopefully we get a good result as well and keen for that one after. In terms of right now, I mean, you guys know this, I'm absolutely chuffed with, with how I've progressed so far. I knew I'd get fitness back pretty quickly after having a bit of a stint out since Busso, but I didn't think it'd be this quick. And that's a credit to you boys. You certainly know your stuff and you're just amazing to be around. I love hearing from both of you. I get messages from Gerard saying, sorry for the long-winded voice note, which he does have a few, but I love getting them. I love sitting there on my couch listening to his 8-minute voice notes going through data. It's absolutely amazing. So yeah, I'm really chuffed with the progression. I just, I'm excited to see if we can just keep progressing because like Gerard said, like as an athlete who didn't have any guidance and sort of did all this by himself, like we don't really know where the ceiling is. So it's exciting to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing until we sort of find that that stability. That's not the right word, but yeah, you get what I'm trying to say. So yeah, I'm just almost a plateau, but yeah, that's always the word I was looking for. Thanks. Yeah, just really excited to see how we go. I'm excited to start racing again. Haven't raced since Busso in a triathlon, so got a few little ones coming up. But so far the progression has been awesome and the experience with you guys has been phenomenal. Really loving it.

Appreciate those words back. So We'll just go through some numbers, I think. So you tested— did your first 20-minute test with us as a benchmark in May. That was— was it 327 watts?

Is that right?

Uh, uh, yep. So, uh, 3—

was it lower? 3— was it—

was it 322? 322 for the first one?

No, that's not right. Yes, I think— is it? I think it was less than that, 316 or something.

Yep.

I don't know.

Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, about there. And then you, you had a pretty good jump straight away after the first one.

Let's just go through. So the 20-minute time was power was 322 and your FTP was 306.

Yes, that's right.

And then the next effort was 351 and FTP of 333, so it was 27-watt improvement.

Yeah, in one block, which again, we don't want to delude people and say that, you know, that that's just from training. You had that talent, you were starting low and coming back. We're really excited to see your third test just to keep applying back to that benchmark. But you just had a really great experience last weekend where you did a 60-minute, not even an all-out effort, but a 60-minute kind of time trial. And for those that understand the 20-minute FTP compared to threshold, you take 95% of your 20-minute number, it gives you predicted threshold. So your predicted threshold was 333 or so, or 336 maybe. And what we find in actual— yeah, yeah. And what we find in actual real life is that not many athletes can actually ride at 90% of that 20-minute number. You know, they fade out a lot. Because holding 90% of your— of that 20-minute number, they really fade over the 60 minutes. Most people are more like 87%, but you were right there. You just did the 60 minutes at 330 watts, you know, right at that number. So that just shows you've got that fitness and that strength and that 20-minute number is not an exaggeration. So that's great data to compare to. And then on top of that, you did a 10K run off the bike, which was minutes faster than your original 10K time trial with us fresh, you know. So that is just showing— what was it? It was a 36:13. Yeah, don't remember the second. Yeah, uh, compared to your— yeah, yeah, the first test was, was 4:04, is that right? 4:04 pace?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so that was you running, ticko fresh. Yeah, exactly. So 4:04 pace to, to 3:37 pace off the bike, you know. So, so that you see those numbers in a short amount of time, and what does that tell you?

Yeah, look, especially you got to put that in context, that, that, uh, 10K where he ran 3:37 pace, that was running off a 60-minute time trial, whereas the 40-minute 10K, which is the 4:04, was fresh. So, so they're quite different comparisons, you know. So I'm saying that he's probably faster than, you know, that, that, that 10K that he did. I would be saying you're more 35K, 35-minute 10K runner at the moment. And for those who don't know, he did a 30 a 30K just on the Gold Coast marathon weekend and ran 3:50 pace for the 30K. So that tells me that his prediction should be around that 35 minutes from our calculations. So yeah, the progression, I, you know, as you said, Jordan, we knew that he had talent, but to knock that much off, it's pretty much 5 minutes in the space of 8 weeks over 10Ks, you know, But let's have a look at what he's done in that period. You know, you're running 40, 50, 60, 70K weeks, and a lot of it wasn't any intensity. And as Alex said before, he'd never ridden at VO2 or threshold much, and that's where the, the running form came from. The cardiovascular system was never going to be a problem. It was the, the durability of your legs. And so we really did those long weeks of, of just long running and and without any intensity, you knock 5 minutes off your 10K. It doesn't matter— make sense, really, does it? You'd think you— in order to run faster, you'd have to train a lot of track stuff and a lot of intensity. And that's the beauty of, you know, understanding decades of coaching people as runners. You know, if you can get some intensity from another method such as swimming and riding, it transfers. The cardiovascular system doesn't know whether you're swim, riding, or running. Just knows you're huffing and puffing. And at the end of the day, that's not gonna be your limiter. It's gonna be, can your legs cope with, with the intensity of running? And we're not willing to put that risk out there with, you know, hard running sessions. And Alex is on board with that at the start. But, you know, to answer the question, yeah, I'm, I'm extremely excited about the improvement. Am I surprised? Probably that much of a jump, yes. Because it doesn't— you don't see that so quickly, but just shows the engine you've got. I think that's more important. It's exciting.

And Alex, take us through that 30K run because that was pretty special for you. It was almost— I don't know, I think it was almost a half marathon PB at the back end of the 30K run, as well as running the back 10K even faster than, you know, your OG 10K time trial. So running 30K at 3:50 pace, what kind of confidence does that give you?

Oh, massive confidence, to be honest with you. I remember a very specific conversation with your dad the day before saying, mate, this is, you know, it's a time trial and we're trying to run fast, but this is still a training session. Don't be silly. Start conservatively. And I started the run and first K was 3:59. I think the plan was to be somewhere around 4:12-ish, maybe even a little bit slower. And I was like, oh no, we've gone out too hard. And then I sort of just kept running and, you know, listening to my body. I feel like I'm pretty good with my, you know, being aware of where my body is and what I'm feeling. So I trusted myself. And then the next one was 3:59 again, and I was— I'd settled by this point. I was like, okay, I'm okay here. I'm definitely, you know, it's— this is going to be hard for the next 28K, but I'm in a good spot. And then just executed that run perfectly, got faster and faster and faster. I remember running into the wind, being like, this is going to be a little hard section here, find a little group, get in. I felt like I was properly racing, which was really exciting. And then yeah, turned, had a bit of a tailwind for the next sort of 10, 12 Ks and just, just felt so comfortable. Like I was getting to the point where it was hard, but I mean, a 30K run. But the splits just kept getting faster and faster. I think I was running like 3:42s or something by the end of it, thinking, how, how can I? I couldn't even run this on a 10K. I didn't think I could run that in a 10K, let alone at the back half of a backpack 10K of a 30K. So yeah, I just, I gained a lot of confidence from there and I knew that something was working and working well to be able to run like that. Whether I can back that up in the heat at Kona, I'm not sure, but I'm feeling a lot more confident about my run now. I remember speaking to Gerard as well, saying like, I want to turn my marathon into a bit of a weapon. I feel like I've got some bike legs and, you know, I can't see myself getting the front pack in the swim. So let's really focus on the run. And like you guys said, I haven't done— we haven't done a hell of a lot of fast running, but we still managed to turn it into, yeah, some form of weapon. And I hope that just keeps continuing to improve.

So for those that don't know, I mean, I'm sure anyone that's following your journey will just be very interested to like, what do you think, you know, time-wise at Kona, what can you run? And, and Dad, I'd love to know your prediction. A 3:50 is what, like a 2:45 to 2:40 8 marathon. Is that, is that right?

Yeah, it's around that 2:45 pace if you're fresh.

Yes.

Um, and as we know, uh, that's a, it's a 1:18 half marathon and, um, you know, 35-minute 10K. Um, that's the predictions. And he did run 18 minutes for that last 5K in the, in the 30K at the Gold Coast. So, you know, they were really good signs. You run the last 5K at 3:42 pace. You know, when you couldn't do that 8 weeks earlier, uh, in a fresh 10K. Um, so it's quite, quite astounding. But, you know, as we know, you can't run your PB fresh in a, in an Ironman, especially at Kona. And as many people have found out before, and, you know, we're talking, you know, Sam Laidlaw, um, Lucy Charles, Taylor Neill, Taylor Neill, you know, end up lying down on the, on the highway. Um, and has been Plenty more people before that have done that. Um, so we just have to respect the event. And so times become a little bit of a different, uh, beast at Kona, I think. Um, so what you can do at any other Ironman around the world, you really have to add a percentage to Kona's times. And a lot of people don't like to hear that.

I would love you to humor me though, Gerard. I would absolutely love it.

It's so hard to predict now because, as you said, you were just progressing that fast. I honestly couldn't even predict where you're going to be at the end of September, you know, start of October. But, but we can predict, yeah, we can predict the form.

We can predict where you are at July. That we can predict the form is going to be somewhere between a 3:07 and 3:14 marathon. Um, that's the current form, um, but But I'm not going to sit here and say that's the ceiling. Who knows? That'll bring a smile to Alex's face to know that, I think, what did you run last year? 3 at Busso? 3:15. 3:14. Yeah, 3:14. So you've dropped it by 7 minutes in that range in the space of 8 weeks, which is pretty impressive. So that's where we're at the moment. If everything continues along that journey, we would hope to be at the bottom end of that range. But yeah, again, I'm not gonna put a number on it, but that's where we're at right now. And that's the only thing you can go by is where your form is. When you ask me, you know, on the 24th of July, this is where your form is now. And that could be different in, you know, the 30th of August. And hopefully by October, whatever that day is, 16th, is it? Somewhere around there. We're talking some new numbers.

I was gonna ask Gerard though, is that, um, that 3:07 to 3:14, is that a Kona time that you think, or is that potentially like a fresh—

if I was doing Busso or something else, that's any other Ironman, that's where you are for any other Ironman. So we have to add a percentage on to, to that prediction at the moment.

Well, it's been a great insight so far. We, we want to keep having discussions with you, as we said, and, and, and share the journey. And, and if anyone listening has some questions questions for the next podcast, what they'd like to know of other parts of Alex's training, let us know. But Alex, I said at the start, one of the best things about you is you share all parts of the journey. We don't want this podcast episode just to pretend that everything's sunshine and rainbows. Your improvement has been fantastic, but it's definitely not linear, you know. And, and every day you're kind of waking up going, geez, I'm getting tired. And that's Ironman training at the level that you're doing it, the amount of hours you're doing. Every day is a kind of new challenge because we are pushing you probably more than most age groupers because you have the ability to, um, but share us a bit of the roller coaster journey that you, you've had and some of the highs and lows already on this journey that you've been having to, to work through.

Oh, uh, there's certainly been a few lows lately. Um, for the first maybe 7, 8 weeks, I really did feel invincible, guys. I think you sort of like saw this. I just, every session I was doing well and recovering really well and sleep was great and, you know, everything was going hunky-dory. But yeah, there's definitely been in the last 2 weeks just some real challenges training-wise as well as, you know, outside of training. And it's hard, you know, people will say to me like, oh, you know, you can fit your training in around your work and, you know, you live an amazing life. And I do. Like, I'm blessed. I feel so lucky to live the life that I live. But like any other human being out there, there are tough things going on in my life and things that I don't always share on social media. And yeah, when you mix— when it's like a concoction of some of those things happening alongside 20, 25-hour weeks, there's times where you just fall off a cliff a little bit. And yeah, I guess having you guys there and, you know, having a really close circle of friends and family that, you know, you can lean on in those times is super important. But that's all part of the journey. And, you know, I think sharing it online is, is super rewarding in the sense that I get messages from people saying that, you know, they're in the same boat or I've inspired them in some way and they're getting out for a run today because of it. So that's the whole reason we do it. You know, like this is a challenge that I've set myself, but the real reason behind it is so that, you know, we, everyone, everyone lifts each other up. That's my whole philosophy.

I love that answer. Yeah, yeah, no, it really does. And I think it's such a great reminder for everyone that especially with Ironman training, it's just the most common pattern we see is that everything almost is constantly on a knife edge. And if you just tip over a little bit, it feels like everything else in the week falls apart. You know, everything's just— it's almost like a house of cards. You know, the volume is creating such a fragile system of your life. No, I'm not just talking about your training, but you're kind of you know, if you have a bad night's sleep or if you get— catch like a bit of a cold from someone, or if just something tips you over, then the house of cards feels like it's falling over. It's not always the case, but it just feels like that mentally. It just kind of— everything can crumble and you have a really low day or two. And sometimes with just a bit of rest and refueling and a couple of easy days, you come out of it and you go, oh, I was not myself for the last few days. But, but we just noticed that with, with many age groupers across Ironman training. So I think that's an important reminder for everyone that, that you're not alone in that. And, and it's just the nature of this beast, which is it's quite an unnatural event.

Yes, definitely.

So, uh, I hope you've enjoyed this episode and, and getting into the mindset of Alex. And if you want to follow along the journey, he's, he's posting all about his training and everything online. But we'd love to know if you've got any specific questions you'd like us to discuss next time, um, or anything we'd like to uncover in more detail, then please let us know. But, uh, Alex, yeah, we're pumped that you've joined TriVelo and you're really embracing the TriVelo method. Which we love. And, and what a, what a start it's been. We're absolutely pumped for you, and we, we can't wait for the next check-in in another couple of months.

Absolutely loved it, guys. I'm, I'm super grateful to be a part of this and, uh, for all your help. It's been amazing. And, uh, let's, uh, let's go and win Kona at some stage.

If you'd like to experience the TriVelo Method at any point, uh, just like Alex, and, and get this level of coaching in detail, you can go to travelocoaching.com.au and apply to get coached there. Thanks very much for listening as always. We'll see you in the next episode.