Running’s Most Insane World Record Was Just Broken (Coaches React)

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Yeah, it was, uh, really fantastic. I have not been to Colorado and I've always wanted to. It's been a bit of a bucket list for me, and, uh, one of my really great friends from back in the 1980s who I used to race against, uh, Greg Brown, 40 years later we would be riding side by side in another country. Um, having a good old chat and, and riding at 2,800 meters above sea level, um, and really out of breath and struggling like a couple of old riders. Um, so it was great to catch up with him. And, uh, I had a really interesting period, uh, altitude for 7 days, um, a place called Crested Butte, which is a bit of a ski resort. It's not known for its road riding. There's not a lot of long climbs there, but it's a great mountain bike area and road— uh, sorry, and gravel bike region. So if I was going to go there again, I'd take my mountain bike, and there's some great trails there. But for road riding, it's pretty flat. That sounds ridiculous when you're at 2,800 meters, but there's about 50 or 60 kilometers both directions just at 2,800 meters on flat roads. Um, and all the ski lifts are on hills that have no roads on them, and they go up to 3,400 meters. So it kind of is a flat plain, and then you've got your ski lifts on that area. So you're basically living at 2,800 meters the whole week. And I didn't do much training there, but, uh, just rode my bike a little bit and had some fun and came home. And, um, I was always interested to see what it was like on my first ride, uh, when I arrived home. So I've, I've been doing Alpe d'Huez on Zwift for probably, I don't know, over 50, 60 times, uh, over the last 10 years. So I've got a lot of data and I I just had a, I rode Alpe du Zwift exactly the same way as I did 2 weeks before I went away and I was 4 minutes quicker and I rode the same, uh, feeling, uh, RPE. I was looking at my numbers and I felt like all the numbers I was riding, 230, 240 watts felt really easy. So, um, I started pushing it a little bit more, but the feel I had was what I'd been riding before. And, and I was 4 minutes quicker after only being at altitude for 7 days. I was really shocked. I know altitude has an impact, but to experience it firsthand was, was quite shocking actually, in a good way. Um, and it really reemphasized to me how the value of altitude. And I, and I, as I said, I really didn't train that much. It was just living at that height. Um, and when, uh, Andy, my wife and I were walking, there's a fair few rises. I was regularly out of breath. Um, just walking. So, um, Greg and I were laughing how pathetic we were riding, um, at this altitude. We were puffing and, um, you know, like we're riding intensity. We weren't. We were riding basic recovery zone 2 rides. That's, that's about all I could muster really at that height.

It's the classic, you know, you're living super high. Living at 2,800 meters is super, super high. You know, we've climbed a climb to 2,800 meters, uh, but you're only there for a very short period. But to live there, I was fascinated by that because it's a very, uh, small anecdotal, um, review of one, but the fact that you've ridden this climb so often, it's a great example for athletes about, you know, it's always good to compare, uh, a zone 2 to 3, maybe zone 4 effort is what you normally do that climb in. But for you, it's just, it was quite surprising. It is your best 60-minute, um, power and time of that climb, including any time trials you've done. Um, which says a little bit about how you just haven't felt like you've been time trialing that well this year, but it's, but for it not to be a, a subthreshold or threshold effort for 2026, it still be your best kind of 60-minute performance, I think says a lot.

Uh, Yeah, very strange, isn't it? Uh, you know, for just for 2026 we're talking here. Um, um, and as it was, it was only a zone 2 subthreshold, zone 3 session, but I was going to feel and, and, and, and looking at my heart rate as well. And, and that was pretty much the same as it was for, you know, any of the other rides I've done, except I was 20 or 30 watts lower in those other rides. And, and, you know, everything was same, same bike. Um, yeah. Um, you know, pretty much, uh, same time of day, all that sort of stuff. It was— there was nothing different. I was actually just got off a plane, so I was quite tired. So yeah, I would have thought that I would have ridden worse. So yeah, um, so yeah, it's an interesting one. I want to share that with people to, you know, we— you very much hear in the news a lot that, you know, altitude training is a really big game changer. And, and, you know, this is just one example of of that. And, it'd be interesting to see. We've got a race on our Zwift, Trofeo Zwift Racing tonight, which, it'll be interesting to see how I feel because I know the numbers there in those races quite well. And, yeah, I'm very interested to see how I feel tonight.

I was skeptical to you straight away. I said, I said, Dad, 1 week at altitude is not going to make a difference. But I ended up looking into it a bit and, and it is the absolute minimum you'd require for, for a lot of structural changes. But a lot of the research actually does point to that every day you spend at that height, your, your hemoglobin levels are changing and, and plasma volume levels are changing daily. And, and it, it probably wouldn't equate, equate to a 4-minute, you know, which is almost like a 7 or 8% improvement, you'd think. But, but then obviously we have to think about other factors of, of, you know, what about the placebo effect of you knowing you just lived at altitude for, for 7 to 9 days or whatever it was, uh, and coming home and wondering, oh, is this gonna help me? Like, I'm sure that had an impact of, of your RPE. And, uh, did you, did you take your weight before the trip and after? Was there any weight change?

I did. I did check my weight and I came home heavier.

Oh geez, that's a surprise.

It is.

So, yeah. Um, but, and then nothing against the American diet, but, uh, no, there's something against it. There's a lot of, a lot of big portions and cheese.

You were just, you were just there. Did you come home heavier?

I didn't because I made the mistake in America where if you just go off their portions and eat everything that they're serving, you will put on weight. Uh, but I was very particular with my choices and, and because you, you will order a sandwich or, or a burrito or a bowl or something, and it's just double the size of what I normally give myself, you know, at home. So you've just gotta be selective and, and really try to pick your restaurants and that kind of thing. But yeah, the, the altitude experiment is interesting. I wonder if you spent, you know, a full month just living there, you weren't even training hard, you know, what the actual meaningful impact would be.

Yep. And look, also, Gerard, don't forget most of the altitude training camps aren't that high. They're, they're somewhere around 1,800 to 2,400 pretty much where all the World Tour, uh, cycling teams go and a lot of the triathlon athletes. Um, yeah, the Norwegians are well known, but they don't go to 2,800 and live. Um, um, so, because they probably couldn't train properly if they were that high. So, well, definitely, it was really difficult to, to ride anything but, uh, subthreshold or, or zone 2.

So, yeah. Um, interesting self-experiment. I, I would guess that if you're, uh, if you are riding better tonight, it's I would point towards more of a combination of placebo than, than the 7 to 9 days altitude, but I have no doubt it also made some sort of minor structural difference.

So yeah, I don't mind placebo. It's a really, it's a really good, uh, um, performance enhancer. Um, and if you believe something, it shows you the power of the mind. You can do whatever you like. And I've said that many times, you know, I don't care what the advantage you get. If you think, if you think you're doing well and That proves that you did well. Well, do that again.

It's also, who cares? You know, the fact is you rode 56 minutes for a climb that you haven't done for over a year for the same heart rate and perceived exertion. So that's, you take that with anything. So, ah, great experiment. Another experiment that happened was, uh, Josh Kerr announced in March that he's going for the mile world record. This world record had stood from Hicham El Guerrouj from 1999, and from between 1999 and 2023, no one got close to it. The world record is 3:43:12. No one even ran under 3:44 for 24 years. You know, that's how dominant that, that, um, record was. And then in 2023, Jakob Ingebrigtsen and Gerard Donnelly ran an incredible mile when Ingebrigtsen was in his absolute, absolute peak form. They both broke 3:44, but they were still half a second away from, uh, the record. And that's 24 years of, of the most insane developments we've had in running. Modern sports science advancements, faster tracks, faster shoes, better nutrition, just better, uh, training understanding. And still couldn't break his record.

And yes, and pacers, we have pacers. So if you can't do it with pacer, like, you know, El Guerrouj didn't have a pacer.

No, he ran, he ran from the front basically for the last, he was racing and then he ran most of it from the front. So, um, so that just shows how good the record was. And look, there's, there's some question marks over El Guerrouj in the '90s and endurance sport in the '90s was, was a bit of the Wild West. And so, you you know, he was my hero growing up as a, as a kid, but so was Lance Armstrong. I'm not by any way saying, um, that means anything. Uh, I'm just pointing to the fact that, uh, we don't know, you know, and it will always be a mystery, and, and we just take it as it is. Um, regardless, that 1999 performance was so exceptional that it hasn't been touched. And, um, and Josh Kerr, who had a PB of just 3:45.5, announced in March that he's going for the world record. And to be honest, most of the running community laughed at him, and and myself included had a huge doubt. I just said, I just don't see how that's possible. He'd have to run his 1500 PB. His 1500 PB isn't even fast enough to, to get the mile world record, and he can't do it for 1500. Where does he think he's going to get that extra time from? But he is— he went on this epic, epic journey of being hyper-focused on this one goal, super specialized towards this one goal. He felt with his team, with a bit of a faster suit like all these projects have done, um, a new shoe that, uh, that could help get, get some time gains. And then with pure focus, um, he really— when we go through the facts in a second about what he did for this preparation, he is the epitome of leaving no stone unturned, um, in every single aspect, not just physical but mental, uh, to get this work, this, this, this record. And Dad, for me, this is one of the greatest runs, uh, I've ever seen. And we feel so lucky that two of these runs have happened this year, you know, the Breaking2 Marathon which just still blows my mind. I have not gotten over that. And now breaking this world record of 10— the only one left in middle distance running for men's is the, is the 1500 world record, which is also El Guerrouj at 3:26, and no one sort of got close to that.

Yeah, look, when you and I first, uh, heard and watched him say that that's what his goal was, look, I was trying to think logically. Uh, I looked at his times, um, and I just thought, wow, it's— he has to improve so much, you know, it's It's— what was it for? Is it nearly 4 seconds?

No, 3 seconds. He's almost improved like 2.8 seconds or something.

Yeah, sorry, 3 seconds. So yeah, 3 seconds at that level, it's just insane. It is an elite level. So I was thinking, well, what does he have to do here? And you and I are thinking, well, it's so gutsy to come out and say this is what I want to do and tell the world and put yourself on the line. I think that's, that's fantastic. I, I just love his attitude. I You know, he's not, he's not afraid of what people say about him. I love that. Um, if we could all live a little bit like that, cause we, you know, I'm the same. I worry what people think about me and, and he has this really, I don't care what people think about me. This is what I want to do. And I'm going to, I'm going to go, you know, as hard as I can. And if I fail, so what? I had a go. And I, I think that's absolutely brilliant. I, I I wish, I wish I could be as gutsy as that and be as brazen and, and, uh, say this is what I'm going to do next. And, um, but yeah, you know, each to their own. And, and I think maybe that's what makes him a better runner, is if he's forced to, you know, to back up his words with actions. And, and that's maybe what he's doing to him too. But gee, what a— oh, when I watched it, it was— the hairs on my arms were standing up. It was like How hard is this guy running? And he just, he just decimated the field by himself. Um, and like, there were some good runners in that field.

Magus is the third fastest or fourth fastest miler of all time with a better PB.

He would have been 80 meters behind him, wouldn't he?

And not that far. It did look like the elastic band snap. He's still running, he still ran a 3:44 high, I think. So, so yeah, still within 2 seconds, but it looks like a lot bigger.

That's 20 meters. Sorry, I've got that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was about that. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but just on the camera, it looked like he was halfway down the straight.

Yeah, um, yeah, maybe I think I've got that right, but regardless. Yeah, yeah.

So, so I just love this whole thing. And, and look, to me, Kipchoge broke 2 hours. I don't care whether you've got pacers or, you know, he's still— he still ran 2 hours physically under 2 hours. And, and, you know, I don't know what the difference is between having pacers like the Nike experiment or having pacers in a marathon. They're both pacers. Yeah, I just, I don't understand. The pacers in a marathon absolutely don't go the whole way. That's the difference. You had in Kipchoge's experiment, they came in and swapped out. So he had pacers all the way to the finish. So that is the only difference I can see, but you still got to run the run.

Yeah, you do. And he did it. He was the first human to physically run that fast regardless of what was around him. And but he had, you know, he had the car in front, which we know makes a big difference for the speed they're running. They're running 21 kilometers an hour, and I think anything over 15 or 16, the drafting effect is quite, um, significant. So look back on Josh. I want to go through some of the facts of, of, of, you know, what he did. And, and when he announced the project, he went on a bunch of podcasts, which he doesn't do that many interviews, and he kind of did the rounds for some publicity to say what his plan was. And he announced he went through his current training week, and this was the most shocking to me back then. I think I might have talked about it on the podcast, but his training split for the week is so, so surprising. He's the opposite of, of his arch rival Jakob Ingebrigtsen, and he's the opposite of most running running programs at the moment. He's totally about efficiency and not super high volume. So he's, he's really, I think it's 60 or 60 miles a week, kind of around that mark, 60 or 70, which look, so the average person is quite high, but to elite runners nowadays, you know, the marathon guys breaking 2 are doing 200-kilometer weeks, 150-mile weeks. Um, yes, his event is, is 3 minutes, 42 seconds. So it makes sense it's less mileage, but it's, it's half as much as Jakob Ingebrigtsen, for example. And, and this quote, I don't do crazy workouts or crazy mileage. I just don't miss days. It's my biggest weapon. I'll break any athlete down with how consistent I am. And it's just a classic.

Yeah, it's, uh, it's what we, we really try to profess as well, is consistency is king. And he epitomizes this. And, and don't forget though, he changed his format for this particular event. He's got a lot of fitness in his bank. Um, he's got years and decades of, of, you know, lots of really good endurance aerobic fitness. And so for him to— it's almost like if you took someone's training year and said, you know, we're going to do some, some preparation work and then some build and then some finishing, uh, finishing off, uh, efforts to, to peak you for this performance. So, so he's really— look, you could say, look, he's used the last 2 or 3 years as, as his, his really hard training blocks, and then he's fine-tune this, this actual goal that he's done. So I think it's really clever, clever, uh, coaching and, um, and really smart thinking and, uh, just doing, doing enough to keep him fresh so they can actually run fast. And boy, did he run fast.

Yeah, and I, I think his team has done a great job of, of iterating his, his schedule over the years to finally find this perfect formula. And they've just done such a great job of, okay, this is working, this is not working. He's still good. He did get injured last year, so it's not like it's perfect. Um, but they just figured no major mileage, no hero workouts. Um, one fast session a week, which I was so shocked at for a track athlete, but he also does, uh, a lot of his easy runs, he does strides, you know, so on top of only one track session a week. Um, a day off before his long run, you know, for me, that's, that was surprising as well because that kind of freshens you up after your, your big hard track session to make sure you don't risk injuring yourself the day after, which would be the most risk point for him. And then when he gets to his long run where he does a bit of tempo in there, he does that a bit faster. Um, he's a bit fresher as well. Um, they really track his sleep, HRV, and heart rate very, very tightly. And he was doing bloods every few weeks. He was, he, he, they, um, blocked off his house to be an altitude house. So he was living at altitude. Um, and then they were tracking his bloods, um, to make sure he wasn't pushing himself into the red zone at all. And he really spoke about the fact that they were doing that so frequently that if something slightly went off, they just turned it down. They just turned the altitude off, just let him have a couple of days to recover, then he's back on track. And so they just weren't risking anything crazy. Uh, he got a mental performance coach who was helping him meditate in the morning and focus on his goal and, and wind down at the evening so that he could, uh, sleep really well. Um, and, and leading into the race with that pressure, he made sure he ticked that off, that he wasn't going to let the pressure get to him, and he was in his flow state. And to me, that is, uh, pretty incredible as well. There's, yeah, so much in this. And, and something else that he said that really stood out to me was he just said, after he broke the record, he said people still aren't getting that's not about the workout. It's about the recovery and backing up. He said people still aren't getting it. They don't— I'm not— I'm doing great sessions, but I'm more focused on can I do this session and can I run again the next day and can I back it up again in 2 days? You know, it's, it's not about those, those training sessions itself. It's a different way of saying it's not about hero sessions, but he's going, you want to train and find, get close to your line, but you don't even really want to, want to be going close enough that you're risking not being able to back up. That's his whole point, he said, and everyone's not getting that.

Yeah, look, you got to be careful the wording you use, and I think that's where people get lost. They want to hear what they want to hear, and, and I think at the end of the day, it is about the training session, which is the opposite to what you just said. It's about doing the training session the right way.

Yeah.

Um, and, you know, trying to smash yourself every one of those high-intensity training sessions, that, that's probably not what what he's sort of professing. He's saying, I'm going to do the training session as hard as I can that'll still allow me to do the next training session. So I'll find my tipping point. And, you know, it doesn't mean he's going to go into those training sessions and just cruise through them. Yes, that's, that's not his point. And so you can take it— people go the opposite. Well, so I don't run hard anymore, you know. This is the thing that's so intriguing to me. Social media has got a lot to say about this. And whatever, what, you know, you can just hear people saying, do this, do that, you shouldn't do zone 2, you should do zone 2, do zone 2 the wrong way, do high intensity. You've got all these things being thrown at you.

Yeah, don't run fast, run fast.

Yeah, so, so, you know, listen to this podcast, you're saying, well, what did he run hard or did he run easy in those sessions? So yes, the sessions are not what it's all cracked up to be, but they are— you've got to be able to push yourself as, as well as you can but still be able to back up, um, in, in 3, 3 days' time and then in 8 days' time. And if you do something that's a absolutely magnificent training session, but it took so much out of you that in 2 weeks' time you're still struggling. People might laugh at that, but, but that can have such an impact on you that you actually go to the well so deep, you know. And that should only happen on race day, that you, you empty the tank that much. And the training sessions are— they, they should be called preparation sessions for your, your main event. And so you're trying to prepare yourself. Whatever happens on race day, you're trying to prepare yourself. Get your body in tune so that it can cope with the demands of that race. And so all the time in those training sessions, you're trying to push yourself to a point where it's not tipping over the edge. And, and that's the difference between what you just said before and actually getting that training session right. And then really being active, active recoverer, doing all the things properly, you know. So go— it's easy to just stay up an extra hour and a half or extra half hour or extra hour. But it takes a bit of discipline to actually say, no, I'm not going to procrastinate anymore. I'm single-minded. I'm going to bed now and I'm going to get that 8 to 10 hours sleep. For me, I've been tracking HRV, I don't know, for 7 years. And the correlation between me going to bed late and a shocking HRV in the morning is they meet. Every time I have a great sleep where it's long, my HRV goes up. And it's just so damn obvious to me, but I still make the mistake of procrastinating or do a bit more of this or a bit more of that. And then before I know it, it's 11 o'clock, which is no good when you're getting up at 6 o'clock. So he's doing all of those things well. And I just want everybody to hear that it's easy to say that, but it's really hard to put into action, to actually go to bed when you should be and get the good deep sleep. And that's part of it. That's the biggest part of recovery that I could actually tell people. You know, and I don't do it well myself. Yeah. So I'm not saying, you know, do what I say, it's do what I do. So I'm saying do what I say. It's, uh, it's, it's an easy one as a coach. Yeah. Do as I say, just because it doesn't matter that I don't do it. But, um, but you know, I know, I know that's what I should be doing. Yeah. But at the end of the day, I think he's doing that very well. Yeah.

And I want to, I want to, um, expand on that a little bit because it's, it's a classic cliché, no hero workouts, you know. Um, stack weeks, not workouts, is the, is the saying. But if we say no hero workouts, I want to broaden that out to no hero weeks either. And athletes will suddenly get a surge of motivation and they just go, I'm doing a monster week this week, and they line up. Here's my Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday session going really hard, and I'm doing my extra zone 2 on, on Wednesday, Friday, Sunday. I'm doing 2 gym sessions this week. I'm getting 11 sessions in and 16 hours. And, and that's not the idea either. You know, you get super motivated and none of those individual sessions seem like a hero session. You're like, oh, I'm not overdoing it anywhere. But the accumulated week is a hero week. And it's, it's about— it's the same principle. It's not about one hero week because then you'll be in a hole the week after or two weeks after. It's, it's backing out week after week. So what can I do this week that I can realistically replicate week on week, and ideally for 12 weeks in a row, 16 weeks in a row? And, and that's a big one as well to not fall into the trap of.

You and I absolutely get frightened when we see an athlete tell us they're going on holidays and they are so motivated to train the house down. And, and, and you and I are saying, that's brilliant. We love it that you've got this 2 or 3 week period where you're on holidays and you've got no restrictions. But we're always cautious, aren't we? We're saying, you know, alternate your days so that have some fun with your mates and ride or run or swim or do something with high intensity, but the next day back it off and then go again. That, you know, alternate every day. I'm trying to make it so that people can get through this magnificent training block, training camp, and not have another 3 weeks where they're just exhausted because they're back at work, etc. And I think, I think that's the thing that you and I are almost afraid of, because we've seen it so many times with, with athletes who just get carried away. And, and it's fun while you're there, it's absolutely a ball while you're, you know, you're training with your mates every day. Every day is 7 days or 12 days of racing each other. That's great if you're conditioned for that and you've been doing that for a long period of time. You know, people say to me, all the other guys do it, why can't I do it? And I say, well, if you've been training or riding your bike or being a triathlete for as long as those guys have, then you possibly could do that. But it's, you know, you've got to find out where your level is and you're still, You know, you'll get a really good adaptation if you just calm your jets a bit and, and, you know, be conscious that, you know, everything you do to yourself has consequences. And if you overdo it, you pay the penalty. And, and that, what does that do? It destroys the consistency that Josh is talking about.

Yeah, exactly right. And the last piece of the puzzle that I want to touch on is he did all the work, his team thought he was progressing well, and then the last key to the puzzle was, what did he do, Dad? He did a time trial. He, he tested himself 10 days out and, and I'll be honest, this whole campaign I was tracking his vlogs, watching his progress. Very curious. Uh, I, if you asked me every week leading up to the last 2 weeks, is he going to do it? I would say no, he's not going to do it. Uh, and most, most of the running community thought that as well. Um, huge respect for Josh. He does back up his talk a lot. And so I was thinking, what's he going to do here? How's he going to run this? How close is he going to get? Um, and you know, the example is when him and Jakob were having their huge rivalry 2023-2024 leading into the Paris 1500 Olympic Games. Um, no one thought he could beat Jakob. He kept saying in the media, I am better than him, I will beat him, and he backed it up. He did. In the final, he beat Jakob Ingebrigtsen. The only problem was they both didn't account for Cole Hocker coming up inside, and they both lost to him. Yeah, they were looking at each other and lost to Cole Hocker, but he did back up his words. So So you never underestimate, underestimate an athlete like Josh Kerr. Um, but I, I would've bet against him. And then 10 days out, he drops his time trial and he decided to do 1200 meters to see what form he was in. And he was going for sub 2:45, uh, to say, okay, if I can get through 1200 under 2:45, I think I can hang on for the last 400 and, and, and break the record. And he comes out the day before the race and, and, and releases his time and it was a 2:42.6. And not only that, it was comfortable. And that's the key point. It's not just about the time that you do in training, it's about how it feels. It's about, you know, how did you measure your effort? How did you execute? Was that really hard? Were you on your limit? Could you keep running? And he just, he, he kind of arrogantly finished the rep, the 1200-meter time trial, looked at the camera and said, you think I can't run a 60-second 400 right now? Because that's all he'd have to run to break the record. He goes, I'm barely breathing. And I just went, he's, that's it. He's going to break it tomorrow. You know, that's, that's him done.

It's a, it's a really great story, isn't it? And it shows you the value, uh, for your mindset that you've got so much confidence now from one training session. And one training session didn't make that happen. It was all the training sessions he did before. And by the way, he was getting feedback from all the training sessions he was doing. They were all time trials. Every training session he's doing, whether he's doing 4x2k reps or, or, you know, 4x1k reps or whatever sessions he was doing, 500s, 400s. He's getting this feedback, and that's— training sessions are part of that. You're getting feedback of where your form is. But to put yourself on the line and do a time trial, you know, to give yourself some real— am I on track or not? And, and, you know, the confidence would have been a little bit down had he run a 2:44 or 2:45.

Yeah, 2:47.

Yeah. And, and then he would have realistic expectations of what's about to happen next. But imagine the feeling that day when he's run 2:42+. He would just, from that one session, he would go into this next race with, with this mindset of, I can actually absolutely do this. There is no question in my mind. And, you know, without doing that session and without doing all the previous sessions, obviously it's not just about one session, but one session really confirmed, put perspective into his preparation. And, and that's what we confess a lot of the time is, you know, going into a main race, you have to have done some sort of trial to find out where your current form is. And, and it's not about how, you know, how, how good a number you got. That actually really helps is how you got that number, how you executed it. Um, you know, they're the things that you're practicing. You're practicing, like I said before, what's going to happen on race day. And, and to give yourself as many opportunities to do that before the main thing That's what we tell our athletes all the time. That's why, that's why we're so adamant that, that, you know, the race you're doing is a time trial. So why would you shy away from that in any training session you're doing? And if I gave you a 5 by 5 session, it's 5 by 5 minute time trials. That's what you're doing. You're practicing that. So when we come to do a 60-minute effort, we're practicing what our efforts are over 60 minutes. And that's what critical power is. You know, the power you do over a certain time. That's what the term critical power means.

Yeah.

What's your best 10-minute? What's your best 5-minute? What's your best 1-minute? What's your best 20-minute? What's your best 1-hour? What's your best 30 minutes? What's your best 90K? They're all things that you should be practicing and getting knowledge and an understanding of where your, where your numbers are at. And that helps you understand how does it feel to be riding 60 minutes or running, running a 1-mile or 1500. What does it feel like against this pace? So you know, looking at how fast you're running, what the feel is, and what the pace is to get that, that, you know, on a bike, what speed, what's your average speed for a 40K time trial? And what does it feel like to do that? And what is the actual power that allowed you to do that? They're the 3 things, you know, the speed you ride at, the number that gets you that power number that gets you that, and what was the feeling like? You know, if you should know what 300 watts feels like, you should know what 240 watts feels like. It's not just power, it's just not the average speed, it's just not feel. You have to have all of the metrics available to you to make better decisions. And, and I'm, I'm kind of a little bit bewildered on, um, on social media where people are just pushing one and, and you shouldn't be doing the others. Well, you should be doing them all, and everything that you can have at your disposal is going to help you be a better athlete. So don't get caught up in this one's better than the other. They're all really good, valuable things to use to make you a better athlete. Yeah. So let's just get, get away from that. This session's better than that session. Wait, that's a waste of time. Yes. This test session's a waste of time. Everything contributes to your end goal. And, and for you to, to eliminate some of those sessions that someone on social media has told you to, I think you're making a You know, you're making a bit of a mistake there and you should be— we always say there's not one thing that made Josh Kerr— there wasn't one session that made him, uh, be this athlete that now holds the world record for the mile. It's about 15 things that he did well, you know. One of them happened to be a time trial before the race, you know. One of them was checking his HRV. One of them was doing the training session. So all these things contribute to the end result. So think a little bit more openly, everybody, and, and embrace the things that are gonna make you a better athlete. If, if I could scientifically prove to you one fact, you are gonna be more on board with it. If I've given you really good evidence and, and you are gonna more likely to, to, to embrace that training session. Um, we'll do this training session today. We'll do these VO2 efforts because we know that builds your engine. We know that makes you able to lift your ability to ride your bike faster or run faster. So if you do these VO2 sets in a training block, this is the outcome. If you do threshold efforts, you know, that, that, that measures a different physiological adaptation than VO2. So, but we're not just going to do solely VO2. We're going to do some threshold sessions in our training. We're also going to do some subthreshold. We're also going to do some tempo. We're also going to do some recovery. As long as you understand what the purpose are of all of those different training sessions, then you're more likely to embrace that program and you're probably going to be a better athlete than you were if you, if you refused to do VO2 because you didn't think, and no one had explained to you the value of them. Um, and I think, I think we are a society that really asks questions as to why am I doing this? We should keep doing that, by the way. We should ask you, you, the more you understand why you do something, the better you'll be at it. And, and I think I think there's a lot of lessons in this, you know, using this, this mile, uh, to, to give lessons about, um, not having hero sessions, not doing too much too soon, you know, spreading your load and, and being single-minded and doing things well. So, so yeah, it's a lot of information. I know.

Yeah, we love it when an athlete asks us, why am I doing this VO2 work now? Why am I focusing on that? Or why am I doing an FTP test? And then we explain our reasons, and a majority of athletes are on board, and they go, oh, That makes sense, actually. I'm, I'm really happy to do that. And, and, you know, for a new athlete coming on board, it's like, well, we have no idea where your fitness is right now and you've got no TrainingPeaks history. No, you haven't really trained to power before. So it's a great way to start as an example. And my favorite thing that you say is, is, you know, FTP test is a bit of a taboo word for, for some people. A lot of people embrace it. Some people don't. And, and you kind of use that example. You always say 20-minute FTP test, 5-minute FTP test, 40/20s, you know, your 40-second FTP test. You're kind of, um, being a bit exaggerated to say to everyone, I want you to practice your execution and show me what number you can hold and execute well over the set time that we prescribe. And, and, you know, 40/20s all the way to 5x5 to a 20-minute effort to a 60-minute to 90K, like you described before. It's about that practice. And we, 40/20s, for example, we see so often someone's range is, is 280 to 300 watts. And yeah, they might, they might be hitting 290 for each effort, but they're doing 10 seconds at 450. And then fading throughout the effort down to 240, you know, and that's a perfect example of, hey, you, you're kind of getting there, but here's where you can get some great improvement. And over a 5-minute effort, it's a time trial, a 5-minute time trial. Can you start out at the right wattage and then hold that for the 5 minutes and practice even riding, as an example? And, and look, you spoke about 3 main metrics being, you know, if you're outdoors, speed versus power, um, versus, you know, how you're feeling. Um, and they are the main ones that, you know, produce the best outcome. But we look at everything, you know, you're looking at your heart rate compared to that. How does my RPE feel compared to what my heart rate's showing? Um, how, what's my cadence? Am I grinding out here? Do I need to, you know, work on my cadence? All these, uh, how am I executing against the headwind and tailwind if I'm, if I'm outdoors or on a velodrome? You know, all these factors are, are getting you a more accomplished rider. And, and on that lap point, the last thing I wanted to say is, is the one argument I see against, you know, any testing, FTP testing, a 60-minute test is it's not the distance, so it's not specific enough. You know, and if you apply that same argument to Josh Kerr here, people would say, well, what's the point of doing a 1200 time trial? You know, it's not the mile. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't actually indicate how well he's going to do in the mile. And it's, it's a, it's such a moot point for me. I think it's, it's why is he going to do a mile, um, uh, test in training 10 days out? You know, you can— a 1200 is a perfect— gave him exactly what he wanted, you know, showed him what pace he's trying to hit. Doesn't require a max effort for him to do the full mile. Um, and, and it's a great example of why you don't have to do the full distance. You know, we don't get our guys to just do 90K time trials. To prepare for, the 70.3. We do, do a lot of them, but we couldn't just week in, week out, only test that. We want to test their 20 minutes, test their 60 minutes, and see how it's all combining it and give the full picture of the athlete.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. And, it's probably enough said on that. It's, it's something that we are passionate about and, and it's why our athletes are so successful. It's because they've got the understanding that every metric contributes. And as long as, as long as you're getting that message across, then I don't think you can go wrong.

What's a better result, you think? Breaking the mile world record or the 2-hour marathon barrier being broken in a race?

I, when I was growing up reading about Roger Bannister breaking the 4-minute mile, that was probably the biggest thing you could think of in athletics. And I think the 2-hour marathon is, is kind of in that. It's like a raw number, isn't it? 4 minutes, 2 hours.

Yeah.

But 3:43.

One, two.

Doesn't have the same ring, does it? Um, you know, I break— I'm going to break the 3:43 mile record. Well, it is a record that's been— I think the thing that— I think the thing that stood out about this was that it had been held for so long. And, um, you know, records come and go, and they're outstanding. Well, world records. But when, when one is for so long, I think that, that gives it more kudos. Um, and look, the marathon record's been coming down, coming down, and there've been so many guys running 2 hours 2 hours and 30 seconds, 2 hours and 48, 2 hours and 1 minute and 10 seconds. Um, and you know, you could say the same about the mile, you know, it just keeps dropping, dropping, dropping. But there's something about 2 hours, there's a line in the sand. There's something about the 4-minute mile, which was a line in the sand as well. Um, so to answer that question, boy, I, I think it was inevitable that the mile was going to be broken, but I was beginning to wonder it it just never happened. And we've got some of the best, uh, advancements in athletic history, plus some of the greatest runners. All right, you know, um, there's probably 7 runners now who are, you know, at any time in history would be, you know, legends. Um, um, you know, you've got, you've got, you know, we love Ingebrigtsen, obviously we talk about him on this program all the time, but you know, you've got so many— Nagus, Josh Kerr, Kyle Hooker, as well as Jake Whiteman, who's, you know, beaten all of them. Um, and yeah, so there's so many guys who are really pushing, and you would have expected that.

Well, Aaron Cam Myers is just knocking on the door at 19 years old.

Yes, it's exciting, it's so exciting. But, uh, you would have thought the record would fall, but, but, um, and especially with the pacers, I just— but the way Josh ran that race, like It was, I've never seen a more determined athlete and he looked powerful. He looked so strong and he looked incredibly fast and he was, he was incredibly fast. It was a run that I'll, I won't ever forget it. You know, I was, yeah, I was pretty, pretty amazed at what a spectacular performance it was.

I had, yeah, I was quite emotional watching it, which I didn't expect to be, but I— it was, it was just amazing, just the history of the mile and the fact that it has felt so unachievable. And the 1500 record also by Hicham El Guerrouj I mentioned before, it's just still seems so unattainable. So the fact that it seems so— it has seemed so unattainable, whereas we kind of felt like 2 hours was going to get broken at some point, uh, we weren't sure, you know, especially because Kelvin Kiptum seemed like the chosen one to do that. And then he unfortunately died, which was so tragic in that car accident. We thought, oh, did we miss a chance with like one of, one of the few guys that had seemed to have all the right factors to break 2 hours? But Josh Kerbat asked this and he had an interesting point. He said, he said, I want to give both the respect, yeah, it deserves, especially the marathon. It's just, it's a feat we never thought possible. But he said, I, for himself, he feels like the margin for error is so small and it was, you know, we were talking about 0.4 of a second here that he broke it by. And he, the, every, every single stone he had to unturn, you know, to, to get this, just to find 0.4 seconds, um, to break that world record. I think for me it goes, it's so true. There was no, no room for error at all. And to put the pressure on himself. To put it all on this one day and in front of a home crowd to say, I'm doing it here. Pressure from his sponsors— he had bonuses lined up to get this record only if he broke it. Um, the conditions of the day could have been bad, it could have been raining, it could have ruined the whole day, you know, to put his whole year on this one race. We say one of the best things about age groupers is there's always another race. And, and yeah, we have our A race, but if it doesn't go to plan, there's another one. Whereas he really is putting his whole career kind of on this, on this race as a career-defining moment. Um, That was a lot of pressure. And so I was— when, when I saw the marathon 2-hour result, I was— stood silent for 5 minutes, I think. And I was checking the date to see if it was April 1st, because I genuinely— I was checking, verifying post after post to make sure it was real. But this one was, was more emotional for me. I feel lucky that my top 3 kind of performances I feel like I've ever seen are those 2, plus Faith Kipyegon running sub-3:50 for 1500, just 4 seconds ahead of the next closest woman. I think that for me was up there. I said it on the podcast with, with the 4-minute mile. So to have those 3 in our lifetime is pretty special.

Look how hard it was for Faith Kipyego to try and break the 4-minute mile. And that was, that was kind of not as hyped up. It was fairly hyped up, to be fair, but, but she just didn't— she wasn't there. She wasn't anywhere near it. And she's an unbelievably talented runner. She's best that's been for a long, long time. And, um, and, you know, I thought that was a gutsy effort to have a crack at that. But, uh, but yeah, I just don't think she prepared as explicitly. Uh, it was just another run for her that she wanted to try and do, whereas Josh changed his whole life for this. And I think that's the difference. Yeah. Um, um, yeah, so there's a lot to be said for, you know, it's never one reason, it's always a combination of things.

Yeah, the Keep Ya Eye On one was definitely more of a kind of, uh, marketing project by Nike. And, and I mean, keep your eye on 4:07, which was a 5-second world record, which is just astronomical in athletics terms, you know. But they were really ambitious trying to wipe 12 seconds. And because it was such a, uh, a, uh, facilitated event with, with 10 male pacers, you know, pacing her around, and, and they really tried to give her all these as much advantage as possible to, to find 12 seconds. It really wasn't a natural race, whereas Josh Currs was a London Diamond League event with pacers, which they allow. It wasn't a setup run for him, you know. I think these races gave him respect and let him slot straight into the, the pace line. But, um, yeah, you're right that, that, that, that sub-4-minute mile attempt was perhaps too ambitious for Faith now. But that's, that's, that'll be a great one to happen for women's athletics down the line. And talk about dominance, let's move on and, and just touch on, uh, Tadej Pogačar's dominance in a Tour. For me, this is nothing like we've ever seen. He's so dominant that he's now riding as a domestique for Del Toro to win the podium. He, he does not need to worry about his, um, first place, especially with Jonas out. But even before Jonas crashed, uh, he literally changed his tactics. He's domestiquing for Del Toro. That, to me, even in Lance Armstrong days, we, we didn't see that sort of dominance.

No, it's quite remarkable, isn't it? A lot of the purists would say that that's almost, uh, disrespectful to the rest of the riders in the race. But, but I don't think he does it in a disrespectful way. He's actually trying to be a team member, and, and getting Del Toro to win the white jersey is, is important to, to the team because it's clear that yellow jersey's sewn up unless he has an accident. And, you know, it would have to be— he had to get sick or have an accident. Like, and that's not so far-fetched out.

And this, I keep saying, we, we say this on Great Background Tours all the time, but he, he almost crashed out in the time trial which you get the wrong crash, he's out of the race, you know. Suddenly the whole race opens up and blows wide. And then when he broke away on Stage 12, I believe it was, and, uh, when he rode away from Carapaz, and his team's on the radio going, Tadej, slow down, do not take any risks, no risk. You know, you don't hear that in the Tour de France from the leader, but they're just worried about getting to the finish now. But continue.

Yeah, and I, I think sometimes, you know, it's, it's great to be a team leader and to help your other teammates to achieve goals, but really that's not the purpose of the rest of the team. So, you know, I would be reluctant for him to, to be doing that for many reasons. And, and look, one of the things is, you know, getting the most Tour de France wins, uh, in the history is something he should be, he should be aiming at. And beating Cavendish's 35, I think, is it 34?

Yeah, 35, I believe.

Um, and he's— I think Pog's on 24 already.

25, I believe, also.

Yeah. Yep. So, so, you know, that sounds selfish, but, you know, their goals that, you know, to be the person, the most winningest, uh, Tour de France person in the history of the sport, I think is a, is a big thing.

Okay.

You know, Kevin just holds that, and it's well deserved, it, you know, over, over his career. Um, and records are meant to be broken, but not that he should be doing that, but it's, it's really, you know, you want to make sure that you just— you're not being arrogant about it, you're not, you know, you're not being disrespectful to the rest of the race by, by riding like that. And it is a little bit— it's saying, look, I can do whatever I like and I still, I still won't lose, which is, which is true though, um, you know, unless he actually, you know, pushed himself too hard on some of the stages and actually got sick because he rode stupidly, which is what we're talking about with Josh Kerr doing everything right and Um, you know, and, and it— I, I love his attitude though, and he's, he's, you know, trying to be, uh, the humble winner, and I think he's doing a reasonably good job at it, um, considering he's, he's just a standout. Um, he's a one-in-a-generation rider, and, um, and I feel bad for, for Jonas because if POG didn't exist, Jonas would have won probably, because he's come— he's won 4 and come second 4 times, so he, he could have won 8. Had Pog not been around. Um, which is, you know, people don't see that stat very, very much. It's just that there's one guy better than him. Both riders are well above the rest of the field. And, um, if we're going to talk about the Tour for the— for a minute or two here, I just think Remco— I, I have said to you many times, uh, when we just had discussions, that Remco should not do Tours. I don't want him doing grand tours. I don't think— I think he should stick with— he's the best one-day rider in the world, he's the best time trialer in the world. He should stay with that. But he's so determined to be a grand tour rider, I just don't think his physique suits it. I've said that to you, and here he is, he's coming second while we're doing this recording. Um, there's, you know, there's three-quarters of the way through the tour at stage 17, and, and he's just won back-to-back stages. And he's won the— and, you know, people could say POG gave him that victory, but again, that's up for debate.

Um, and no one remembers that, they just remember that you won the stage, you know.

That's right. And, uh, then he comes out and wins the time trial in a dominant fashion. And, and this is the best I've ever seen, uh, Remco ride in a long time. And that's a big statement, having won the Olympic Games, having won the World, the World Road Race title, and he's won the World Time Trial and the Olympic Games time trial. So, you know, he's a very winning cyclist. And for him to be performing like this— and he went away and trained at altitude, and he was very quiet. And, um, and he's really come a long way from some of the shocking Grand Tours that he's performed in where he's been pretty dismal. Um, so I want to eat my words here and say, this is— hats off to Remco. He's, he's gone away and almost done a Josh Kerr and prepared differently, and it's really showing. And he's loving his cycling, and, and I love his attitude. And of course, he's Belgian, which we love, but, uh, But I really wanted him to stay away from Grand Tours because I just didn't think it suited his, his type of riding style, because he is the best one-day time trialer and one-day rider in the world. And, um, and there's so many of those races available to him that I think he should be doing. So, so yeah, there's a few things happening in this Tour that have really caught my mind, and, uh, and that was one of them.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. And it'd be interesting final week with him and, and whether he gets into form or he's He's previously struggled, uh, with these final weeks. He's just been exhausted. So we'll see what happens and see what happens for his future as well. Just to finish off the episode, is there anything else caught your attention that you wanted to bring up, uh, today? Uh, any coaching topics, anything stand out for you?

Um, yeah, one of the things I kind of briefly want to talk about was, uh, when people start to get ill or sick and they're worried about the consistency, um, and I think this is one of the exceptions that you should forget about consistency when you've got a feeling of being unwell. And, and it happens a lot in, in our coaching, uh, world. And I see it happen in some of the elite athletes of the world who, you know, at the moment there's a bit of sickness going through the peloton in the Tour de France, and, and you're wondering why riders can't actually perform that, that well. And you've— and then next thing you find out, they've been sick for 4 days and they've been lucky to finish the stages. And you're thinking, what's wrong with this What's wrong with this cyclist? Um, he's not performing well. And, and for you to expect that if you can get a little bit of sickness and for you to carry on as if it's not going to impact your performance, I just get a little bit frustrated that people don't see logic here. Um, and, and even in the age group category, people say, oh, I've got this race to train for. I can't, I can't be sick. Well, unfortunately, you don't have a choice when you are unwell. Or you've got an injury, you need to let yourself, your body heal. And there's no point in rushing back. And the example I'd give is someone's sick for 3 or 4 days and they have got, you know, a little bit of a cough, a little bit of a head cold. It might end up into their chest and they have something more sinister like a bronchial infection. And yet they're starting to feel better. And because they've got this motivated mindset, which is fantastic to be, to be you know, having, you know, I am so determined that I'm, I'm gonna train, but it's actually detrimental. The consequences of you just jumping straight back into a normal, say you, you, you felt sick on Monday and you had some easy Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday where you weren't able to train. You, you actually felt too ill to train. And if you gave yourself a rating outta 10, you were at 5 or 6, and then you start to feel like 7 or 8 outta 10, and then you've got a, a session that was planned for Thursday, which was a high intensity session. Before you got sick, but it wasn't actually changed, and you went and did that high-intensity session, I've seen it where people have gone backwards and got sick again. And, and they've just wasted 4 days of recovery, done a hard session instead of just doing something that's recovery-like or zone 2, and then the next day do a bit more if you feel 7 out of 10. Remember our theory, we've told this on the podcast. If you feel 7 out of 10, that's 70%. Of, if in power, that's an FTP of 70%. If you feel 8 or 9, it's still not 100%. So you shouldn't be doing a high intensity session. You should be doing something that's at 80 or 90%. So I want to get that message out there again. Respect the illness that you've got. You know, look after yourself, get better hydration, more sleep, and then don't jump straight back into, to that next hard session, which possibly could put you backwards and you just wasted some more days.

Yeah, it's a trap we can all fall into. We think we have a choice, you know. We, as an athlete, we go, well, I could rest or I could just push through. And the reality is we don't have a choice. You've only got one option and it's to let your body recover and then get back into it. And we think, no, but I've got the race, I've got— and the race just has to— you just have to do the steps necessary and then we'll see where you are in a week, we'll see where you are in 3 weeks, you know. And it's— we, we lull ourselves into this false promise that I know I'll be different and, and I have a choice here. And it's like, no, the choice is recover and you only start training properly once you get better. Uh, a final little anecdote I wanted to touch on. One final anecdote I wanted to touch on, a bit of a funny story, was we had our, uh, UK athlete Harris race, uh, Swansea 70.3, and it was, it was quite a hot day. Uh, and, uh, he had a great race for, for the race plan he was aiming for and, uh, for the execution that he was going for. He really ended up executing within his range and got the most out of himself on the day. But he, uh, he's not used to the heat and they've come out of, you know, they come out of long, long cold winters, uh, and don't get very many warm days. And then this day happened to be a 28, 29-degree day, uh, which is just a shock to their system. And, and we spoke about the fact that it's going to be hot, you've got to be conservative. And, and he will self-confess that his big, big weakness is, is just coming out super hot in the first kilometer of the run and, and always overrunning and then, and then pulling it back. And he He was better, he was much better this race, but he still came out a little bit hot. And then, uh, 2 or 3 Ks in, he said to me after the race, he was saying, I was 2 or 3 Ks in and I was running next to a, a lady. And, and he kind of looked at his watch and he looked at her and said, oh, I think I've overdone it a bit here. My, my coach isn't gonna be too happy. And, and she looked at him and saw that the Tri-Velo top and said, oh, is Gerard going to scold you? Is he? And, and he laughed and he didn't know who this was. And he, he just said, oh, she, she must listen to the podcast as well. And, and for me, that was just such a funny anecdote that, uh, You know, for us, you know, having a podcast in Australia but reaching a worldwide audience, it's always so fun to, uh, to, to know the message is getting through and that, uh, people are trying to negative split the Rhine, which, which I think you and I are proud of and grateful for.

Yeah, look, it's happened to me as well, uh, when I've been in a race and, um, climbing up a hill and an athlete's come alongside of me and said, I'm so afraid to pass you because because you might tell me off for going outside of my ranges. And I just laughed. And, uh, and it so happened there was about 20 people who'd just passed me at that particular stage in the, in the Geelong 70.3. And there's one hill there where most people just attack it, and it was hilarious. You know, that's how, that's how, uh, important I think our messages are getting to people. And if that's what we're here for, is to try and give people guidance about what they can do better in, in their, in their own, um, race. And we're using a lot of pro examples in, in the podcast to, to, to, to make the, the lesson we're trying to get across, uh, a little bit more detailed. But, but everything we're doing here is coming from a, a care factor where we're trying to improve, uh, your experience as an athlete. And if you take, take what we say on board like that, I think you'll, you know, you'll get the most out of these podcasts.

Final segment for the episode is we always do our gratitudes. It's a reminder for our own practice to remind ourselves as athletes what we're grateful for, because it's not all about, not all about, uh, the racing and the training, and we want to look for gratitude outside of that. And so, Dad, what was your gratitude for this episode?

Yeah, well, look, in the last sort of 25 days, it's been a bit of a whirlwind, uh, journey for my wife and I. We traveled to Coolum where your brother Liam, your, uh, my eldest son lives. And they had their third baby, um, Beau. Young Beau came into the world 21 days ago, and that was super exciting. And I'm so grateful that, uh, that she was born healthy. We had a few little scares, and there's a few things happening at the moment that, uh, um, uh, always a worry. But, um, at the moment things are going really well. And, um, yeah, so grateful that, uh, that we can experience another grandchild. I'm super happy about that and, uh, love our grandchildren. And, um, that's number 5. And yeah, just, uh, very grateful for, um, for having a really, uh, good family experience. And, and for those who don't know, you live in Bali and you, you were able to come to, uh, Coolum in Northern Queensland for this event. And, um, your other brother Matt and his wife and 2 kids came, and, um, you know, sister Georgia. So all of our family were up to, uh, to celebrate the arrival of Beau. And it's the, you know, we haven't been together as one, um, since Christmas, I think. So it was great to have the whole family. So that's my gratitude, is to, to have family around you and to have another addition, um, have another girl. We've been dominated by the girls, and considering that we had 3 boys and a girl, um, but yeah, it's great. So that's my gratitude for this week.

Yeah, my, my gratitude ends up being the same way but in a different direction. And, and you're right, we only now, because we're quite spread out, we only get together fully as a complete family once or twice a year, so it's super special. And my journey to get there was I actually, uh, did the inverse. I started at the World Cup, which is part of my gratitude because it's something I've wanted to do basically my whole life, and every 4 years it rolls around and there's always a reason not to go. And I just, I just made a commitment to go, um, but I was a little bit hesitant because I was dealing with this back injury and, and trying to train properly, and the travel was going to be a big interruption leading into the marathon, which we updated listeners on, uh, and I ended up DNFing the marathon, which was very, very disappointing. That's 2 races this year I have not started. But, uh, we had a great chat cuz my back was progressing well and when I was over there, but you know, just because I was running okay and I could, I was starting to get a bit unlimited. We were just going, there's, there's 3 weeks of a marathon and even though I can run fine right now, I just haven't done the volume for the last month that's needed to run a marathon well. And we just decided to not put the pressure on and, and just say, let's just can it and let's just not put the pressure on while we're traveling and And that was honestly a great relieving decision for me to, to go enjoy the World Cup experience, which I'm so grateful for. It was, it was just so, so amazing. Just the spirit of the World Cup was, was something else. Very disappointing not to do the marathon, but I think our phone call was the right decision. And then to finish that trip off by flying to see the family and meet Beau was, was a great all-round trip. Was a really special month for me personally. So that's my gratitude.

Yeah, it was great, uh, that, that, uh, journey you had. And, um, it was tough for you because, uh, you know, you really wanted to perform at the marathon, but things don't work out sometimes. And as you said earlier in the podcast, there's always another race. And, um, but the thing I loved, you know, whilst you were over there, um, you know, my dad and mum are both Scottish, and my brother was born in Scotland, and I came out and I was born— they came out and I was born a year later. So we've got a big Scottish heritage. And, and, uh, it was great to see you, um, putting on the Scottish, uh, kilt and the jersey, and then the next day going to see Australia and putting on the Australian top. And yeah, I just loved that. It was, uh, it meant a lot to me, um, with you. You really understood the heritage of, uh, of our history, uh, as a family. And, um, yeah, I think that would have been a special time for you.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was actually, uh, it was surreal. And it was, it felt really emotional as well because, you know, both my grandparents aren't alive anymore, your parents, um, but to, to meet up with our Scottish cousins over there and And yeah, we're the Australian top with the Scottish kilt. And then when the Scottish game was on, switched over to the Scottish top. Was honestly, the celebrations with the Scottish was something else. I've never been a part of anything like it. It was pretty special. So yeah, very, very grateful for the trip and back into things now. So Dad, we've actually got our race where we're racing Zwift in about 45 minutes. So we gotta get off the podcast and we're racing each other. And that's it for this episode. And thank you as always for listening and tuning in. And we're back with more regular episodes. We've got some great episodes coming up and we're grateful to be back. So we hope you enjoyed this one and we'll see you in the next one.