How to Master Open Water Pacing, Swim Anxiety, and Stroke Mechanics - Effortless Swimming

All right, Brenton Ford from Effortless Swimming, thank you very much for joining us on the podcast for, I think, a record time, a 5th or 6th time.

Oh, it's great to be back. I love chatting to you guys and look, if I can talk about swimming at any opportunity, I'm here for it. So thanks for having me back.

Well, let's jump straight into it. I, uh, I won't go into the nuances of the stroke because, because we've got, we've got a few key movers of what helps people improve and the biggest movers seem to be, you know, your entry point. Your catch, your pull, your body position, and your breathing. And you talk a lot about those aspects throughout all your content, all your courses. But for anyone that's going, I don't know where to start or what to do, they're all just as important as each other. What's the priority? Hmm.

I, let's say your breathing's comfortable. I would then always look at head, body, and legs to, to start with. Because if you are bending through the hips and through the waist, or your hips and legs are dropping, it doesn't matter how good your catch and pull is, you're going to be working sometimes twice as hard to move through the water. So I always like to look at that. And even with very good swimmers, there's often things that they're doing that's impacting that position. Uh, I was doing some analysis of one of the top pros last week and her head position was too high. Her hips were sitting maybe 2, 3 inches below the surface of the water. And she's like, she's been front pack Kona before. And it's like, even that just head position, I think from just being in a squad, she looks too far forwards. And, uh, yeah, and there was room to improve on just that. So no matter how good you get, there's always things with head, body, and legs that we want to start with, because then if you've got that in place, you can start to look at what the arms are doing and the rotation and things like that. But it's, uh, it's something that I spend a lot of time with in clinics, uh, or, or in one-on-ones as well, because it's just so important. It's that fundamental, that's that base of the pyramid of the stroke that we always want to make sure we get right first.

It's interesting. I was watching in the Australian Qualifying Championships last night. And I don't know if you saw it, Brenton, the 800 was on. And is it Sam Short? I can't remember the guy's name. And what an action he had. And his body position to me, and the camera work from the television was absolutely brilliant, side-on underwater. And he's got this galloping stroke where like he sort of grabs and then he's— when he did that, his head was well under the surface of the water. And it's like he was swimming downhill and then coming up for a breath and going downhill. Is that kind of something you would try to get across to some of your swimmers?

Yes and no. It just depends on the, on the swimmer. So with Sam, he, he grew up with a surf swimming background, so he was out in the open water surf lifesaving. And, and so he said that's where that stroke of his came from. And because we find a lot of open water swimmers have that tendency to have more of a gallop and they're just kind of used to it, especially I think Aussie surf swimmers because of the waves and things like that. It just lends itself to that sort of stroke. So for some triathletes, we might lean into that kind of gallop of a stroke if it, if it works for them and they naturally gravitate to it. But for other swimmers, they're probably better with a more balanced stroke. With Sam, so we, I did some filming with him a couple of months ago where I got to film him at slow speeds at at race pace. And what I noticed, what I noticed when he went fast compared to slow, so slow, he's got a pretty balanced stroke. He doesn't have that gallop, but as soon as he picks it up, he has that gallop. And it's with his left arm, he initiates that catch quite a bit sooner. And he, he's just in the front quadrant, meaning like he's just got an arm in front of him at that point, but it's not much. So he initiates that fairly quick, that lifts him up, and then he comes through with the other stroke where he's a bit longer, and then when he sort of goes back down, that's where he pushes the chest down, the head, and he does actually go underneath the surface completely with the, with the head. And it's just, I think it's just part and parcel with that gallop stroke that he's, that he's got. But it's like, yeah, it's different strokes for different, different folks. And for him, like, it doesn't necessarily look like doesn't look smooth, doesn't necessarily look that efficient, uh, compared to your traditional sort of freestyle. But obviously it works. He broke the Australian textile— yeah, Australian record, the textile record. I think the 800 was broken in a, like, a full sort of bodysuit.

Yep.

Yeah, so, um, works really well. And I think for open water, that can be a very good sort of stroke with that, with that gallop, especially for a more powerful kind of, uh, kind of swimmer.

It also points to that body position that you were just talking about, is if you keep your head up, naturally it's hard work, isn't it, for your hips and your legs to, to stay as high as possible. If you've got your head up, that would be fundamentally, fundamentally the, the issue you're trying to get— streamlined position. And putting your head down enables you to lift yourself up a little bit more. Would that be right?

Yeah.

And Actually, I did an analysis for, uh, uh, SwimUp in Queensland last week. He was under the impression that he had to be like a speedboat in the water. And if you're thinking like Cam McEvoy, 50-meter freestyle, like in a way, yes. Like I remember hearing Cam McEvoy talk about, he actually tries to press down on the water a bit to help lift him up, to help him sit higher and reduce some of that drag over the course of a 50. But that is just not sustainable for what, what we're training for. Uh, and so this swimmer that I was coaching is a triathlete, half Ironman distance. He, when I saw his video, he's like, just his face was in the water. His back and shoulders were really high out of the water, but he just wasn't cutting through it very well. So I just spoke about, all right, head's like an iceberg. Keep just the top 10 to 20% of your head in the water. Maybe pressing the chest a little bit to help raise the hips up and we want to be swimming at, like, basically under the water or just at the surface really, instead of trying to be this uphill. And that just clicked for him and he was swimming, I think it was about 3 seconds faster per 100, but much less effort. And it was that difference from thinking you had to be a speedboat to just a normal boat in the water, just traveling through it. And like, I think probably for you guys, for me, That seems really obvious, but for someone who may not have that experience or has sort of dug that deep into technique, that can really be a light bulb moment. And, uh, yeah, and it just makes such a, such a difference rather than trying to hold yourself up in the water.

You must say that you probably see legs sinking and dragging back as, as one of the most common problems. And you said that getting that body position right first is key. What are the other cues to prevent that when that's such a common drag that's happening for a lot of athletes?

Sometimes people, they know they need to get the hips up, which, uh, which is a good thing, but sometimes people try and do it by sticking their bum up in the air to physically try and get that up. But in a way, I think you have to approach it almost the opposite of that, where if you think about your posture as being tall and proud and you have this open chest, so it's like chest forward, and with your hips, you're almost trying to tuck them underneath, like tuck your tailbone underneath a little bit. Then you will be straighter through the whole body. And then if you apply a little bit of downward pressure through the chest, your lungs are there. It's where most your buoyancy is. And so when you push that down, that raises the hips because naturally everyone's going to have low legs because the density of the muscles through your, through your legs there, and because of the buoyancy from your lungs. So everyone naturally is going to have their legs lower. So we need to work on that balance by firstly getting the posture right and this little bit of tautness through the body, then we need to sort of press the chest in a touch. And so when people try and stick their bum up, their legs just drop. So it's good for their hips, but it's bad for the legs. They end up slowing down. So I think sometimes that knowing that can also help them maintain a better body position.

Do you see swim stroke as, well, this is how we see it in running. You know, there's a lot of argument about what's the most efficient running style, whereas everyone has such varied styles. And there is a huge, huge argument, which we agree with, that your go-to running style is probably the most efficient for you because it's how you've always run. And sometimes trying to change it to quote unquote get more efficient would be counterintuitive because your body's not used to it. And if the way you're running is causing injury, that's a different topic. But we see a lot of the top runners around the world with what you deem horrific running styles, you know, running 2:01 marathons, for example. And so do you see the same swim style as the same? You know, you see varied swim styles, or do you think in swimming, no, actually these people should be improving their technique and they could go even faster?

It's, uh, I'd certainly lean more towards what you said there, is like go with what naturally suits you, uh, and what you've naturally developed over time. Because, yeah, I mean, again, you look at some of the elite swimmers, there's a guy, Italian guy, Greg Paltanieri, he has this, it's a pretty ugly stroke, it's kind of like Sam Short but, uh, much faster rating. He has a bit more of like a crossover out in front, under the body, uh, but it works so well for him and it's very efficient for him. He doesn't have the back end speed, so he has to kind of get a lead in the 1500 to win because the other guys come over the top of him because he's got this big crossover kick and he just doesn't have a 6-beat kick that he can use to bring in that, like, bring home that last 50. But for him, he's just developed it over time. Super efficient, great for your 5K, your 10K, and obviously really good in 800 and 1500 still. Uh, but he just lacks that, that back end speed. So, but for him, yeah, I don't think he would try and get him to have this like 6-beat kick, even stroke. Like it's just not what he's worked towards. So that's what I try and do. If I'm looking at someone, I want to see naturally what they lean towards and try and just take those good elements, maybe refine some of those things that are slowing them down. But people are just built differently. Like, I— one of our coaches, we were kind of analyzing my stroke and her stroke, and she's got a much better catch than I do. But physically, I just can't get into as good a position as her. I think just because of, like, mobility, how she's built, and that kind of thing. So, you Yeah, just working with, with what you've got and what you go towards is, I think, a much better way for most people. And then it doesn't feel like as difficult to change. So that's what I normally do 90% of the time.

You see a lot of really efficient swimmers with beautiful, nice, slow, controlled strokes, and they sit perfectly flat on the water. And that is where their efficiency comes from, because a lot of the time when I'm looking at these videos of these really beautiful strokes, it's impressive how few strokes they're taking per lap. And that doesn't look like they're trying, and yet they're swimming possibly, you know, 28 to 30 seconds per 50, and they're not kicking. They're just, you know, flutter sort of thing. And then you've got other people who think, oh, in order to get my body level, I need to get my feet up, so I need to kick more. Where's the compromise between those two sort of scenarios?

The pro triathlete I mentioned before, so she, And I mentioned this because she had— her legs were just dragging behind her when she was like doing effectively nothing with the legs, and that was limiting her, her speed. And so that was just a passenger along for the ride with her stroke.

Are you allowed to mention who it is, or, uh, you don't have to?

Yeah, no, it doesn't matter. No, it was, it was Chelsea, Chelsea Sidaro.

Okay.

So, um, I've done a little bit of work with her last season and then this season, and, um, She, so then what we've worked on is just being a little bit more active with the kick. So when either a 2-beat or 4-beat kick most of the time, and it's just this little bit of a flick of the foot to help her rotate to the other side effectively. And with like, she's not someone who's going to be going into a 6-beat kick with it, but the raising the hips and the legs up by kicking, it's just like the kicking part is such a minimal part of having good body position that you do not, yeah, you just don't need to think about that as the thing to keep your legs up. So it's just a little bit of a flick of the foot's gonna do the, do the job there. And it's just like our, our leg muscles are, are big, they're strong, but the way that we kick is not an effective use of those muscles. And so we wanna make sure that it's, it's light. I like to say 2 outta 10, like maximum for your triathlon or for your triathlon swim. Any more effort than that with your kick is probably going to cause you to, to tire because that speed comes from good body position and then the right rotation. And it's, it's mostly your arms that are doing the work. So it's, it's certainly not the kick, even though it does assist you.

Such a good point because I think a lot of people would be shocked at that 2 out of 10 statement, you know, to think, oh wow, is it really that low? You know, people would probably think, and I've had this experience where Okay, I'm probably kicking too hard. I'm probably kicking a 7 or 8 out of 10.

Let's dial it back to a 5 or 6 or 7.

But you're saying no, 2 out of 10 is about the limit where you want to be.

Yeah, and look, it might come up to a, yeah, maybe a 3 out of 10 or something.

Yeah, yeah.

If you're bringing it home, and you wouldn't really need to bring it home in a triathlon, um, but you know, if it is a swim race, then you might bring it up to more like a, a 6 out of 10 towards the end. But you're not going to hold that for more than probably 100 meters, 150 meters if you're really fit. So, uh, yeah, it's much less than what you, what you think. And if you look at the Australian trials are on at the moment in the pool, and most of them in their longer distance events will bring in the, the legs in the last 50, maybe the last 75 or 100, because you just can't hold it for much longer than, than that when you are kicking hard. And it doesn't give you that much extra either. Like, uh, it might be an extra half second, a second, maybe a little bit more for a 50. It's just not that much more for the amount of effort that you've got to put in.

I was just wondering, do you think athletes should train the kick? Triathletes, I'm talking, not pool swimmers, should try open water swimmers. Should they be getting their legs strong so that they— so kicking training so that it becomes more easy on race day? Should, should that be part of their program?

I think for, I think for some swimmers that can be, that can be helpful. So with a wetsuit, you're hardly going to be kicking at all. So if all your races are with a wetsuit, you may not benefit a lot from it. But for a lot of swimmers I work with, I do like them to do at least some kick as part of their warmup. One, okay, I can build the leg strength a little bit. But more than anything, it just kind of helps them get used to the, I guess, the, the feeling of having an effective kick because you'll feel and you'll see how fast you're moving when you're doing kick, whether that's on your side or your front or your back, like it, uh, lots of different ways to do it. But I think it's good to include as part of your warmup, um, for a lot of swimmers who are kind of at that intermediate or above level. I think it's a good, a good thing to do. And it doesn't have to be a lot because it does take time. It's pretty slow for most people. It might take them 2 minutes per 50 to do. So I don't want them spending 20 minutes doing just kick. But it's something that I do with, yeah, quite a few swimmers.

We have the dilemma, obviously, of a lot of the swimming days where we're trying to get their legs a little bit rested as a triathlete for the bike and run. So I'm always worried that adding the kick in is going to make it worse another day where you're actually not giving your legs much of a rest.

I mean, it's with the kick. I like with this, the sessions that I write for just our local squad, we might do 4 100s where we're going 25 skull, 25 kick, 25 drill, 25 swim for each of those 100s. And like, that's, we're getting a little bit in there. That's a total of 100 meters of kick. Just to kind of warm up the legs, make it a bit more effective. It doesn't often have to be more than that. Unless we're specifically trying to fix or change something with their kick. Like, uh, we often have people who are bending too much at the hips and knees, like they're riding a bike or kicking a ball. And so we might do a little bit more kick just to work on straightening that out and making it narrower. But, um, no, you're right. Like, often you need to rest the legs if they have had a big run, big ride day. So, uh, it's usually not, not a lot.

What is your experience like watching something like the Australian Trials? Are you just, Can you not— are you cursed with not taking your analysis hat off and you're looking at all the underwater clips going, oh, what's that catch, that pull, that rotation, that body position?

No, it's like, it's like Christmas Day for me. I love to, I love to watch it. It's, yeah, like I certainly am looking at their technique, but I think more just appreciation for the different styles and I just use it as learning and education more than anything. Like when the Olympics rolled around, I, yeah, like I'd, you can kind of see who's, who's swimming well in the heats and like who you think is going to win. And yeah, it's just, I don't know, I feel like all the coaching and all the analysis and stuff that I've done over the last 16, 17 years, it's like it all kind of comes to benefit from that in a way, just when you get to watching the Olympics and I haven't got insider knowledge, but like, I feel like I've got a better sense of that than anything, any other sports I watch. So it's just really cool to kind of see that and then see how it plays out in the finals and, and all of that. But, um, yeah, I use it as learning because as you say, there's so many different styles there. And, and the cool thing with when I filmed Sam Short, I had a bit of an interview with him as well. It's, um, like, he's just like all the pro triathletes. There's such normal people, just normal, normal guys that put in a lot of work and they just continually refine, continually try and get, get better. And even those elite swimmers, like Sam said, he has a tendency to lift and throw his head around because of that galloping stroke. He's got to be very mindful of his head position and not to lift up as he comes up and out of the water. And he made that mistake, I think at World Champs where he got second by hundredths of a second. He came off the wall in that last turn and lifted and breathed. And so what probably cost me, yeah, it probably cost me the win. So it doesn't matter how good you get, it's always fundamentals and basics that it comes down to.

It's interesting, isn't it? The, you know, some of those heats, there's 24 swimmers who are at the elite level in the world, the 24 best swimmers at the World Championships or the Olympics. And you think, what's the difference between the 24th swimmer and the first swimmer? I mean, they're all unbelievably talented swimmers that would win any local swim event in their state or in their country, yet they're they're not quite at the podium level. And, and it's interesting you said with Sam's breathing, that's the one thing I noticed last night when I was watching. I couldn't even believe that he was getting any air in because it was so tucked in. His breath was like the water wave, was— it was quite a minute area that he had to get some air in. It was absolutely fantastic. I was thinking, wow, what a really good controlled breathing technique he's got. It's funny you just mentioned that, that that was the thing that he's probably been working on.

Yeah.

And he— if you slow it down with a lot of those distance swimmers, they don't have that long to get the inhale, to get the breath. They, a lot of them won't come that far out of the water. But I think what you can take from that is that people think they need this, like, this big space to not take water in when they're breathing. But if you've got your head in the right position, you'll get that bow wave that comes down and under your mouth. And it doesn't actually need to be that long because we're not taking this big gasp of air. It's just this little, it's just like a sip of air and that's kind of enough to get you through to the next one. So, um, it obviously takes a bit of experience and practice to get to that point where you feel comfortable just getting a small inhale, but it's all you, it's all you really need and you see it with those elite swimmers.

Speaking about distance swimmers and transitioning to open water styles, open water swimming, we really want to talk about transitioning from pool swimming to open water and really dive deep into this topic because For us as coaches, you know, we would never ask, uh, our triathletes to just train on the indoor bike and, and do all your sessions indoor and then expect to race well on race day on the open road because you haven't, you haven't ridden a bike out there. You've got no bike skills. Same with running. We wouldn't ask all your sessions on the treadmill and then go do your first run in the race outdoor. But unfortunately with swimming, there's just not that many options for a lot of people. For most people to swim in the open water, they either have to wait till summer and even then it might not be possible unless they live near a beach. And so. How do you, how do you think about coaching someone through to being able to transition to the open water even if they can't get the experience of actually doing it that frequently?

So the, if we think about a triathlon, a half Ironman, an Ironman, even a shorter distance, the, there's a couple things there that will be different than what you've done in the pool. The first one is going to be perhaps the distance that you're swimming nonstop. Because most of our swimming in the pool is going to be interval based, hundreds, 200s, maybe 400s. So are you used to and are you comfortable swimming 1500 or 2K or 3.8K without stopping? So I think part of it is just getting used to continuous swimming. And so if you can't go to the open water, then maybe you have to do some longer, longer swims without a break as part of your training in the, in the pool. So I think that's one factor. The other thing is it might be a wetsuit. And so you can, you can wear your wetsuit in the pool if you can't get to the open water. And I think it's well worth doing that maybe once a week, a couple of weeks leading up to your event, just to get used to it. Because it is like, it is different. It feels very different because of how high you sit. You've got less mobility through the arms. It's, it's a different feeling. So if you get to race day and you haven't worn your wetsuit you will feel maybe like you're constricted with your breath, maybe like you can't get the arms out of the water. So you just have to get, I think, get used to it and do that in the pool. I mean, where I swim in Geelong, there's a heap of triathletes there who I see with a wetsuit on at least once a week as they're going towards their, towards their races. The other thing there is in the pool, you've obviously got the turns. And if you're in a 25 pool, that's a lot of turns, you know, 1K, that's 30, was that 39, 40 turns?

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like, that's a, that's a lot. Um, and so you, you can get a little bit of a break on the wall. You've got the push off. So you get a bit of speed with that as well. Even if you're not quick or great at turns, you still get that boost in speed. So sometimes people's perception of what they can hold will be faster than what it actually is nonstop without turns. Because if you're getting 40 push-offs, that's 40 times where you might be getting a bit of extra speed. So, yeah, if you're holding 1:30s in a 25-meter pool, maybe that equates to 1:35 or, yeah, maybe slower than that in the open water without the turns. So it's, it's worth factoring that in as well and not necessarily thinking that your 25-meter pool pace that you're doing, say, 10 100s on is what you could hold for a half Ironman swim. It might be several seconds, might be 5, maybe 10 seconds slower compared to pool, pool time there and, and race time. So that's why I think just wear a wetsuit in the pool, do some longer, longer swims. And, um, yeah, if you can obviously get to the open water. The other thing is obviously going to be sighting. You're going to be sighting pretty regularly when you're racing. And so that can also slow you down., and if you lift up too high, hips will drop, that'll slow you down. So we want to get efficient with it. And I know we've talked about this on previous podcasts, but sighting the right way, um, on YouTube, look up how to sight, what is it, how to sight and breathe effortless swimming. We've got an instructional video on that. And that just helps make your sighting be a part of your stroke where your rhythm won't suffer as a result. And, uh, and make sure you practice that in the pool as well. If you're in a 50-meter pool, maybe you sight 3 or 4 times, uh, each lap when you are practicing your sighting. Obviously not for a whole session, but you've got to get used to that as well because, um, that is going to slow you down regardless of how good you are at it. But we want to try and minimize how much that will slow you down.

The way I see it is there's a bunch of contradictions happening once you go to the open water because you're probably slower because you're not getting the turns like you said, but a lot of people find that with the buoyancy of the wetsuit and the salt water, you know, they're actually a lot more on top of the water than they are in the pool. Um, and so they're actually better for that reason so that they're, they're a little bit quicker, but then that's counteracted by, yeah, breathing and sighting is a lot slower. And if you're really compromising your stroke every time you sight or breathe compared to the nice small pocket of window you might have in a smooth pool, um, action, that's compromising. And so I guess it depends on each person, you know, how much their stroke suffers siding, open water, but there's all these contradictions that might make you a faster or slower swimmer open water.

And if you are naturally quite buoyant, a lot of females will have a bit more— they'll sit higher in the water naturally without a wetsuit. If you put a wetsuit on and you feel like you just sit so high out of the water that like your legs are almost above it, you can have your head a little bit higher, you can look a little bit further forwards. A lot of athletes kind of have to do that. Or if you're like a a guy, maybe you're quite muscular and your, your legs are pretty heavy and you naturally, you find they sit low, a wetsuit is going to feel great and you're probably going to find your speed will increase more, even several seconds more per 100 than some others. And so, uh, yeah, you've got that to factor in as well.

I was going to say, there's no doubt that, uh, when you're doing 10 100s, you know, if you're swimming in them, as the example you gave on the 130, you know, you've got that rest, 10-second rest, 15-second rest, 20-second rest. So it's a false scenario, really, because swimming 10 by 1 compared to swimming 1K straight, there's no rest. Even though you are swimming the 10 by 1s faster, it will pan out to be, you know, way ahead of what you can do for a continuous swim.

And I know you guys, I think, is it like a 1K time trial, sort of your, like, measuring stick, is it?

What's the variation?

Yeah, depending on where they're, where they're at in the season and, and how close the other event. Yeah. And Ironman's obviously, yeah. Definitely right up for the full distance practice. But yeah. Yep.

Which, which is so good, you know, it's like, uh, you'll get so much better data from that sort of test every, what, every couple of weeks, uh, compared to yet something like a, a 10 100s to see what you can, see what you can hold. It's just, uh, and then you can base their pacing and stuff around that, which I, which I know you do. So, uh, yeah, it's a much better look at their actual long distance pace.

So what's the difference with With open water stroke, you mentioned that, you know, galloping is an example that might be more beneficial open water. What are you, what are you saying to athletes about, you know, how to, how to ride the open water, especially if there's a bit of chop? What's, what's the most efficient kind of stroke for open water?

I, I often look at the recovery first. So how you bring your arms over the water. So we sometimes need to go a little bit higher with the arm so we don't hit the waves. So a little bit higher with the hand or the arm, be a little bit more assertive over the top and swing that hand forwards and carry that momentum over the top and in the water out in front of you. Because I think if you're trying to be too pretty and perfect with that arm, either you'll hit the waves or you'll just kind of be thrown off by any, any chop and waves. So I do like to look at recovery as one big factor there. So a bit higher, maybe a bit wider and faster. You will typically have a bit less glide when it is choppy. So you will initiate the catch a bit, a bit sooner, particularly on one side. And if you breathe to, if you breathe bilaterally, it's, you're less likely to have a gallop. So normally that sort of galloping stroke or a bit more uneven stroke is better suited to someone breathing on the one side. So if that is you, you'll normally find that the side that you breathe to, say that's your left, that left arm will initiate the catch a little bit sooner. And that's where you'll kind of get that, that gallop. So, um, yeah, we do find that tends to happen a bit more, but that, that's a very efficient way to swim in the open water is having that kind of gallop because it can help you just get into a rhythm that can go with the, with the chop and the, and the waves. But it's obviously, it's not for everyone, but it's, it's worth experimenting a little bit with, especially with a wetsuit on where you have that buoyancy. And if you do come up and out of the water a bit on that earlier stroke, then you will sort of go down, but you'll also sort of pop back up because of that extra buoyancy in the, in the wetsuit. Some other things with the, with the open water. If you've got a wetsuit on, you're much less likely to be kicking as much. Particularly swimmers who might be around that like 1:50, 2-minute mark, their legs might hardly be doing anything. And that's, that can be okay for that as well. Like you, you just sit that high that your legs are hardly, hardly moving. So that's another thing that tends to happen. And people often go, look, I just, my legs aren't doing anything in the open water with a wetsuit. That's okay. You know, it's like, yeah, I mean, if you, if you are sort of around that, maybe 1:40 or faster. We might start to see those legs come in a bit, a bit more. But certainly, yeah, above that, sometimes they're not doing much at all.

It's interesting, a lot of swimmers can swim with a pull buoy between their legs and they're just as fast with the pull buoy as they are, um, when they don't have the pull buoy, when they've got the kick, um, which is a bit unusual. But, uh, I always like your, um, your, uh, methodology of that slow to fast sort of, uh, um, theory that you push on swimmers, which was that glide section. This is in open water. It is a little bit more difficult, isn't it? 'cause you're getting that minute, minute, not minute, minute recovery. So when you're coming over the top of the stroke and you're reaching out, that's the slow bit and then you grab the water and that's the fast bit. So you just go through that in the open water where if there's a chop, that can cause anxiety when you're not getting that slow-fast recovery. 'Cause every kind of half a second really helps, doesn't it, with you being less anxious, less, less on the stroke the whole time. Yeah. Can you talk us through that a little bit?

Yeah.

So, uh, in our catch and pull, we want to, uh, think about accelerating through the, through the stroke. And it's a little bit like a, a car getting traction with the wheels. So if, if a car just is stationary and then you put the foot down and straight away you're applying that power, there's going to be that moment of spin until it kind of gets traction. And in the, in the pool or in the open water, we want to start out that little bit slower. So we're going to enter, we're going to reach forwards for a little bit and initiate the catch where it's, we're not going super quick or super hard. That's where we're getting that, that traction and that length in the stroke. And then as we go through the back, we can start to accelerate. And it's not like we're going really slow to really fast, but we're just gradually building up. So we need to accelerate to to move ourselves forward. And it's easier to, to do that because by the time your hand comes past your shoulder and we've kind of moved the, the body past the hand, then it's easier because we're not having to sort of press overhead there. So it is easier to accelerate through the, through the back end, but we just need to make sure that we, that we do it and we don't go too hard and fast. And I think because someone who's not naturally a swimmer or they haven't grown up swimming, they think I've got to go pull harder and faster to go quicker. And that should start from the very get-go of when my hand's in the water. But what they aren't accounting for there is the, firstly, the streamlined position that you get into when you extend forwards and you're on your side. So that is where we're most streamlined in the stroke. And so we need, and that's where actually traveling the fastest. So we don't want to ever go like straight into that catch from there because we want to make the most of that more streamlined position. And from there, then, uh, if we think about the, the catch, well, that is our setup phase where we need to get our big paddle facing mostly backwards, our hand and forearm facing back so that we've got something to actually press back on to move us forwards. And so we're not looking to be strong and powerful there because we're setting ourselves up to then be able to accelerate. And I think a way to keep, uh, to feel very comfortable and maintain your speed over a race. The thing I really noticed when I was filming Sam Short was that in his recovery and when he enters and extends, he is so relaxed. I've never seen a swimmer be that cruisy with their recovery arm and extension arm, but be able to generate so much speed under the water and so much, I think, unforced power under the water. So I've played around with this a bit myself, my own, my own swimming. And when I get it, it just feels really sustainable. It's like you're floating through the water. So if you are really forcing that recovery, that reach and catch, like it's just, uh, it's often too much. So I really like the thought of soft hands is a good cue or just relaxed over and out in front. Then you can build it up and put the power in when you, when it's necessary.

We're big proponents of training how you're going to race and Again, to use the bike example, we don't care what an athlete does on the bike, on the trainer, if they're sitting on their road bike, standing up in the saddle, you know, we don't care what power they're doing. We want them in the TT position on, in the aero bike and show us what power you're doing there. You know, cause that's how you go into race. But there's a fine line, isn't there, between you're going to, you feel a little bit silly in the pool with a galloping style, sighting every few strokes, you know, but you do need to replicate the way you're going to swim in the open water. And so this is the fine line we're trying to ask you about is is, you know, you don't want your open water stroke to be the first time you're doing it in the race or the last few swims before your race. You know, you need to really practice that and get efficient at it in the pool, but it, you just, it doesn't feel natural when you haven't got that rhythm, the flow of the open ocean that you're, that kind of feels a bit easier to have that more open style in the ocean, obviously.

Yeah, it does. And, uh, that's, and I think with that stroke, like we saw with Sam, that when he swims easy, it's, it's smooth. When we when he goes fast, he has that gallop. So I think if you're doing like intervals and you're going at race pace where maybe you do naturally have that gallop, then it is easier to do as well. So you don't want to try and force, uh, like that sort of gallop stroke at a, at an easy pace, uh, because it might just not, not be there. So, and that's why you want to practice how you're going to race. So those, those sets that you're doing leading up to, you know, 3, 4 weeks out from your race. Probably going to be close to that sort of race pace and that's where you can, you can practice it.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's all of it. It's, it's, that's where you, what you said, getting in the wetsuit, acting like you're in the open water, getting into your race pace for, for 1 or 2K or longer if you're doing an Ironman and, and, and yeah, not being afraid to replicate that and teach your body and brain that, that neuromuscular connection that you talk about a lot, which is just takes time. Um, and you can't do it once and then expect to, to see it on race day.

Yeah, exactly right. And, and I think, and you've probably seen this too, is As you start to get better at swimming and, and more proficient at it and more proficient racing, you, like, you've gotta learn how to swim reasonably hard for long periods of, of time. And obviously it's all in, in balance with the, the event that you're doing. But, for those more experienced triathletes, they just have to get used to keeping the effort level at a, at a, at a certain pace or effort, um, over that 1.9 or that, or that 3.8. And, uh, I think, and it's like on the bike. So I think of when I did Ironman, there's no way that I could keep, I couldn't keep the foot down on the bike for a whole Ironman. Like I just didn't have that experience. But if I'd continue to, to race a couple of years down the track, I feel like that's something that I'd have to develop is the ability to hold a harder, harder effort. Um, but yeah, as you get more experience, that's what we want to, we want to see. And so what I've been doing with a couple of athletes that I coach or giving them is these like sort of threshold sets where leading up to a main event, we'd want to do something like 2100s off 2 minutes if they're coming in around, I don't know, 1:15, 1:20, uh, and they're looking to hold best average. So as fast as they can hold across the set. So learning how to go hard for, for longer. Now, obviously, it depends on the athlete you're talking to, but I've seen that with those faster athletes, that that's helped them get, get better at racing and holding faster paces come race day.

It's a really great example of what you can do about it. And, you know, you could extend that if you wanted to, to 200s, I imagine, which, which would be, you know, even more difficult to make sure— it's really learning to execute, isn't it? That, that, that, that average pace that you can do for 10 or 12 or 14 all the way up to 20. It might take a long, you know, period of time to get to 20, but the minute you start dropping off, you've executed poorly, haven't you? You've reached your limit. You haven't executed poorly, you've actually reached your limit of durability, and that's what we're trying to train here, isn't it? Holding the same pace, it's no different to riding or running in an Ironman or a Half Ironman. Can you find your power or your running pace or your swim pace that you can hold from start to finish.

Yeah, now that set that I gave, there's a young guy, um, who's doing more like short course stuff, and he, he's like, he never hasn't quite been front pack. He's just kind of been off it. And like, technically was looking really good when I did some filming with him, uh, but he was just missing, I think, that sort of threshold pace, the, the ability to, to go hard for, for longer. And so I think in that set he was around like 1 Oh, maybe like 1:12, 1:13, I think, long course. And so now he's, yeah, short course, he's down to like 1:07s, I think. So maybe like a 1:09 long course and like that extra couple of seconds will make the difference with him getting front pack. And, uh, yeah, it's just, but he just didn't have that type of training in his program at that point. And so for him, that's what, what helped. Um, and so, and often there's different things in people's program that they, yeah, may have been missing. And like they come to you and say, alright, maybe we just need to get more Ks in the arms, or maybe we need a bit more speed work, whatever it is. But often there's gaps or holes in people's training plans that, yeah, that they just need to fill.

Switching topics to, uh, something that we speak about, I have spoken about a few times on, on episodes with you, but we want to bring it up every single time because it's such a constant, uh, sticking point and problem for athletes, and that's swim anxiety. And we have athletes who are brand new who have a lot of anxiety about the swim, especially if they have not had much experience in the open water. And athletes who have been swimming for a long, long time, you know, sometimes decades, but still get shocked with some, some scary conditions with some, you know, news reports from some, some not so nice things happening around races around the world. And, and so it's a, it's a topic that comes up a lot. And, uh, we, we go through, we've gone through the basics a few times about, um, we say at every race to people, don't be afraid to just, to swim on your back, breaststroke a bit, catch your breath, settle yourself, and then get back into it. It's okay to take 30 seconds to reset. Reset yourself and then get back into things for the swim. But, but yeah, it's a constant thing that comes up. And so what else comes to mind for you with, um, with just dealing with the anxiety of the swim, no matter how, what level you're at, beginner right through to experienced? Mm.

Uh, I, I normally look at, uh, how do we progressively get more comfortable in more challenging conditions? So if you have the opportunity to swim in the open water, Start as safe as you— start as safe as you need to, and that might be swimming along the shore. Having other people there is a really good thing to do as well. Then progressively put yourself in more challenging conditions and environments. Yeah, until you're sort of comfortable enough. So start small, build up. That's, that's the first thing. The other thing is if you've got a wetsuit on, and even if you don't, you can just sort of float on your back. Head up to the sky, tread water, and just kind of get your breath, your breath back. If you are out there and you're like, I'm really quite panicked or not comfortable here, move yourself out of the way of the oncoming swimmers and just get your breath back. I think a lot of anxiety or that, that feeling of like, I'm, I'm not comfortable, I'm starting to fill with, with lactic acid. Often it comes from a bit of hyperventilation where someone isn't exhaling properly. Like it's just this short upper chest breath where it's like, it's like if you, so what we try and get them to do is focus on the exhale. If you just focus on a couple of seconds exhale, mostly through the, through the nose as you're swimming, the inhale will take care of itself. So just focusing on the exhale and then that can help keep you a bit calmer as well. Because I find with a lot of people who even in the pool are not comfortable and they tire after 1 or 2 laps, it's often because they have just sort of breathed in and then they don't really breathe out. And so they might let out 10% of their air and they go to breathe in again, but they've still got that, that dirty air in the lungs, that carbon dioxide. So we've just got to focus on the, the exhale. Uh, it's often the case. Um, a few other things. Oh, sorry.

No, go, go, go.

Uh, a few other things is if you have the opportunity to do a little bit of a swim warmup, that can help too. Because if you go from just heart rates at 60, uh, and then you just jump in and you go for it, it might jump right up and that's where you start to panic. So if you don't, if you're not going to get too cold by doing a swimming warmup, then I would suggest getting in and swimming 200, 300 meters or more. Uh, or if you can't do that, even going for a light, a light jog, maybe an exercise band warmup as well. Just to get that heart rate up a little bit prior to your, to your race. Just kind of expand the blood vessels, get that blood moving before you get in and start racing. Get yourself off to the side at the start as well. Because if you're with the pack, you're probably gonna, you might get swum over. If you're not comfortable, just give yourself some space and yeah, and get away from people if you need to.

I think that guide with the breathing is really crucial. And a lot of people talk to me about feeling that tightness, and I think sometimes it might be the wetsuit's too tight. But I think a lot of time, it's actually them basically saying what you just said is not breathing deeply enough and kind of— it's almost like holding your breath for 2 or 3 minutes. And try doing that and see how your anxiety levels are. You need to breathe in and out. And I think that's a really great piece of advice and it's something that I've used myself. And look, I've, you know, I think I've swam, I don't know, 200 to 250 triathlons over 40-odd years and I still have periods where I haven't been breathing properly and then I'll go, okay, head up, 5 or 10 seconds, just breaststroke. Now I'm going to break my swim because I've got a little bit of anxiety. I'm going to break my swim into— I'm going to swim for another 400 meters and give myself a reward, and then break it down to 6 by 400 or 4 by 400 for the next 1,600 meters. And, and all of a sudden the anxiety is, you know, your brain's thinking a little bit differently then. And don't keep doing the same thing, don't stop breathing, but, but you need to keep the focus on, if I start breathing normally again, I reckon that anxiety is going to disappear. And before I know it, I don't need to stop because I've got my breathing back under control. So all the things you've said, the warm-up, you know, getting away from other people which creates anxiety, breathing, they're really good tips that, uh, you know, for people who are coming up to their next race or their first race, these are really key things that will make your day so much more enjoyable.

Yeah, there's so many So many parts of that, Brenton, which are so valuable. And it starts with the preparation, which you spoke about, and it's, it's slowly building up that preparation so you can get to race day just with a little bit of confidence in the prep you've done. And then so many physical things you can do, uh, during the swim to, to try and alleviate those, those panic symptoms. But, uh, a lot of it comes down to mindset as well, which I really wanted to talk about. Um, because your mindset before you go into the water can really help set you up for a successful swim. And, and just understanding that that you're in, only a minority of people are super, super comfortable. You know, most people are feeling the same as you, and that's really important. And I was just talking to an athlete about this during the week because they had a really bad experience with a swim last weekend. The chop was so bad and it was a 2-lap swim with an Aussie exit, and half the race pulled out after the first lap because it was that bad, you know. And, and she was going, oh, I'm an experienced swimmer, you know, I really didn't want to get back in the water for the second lap. Like, it took all of me to get back in and go again because I just wanted to pull out. And I felt like it would be, you know, weak to, to pull out, even though I was kind of terrified. And I said, hey, if half the race is pulled out, you know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, um, with what you are thinking. You know, you are thinking the same as a lot of other people. And Dad, you had this experience last year where, again, you've been swimming squads since you were 8 years old and there's 60 years of swimming there, and yet you pulled out of a race halfway through for the exact same reason. You just said, stuff it, I'm not going back in. And you don't need to try and think of yourself as a hero. Just remember that everyone else is probably going through the same thing. Um, and that, that is— there's a little bit of comfort in that and going, okay, everyone else is struggling. It's uncomfortable, it is a little bit scary when you can't— the water's murky, you know, it's a bit of an unknown. And I think just knowing that there is comfort in that, and that can help you relax as well.

And I think, uh, at the end of the day, like, um, you— like, everything's going to be a learning experience. And if that means, all right, I had to pull out in the swim, I didn't get to do the the run and the ride, and I've come a long way to, to do this. Well, all right. Yes, that sucks. But at the end of the day, all right, I, I can learn from this. And, um, like you've always got that option. You've always got that option to, to stop if you, if you have to. Uh, and like usually, usually those periods or those, those races or the things that happen to us that at them in the moment feel like, oh, this is the, this is one of the worst experiences of my life or my triathlon career. Often it's the lessons that we get from that that help us get to that next level with our, with our sport or in life. And so I think back to the, the most challenging times personally that I've had, or even races where I haven't enjoyed it, the things have happened. It's like, well, actually that helped me so much 12 months down the track because now I, I know how to deal with it, or I can take a different, different approach. So yeah, in the moment it's, it's no good, but, um, when we look back, it's often, yeah, that— I'm glad that happened. But it's hard to say it at the time.

It definitely forces you to think more about your preparation, doesn't it? Well, why did this experience happen? It could be just the conditions and you haven't been able to practice in those ridiculous conditions. And, and look, in that scenario Jordan mentioned with myself, I thought, well, I'm happy to DQ in this race, but I still want to ride. And, and I wasn't running, but I still wanted to do the ride. So I was happy to be disqualified but just get on the bike and go and do a training session. And, you know, I'm not in the spirit of the event, but at least I didn't waste the day. And look, it just gives you perspective of, you know, maybe I need to, you know, think differently about the training preparation that I'm doing so that I don't put myself back in this position. If you don't do anything about that, you haven't really learned any lessons, have you?

Yeah, exactly right.

One of the last mindset shifts I wanted to touch on was this brilliant quote, which is really, really simple, but so, so powerful, I think. And it's, it's focus on what you want and not what you don't want. And so often we can stand on the beach before and all that's running through our head is, is, oh, this is going to suck. How hard is this going to be? What's out in the water? Are there sharks out there? Am I going to panic? You know, and of course, when you start having those thoughts, you already start hyperventilating, you know, and you're starting off on the wrong foot straight away. Whereas if you just focus on what you want to happen, and it really starts with the self-talk of Okay, I want to have this, this good swim. I want to, I want to ease into my stroke. I want to get into that pattern. What's my sighting going to look like? What's my breathing going to look like? Which, you know, all the things that you want to do. What, what side am I going to look at most? What buoy am I going to aim for? What have I done in my preparation to make me feel confident? All these kinds of things. It just relaxes you a little bit more. And, and although you might still get out there and panic, that's okay. At least you're starting from a grounded place and, and you can do that with all the physical stuff you spoke about, Brenton. But I am curious. As an experience for me yourself. Now, what do you just say to yourself on the beach or on the start line? What's your kind of self-talk?

I think it's a— like, our mind is— it's a goal-oriented thing. We want a target or something to work towards. And especially when we're breaking into those smaller chunks, like, Joe, like you were saying with the, all right, next 400 meters, I'm going to reward myself. Like, we want a mission. We want something to work towards. And so I think that's, that's a great approach is thinking, how do we want this thing to play out? And if you do have that discomfort or anxiety around the swim, if you have mapped out, if this happens, then I do this, like if then. So let's say, alright, let's say my, I, I'm uncomfortable. I feel like I need to stop 200 meters in. If you've got a bit of a plan for those different scenarios, then you can just work through them and you can problem solve. So I think that can also make your mind a little bit more at rest there. One of the things that's helped me through a lot of challenging events, like, and one of those times was did the Rottnest Channel swim. I was 20K swim. It's about 15K in and started to get hypothermia. And I was just, I was so cold and I probably underfed, but I just wanted to get out because I was, I'd never been that cold before, but in my mind, I just, I just thought, I'm so lucky to be here. I'm so lucky to be here. How many people get to do this swim? How many people get to be in this situation? I'm so lucky to be here. So for me, having the mentality of just being grateful for the position I'm in, that's helped me a lot. Even just kind of dealing with nerves prior to a swim. It's like, oh, how good is this? I get to race. I get to test myself against these other swimmers. I get to see where I'm at. Uh, that to me has really worked well, just being grateful for the opportunity because I'm sure there'll come a day where I can't race and, uh, you know, maybe I'm not fit or like, yeah. And so I think taking that, uh, that into account, that's helped me a lot.

Understand it's normal, do as much physical and mental preparation as possible, and that'll hopefully help a lot of people out there reduce that anxiety and just, yeah, just know that a lot of people are experiencing the same thing. It's very, very common. And so that's why we want to talk about it a lot. To finish off, I almost don't want to give, um, give this topic the light of day. It kind of doesn't deserve it, but I'm, I'm just very curious about, you know, your opinion on the enhanced games and how that whole, how that all played out. What, what did you think of it?

Uh, I, so I, I'm in two minds about it. So one is like, people can kind of do what they want if they're not harming others, and so there's nothing in my, I guess, um, uh, in my, the way I sort of see things is people can do what they want. And, and so go ahead and have your enhanced games. Um, but for me, like, I didn't honestly pay that much attention to it because, yeah, I feel like it's, it's just not that interesting to me. But at the end of the day, it just seemed like it was a play to sell some supplements. And I think that's, that's all it really was, which is, which is bananas. I didn't actually see that coming. I like, I was quite shocked with, um, with, with that. But then again, like, it, I guess it shouldn't surprise you that, um, that's, that there's some sort of financial motivation behind it. And, um, yeah, and they're kind of using these athletes, um, for that. And I mean, those athletes that competed in it, some of them had some, some really good paydays and would have made a lot more than what they had in their, say, professional swimming career. So good on them for that. And, um, you know, maybe if I was in their position, I'd do the same. But for me personally, like, I'd go, nah, there's no way I'm injecting myself with all these different drugs and all of that for essentially a good payday. I think long-term health, you know, that's, that's really the thing, only thing we've got. So yeah, to me, I wasn't that interested. And, and a couple months back, they put out a promo video for the Enhanced Games and they took some of our YouTube footage of the guy Dan Smith. And they had this sort of playing in their promo and someone put me, put me onto it. So I did a, I did a video about that, just kind of calling them out on it. Not that I really cared about them using it. Like it was pretty minuscule, but, um, just to pile on because like I wasn't a huge fan of, yeah, of what they were doing. And, um, yeah, it didn't interest me that much. And it sounds like you guys were the same.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think. Results-wise, both swimming and athletics, the results were dismal, you know, so it was kind of, it was, it was laughable. It was actually, yeah, it was seriously laughable about, you know, all this hype about the protocols and stuff. And that's a rabbit hole itself. But, um, yeah, the results were, especially in the 100, just 100-meter athletics, so, so slow. And then interestingly with swimming, um, I didn't pay too much attention to swimming myself, but it seems like, cause they all got to wear the illegal suits, it seemed like that made all the difference anyway, you know, and the swims were not, not much faster. Due to the performance-enhancing drugs, but they all just got to wear all those banned suits and, and that got them over the line by 0.02 seconds or whatever.

Yeah, yeah. And that, yeah, there's so much more to it than just the drugs with, with that. And I, like, I saw this guy Cody Miller, who's a, for like US, uh, breaststroker. He, he was probably one of the, he was one of the guys who was like probably still at his prime or very close to it, and he joined the Enhanced Games. He went maybe like 0.7 quicker in his 50 breast, which is a good improvement, from the drugs, but also he had the suit on. So it was like, how much difference did either of them, them make? So yeah, I'm like, I'm sure it helps a little bit for the, for the 50s and yeah, but it's just, I don't know, it was a bit of a, it was just such a flop.

It looked like.

Yeah. Dad, did you have any thoughts?

Yeah, I don't wanna go too deep on it, but I just, look, I'm a big believer in loving what you do, not for the end result, but for the fact that you love what you do. And at the end of the day, if you're improving naturally, that's really enjoyable. And the majority of us— you can individualize for Olympics and for World Championships, that's a different community than the rest of the world in their health and fitness. We're all doing it for different reasons, but normally it's not that we are being defined by our result. So this is really, you know, all about the result rather than I just love riding my bike and I really enjoy going for a swim and if I could run a little bit more, I'd be doing that because I like doing that and I like training myself to be better than I am last week. And so it really takes away all of that to be just result-based stuff which I'm kind of not not on board with anyway.

On the complete flip side of the coin, uh, to finish off, Brenton, you designed your own very legal, um, very safe and very good new high-tech, uh, goggles, NanoClear goggles. So can you just take us through a little bit, um, the swim goggles you just created and released, which is really exciting for yourself? Why did you, why did you create them and what was your goal for it?

Uh, so about 18 months ago, I came across this new way of basically treating goggles so that they fog way less.

It took it—

they last about 10 times longer with the anti-fog. And so when I tried this new technology, I was like, oh my God, this is so much better. Because I was going away on some swimming camps to, uh, like, took them to the Maldives, and I was like, oh, this is awesome, I can see the fish and the sharks and everything. Whereas I'm used to just like lasting about 30 seconds and then having to clean my goggles. So that was kind of the inspiration for coming out with our own our own goggles is this new technology that was just so much better and it meant I didn't have to buy a new pair of goggles every A race that I was doing because that's what I would do. I'd go out to the shops, get a new pair of goggles, and yeah, that way I could actually see clearly for, you know, for my Peter Pub swim or whatever it was that I was doing. So, then I wanted to, basically create some styles or have some styles that would be good for open water swimmers and triathletes. And that just means slightly bigger lenses than like your in-socket ones that we would use in the pool racing and having some different options with tints and lenses and things like that, depending on if you're swimming in the morning and it's dark, or if you're looking into the sun and that kind of thing. So yeah, about 12, yeah, I know, 12 months ago, maybe a bit more, developed our own line of goggles. And it's been a bit of a ride since. And we've actually had, uh, at Geelong this year, had Yella Gaines, Kat Matthews, Christian Blumenfeldt, uh, wearing our Strike goggles. And, um, and not cause like we're paying them to wear them, but they chose to, they chose to wear them in the race, um, and have continued to, to do so. And I think cause that it's a really good design for triathlon and open water swimming and you can just see where you're going. So, uh, it's been, yeah, really cool to, to see that. And we've just worked on a few different. Styles, um, been sold out for the last few months with them. But, um, yeah, that's where it sort of came about. And I mean, as a swim coach, I didn't know much about goggle design and manufacture apart from just what I'd used and worn. But I've had to sort of, um, yeah, figure that out in the last, in the last 12 months. But it's been cool to see, uh, like those top guys wearing it, um, and yeah, having thousands of athletes, uh, wear the goggles and love them.

It was interesting, you pointed out at Geelong, we happened to be with two of our pros, Tom and Roland, at the Trivello tent, and Christian was staying with Tom at the time, and he grabbed Tom's girlfriend Sophie's goggles off the kitchen bench that morning, and because Tom had been raving about you could see clearly and there's no fog, and Christian's going along and I'm going to see what they're like. And they both, they all come out of the water, I said, well, what was it like? He goes, 'Oh, these were unbelievable. I didn't have to stop. There was no fog.' And he was hooked right away from that point on. And I think you contacted him before the race, or it was in between the race. Yeah, was that—

yeah, I swam with him and Kat a few days beforehand, uh, just in a bit of a training session. And, um, and then so I sort of met him there for the first time, and then he messaged me, I think, the day before the race. Yeah, he goes, are you, uh, do you have any goggles to sell like before the race or after the race on Saturday or Sunday? I was like, no, but I'll drop some off at your hotel. So I, um, yeah, gave him a delivery and, um, I think, yeah, he borrowed, um, Sophie's goggles for the actual race. But that was really, that was really, uh, cool, you know, just to have that happen. So far exceeded anything that I thought would— would have happened.

But even my own experience, I swim at a little lake near where I live, Lysterfield Lake, and it's often a bit foggy and it's just a freshwater lake. And I've been swimming in there for years and I've been wearing form goggles for probably the last 4 years and I can't swim in that lake for more than 4 or 5 minutes without having to stop to see where I am. It's like being in Loch Ness Monster, you know, you don't actually know where you are because it's that foggy. And the minute I put yours on, I was able to swim all the way up to the to the pier and back, I did have to adjust the goggles once. It was— I was like, oh, this is so much better. And my anxiety level was so much lower because I could actually see everything clearly. I could see the, the reeds that were touching my hands and my neck that used to scare the hell out of me because I didn't know whether it was a snake or, or an eel or— but it, you know, I could actually see. And, uh, it was— yeah, it's not me trying to sell goggles, but that was my experience. It was It was fantastic.

Yeah, it's good to hear. We should have put that in the anxiety column of remove anxiety. Sorry, get the NanoClear goggles. Well, they're very popular obviously because you've sold them out already. And so, um, by the time this podcast comes out, we're going to make sure that you've got them back in stock before we release the podcast so that people can grab them. But there'll be a link in the description below to grab a discount for the NanoClear goggles and get onto them quick because you guys, I think, yeah, sold them out way faster than you expected and they are very popular. So, um, Yeah, once this comes out, we'll have them. We also have done a giveaway on Instagram, so we're about to announce the 3 winners. That was an Effortless Swimming x TriVelo combination giveaway, and so we're about to announce the winners for those. And so thank you to everyone who participated in the giveaway. We have 3 winners from the giveaway who will receive a pair of brand new Nano Clear goggles from Brenton and Effortless Swimming. So I'm going to read out the username and what I think the name is based on Instagram, uh, 3 random prize winners. I don't know where you're from exactly, but please DM us on Instagram and then we'll figure out how to get the goggles to you. We'll get you in touch with Effortless Swimming via email. So the first winner was username @tubra, have a name, Mathias Brazil, I think, Brazil. So @tubra is the first winner. Second winner is @arturojosegarcia. Apologies for my pronunciation if I've got any names wrong. And the last was username @roger06. @rhersh. That's Roger Hirsch. So there's your 3 winners. Please DM us, uh, on Traveler Coaching on Instagram, and we'll be in touch to get you your NanoClear prize goggles. Congratulations! But other than that, Brenton, anything else you want to say on the goggles?

Uh, no, no, just working on a few new models, trying to improve the existing ones we've got with a sort of slightly softer gasket so they're more comfortable. Um, and yeah, just continuing to, to improve those. So, um, yeah, I hope, I hope people like them when they try them. And we like to look after people as well. So if you get a style and you're like, oh, it's not the right one for me, we will send people out a different style to try as well because there's different faces, different, um, yeah, different goggles for different people. So, um, we like to look after people and make sure that they're happy.

A brilliant episode as always, super packed with, with heaps of gems and tips, which is, is your whole, uh, everything about the education you do, Brendan, is unreal. The amount of tips you give out online and, um, and in your clinics and everything is super valuable. So thanks very much for joining us again.

Thank you. Appreciate you having me on again.

That's it for this episode. Uh, thank you very much for listening as always. If you want to check out Brenton, his clinics, he does online analysis, uh, and the goggles, uh, go to the links in the description or just, just search up Effortless Swimming. You'll, you'll definitely find him. He's probably the number one swimming creator on YouTube, so there's absolute gold content out there. That's it for this episode, and we'll see you in the next one.