The Medical Student Beating Full-Time Pros - Matthew Marquardt

Matthew Marquardt might be the ultimate age grouper role model. He races at the highest level, he trains as a full-time professional triathlete, he still studies medicine full-time and works as a researcher, and still makes time for philanthropy and life outside sport. In this episode, we talk about how he manages huge stress loads but still performs under pressure, including his recent win at the Ironman South Africa. We cover how he tapers hard because of his life stress, how he has finally solved his cramping issues how he balances training, study, racing, and life, his goals for the rest of the year including Kona, and he breaks down specific training and race strategies including when to surge and when to hold back. This is an episode that every age grouper will want to hear and we can't wait for you to listen. Enjoy. Matthew Marckhardt, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and welcome in.

Thank you so much for having me, it's a pleasure.

We, uh, we really want to jump straight into, uh, your successful race last month, uh, in South Africa, your first win of the year, a really emphatic win, uh, an incredible race and and most importantly, your first cramp-free race in a while, and really a very impressive time with a huge gap on the field. So can you take us through that race and how that experience was to open the year as an Ironman race?

Yeah, no, Ironman South Africa was really such an incredible experience. Besides losing my bag on the way there, everything went super, super well. And I think really the thing that I was the happiest about more than anything was just, it had been a very, uh, fragmented kind of block leading into the race. Um, I had a lot going on, as everyone knows. I did Cape Epic, um, a month before, and then I had a major medical school exam just like 36 hours before I left for South Africa. And so it had been a really busy month, um, even for me. Uh, and that kind of, I think, left some questions of how prepared I was for the race. Um, but the, you know, a big part of the reason why I wanted to, well, there's a lot of different reasons why I wanted to do South Africa, but part of the reason was, is that I wanted something to start the year off that would be fun. Um, and that I felt like I could really leverage my strengths, which is obviously the bike. Um, and that Ironman South Africa course really suits a cyclist, um, a lot more than Texas does. Which is a big part of the reason why I chose the course. And so, um, you know, I think just going through the race itself, the Jamie took it out quite hard on the swim and, uh, I don't know, maybe a third of the way through the race I had to just be like, okay, okay buddy, go, go have fun. Um, I can't, like, I'm not gonna hold, hold that pace, um, for a full Ironman swim. And, um, so I got outta the water with about 3 and a half minutes behind him. And then maybe 30 to 60 seconds behind a couple other guys in front of me. And I, as you said, you know, the exciting moment was the fact that I didn't cramp. I, I didn't have my best, uh, bike mount ever, but thankfully it wasn't, it wasn't televised, so no one had to see that. Um, but importantly there was no cramping. And so that was quite exciting.

Um, talk us through what happened in the bike mount just so we can all visualize it.

It was so, so coming out of transition, it's it's an incline and, you know, I didn't make the best decision. Like I was in a, I was in a really easy gear, so that wasn't the problem. The problem was that like I really tried to put my feet in a lot sooner than I probably should have. I should have just kind of worked on pedaling and getting up the hill and getting to the flatter section before trying to stick my feet in. But I tried to, to go for the, you know, the Hail Mary and like get 'em in right away and that just didn't end up working out well. So I had to put like my feet down and I didn't fall. It was just like not the most graceful thing ever.

Um, good to know you're human just like the rest of us, you know?

Um, but yeah, but then, then the bike started and, um, you know, really just kind of focused on doing my own race. Um, and slowly kind of picked people off one by one. And I think, I don't know, maybe halfway through-ish the first lap, I was, I knew I was in second. Um, but still had like a good gap behind Jamie, and that held pretty stable, um, until right before the end of the second lap where—

Jamie, Matthew, just take us back from the start when you got on the bike, and your, your mindset would be, am I going to cramp or am I not? And what, at what stage did you think, no, no, I'm, I'm good, I'm good to go today? Uh, because you've had a history of this, you must have been thinking, oh Please not today.

Um, I mean, I think, you know, there's always, I think it's always important to have not just like a quote unquote positive mindset, but I think it's, uh, important to race and assume that things are going to go to plan while also always having that backup plan in mind at the same time. So, um, I very much approached it as like, okay, like we're gonna take this as if I'm not gonna cramp. And then if I do cramp, well, we've been through that story multiple times and we'll just kind of go down that, that pathway instead of the preferred pathway. So I wasn't necessarily thinking too much about like, okay, don't cramp, don't cramp. But it was more like, okay, you know, let's, let's try and start catching up. And then within, you know, luckily it's one of those things where within 2 to 3 minutes of the bike start, you know what the answer is gonna be. And so it was very, very quickly on. That I knew that I was gonna be okay. I mean, even getting through transition itself before I got on the bike, like I was feeling relatively confident that things were gonna turn out okay. And so thankfully they did. And then obviously when they did, it's like, there's an excitement of like, okay, here, here we go. Like we can race. But also like, it's been funny because the, with the cramping, I've had to basically like, go into an easy recovery mode at the beginning of the bike. And so it's been a year and a half or so since I've actually been able to do the first part of the bike, like as one should race it. And so it was kind of like almost this unfamiliar territory where I was like, okay, like, well, what do I do now? And had to kind of remind myself like, okay, like, you know, yes, things are going well. And thankfully for once you don't have to kind of ease back into it, you can actually start pushing from the get-go, but it's really easy to kind of overdo that first 30 minutes at a race. And so at the same time, I had to be like, okay, I get to actually go for once, but also reminding myself that, hey, like, you need to be careful because like it's a long day ahead, so don't necessarily burn too many matches right now. So that's what was kind of going through my mind. And then you get into a rhythm and, um, as I said, I kind of got caught up to a couple guys relatively quickly, which is always a nice feeling to have. And, um, because of the course within, I don't know, the first 15K, I kind of knew where I was within the race and I knew kind of where Jamie was and, um, kind of knew the time gaps. And as I said, like that kind of held pretty stable through the rest of the first lap and kind of through the next. you know, 60K to right around like 120K. And then over the course of, um, like 10K, the gap came down like 45 seconds. And then I had maybe another 10K section before the turnaround, before the out and back. And I knew, okay, like I have the element of surprise on my, like on my side. Where he's not necessarily expecting me. And like, if I can catch him before the turnaround, like, it will be infinitely easier than— like, it was, in other words, it was one of those circumstances where like, okay, let's say that I, I could slowly catch him over 40 or 50K, or I could put in a bigger, like, going at the effort that I was going at, or I could put in a slightly bigger effort to try and catch him before the turnaround. And have that element of surprise. So I decided to take the approach of like, let's get him before the turnaround so he's not able to react. And so put in a bigger effort and did catch him. And let me, you know, one additional thing is, so it's a 3-lap course, and there are, I'm forgetting the exact number. There's one train track. And I think there's 10 speed bumps per lap at Ironman South Africa. And these are like big speed bumps, like speed bumps that like are kind of like a bump, bump, bump. Like it's kind of a tabletop. And so you, you can't hit them at speed and like, it does kind of like, you have to get out of aero because if you stay in aero, like you're guaranteed to crash. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so on the first lap, like I have all of my bottles tied down and on the first lap when I was making time into Jamie, Um, I went over one of those and lost a bottle and I actually decided to turn back and get the bottle, which like, I think a lot of people were pretty surprised by it, but like fueling is a super important part of the sport. And like, I knew that like I need, it was a full bottle. And so that had like a quarter of my nutrition in it for the race. And so I was like, well, yes. Okay. I'm gonna lose some time, but also I'm gonna lose a lot more time if I end up bonking. On the bike or on the run. So turned around and got it. And then, um, actually I lost another bottle at the like end of the second loop with like about maybe half of the nutrition in it. And so that was frustrating. But at that point I made the decision of, you know, I kind of did the calculus in my mind of like, okay, there's one, one lap to go. I've already like done this once. Like, is there a way for me to, like get the nutrition I need for the rest of the bike. And I basically decided like, yes, if I grab the Martin 160 gels, if I grab enough of those at like, if I grab one at every aid station to go, like I'll still be okay. And so I decided to forget about that bottle and just go ahead. But that was kind of like a strategic move. What's your, so I, I have, I put Martin 320 in my my bottles and so each bottle, which is generally a liter, therefore has 160 grams of carbs in it. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's, you know, it's quite substantial.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Um, and then, then yeah, so then I caught him and on the third lap I caught Jamie and he tried to stick, you know, and I kind of made a surge and he tried to stick with me and stayed with me for maybe 20 minutes before he started to fade and then Coming into, um, T2 was like quite an awesome feeling because I knew like that I probably didn't have to do anything super heroic. I just needed to put together like a race that I knew that I could do for the run, um, in order to kind of seal the win. And so then it was just 4 laps of, um, you know, a well-paced run was really kind of the goal. And, um, the spectators along that course were just absolutely incredible. Having a 4-loop run course where the start and the finish is actually at the midpoint is like just incredible because, you know, one person can stand in one spot and see you 8 times on the run. Mm-hmm. And like that just enabled there to be so much energy on the course, which was really, really awesome. Um, and yeah, I just like went about, you know, getting to work. Taking the laps off one by one and, um, enjoyed it and, you know, crossed the finish line in a new course record, which was super fun. Um, you know, it's not necessarily— I think course records are really hard in Ironman because it's not something that you're necessarily going for. Like, at least I'm not. Like, I'm just kind of trying to put together the best race that I can, and then whatever the final time is, is whatever the final time is. And so the fact that I kind of just tried to put together a solid race and that was a course record by 2 minutes was, was pretty exciting. So, um, it was certainly an awesome experience and, uh, really glad that I did that race just because it like lined up well with my timing this year. Like I can always do Texas, like it's a 2-hour flight for me. Like I can, I can literally like get there Friday morning, check in, well I guess it's I could get there Thursday morning, check in, race on Saturday, and like if I wanted to, I could be home Saturday night. Like you can, I can do that race in a really tight turnaround, whereas South Africa, that's not the case. And this year it actually lined up that I was able to make that work. And so, um, that's why I, that was the real reason why I did South Africa was because like, I'm not really sure if I'll ever be able to go back from a timing standpoint.

So.

I'm really glad I was able to make the most of that opportunity while I could.

And what was the thinking, Matthew, around the Cape Epic? And for those who don't understand anything about what Cape Epic is, it is one of the— probably the wording itself, epic— it is probably one of the hardest— some TriValley athletes we've had do that event. And just explain that event to those listening. It's nothing to do with triathlon.

Yeah.

And what was your thinking about doing that? Yeah.

Give us some, you know, I think, I think it all comes down to, um, in my quote unquote prior life, I was a swimmer, like a, an elite level swimmer in the US and, um, really devoted myself to that sport, probably to the point where, well, I mean, to the point where I sacrificed, I think, living a little bit. And so when I started triathlon in 2021, I kind of made a promise to myself that like, within reason, I would still make sure that like I enjoyed life and didn't lose sight of kind of like the bigger picture kind of in the sport. And so that meant like when the opportunity to do Cape Epic, especially considering that it was with the Ironman Foundation, and as you know, philanthropy kind of through sport is a really, is something that I'm really passionate about. And so when there was this opportunity to do a quote unquote bucket list race and do it for a really good cause, I was like, well, like, this is an opportunity that I just can't turn down and we're just gonna figure out how to make it work, like whatever, whatever way it does. And so, um, that's kind of why I decided to do it. Um, even though like, you know, you would, aren't, you know, doing an 8-day mountain bike race where you're biking for 4 to 6 hours every day., certainly isn't like the best prep for an Ironman, especially at the elite, at the elite level. Yeah. Um, and you know, I think there was, there was a lot of risk in doing it. I wasn't really concerned about the risk, um, like the physical challenge of it. For me, it's, it's an incredibly physically challenging race, let's say that. But like, you know, I'm, I'm training year round, I'm training high volume year round. Like I wasn't, The volume wasn't necessarily the part that scared me. The part that scared me was the potential to get injured or get seriously sick. Like, I mean, doing a stage race like that really weakens your immune system and you're going through backcountry streams and like all these things that put you at increased risk of illness. And so really the biggest thing that scared me was like a season-ending injury or like an illness that really knocked me out for a long period of time and Thankfully, I was able to avoid that. Unfortunately, my partner was not. Um, and so, so I actually finished as what they call a leopard, which is when you finish solo because your partner isn't able to go on. And, um, so my partner had to pull out after about day 4 or day 5. Um, and then I just kind of rode on my own for the rest of it. But it's an incredible experience. I, it is, I would highly recommend it to anyone that wants an endurance adventure that will really push, push themselves to the limits. Um, and it was just such, I think, a special race because so much of that is on private land that is new, that is otherwise not available to the public. And you're just seeing things and experiencing things that like no one else really gets to experience. And I think that was just so, so cool.

What was the time difference between the finish of that event and, and Ironman South Africa? Was there much gap?

Um, it was, it was just under a month. So Cape Epic finished on the 22nd of March and Ironman South Africa was on the 19th of April. So it was, uh, basically exactly 4 weeks. And, uh, I came home between the two. So, uh, in the span of 4 weeks, I took like the 8th longest and like the 12th longest flight in the world twice.

And how was the recovery? How did you pull up and how long did it take you to recover and then feel like you get back on track with training?

Yeah. Um, so the recovery really wasn't too bad for me overall. I think the hardest thing though was I was able to swim the last 3 days of the race. And, and I did say that I didn't get sick, which is not entirely true. I got like a very short bout of food poisoning the last day. Um, so that last day was really pretty miserable, but thankfully it was also one of the shortest days. And also thankfully I recovered from that like very, very quickly. Um, but really the recovery off of it for me wasn't that bad. The, I think the bigger struggle was just getting back into the routine of normal training because I had done, we had done kind of just some easy runs throughout the week. Like most mornings I would get up and run for 30 to 60 minutes before I did the stage, but like there was no intensity with that. And then I re— there was like a 6 or 7 day span where I wasn't able to swim at all. And when you're training at the consistency and regularity that I am, like that gap of time actually is like a pretty significant gap. And so it was just kind of hard to really get back into the rhythm of things and Um, you know, but I would say nothing was like unexpected, um, which was a good thing.

Did you spend much time on the mountain bike, uh, prior to, uh, Cape Epic?

Not really.

Um, which was so—

yeah. So I, I grew up mountain biking a quote unquote fair amount. Um, in that like the first bike I ever owned was a mountain bike and I would just go on the weekends like with my family. For fun and, but I never like raced it or was competitive against it. It was always just for fun. And then I don't know, I didn't own a mountain bike prior to Cape Epic. I hadn't owned a mountain bike for, I don't know, like somewhere between 10 and 14 years maybe. Um, so it had been like a good chunk of time, but, uh, I, I kind of had the confidence in my handling skills that I would be able to pick it up relatively quickly. And so, um, I wanted to do a lot more riding in the winter, but in Ohio this year we actually had one of the like worst winters I've experienced from a training standpoint. And then it's, it's often cold, but we're often hovering right around freezing point. And so if we get snow, generally speaking, it's gone in a day or two. Um, but this year we had a period like where we got a massive snowstorm and then it stayed like, for you guys, the equivalent of, I don't know, like -15 to -20 degrees Celsius for like 2 straight weeks. And, and then even then when things started to thaw out, it took like another week. And so it was a really bad winter. Normally I'll get outside even on my tri bike it'll just be really cold. But like this year I was like, there, I was just like, there's no way. And so, um, I had maybe a month period where I was able to get out like every now and again on the mountain bike, but it certainly was not an ideal prep. So once again, it was, I was lucky that things turned out well in the end. Definitely not recommended to do the approach that I did to Cape Epic. But it all worked out.

Honestly, it's incredible. And your mindset around it, you're really the fan favorite of the pro triathletes and you're the age groupers' pro triathlete because you're so alike the age groupers, you know, in the sense that you've got so many different things going on. But what you said earlier about balancing enjoyment in the sport and results is really important to you and you're proving that. And it is a toss-up for a lot of athletes. Like, they have an A race and they want to work hard towards it. But they also want to do some fun things sometimes, and sometimes the fun things can detract from the goal, but you're okay with that and you made that decision. And you said that on top of that, that next month was a very busy month with a total stress load. You're studying as well, you had your exams. How do you think that total accumulation of stress and load that you're always carrying is impacting your training, your recovery, and leading into a big race like this, yet you can still perform so well?

Yeah, I mean, I think like a, a big thing that, that helps and, you know, is it, is it quote unquote ideal? Like, is it what like the literature says you should do, um, for performance? Probably not. But, um, I've found that like a couple days before a race, I really try and like shut everything else down. And so that was particularly true with South Africa. And that one of the things that I was, that was fortunate about it is that because of all the travel, I had to get there early. Like it was not a race that I— some races I'll get there like at the last possible moment just because of everything that's going on. But because of the travel required, like I knew that I needed to get there early. One, to like, you know, kind of recover from the travel itself. Two, to acclimate to the time zone. And also three, like, you know, in case something went wrong, um, that there would be enough time to you know, manage that. And so because of that, I was at the race a little bit earlier and I definitely was feeling kind of the mental load of that prior month and, you know, was without a doubt like pretty mentally drained. And so I really had to work to do as little as possible and kind of recover and prepare for the race. And so, um, which is a weird thing to say, like I like worked hard to do nothing, but like it's one of those things that I think with time I've learned the mental state that I need to be in, in order to be ready for a race. Um, and for the most part, I know what it takes to get there if I'm not there. Um, and so that's what I really focused on those last couple of days before the race was like really kind of mentally recovering and preparing for the race. Um, and thankfully I can do that relatively quickly. I'm sure for some people it takes longer, but for me it's just like a couple of days. But overall, like kind of in a day-to-day life, I think one of the things that really helps is that I do have so much going on and I enjoy all of it. And so even though I'm bouncing around from thing to thing to thing, it's not like, oh, here we go again. Oh, here we go again. Like there's not necessarily a lot of dread. And so that, I think that keeps things interesting. And then I think as well, my coach does a really good job of balancing the load in that One of the, I think the key things is that we have an incredibly good relationship and I trust him and his judgment a lot. And so for the most part, like there is some feedback that goes back and forth, but for the most part he writes it and I do, and I do it. And like when I'm done with the workout, generally within 15 minutes I'm onto my next thing. And so like, there's not, like there's not perseverating or kind of ruminating about a workout that didn't necessarily go super well. It's just like, okay. Okay, that's done. Like, I'm on to the next thing. And, like, we'll make adjustments if we need to, but, I think that short-term memory, if you will, can serve you well, in, in a sport.

So I love that, approach. And, yeah, not dwelling on, a perfect average or really poor session can be, detrimental to a lot of the age groupers. They're, you know, they are really dwelling on how well they perform. And, and you, you know, you're giving that, that clarity where it's just another training session that, you know, you need to just tick off and make sure that you accumulate a lot of those over a period of time. So go back to the, the week of the race, and you've, you know, for those who have not traveled from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere, it is a long time, and some of the trips can be anywhere from 20 to 30 hours depending on how many layovers you have. And not only the travel time, but also changing the time zones is incredibly hard going from, you know, if you're coming at 9 o'clock in the morning and all of a sudden now that's 1 AM. You know, you're expected to be awake at 1 AM, you know, from one day to another. So the impact of that that it has on the body is quite traumatic. And if you've not experienced that, you really don't understand what we're saying here. But a lot of Australian athletes have to do that regularly, travel to Europe or to the United States, and that is an impactful thing that they're just used to. So coming into that week, did you have any inkling that you were feeling good? So, you know, do you feel like I'm going to go well today, you know, when you wake up for the race day with that week you had leading into South Africa? Or did you think, oh no, I'll just wait and see? Or did— yeah, because you've performed one of the best races of your career there for sure.

This is a great question. I would say Hmm. Like, I would say it was a squarely neutral experience where, like, I didn't necessarily, like, wake up and feel like, oh gosh, this is going to be a rough day. But I also didn't necessarily think, like, I didn't necessarily wake up and be like, okay, this is my day. It was kind of like, okay, like, it's, I think I'm a little bit more Uh, like kind of rational than that of it's just kind of like, okay, like you have all these feelings, good and bad. Um, but really truly none of them actually really matter until like the race actually starts and until you're like 6 hours into the race, that's when like things actually matter. And so I think there's just this, um, like accumulated knowledge over time that like it's a really long day and. How you feel from one moment to the next actually has very little to do on like the ultimate impact. As long as you keep on putting like one foot in front of the other and get there because yeah, it's just a long day and a lot can happen both within your control and without and also like not in your control. And so like you just kind of have to go, go with it as it goes.

Sorry, George, I was just gonna— on that point, how disciplined do you feel you have to be when you're just waiting? You know, it's a long day, you've got your strategy, you've got your plan. How disciplined are you with— when you're asking yourself as you're journeying through the swim and then into the bike, how am I feeling? How disciplined are you about, look, I'm feeling great? And we, you know, we've had so many age groupers say, I felt so great, coach, early, and then I didn't. Um, and so how are you with your race strategy and your feelings as as you are progressing through the event?

Yeah, no, that's a really good question. And I think the, I think you just have to know that during an Ironman, there are going to be dark times. There are gonna be times where you want to give up and that things aren't gonna feel good. And you just have to have that confidence and that security knowing that things will improve if you keep moving forward. And so. Like I think a great example for Ironman South Africa is I actually felt pretty awful the second lap of the bike. Like it was kind of like a, the first lap I think had gone decently well. Like it, like I felt fine. Like it, it, it wasn't quite where I wanted to be, but also the roads there are really, really rough and like there was a pretty strong crosswind. And so both of those things are gonna impact your like subjective feeling of performance.. And so like, I was kind of like, the first lap went pretty well, but like, you know, maybe wasn't like exactly where I wanted to be. And then like the last lap, the second lap actually felt pretty rough in that I was like, oh gosh, like this is like not great. Like, you know, I'm basically doing like what I can do on a training, on like a decent training day right now. Like I'm not like performing the way that I wanted to. Um, but then like the third lap things turned around and like I felt like really pretty good on the third lap going into the run and then just continued that momentum into the run. And so, um, like it certainly does happen to pros and, um, you know, honestly I think it happens to me at least once every race. So like there, there is always a period of time. There's always at least one moment where I'm like, why am I doing this? I'm going to quit. That generally comes like 10 to 15 minutes into the swim. And then— And you're a good swimmer. Like, man, like, like 10 to 15 minutes into the swim, there's always a moment where like, man, it would be really nice just to like go hang out on the beach. And then, and then, yeah, there's always at least one other moment like beyond that where it's just kind of like, man, things like just don't feel great. Like you just kind of feel like blah. Um, but then things turn around and either you feel better or you perform better, but you still feel awful because like, you know, there's only 10K left in the run or whatnot, and you're never gonna feel good at that point anyways. So, um, you just kind of, I don't know, you just gotta work through it.

Such good reminders. I'm really fascinated by this sort of aggressive mental taper. Uh, and I imagine that is also accompanied by a physical taper, and I'm, I'm curious to know what what that, uh, the last few days of that week of physical training is? Because I imagine when you have these big months or these big busy periods, the risk of just suddenly shutting everything off is your whole body shuts down, and then you suddenly finally get sick because all the stress of the month has caught up with you. So, so what does it actually look like day to day? You're totally resting, you're switching everything off. What's the, what's the physical volume? Um, and mentally, what are you actually doing? Just sleeping, or what's, what's the process?

Yeah. So there's certainly a priority on like getting really good sleep at night. So like really making sure that I'm doing all the little things right to try and get 10 to 12 hours of sleep, like in the week leading up to a race. And maybe for the average person that like gets good sleep every night, maybe that's not feasible, but like when you're sleep deprived, you can actually like do that pretty easily. Which is like not necessarily a good sign. Again, like this is not necessarily like, hey, you should like train on 6 hours of sleep every night and then just like sleep 12 hours the night before, like the week of a marathon, uh, week before a race. Not recommending that, but like that's just the reality that like I live in sometimes. And so, um, like really kind of focused on topping off kind of, if you will, the, the quote unquote sleep battery. Um, and then also, and then like, I don't, I, I personally focus more on sleeping at night versus taking a nap during the day. Maybe there will be like one time during the like race week where I'll take a nap during the day, but for me, I just focus more on like sleeping at night. Um, and then kind of the mental side of it during the day, it's like really just trying to. Like I'll look at email and things like that in case anything super urgent comes up, but I really kind of try and avoid doing that work, especially like call it 3 to 4 days before a race. Um, just so that like I can let everything like quiet down as much as possible. I've done Legos before, before races. That's something that a lot of people know. Um, that wasn't necessarily feasible for South Africa, so I think I just like watched a movie or two, or I don't know, the, sometimes the time just goes by a lot quicker than you expect. So, um, that's, that's really kind of, kind of the big things. And from a physical side, uh, uh, of it all, um, my coach is really the one that kind of like handles all that. And so for the most part, I just do what he says, but, um, we do very much stay like really we keep a, a pretty good cadence with the training going into the race week so that like we don't, we don't just kind of like drop off a cliff and then like you're, you feel bad because you've done so little type of a thing. So it's important to kind of keep the, keep the engine working and moving, but, um, just obviously not necessarily quite the same volume or quite the same intensity that, that you do during normal training.

As Dad said, congratulations on, on the race and the outcome and, and the execution. Absolutely phenomenal. I'm, I'm really interested to know for your race strategy when you're, uh, thinking about those big efforts and that whole mindset around catching Jamie and then doing a bit of a surge. What does a big effort mean to you? You know, how aggressive are you or how much do you stay within a certain power range?

Yeah. Um, I think, you know, you, you could argue that it's a cop-out answer, but I think like there's a certain level of just racing knowledge and racing dynamics that you develop over time that it's kind of like a case-by-case scenario. Like there, there are times where, and it's like really hard to describe where, like, I don't know, in other races, like you kind of, if, if someone is coming by you, like sometimes, you know, like, okay, like I just need to let them go. Like for example, last year at Lake Placid, um, I got off the bike, I had a 3-minute lead over Trevor and he caught me within, I don't know, the first 10K of the run. And like I had to make a decision, okay, do I go with him or do I let him go and just keep doing my own thing? And, you know, I decided to just keep doing my own thing. Um, but I, I also think that in other scenarios, like there's no argument that I should have gone with him. And so that's kind of where kind of like the race dynamics just comes in and that as you race more and you experience more, um, and you get to know your competitors a little bit better, you kind of know, or at least I know, like, okay, here's the move that I need to make if this happens. Um, and so that's kind of like, I, I had a decent feeling that if I put in that effort, which was like, I don't even remember, like maybe it was Maybe it was like 30 to 40 watts more than I had been doing. Like basically like think of it like jumping from like Ironman effort to like a 70.3 effort for like 20 to 30 minutes. So not like, we're not talking like 500 watts, we're just talking like a, a slight increase in effort, like a, a higher effort than I normally would do. But like, I kind of knew based on where I was at in the race and also kind of my own abilities that like I could afford to put that type of an effort in without like digging myself a grave. And so that's kind of the, that's like my, you know, the best way to, I, I think describe it is that like, as you, as you race more, you just kind of know what decisions to make and when.

The, the risk reward phenomenon is always a fascinating one for me. And high risk, high reward. That's, we know that, but come— that comes with a lot of negative outcomes as well. And, and really understanding your body, which is exactly what you're saying, you know, well, I'm capable of this effort for this amount of time, and then after that, I'm not willing to give it anymore. And, and, you know, the idea with, uh, with Trevor in that example where, you know, you could have risked running with him, and in hindsight, it's always easy to go back and think. But at the time, you think you're making the right decision because you've, you've worked out the risk-reward here. You've stayed with your, your pace. But, but you're, you know, that's the beauty of racing, isn't it? You learn a lot from the experiences, and that's what we try to get across to the age groupers here, learning from each race that you do. And, and you can look back on that and say, okay, what would have happened if I picked my pace up, gone out of my zones, risked more? Could I have actually got a better result, or could I have blown myself up and performed worse? And, and they're the things you're trying to evaluate, aren't you, when you're making those decisions on the run, literally?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, exactly. Like, I think, you know, one of the mottos I think we have is that you actually learn, um, that you should be learning more from failures than from successes. And also, like, You know, I'm not saying that getting 2nd or 3rd is a failure because that's still a really good result, but like you can also learn a lot from getting 2nd or 3rd versus getting 1st. Um, and so like I've had a lot of 2nd and 3rd, so I've had a lot of opportunities to learn and thankfully now they're, they're paying off and I'm getting some 1st, which is great and super fun. Um, but you know, there is, there is, there was a lot of, I think investment or, you know, paying in before I got those, you know, those nice payouts.

That takes us to the cramping topic because yes, this has been an issue for you for a while and you put a great post out just saying you've had a lot of different hypothesis and you're a researcher yourself. So, and as a med student, I'm sure you've had your theories and wanting to test things and you, yeah, you said you really think it was you were making a mistake of doing something quite different every time you were racing, and that was overcarb loading compared to, to training. So, um, can you take us through your conclusions and, and how you found that and, and got your first cramp-free race?

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think like the most important thing whenever things go, start to go sideways is really kind of thinking back and looking at and evaluating what's changed. And so that has kind of been my approach throughout all of this was really kind of like, okay, there was a long period of time, 3 years where I really didn't have this problem and then I started to, and truthfully, I think I was, I think I potentially led myself astray a little bit. In that like all the literature shows that like a carb load can be beneficial to you in that like, if obviously if you're under fueling leading into a race, that can be detrimental. And so, and also I think the biggest thing is that like, I was like, okay, like, well, one of the things, one of the things that's changed is the carb load. But I was like, but I can't wrap my head around why that would be like, like mechanistically, I can't. Figure out why that would be causing it. And that's part of, I think, why it took so long. But truthfully, after, after Nice, I was pretty certain that it was the carb load. Um, and originally was gonna do Cozumel, uh, in November and, um, was gonna test that theory. And I think that the theory would've proven true at, at that race. Um, but I wasn't able to do the race because I had like a fluke pulled glute muscle like 6 days before the race. And so, but basically like the approach is, is that like I said, okay, like let's look at all the variables that could potentially be driving this and, you know, try and rule them out one by one. And we knew that the only time that it happened was during racing. And so like, unfortunately that meant that like each race was like this science experiment. Um, and we would try, but I think like a really important thing that I did is that like I tried to keep the variables constant as much as possible across those races. So I think it's really tempting to be like, oh, it could be this, this, this, and this. And then you try them all at once because you want to get the answer sooner, but maybe that gives you the answer and maybe it doesn't, but like regardless, you actually don't learn anything. Regardless of the outcome because you change so many things at once that there could be interactions between things. Like it could be removing this and this is what caused you to cramp or to not cramp. And so it was really important to kind of systematically go about it, um, which is what I did. Um, but yeah, unfortunately that meant it took a long time and then, um, eventually I was like, okay, you know, the one thing that's been held constant across all of this that was different before I started having cramping was doing a, a pretty large carb load. Um, whereas previously I had been having a relatively normal diet the day before race, just like much lower in fiber. Um, and so, but then at 70.3 Worlds, I like tried a carb load for the first time, then cramped and, um, then, you know, the pattern continued. And so eventually I was like, you know, I, I really think this is it and So for South Africa, we did, you know, I think in absolute terms there still technically was a carb load, like it was still a high number of carbs, but it was much reduced. So I think I was like closer to 7 grams per kilogram of body mass, whereas previously I was like 10 to 12. And so, and you know, I didn't have the problem. And so hopefully at 70.3 Happy Valley, that pattern will continue. And then I think once we have, like, you know, an n equals 1 is a data point. You can't really start to even say there's even potentially a trend until you have an n equals 2. That was gonna be my next question. Yeah. Hopefully when we have no cramping at Happy Valley, then I think we can authoritatively say like, okay, this is what was triggering it. I still have no idea mechanistically why it would be, but honestly, I don't really care because there's really no way to truly know. Yeah. And there are some things in life that the outcome is what matters more than like the mechanism of getting there, and this is one of them. And so there's just really no point in spending time or energy hypothesizing this or that or the other thing because there's no way to prove it.

So as human beings, we definitely want to know the why, um, right? But, but as you said, you know, as long as, you know, as long as the car drives, we don't really know why the engine, the engine makes the car drive. But it would be good to know that. But we're a big advocate for, for you documenting, uh, as a, as an age grouper, what you're doing in your training over a period of time. And this is a classic example if you had taken detailed notes, and I'm sure you probably did, of what you were consuming in those big days when you were trying to replicate your race experience in those training days, documenting what you were consuming. And a lot of our athletes don't really take that seriously even though we push it. But imagine looking back 3 years ago to say, what did I eat that week leading into the days where I didn't cramp at all? What did I have the night before? What did I have on the day, the morning of? That documentation is so valuable to making, you know, really good decisions. And did you have any of that information available?

Um, yeah, no, I had pretty much all of that in it. Um, especially kind of in race week, I, I really try and— I try and keep track of things on a day-to-day basis, um, with varying levels of success, um, because some days I'm just too busy to do it and Um, but particularly during race week, I really try and like, you know, track things and make sure that like I'm doing things quote unquote properly. Um, and so I did like, and you know, 95% of the time, like it's just kind of quote unquote wasted time or whatnot. But then when you actually really need that data, it's in— it's invaluable. And so like, I think there are some things like everyone has to make that own, their own kind of cost benefit analysis with some of this stuff, but like, you know, something like that, that actually ended up playing out like really, really was being super valuable for me.

You looked into the topic in depth trying to sort it out for yourself. What are your thoughts on just cramping overall? Because it's such an unknown topic, and you, as you said, you don't even know why it's, it's helped or not, but it has. But for the rest of the population, everyone's trying different things. Some people are trying different sodium intakes, fluid intakes, a lot of people finding that caffeine seems to have a big negative effect. Without caffeine, they might not cramp, but some people are taking insane amounts of caffeine and not cramping, you know. So what are your thoughts on it overall after looking into it so much?

Yeah, so it's, it's one of those things where you just have to say, oh, the human body is incredible, because it's one of these challenging multimodal things where you could have 10 people that have problems cramping, and, and if you knew the absolute answer, you'd have 10 different answers of why someone cramps. And so it's one of those, I think, kind of enigmas, if you will, where there's no one specific trigger or one specific answer, which is why kind of like you just need to try it out for yourself. You need to try different things out and rule things out one by one because yeah, for one person it could be salt, like salt intake, and another person it can be neuromuscular fatigue, and for another person it could be that it was a full moon the night before. So like, you know, like it's, it's just like really challenging to know the exact answer. And that was truthfully a big part of the reason why, like throughout kind of the whole last year, everyone was like, oh, like tell us like what you're trying, tell us like what you think the solution is. And, and actually I, I really didn't provide much information because like, like I didn't wanna lead people astray. Um, and I think it's really important. At least I really try and hold myself to a really high standard of like only speaking when I'm coming from a place of like confidence in what I'm saying. Like, and by confidence I mean like, you know, there's scientific evidence, there's like facts grounding what I'm saying, et cetera, because there's so much out there that's just kind of people making stuff up or kind of just, you know, trying to pass off judgment as fact that I think it's really important to, to really make sure that, like, what you're saying is true, or at least you have a really, really strong base of evidence to support what you're saying, which is why it took me so long to, like, ultimately say, like, hey, this is what I think it is.

I'm intrigued also. We push our athletes to replicate what's gonna happen on race day in training. A lot of the time, and we call that— nothing new, but it's race-ready training. Did you attempt to do a swim session before a longer bike many times in your training, back to back, as if it was a race scenario? Because a lot of the time you cramped just from the swim into the, into the start of the bike. Were you, were you practicing going in the open water, in the salt water, similar similar levels of salt water you could have been drinking accidentally while you're swimming. And were you trying that, you know, getting out of the water as if you're in T2— in training I'm talking— swim, do a T1, jump on the bike. Were you, were you trying that many times?

Well, so a big part of the hypothesis for a while was that it was open water driven. And so, um, like, we kind of thought that doing a flip turn in the pool was kind of like preventing it from happening to an extent, like that, that flexion was preventing it. And so we never really did kind of like, we hypothesized early on that like doing a kind of a simulation in the pool to a bike probably wasn't gonna provide any valuable data. And then we certainly considered it, like I tried to do kind of some more open water swimming just in general, which was kind of a big investment because the closest like lake that I can swim in is like a 30 to 40 minute drive away each direction. Um, so it's obviously a big ask to do, to drive an hour and 20 minutes for an hour workout. Um, but, but so we tried that a little bit, but the other thing too is that we felt like there was a potential that like kind of the taper and the reduction in volume that happens during race week was also part of the equation. And so we weren't like super in, in this particular instance, we were not super confident that. That doing kind of just like a normal workout, but like at race pace would solve the problem. However, kind of with Ironman Cozumel, like I pulled out of the race the day before. And so literally that entire week was a normal race week setup. And, but I wasn't racing. And so, you know, there was this, there was kind of all this discussion of like, oh, do I just do the race and just do the swim to the bike and then pull out, um, but ultimately decided that that wasn't necessarily like the most professional or appropriate thing to do because if you're in a race, you should be in the race to race. And I didn't want to influence the dynamics of her, of the race knowing that I was gonna pull out. So anyways, so at Cozumel, I did do a reduced carb load and then did a simulated swim into like a 10-minute hard bike the morning of the race, and I had no problem. So that was like, that was really kind of like the best, the best possible race sim that you could do without actually doing a race. Um, cuz everything else leading up to that instance was the same, which is what made me like pretty confident that Ironman South Africa would be okay. Um, in terms of doing a reduced carb load and, and sure enough it was, so it could be a bunch of things for a lot of people.

How would you recommend someone goes about starting that process for themselves to, to try and narrow it down?

Well, I think the first thing is really kind of figuring out what the pattern is with the, with the cramping. Is it, you know, is it something that always happens on a hot day? Is it something that always happens during running? Is it something that only happens during biking? Does it happen during all of it? Like, did you do some, do you do something specific or do you do Or do you not do something the day before? Like, did you have an off day and then today is the day that you're working out and now you're having cramps? Like, I think really trying to understand the pattern of when you cramp, I think that is like the most important first step because that provides a lot of information. Like, for example, for me, I was cramping at the beginning of the race, which like is very atypical and kind of tries kind of like almost immediately rules out a lot is most people cramp at the end of a race when they're tired, when they're potentially dehydrated. Um, and so that kind of was enabled us to like rule some stuff out like a lot quicker. And so that's really where I would say everyone should start is like really try and think hard about like what's the pattern in what I'm cramp— in when, in how I'm cramping. Um, and then kind of, then you can go from there.

Amazing insight, amazing advice, and it's such an unknown topic and it is quite widespread, but I think it's worth taking on that approach. And selfishly, we're asking for ourselves because Dad and I have always been big crampers, and I'm in that category of it happens at random times. I can be in a 30-minute Zwift bike race and cramp, and so for me that actually is positive because as you're saying, it rules out a lot, you know, rules out dehydration or necessarily fatigue. So yeah, it's such a fascinating topic. When I saw your post on it, I just went, whoa, I would not have expected that to be the thing, you know, the carb loading. So awesome insight. I want to switch topics to kind of your current training schedule and current training load. And again, I said it before, but age groupers look up to you because you've got such insane load that you handle, and you have to be highly efficient in the training that you do. So are you still averaging around that 20 to 25 hour mark? And how do you feel? Do you feel at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the fact that a lot of other pros can train for 40 hours a week and just fully recover?

No, like, so yeah, I'm— yes, I'm still kind of hovering around 20 to 25 hours a week. And no, I don't necessarily— I don't know, I don't really follow what the other pros are doing. That's kind of been another, like, really important, I think, principle of mine is that, like, I don't follow any other pros on social media. I don't really ask other people what they're doing. Like, I don't really care. And part of that is just because I don't have like the mental space to care. Um, and then part of it as well is like, I know what I'm doing is working for me. And so like, what's the point in looking out and like trying to see what other people are doing? Because who knows if what they're doing is gonna work for me.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so there's just, again, it's like you only have so much time and energy that you can spend on things and like, this is like kind of understanding what other people are doing just like isn't something that I care about. I like let my coach kind of worry about that. Um, and yes, I mean, certainly like you hear this, you know, the 40-hour work weeks come in and whatnot. And, you know, I think there's very few people, I think there's the number of people that can actually do a 40-hour, even a 35-hour work week in a productive manner, the number of people that can do that across both men and women is probably less than 5. And so I think that there's a lot of pros that do big volume because it's the sexy thing to do. They see other people doing it, they get FOMO, when in reality it's actually probably counterproductive for them., to do. And, and so like, I'm just not, you know, I just don't really worry about it. You know, like, you know, Christian Blumenfeld is probably one of the few people that can do it and it's like, well, like he's gonna do what he's gonna do and I'm gonna do what I can do and do the best that I can on race day. And, you know, we'll, we'll see what happens and at the end of the day, like my ultimate career trajectory is not determined by a win or a loss. Um, and so I think that's another big part of it is like, you know, I'm not, I'm not praying for that win or, you know, that podium or whatnot. Like it's, I view it as an incredible privilege and I'm super grateful whenever I get a result like that, but like my life trajectory is not dependent on it, like pretty much every other pro. And so I'm like really grateful for that. And I think that's also what provides me like the confidence and security in the training that I'm doing is that like, it's like, okay, like I'm gonna do the best that I can. Like this, the, these are the constraints that I've been given in my life and some of them are, you know, outta my control. Some of them are within my control, but I'm still making the decisions anyways and You know, I'm just gonna do the best that I can with, you know, the cards that I've been dealt and whatever happens happens. So that's, I think, kind of like my overall philosophy with it is, is that.

That's fantastic. I love that you're independent thinking and you're really focused on what, what you can do each day rather than, you know, being really dictated to by other people's, uh, what they're doing. And we would really want our age groupers to hear that message loud and clear, that, you know, just focus on what you can control. And what suits you may not necessarily suit you, Matthew, or you, Jordan. It might suit me down to the ground, but everybody's an individual. And if we're all exactly the same genealogy, then that would make sense, but we're not. And so I really want to know now the goals for this year? Is it the World Championships as your main focus, and are you working towards that? And what does the program look like from June all the way through till October? Give us an insight as to what your mindset is and how you're sort of planning this next stage of your professional career into that race.

Yeah. So I would say, like, ultimately, you know, doing as well as I can in Kona is definitely always the main focus and, um, I will potentially pursue the Pro Series kind of depending on how Happy Valley and Ironman Lake Placid play out. I think there's still a lot of, um, the path to doing well in the Pro Series is certainly a lot more narrow because it is June 2nd and I haven't done a single Pro Series race yet. So there's there's a lot of racing that has to be done between now and October 10th. Um, if I want to try and do as well as I can in the Pro Series. Um, but you know, for me what's most important is, is doing well at Ironman racing and is doing well at Kona. Um, and so that will take— so if I can fit in the Pro Series and do that well without sacrificing kind of my specialty, which is full distance racing, then I'll do that. But. If we feel that like I can't do both, then, then we won't. Like last year I didn't, I only did 4 races because in order to fit everything in, I would've had to do ZLMC, which was 2 weeks before Nice. Um, which like, you know, Nick Thompson did that and still ended up, you know, getting 7th and I was 8th. So like, you know, clearly it still can be done. Um, but we kind of made the decision of like, hey, would you rather be top 10 in the Pro Series or would you rather be top 10 at the World Championships? Um, and made, made the priority of like, you know, let's make sure that I'm top 10 at the World Championships. And so, you know, I was, even though yes, I quote unquote left money on the table, it, it was a much more meaningful, um, result, um, than the extra money that I would've gotten by doing that race.

For your Kona prep, What specific things are you thinking about in the lead-up and the extreme conditions of Kona? What keeps getting everyone unstuck each time? It never gets easier over 40 years. What kind of things are you trying to do for yourself to be prepared for that?

Yeah, so I mean, I think like first and foremost is that Kona is just another race. I think that's like the biggest thing that everyone needs to remember is that like at the end of the day, Kona's still a 2.4-mile swim. It's still 112-mile bike and it's still a 26.2-mile run, just like all the others. And so, um, while I think a lot of people feel like they need to put in these hero efforts or these, this hero training block in order to do well, like, well, first, if you get injured in the prep or you overdo it in the prep, then you're gonna do worse than if you had just done what you normally do. So a mantra is going into it is definitely like, You know, it's just another race. Um, but with that being said, obviously there's a lot of environmental conditions that you have to take into consideration as well. And so, you know, we'll certainly do like adequate heat, heat prep. Um, and I've done the race 2 times and so we have kind of 2 races worth of data to, to go from and make sure that strategically I don't make the same mistakes that I've made in the past and um, also just kind of think about different scenarios of how the race can play out. And, but ultimately, like, really the main goal is just putting in a, a good, solid, consistent training block leading into Kona and, um, just letting the work speak for itself.

Are you able to tell us what that heat prep is? What, what, what does that look like in training?

Um, no, not really, because that's like a very specific trade secret.

Uh, I thought that might be the answer, but I wanted to ask.

Anyway, we, we have a protocol that we feel like works really well for me. Um, and yeah, so we'll just be following that. That's all I'm going to say.

That's great. Matthew, what about the mistakes that you said that you kind of did with your two previous kind of things? Can you highlight those that you think you can improve on? There are things you could do better than the previous two, and you were very successful in the past that at that, at those two events.

But, uh, yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I think, you know, I think the, um, the, the first time I did it when I was an age grouper, I think like, you know, I didn't necessarily do sufficient like mental rejuvenation leading up to the race. And, um, also I got like a slight infection like 2 or 3 days before the race, which just like makes managing the heat that much harder. So obviously staying healthy is a super important thing leading into Kona. Um, cuz your body just can't handle the heat as well, even once it's, even when it's recovering from an illness. Um, but isn't currently sick. Um, and then, you know, like I think last time I was there, I pushed a little too hard on the bike. Um, especially early on and probably should have sat back a little bit more and been a little bit more patient. Um, so that's like certainly You know, is a variable that I'll be keeping into consideration, like going into this year is like just really making sure that I do the race within my own abilities and, and make sure to do my race versus doing everyone else's race for them.

We can't wait to watch how it all unfolds and, and yeah, can't wait to see, uh, yeah, what happens over the next few months with you. Just to finish off, can you, your, your, uh, intense routine, the amount of things you're juggling at once has been well documented. Uh, can you give us a bit of an update into where you your, your daily routine and your, your weekly routine is at now, how it's, how it's evolved. I mean, how busy is your day, you know, and, and how are you getting through training?

Yeah, so, so right now I'm on a research block, which, um, is really great cuz it gives me a little bit more flexibility in my day. But like even then, um, I'm still very much more of like a morning person than an evening person. So like this morning I still got up at 5:00. Um, I was done with my first workout Well, I was done with my workout by 7:00 and then started the day, well, started the day at 7:00 because I had a meeting at 7:00. And so then kind of from 7:00, again, as I said, I'm on a research block, so I have more flexibility. So I did research from like 7:00 to 11:00 and then I did my second workout of the day from like 11 to 12:30 and then basically came back and did more work from 12:30 to 6:30. And then I had this interview from, you know, 7, 7 to 8-ish. Yeah. Um, and then like I'll kind of clean up the house a little bit and then, uh, you know, probably be in bed by 9 tonight. So that's kind of like relatively what a, what a normal day looks like. Um, kind of right now.

And then just in terms of weekly volume, you're still following a, typical structure that the age groupers do, which is more volume on the weekend because you can, and then, yeah, and then during the days, it's just what you can fit in around what you just said, your research and work.

Yeah.

So during the week, it's generally 2 workouts a day, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, with no workout going over 3 hours. Most of them are kind of like, yeah, like the longest workout I'll do kind of during a weekday is 3 hours. And, but most of them are like closer to like 1 to 2 hours. And then on a weekend, like a Saturday will be a big bike and a Sunday will be a big run. Um, so that's kind of when I'll get a good amount of the volume in. Um, but yeah.

And last final, just quick hitting questions about total volume, cuz I'm sure everyone will wanna know, uh, in that 20 to 25 hours, what's your total kind of average swim, bike, and run that you are trying to get?

Uh, Uh, I actually don't even know the answers to that. It's like, it's like 4 or 5 swims, 4 or 5 runs, and 5 or 6 bikes, I think. I like don't— I truly don't even know the answer.

You really do ask your coach, don't you?

Yeah, I just do what I'm told. It's like I wake up like The night before I look at like, okay, what's, what's the morning workout? How long is said morning workout? When's my first meeting of the day? Okay. When do I have to wake up in order to get that done before the first meeting or whatever? And then I do that and then, you know, just kind of go from there. So.

Are you passing everything? Are you passing all your exams? You haven't let anything slip yet?

Yes.

Yes.

Don't worry. I'm, I'm a good student. I'm. Fantastic.

Well, look, we really appreciate you jumping on at night. It's past 8 PM for you now and you've got to get up super early, so it's been an amazing chat and we really appreciate your time. Dad, did you have any final question or thoughts?

No, I'm just, uh, super excited to see if you can, uh, continue the non-cramped, uh, experience that you've been, uh, getting used to since South Africa and hopefully all the way to, to Kona, that you— all the races you're doing in the lead-up, uh, you can race the way you want to. And we're really excited to see how you go in Kona. I'm especially excited because I love the fact that you're coming out really early in the swim, and I want to see the strategy that you have when the pack is sort of evolving. And what, you know, your strength is your bike riding as well as your swimming, and you're a decent runner. But yeah, what is going to happen on that day when you've got all these decisions to make? So yeah, it's going to be super exciting to see how things pan out. So we're wishing you good luck for the rest of the season.

Thank you so much, I appreciate it. It was great to chat with you guys.

That's it for this episode. Thank you very much for listening. Go follow Matthew on Instagram, he posts some really good, uh, knowledgeable stuff on there, and, and it's really worth following. So thank you, Matthew, and we'll see everyone in the next episode.