#5: How To Win Even If You're Not The Strongest

All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Trivalo Coaching podcast. Trivalo Coaching, where we specialise in cycling and triathlon coaching. My name is Jordan and as always, I am joined here by the Australian 1988 Ironman champion and Australian duathlon champion, Commonwealth Games representative, three times Australian Masters champion, and also the most prestigious accolade of being my dad. And that is the head of coaching, Tribalo coaching, Gerard Donnelly. Gerard, welcome.

Thanks, Jordan. Another great introduction. I'm really getting sick of your. Your introductions, but anyway, that's, that's interesting for people to, to understand what, what the past is. But tonight, today we want to really look forward to. Yeah, how do you actually get some of those victories and the art of racing? And of course some of those victories were in an individual sport and some are in team sport, but triathlon being a very different event to cycling race and. Yeah, that's pretty much what we want to talk about today.

Yeah, definitely. And I think I might try and add to that list as much as I can each time maybe I'll come up with a new fun fact or to add to that accolade.

What about father of four?

Yeah, it's not just me, even though.

But yeah, today we've got a.

We've got a pretty packed show. Obviously the Tour de France is very exciting and to be honest, right now I am exhausted because I've had no sleep. I really haven't had much sleep for the month, to be honest. The World Cup's been on and the Tours started and then last night especially, I watched the entire stage because it was so exciting. It was incredible. It was one of the best stages I've ever seen, I reckon. And then that, that finished, then half an hour later the World cup finals started. So.

Yeah, but that's probably meant a lot more to you too, Jord, because you just did Paris Roubaix as a gran fondo in March. And so it would really mean a lot to you to actually see the guys on particular sectors that you struggled the most with, which you weren't the only one who was strugg on those sectors. The last 10 sectors of this year's Paris Roubaix were very similar to what they rode on today. And it's really great when you've been there and ridden the roads to actually watch the pros go over it again actually out of Paris Roubaix and in a tour. What a great idea.

Yeah, it was. It was so awesome to watch last night. And the same thing happened the day after we rode Paris, Roubaix and the pros the next day. I just could not comprehend how well they rode it after riding it myself. And last night, I was like a little kid watching it and going, I rode that.

I rode that.

The stage is going through. And I was trying to tell my housemates, look at this. They're riding, we're rode. And they just. They just didn't care. And I'm saying, you don't understand how hard it is. Don't get it.

Yeah. And some of the things that you don't really see on the camera is. And I think Robbie McEwen described it really well in his intro. He said, it's like the French have just got along with a tractor and had a whole heap of rocks and thrown them into the mud. And wherever they land, that's where the road is. Back in the 1800, whenever they built those roads. And one of the stories that I've always told, I was actually, when we were in Glasgow riding, I was telling one of my cousins, Brian, who was taking me for a ride out amongst the beautiful hinterland of Scotland, and he was saying, oh, I really want to come to the Belgium Tour with you next year. Tell me about the roads. How hard are they? And I told him that story. And I also told him the story about some of the farmers. The French or some local council were starting to tar some of the actual cobblestones to make the road smooth. And the farmers were out there as they were pouring the tar, digging up the tar to expose the cobbles. And there was this big fight day after day, guys trying to bitumize the road and farmers trying to make it the original cobbles because they wanted the race to go past their house. The minute they got the bitumen on the road, the race wouldn't go past their house again. So it meant that much to them. And now it's common that you don't go over cobbles with bitumen anymore because it's so historic.

And my housemate asked me that last night. He said, why didn't they ever fix the roads? So it's a really good question, and it's because it's become so prestigious now. And I said, part of me is torn on that answer, because as fans, we want to see a really tough race. And it makes the race so exciting. And even though it can be bad, sometimes when people cross crash, it makes it so exciting. But then when I went and rode them, I went, oh, I'm not sure it's exciting anymore. I kind of think it's Cruel the.

Way they have to ride some of those. And we were fortunate because it wasn't wet, it was dry and dusty, just like it was today. And look, the two Tours we've taken, both years have been very dry and I can't imagine how hard it would be in the. In the rain. And we had, we had some practice at Flanders, which is the cobbles on hills, which is different to Roubaix, which is the cobbles on the flat and Roubaix, we had some slippery cobbles and they were really hard to get up, even though it wasn't wet, but the cobbles were.

Once they're wet, the bike doesn't grip. No, you definitely can't stand up.

No, you have to walk. And it still amazes me that even the pros, you know, at times have to walk on some of those. But there's a whole lot of things they do, which is deflate the tyres to the right and use a bigger compound and 28 mil tyres instead of 23 or 25. But we sort of digressed a bit. But, well, that's what we wanted to talk about.

That's why I was really excited for this show because the stage was so exciting and we wanted to talk about the colors, wanted to talk about the Tour and talk about racing in general, because we've seen really good racing so far. And I mean, I was. I was looking at this stage and I just remember exactly what you said, because we rode, by the way, when we talk about Tours, Travelo coaching actually runs Tours every year to the, to the Classics. We go to Belgium, we go to Paris Roubaix. And then if you do want more information on that, you can go to our website and there's stuff there for you to check out. And we give more information closer to the Tours when you can actually book it in. They are super fun. That's obviously what we did this year. And I remember we started riding Belgium and the cobbles were such a shock, especially trying to go up the hills on cobbles. And then the night before Paris Roubaix, we'd been there over a week. I kind of thought, I'm pretty comfortable in the cobbles now. I've got good experience, I'm pretty good. I'm not going to fall off. I did fall off a couple of times while practicing. And then we met a local and he was kind of asking, are you ready for tomorrow for par? I kind of thought, yeah, you know, we're all pretty comfortable. And he kind of shook his head and said, you know, par is totally different. He said, you think the cobblers are bad here? He said, it's like, yeah, like you said, they've literally just thrown these rocks on the ground with just no concern for a road. And I thought, oh, he's, he might be exaggerating a little bit and just.

Scare us a little bit. I hope he's exaggerating.

And then we hit that first cobble section at.

But do you remember we talked about on the Gran Fondo, the Arenberg forest is the first set of cobbles that we hit. And that's probably a five star rating. And look, that is the scariest cobbles I've ever been on. That was damp because the forest doesn't let any sunlight on the cobble. So they're wet. Even though it was beautiful 20 degree day, those cobbles were wet and, and far out. We'd just done already the whole week of training on the cobbles and my bike seemed to be out of control sliding at the back. And now I'm perfectly flat roads. And I was thinking, I don't know if the boys are going to get through this because it is so different to the Belgium cobbles.

It was so scary that it wasn't fun. And afterwards it's obviously fun and talking about it now it's fun. But at the time I was certain we were going to crash. Yeah, guys around me were falling and yeah, it's just, it's one of those things you can't, you can't articulate how everyone can tell you. And people told me, they tried to tell me how hard it was and you just can't articulate. You just can't get it until you experience it.

Yeah. We come around the corner and I'd been building the Arenberg forest up in a, in a kind of fun natured way, but making sure they understood how difficult it was going to be because I'd been there the previous year but, but even I was sort of thinking, oh geez, I hope the boys get, get through this. The first, the first section of cobbles you hit is the hardest by a mile. But it does get really hard from 10 down to 1 sector 10 down to sector 1. And the cobbles change. They've got like pothole cobbles. Like there's gaps in the road where. I'm not talking about a pothole, I'm talking about there's cobbles that are sunk to create a pothole and the bike's just hitting these. And it seemed to me the faster you go, the better your bike was Able to handle it, which, you know, it's hard to do because the bike slows so much, hitting cobble after cobble.

Yeah, it's a trade off because the bike can handle it better, but you don't handle it better. It's just ruthless on you.

Yeah. The rattling through the bike. And I said to a couple of guys, you know, I can't believe the carbon fiber frame is so strong with the amount of vibrations that it receives when you first hit it. You think, my bike's going to fall apart here. And today you saw bikes literally falling apart.

The wheels, not the bikes themselves, but wheels were just completely crooked.

Yeah. I remember years and years ago, George Hincapi rode his bike into the ground. The head stem broke and it was like a rodeo ride. And he was still on his bike, but the whole front had collapsed on him. You just can't, you know, you can't allow for those things to happen. And it's a lot of luck, a lot of, you know, positioning. And that's what we sort of want to talk about today is what. What does it take to actually win a race? How many factors contribute to getting you to get the result you want. And, boy, that's a minefield in itself.

And we could see it last night, the amount of dynamics that happened throughout the stage. Everyone was nervous. And it was such a shame that Richie crashed so early. And he was vocally nervous before the stage in a lot of interviews, saying how nervous he was going to be and that he was going to be very wary. And even if he didn't crash, you know, it was going to be so mentally draining. And he crashed before they'd even got near cobbles. Yeah. Which is so unfortunate. But that's just one aspect of the whole day of racing and how you've got to. You've got to prepare for everything. Crashes, bike malfunctions, just mayhem, which is what the whole day was.

I think I heard someone, one of the pros, saying it's physically demanding, but the concentration level is. You're so mentally drained as well as physically drained after a race like that. You have to concentrate every second. And I did see one of the Astana guys crash. He just got a drink. He had one hand on the bars, his bike, front wheel hit a pothole and he was down. And that's how easy it is. Yeah. You know, you've just ridden four sectors. You're on a nice bit of bitumen that happens to have a pothole in it and you haven't got the handlebars tight enough and, you know, you're down on the ground a split second later, you're, you're chasing again. It can easily happen just like that. The concentration level has to be from start to finish. And who knows? I haven't seen the footage of how I saw Richie crash, but I can't work out what happened. It was just so disappointing from all aspects. And if you go through the history, and I did talk about Cadell Evans a bit on our last podcast, and how many times he had broken his collarbone before he eventually went on to win the Tour. And Richie's almost had the same problem. He ran into the motorbike bike two years ago, which derailed him. Last year he had that horrific crash on the downhill on that when he hit the bank, put him out of the race. Stage nine, exactly the same stage as today. And today, for the third year, he's out of the race and he's, you know, would have been one of the favorites for sure. There's, you know, and I was talking to you earlier about bmc. This is, this is their last go at it. He's got the best team assembled that he's ever had. And now the rumor has that he's signed for Trek and do Trek have a team to support him at the Tour?

You can see it in his face. He was visibly hurt, but he was crying. I definitely don't think he was crying because of the collarbone. No, he wasn't crying out of pain. He was crying out of just disappointment.

Yeah, frustration, disappointment. And so much has gone into three years of preparing, preparation, and, and that's what people have to understand. Things do happen and it's how you deal with, you know, he's out of the race and how you deal with things that happen in the race. Dan Martin's a great example of, of, you know, tough as nails. I'm not saying Richie's not, but, but things do happen to you. And look at Cadell, you know, all those, those disappointments, broken collarbones, and eventually he had a breakthrough and, and got his just reward. And I'm sure Richie will looking, you know, if we look back in two or three years time and he's got a Tour de France under his belt, which, you know, I really imagine he will eventually get there as long as things go his way. But these are all things that make the victory so much more sweeter, doesn't it, when, you know, you have, you know, and Degenkorp's a great example of that. Today with we'll go and Talk about that later. But just things happen to you and it's how you deal with it and whether you feel sorry for yourself and go into your.

I was going to ask, how do you cope with it when it just. It's so derailing for everything, your confidence, everything you've worked for, all the effort you've put in.

Yeah.

You mentally cope with that.

Yeah. And I think that's part of the makeup of the really good athletes compared to the ones who are knocking on the door all the time and never seem to break through that. You can always have the mindset of, whoa, me, I would have, could have, should have. Whereas the guy who has all this bad luck and his determination just gets him, you know, he just keeps, you know, putting himself out there. And eventually you will get success. And, you know, the consistent athlete who just keeps putting himself out there. There's very few examples, and of course, there will be of people who are always coming second and never have a breakthrough. But if you keep putting yourself in that position, eventually things are going to happen. The stars will align and you'll, you'll, you'll, you know, look at Sagan. I mean, he's had something like 82nd places. You know, he's had over a. I don't. I'm not sure about the statistics, but it's close to 100 victories. But, you know, not many people realize how many times he's come second because.

People don't remember that. They remember him for being one of the best riders in history because of all the wins he's had.

Yeah. But what a great day today to have five previous Roubaix winners in today's Tour de France stage. And that was. Yeah, that's quite incredible. And to see, to see two of them in the last three today and Sagan chasing. So there's three in the last four riders. And there's no coincidence, is it, that the cream comes to the top when it comes to, this is my home court, really, isn't it?

Yeah, it was awesome. And I didn't tell you I was going to ask you this question, but. A bit of a curveball question for you. I just thought of it then because I remember your own experience year after year, trying to win Tour of Bright, which is a tour in Victoria, Australia. And each year something went wrong. You had a mechanical, you had. You were sick, you got injured. And we kind of, we kind of saying to you, what are you doing?

Well, as you know, my answer was, I'm going back there till I win. And I'm going to keep going back. And look, you know, that was pretty frustrating all those years, you know, just a simple puncture, you know, on stage one, the valve breaks. The guy trying to help me on the side of the road, you know, he breaks my spare valve as well. And then I actually don't have any spares now because the guy who's trying to help me has actually prevented me from continuing. But what he did do was give me his wheel from his bike. I was out of the race anyway. The guys had already gone 5, 10 minutes up the road so I could get to the finish of the stage. And so I said to him, I'll make sure you come into Brighton. I'll give you your wheel back. But he took my puncture wheel and he gave me his wheel. But yeah, that's just a story to say, look, you know, it's quite funny how things happen. And yeah, and I ended up saying thanks, I sent him a kit and he ended up coming in and buying a bike from the shop, which was even funnier. So we actually formed a relationship just from him trying to help me and then feeling bad that he actually put me out of the race. So. And that was one year. And, you know, then having a mechanical and, you know, Frank, my brother, also had one stage one and stage two and all he had to do was defend stage three and his chain jammed up. Hotham couldn't get it out between the frame and the derailleur. Was stuck there for 15 minutes trying to get it out.

But also what sparked my memory was you crashed really badly, probably a month out from the Tour or something like that. Which again, it was your fourth attempt and you were really fit, really going for it. And then, yeah, almost the same situation where, boom, chance is gone.

Yeah. And it was just me doing extra miles in one afternoon. It was a beautiful day. You know, spring was coming because it was November, December, as the Tour of Bright. And I went and a pedestrian walked out in front of me and ripped my shoulder as I hit the ground and nearly got run over by a car coming the other way. But, you know, these things happen. And it was just another sort of hit in the back of the head, almost sort of saying, far out, am I meant to do this? But, you know, perseverance can, you know, just persistence and eventually got the reward. And it was all the more sweeter to actually finally get on the top stand, win pretty much all the stages. And when you look back of how hard it was to get there, people don't know any of that. And at any point did you say.

Stuff it, I'm giving up to it. Right?

Yeah, there was lots of times my thought process was, you know, you're just not destined to do this. And. But at the end of the day, you know, my mindset. Mindset was, no, I'm not going to give up until I get a chance to have a real good crack at it. And, you know, I think I did nine or 10 of them before I got the chance to win.

And that theme of persistence is not just true in the grand scheme of your training or if you have a big crash like Port did, but you can see it in the race and we saw it so many times last night. I mean, I was just so. The reason I think it was one of the best stages is because from 100k to go, there was something happening every minute. And it's not always enjoyable seeing crashes, but there was either a crash every minute, a mechanical every minute, just some sort of mayhem where the group would split and it was just constant and guys were just having to fight from 100k out. So they get dropped, they get back on, they get dropped, they work back hard. TJ Van Garderen had a shocking, shocking time getting dropped, working his ass off to get back in, and then he was so cooked that he couldn't hold onto the bunch anyway. Guys were sliding out of the. The cobbles and having to fight their way back in. And I couldn't believe the persistence of some of the guys, like Bard A. With help from their teammates who were.

Lander. Yeah.

So far back and ended up finishing with the peloton and just such a big effort for them.

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? And look, you just. I was fascinated by watching how each rider dealt with it and. And you know, wasn't too many guys who just chucked the towel in, was it? They from hopeless positions. They were still turning themselves inside out, you know, trying to make the most out of a bad situation. And I think the only guy who not through want of trying was Uran. And I felt the sorriest for him. He just, he had his team all around him, but just couldn't quite bridge the gap. And look, they. They'd done such a great job in the team's time trial. They were expected to lose really big time. They only lost 35 seconds to. To BMC and he was in such a great. And I really admire Iran from his Colombian background and he's really galvanized the Colombian people. And I think I was telling You a story about how he calls his supporters my boys or my family or some Colombian word that they just love him. And, yeah, I just got a soft spot for him. It was really disappointing to see him get two minutes down today.

His race isn't over. He is, I think he's 2, 250 or something behind the yellow jersey, but he's only a minute something behind the.

Rest of the guys.

So he's still, you know. Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom.

Yeah. And look as bad as a day it was for Richie. He's out of the Tour, but, you know, a guy like Dan Martin, who's still in the Tour and had that shocking crash, and he had the same thing happen to him last year, and, you know, and to see him win that stage three days ago with an attack almost a kilometer out, you know, with Richie on the front, that's. That's no mean feat, isn't it? And no one could go around Richie. But Dan Martin just. Just said, you know, this is what we want to talk about today is the interview after that race. I think Dave McKenzie said, so, you know, did you think you could ride a kilometer at that power? He said, oh, and his typical Irish accent. I haven't done any of those efforts in my training, so I wasn't really sure. I just thought I'd have a go. I mean, who.

Who does that when the adrenaline's there in a race?

And that's exactly what he said. He said my adrenaline was just taking me through, and when I had a gap, I just thought, I'm just going for it. And that's the difference between a racer and. Sure, he nearly got caught, but he didn't. And what a great victory. And another example of, you know, someone throwing all the data out the window and just racing, which you've got to love. You got to take your hat off to him, definitely.

That's why we really wanted to talk about it in conjunction with the rebate stage last night, because we have spoken a lot on this podcast, and we will continue to. Because it's so important about training structure and regime and having data in your sessions and using your data and looking at your wattage and looking at your power meter. But there is this whole other element where if you can. If you can learn how to race, then you've got such an advantage. Because the beauty about cycling is that the best rider doesn't always win.

Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Unlike any other sport. I mean, you look at a swimming Race, and hardly ever the best swimmer doesn't win. You look at a 100 meter sprinting race, the fastest guy is going to win, unless the fastest guy gets injured halfway up the track or something. Yeah, but in a bike race, you know, the best rider does win, but not all the time. The smartest and best rider is the one who's going to win. And there's so many examples in bike racing. And look, bike racing is so different anyway because it's a little bit of a team sport and the tactics play such an important role. But it's really, it's really a good point we really want to hone in on. We've talked a lot about getting the training, the consistency and the data and analyzing it. We've got all those in our previous podcasts. So now that you've got all that information in your mind, how do you put that into the race? And that's what we want to talk about today is, you know, what good is the data and when should you use it? And today is about the actual art of racing.

And if you use the final sprint last night as the best example, I mean, there was three distinctive riders in there. There was probably the favourite was Van Avermaet. Going into it, especially in the yellow jersey as well. He probably makes you ride a bit faster.

Yes.

And the best rider didn't win that last sprint.

Yeah, interesting. Two of the riders had won Deccan Corp and Van Avermaet had won Paris Roubaix and Lampart was the Belgium champion. So he's no slouch either. He had won, you know, and Van Avermaet would have been in that Belgian National Championship race this year, which is the jersey that, yeah, Lampard was wearing. So he's obviously beaten Van Avermaet this year, so. And to have Degenkorp on the front with the two guys sitting in the best posi. Robbie McEwen was even saying, oh, it's not. That's not the best tactics from Devonport Degenkorp. And, you know, he's not an out and out sprinter. The other guys are better sprinters than him. And, you know, boy, he just turned the tables. It was a really well thought out sprint and, you know, with such few meters to go, that was probably the best chance he had because you can't really sprint over the top of someone with only 150 meters to go unless you get a run up and none of the two guys behind. And we talk about laying off the bike, which is, you know, giving yourself a gap and then Charging into the back of the slipstream and then coming round, which is a real art and something, you know, some of our guys, you know, probably should be practicing, but, but that's how to come from behind. And you know, to have a three man standing start, if the guy who's third, he's giving the guys two bike lengths, that's a pretty phenomenal sprint effort to actually have to come over two bikes in that shorter distance. You know, no matter how good a sprinter you are, if you get that.

Slingshot, then you've got a chance.

Yeah, yeah. The differences in the way you sprint and Deccan Corpse really done that well because he's love to see what his power was for those first ten pedal strokes. Yeah. And he had that determined look, wasn't it? They're not going to come over. He didn't even look under his wheel or anything. He just drove it to the line. And it's such talking about reward for effort. And remember he won in 2015 at Roubaix. He also won Milan San Remo that year. And then in 2016 it might have been he was riding with the giant Alperchin team that got hit by a car who went across the other side of the road and ran over them. And he was really badly injured and they pretty much said, I don't think you'll ever come back from this. And his determination to say no, I, I think there's still another race in me. I've got some. He's only 29 and it was great reward for persistence. I, I think it was a great example of someone who's, you know, had such a great career and then had that really horrible accident and, you know, hopefully, you know, Richie can take heart that, you know, that good things can happen.

You could almost say the determination that got him back on the bike when they say you're not going to ride again, is the same determination you see in the last 20 seconds when he says, I'm going to win this race.

Yes, that's such a good point, Jordan. And I really believe that, you know, those experiences contribute to your victories. You know, you're asking me about the tour of Bright. I'm sure those, you know, the determination you have because of what you've experienced is something that. Don't underestimate and, and that, that mixed with the adrenaline flow of, you know, and what were his thought processes in that last 500 meters when he went to the front? You know, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing here, but you got to back yourself and, and you know, you don't know what's going to happen. It evolves, doesn't it? The guys from behind could have attacked earlier and, and caught him unawares. You know, there's so many scenarios in that situation, which is one of the things we want to talk about is, you know, how do you get better at racing? And one of the things is do more races. And because as a coach, people ask me that question so many times, what should I have done in this situation? Well, it's great you've asked that question because you've experienced it. But if I try to coach you before the race about these are the things that I think can happen. You wouldn't get to the race in time because we'd be talking for days about so many scenarios. And unfortunately the best way to get better at those scenarios is to experience them in a race. And you know, there's a couple of guys that are just so keen to learn how to race well and I've been really. They're just new to criterium racing and it's been a real treat for me to help them race better in criterion races just at club level and bunch road racing just to get them better at that. And you know, the experiences they're getting from me, putting them in so many races is really helping them develop their race craft. And that's what it's about, experiencing scenarios that once you've done it and made a mistake, you won't probably make that same mistake again, but you can have the same scenario with a different rider and it could have a different outcome. So there's so many different situations that can determine what your effort should be in that situation.

But racing, like you always say, actually gets you a lot fitter as well, because we have a range of people who are doing crit races or people that are just racing on the weekends against their mates, either doing a bunch ride and racing in for little sprints or really trying to win the bunch ride. And whether you've got the number on or not, obviously having the number on takes it to another level, but you can use all that and practice all that to. To get a lot better. You always say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you can get a lot fitter and a lot more experience just by practicing that more and more rather than sitting in the bunch and having a go.

Yeah, I use the example. I'm not sure whether you and I were talking about it the other day, but at the start of the crit season if everybody comes in with whatever level of fitness they come in, like pre season for footy, you come in with a certain level of fitness, and at the start of the first race, everybody's kind of starting again. And obviously the guys who are fitter are going to have more of a say in how the race pans out. The guys who are struggling for fitness, they've got two options. They can put themselves out there and try and make it as hard a race as possible, or they can hide and just get through the race and see if they can get a result that way. The guy who puts himself out there, because maybe there's 20 crit races over the summer by the time the 20th race comes, if he's continually putting himself out there and getting himself fitter in these races, he will end up getting a better result than the guy who hides the whole season, because the fitness level will be astronomically different and you'll be able to cope with so many more scenarios. I always say the guys who get in the break the first two or three weeks, after three weeks of racing, they're so much further ahead in fitness and racing fitness than the guys who just stay in the bunch. And it just seems to be, as the season goes on, the guys who continually get in the break are the. It seems to be they're the same guys who win for the rest of the year. The guys in the break are getting so much out of it because they're rolling turns, they're putting themselves on the edge, they're getting their threshold up, their heart rate up. The guys sitting in the bunch, they're not doing any of that. It's just like a training ride. They're waiting for other people to do all the effort. There's still guys in the bunch who are sitting on the front, trying to chase down the bunch, the breakaway, sorry, who are getting fit. But there's still a percentage of guys sitting in the bunch who are not doing anything, not improving their race craft or their fitness for the season, and they will stay that way all summer.

So best of that, where do you position yourself in a race? In a bunch, in a race, if you want to be improving, where do you sit? How do you stay there? How do you hold that? Because in a bunch of 50 or 30 or 10, someone's going to be at the front, someone's going to be at the back.

That's such a good point, Jord. In every race, someone has to be at the back. What's the point of being at the back? Well, sometimes you don't have any choice. You could be stuck at the back because the race is at such a high intensity and so fast that at the end of the day, you know, when you come into a corner, for example, on a road race, the lead 15, I would say it's a bunch of 50, the lead 15 riders going into the corner, slowing down and then accelerating out of the corner. And they're probably 50 or 60 metres up the road as you're still slowing down into the. The corner because you're at the back of the. At the bunch. So you're having to ride way faster out of the corner than to catch up to the guys who are already back up to speed. So that concertina effect or that slingshot effect, it's a horrible position to be at the back. It is no joy anywhere at the back, believe me. So that's a position that if I find myself in the back, I'm like, no way, I'm not staying here one more second. Then how do you. If the race is so fast, how do you move? Well, when there is a lull, that's your time to get away from the back and pass as many people as you can before you get to a corner. So you now put yourself in the middle of the field. Look, there is no right or wrong place, but the general consensus is that most crashes happen from three quarters of the way or half the way down the bunch to the back, but they still do have crashes at the front of the race. So ideally, we want to position ourselves in the first half of the race so that we have less chance of crashing. We want to position ourselves in the first half of the race so that we can see what's happening if the bunch is. And look, I've ridden in bunches that are over 300 at the world titles in Perth. And if you're sitting 200th, you can't see if someone's gone off the front. Someone could attack and break away and be out of sight by the time you get near the front. And if you don't ask anybody, has anybody broken away? You wouldn't know if someone's up the road. And I've seen guys sprinting with a bunch thinking they've won, not knowing that there was someone actually broken away and actually they sprinted for second. And that's pretty hilarious. And that's a reason to be positioned close to the front so you can see what's actually happening in the race. You want to be able to see what's evolving around you.

So if you're in a good position, then how do you go about. Because there's obviously there's going to be so many different scenarios. So individual scenarios aside, how do you manage your race? How do you go, okay, I'm in a good position, how do I manage my attacks? I know you use the matches example that you've only got a certain amount of matches to burn. Yep. How do you. How do you go about that as a. Just. Just from racing tactics?

Yeah, but look, there's a. There's a whole lot of answers to that. And with every question you ask me, there is not one answer ever. But if your main goal is for that particular race is to be the aggressor, then you'll be looking for opportunities to attack. If your main goal for the race is to follow someone you think is going to be the main person, then you need to be positioning yourself behind that person. So when he moves, you move. And look, the first scenario is if you're the aggressor, you've actually got to look for opportunities when the race and where everybody is really at their limit. That's my rule of thumb. Don't attack when everybody's fresh. Very rarely will that work. It will work if you just sort of slide off the front and nonchalantly have a drink and get 10 meters and then get 20. That will work one out of 100 times it does work. I've seen it happen. But if you actually attack when everybody's on their limit, there'll only be two or three people who are mentally tough enough to go, I've got to go with this move. And you will get away on those times. So one of those times, right, you know there's a headwind coming, you're in a crosswind, you know, make it hard for everybody and attack and get a gap before you get into the headwind. You see the end of the headwind coming and you're going to turn left to get to a crosswind attack. 100 metres out from, you know, the end of the headwind, you see a climb. You know, halfway up the climb, you're seeing everybody breathing hard attack. Then where everybody's under pressure when their heart rate is at their highest, that's the time to put, you know, to see how they're going to respond to your attack. And you don't have to be fresh to be doing that. You can be suffering just as much, but psychologically you'll be sending a message to them that, is he just having a go because he's fresh or Is he just testing? They don't know what you're doing and normally they'll think, far out, he's strong.

That's such a tough mind game, isn't it? Because you might be on your limit and the guy, and you're going, I can't hold this guy. But you don't know if he's on his limit either because one of you might be, it has to be on your limit or someone can't hold that high wattage for too long. So you got, you might start asking yourself, how long's he going to hold this?

Yeah, it's a real bluffing game, isn't it? And you know, unless someone's actually taking some, you know, some assistance, then they can probably hold it for as long as they like. But generally you'd, you, you'd say that, you know, if I'm riding at this wattage and this guy seems to be strong, as you know, I've just got to turn myself inside out to stay with this person. And you know, even a scenario on the weekend with one of our guys in a four stage tour, you know, the decision was on the hilly stage to ride with the bunch or to ride, to limit his losses, to ride to his wattage. And we had a big discussion about that. You know, what's the best scenario? There is no best scenario. You've got to actually make decisions about that as the race evolves and just check how you're feeling to what power you're riding. And if the race is, say it's a 15 minute climb and the first four or five minutes you're at your best five minute power ever, then you've got to either decide then to limit your losses and try and ride your tempo, or keep going to see if the guys last another minute at that pace. Because you never know.

You can't go in with a fixed mindset going, I'm just going to ride to power. I'm just going to ride a power.

No, that's the point I'm trying to make is you have to evolve your thought process as the race evolves and make decisions and change your mind based on what you see happening and how you feel. Listening to the sensations of your body is really important. And if you're getting sensations of fatigue, that's a really good opportunity to attack because, you know, if you're feeling that and you're, you know, probably one of the better riders in the race, then, you know, I asked you this question the other day was how do the pros who are all at the highest level beat each other. Someone's got to win, but they're all equally as good. So how does it happen that someone can get away from a bunch? Well, it's totally. They're making the most of the opportunity at that given time when the bunch is on their limit and they're on their limit, but they're just bluffing, basically, and getting an opportunity to get a break and, you know, making the person in the bunch who doesn't want you to get away. And I'll use the example of Sagan, when Greg van Avermaet in this year's Roubaix didn't want Sagan to get away, obviously wanted to be with every move. But that moment of hesitation when Sagan got away by himself and the bunch looked at each other for. Wouldn't have been more than 10 seconds. Sagan got 50 meters and that was it. No one. Sagan was relying on them, looking at each other and hesitating. And the bunches were all going, oh, I'm not going to chase, because it was a bit of a headwind there. And that was perfect time for Sagan to do that. And that's how pros beat each other. They're all equal in ability. They've got a, you know, tough as nail mindset. They've got all of. All the features that make them the best bike riders in the world, yet they can still ride away from each other. How is that possible?

I think that was. You just exactly described the situation perfectly, because I think it was Gilbert that tried to attack. And then Sagan might have led or he might have been close to just making sure they closed down that take, put in a big effort, then he went straight away when everyone was hurting and especially Gilbert, who was probably his main rival for the day. Yeah, exactly what you're saying. He's just the hardest point. He's gone again.

Yeah. And he's. He's doing that against your bears. One Roubai Vanava match, One Roubaix. You know, he's done it against previous winners who know, you know, how to win. So, you know, and I get. I get often asked the question, you know, I was in this race, the club race, and it, the road turned left and it was a crosswind and the guys rolling in the, in the echelon were just riding too hard. So I didn't go in the echelon, I just stayed single file and all of a sudden we got gapped. How is that possible? You know, the guys in the echelon were Doing it harder, surely? Well, actually, no. The guys in the echelon are getting a rest. They're doing 20 seconds on the front, and then if the echelon's five riders or six riders, they're getting four riders times 20 seconds, so they're getting 80 seconds rest, then they're back on the front. So they're getting a high intensity for 20 seconds and they're getting a rest. Whereas the guy who's in the crosswind single file, he's riding for two or three minutes at his threshold. And even the pros get dropped in crosswinds, and they're the best riders in the world. It's not because they're not good enough, it's because they're not in an echelon. And that's the difference. So in certain scenarios, you need to do certain things, and one of them is put yourself in the echelon in a crosswind. Don't be left single file. And the other thing in a single file is the guy in front of you drops the wheel, then you've got to go around him into the headwind and make up the gap. And that's nearly impossible. And that's why you see pro racers split. And remember Sagan, Chris Froome and their two domestiques broke away from the peloton in a crosswind. How's that possible? And it was totally because they committed to the echelon and the peloton didn't. And it took them 30, 40 seconds and it was too late. Four guys riding committed will ride away from a bunch who are not committed.

Yeah, absolutely. So, on that note, how do you win? How do I beat my mates? How do I win a race if I'm not the strongest?

Yeah, and that happens almost 50% of the time, doesn't it? The strongest guy got beaten again. And look, there's so many things that come into that. What are you trying to do? And you talk generally, just briefly. Sorry, not generally, briefly, a minute ago, about burning matches. So if your sole purpose is to win the race, you're not going to be on the front driving the pace with guys sitting on you. That's one thing you're not going going to do. You're not going to waste countless attacks that all the guys do is chase you down. If you try that a couple of times and it doesn't work, then that's it for that tactic. You need to actually employ some other tactics. One of them can be making sure that you don't sit in the wind at any Stage, you're hidden by riders, so the wind's coming from the right, you make sure you're on the left hand side of the peloton, the ring is coming from the left, you make sure you're on the right hand side. You don't go to the front at all until the last meter of the race. That's when you go to the front and you win the race. There are things that you have to have in your mind about getting yourself to the finish line in the best. So you've got to conserve all the time. So doing wasted efforts is probably the biggest thing that I tell our guys. If you're in a bunch situation or in a road race, don't do wasted show off ego efforts to show people, in fact, you want to do the opposite. You don't want to show your hand at all. It's like playing poker. The minute you show how strong you are, everybody around you then knows, wow, how strong is he? So in fact, I'm not ever going to let him break away because he's the strongest. Whereas if you don't show your hand until it really counts at the end and guys can't respond because they're too fatigued, that's when you show how strong you are. When you ride away by yourself.

How many matches do you say you have?

Yeah, I think five is about your limit. And when we talk about a match, what are we talking about? A high intensity effort that would have you really say you're doing interval training, you know, you would be struggling to repeat the effort, you know, without a 30 to 40 second recovery period. So four or five of those efforts, you know, that's, that's pretty much gonna really build up the lactate, make you really struggle to do, you know, repeated. So if you're doing seven or eight of those, the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth aren't the same intensity as your first, second and third. So that's when it counts most, is to break away with massive explosiveness and not let anybody sit on. And if you just do a half hearted match burn where you, instead of breaking away at 8, 900 watts, you break away at 400, 500 watts, it's easy for people to chase it down. And also if you do an 800 watt attack when people have already been riding for two minutes at 4 or 500 watts, that's a game breaker.

That just takes practice.

Yeah, and knowing when people are at their limit and having the balls to actually go again, that's the time to be really using your matches. To the most effectiveness. You, you don't want to waste those matches on ineffective attacks. Things like if someone goes up the road and it looks like they're really worthwhile chasing, I'm not always going to be the person to chase them. I'm going to follow the person I think who can't let that breakaway go. I'm going to get on their wheel and get a free ride. And that's not burning a match, that's making someone else burn a match. So the person who's attacked burn a match. The person who chases has burned a match and I've just followed. So therefore there's two of my big rivals have burnt two matches and I've still got all my matches in reserve. So they're tactics that you need to think about. Don't be the one chasing all the time. And in fact I hate that person who is the sit on chaser who just chases then sits behind you. What's the point of that? All you've done is drag the whole field with you back to the breakaway. Yeah. And burnt yourself. And you're never going to play a role in the finish because you're the one giving everybody a free ride so that you have to experience that before you understand that. That's if you want to bridge across a gap, you have to do it so strong and powerfully. If you're going to use a match, use it as high and as hard as you can so that no one gets a free ride. And you know, one of the interviews we're going to do down the track is with some, some of the pros who are riding in the masters bunches now. And you know one, one guy in particular, he's brilliant at it and, and some of the Saturdays I intentionally follow him. We have a little bit of a sprint at the end of our bunch ride and, and I've learned so much over the last two or three years in following his wheel and seeing what he does, how he goes about it and yeah. How he saves his matches for the right time in the right moment.

So yeah, that's the golden lesson right there is that you're saying exactly what you said at the start to get better at racing. You've got a race and the more races you do, you might be able to do seven or eight matches in a race or your four or five matches that you do have are a lot stronger and a lot more explosive because you've practiced them and you've followed guys and you've got experience and you've learned from the best and you're able to do it yourself and you condition yourself.

Yeah, yeah. But the key point too, Jordan, is I've put myself into situations with other people who are better than me. And if I just trained all the time and then turned up at a race for a one off race after, you know, if my a race was one race and I didn't do any races or any bunch rides in between, I haven't got any of that knowledge or skill set of noticing when someone's going to attack or seeing that change gears a couple of times. As soon as I see someone changing gears in front of me, I'm ready because they're obviously going to do something, you know, and if I see their body language of they go from the hoods to the drops, you know, and they just stand up out of their seat, I'm ready. You know, I don't want to give them five meters start because that means I'm in the wind. Whereas if I'm already ready to go when just watching hips movement up ahead or you know, just having a view of what's going on ahead of you all the time and anticipate moves and continually to check over your shoulder, left and right to see if someone's coming. They're all little tactics that I've learned over the years to anticipate moves and not get left stranded. And you know, if there's a I'm stuck on the left hand side of the road and someone attacks away on the right and I can't get out, that's a poor tactical move by me. You know, you always want to be in a position where you've got room to move away and respond to guys who you think are worth chasing. And you know, sometimes it's too late to do that.

That awareness, especially of the gears is so crucial. That's probably been one of my favourite lessons I've learned was trying to hang onto you up in the hills. And I had no experience of what gear I should be, you know, what I should be pushing. And I just took on the tactic of every time you would change, I would change. I just, I'll just go in the exact same gear. And you would never get those one or two meters on me or five meters because. Because I just made it so much harder. Losing five meters, fighting back. Losing five meters fighting back. You're just wasting so much energy compared to just being aware, being proactive. So then it's a smoother ride.

Yeah. The yo yo effect is burning matches continually and you just you know, if you're going to be a wheel sucker, you want to be a wheel sucker. And that means stay 2cm from the wheel no matter what the person in front of you does. And at the same time, your responsibility not to run into the guy in front of you. So you have to be really aware and alert to what's happening, whether they sit up or slow down or they're braking or the peloton up ahead is breaking. That's hard in a big bunch like the pros riding. And they're really skillful riders and they're still running into the back of riders because they're actually lost concentration for a minute because they're taking a drink or looking at the garment or talking to the mate beside them, and next thing you know, they've run into the back of someone.

That happened after stage one, that one of the Aussies who's in his first tour, Dave McKenzie, I think, asked him, how'd you go? Because there's a bit of mayhem in the last 20k, there's a lot of crashes. And he just said, it's unlike anything I've ever been in. And he's a pro racer. It's just they're all so good at getting that awareness and that's how they beat each other. Is that race experience, man. Practice?

Yeah, yeah. The race awareness of what's happening around you is so crucial not only for enabling you to get a better position in. And you talked about that before. And one of the biggest races I've been in was the world title race in Perth, where I think we had 300 over 300 in our peloton. And in the first, I think it was 40 kilometers, we rode up the freeway in Perth. And so it's massive wide road. And my whole tactic was I'm not going to move out of the top 15 and I'm not going to be near the front five, but I'm not going to be out of the top 15. That's a pretty hard thing to do. And I just kept moving. Every time guys would come from behind and 10 or 15 guys would come up from the left or the right and possibly put you back into 25th place. I didn't allow that to happen. I just moved myself across to the left or to the right and kept my position the whole time. And guys who were beside me, they'd come back to me five minutes later and go, it's taken me five minutes to get back here. I've gone from being beside you to 70th in the space of 30 seconds, he said, how are you doing that? And it's really being aware and alert as the peloton moves and as the road changes direction. And also the road goes left and right and the wind might be coming from the other direction. I'm quick to move across the other side of the road to get out of the wind and not be in that front wind position. So conserve, conserve until we hit the hills and then I'm happy to move further forward. But the awareness and the positioning is so crucial to conserving your energy for when it counts.

So what about using this sort of stuff not just in races, but the big bunch rides are what everyone looks forward to and really comparing themselves against other people, whether it's your group that you ride with on a Saturday morning or randoms that you ride with. There's different goals to a bunch ride. One goal might be to get fitter or one goal might be to win the sprint, wherever it is. So how do you make the most of that? And whatever the goal is, get yourself better. Yep.

And look, there's been a couple of examples for myself when I've come back from injury and I've joined into the Saturday bunch ride. Really at low level of fitness and not looking forward to the Saturday bunch ride because I'm going to be hanging on. So the mindset of what am I trying to achieve today? I want to improve my fitness, so I'm going to put myself out there with the possibility of getting dropped. So that's my mindset or what's my mindset this week? I'm that far behind and I want to get a long endurance ride with a bunch of. So I'm going to conserve and I'm just going to sit in and not I'm going to ride like a race. I'm just going to conserve. So I'll make sure I get the four or five hours with the bunch and not end up riding solo. So there's two different mindsets on one bunch ride there.

And if you sit in on an endurance ride every week, you're not going to get any better at having stronger matches.

No, no. But you'll get the endurance right in and I would recommend that you did that in the beginning. And then each week you try and put yourself out there a little bit more and more each week. But if my sole purpose is to beat the bunch, eventually I'd be putting myself out there every week. And look, if you're right into a program, most of the bunch rides is the one day where you're allowed to have a freedom to go for it. There'll be sections in our Saturday ride. We have sections where I say, right, oh, we're in the hills, we're doing this. Go for it. Every man for themselves. In this section of the ride, we were riding on the flat, we were rolling turns. No, be controlled, roll turns properly. But, you know, but in this section of the ride, this is where you really get your fitness up. Go for it. That's the competitiveness and that's the value of our bunch rides. And look, I would be, you know, really pushing people to make sure they don't shirk it. And I'm forever telling guys on the way home from our bunch rides, don't miss turns. You know, stop hiding, get out there. And in fact, I've almost certain that I'm going to bring in a rule that if you stop rolling turns and you sprint at the end, that's a no, no. You need to be able to roll turns all the way to the end and then that gives you the privilege and the right to be able to sprint. There's nothing worse than guys who have trained really well, ridden in the bunch, never missed a turn, come to the sprint and get all these guys from the back in our bunch who haven't even been seen for the last 20 minutes winning the sprint. Well, you know, I just don't think that's on.

You're not doing yourself any favors either. Like it's, it's a short term win, but you're not long term. You're not becoming a stronger rider.

Yeah. And the idea is to use the training rides, as in the bunch, to get fitter and, and practice sprinting when you're actually tired, not practice when you're fresh. I don't mind if someone does that once, but to do that continually week in, week out, that's not really what I'm, what I'm really trying to coach here. If you're trying to do that as a practice session where you want to be fresh and you are practicing like a race situation perfect. But, you know, it's not something I would really encourage people to do. You want to practice when you're tired, practice sprinting when you're tired, practice rolling turns when you're really on your limit. And yeah, I'll just do one more. And I'm forever saying to guys, yeah, you're going well, keep going. Do another. Keep going. Don't drop out, you know, and just keep going. Past this certain point this week, you know, you Only made it to here last week. Go further than this week, right to your drop, you know.

Yeah, no, that's really cool. I think on that note, we'll kind of wrap it up there. Obviously, when it comes to summer and crit season, I think we'd like to do some kind of racing reviews and take to go through some scenarios of what happened in the races, what you saw from your race or other races around, and you go, here's what you do, because that would be really valuable. We have had some people sending some questions and some topics which we're going to address on other podcasts, stuff about new nutrition. We have got some more interviews lined up with, like you said, ex pros, which would be really good. But on the racing front, was there anything else you wanted to mention that would be valuable?

Yeah, just look on the crit. The crit racing is probably one of the ones that people have the most fun in during summer. And almost everybody look. The beach road, the beach road, the bunch road rides are like crit races. It's all about positioning, tactics and really, you know, really getting a good result at the end. And one of the things I'm really adamant about getting across to everybody who's listening to this, especially in the crit races over, say, the summer season, which is where they mainly held, is, you know, you have to learn how to win those, those crit races and it's no good putting yourself in. And the example we have, we have in Melbourne, we have Sandown races, where every Thursday night, every Tuesday night, there's crit races. And these type of crit races are happening all over Australia, all over the world. And if you're wanting to be a better racer, you need to learn how to win and you need to learn from a lower grade. You might be the strongest rider in that lower grade, but you still actually have to win the race with good tactics and not just by being the best rider. And that will make you a better rider when you get to. To the higher levels. And I think it's important to people to understand that, not put themselves in higher levels where they've got no chance of winning and never experiencing to use their tactics. All they're doing is hanging on. I would encourage people to start in a lower grade and have the idea that they want to learn how to win the race and then move up to the next level with all that in their armoury of race tactics, of winning, race tactics. So, yeah, I think that's probably a good, a good note to finish on.

Perfect Apart from that, we will see you on the next episode. Keep sending your questions in again. You can send them on the anchor app. You can either type them or do a recording. If not, you can email me@jordanrivellocoaching.com that's jordanrivellocoaching.com you can ask them anonymously or you can send us your name. We will read out your question. Apart from that, I'm looking forward to the next week of the Tour. It's a rest day today, which is good for me. I can get some sleep and.

Hit the ops. Yes. So very exciting. A couple of races coming up and yeah, the GC positioning. Greg Vanava Mart has had a great run in yellow and, you know, how long can he hold on for? Yeah, look, the race is wide open and with Richie out of the race now and Dan Martin losing so much time and Iran losing so much time. Yeah, it's never over till it's over. You never know what's gonna happen.

Who are you rooting for? I'm devastated he's out because I was really rooting hard for him.

Yeah, I haven't had much time to really think about. Look, I'm a real Dan Martin fan. I just love the way he goes about it, being Irish as well. And he's just, he just puts himself out there and, you know, he's been so injured and he's crashed again and he's still, he's still putting himself out. At one stage, I saw him on the front of the, the Paris Roubaix. It's not his kind of race today, but here he was sitting on the front. So I just love the way he races and I really, you know, I don't know whether he can ever win a Grand Tour. He just doesn't have the time trial ability at this stage. But, gee, I hope he. I hope he does well. But, yeah, that's my, my heart says that, but I don't know if that's going to be. What about you? Have you got a. I think, I.

Think I've really got an affinity for Dumoulin now, especially with our love of Giant Sunweb team. Giant being a big sponsor of Trevello, coaching and then getting the experience which we've spoken about over in Belgium, getting to see the pilot scenes of the Giant Sunweb team. And I found myself, when he got that punch the other day, really upset and I was really rooting for him to get back. And I think that's natural when you're going for someone like that. I really hope he does well, so he's gonna be my pick to go for now.

One of the disappointing things was get him behind a Mini. Why can't Giant Sunweb have better a bigger car sponsor? His head was above and he's still got fine 20 seconds. I reckon they should have given him 20 seconds.

That's a good note to finish. Thanks again for joining me and answering all the questions. There was some golden information in there. And we'll see you on the next episode.

Okay.