5 Unusual Ways To Become A Better Athlete

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You've got your host, Jordan Donnelly here, and on my left is my dad, head coach of Trivalo Coaching and former Australian Ironman champion, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode, we're going to look at five out of the box ways that you can become a better athlete. And what's something that you could do that others aren't doing to to gain a competitive advantage. What's something that will give you a good bang for your buck? But first, as always, our starting segment. Dad, welcome to the episode and what are you grateful for?

Thanks, Jordan. Definitely the last experience that I've had recently. I'm so grateful for friendships and the friendships that I made When I was 17, 18, I got an opportunity to.

Spend some time with those group of.

Mates and that's 45 years later.

And when we meet up with each.

Other, we carry on like we were.

At uni and we don't carry on.

That much, but we just pick up where we left off and we might not have seen each other for four, five years or two years or six months and it doesn't matter. We are accepting of each other, our weaknesses and our strengths. We know them very well because we've spent a long time together and there's been periods where we haven't caught up for ages. But the friendships we made then were really good decisions. And in our uni cohort there would have been over 100 people and probably selected maybe 10 people who I chose to spend some time with, selected those people who I thought were like minded. And so the friendships are really important thing that you should really think clearly about who you want to spend time with. Because when you get to my age, you haven't got a lot of time.

Left and you don't waste your time.

With people who are going to make yourself unhappy. So thinking about who you want to spend your time with, that's going to.

Bring you the most happiness is what I'm grateful for. And that was reminded to me in.

Spades with the period I just spent with some of my better mates. So, yeah, very grateful for that.

Awesome. I love that one. My one is I'm quite grateful for supermarkets. I think it's amazing how we can just go down to the local store and pick up all our fresh fruit vegetables. I like going to the butcher or the seafood section and getting fresh meat there. I just think it's, yeah, unbelievable system we have and we something we do every single week. But to have such good, fresh food available all week and to be able to eat really well, I'm really grateful for it.

We're so fortunate, aren't we? When you think about what's happening around the world, and not just with COVID but the availability, we have to just not struggle. And there are people in Australia struggling. I'm not saying that, but it is so such a good country to live in.

Yep, absolutely. Our next segment is what's caught your attention.

Well, last year in 2020, in the Tour of Lombardia, there was a really horrific crash. And one of the Belgian riders who was going to be the next best world rider with Matthew van der Poel and Wut van Aert.

And I suppose when I think about his Palmares, Remco Ivanopol won the world time trial and road race as a junior. He also played soccer for PSV Anderlech and was in the junior Belgium World cup team. So this guy's a talent. And that crash that he had, he broke his pelvis and, you know, really had bad lung injuries.

It was a horrific crash.

It was.

Yeah, he hit the side of a.

Bridge and then fell a couple of meters down a crevasse and ended up, you know, really.

It was really a scary. It was like he didn't die.

And to. To watch.

What's caught my attention about that?

What, you know, people crash. So. So what's so interesting about that?

Well, this is one of the. One of the. Probably the. The best riders up, you know, in.

The last 10 years to come through cycling.

And he's. His career's almost taken away from him, and he's at a crossroads with what is he going to do about that? And that's the thing that's caught my attention following his Instagram story. And if anybody has a chance, look up Remco Venerpol and just see how he struggled from day one, moving a few inches to moving a meter two weeks later, to moving four meters four weeks later, and how slow the progress was and how he suffered and how his mindset was unbelievably focused on returning to be the best he could possibly be. And if, and if he did everything that he was supposed to do and he still couldn't ride his bike, then at least he knew he tried. And that was the impression that he was trying to. He wasn't showing off any social media. He was just, I think, trying to inspire people that no matter what happens to you, you can find a way to still, try to get the best out of yourself. So he's lining up to the Giro d' Italia this weekend, and they're already giving him favourite status, which is really unfair, but that's what people think of his talent. And he's kind of deflecting it, saying, oh, my goal is just to see if I can ride with people and keep up. You know, he's quite a modest guy and it's just an outstanding story, and I can't wait to see how the story progresses. He's got the rest of his cycling career to go, and whether he's successful or not, I just take my hat off to him and say, you know, chapeau, well done. You are an incredibly resilient person. And the dedication you've shown, the example you've shown of. Of not, you know, Sookin and. And saying, I've got an excuse not to, you know, he's just turned every stone to make sure that he's prepared. And it wasn't that long ago, nine months almost. And here he is lining up in a Grand Tour.

If you didn't follow his story personally, it's understandable why people just hear his back and go, oh, he must be a favorite. But if you're following it, you're going, are you crazy? The fact that he's at the Giro is. Is remarkable. And if you watch some of those videos he put up, it's really raw. It's hard to watch how. How far he's come back from. And the fact that he's there is. When I was watching those videos, I couldn't believe it. And you just think it took. It must have taken incredible mental toughness to be where he was and to get back so painstakingly slow to now be back at the elite level.

It was a debilitating journey, but just.

Shows your consistency and just chipping away.

And setting PBS, whether it's moving 2 meters or 4 meters, you know, just.

Challenging yourself along the journey and listening to good advice and getting the best assistance and help and reaching out, all those things that are really important for your personal growth. And every person should be thinking about those things, whether it's because you're injured or because you're struggling mentally or. Or you just want a better program. You know, you just need to learn more and reach out and be inquiring and, you know, there's a lot to learn from this lesson.

Yep, absolutely. That's a really good one. What has caught my attention is there was an unbelievable 70.3 Ironman, 70.3 race. Actually don't know if it was Ironman or Challenge can get confused between the two companies, but I'm sure they don't like that. But none of the.

It's a half Ironman.

Yeah, exactly. None of the athletes seem to care whether it's Ironman or Challenge. It's more of a rivalry between the companies. But it was in St. George in America, and it was an epic race, to be honest. The bike field, the top 20 or so guys were all together as one big pack, the entire bike. And then the run league just had so much drama in it. And there's a lot of points to bring up from this 70.3 that I want to ask you a few questions about it. But basically, Canada's best athlete, Lionel Sanders, and one of America's best triathletes, Sam Long, came down to a sprint finish in a 70.3, which is pretty epic. And the last. The last 5K, they're sort of neck and neck and they're really just kind of pushing each other, one edging in front of the other. It's like a classic running race, but you forget that they're at the end of a 70.3. It's. I haven't seen a race that close that often and you could see the mental toughness. And Lionel Sanders won it and he would have been, you guess, a better runner, but he. He was so emotional when he crossed the line and straight away he just said, best battle I've ever had and toughest win I've ever had. And so there's a few things I want to talk about from the race. Um, one is that Sam Long after the race, so he came second, ran exceptionally well. He spoke in an interview and said that, you know, pre Covid, he was not a stronger runner, um, and he was a really good bike rider, but he was quite tall. And so he always got told that he's not going to be a good swimmer because he's coming, some coming from so far back with swimming, and he's not going to be that good a runner either. Um, which I don't understand. Most, Most really good runners can be quite tall and lean and he's got a really nice style. But he said over this whole Covid period, he really focused on his weaknesses and he used the period like we've spoken about on the podcast to take that time and use it to his advantage and be able to improve his swim and improve his run. And he's showed that where he's kept up with one of the Best runners in the scene with Lionel Sanders. My question is, a lot of these athletes talk generically about improving your weaknesses as well as your strengths. And we've spoken about it as well. But how can you fit both into a training program? Because when you spend more time on your weaknesses, you're automatically taking time away from your strengths. So if he wants to. If someone wants to improve their weaknesses, do they have to sacrifice a little bit of their strength for a period? What's the best way to go about that?

Well, the first question I ask is.

When you say you're improving your weaknesses, what actually are you doing? Are you adding more sessions? So that's the first question. And if the answer is no, then what actually are you doing? So you're actually saying to yourself, well, I don't think the program in this particular example of running is getting me.

To where I want to go. So I would say that's more what they're doing.

They're actually realizing that the program they're on is not benefiting them as much as it should be. So they're changing their program. So if you stayed on the same running program and continue to improve, then is that you working on your weaknesses?

So what I'm trying to get at is there's no way you can work.

On your weaknesses without changing something in your program. So you're sort of saying, well, we're running programs. Crap.

Yep.

Yep.

You're saying unless you change something, then you're not working on your weaknesses.

Yeah, yeah. So. So does that mean adding more pro sessions or doing the same sessions but changing something in the program? What I'm trying to get at.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Could you do both? Add more sessions and change something?

Well, you.

You could. Yes, of course you could add more sessions.

But is the point you're making spending more time on your weaknesses isn't necessarily the answer?

That's right.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So spending more time on something is not necessarily gonna make you better. Running more isn't gonna necessarily make you better. Running with more specific goals is going to make you.

Yeah.

A better runner. Yep. So at the end of the day.

Is you, you know, you're doing a.

Half ironman or an ironman. So it's a half marathon or a marathon.

How do you improve that? And we've spoken so much about having strength at the back end. So that would be something I would.

Be saying, you know, if you want to perform better, you need to be stronger as a runner. Yeah. That doesn't mean go and run Faster intervals. It means going to the hills and run more strength work.

That perfectly answers my question because my question was based around how do you spend more time on one thing without sacrificing the other? And you're saying it's not about time, it's about the type and quality of training that you're doing.

Yeah, you need to change up something and sure, you can add more and eventually that will work by adding more volume, but it could also have a detrimental effect where you are actually going to get tighter and not improve.

Yep. Nah, Perfect. Some other questions that popped up from this race were the. There was commentary after the race about.

The fact that a lot of the.

Pros are frustrated because there was this long train of 20 guys spread out by 10 meters. And Lionel Sanders, the guy that won, he's a poorer swimmer. So he was at the back at the start and he was trying to make his way up, but there was no gap, you know, and he couldn't overtake a train of 200 meters because he was just blowing himself up. But he could never get there. And then he would see a gap open up. And so he tried past four or five guys, but by the time he got there, the gap was closed, there was nowhere for him to go. And it was this constant race of just guys trying to overtake each other 10 meters at a time. And obviously people go through different periods in the race where they are going faster and slower. So he just said it was, it was a bit laughable how, how they're all going. And they spoke about some solutions being that fields have to be less packed with elite riders, so you're not having as many because those packs are just too big. He spoke about longer draft draft zones, so 20 meter draft zones, which I don't understand really quite how that helps as much. But I thought, what if they change endurance distances so 70.3 in Ironmans to become draft legal? So everyone's still on a TT bike but draft legal? Would that be something that you would be interested in seeing?

It's exactly what happened with sprint and Olympic to a point. Because there was so many guys of equal ability, it was impossible to be separated correctly in drafting.

So they just threw their hands up.

In the end and said, well, you just have to ride together. And all that did was create a gap between the really crappy swimmers and the guys who were good. So that meant if you were never going to win a triathlon if you couldn't swim. And then it changed it from an equal swim bike run to you had to be a great swimmer. You didn't have to be such a good bike rider. Cause you're already with the pack and it's easy to sit in and do nothing. It's not easy, it's still easier.

And it was just the best runner one. That's actually how the sport has evolved as a profession. So do you want to see that in endurance where the bike is just a pack of riders and the guys who can't swim fast don't make that pack and they form another pack just like a bike race.

Yeah.

It's got merit. But that's not the original intention of triathlon.

So you know, do you want the pros to just have whatever is going to be more watchable or more enjoyable? Just like cricket's original intention was to be Test cricket five days and now we've got two sets of 20 overs and it's gone away from the original intention but still successful.

And people want to play it.

Yeah.

So I'm all for variety and change. And if people still want to do, it's a lot harder in an ironman for people to all be equal. They're going to be some people who are going to struggle. But as you know, the person who's on the front of the bunch at.

Some point he's going to be unhappy to be there because he's not going to drag 20 guys around for 90k.

So.

So he's gonna wanna sit up and let someone else take a turn.

And he's mad if he doesn't.

Cause he's actually going to get to.

The run so much more fatigued than the rest of the field. Not from his fault, but because no one can pass.

So there's a whole lot of little.

Things that could be, you know, cause.

Issues with the decision you make with this.

So I'll definitely have a trial where you know, you can draft on the bike over 90k.

Yeah.

And it just comes back to you have to improve your swim so you.

Don'T miss the pack and you have to be an unbelievably good half marathon runner.

Yeah.

So it changes the sport again.

And that's okay.

Sports evolve and draft legal.

Half ironman could be the next step to prevent that. Because at Kona on the big day where everybody's at the world championship so all the pros are there, you do have long lines. But because the swim's so long, there is gaps and becomes, you know, who can get out of the water quicker through transition, transition quicker, get a two minute gap. So the guys chasing have to actually work hard, and then they form the echelon of 150 meters with 10 guys. And the guys behind have to do the same thing. They have to change their tactics. They have to talk to each other and form an echelon so they can work hard to catch the guys up front. So there's so many things that the pros would have to actually work together, which is, again, against the whole idea of triathlon, which is an individual sport and you're trying to do this by yourself, but because it's a professional sport. But you look at the age group is there's so many packs. I've seen photos of Kona from long distance with just looks like a Gran Fondo ride with 500 people.

They can't really stop that.

No, it's near impossible to get pinged there. You've got to be pretty unlucky.

The big positive is the growth of the sport and how popular it is and how many good, elite athletes are in the same category.

And look, the only thing I can see is to put a cap on the entrance and you can only have 20 pros.

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, that's interesting because my thought process was, you know, in an Olympic distance where it's only a 40k ride, it's really easy for everyone to stay as a pack and no one will risk doing too much work. But when it gets to 90k or 180, it will become more like a pretty epic road race where there'll be a lot of bike racing tactics. And, yeah, people won't be pulling big turns at the front. Guys at the front will try to be conserved, which means packs behind can catch up if they work together. So. But you're right, that does completely change the sport because it's no longer. It's an individual sport, but not an individual time trial.

That's right. One aspect's changed.

Yeah. And last. Last point on this was in that epic run. Sam Long used the tactic of he was catching Sanders with 10k to go or something, or 8k to go. And Sanders was saying after he could hear him coming and then he was 10 meters behind, he sprinted and he just flew past him and got 20 meters on him. And Sanders said, I thought he was just a gun runner and I'm done. And I tried to surge and I was kind of panicking a little bit, and it sort of worked, but he couldn't hold that. So he eventually slows up and slowly Sanders made his way back to him, and then the rest of the that last final bit they were constantly surging. It was almost over armed efforts. So they were surging going above the threshold to try and break the other person and then they'd both relax and kind of settle and recover a little bit. And what do you think of those tactics in something like a high five ironman? And this is a bit different because we're talking about pros, we're not talking about the age grouper. I don't think you'd ever advise an age grouper to do that. But what do you think of those tactics, those surging tactics in a half ironman and could you use that to your advantage as an age group if you are a strong over under runner compared to just the same grueling pace?

Well my go to mantra is always to and that's the athlete I was. I was not good at going over threshold and then recovering and then going again. Steady state was what got me as an endurance athlete. And I had a great ability as you know to hold power within 4 watts with really practice pressure on the pedals where you know and running I could run 331 to 332 pace till the cows come home. And, and that's what was my strength. The minute someone in a bike race surges it was going to put me under pressure. And so I had two choices. Hold my nerve and ride to my power because I know they can't hold it, you know, unless they're way better rider than I am and the same as a runner I need to know my opposition. If they're a 2 hour 50 marathon runner and they're now running at 3:10 pace I know that their best time so it's knowledge of your opposition. They can't hold it so let them go. And that's something I should work on in training to get better at surging. So the two answers there, you know, understand who you're competing against and if they're, if they're a 242 runner and you're a 250 well there's nothing you can do about it anyway because they're going to run away from you whether they surge or not. And you need to actually up your ante and your game in training to be able to withstand that type of running style. You know, practice it. Just don't practice even steady state riding running or both. So that was a weakness of me and anybody who knew that would have a huge advantage over me. But obviously that's not something that you would you know, give as you Know, I wouldn't be saying that in an interview. I'd be saying, you know, I wouldn't be mentioning. That was hurting me.

Yeah.

You know, the guy put in a surge, but I was able to get back and that would be turning it into a positive.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's a really good question. At the end of the day, you've just got to understand what your strengths and weaknesses are compared to the other people. So knowledge of other competitors is quite important.

Yeah. And, and if you don't know them, not going to that panic mode. And yeah, I guess if they go flying, just think, well, if they're going that fast, I'm not gonna be able to keep up them. And if they, it's not their ability, they'll slow down eventually in my steady state could catch them.

Yeah.

A really calm person would say, Now I'm running 3 minute K pace. Well, that's a 2:11 marathon.

Yeah.

And we're an ironman.

Yeah.

You know, I'm just, I don't know those numbers. I'm just making it up. But, but you know, my, my common sense brain will go, this is unsustainable. So I'll ease up. And making decisions based on, you know, really solid information that you're getting from yourself.

Yeah.

You know, you know what pace equals the best. You know, the best ever marathon in a triathlon might be a 239 by Jan Frodeno or 238. I'm probably faster than that now, but yeah, it's incredible.

Yeah, yeah.

Pace. But if someone's running 232 pace and it's not Jan Frodeno, you're pretty guaranteed.

That he's going to blow up.

So, you know, you're making decisions based on information.

Yeah, it's really good information for bike riders if they're ever doing a tour with it on a hill stage or any hill race where there's a pack and someone wants to surge above the power and you're going to be asking the same questions. Can they hold that power? Are they that much of a better bike rider that they're going to get away or do we just trust my power number and we can. Yeah.

And one question you ask is how long is the hill? Is it a two minute hill? Well, I'm gonna go with him. Is it a five minute hill? I'm gonna go with him, but I'm gonna see what I'm riding. If it's a 10 or 15 minute hill, he can go for as fast as he likes because this is the best I can do for 20 minutes. And even if I do a PB of 5 or 10 watts, I'm still not gonna be able to keep up with him. So limiting your losses and maybe trying.

To fight it to get back another way is your only other option.

Yeah. Great answers. Right into today's topic, five unusual ways to become a better athlete. And the first topic, I see you do a lot of weird things in your training on the bike, which is kind of what gave the idea of this episode. So point number one is the games you play with power, and you mentioned it before, why you're such a good steady state rider in terms of steady state in this context, meaning you can just hold the same power for such incredible lengths of time. So talk me through some of these weird games you play with yourself where you.

Yeah, I suppose the main, the main thing, when I was training for the most recent style of races that I decided to enter, and I don't like to use myself as an example, but I'm always experimenting on myself and for the last 15 years I've been concentrating on bike races where it's unpredictable riding. And that was my weakness over under, because I came from a triathlon background to go into a bike race where guys aren't riding steady state. They're absolutely trying to attack and then sit and recover and then attack again and look for opportunities in crosswinds. And so it's such a tactical event compared to a triathlon. So I had to change my whole training so that I was practicing over under type, reinventing myself. But it was so good to go back to training for a steady state race, which is the triathlon, the aqua bike and the swimming bike, or just the team's bike event in the 70.3. So it was like my bread and butter. And I go back to my tried and true sessions where the ability to.

Hold steady state power slightly above your range and slightly below, but not gassing.

It like you do in a bike race where you could be, you know, 80 watts above your, your range and 10 watts, you know, 100 watts below your range. And whereas in a triathlon you're, you're really trying to stay in that middle, not spike it and not drop it. So, so one of the things I practiced for years was to try and.

Hold power within 5 watts. So, so not using the three second.

Information data on the bike computer screen.

Where if I'm trying to ride, say It's a zone 2 ride where I'm trying to ride 40 minutes at 210.

Watts to 215 and not see any.

Numbers at 216 or 209.

That's a really hard thing to do for a long period of time.

The concentration level, it's not hard physically, but pedaling to keep the pressure on the power, the power on the pedals is the thing that you're concentrating on. So you've got to keep your upper body still, not pull on the handlebars. Keep the 360 degree pedaling action as smooth as possible. And then I would throw myself on.

The rollers and do that exact same thing.

So do it on a stationary trainer, do it on the rollers and go outside where there is no flat bit of road, whereas the rollers are dead flat. So all I'm worried about is resistance and pedaling and there's no wind. So then you take it to a velodrome and try and do it. Try and ride in that zone.

Why am I trying to do that? I'm trying to do that because on a 70.3 bike race of 90k, I want to, if I was doing the run afterwards, number one, I want to.

Not have spikes so that, so that I get off fresh as possible. And also I can ride well, the end of the bike ride. So they're two main reasons that I'm.

Not trying to spike things like we've.

Talked about in a few podcasts six or seven podcasts ago, where, um, I'm.

Really trying to hone in on minimizing the power that's gonna hurt me the most for the endurance of the, of the, of the whole event. So I wanna be at the top of the range, I wanna be at 90%, but I wanna be within 5 watts of that. And of course outdoors with a headwind far out, that is not easy to do. But if you've practiced it in training, you can ride it 90 to 92% into the headwind when you, when it counts for five or 10 minutes or however long that you're in the headwind for. In some cases it's 25 minutes where you're trying to hold.

And then all of a sudden there's.

A rise in that headwind. So all of a sudden now you need to be at 295 to 298 watts and hold that so you're really.

In control and that's going to give you a better outcome.

And if I know when I'm getting ragged is when I look down and I see 310 and then I see 270. And I'm thinking, oh, get back to pedaling. Yeah. You know, and I'm going to get a better outcome. That's why the main reason I'm doing it is because it's going to enable me to ride the same way the.

Whole way through and in fact, be.

Stronger at the back end.

Yeah.

So. So if I don't have that already, that ability, it's. It's a weakness that I've got. And I'm really trying to coach people to get that as a strength, their pedaling action to push the power within. So be so accurate. The example would be.

An archer. He needs to be able to hit the 5, 7, 9 or 10 and be able to say, I'm aiming for the 5 and not hit the 10, you know, or a dart play.

Just get it close enough.

Yeah, it needs to hit double. Double 20. Yeah. And that's how accurate you want to be so that you're really finely controlling. And as a triathlete, it's not about the other competitors, it's about you and what your ability is over that distance. And if someone goes past you, it doesn't make any difference to me. I'm not going to up it. I have done that in many races and it's cost me dearly because I've started racing someone else's plan.

So it's irrelevant what other people are doing on the day.

So that is one of the little weird things that I practice. And in that same effort, I'm also practicing how controlled can I keep my heart rate? And if I know and I've practiced this, if I sit up on the rollers with no hands and push the same power, I'm astounded at how much my heart rate goes up because of the anxiety of riding no hands. I've put an extra flush of adrenaline in. Oh, I'm risking something here. I could come off, but it affects my heart rate. So it reminds me of how my mindset needs to be. Not panicking at any stage. I need to be calm so that I don't spike my heart rate. As you know, the more times your heart rate beats over that journey, the tighter you get. So let's not do that. Let's keep our heart rate as flatlined as possible. So holding power, that doesn't have spikes.

Because every time you spike, when you're.

Going, say, 92%, all of a sudden you ride 110% for 30 seconds, what's the result with the heart rate? It spikes. And that's like burning A match. So that's one of the definite ones that I use. And people just might laugh at that. But it's absolutely helped me as a, as a. As a cyclist.

It's definitely obscure, but it makes perfect sense. And the most obscure part about it is that in most hard sessions, we do this anyway. Cause we've got a number to hit. And so we're trying to hit that. We're focused on that. But it's in the easy sessions where we just relax. Doesn't really matter whether we're pushing a hundred watts, 150, 200, we're not really focused. Whereas you're taking these easy sessions and concentrating for 40 minutes. You know, recovery sessions are boring enough as it is on the trainer, and I guess this is a way either to make it more entertaining for yourself as well. But that level of concentration in a recovery ride is not easy. And that is amazing practice going forward.

And I think that's one of the reasons why I do it. I know the reason why I do it. But one of the positives is it makes me get through the session, you know, oh, far out. 45 minutes, holding this ridiculously low power. It's like, you know, this is so boring, but it's not to me. I've challenged myself with something in the event, in the session, and, and, and boy, the session goes so quick because, you know, I'm concentrating on my pedaling action, even though it's ridiculously low power. But the cadence I'm trying to hit is 100 RPM. And that power number.

And as you mentioned in that, one of the bonuses, bonus, unusual ways to become a better athlete we're going to mention, which we've mentioned plenty of times before, is the rollers. And you just. You keep saying how much value there is in the rollers in terms of learning to keep your pedal action smooth. And you always say it forces you to pedal properly.

Yeah, rollers with resistance is actually better than just rollers.

But if you don't have rollers with resistance, rollers without resistance is okay, and it's fine for recovery. But I do use the rollers with resistance for some of my other sessions and on the TT bike in the TT position. And don't try this at home because it is not easy to do that. So you're actually balancing. So it gets you the feel of what you would be doing outdoors. Why don't you just ride outdoors? But there will be many reasons why. Because we can control the session. It might be raining. You want to do specific Things where you're not worried about traffic, etc, etc. So there's many reasons why we're using them. So when we use them, there's so many benefits, which is one, it feels like outdoor as compared to a stationary trainer where you're locked in. But I can absolutely use the rollers to concentrate on everything that I'm trying to practice. And. And it's not easy because if you.

Start pedaling with a poor stroke, you.

Will start bouncing on the rollers and you will end up off the rollers.

So it teaches you to ride smoothly. And so that's what you want to do in triathlon or cycling. You want to be as smooth and you look at the best riders in the world or the best triathletes. Beautiful pedaling action where the up phase seems equally as effortless as the down. Whereas you see, you know, some new riders and they're using their whole body to bounce their head forward. As they're pushing down on that side, the head's following it, the body's following it. So you want to have the upper body still and just be like a metronome under your legs, whether it's fast or slow, whether it's Fred Flintstone style or riding, or whether it's just, you know, relaxed, easy pedaling. If the camera was looking from just above, they would think that you're just sitting in a chair, but underneath the legs are moving, but there's no body movement. Yeah. You know, and that takes a little bit of core and so much in.

In the rollers.

You know, I can't believe how much core it's. It's actually instigating because the minute you move slightly off, you could actually be.

On your way down on the rollers.

So. So, yeah, I use the rollers a heap in my training. Yeah.

And it's not something I tell people a lot, but I'm telling everybody now. But. But it's helped me to become much better smoother peddler, better bike rider, and therefore get the results I want because I've got better control as a rider.

Good points. Point number two in the five unusual ways. And this is an interesting one for us because it's to do with what bike riders love, and that's coffee. But it's interesting for us because we both don't drink coffee, whereas there are a lot of studies that promote the benefits of coffee just from a general perspective. Uh, and as always, everything is in moderation and lots of people push the line and they hear that coffee's good for you. And then go as nuts as they can on coffee. Um, but there are lots of studies showing the benefits of caffeine and there are more and more studies coming out about the benefits of caffeine for training purposes. And there are examples of improved performance for one, especially in a training session, which can help you. Um, and also recently fat oxidation benefits where having a coffee prior to a training session could help fat oxidation. So you're actually burning fat in the sessions, helping obviously yourself get lighter and training yourself to be fat oxidated as well, which Dr. Harry has told us in previous podcasts is a good goal to have. So I would like to clarify some of these suggestions from caffeine with someone like Dr. Harry to see the proven benefits of them. But this is just one way that you can try and use something that people love to your advantage.

Yeah, and we've discussed that with him. So we've got his, his scientific evidence as, as a reason for us to.

To actually do that. And you know, because I don't drink coffee, neither do you, whenever I take a gel with caffeine in it, I immediately get a benefit. It's clear to me there's, you know, there's, it's obvious and, and I wouldn't have coffee because it's going to be detrimental to my performance because it, it gives me an adrenaline rush so much that I start getting a shake. So I've actually tried to have coffee because I like the smell of it and I don't mind the taste of.

It, but it's actually harmful to my performance.

So I've got to get my caffeine different way. So if I wanted to get caffeine, and it is an advantage to have that as a fuel source. So we're allowed to use caffeine, it's legal. So it is a huge advantage, especially to those who don't drink coffee. It's as Harry's told us, we get more bang for our buck because our body can respond so much better, because it's an advantage we're not used to.

That's a big thing that everyone needs to remember is that everyone will oxidize, digest caffeine differently. So not everybody's going to be the exact same. But you had an interesting experiment a few years ago in your crit racing where you started just filling a second bottle in a one hour crit race because you only needed one bottle. So you put a second bottle just with a tiny amount, I don't know, 100 mils or 200 mils of Red Bull or vodka. And then with five minutes to go on the race or eight minutes to go, you take that. And.

Yeah. And I also tried to experiment before a time trial.

Taking some Red Bull.

Yeah.

See what it did, whether it sent me too fast at the start, I mean, I'm still controlling my power, but it just, you know, I went flat halfway through the race or so that was kind of experimenting on myself to see, to see how it went. And I definitely felt that the caffeine from whatever source I was getting, no matter what stage, within 30 minutes I got a different feel. And did I need it at the start of the race? No, I didn't. I needed it more at the end. So I changed that experiment. I thought, well, this is, this is actually, I don't need it here, I need it and I can't have a drink of this. And, and most of the time on a time trial bike, I've only got one bottle, so couldn't carry it anyway. I didn't want to have just Red Bull. Yeah, that's not what I want. Exactly. So, so I ended up, you know, making sure that I had a caffeine gel at the end so that I was getting it from. And the, the actual Red Bull didn't sit well with me.

Yep.

So I stopped doing that because of, of that. So everybody needs to experiment. That's what I'm trying to say in training.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you, you'll get to know what your body can do, can utilize well and, and as you know, the food that I do or not do and you know, we can explore that if you want.

Yeah. Well, I know some pro athletes that, that pro running athletes that take two shots of black coffee, so just trying to get straight coffee caffeine in them, you know, half an hour before at 800 meters and they're really just trying to amp themselves up for this 800 or 1500 because it's a short 2 minute or 4 minute effort and they just want to be as almost legally juiced up as possible. But yeah, moving on to point three, which is also what you just said, actual food, nutrition. And it's again, Dr. Harry has spoken about this hack on the podcast. We. You've obviously done a lot of work with him individually about, and you've done this all your career about adapting your body on endurance rides and to be able to do endurance without fuel.

And that's a key asset to my racing is I have my nutrition, so that's not going to impact me in a negative way. So I, I Can never get to the end of the race and go, I stuffed up my nutrition. That's never been something I've said in nearly 15 years. The warning is one exception, because I think the main reason I didn't go so well with the nutrition was because my inability to consume by the pressure and the pace of the speed of that event. I wasn't able to drink when I wanted to because of certain situations in the pack, which the guys who just under warning would know exactly what I'm talking about. It is hard in a pack of elite riders to get the fuel in that you want in certain scenarios when you're under pressure a lot. And I always say, you know, get your nutrition in when your bike's going faster. Some of that would be downhill, so, you know, the bike was going fast the whole time, so, you know, and felt like you were really under pressure to get in drinks. And I was concentrating on other things so much that it wasn't the fuel I had, it was the fact I didn't take it was the problem. So the fueling method I've got works, but I just didn't execute it. So that'd be the only time I think that I could say, well, my fueling stuffed up. It wasn't. It wasn't my actual amount, it wasn't the amount, but it wasn't. Wasn't my strategy of nutrition that cost me, it was that I didn't actually consume enough. So going into all these events knowing that I have a really good plan that works and I'm not gonna fade because of lack of poor nutrition is such an advantage, and you feel so confident that, you know, each time I put a number on, I've got my fueling down pat. As long as I consume it, I will be able to perform at the top of my level that I expect to. So that's a key to. And I've practiced that and experimented and it didn't. Didn't just happen in one or two weeks. I've. I've honed that in over 15 years. And I'm still. Because I'm getting older, I still need to adjust, you know, to it for different requirements.

Yeah.

And. And as we say, if you use the example of motor cars, if you. If you burn the petrol by accelerating out of lights, rather than just gradually accelerating a lot, you will burn way more fuel than the person who's. Conservative, person who hammers flat out will keep burning the fuel. So that's the same scenario in a cycling race or a triathlon, if you're ever forever spiking, you're going to burn more fuel. And if the intensity of the event is way higher than you anticipated and you don't have enough, you're going to be short. So you'll burn more fuel by riding at a higher intensity. It's just the same as you if you have a lead foot in a car.

Yep.

And one thing for you is that obviously in important races where the intensity is high, you've got your fuel down pat. But you also practice on long endurance rides, taking in less and less and seeing what your body can cope with. And that's something that Dr. Harry encourages with a big warning sign and a big warning label that you may well bonk. You know, and lots of athletes do when they practice this stuff.

Going Hunger flat's not enjoyable.

No, not at all.

But you're actually trying to find the line and that's why you need to experiment in training. And I'm forever doing that and just risking. And, you know, I know it's coming and far out. I've got 20k to go of this ride. It's getting hotter. You know, I'm going to have to stop and get refueled because you can.

Have stuff with you and just choose not to do it for as long as possible.

And I know I'm safely. I've got everything in my pocket. I just have to get the water from a tap and refuel and I'm good to go. And within five minutes I'll be back. But I've learned where my point was.

Yeah.

So I needed more than that. So that's something that I really. I encourage people to do. And, you know, I've got it to a point where I've never eaten really anything that I have to chew in the last 15 years. It's either been two bottles full of the mixtures that I use or a gel. And it's never been any piece of food. And I'm talking before the race, during the race and after the race. It's just making sure that I've got everything that I've used in the past and it's held me in good stead. And you've got to do it. It's individual. It's not something that I can say, this should be doing this because it may not work for you.

Dialing this in is a huge advantage. Point number four is this is a really interesting one. You cannot underestimate the value of going for a walk.

Yeah.

And I hate walking because I'd rather go fast.

Me too.

And I'd rather swim fast. I want to ride fast, I want to run fast.

Often if I'm walking somewhere, I'll jog. If I'm walking to the train station or something, I'll jog instead.

So what are the values of walking? Well, it really does allow you to recover at a rate that's controllable. You just can't walk fast without actually going to a jog. So. So you got to have the mindset of this will help my recovery. And. And I use it as an opportunity to do two things. Normally, people I see listening to podcasts and listening to music, which I think is fantastic, a way to catch up on stuff. And I would encourage you to do that. But for me, it's the opposite. I don't want to hear anybody. I talk to enough people all day and I don't want to hear anymore. I've done enough reading. I just want to have my own thoughts. So the benefits are it will help my body recover by having blood flow.

By moving at a very low intensity.

It stops me from going fast because I have to run or ride.

And that's not what I'm going to do.

That's not the goal.

Dog gets some exercise. That's a benefit, but it enables me to have a clear thinking period where.

I'm not concentrating on numbers, I'm not looking at heart rate. I'm just thinking about things that are going to help me normally about what am I going to do next when I get home. And normally I'll try and do it in the middle of the day or lunch or before work or I generally do it where I'm tired from work and I need a break. And it's 15 minutes or 10 minutes, sometimes 20 something. It's not a long walk. But I come back refreshed. And I know it's actually helped me refresh recovery for the next session, but I actually come back mentally refreshed. So I've got great ideas and I can't wait to get back to my desk to start implementing the things that. So it's going to help you in your everyday life as well as recover for your program. So they're the two things that I think that I really encourage people to walk. And the sideline is that if you've got a dog, it's great, great opportunity to give the dog some exercise.

Yeah.

And don't forget that our bodies are designed to move. And this is a little bit different if you're on your feet all day working a trade or Any other reason that you're on your feet, this isn't as necessary. But if you're at a desk all day, if your job requires you to sit down, then it is vital for you to move your body properly and go for a walk. The new saying is that sitting is the new smoking. They're worried that sitting down all day is actually as damaging for our health or long term as we're finding out smoking now is, which is disastrous and scary to hear for bike riders. Especially if you're not running ever. If you're not doing the extra walking, you're just sitting all day and then getting on your bike, you're not actually moving your body properly because the position of the bike isn't the best for you long term and you need to counterbalance that. Even if you're a triathlete and you're getting your running in running, you know, you might not be running with the perfect form because it's, it's a high load on the body and naturally running, it's hard to run with good form. But walking, it's much more controlled and you can walk with good form. And so just doing that for your body is so beneficial. And if you wanted any more evidence, it's, you know, Team ineos, the most advanced science based sports team in the world have pro have walking as a part of their programming for their athletes.

Yeah, it's encouraging everybody in their program to make sure they walk. And the point you made about cyclists alone, we're not talking about triathletes athletes now. We sit at our dinner desk, we sit at our office, we sit everywhere and then we sit on our bike and at what point are we standing up like humans are meant to and for how long? So you actually need to get your body to actually have some where some exercise where gravity, you know, is, is in control of the whole body. And when you're swimming and when you're.

Riding, gravity has no effect because you're being held up by water or your bike.

So.

So it is important that you have some sort of resistance against gravity by.

Standing, you know, straight up. Yeah.

And I personally love like to walk after a bike session or especially after a bike swift race because your legs are just so short and just feels like you've just got pools of fatigue which may be the lactic acid or something just sitting there. And so also I struggle to sleep if I don't go for a walk after as we phrase, for example. So getting off the bike and then going for a 10 minute walk cool down is just unbelievably beneficial both physically and mentally.

Yep.

And what you said before about the.

People who have a physical job where.

They'Re absolutely walking up and down ladders.

Or, you know, having to actually walk from here to there, Landscape gardeners or.

Mowing lawn, there's so many examples of.

People who are on their feet all day.

You are not in this category.

We're not talking about you because you're doing enough walking.

In fact, it's amazing that you can train if you've got a job like that. If you're an electrician or a builder or a painter or a gardener.

If you work in a hospital and you're on your feet all day.

Yeah. A nurse who's walking up and down.

Up and down stairs, doctors, you know, there's so many people who could cover.

20K in a day. They're not the people we're talking about.

You need to actually rest when you get an opportunity.

Yep. Point number five and this one, quite simply, mindset. Now this is something that is so important, but we never actually train who sits there and trains their mindset. But we know just undoubtedly how much mindset has an effect on your performance. And all the pros know this and lots of pros employ psychologists, sports psychologists, high performance mindset coaches to help them perform. Because you cannot be able to say that how much the mindset plays a part in your physical performance. And this is proven by the fact that at the Olympic games, you know, a guy gets to the table tennis final and he's hit a million balls in his life, yet he chokes up and he can't hit a ball in to save his life. It happens in tennis all the time. You know, these, these guys have hit a million balls throughout their 25 year.

Pro career, yet can't serve out the match.

Yeah, they can't serve out the match. They double fault, you know, and golfer.

Who'S standing over it, a one foot putt to win the championship misses.

Yeah.

Why is that possible?

Yeah. And he could do it with his eyes closed. In fact, any other day he could literally, you know, he could literally close his eyes, walk up and hit it in. And that's because the mindset's getting in the way. So you have to understand this and have to start asking yourself, okay, well how can I improve this? And the first thing you can ask is, how can I control my self talk more. Because that is one of the major things that is impeding performance from a mindset perspective. So often we use the We've used this before on the podcast, actually. We use the example of what movie are you playing in your head? And whenever you are thinking about performance, you are playing some sort of movie in your head. And it's either going to be a positive movie or a negative movie. And often if you're feeling really anxious or nervous about the performance, you're going to. If you ask yourself, what movie am I playing right now, guarantee you're playing a losing movie. And I guarantee you that person who's trying to serve out the match is playing at a fault movie. They're. They're worried about hitting a fault.

You know, they've got a line that's missing the hole.

Exactly.

And they're playing the wrong visualization.

Yeah.

And it is called visualization. And there is such power to this. And without having to go see a sports psychologist yourself, you can just start asking, okay, what movie am I playing? You know? And start practicing playing better movies and start performing a session, asking yourself, okay, what's my self talk doing right now? And what kind of movie am I playing? And then changing that and seeing what the results are and experimenting on yourself. And this is just a bit of an unusual thing to do and something that we don't often do, but it's worth starting to practice yourself and asking yourself and challenging yourself, can I get better at this?

You're spot on.

And you've taught me this, which I'm so grateful for, because it's something that I didn't value enough. And for all the people out there listening, it's great to be taught something by your son. And I put this into practice. And the event that I did, it was one that I actually didn't think. I didn't know that that's what I was doing. But after the event, I realized, because you drilled it into me, that I actually did it without even thinking. And it was the event where I crashed and where it was a 90k ride. I crashed in the first kick. I felt sorry for myself.

I was sore.

It hurt. I got on the bike and the discussion I was having in my head was, will I keep going or will I? Or is it too painful? And so when I had two or three minutes of this to and fro ing, I decided that I could still pedal. And I was riding while I was.

Doing this, but I wasn't riding at.

The numbers that I should have been.

Because I was in conflict. I was. I was playing a movie of. I was sitting on the fence movie. Am I able to keep riding or Am I not?

And. And then when I decided that I.

Was going to ride properly and have a go at riding properly, I started.

Playing the movie that you told me.

To, which was concentrating on my pedaling. Pressure on the pedals, the power.

What's the wind doing? I didn't think about the injury from that moment on. And I was actually quite amazed afterwards about my own ability to tune in to what was a positive movie. Because you were drilled into me. Things you can't have any control over, what use are they to you in.

The next period of time? And so I straight away said, well, if it's going to affect me at the halfway point, I'll get off. But it wasn't affecting me, so I don't have to spend any more time thinking about it. But it was affecting me. But I didn't realize that till the end. But because I was so playing the right movie of what am I doing in the actual event. It was an incredible example of I.

Had controlled my mind to think about.

The things that were gonna help me achieve the goal that I was there for. And only after I got off the bike and I realized I couldn't walk did I realise, wow, that was pretty powerful.

Yeah, that's a classic you example. Because that situation probably shouldn't. Shouldn't take place when you've fractured your hip. You know, if you fractured your hip, you've got internal conflict. It's probably okay to be asking yourself, is this dangerous or not? But as you said, you turn around and said, well, if it's. If it's too painful, then I'll get off later, but right now I can pedal and see.

Yeah, look, the example would be if my. If my tibia and fibula were fractured.

And I couldn't pedal, then that would be.

Yeah, clearly I wouldn't have done that. But.

But I didn't know I was fractured. I had a fractured pelvis. I didn't know that. And it just felt sore, like a normal crash. Yeah. And because I'd never broken a bone in my whole career. Yeah, I didn't expect that that had happened. Yeah, so. So it's just. I'm just saying that this is.

Yeah, definitely.

This is really something that you've. You've shown me how powerful it is. And. And now that I think about it, there's been so many examples that I've had during my career that I. I did that without even knowing that I was doing it. And if you become aware of it, then it becomes easier to think about that. And you Go into that mode, because that's why we train to swim, ride and bike run better. We're practicing those events. Why aren't we practicing to have the right mindset? And why do we neglect that?

And my much more common example is when you get home from work and you've got to get into training and you've just got no motivation. You're tired, and you just want to relax on the couch. And when you think about training, you are most likely running a really negative movie about it. How much it's going to suck, how painful it is. And we've spoken about one easy tactic to change the movie is to think about your goal and think about your race. And as soon as you. It's. Your whole physiology changes. As soon as you start imagining that race, imagining being on the start line, your adrenaline amps up a little bit. You start to sit up a little bit more. Your eyes are suddenly more awake, because five minutes ago, you couldn't even fathom getting on the bike because you were so tired. You just wanted to sleep for a couple of hours and have dinner. But suddenly you start thinking about these things. You change the movie in your head. You're thinking about and playing the picture of what that race is going to be like, what it's going to feel like when you're there. And then suddenly your whole physiology has changed. You've got energy to get on the bike and train, and that shows how powerful it is, that it literally changes the state that you're in.

It's an amazing example. And I've used strategies like we've talked about this, putting your socks on and taking a photo and sending it to your mate. And already you've committed because you've made yourself accountable and that's encouraged him to do the same thing. You've got an example of one of the endurance rides where one of your mates was just going downhill at a fast rate, and you were able to talk him out of giving up in that part of the day, to turning it around, to almost wanting to do extra. Yeah, tell that story.

Well, yeah, he basically. He bonked. And it was the end of an endurance ride. And we had. We had 15 minutes left, 20 minutes left, and he bogged so bad that I wasn't sure we were going to make the last 15 minutes, you know, and we're only a couple of K from home. But he was pedaling slower and slower, and I was thinking I was gonna have to push him home. And he was. His body language was just completely down at the Dumps. He was so frustrated that he had bonked. And I was laughing because I just said, you're gonna laugh about this tomorrow. Because when it, when you're in that flat state, nothing is funny. You know, you really, you're not having a good time. But it was funny for me because I knew that we're almost home and you know, you're going to be okay. But I just asked him questions purposely trying to get him to focus on something different and focus on how fit he's been before. And in fact, this was pretty funny because he was a month before that he'd had a month of training, but a month before that he was at probably his peak fitness and peak form. And so I was just reminding him of how it wasn't that long ago that he was absolutely flying and that, you know, he would get off this ride, this endurance ride and go to a half marathon run. And he started to perk up a bit and said, yeah, I was doing that, wasn't I? And after just asking him to think about that in a kind of indirect way, suddenly his whole yeah again body language changed and he started to half wheel me and started to get ahead of me and was so alive that he said, do you want to go do more? And he was kind of joking, but he suddenly just felt so fresh. And how can you go from one state five minutes ago to that totally fresh state when five minutes ago you're in hell just by asking different questions and thinking about it in your head. And I think that shows the power of this.

And I think he actually, because he hadn't been on the ride for quite a while, he had anxiety about the whole ride and how he might not be able to keep up and he might be under pressure for a lot of the time he was playing out that exact thought process. Whereas he should have started saying, I can do this bunch ride with my eyes shut. I've done that much training to this point, I've still got a base of fitness. If you had played a different movie in his head, he wouldn't have even mentioned to you that he was going hunger flat. You know, he's just played out the role perfectly.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a good way to finish off. There are some bonuses that we've said before, but we thought were worth repeating with regards to in kind of unusual ways. And we just want to quickly mention that no matter how many times we say it, it's still undervalued. And an out of the ordinary trick is to do more strength training. And you've said it so many times, go to the hills and do more runs, do more hill riding, yet a lot of people make excuses not to do it. And so although we've said it many times, it's a pretty mainstream answer. If you're not getting any heels in your training, then that is a surefire way to become a better athlete, especially.

As a runner and as a triathlete. You want to be as strong as you can at the back end of the marathon. I'm sick to death of saying this sentence, but it is available to you, but you all choose not to. So why. So it's being said on this podcast one more time, go and run on the hills. And I'm not saying the day before the week before your event. You need to do this as a planned performance over a period of time where you start with a little bit of hill running and gradually improve. And I have to spell it out, that's exactly how you should be doing it. Yeah, but the hills are miles away.

From where I live.

Well, get in your car and drive.

And don't keep coming up for reasons.

That you can't do it. And start by doing it once a month and then progressing from there. I'm giving you 100 examples of how.

You can play the right movie in.

Your head to actually make it part of your program. And some sessions, we don't actually want you in the hills. Some sessions we want you to do an easy run. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about more the endurance run.

Where your option is to go and run the flat course or run in the hills, and you're going to get better bang for your buck. I've told the story many times of.

Why we moved to Belgrave in the.

Dandenongs so that I could become a.

Better runner at the back end of my marathon in a triathlon. And it also helped me as a marathon runner. And well, before I knew it, I became a good runner.

And because of the strength training, perfect.

That's a great way to finish. It's been another massive podcast. As always, thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next time.