#6: Epic interview with Ex Pro Cyclist Tim Jamieson

All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Trivelo Coaching podcast. The podcast where we talk about everything from cycling to triathlons and all the advice in between from our head coach of Trivelo coaching, which is also my dad and the 1988 Australian Ironman champion and three time Australian Masters cycling champion, Jared. Welcome, Jared.

Thanks, Jordan. Great to be here. Looking forward to another exciting episode of the podcast.

And it is exciting because we have a special guest on today, a member of now the Giant Subject race team, but he's got a pretty heavy history of high accolades.

Yeah, look, it's great pleasure to introduce Tim Jamieson. Tim's been riding for probably 40 odd years of his career. He's done some amazing things over his journey. He's been a professional for six or seven years overseas. He's actually finished his master' last couple of years with a win at the world title road race in Perth, which was fantastic. So, yeah, welcome Tim and good to have you on board.

Thanks, Gerard and Jordan.

So, Tim, we want to start off and we want to go right back to the start of your journey. Obviously we love doing these interviews because we get an insight into what it took to be a professional and your whole journey. So we want to take it right back and go back to your early days. You grew up in Tasmania, correct?

Yes, I'm from a Tasmanian family, grew up in Launceston and as some of my earliest memories just been around cycling races. My dad was an old cyclist and after he finished his cycling career he became like an administrator of the local club in Launceston. Like he helped them build a bike track and I can remember as golly, some of my first memories is carrying pieces of tinfoil around with my dad and him and a group of mates were building a bike track in Launceston. So, yeah, so right back as long as I can remember, I've been around cycling and yeah, just grew up with it basically.

So what was your first experience, Tim? Did you get on the track straight away or did you do some road stuff? And how old were you when you actually very first started seriously thinking about racing?

Yeah, I can remember being around cycling and track cycling as a spectator and just a fan as a young kid. So I don't know if you grow up maybe in Melbourne at the AFL type of footy, but as a kid in Tassie, I grew up and we were going to cycling races mainly on the track track. Cycling in Tasmania was really massive. Massive crowds. Used to have a six day race when I was a Kid and we used to go to six day race at York park and that's where I really got interested in racing.

Was there someone in particular in Tassie? There was a standout that drew the crowds or was there a group of really good cyclists who were some of the. Some of the guys that you aspired to?

Yeah. Look, so as a kid and the guy's still around, like living legend of our sport in. In Australia and globally. Danny Clark. I can remember growing up and watching that guy win every race that he rode in. Pretty much in Tassie on the track. And he's like, career spanned from when I can first remember. And he still races now. Clarkie. Clarkie's in his late 60s, but I can remember thinking riding around on my dragster pretending to be Danny Clark and the kids because like he just was amazing as a cyclist. Could win any type of race on the track, endurance sprint. So yeah, he was probably the guy, but also my godfather. I grew up in a cycling family. My godfather is Graham Gilmour. So Graham was when I started watching cycling and track cycling. Graham was an Australian scratchman, He won the Melbourne Warnable and he was a professional six day rider in Europe. And from when I can first remember, he wasn't in Tassie, he was living in Belgium being a six day rider. And he was probably another guy that I thought, shit, it would be really cool to be able to do that. And that's probably the other sort of guy that inspired me to ride my bike for a living.

What in Tassie was so inspiring? I mean, it's such a cold place to ride in winter. Is there something. Was there just. Just a group of guys that. There's always someone who's leading the pack. And was it just Danny or was it a group of guys?

No, I think the whole cycling culture. So I don't know whether you would. If you've grown up in cycling, track cycling particularly, there's a series of carnivals between Christmas and New Year in Tasmania. And I can remember going to them and like they get 25, 30,000 people at Christmas Day event, New Year's Day event. And that was kind of like, I don't know, going to. Yeah, a festival basically used to have sideshows and wood chopping and running and sprints and then they'd have all sorts of cycling events. And that's really what got me into cycling, thinking that I'd like to be able to do that in front of 30,000 people.

Yeah. So early on you've got yourself A track bike, you're on the track, you're having some fun. In some junior races, did you realise that you had a little bit of talent or was it, look, I'm just one of the riders each weekend. Was there a time when you thought, geez, I'm not parodies?

Yeah, again, I don't really recall. I just recall the reason that I did it was because a lot of my mates were who I'd grown up at these carnivals as a spectator, had all started racing and I thought, well, might as well do what my mates are doing. As a kid I was kind of pretty well developed, so it's quite strong as a young guy. But I can't really remember too much other than racing track and just going out for a ride with my mates and enjoying myself. That's kind of what I can remember. I don't recall whether I was really good at it or not. I think I started racing when I was 11 or 12 years old. But I don't really recall a whole lot about those first few years because I was still playing afl, footy, basketball, soccer, hockey. Like all kids, you know, have a crack at everything. Particularly there, sort of in that sort of first few years, I don't think I really actually trained. Used to go to some track races and just experienced a whole lot of different sports as a young kid. Wasn't until I was sort of about, I don't know, 15 or 16, you started getting in state teams and going to national titles. I got second international title.

Underage.

Yeah. Under 16 I think it used to be. Under 16 was the first road race. No. On the track. Yeah, scratch race on the track. And I was the first year in that age group, so I was racing guys a year older than me. And when you're a 14 year old racing 15 year olds is big difference. Is a big difference. And I kind of, I think I fluked it. But anyhow, I run second in the Australian title and that's when I probably first thought, hey, maybe I can go okay here in this track business. Yeah, so that's sort of probably some of my earlier memories. I can remember though, going out riding on a Sunday morning when I started the track train, because I didn't train as a real young guy and there'd be in Launceston 40 riders. You know, this is back in.

There's a bunch.

Oh yeah, on a Sunday. And this would be back in the 70s.

Yeah.

Showing my age a lot here. But yeah, I would have been riding in the 70s and.

And there would have been some really good quality, road hardened riders.

Oh yeah.

So it could teach you how to ride your bike.

Yeah.

And pull you into line pretty quick, wouldn't they say?

Yeah. So again, I can remember just even in the local scene, guys, Neville Allison, probably never heard of him. Neville rode like four or five sun tours in the 70s. Graham McVilly, another guy from Tassie who was a winner of the Sun Tour two or three times. And numerous Australian scratchmen and stuff on the track who you'd go out training with. And I can remember again when I was racing early days, restricted gears and these guys are men racing on whatever gear they wanted to. And you go out training with them so, so hard just to keep up on a restricted gear, your cadence would.

Be through the roof.

Yeah. And they wouldn't give you any quarter. They just sort of just keep smashing.

You and not turn around to see if you're still.

Oh no, no, no.

If you got dropped, you got dropped.

And again, I said before, like I remember all this weird stuff. One of the things I can remember as a kid about being just riding really hard as a kid. I would have been, I don't know, 14 or 15. When I first started training properly. I was with this group of guys. These guys are riding the Sun Tour and stuff who were really strong riders. And we were. We used to ride out to Delaraine and back. I don't know how far that would be. It's like 50k's each way. And they'd ride out easy and come back like crazy. I remember riding back with them one day. I used to suffer from bleeding noses a lot and I got a bleeding nose. There's blood everywhere, all over my face and I wouldn't stop for it and neither would the blokes. And I remember getting back to the finish and I remember Neville Allison saying to me, and I respected Neville. Cause he's a really, really good rider. He said, good job, boy. That's a wonderful.

Yeah, that's a great accolade, isn't it?

Yeah, it was from like when you're 14 and someone who's. I don't know how much older than me Neville would be. He's probably 15 years older than me. Really experienced, good rider.

Yeah.

You said, yeah, good effort, boy.

Well, that's interesting because that set the scene and that's kind of the sort of rider you are. And look, I've. I've ridden with you now for. Since we got you back into masters riding for the last, I don't know, five or six years. And you are renowned for being one hard nut and. And sort of giving no quarters to anybody who's, you know, suffering bad luck. You keep up or drop off.

So what age did you say? All right, I think I can make a career out of this. I think I can become a pro and start moving towards that.

Yeah. So if I thought about it, I don't think I actually ever had a. So, as I mentioned before, one of my inspirations was both Danny Clark and Graham Gilmour, both of them who lived and raced in Belgium and rode track races. What I'd found out by the time I was 16 or 17 again, I was racing with guys like Dean woods on the track. So Dean was a junior world champion in the pursuit point score. I run second to him in an Australian championship in the point scorer as a junior. But I realised that around then that I didn't kind of have the zing or the zip to be really, really good on the track. So I started moving a little bit towards road. But I kind of knew when I was reckoned 15 or 16, that I wanted to try to see if I could be a professional cyclist. I kind of knew in the track.

Or on the road didn't matter.

I didn't know. I kind of didn't know. I just wanted the race. What I kind of have in my mind, or I recall, is that I used to have, in a circle of people that I knew or the people that I used to hate, people that said, I wish I could have, or I wish I had that opportunity, or if I had, have. These are older guys. And I always used to think, well, Connie, you've got that choice. If you want to do something, no one's gonna do it for you. You kind of need to do it yourself. And I always thought that, well, if you want to make a career or be a cyclist or be the best you can as an athlete.

You kind.

Of got to do it yourself. No one's gonna come and do it for you. Because sort of, when I was sort of growing up through this formative years inside, there was no Australian Institute of Sport or anyone who was even coaching anyone. It was kind of like, if you don't do it yourself, it kind of won't happen. And I'm kind of always that with most things. So I think if you're not happy with something or if you want something to happen, no one's going to do it for you, so you kind of got to do it yourself. And, yeah, I can remember thinking from 15 or 16 years old, that kind of. I wanted to try to be a cyclist.

Was there anybody who was actually helping you with some sort of, hey, Tim, you need to do this this week. Were you just joining in the group and thinking about how you could improve yourself, or was there some guy over there that was helping you along the.

Way in those sort of. Again, my memory's not that great around it, but I can recall my dad. Dad had been a cyclist all his life, so he obviously. And he had coached and trained people. And I can remember being 15 or 16, being so keen for someone to tell me to go out and do this session or do that ride or go hard up some hills. And he never would. I kept saying, how far should I go today, dad? And he'd say, how are you feeling? Oh, yeah, I'm a bit tired. Well, you train how you feel. That's what he used to say.

That's great.

You train how you feel.

That's gold.

And I kind of didn't know what that meant, but I actually learned what it meant and I still do it now. So if I don't feel any good, I don't train hard or don't ride hard. Actually don't train really that much at all anymore. But I can remember as a kid, it took me quite a few years to get my head around what he meant, and then I worked it out.

Great advice really, isn't it?

There's a fine line between being lazy and knowing all your body telling you that you kind of need to have a rest. Yeah.

In tune with your body's, really. Yeah.

And that's what I've learned probably out of his philosophy of train how you feel, but don't be a lazy prick, you know, like so. Oh, yeah, I'm tired today. I won't train too hard. So I train or I ride hard when I feel good. And if I'm a bit off color, whether I'm a bit sick or whatever, I don't ride hard.

Once you started getting a little bit of success on the track and on the road, and you're in your 16, 17, 18 years of age, you've told me some stories over the times we've been riding side by side, and it's not just about getting fit on the bike, was it? You really went hard with exploring as many opportunities to improve your cycling, didn't you? Yeah.

Yeah. So initially, I can recall sort of, I don't know, I made a junior world championship team when I was 17, and that really woke me up to exploring more than Just riding your bike. And before we did the world champs as a junior, I think we spent like a week or two weeks at the AIs in Canberra. There's a guy called Dick Telford there, he's pretty hard to athletics coach.

I think he was from wa, wasn't he?

And at the time there wasn't a cycling. So we just went to Canberra and did a week's two weeks training there and they did things like VO2 tests and skin fold tests and he just straight out looked at me in the face said, you're too fat.

Wow. Is that a bit confronting?

Yeah. For a 17 year old kid who sort of made his first national team and thinks he's going okay and probably a month out from a world championship that I've been training pretty hard for. He just said, yeah, you're too fat.

Wow.

Didn't pull back anything. And that was pretty confronting. And then we did this VO2 max test and I blasted everyone because I just raced them because I was the last one on.

And you knew their scores?

I just knew their score so I just beat them.

Out of curiosity, do you remember your.

I would not have a clue. Would not have a clue. This would have been.

That'd be good data.

Early 80s.

Yeah.

And it would have been punching okay at the time, I reckon. 17, 18 year old. Yeah. But I got no idea. Numbers don't mean anything to me. I wouldn't have a clue. But yeah, that was probably the first. So I went and rode the world championships and did really well and did some racing as well. That was actually happened to be in New Zealand. No. Maybe in the early 80s it was.

Yep.

And but after that his words were still ringing in my head.

Did you do anything about being too fat?

Not then, no.

Did you say how do I reduce the skin fold?

What I did was this was sort of getting I think the world championships for the back part of the year, you know, September, October I did those. I raced a two week stage race in New Zealand afterwards and rode really well so it wasn't affecting me terribly. But what I did over the summer is. So that next sort of pre season. Oh yeah. I really explored my diet and just was then become. I just educated myself about what was superfluous, what wasn't, what not to do. And I kind of got on a real. I don't even know the name of the diet that I went on. But my mum was really helpful, she was interested as well in just healthy lifestyles. And so you became pretty strict with what you did? Oh yeah, yeah, man. No, but I lost like 8 kilos. Wow. Over that next summer.

So Dick was.

So I went from somewhere like. I don't know what. I couldn't even tell you what I would have been, but I would have been, you know, 78, 79 kilos. I went to 72 and then all of a sudden, man, did I take off as a road rider because I didn't lose any power and yeah, I could climb all of a sudden and still sprint.

So Dick's words were.

Well, yeah, kind of. He probably wouldn't have had any clue that he had. Had any influence. But yeah, it changed, almost changed my physiology quite significantly through. Yeah. Just starting to watch my diet. And then the other thing that I kind of started exploring was making sure. Probably not at that time, but the other thing I started exploring was the psychology of getting the best out of yourself.

Getting my head right.

It's kind of not that easy. I got a terrible poor level of concentration.

That's why I don't like time trials.

Yeah. It's one of the reasons. Yeah. Because I'd actually drift off. I'm out riding. I ride at tt. I'll be five minutes in and I'll be thinking about, I wonder what'll be on the menu for night for dinner. It's not really the best thing to get you going very fast if you lose concentration. So again, I just read some books, talked to people about how they maximize their potential and used to hate kicking myself and I still do now after races when, you know, you could have been kind of better. So what I never wanted to do was have any regrets after any races. So I explored. I still remember the name of the book. Sporting Body, Sporting Mind. It's like probably a 25 year old book. But those principles that that book talked about is the way I race.

Right. Yeah.

So not ever leaving anything to chance and making sure every time that you throw your leg over the bike with a number on that you explore every way you can to extract your maximum. That's kind of what in a sense, essence the book talked about. And yeah, I spent then probably four or five years trying to really perfect my mental approach to both training and mainly racing. I've never been a really, really great trainer, but I've become a pretty good racer.

Yep, yep. You think those early days in those big bunches with the experienced riders really crafted your knowledge of how to sit in a bunch, how to, you know, was that the thing that really set you apart from a lot of other guys who maybe hadn't had the experience of being in those really top riders. You're riding with top riders as a young guy.

Yeah, I reckon I remember too, being on restricted gears, unless you actually knew what you were doing, you were straight out the hoop anyway. So certainly as a young guy before I was. I think even as a junior when I was a kid, you were on restricted gears. So I probably rode with men with a handicap.

Yeah.

Even though I was probably strong enough to ride proper gears, I was riding with men for three or four years where I'd have to be really crafty to be able to stay with them.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I expect that it kind of did. But I don't know, I think there's also a bit of a sense about riding and you can see guys who know how to ride. I think racing guys that are a lot better than you, you just kind of have to as well. And I did a lot of years racing guys who were a lot better than me. And yeah, just where to ride in the bunch and where to sit under the wheel and where to ride up in the gutter and how to do that. If you don't do it, you just out the hoop.

So.

So how did you turn pro? How did you move from Tassie to Europe?

So I can remember. So the first sort of before I decided. So in that sort of period when I was racing juniors and stuff, working a job, happened to be a painter. So it's really interesting. I can remember why I got a job as a painter, because family friend who was a cyclist happened to have a painting business. So I went and did a painting apprenticeship when I was a kid to start off with. But really it didn't matter what the work was because I had my sort of sights on racing for a job. So really being a painter and working as a kid on the tools was just to get some cash so I could save up to get to Europe. I did that year in juniors where I raced. Okay. And then pretty much the next year I'd saved up enough money to get a air ticket and I can.

How old were you, Tim?

18. I went to Europe first time. I was just 18, I think just over a year.

Tell me about the contacts you had set up and what was waiting for you in Europe. And, you know, the red carpet was obviously laid out for you. How did you go about getting to Europe with contacts?

I don't know how it even is now, but certainly in the. I think I went 84, 1984 or 85, somewhere around there for the first year. And the only place you could actually race in Europe without a sponsor was in Belgium, so. And again, because I knew Graham, family friend who had been living in Belgium for years before that. He'd since retired and gone back to Australia, but he still had lived in Belgium for 10 plus years. So he kind of knew some people and they were kind of quite influential people. I can remember that he wrote three letters for me, actual handwritten letters that he put in an envelope for me and wrote the guy's name on the front. And one was a guy called Patrick Surcoo who's the most successful six day rider ever. He's won more six day races than anyone ever.

That's a good start.

Including Danny Clark. Yeah. At the time he was the Belgium national track coach as well. He wrote me a letter to Eddie Merckx, he's probably the best road cyclist of all time. And he wrote me a letter to a guy called Ted Wood who happened to have been his mechanic. And I had these handwritten letters.

Well, you just happened to run into them, were you, Tim or.

Pretty much, because he didn't know where they lived either. I don't think so. He just wrote their names.

He couldn't ring them onto the mobile either, could you?

Couldn't ring them or link them. None of that. So give me these handwritten letters.

So other than that you had no contact?

No.

So you caught a plane to Brussels. Brussels, Belgium.

I went to Brussels, into Belgium.

You saved up money from painting with.

My saved up money from being a painter. And I can't even remember how I got to Ghent. So Ghent's the centre of Cylinder.

Yep. You had a train.

I imagine maybe you unpacked your bike and rode. Yeah, I don't recall. I actually don't recall, but I remember. No. I actually didn't even take a bike with me. That's right. I actually saved up enough money that I thought I'll buy one of those fancy European bikes.

Ah, far out. You went without a bike?

I didn't even take a bike with me, so didn't need to unpack the bike. Which was actually a real mistake in hindsight because I just thought, you know, Ghent being the centre of cycling, I just walk into a bike shop and buy a great bike and buy it cheaply. Turns out they didn't have my size and I ended up spending the first two weeks without a bike. Oh, no.

But you've gone to Ghent with no accommodation?

No. So I found a YMCA and went and stayed in the YMCA for a.

While and Your Flemish would have been fluent by then from Tassie, wouldn't it?

Yeah. None Never lived out of home before. And in a country where I can't speak the language.

You were the ymca. Ymca? And you have to cook for yourself.

Yeah. That didn't have cooking facilities, the ymca, so you had to eat out there. And that was a temporary thing because I actually did have a contact for a lady who had like an apartment underneath the street level. So I ended up staying in the centre of Ghent with a lady called Rosa de Schnurck, who really was quite famous amongst Australian cyclists because lots of guys used to go and stay with her. But I couldn't get in there to start with because it was already full, so I had to wait a couple weeks in the ymca. I didn't have a bike anyway, so I can't even remember what I did. But not much to start with. This is like. I think it was February, so it was just like wet and freezing cold and shitty.

You wouldn't want to be out there anyway, would you?

No, but kind of I did, but.

Very similar to Tassie, actually, isn't it?

So, yeah. Then I got into this place downstairs. I just had my own little one room and shared a bathroom and this little kitchenette thing. Yep.

So your bike, you got yourself a bike?

Yeah, got a bike from the local bike.

Can you remember what brand it was? Gitan.

No, I did ride Gitan for two years, but not. Not initially. It was an Italian bike. I don't remember the name, but it was sold by the Lotus. Again. There's a really famous bike shop in Ghent called Plume. You took it Plume, Vancouver. And it's still like now set up like it was in the 70s. And it's like kind of like a museum to cycling almost. So I got a bike from there, my first bike when I went there.

So you started training then with. What was your plan?

I didn't know at the time, but pretty much in early part of the year, there's not a. Well, not a lot of races. You can race two, three times a week in March and they're kind of classics type of races.

How do you get in there if.

You just turn up and race? Yeah, not that easy. No, I didn't realise that when I went there, but yeah, you have to. Don't have to enter a long way out and you could. I can't remember how you used to end. I used to have to buy the newspaper and they'd tell you how to.

Enter because you couldn't Just get on the Internet.

No, no, there was none of that online.

So did you find one of the three. Three best people with your letter?

I found one of the guys, yeah. At one of the races. Sir KU was at one of the races, yeah.

Just accidentally.

Yeah. Yeah. Because the Belgium national team was.

Did you have your letter with you?

Yeah, I did.

You walked up and handed it to him?

Yeah. Didn't help me, actually. He wouldn't have to do much. But one of the guys who did help me a lot was this guy, Graham's mechanic, and he used to pick me up and take me to a couple of the early races and help me get entered, which was cool. Then I got the. It was really funny in this first. In the first couple of months I was there racing, I had a couple of reasonable results. And like an Aussie racing in Belgium in March is kind of quite a bit interesting for the locals. So my local cafe, where I used to go to kind of eat and stuff, they formed a supporters club. So, you know, as a taxi driver and a butcher and a few people in this.

They're your first sponsors?

Yeah, they were my first sponsors. And essentially all it was is like being down at a local pub and they just have a whip around and get you some money.

Unreal.

And I can remember, like, I'd be in there and they'd say, how'd you go? I said, I'll punch it, both my tyres. And they just whip the hat around and get you enough money to go and buy some new tyres. That was in my first couple of three months. And I can remember, I can't remember his second name, but Patrick was the taxi driver who was in the pub all the time, and he used to pick me up and take me to races in his taxi. Awesome.

How pleased with the pub would have been when he came back and said, I won't.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. In hindsight, I. At the time, I just thought, it's pretty nice that they do that, but it's kind of not uncommon because in Belgium, lots of riders, not a lot of big sponsors for the smaller riders and they kind of used to have these supporters club and you just support your own local rider, basically.

Bit like supporting your own footy team.

Yeah, kind of like, you know, if you're supporting the Prahran, whatever, the Prahran footy club is just going down the pub and having the meat raffle. Meat raffle? Yeah. They used to whip the hat around and just.

Different sport.

Had two punches this week. The young Feeling we'll get him a new pair of tires. So yeah, supporters club. And he used to take me to races and yeah, it was interesting.

It's unbelievable. So did you get picked up After a few races.

So what I was, I raced pretty much that whole first year in Belgium. Dicking around, doing some good races, had some okay results.

What was the break from Belgium to your first team?

Yes.

When did you get on a team?

Yeah, in that first year I did that and then during. I can't remember what it was in. Might have been in the summer. The mechanic that become a friend of mine, he was also the mechanic to Alan Piper. Alan was racing. Alan's a bit older than me, but Alan was a top line pro at the time. Racing for Panasonic.

BMC's director specifically.

Yeah, he's one of the directors now. So he was. He was still racing professionally for Panasonic and he was the same mechanic he used to. Alan used to go to him and Ted, the mechanic guy said to Alan, oh this kid goes okay, reckon get him a ride somewhere. And Alan had been tied up with a French club team sort of thing. And he introduced. Well, he told the director from this French team that he should watch me in one of the races. And did you know that at the time? No, I had no idea. And I went to this race on the French border near Roubaix and I think I finished eighth or ninth or something. @ the end of the race the guy said, where's all your stuff? You're coming back to Paris with us. So I didn't bring my stuff because no one said I needed to bring my stuff. And yeah, at the end of it they drove me back into Ghent and I got picked up all my stuff and I went to Paris with them.

That was it?

Yeah, pretty much that was then. It was a. Was the Athletic Club of Boulogne Biancourt, which is a really large French club. And they were the sort of feeder team. So we raced Renault, Elf, Chitan, this is the sponsor. And it was at the time Eno Finon, those guys were racing for the pro team. So I rode in there. Sort of feeder. Yeah, the feeder team for two years, right? Yeah, for the rest of that year and then the whole of the next year.

So you lived in Paris?

Yeah, I lived in Paris and raced with them. And that was really interesting. Whilst it was an amateur team, it was like full pro. Yep, we did. So they had a in. It was the biggest club in France. So all of the regional French top riders that recruit Them, Yes. And they used to have this dormitory in Paris where everyone would just come and they had full on massage mechanics workshop was full pro. I lived there for a year and a half. It's pretty cool when you're a kid.

And they're covering all your accommodation, take.

You to races, give you your binds.

No entries? Yep.

No.

No.

Yeah, no. And I did some really cool races there. Tour of Brittany, a lot of pro am races, but the smaller ones. So I got to race sort of against the pros then.

Did you go okay in there?

Oh, I went really good in. They used to have all these point to point races and they always started in Paris and finished somewhere out in the countryside. And the first, in the first month that I raced with them they had their own club, their club sponsored race and you know you can't not win your. The team needs to win today. So like they brought all the top riders in that were on this, on the team from all over France and there was like there'd be a couple hundred people in the race but there was 25 from our club. Yeah, this is like the sponsors are here. You can't not win today, you dickheads. And we had all the best riders anyway. But I got in the break of four and there was three from our club.

Were you the best sprinter in that four?

No. So what I did and in hindsight was a best move I made. I made the race for the other guys and after that my life was easy.

Team player.

Yeah, I finished fourth out of four and probably, you know, out the hoop a bit in the finish. But we got 1, 2 and that was it kind of made my showed that I was prepared to ride for the team and kind of for me whilst it was a big race for the French guys, I didn't give a stuff really. It was just another race for me. So I didn't really mind sacrificing my chances and didn't really think about it. But afterwards the director said to me good job. He didn't kind of say nothing, just give me a thumbs up. So I thought maybe that's okay. And after that then I had a really good time there racing and I got to race the amateur version of Paris Roubaix which was exactly the same course, it's like 260ks or something. And finished podium. Never won a race.

You finished on the podium.

Not in Roubaix, no, but in a lot of these. Paris. What are they? Used to call them Paris Classics.

Yes.

Okay.

Paris Orleans, Paris Brier. There was like all of These and I finished on the podium on a number of them. And that was like the best amateur races in France. It was really hard to do. Usually from the team that I was riding with, two or three pros every year would come out of that team and they'd go straight into Finon or you know's team, which was the biggest team in France as well at the time. So pretty cool time.

Were you close with your teammates being in Australian, them being French, especially after you sacrificed yourself for them.

Did you? Bit cutthroat, was it?

Yeah, because they're all trying to race pro as well and living in a dormitory. I was one of only about 4 that was in the dormitory all the time. So the races are always on Saturday, Sunday, so on Friday all the French guys would come in. But during the week there was a Pommy guy from Manchester, a Danish guy who was junior world champion in the World Champs that I'd ridden a couple of years before. So he was an amazing rider. He went on to race pro as well. I think there was one or two French guys. There's only about four or five of us who stayed in the dormitory all the time. But on the weekend there'd be 20 people in this dormitory and mechanics and massage and people coming and going all the time. So, you know, I can't say I got really tight with them. Pommy guy was a good guy. Danish guy was a good guy. Remember the stupid stuff? The Danish guy was a really good rider. Been world champion in juniors. So we were sponsored by Renault. So he had a Renault 25 in the early 80s and the car talked to us. One of those cars that you could talk to in the 80s. So he was like kind of really right up on the top of the echelon in the team. But he was a real lad. Used to just fly back to Denmark for the weekend to get on the gas. But when he was stuck in Paris, he was a party boy. So he used to take us and the fun thing we used to do when I was living in Paris, we'd go to the Champs Elysees in his car. He was the only one who had a car. And we'd just go round around the Arc de Triompre. It was like about 12 lanes of traffic. And he'd say, let's see if I can get from the inside to the outside. It's pretty cool when I think about it at the time, just being a lad. And I used to like going with him because we'd always stop at McDonald's.

Yeah, so, yeah, it's really interesting how, Tim, did you get to function in terms of finances? So they've covered everything. Do they give you a wage?

Yeah.

What money did you have? Or you just using your savings?

No. So pretty much, if you think about. If you're dedicated to your sport, you actually kind of don't need much money when everything you need to live is paid for.

Yeah.

So in that, after that first six months in Belgium or however long I was there, the next year and a half wouldn't be getting much money. Probably something like 150, 200 bucks a week.

That's not bad.

But when you don't have to pay for anything, like, I didn't pay for anything. Petrol, food.

Would they take all the prize money for the club?

Yeah. And then divvy it up at the end of the year?

Yeah. Okay.

You just get one draw at the end of the year.

Right, okay.

But they're always stooges. Yeah. Every year. Every year I've raced, I got stooges and prize money every year. I didn't kind of care, to be quite honest. I know all the locals, they used to whinge their guts out, the French guys, but I didn't care, really. I was just like. For me, it was like living the dream.

Yeah.

What was your lifestyle like? Were you happy? I mean, were you just ruined from training.

Again?

I keep saying to you guys, I remember the dumb stuff. I can remember being in Paris and where we lived was about 15k from the shadow of Versailles. And I can remember on my days off, on Fridays before races and Monday after weekends races, I'd ride to the shadow of Versailles. I'd ride around the gardens a couple laps, I'd buy an ice cream and go to sleep in the park. You say, how was your lifestyle? I reckon that's pretty awesome when you think of it. I didn't think of it. Time I thought, shit, I've earned an ice cream. It's Monday. I've had a hard weekend racing. I'll just go and have an ice cream. Yeah. And then you think, oh, yeah. Now that I look back, because I was oblivious to where I was living, Paris, and you think, oh, yeah. Shadow of the sign. That's just some bloody good dark. It's good, nice, quiet roads. Now you look at it, you think, yeah, there's like 500 tourist coaches there daily, and people go there from all over the world just to have a look. But I was coaching, completely oblivious to the culture and everything of that. But, yeah, I was kind of Having a good time apart from your ice creams.

I mean, what was the highest point for you in that whole six?

Well, what happened next? You left that team?

Yes, I spent two years. Well, so a bit of time in Belgium and even when I was racing in France we used to go back to Belgium to do races and we used to go down to Spain to do races and stuff. I did, as I said, Tour of Brittany and some really good races there.

When did you start to get onto some of the real pro racers?

Yeah, so after that again, stupid. At the end of the second. Well, that second year I'd come back to Tassie and see mum and dad over Christmas and stuff and just do a bit of training and then go back overseas. And the second year I was back I was training in Tassie and there's a couple of Swiss pros there. I think they were in Tassie for the crisp Carnivals, the track racing. So I actually was out training with them and I took them out on a training ride and yeah, left them up the back, lost up the back of nowhere and was just, I was doing, you know, a pre season ride. No, I had all plans to go back to France again to race and they convinced me that I should go to Switzerland to race and they got me onto a team there and I can remember they said, oh yeah, we can get you 500 bucks a week if you want to come and race in Switzerland. It's a bit of a. And I thought, yeah, that is a lot more money than what I'm getting now. And so yeah, I went, went then I just rang the guy in France today, I'm not going to come back to France, see you later.

And that was okay.

Yeah, he was okay with that. And then I went and raced in Switzerland for three years and they got me onto a. I think the first year I raced for a team called Allegro there just again really small Swiss teams, guys like Steve Hodge was racing there, a couple of other Aussies and at the time they had some top line pros. There was a couple of pros in Switzerland that were racing like first three, five riders in the Tour de France France. Zimmerman Broy raced with all those guys and raced a lot of in the countries around Switzerland. So Switzerland had some good one day races that really suited me, Championship of Zurich, various sort of other what were considered Swiss classics and again I was able to podium in those races.

Yeah, that's.

And that was a good lifestyle then because I was earning good money and again, same deal. I think A couple of the years that I raced there, I got my own apartment, did my own thing, had my own car, all that. Raced a year in Geneva with Scott Sunderland as well. So Scott was racing and living there. So Scott went on race pro quite a bit as well, but just had a great time. Switzerland was more kind of like Aussie lifestyle, I reckon, than France. Really good standard of living, had a lot of fun, did some great races. That's when I raced Tour of Luxembourg. I would have raced Paris Nice when I was living in Zika. So you're really now in the pro races. Really good races. And all the Swiss races were really hard and really good and they suited me. Lots of circuit races in Switzerland which really suited my capabilities. Had some really good results there. Where else did we race? We would have raced in Spain during those three years.

Tell us about Paris Nice as a tour. I mean it's a big pre Grand Tour stage race that you would have been pinching yourself with.

Yeah, again at the time I was just kind of like, okay, no worries, let's go and do that. It's probably after it. You recall that shit? That was actually a pretty big deal at the time. Yeah, I got to the finish of it, no trouble. I was not troubling the judges terribly often.

So your role was a mystique in your team?

Yeah, I can remember. So I mentioned the guy that I raced with, the Danish guy that I raced with in Paris. He'd become pro for Renault and he raced in Paris Nice, the one that I rode. And I remember him going off the front in the tail wind with 200 kilometres to go in a stage and he won. Oh my goodness. And I thought, I've barely been able to stay at the back of the bunch of. And you've ridden off the front of the bunch in a tailwind for five hours by yourself. How is that possible? And I can remember how hard it was and how windy and shitty the weather was, but other than that I don't have. The only other thing I can remember of Paris Nice was riding the final time trial on the Coldes.

Oh, right up your alley.

You're the time trial specialist. And I can remember how miserable that was because it was pissing rain.

And it's always a climb, that one, isn't it? Yeah.

Coldes is straight out of Nice was traditionally the last stage of Parry News for years. They don't do it that much anymore. No, they don't. But I can remember doing that and I think I can remember thinking to myself, yeah, I Used to see pictures of people in magazines doing this. Now I'm doing it. That's pretty cool.

That's fantastic.

Yeah. So had three years there, which again. And I planned to go back there again after that and again I don't know what happened. But in the off season I had another deal to go back to racing in Switzerland and I really enjoyed it. Good people. Found myself somewhere really good to live. There was some other Aussies around. Michael Wilson. Yeah, he's in a Tasmanian Wilson Tassie guy. He was an amazing road rider. Michael, another one of us.

He's a very successful guy, isn't he?

Yeah. And Michael was living in Geneva at the same time, so I really loved it there. That was really cool. But yeah, in the off season, I don't know, I got some tie up with an Italian team, ended up going there to race with them the next year because again, I don't think the deal was any much better or. But it was another country, a bit of a change. Yeah. So I went and raced for Fernini in Lucca in Italy and that was really awesome as well.

What a great place to live, Luca. For those who've been to Lucca is a walled little city and got some of the best riding.

Yeah. So yeah, Ivano Fanini's had a pro cycling team there for. Still does. Again, just really small teams. All the teams I rode with weren't your really big budget pro tour teams. I think I can recall. You know, even in Italy alone there was like 30 something teams and like Fernini's team would have been amongst the bottom quartile.

Yeah, yeah.

We weren't a big budget team and. But was still really good, you know, getting to live in an Italian village and race again. I rode Torino Adriatico, rode all the major Italian races. Our team didn't get to ride the Giro that year because we just weren't even amongst the better Italian teams. But I went and raced. In the time I was in Italy a couple years, we went and raced all over Europe. I did some sort of semi classics in Belgium. We raced route to Sud, which is across the south of France, which is a really sort of big tour. Raced in Spain a lot with them. We went to America and raced. I raced U S Pro.

Was this with the Italian team?

Yeah, yeah. So rode the US Pro Championships which was a big race.

That's a big circuit.

Yeah, well, in the 80s and 90s when I was there, US pro champs was the biggest, biggest money race of the whole year.

Yeah, you've told me about these races. And, yeah, it was a money criterium style.

Yeah. So they have. They used to race in Philadelphia, US Pro Champs and ride up a thing called the Maniac Wall, and it become quite iconic. Had been going for quite 10 years. Year I rode it. Le Monde Road. Lots of really large riders. So I can remember riding up Maniac Wall, and it was like just a wall of people. Just like you're riding through people.

Yep.

And the Italian team that I rode with, we finished third, fifth, and ninth.

And that's. That's pretty phenomenal because the prize money in the US Was astronomical compared to Europe, wasn't it?

Yeah, well. And plus, they paid you after the race. Yeah, the Americans just rotated greenbacks after, and I finished ninth, and two of the other guys got in the first five. And that was the biggest payday I think I ever had on the bike. I think we all. After everyone got their share. I think we got 12,000 US each.

In the 80s.

In the 80s, yeah. Stands out a little bit because I've been pretty happy with that.

A few ice creams with that.

Yeah. So did some really cool stuff racing in Italy as well. Good times.

So the Italian team would just go to us and do three or four weeks and then come back. Yeah.

Again, it was. Pick some races at the time. It was when the Giro was on. There's no other races in Italy.

Yes. Okay.

And Americans were really keen just to get any Europeans who would come and race. So, yeah, they were. The teams that didn't get into the Giro would often go somewhere else and race. And my lot just decided to go there because I think the Americans paid them to go.

Yeah. Some of the most standout things that you can recall, and maybe even some of the things that were really hard at the time. When you were. As a pro.

Yeah, I think. I think as an athlete, what. I had my limitations. I found I worked that out. And my problem was I couldn't win the big races. I had some wins, but not big races. I'd win criteriums or I could win kind of like, I suppose not club races, because there was pros in them, but the smaller races I could do well in and I got some results in. But in the big races, I could always have good races but never get great results. And that was probably, you know, my capability, and I kind of worked that out. But, yeah, some of the things that I thought were really amazing that I were able to do that. I can remember finishing second in a really large race, and I put up an awesome ride. It was a final stage of a tour in Spain where I've gone from nowhere to second overall and second on the stage, but no one really cares about second. But for me, I thought, I don't even know I can do that. But I got no accolades for that. And I thought that was an awesome ride. And I'd ridden away for some really good bike riders, but no one else sort of thought it was that good. I can also remember again racing in Switzerland, one of the first years I was there and quite a big pro race and I'm finished in my first year racing, sort of in that level of riding and finishing with two really experienced pros and finishing third. And I can remember my boss, the bloke paying the wages, come up to me after and actually said, that was fucking terrible. Why? Why didn't you attack him and try to win? And I kind of thought, he's kind of right. But what. I was just really happy that I'd been able to keep up with these guys.

It's a different mindset. Yeah.

And he was just really angry with me, said, you know, you just should have tried to win. You didn't try to win.

Did that have an effect on you in later races?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So they're real lessons that you learn. It doesn't matter how good the guys are that you're racing with, you've still got to be thinking about how you're going to beat them. So you learn that the hard way when you think you've done a great ride. Yeah.

It's interesting, Jordan, because Tim races Masters higher level, a grade Masters riding now in local Melbourne Victoria, and we would have really good Thursday nights at Sandown. And Tim wins a lot of those races now, but some of the races you come second or third. And early on I'd say to him, oh, well done, and he'd go, no.

That'S not well done.

And I think that comes from that, maybe.

Yeah.

And you've really not been happy with yourself unless someone's better than you. You're quite happy to accept that I was done by a better guy, but normally it's. I've stuffed it somehow.

Yeah. And that certainly comes because what I did learn racing overseas is actually. Well, you see now, the podium's usually just the bloke who wins. You don't off. They don't often put second or third on the podium. And kind of. That's what sponsors think as well.

Yeah.

Kind of need winners.

Yeah. Yep.

Well, tell us, tell us a little Bit more about that side of things and what you took from that period for the rest of your life. Because it's a pretty intense period of pro racing. What's.

Yeah, I don't know. You don't, you don't think of it at the time. But even in, you know, I sell paint for a living now and it's taught me to be very resilient, very self sufficient. I can remember when I got a job after I finished cycling in my early 30s and people where I was working were complaining about, oh yeah, this office is really cold, mate. You know, I appreciate the heating doesn't work here. But the alternative, some of the stuff that I've done for a job where I've been hypothermic because the office that I was working on was getting snowed on. So I think it's sort of given me a perspective that we've got an awesome life. And also the other thing that probably did for me was build this into my psyche that if you want something done or you want someone to change something, you got to do it yourself. No one's going to do stuff for you. And that kind of. Even though you're racing in a team and you're in a sport where it's a team thing, no one comes around to your house in the morning and says, go out training, you kind of got to be motivated to do it yourself. And I've certainly found that my sport has sort of set me up in a way that I'm very motivated for the job I do now because it's kind of easy comparative to riding around in the snow.

Self reliance seems to be a standout thing. And look, I've witnessed that in the way you race now. You know, you don't wait for anybody else. And we've often talked on the bike together about do you want to be a participant in the bunch or do you want to be a playmaker? And that's one of your philosophies, isn't it?

Yeah, it's called being a racer or being a chaser. And I don't want to be a chaser, I want to be a racer if I go to races. And kind of what you guys got me back into was realising that I like that I didn't do it for, I don't know, 10 plus years there during my 30s. And when I met Gerry and Frank and started doing some riding again and they badgered me to come to some races, I thought, I don't want to race anymore, I've had enough of racing, I don't think I'd enjoy it. And then I went to a race and I realized that I kind of do enjoy that competitive stuff. And I kind of find it quite interesting now even to do some open races where you shouldn't really. Like I'm 53, I shouldn't really be able to keep up with 23 year olds, but I find that quite challenging now as well, when I go to some of those races over summer just to test myself to see if I still can. And I find it really, really hard. But it's kind of. Yeah, it's quite. You have to use all your cunning and craft to be able to even be able to finish.

Yeah.

What was one of the lessons you told me about when you first met Tim? You told me a story about how he berated you for something you did in the break. I can't remember what it was, but Tim just said, that's crap, Jared.

I can't remember that story. Sorry, George. But I was gonna say Tim's modesty was. When we very first met each other, he was state manager at Dulux, I think Frank and my brother Frank and I have a painting business, obviously that was our link. And we won an award to go to New York for the amount of paint we'd bought or something. And anyway, it was a bit dodgy, I think. But I just started talking to Tim and he's asking us a lot of questions about bike riding. And I had no idea who Tim was. And I've never forgotten this day because I was sort of saying, tell me, do you ride a bike? And he, no, I'm not a bike rider. But he knew a lot about what we were doing, as on beach road with our little Celtic kit. And he was just. He just knew a little bit too much about what was going on. I went home that night after I talked to him for about an hour and I got nothing from him. Mr. Modesty over here. And I googled him here. I found he'd raced in Europe and he'd been in three world titles. He'd actually rode three world titles for Australia, which we haven't even mentioned. And. And I rang him back and said, you prick. Anyway, that was the sort of person that I really like to surround myself with people like that who are, you know, let their actions do the. Rather than their words do the speaking for them. And so Tim, I got him to. I really had to talk him into coming back to race. He said, look, I want to start because I know I'll get Hooked on it. And I didn't realise, you know, how really much of a good rider he was. And he came on one of our Saturday rides and he was that unfit. It wasn't funny, and yet he just smashed us in the sprint. He had not lost his sprinting ability, but that was really good. Good to meet you at that time. And one of the things that we can talk about a little bit later. But what was the ending for you? When did you decide that the pro career was finished and you wanted to get back to normality?

Yeah. So I think I was 23, 24. I've been a number of years now racing in Europe and enjoying every minute of it. One of the things that was really interesting that happened during that period was the Iron Curtain come down. So East Germans, Czechs, Poles, Russians, they were never racing in pro races because they were always Olympics and amateurs, basically. And the year that I was, the first year that I was in Italy, that one of the Italian teams just sacked all their Italian riders and hired the whole Russian Olympic squad because the Iron Curtain had come down, these guys needed to ride, and these guys all then were able to go wherever they wanted to and race. And there was lots of East Germans and Czechs and Poles that had been pretty much on this communist regime where they weren't getting paid, they were just part of the state. So what that did in cycling in Italy for a couple of years there was those guys would all race really cheaply and race really hard.

Squeezed you out.

Yeah, well, yeah, kind of. So it come to a point where they said, well, hey, you know, the salary for a rider now is not what it used to be because there's all this influx of cheap labour, basically.

Very similar to what happens in the painting business, Tim.

Yeah. So the idea was, hey, you can come back and race, but you're gonna get paid less. Shit. Whilst I really enjoy what I'm doing, people think, you know, you see Robbie McEwen and these guys winning Tour de France stages and stuff, and that's the sort of guys you see on telly. You don't see the guy that's finishing 45 minutes behind in a lot of the races, carrying the raincoats and finding his way to the hotel with a pump and a spare tyre in the back pocket after a race. It's a really hard way to make a living. You know, winter's really harsh and summer's really hot. And whilst it's fun, like when someone says, you know, you can take a pay cut. No, no, no.

So it was a turning point.

Yeah. It's kind of for me. And I kind of think through what we talked about before, through diet and through sports psych and through training, I'd kind of explored what I. What I wanted to achieve was achieve my potential. And I thought that I'd done that. Probably in hindsight. I stopped being 24, was pretty young, and I don't reckon I'd reached my physical maturity. But at the time I thought, well, it was quite common for cyclists to stop in Italy, where I was racing in their early 20s, if they hadn't really made the big time, because lots of guys trying to get those spots and a lot of Italians were stopping. You know, shit, this is too hard. Going home and live with mum and eat pasta and stuff. It's a pretty good life as well. So, yeah, I decided that I actually almost stopped for a year after that. I was 24. I got a little bit disillusioned with some of the stuff that was going on and decided that, you know, how I just stopped racing. I just went back and lived in Tassie.

Yep. Okay.

When I was 24, 25, I actually spent a whole year trying to work out what I wanted to do. Did I want to keep racing, not racing. And I didn't ride my bike much for maybe a year. I was thinking about going to America because I'd enjoyed racing there and there's plenty of opportunities at the time, but I just decided to stay at home for kind of crossroads a year. Yeah. And then a good friend of mine in Tassie. It's a really interesting story. Giant bicycles. Australia had just kind of started up. This is serious. In the late 80s, early 90s, and they started importing bikes into Australia. Good friend of mine was in the bike industry and said, look, hey, we're looking for some riders, want to get a bit of a team going. And I started racing for giant bikes back in 1989, 1990.

That's gold.

And I rode then, after having sort of nine, 10 months off, started racing or training and living in Tassie, but sort of racing semi professionally around Australia. I rode like Suntour four or five times, Melbourne to Warrnambools, all of those sort of pro races, because you could kind of make good money in the back part of the year. They used to have a lot of other tours. It wasn't just a Sun Tour, so you could ride through winter and you'd race these races at the end of the sea. I made really good money riding them. You know, you win a Race here. I think I rode three or four Victorian championships, a couple of Australian road titles, four or five Sun Tours, Melbourne, Warrnambools. You make really good money just through riding them. So I did that from the time I was about 26, I think through to 30, and then I'd really had enough for cycling by the time I was 30. But again, that was a really good part of my life because what I did. I mentioned before that I probably wasn't at my physical peak when I stopped racing overseas. 24. I got really strong in my late 20s and I was a really strong plus.

You had experience.

Yeah, I was really strong in my late 20s and won some good races here, you know, won a couple of Victorian road titles, got third and Australian road titles. Yeah, I got third in Melbourne to Warrnambool, fourth in the Melbourne to Warrnambool, sixth in the Warrnambool. I had four starts for four top 10s. Did lots of racing like that where you can earn really good money again. So kind of worked a bit of part time work and did semi professional racing as well.

What was the thing that kept you going in the back of your mind? You obviously you had some sort of passion for bikes, didn't you? Was it the love of riding a bike that was keeping you, driving you on even though you'd sort of got a little bit disillusioned with Europe?

I actually just love being outside. Yeah. So outdoors and cycling gets you outdoors, but also this still probably even more so today. I actually love the. I call it good tired. It's just my way of. But I love the feeling of having worked out and feeling good tired after aching. I still do Sunday afternoons, best afternoon or best time of the whole week when I've probably ridden Saturday, Sunday, and my legs and my body's aching satisfactory night, good tired. And I really love that. And I think that's one of the things that I learned to love about riding the bike. That now actually what also keeps me riding now is I enjoy the cycling and the camaraderie of cycling as much as ever, probably more than ever. It's not about accolades at all anymore, but also. But this thing that I see a lot of friends, family who as they age don't age terribly gracefully and get out of shape. And because of that those suffer a lot of ill health. And I kind of don't want to be unhealthy, I want to be able to kind of motivates me. We've got some good buddies, guys into their 60s and like not a lot of 60 year olds are in great shape and I find that terribly inspiring because I kind of want to be, you know, I'm not that far away from it, but when I get there, I kind of want to be an active person as I age and that's kind of what motivates me now.

And for those of you don't know, Tim's part of the Giant Celtic race team which is now obviously sponsored by Giant, which is ironic from that 80s 90s team that Tim was in Tassie. But we've got a group of nine or ten very like minded people that have been selected by Giant and we've been going for almost 10 years now. And yeah, all of the group have that camaraderie, that passion, that really enjoyment to just go ride your bike as a group and get that satisfactory tiredness. And you want to surround yourself with people who are kind of motivating and we have some great bunch rides together and have a bit of fun and take the piss out of each other, which is part of it. And it's a great little group that we have. And sure we go to races to try and be semi serious and we try our best when we've got a number on, but that's kind of one of the things that I was so pleased when you joined our team midway through. And we've got other similar riders now. We've interviewed Julian Painter and Darren Young's and other pro rider that's in our team who rode in Belgium for six or seven years as a track rider and has won two Australs. And so we've got a really good group of people and I think for those listening, that's kind of what you need if you want to keep yourself just what Tim was saying, fit and healthy and age gracefully. It's really important that you surround yourself with people who are like minded and not going to drag you down and motivate you.

Motivate you.

Yeah. So just at the end of your career, I suppose, you know, we have sort of done a few good things and one of the things that we decided to do was go to Perth when the UCI decided to have the world titles in Australia and you said, oh yeah, I might have a crack at that. And I've got to say, witnessing your training regime, it was like you'd gone back 30 years because you put your head down and you knew exactly how to go about getting yourself ready for that race. And witnessing you win that race was, I tell you what, it was one of the more Exciting things. I was there that day in my own race, and I got to see you win the sprint finish. I haven't seen too many sprint finishes being won by two or three seconds, which is unusual. So you actually flogged them in the finish, which. Yeah. Was that something. That was good fun and a good experience for you?

Really glad that I did it. I don't. Look, I wouldn't have done it without yourself and Frank kicking me in the butt to say, you should give it a go, because I hadn't considered it at all, but kind of, once I commit to something like that, once I've made a commitment in my own mind, I know exactly what I need to do because I wouldn't bother going. I wouldn't turn up unless I was going to have a serious crack. And I needed. I know. I can remember thinking to myself, okay, I've committed to this. Now what do you need to do? And I knew that for me that means three months worth of just training properly. As I said, I ride now. I don't train. I just go for a ride. And I'll ride hard if I feel good and I won't ride hard if I don't. But I train properly for three months. And I suppose having ridden a bike now pretty much for 40 years, I know what I need to do, my body. I don't need anyone to tell me. I know when I'm being lazy and I know when I need to back off. And yeah, I train really hard for three months, I reckon. And look, simply for me, that is actually getting off Beach Road to train properly here in Melbourne, to get proper training. What I would consider just right up in the Dandenongs where you live. It's like, I hear you say it all the time, but you always have to be on the pedals. Going downhill is not even easy up there because the roads are rubbish. So, yeah, I just rode up there every Saturday for three months. And again, instead of just riding two days a week during the week, I rode three days a week.

You used all that experience, didn't you, that you gained?

So I just knew how to prepare for it. And I think I just found myself in reasonable shape. Probably the best shape I've been in for a long time.

Yeah.

Bit of a broad question, but what do you think it takes to be a good writer? What do you think?

Someone that's not so good, I think it's really easy. You just gotta love writing. I don't think you can make yourself a good writer. Well, you can improve what you've got.

You'Ve got to be passionate, but you.

Just got to like riding, I don't think. You know, I see a lot of guys over the last, you know, 10, 15 years, cycling's become a little bit trendy, I suppose. So you see a lot of guys pick up a bike, go and buy an expensive bike and ride it for two years, and they kind of do it because it's popular, but they don't really love riding. It's a chore for them to get on their bike. Every time I think it's a chore, I just won't ride. I don't feel like riding it. I just won't ride. Every time I ride now, it's because I want to ride and I enjoy riding. And I've kind of always been like that, I reckon. And maybe if I thought really hard about why at different periods I haven't ridden, it's because I haven't been enjoying it. So I think it's the same in what I do for work. If you don't enjoy coming to work and selling paint, which is what I do for a job, you can't actually be really good at it. So that's kind of a bit of a philosophy in all things for me, whether that's work or sport or whatever it is you choose to do. Unless you enjoy what you're doing, you won't have that much fun at it and you won't be ever really, really good. That's pretty simple answer to a broad question.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. One last point I wanted to touch on, which I've found between you two is I know you have differences in your approach to training because you know that dad really likes data and really likes power and FTP and training to numbers as well as just writing. And I know that you take the piss out of power numbers and really couldn't care less. So explain your thoughts on that and why you don't.

I'm at a stage in my career where I do really just do it first. Health, fitness and enjoyment. And I couldn't think of anything worse. So I don't train now. So for me, having to think about data and numbers and stuff means training doesn't mean I've not trained that way. Yeah, but I have trained that way in the past. Don't worry. When I was in my 20s, I never left a stone unturned. And I used to. I was doing training programs and efforts.

And Tim, would you intervals if you had the information available to you. Now, if you had that back in the 80s, you would have. You would have been all over.

Yeah, So I used to have a heart rate monitor in the 80s. It was kind of like a thing about as big as this microphone.

And look, that's one of the things I love, I love talking to Tim about, because I know he takes a piss out of our, you know, our power meter, and he's riding 14 watts today and dial it up to 18 watts, and it's hilarious. But I know deep down that had he had that information back in the 80s, he would have been all over.

It, would have explored it. Absolutely. Because if there's anything that you can do to give yourself an advantage or make sure, again, all anyone can do is extract their potential. So if that's something that helps you extract your potential, well, why wouldn't you want to explore it? But for me now I've passed the stage of actually really being that concerned about it. I just want to ride and be outside and. And have commitments to meet friends and ride my bike and have a laugh. So it's all too complicated for me now to actually at a stage in my career where it doesn't really matter to me, I'm not looking to improve my. Whatever those things are that you're trying to improve.

Jim's got a power meter on his bike and he's actually no idea what his watts are, which is brilliant, I reckon.

So I. I just figure now if the guy in front of me is going too fast, I'll slow down. I don't need to hurt myself that much to throw up to stay on his wheel anymore.

Mind you, that doesn't happen in Faji.

No. But, yeah, I don't know, it just doesn't appeal to me at all now in what I want to get out of cycling now, which is be fit and healthy, have some fun and be outside. So riding on. The other thing that I really despise around cycling now is riding in your garage. For me, that defeats the purpose of riding a bike. And yeah, I appreciate from a fitness point of view, it might be a part of your program that helps you get fitter, but I'd rather drink a cup of coffee and sit at the kitchen bench than sit in the garage and riding a zwift or whatever it is you do. Not at all interested.

And we like that side of it because we've spoken about on other podcasts, the mix of using power, but then when you're on the road, you using common sense and learning how to ride your bike. Yeah, ride your bike properly.

So I've got this other view that, you know, you can have all the power known to man, and I've heard you guys talk about it before, but if you don't use it at the right time, what's the good of it? So you might be able to. Through training and riding the right regime, you might be able to improve your power by 10, 15%, but that doesn't help you at all if you actually put that additional power down at the wrong time in a race. Probably helps you quite good in a time trial when you measure an effort.

Yeah, definitely.

But in actually a road race, which is kind of what I like and what I enjoy, I can beat guys who got 25% more power than me because they use it at the wrong time.

Yeah.

And why is that? Just timing.

It's a bit of experience knowing when to put it. Put the. Put the power down. If you put the power down at the wrong time, going downhill into a headwind, it's just kind of pretty dumb. Whereas, yeah, if you want to put that extra power down 150 meters out when you found yourself in a good position at the finish, that might be a great idea.

So you win a world title.

Yeah, kind of.

That's good.

Is there any more questions you wanted to ask?

No, I think. I think pretty much really enjoyed listening to Tim's stories, and I know we've talked a lot over the years. There's a lot of things that he's told me on the side that probably. Probably best not mentioned on some really funny stuff that's happened. But it's really good to have Tim explain how a guy can have a pro career yet not be a Robbie McEwen. And there are plenty of guys who have gone to Europe and. And for one reason or another, real potential writers in Australia who just haven't actually got the breaks that other riders have had or opportunities haven't been there. We joked about having a letter, but, you know, had he not run into that person, you know, at some stage, his career might have been completely different, you know, so it's been really good for, hopefully for our listeners to. To understand that, you know, things just always don't have to be handed to you on a plate. You actually have to work for things and create your own opportunities. And I think that's a really good example of what Tim shown. He's had a good crack at, you know, six or seven years, has been a pro, rode some great races, had some really good results, had some great experiences, and probably you would not Regret anything.

Not one bit.

And, you know, obviously, you would love to have been a more substantial pro rider on the podium, but that's just the way it is.

And I think, again, if I could, the thing that I think is all you can do is get out your potential.

Yeah.

And I kind of did that. Yeah. So I'm so content. I don't have any. I wish I could have won this or wish I could. I don't have any of that at all.

Yeah. That's fantastic.

It comes from. I don't know, it's just your. Your own makeup isn't. I can remember thinking, listening to old guys when I was a young guy saying, I wish I had her, and I don't ever want to wish I had anything. I want to do. And you want to explore everything you can to do the stuff that makes you happy.

Yeah. And the experiences you had, you'll remember for the rest of your life. And it's been such a journey for you as a young kid, really, just taking on the world sort of thing. It's.

It's pretty. It kind of shapes you as a person. It becomes the person you are.

Yeah.

Because of those experiences.

Yeah. Certainly you're a very good people person now with the job you're in now. Australian manager at Dulux, and you're very successful at that. Sal and paint. Because you're passionate about it and it comes through. You love what you're doing, whether you're on the bike or at work. And, yeah, it's a really good example for people to understand that you actually won't succeed that well in life or in anything recreational unless you really love what you're doing, because if it becomes a chore, you might as well stop doing it.

That's perfect. A bit of a long one today, but dad asked me a couple of times over, doing some of the podcasts, what's the length we want to go to? And I just say there's no time limit if it's interesting. And I was really excited to have you on, Tim, because I knew the stories you tell would be interesting, and they were. And there's absolute gold in this. And the stories Dad's told me over the years of. Just some of the stuff that you mentioned today is just absolutely awesome to hear. So I think we'll definitely have you on again, maybe with Dasha, because you two together, just like a house on fire. It'll be very funny. But, yeah. Thank you very much for coming on. It was really, really good interview.

Thanks, Tim.

No trouble at all guys and we'll.

See you guys in the next episode. Thank you very much for listening. As always, leave any feedback on the anchor app or feel free to ask any questions that you want us to cover in terms of topics. Or you can recommend some people to interview and definitely let Tim know if you enjoyed this interview. Thank you very much. We'll see you in the next episode.