7 Underrated Triathlon Training Habits (And 7 Overrated)

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jarred Donnelly. There are many different ways to train, and while most athletes should be doing generally similar things, there are many training habits that could be seriously helping improve your performance or be a total waste of time. So today we're going through seven underrated and seven overrated training habits. As always, this podcast is brought to you by our proud sponsors, Giant Bikes, for all your bike training and racing needs. Ride life. Ride Giant Dad. Welcome back to another episode. First off, what are you grateful for?

For those who've been following our podcast, I mentioned last week that we're going to have a house full of people with your older brother and his family coming down to stay from Queensland and some really great friends coming over from America and your other brother and his new son coming over as well. So we've had pretty much the house full the whole week. Every bedroom's full, every spare mattress is being used, and it's, it's chaos in the house. There's just something happening. Somebody's doing something, someone's going somewhere. And, you know, it's like an episode of getting totally organized. So just to go for a walk, it takes, it takes 15 minutes for everybody to get ready to go for the activity that's going to happen.

The boots on the kids and the beanies and the kids.

That's right. And getting the pushes out and where we're going to go and then going to the park. And so it's, it's just fun. It's just hilarious. Just know half of the activity is getting ready for the activity. And it kind of made me think about training, you know, getting ready for your sessions. You spend so much time getting ready for the act. And then when, when we get to the park, you know, kids are crying and they want to go home. So you've done all this preparation work and for the big event and. But yeah, it's. I'm just grateful for, for being at a routine sometimes. It's great because we spend a lot of time in our year doing similar things and we like organized days. We like to be in a routine and look, sometimes it's great to just to be out of that for a short period of time and enjoy it and embrace it. And I'm grateful for that opportunity. It's been fun.

I think that's a big thing for you to say specifically because you specifically like being in routine and like being in quite a disciplined structure. And so for you to be grateful to be out of it, I think is quite a. Quite a powerful one to choose.

Absolutely. I, you couldn't have hit it on the head. I'm. I, you know, in the past I would be getting frustrated about what's happening around me and I can't do the things that are priority to me. But I think I have the wrong priority. I, you know, you need to be having periods where it's okay to be. You know, it's like doing a free training ride. It's okay to have a period where it's unstructured for a minute or two and have some fun. It's not saying that what I'm doing is not fun. It's great fun what I'm doing with my work and looking after athletes. But, you know, you've got to enjoy good periods in your life and this is one of those really good periods in life. And don't worry about. It's like if something comes up and you can't train properly, don't worry. You don't get all worried about missing one session out of 450 sessions you've done. You know, it's great to be able to enjoy some relaxing time as well. It's important for good mental health. And you come back to your work station, you know, fresh, your mind's not cluttered and you're ready to get into it. I'm really grateful for that.

Yeah. No, that's awesome. My gratitude this week is a funny one. My gratitude. I'm grateful for gratitude. I was listening to a podcast this week and the host was talking about the power of gratitude and was telling quite a powerful story about how gratitude had helped their life and where they'd come from. Some through some pretty tough and challenging things. And it was them being able to focus on what they had around them that really got them through some of those hard times which the story was quite emotional, to be honest. And I think for it reminded me that for us it's kind of a weird thing to commit to on a triathlon podcast to do a gratitude segment at the start of every main episode. It really doesn't. Doesn't quite make sense or match up, but the reason we do it is that we're really passionate about the athlete experience and the athlete journey and mental health in the sport of triathlon, cycling, running and the journey as well. And we do see a Lot of athletes so suffering negatively for various reasons because life's stressful, or on this journey, it can be stressful if things aren't going your way. And so we found it to be a really positive and powerful thing to keep doing. And so we really committed to it on the podcast. Even though it's quite out there, and listening to this podcast, it really forced me to remember to look for things more frequently. But also I realized that doing the gratitude on this podcast every week was me looking for things to be grateful for all the time. And I do find myself going, oh, what am I going to say on the podcast this week? You know, what am I going to. What's my gratitude going to be this week? And that's actually. Even though it's happening kind of unconsciously, it's actually a really powerful thing because I keep pointing out things in my life that I'm grateful for. And so, yeah, the host got quite emotional talking about that experience. But it was really nice to hear from another podcast perspective. And it was a big reminder for myself of why it's a really good thing to do. And I hope the audience gets that as well.

That's a great one, Jord. I think it's also really good to have perspective when you think the examples you were giving when things don't go your way, and to have to try and find something good about what's happening in your life. You only have to look at some of the really bad things that are happening around the world to make you realize how grateful you should be. Because, face it, we're in a pretty privileged position where we live, the opportunities we have. And I think it's perspective that we're trying to get into people's lives about. Even though you think things aren't going well, get some perspective about what could really be an example of how things aren't going well. And it's also good to experience that. You know, even though I don't think it's going well in terms of the rest of the world, I actually going, okay. And being grateful for that is a timely reminder. I think that it helps you. I'm sure it helps you and everybody else around, you know, that you're thinking like that. And I'm like, I've got no evidence about that, but that's how I feel.

We do get a lot of comments about it, which is really nice. We don't do it for the comments back. We do it because we believe it's the right thing. We know based on our athlete experience, it is the right thing. And yeah, I just wanted to mention that and it was a really good reminder. So, moving on to the. Before we get to the main topic actually of the episode, some incredible news from our perspective. Liege, Bastantly Age was raced over the weekend and it was a great result for our Aussie, Grace Brown. Liege is one of the cycling monuments, meaning it's one of the biggest races on the Cat Classics calendar out of all the Springlet classics. That happens kind of two races a week. And Grace Brown has come second two times previously, once in 2020 and again in 2022. And after keeping. After being in the breakaway with some of the most elite riders in the. In the bunch at the moment. And she hit a roundabout with seven k's to go and, and got locked up and skidded and almost came off in the roundabout and managed to almost bunny hop out and stay upright. She had to chase back onto the group with six and a half K to go, which, which she did. And then she executed almost a perfect sprint and it was, it was pretty good to watch.

Well, I watched knowing the result, I watched the finish and after seeing what she'd gone through to get to that finishing point with the bunch to sprint, I still, with 100 meters to go, thought that I had the result. I had the result wrong because I just thought, how's she going to win from that position? And it was unbelievable to just get over Longo Borghini, who's an unbelievably good sprinter right at the end. And you could see the joy that it gave Grace after knocking on the door so many times. And yeah, it was really fantastic to see someone actually. And I think we talked about it on the case study the other day. Persistence is a really great attribute to have and if you keep putting yourself in the right position, eventually things will turn your way. And couldn't have been a better result for her after having two second places is really. Yeah, so close, but you're not quite there. But to actually get over the line is a really great result for her and well done.

It reminds me of just another unwritten rule, and that is keep fighting to the line. And I think we found some footage of the races from 2020 and 2022. And in both instances when she came second in 2020, she was, she was 10 seconds off Marianne Vos, who won. And there's a great image of the final sprint. You can see the last kilometer, basically, and she's 10 seconds behind. She's not going to make that gap up Marian Vos is going to cross the line first. And she, Grace Brand still has her head down, pedaling as hard as she can right to the line just in case something happens. You know, she didn't give up with 500 to go. She can give up with 300 to go. She raced all the way to the line and didn't get there, obviously, but I was really impressed looking at that. And then same thing in the 2022 edition. There was, I think Voss was won that one as well. And she was ahead of the bunch. And Grace Brown won the bunch sprint. So once again, even though she was racing to second, she raced her heart out and got that second place. I think when that's your mentality all the time and you do that when your time comes like it did on the weekend. And as you said in that bunch sprint, Borghini had two or three bike lengths on her and with 100 meters to go, it didn't look like she was going to get over the top. But there was no way she was giving up because we know that's the type of rider she is and she wins. It's a great example of that unwritten rule of racing to the line.

Great summary. I couldn't put it any better. And you know, if you can have that attribute in your, in your toolkit and you only get that by continuing to practice that in, in every experience you have, whether it's a race or whether it's training that you're continually pushing, that mentality that you have of, you know, get the most out of yourself for every experience you're having.

And of course, if you know us, you know that the next thing coming after we talk about an unwritten rule, is our unwritten rule here on the podcast. If you love these episodes and if you get something out of it, if you find them valuable, the best thing you can do for us is share the podcast. So share it to a friend of yours, share it to someone in the sport, triathlon, cycling, running, someone who could use some coaching tips. Or even better, share it on your social media, take a screenshot of it, take a photo of it, click the share button on the podcast and copy the link and share it to your social media. That's the best way you can help us help more people. So moving on to the last topic we're going to keep mentioning, the athletics world in the build to the Paris Olympics this year and what we're seeing because it's really exciting. And just over the weekend, Diamond League was back and a couple of things really Stood out which is exciting for us, but good off. Sagai, the 5000 meter world record holder at the moment ran the third fastest 1500 meter of all time. We've spoken on the podcast about Faith Kipiego and how she is just worlds ahead of the rest of the field at the moment. She's running low 350s. Continuously run the world record 349 last year when the rest of the field is running high 350s. Some, some athletes are 355 but you watch these Diamond League races and she is the rest of your aiming on screen and this is the world's best athletes, you know, and they're not even on screen but to see it's a guy run the third fastest time in 350.3. She almost broke 350 which was insane. That keep yeah going to do it last year was bloody exciting and she's actually going to go for the 10k world record in a few months. But to see this match up shaping up for the Olympics is going to be awesome. But on that note, two more Aussie girls run under four minutes in the same race. And so the Aussie girls are actually the non, only non African country representatives in the race that broke, that broke four minutes. But that gives us, dad, five girls who are now under four minutes with the Olympic qualifier in the 1500 meters. That's pretty exciting because only three can go to the Olympics. We haven't had that deeper talent in a long time. To see kind of how well their training is going and to see where they're all coming from. Different training groups, different methods. Sarah billings, specifically around 359, she's had an injury plagued few years. She just came straight from a three week altitude training camp straight to this race. Um, I think the Diamond League race was in China. I may have had that wrong. Um, but to do. It's a pretty interesting training program too. She, she hasn't run close to four minutes in years clearly. PB and to do that three week altitude camp, altitude training camp and then go straight into a race, uh, it's a pretty cool training thing to see and, and run that sub four.

Yeah. And I think one of the things that we kind of overlook is that once someone sets a standard, it's what everybody's striving for and that lifts the standard of everybody else. And to see, you know, the women 1500 come from, you know, regularly running 355 to four minutes over the years and all of a sudden someone runs 349 and everybody almost gets a whack in the back of the head going, oh, this is the new standard and I have to lift my game. And straight away you've got the guy, you know, responding to that and running a 350 straight away. And then you've got, as you just mentioned, you know, two Aussie girls and that makes five who can now run into four minutes. And you know, if everybody was still running around 358, 359, you know, 401, 402 is still okay. Where it's not anymore, you know, you need to be doing something better. And whether it's an altitude camp or whether you're focusing on your nutrition or your sleep or some aspect of your training, you have to find a way to be more competitive. And when people start legally being better athletes, then it's really going to lift the standard, whether it's a male or female event. It's just a natural progression. It's one. You know, we talk about Inger Britzen the whole time and you know, people now, Josh Kerr can actually match him and beat him. And you know, there's examples of this happening everywhere and it's just great for, for athletics and for sport in general to see, to see people just, just doing things. And that's probably what the topic's a little bit about today, is concentrating on the things that are, that are more relevant than, than irrelevant to get you to where you want to be on your.

I think it's. Yeah, the way you summarize that is exactly kind of the reason I wanted to bring this up. It's because we have so much limits on ourselves and our ability and we see it in the Trivella group a lot when suddenly one rider does a time trial and rides 45.5Ks an hour and everyone else in the group goes, whoa, they used to be with us and now they can ride that fast. Well, I know I can keep up with them. And so suddenly our whole group lifts. And we've seen that over the years where the average of our top 10 time trials has gone from 42Ks now to 43 to 44 to 45. And it is that belief of the group and it's a really good thing. But at the same time you think, okay, well if I just believe that sooner, maybe I would have got there sooner. So you don't want any kind of limiting self beliefs on yourself to stop you from thinking you can improve or get better.

Yeah. Limiting self belief things. It's always intrigued me. And everybody's experienced It. I'm including myself in this and I'm including you. And sometimes you need to hear from someone else that, you know, you have more potential. You have. Your ceiling is still not being reached. And we talk about that a lot. And I think that if you start to sometimes, you know, not just believe it, but actually act like it and train like it and think like it and then execute like it, then all of a sudden you gain confidence from every single time you do a training session or a race that far out. And I've got so many examples. I can, I can mention Beth and she won't mind every time we talk about her race plan. I would look at her race plan and say, beth, you're under selling yourself in the run. You can run better than that. And she'll say, do you think I can? And I say, I wouldn't tell you you can if you. If I didn't think it was possible. And, you know, we agree on a new race strategy with her race pace for her run and she can't wait to ring to say, far out, I did it. And, you know, had she gone into that race with the same belief that, no, this is my pace, that I'm capable of doing, and for someone outside to say, no, no, you're better than that. And that was a limiter to her. And that's happened so many races. We've had the same laugh conversation about this is what you're capable of. And she's thinking, oh, no, I don't think I can, I don't think I can. But yeah, you set the standard yourself in your own mind, but that's also preventing you from improving. If you're. We're not saying to come up with some strategy that's unachievable, it's out of your range. That's not what we're saying. You know, as we always talk about ability and ambition, getting those things confused, this is actually things that you are capable of doing and the more times you do that, the more confident you become as an athlete.

Spot on. So look, yeah, we're a little bit biased with just that the race over the weekend with we're focusing on the Aussie girls. But I think when we watch the build to Paris and we look at all the sports, triathlon, the marathon runners and the way that social media is now, we really get to gain a good insight into what athletes are doing. We're going to keep kind of looking at the training stuff that athletes are doing and the races that they're doing and they're building their preparation and take as many learners as we can. So we're really excited for that whole process to keep unfolding. So let's get into the topic. Five underrated and five over or sorry, seven underrated and seven overrated training habits that you may or may not be doing. And the first caveat to this is that if you think a training habit contributes to your performance, that sometimes can be enough. But at the same time you don't want any unnecessary superstitions to limit you. So if you, I think, you know, if you put your shoes on a certain way or like Rafael Nadal, you don't touch the white lines and that helps you get into a mindset of performing better, then so be it. But at the same time, if you're doing something that's, you know, and if you don't do it, you believe it's going to give you poor performance even though it has no relevance. And that's probably not a great thing to, to have as part of your training routine or habits. So we're here to tell you what we know works or doesn't work and then you can do with that information with, you know, with what you will. And I guess one little example on that is that for us, we, there's little evidence to suggest that, you know, doing a recovery spin at eighty or a hundred watts is any more beneficial than just completely resting. But we find those sessions super valuable for many other reasons. So many other mental and physical reasons that we will continue to do them in our training. And that's an example of where it's not hurting you and it's not a superstition, but we find them valuable for other reasons. So even though the evidence suggests otherwise, we'll continue to do them and program them with athletes. So anything to add there, dad, before we get into the topic?

No, I think you've covered it. I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Awesome. So, first one, this is underrated.

Just before you go, I did want to mention the London Marathon women's race. Oh yes, the fastest time ever by a woman in a non mixed race. Which means basically it was a women's only race. So it was the world record marathon time in a women's only race. And it was a fantastic Finish. They had five runners all coming to the line within the last 2K. And, and I've never seen such a battle at the end of a marathon. It was like the end of a 5K or an 800. It was incredible. And in the end there was Quite a gap between all five of them. There was 20, 30, 40 meters between the whole lot of them and they ran a 216 to win the race, which was incredible running by all the girls in the race.

Technically all five broke the, the world, the world record there. So. And the categories are the official world record actually only counts if it's a woman's only race and not a mixed race because the pacing by the men can impact the result so much so that the unofficial world record is 211. So that can kind of show the difference from, from a pacing perspective. But I can't imagine anything worse than having to do a sprint finish at the end of a marathon. You know, sprint finishing at the end of a 5k or a 10k or is, is hard enough for a half marathon. But imagine a marathon like that. No wonder the gaps are so big because the legs would just be absolutely on their limit.

And also, you know, it's almost related to the topic, you know, the mindset of I'm, I'm going to give everything. And I'm sure all five girls have the same mindset. But, but you know, at the end of that it is who wants it more, who is mentally tougher. And you're not going to tell me after they've run, you know, literally 42 kilometers that there's a difference in ability at the finish there. It's all to all to do with who wants it more. And you know, if your fatigue levels are higher than four of the other girls and you still want it more, I'm not saying that you can win that race, but you know, there could be reasons why you can't actually run any harder, even though mentally you're ready for it. So I'm not saying that's not possible, but it is something that, you know, it's, you always see someone who will win that finish, you know, no matter what, they don't lose. They've got that mental approach that no matter how gone I am in terms of fatigue, I will still manage to get the result I want. And that happens a lot. Even though fatigue should say that they can't do it.

Yeah, it's, that's a Pandora's box of a conversation because you do actually see at the top level, often athletes do genuinely push to their body's limits because we've seen sprint finishes where an athlete will just collapse at 70, 70 meters to go because their legs just won't go. They're trying to push their legs faster and their legs just stop. Their body has Been screaming at them. No. For so long that their body just does. Just stop. But it is as an athlete. Oh, gosh. I've had too many times where you think you're on your limit and you think you're pushing as hard as you can and then you finish the race and an hour later you kind of go, oh, was I a bit soft there? You know, did I just drop back 1 or 2%? Not an ask question to ask yourself. Okay, moving, moving into the main topic. So first, underrated training habit that we want to talk about is using competition in your training program. So can you talk me through why this is so underrated and so powerful?

Yeah. If we are in this sport, whether it's marathon cycling, triathlon, and our goal is to improve, this is one of the key aspects of our training that will help us be a better competitor. And what more avenue that you should take is to actually do competitive races. So not just racing, but, you know, we have our main. A race is always the thing that we're, that we're striving to. We work towards that. But along that journey, if we can throw in as many competitive situations and whether it's just with a, a group, a training group occasionally, or a competitive fun run or a criterium or an individual time trial or a mini triathlon, anything that's going to get us into the mindset of race mode with someone else to push us rather than just us training by ourselves is going to be an unbelievably good experience to have for when you come to your A race.

Yeah, it's, it's. Seriously. Covid was such a blessing for us when we started doing our Zwift race series over winter, which we've continued every year since COVID because we just realized how valuable those sessions were. And you, you just can't, you just can't possibly push yourself as hard as you can in a race. And it's so funny how it happens, but as soon as you're in a race environment, you just push yourself so much harder. And that's why we've continued the Zwift series. That's why we encourage people to go do a park run at 5k rather than a 5k time trial. That's why we encourage cyclists and triathletes to go do some criterion racing. I think about one of our local crits here. And it's an hour circuit and it's 15 laps and there's a big hill at the back of one of the laps, and every lap you're pushing 550 watts for a minute and then every time there's attack, you're pushing somewhere between 550 and 1,000. And if you're trying to get the breakaway, there's times when I am so far on my limit that I think to myself, if I was in a training session right now, I would have given up 10 seconds ago. But you are just fighting to stay on the wheel and pushing as hard as you can, trying to hold that. And there's just no way I'm getting that intensity from a training session. So racing all the time, not a good thing. But we have just found that including more racing and competitive environments to get more out of your body more frequently is just such an advantage.

There's so many things that it really helps you with. I mean, sometimes it's a battle to train with intensity and you have to be really motivated, self motivated and really on your game. But if you put yourself into a race, you don't have to worry about that self motivation because we have this competitiveness in us. And I would argue to the cows come home that everybody has some component of competitiveness in their, their makeup. And some people have it at a hundred level and some people have it one or two and everybody has it somewhere in between. And I know that you are very competitive. I am super competitive. I would want to win marbles competition if there was a competition. And so I know that it's going to push me more than if I'm being by myself. And so that's what we're trying to do here. On the days where we want to have intensity, that's, you know, that's unpredictable, that's through the roof. These are the days to do it. It's harder to do that by yourself. We can, we can use ways like Fartle where it's, when you come to a hill, you run harder using the terrain, etc as a, as our competition. Here's a tough hill, let's run harder. But if there's someone beside you who's now 2 meters ahead of you, the competitiveness in you will, you know, if you're allowed to do that on that training session, you know, that's what you want to do. You want to actually match anybody who's around you. And I think, I think as a, as a training component, it's, it's almost one of the most valuable sessions you can do.

And yeah, totally underrated. And look, it can be, it could be any race, it could be a triathlon race. And you say this all the Time. You know, we talk a lot about race ready sessions, but you just say stuff the race ready session. Just go to a race and get the intensity from that. So with a triathlon sense, it's not always that doable, but using more competition, completely underrated. Next one watts per kilo. Overrated or underrated?

It's important, isn't it, to understand what our watts per kilo is. But people are so focused on it that it becomes the wrong focus. Let's do the things that are gonna give that are gonna, that are going to give us the best watts per kilo that we can possibly achieve. Let's focus on those things and then the watts per kilo will follow. Watts per kilo are important, but it's overrated. In a conversation and you've been in a coffee shop, what's your best FTP? Well, what does it matter? Because it's not relevant to anybody else. We've had so many examples of really fit, unbelievably good female athletes whose FTP is 150 watts and some big strong guy is 300. Does that mean that that guy is better than the 150 watt female athlete? If they rode side by side, probably the female athlete's going to beat that athlete. So the FTP itself or the watts per kilo aren't that important. It's actually what you're doing to improve that number. So that's the point we're trying to get across here is work hard to improve your threshold, your FTP, work hard to improve your watts per kilo. But it's not the thing we should be focusing on. And we've got examples of people who've told me I want to get 4 watts per kilo. That's my goal. Well a, your weight may change, you might change power meters and your power numbers drop or they go up because the power meter reads differently. There's all these things that will, you know, if that's what you're defining your whole improvement by, then you're thinking about the wrong way.

What's per kilo is quite important in a professional setting because you're trying to match what the other people around you are doing and you do need to match that. But triathlon is such an individualized sport, you just need to focus on yourself. So the only number that's important is your own. So yeah, improving your own number is important, but comparing your what's per kilo to other people, not very important. All right, next one that is just, I won't even ask you it's just so clearly underrated is analyzing training data. So for us, this is looking at your numbers and your own data before and after sessions and being informed, I think, is the way to describe this. So why is this so underrated? It seems obvious, but we know that people don't do it enough. So why is this still so underrated?

Yeah, we always talk about being well prepared and well planned so you can actually perform properly. So being informed about where you currently are in terms of your swim speed, your running pace or your bike power will give you so much more information about how to perform in any given situation that you find yourself in. So if you don't know any of that information, you're going to have less idea about how to react in any circumstance that you find yourself in. So we're really encouraging everybody to take ownership of their own data and then you can make really good decisions about what you're doing in a training session when you're on your own, or when you're in a group ride or when you're in a race scenario. You can look down at your watch if you're running, or on your bike at your power, and get information back that's going to help you make a decision about what you should do next. And if you don't have that information, you're not across it, you haven't bothered, then you're going to basically be guessing about what to do next. And some people are really good at reacting without having any information. We're not talking about that type of athlete. We're talking about decisions based around time trialing, I suppose, where doing it this power at this particular point is detrimental to the overall outcome of the event. So knowing and analyzing your data gives you a whole lot of feedback about what you can do in certain scenarios and certain situations. And we're the first to say if you're in a. If you're a road race on a bike and the front pack of the road race starts to accelerate and you just glance down to see what your power number Is and it's 20% higher than you've ever done for a minute. Should you sit back down and let them go? No, you should race the race and not worry about what the data tells you. And that way give yourself a chance to be a part of the outcome of the race. And if you know after five minutes you're riding way above your level and you're going to blow up, then that's a different scenario. But if it's only a one minute or two Minute effort. You should be not worrying about the data. They're different things that we're talking about here. We're more talking about being informed about what's going to be the best benefit or outcome for the particular situation you're in. And if you don't know that information, you, you're going to make poorer decisions and that's going to in the end not allow you to progress as an athlete.

Yeah, it's from a training habit perspective. It's getting in the habit of looking at what the numbers you need to hit are before each session and then after the session looking at the data and did you actually hit them? And when you do that frequently enough, really well informed athletes could tell you if you give them a certain session they can say, oh, I did this last year and I know it was around this range. Or you know, when you, when you train long enough, you really can start to say, you know, when I was really informed I was hitting these numbers on my threshold efforts or I was hitting these numbers on my, on my 1k intervals or, or my heel repeats. You might do the same hill repeats over a span of eight years and you'll know these are the types of pace or time I can hit on these hills. And, and that's been super informed and that makes you such a more effective trainer. But it's not just intervals and sessions. It's also, I think underrated is looking at your data after an endurance ride, for example, or a bunch ride or an endurance run and going okay, what pace was that potentially? What normalized pace or power was that? What all my peak power efforts, you know, and actually analyzing the data and going, well, what was my peak 5 minute for that ride? What was my peak 10 out 10 minute. And that really gives you a good indication as to how hard the ride was. So you know, we have some athletes who, who finish a bunch ride and just go, I was exhausted from that potential zone two bunch ride. And then you look at their peak power and they've spent insane amount of time at really high power numbers relative to their FTP. And so suddenly you go, well, I don't know if you realize, but you spent 12 minutes quite close to your FTP or you spent 35 minutes on a climb quite close to your FTP. And if you actually look at that data and you get in the habit of looking at that data, you can be really well informed about what's happening in your actual training sessions.

Yeah, you've covered so many good topics there. And the example would be that hill. Hill repeat. If you've asked to be running 2 minute hill repeats and you start and finish at the same spot every time for the last eight years on the same hill or in the last two months, you know that last time you were struggling to get to that same finishing point. And that's what we do. We start at the same point and finish at the same point. If you get there in 1:58, you've got instant perspective, regardless of the pace, you know that you got there ahead of time. Or if you get there in 2 minutes and 5 seconds and you are really trying, you're trying to run two minutes, then you've got perspective of where you're at on that given day. So, yeah, really understanding what is being fed back to you really helps you understand where you are in a certain period in your year's training program. And yeah, being informed is definitely underrated.

Yep. Running cadence overrated or underrated again?

I think, I think it's overrated, but it can also be very underrated. So I'm sitting on the fence on this one, Jord. I think it's important, but I think if you're focusing too much on your actual. And did you say running cadence or cadence in general?

I said running cadence specifically. But you can, you can refer to cycling cadence as well, if you want.

Yep. So I'm really trying to make sure that, you know, when we're talking to runners here and we're talking to cyclists, we're talking about two separate things. In cycling, it's underrated. In running, I think it could be possibly overrated. John, you were going to say something?

Oh, yeah, no, I'd agree with that. I think in running cadence it can be important and there is limited evidence to suggest that increasing running cadence would increase efficiency. And, and I'm not going to say reduce injury because they're. Actually, there's an argument for that. I see a lot of that online. But from all the, all the evidence that I've looked into, and I've looked into it very, very thoroughly, all the meta analysis come up with, it doesn't. Actually, there's no evidence suggests that increasing running cadence decreases injury. And that would just be a ridiculous thing to say as a general rule because you just can't generalize like that for most people. But I think running cadence can be important, but I think it's overrated in the running community. Um, but cycling cadence, I, I agree with you. I think that while it. There. We spoke about this in last week's podcast, while there's no optical cadence. I think it is still under an underrated tool to, to use in training.

I've got a great example of one of my long term mates who's been running his whole life and he's now 65. And you know, let's face it, there's are not a lot of people who can still be running in their 60s, 70s and 80s. It's a really small minority of people who have got the resilience to be able to not be injured. And ironically, Jord, this guy, as you know him very well, has got the shortest running cadence. And we've always joked when he was 20, 23, 25, you know, can you take any smaller steps in your running action? And he's the only one really out of our whole group who's still running. And I think him running to a cadence that was not putting his body under load by over striding has been one of the key things that has kept him injury free. He's really got a very economical running cadence. So that's an example of how it can be useful over a period to really prevent injury is to not over stride and cause yourself to actually be injured. There's no evidence to say that his cadence is a reason why he is uninjured, but it is one of the contributing factors, I'm sure.

Yeah, he's a classic case of high cadence, shorter stride length and that combo. The theory behind that combo is it reduces load on the body and so reduces injury. But again, that's not, that is not evidently proven. So again, that's a whole rabbit hole. I'll, I'll reverse it a little bit and talk instead of about cycling cadence. Pedaling technique. Overrated or underrated? So by pedaling technique I'm referring to, you know, almost a push, pull action of, of cycling.

Unbelievably underrated. It is so important to, to get this right. And, and I, I just. This is a whole topic that we could talk for an hour on. We have many times that.

And we've done, we, we've done two. Yeah, we've done two big episodes on this one. Last week on kind of cadence, we touched on this and then previously we've talked about. Oh, we talked about a kind of whole episode of, of pressure on the pedals. So yeah, before you continue, I will caveat and say that this is one from reverse of cadence where there is no proven efficient pedaling technique. But I know you're going to explain why pedaling technique is so underrated.

Yeah, and, and I won't go down that, that topic that we talked about last week. I just want to, I really want to make it simple. And, and pressure on the pedals is something that is a learned skill and, and that is coming from thinking about concentrating on every single time you're on your bike to make sure that you are thinking about, am I pedaling? And using the entire range of motion that I have from the push down, the bottom of the phase, the pull up and over the top. And that's hard to do when you're spinning at 90-100 RPM. You're spinning that quick. You know, every pedal takes less than a second. And for you to keep thinking, how do I engage my whole glute, my whole hamstring, my whole quad, my calf, my foot angle, my action of pushing, pulling, how do I do that every half a second? That is really difficult thing to do. So that pedaling technique has to be practiced and it's so underrated. So if you can get that pressure on the pedal so you can be in charge of pushing softer, pushing, even pushing harder, and, and being in control of. Okay, I need to, I need to ease up on the pressure on the pedals right now, but stay in the range of power that I want to now. I want to push more pressure on the pedal, so I want to raise the power, but I don't want to spike it. And, and I don't want to go if I'm, if I'm riding at 200 and I want to gently go to 2, 205 or 206, I don't want to go to 220 and then come back down to 206. I don't want it to be jerky. I want it to squeeze the pressure on the pedals more. And that takes a lot of practice to get good at that. If I want to ease the power back to 190 from 200, I don't want to stop and end up having an 80 watt reading on my screen. Then go back to 190. I want to gently let the pressure off. And boy, that sounds easy to do that. But try to do that in training and even using your recovery days or your hard pressure, high intensity days. You know, if you can really master that pressure on the pedals, technique, pedaling type of rider and thinking about that and engaging. And I, at the minute I stop concentrating on my pedaling, I can see my power drop or if I'm thinking about something else. And this is a classic if I've been watching while I'M on the trainer indoor watching the finish of Liege, Bastogne, Liege, and seeing Grace Brown sprint. I'm supposed to be riding a recovery ride at 100 watts. I look down, and I'm doing 150 watts because I'm actually in the moment of sprinting with her because I'm so excited about what I'm watching, I've lost the concentration of what I'm doing with my pedaling. So that's an example of you can be distracted by people around you in the bunch or someone up the road or a hill coming up, and you're just not thinking about the pressure on the pedals. And it's hard to think like that the whole time because there's so many distractions that are happening around you. And the person who can think clearly about what am I doing in this particular part of the race. And one of the things I should be thinking about is how much pressure am I applying. Am I applying it evenly? Am I spiking? Am I dropping my power too far? Am I spiking too high? Am I staying in my range? That's the key thing. It's really underrated.

Yeah. And I think you've just nailed the difference in what we're talking about there. We're not talking about, you know, pressure on the pedals is in the efficiency of the pedal stroke. We're talking about the actual cycling skill of. Of being able to ride the two, the pressure and power that you want. And that is such a skill to be able to say, I'm gonna ride at 200 watts right now. I'm gonna sit to 200 watts and I want to jump to 220. I'll do that. And not, you know, if you ever looked at your own power be when you run a ride at 220, but you're jumping from 240 to 200 to 210 to 230. Anyone that's written to power knows how hard that is to ride the way you want. And the reason that you are so good at it. That and it's been kind of your superpower is because for so long, no matter what ride you're doing, whether it's Recovery, Rider, Zone 2, whether you're uphill, downhill, headwind, tailwind, interval session main set, you're not just using the main sets to focus on your cadence and the pressure on the pedals. You are riding with pressure on the pedals all the time. And it's hilarious. We've told this story many times. It's hilarious when you go on rides with people and you are just so focused on the pressure on the pedals that it looks like you're jerking up and down in speed. And that's. You were kind of are in speed, but that's because your pressure on the pedals is exactly the same. Whereas everyone else kind of rides to speed and freewheels over the top of climbs or freewheels on descents, or doesn't keep the pressure even and end up. What ends up happening is every time you're riding, you're improving your ability to do that skill. And you're getting so much more practice in. If you think about seven sessions a week, how much you're putting pressure on the pedals, how much more practice you're getting compared to rider B, who is doing only doing in the main set, so only doing it at certain times, who's going to improve in that skill faster. So I think it's a skill acquisition. And again, we spoke about this a lot last week. But for any cyclists out there who struggle to hold certain power where they want it, you've just got to spend the time improving your skill. And it has to happen all the time on rides. And that pressure on the pedals is. Is what it is, and that's why it's so underrated.

And you know when I'm in a group ride, if I hear the freewheel sound and you know that sound on the bike when someone's not pedaling, the sound that the bike makes, I have to turn around and yell out, pedal. And I just don't want people freewheeling. And that's probably why indoor training is so good, because if you stop pedaling, the power drops straight away. And that's what you should be thinking like when you're outdoors. Every time you're outdoors, you're trying to contribute to the momentum of the bike. So even when you're going down a hill and you're doing 60Ks an hour, I'm still rolling my legs over just to keep the blood flow. And it's not actually contributing to anything about progressing the bike faster, but it's actually helping me. So when we get onto the flat, if I've been going down a hill for 10 minutes, can you imagine the blood pooling that's happening? If you just keep rolling your legs over without any resistance, you're still getting blood flow around the body, which is going to stop that. So there's so many good reasons why you should be actually continuing to pedal at all times. And every time you ride Your bike.

It's just that habit we keep talking about. Just keep practicing those good habits and when it counts, you'll be able to actually do it. So the reverse of that is, and we just kind of mentioned it, you know, focusing on speed on the bike in training or pace running in training. Overrated or underrated?

Yeah, it's got its place. But sometimes in training we have easy runs where speed is just irrelevant. You know, how fast did you go today? You get asked that question, what training session did you do today? I just did an easy run. Oh, what pace did you run? And you almost, you don't even want to answer because it's just not relevant. It's the speed that you ran is the last thing, the last goal that you're trying to achieve in that session. In fact, you could say I failed that session if I ran too fast. So speed is important in that way because it tells you some feedback, but it's actually you trying to get the goal of the session, which is an easy run. And so to answer that question, I don't know what I did for that run. I know that my heart rate was where it should be in zone two and I had that ability to have a conversation with someone and I wasn't huffing and puffing, so I achieved the goal. And then if you wanted to look at your pace as you were running, you would look down and see, yep, I am achieving that. The goal of not running fast, same on the bike. You know, if we're trying to do a session where our goal is to, is to hit power targets and we could be doing some efforts up a hill, five minute hill repeats. Well, how is speed relevant to that session? You know, I might be doing 8Ks an hour up this hill. It's just not relevant. It can be relevant when you're trying to actually match the power to the speed. There are sessions where it is absolutely underrated. We do some sessions like that. The race ready sessions we do where we are trying to make people do equal time out and back so that we can actually find out what the speed is against that power. But on most sessions, if we're training indoor, it just doesn't matter. We're trying to ride to the power range, not the speed. So speed can be important, but most of the time it's something that's not relevant except for those key race ready stuff that really are going to help you then understand what, what speed you can ride on race day and therefore what time you'll ride for that 90 kilometers or 40 kilometer or 20 or 10 kilometer, you know, event that you're doing.

Yeah, I think, yeah, quite simply it's overrated in the sense that you might finish an endurance ride and someone will say, oh, what speed did you average? And while it could be just a question for curiosity, it's just so irrelevant. It's just, I think you always say that training is for power and race day is for speed, you know, and, and on race day the power is the means to get the speed. But in training we focus on the power, we focus on the execution. So that's kind of the summary. Yeah, we'll keep working through. So warm up routine. Overrated or underrated?

Absolutely underrated. It's, it's incredible the examples I've got of, of some, some endurance rides even where I've been riding for maybe two or three hours and I've got a main set that's, that's at the end of the session for a specific reason. It could be that the race we're doing has a really hard component at the end of a bike race where it's got a 10 minute hill climb or something like that. And after riding two or three hours where you know, the body is in a fatigue state, you are able to do a PB performance at the end of a two or three hour training session. And you know, if you tried to do that on the same day and did that in the first 10 minutes, you're trying to do a 10 minute peak power effort and you try and do that in the first 10 minutes, you will struggle to match what you could do at the end of the session even with fatigue because you are, your body is absolutely warmed up. And I've got examples of guys who are doing Zwift races who get four minutes warm up or no warm up before the Zwift race and then they feel horrible in the first five or ten minutes trying to ride the power and pace that the race is being raced at. And then after 10 or 15 minutes, their legs start to feel better. And then you start to almost feel like, you know, you're ready to join in rather than hanging on. And then the other example is do 25, 30 minute warm up. Start the race. You are ready at the first second of the race to ride where you want to ride in your intensity. And when people start our program, they look at our warmups and go, I'm exhausted after your warm up. It's that detailed what you're doing in your warm up. But the reason is because we want to do the main set from the very first running step or swimming stroke or pedal revolution at the power pace that we want to train at and not spend the main set warming up. And it is going to allow you to train properly for the main set for the full time of the main set and not spend half the main set warming up.

Great summary. I think the specific training habit there is, what you just mentioned at the end, it's what is the routine, what is the warm up routine? So what's the period where you're just kind of warming up? When do you ramp it up? What do you do your 30 second efforts at in training? It might be a bit more fatiguing for race day, but you want to practice this routine so that you can just do the same thing on race day knowing it's going to get you in the best shape possible to race. And so if you're not practicing a specific routine in training, then you're not going to do it on race day. So it's a really important habit to get right. Now another couple just to fly through. Hrv Overrated or underrated?

Yeah. And with every topic you raise, Jordan, it's going to be both. And, and it's a really great tool but it's overrated if you're using it in the wrong way. And so I use an OURA ring and I've used it for years. I don't look at my data when I wake up in the morning until I ask myself, how did I sleep? How do I feel? How do my legs feel when I get up and obviously go to the bathroom? And I'm asking myself as I'm going to the bathroom, how are my legs feeling? Do I feel like I have a good sleep? What's my rating out of 10 today? And I would give myself a rating saying I'm feeling very average today. That ride I did or training session I did yesterday, I can still feel that. And that could be a Monday where I've trained hard on a Sunday, it could be a Friday where I've trained hard on a Thursday. Or it could be Saturday morning where I wake up and I've trained easy on Friday and I wake up Saturday going, I feel great today I feel really fresh. And then I'll check my OURA ring data and see what it says. And if it's saying to me and I feel 9 out of 10 it says to me, you should take a rest day today, I'm almost laughing at it going, well, that's just untrue. And that's where it's overrated. The way you feel should be the most important thing. And it could be telling you things that might be happening down the track. It could be telling you that you need a rest day because your heart rate is elevated. And there could be, be definitely finding out that in two or three days you are going to be sick because there's something going on inside your body. So they're really useful for those things. Another example is every time I went to a race, the morning of the race, I would wake up going, I'm excited, I'm peaked, I'm fresh, I'm ready for the race. And my HRV would tell me, you are not ready to race. It doesn't say those words, but basically it's saying you should take a rest day. And I know that it's the adrenaline that's causing that heart rate variability to give me that output. And if I listen to it, it would say, don't race because you're under stress, because HIV is telling you you're under stress. It's not a bad stress. It's a stress of looking forward to the race. That's what my HRV is picking up. And so learning to understand what it's picking up is actually just as important as taking no notice or, or taking a whole lot of notice of what it's telling you.

Yeah, that's a great summary. I think that the summary is, it's, it's. People are overrating it, even though it is a great tool. And I see a lot of friends and a lot of athletes just letting the, the machine dictate to them whether they're tired or not. And I, and I know I have friends who have admitted and say when it tells me I'm tired, I don't go do my session or I don't go to the gym because I let it tell me almost as an excuse when they kind of go, I felt all right. I just, I kind of use the watch as an excuse. So on the other hand, I will say that I just had a friend's dad recently had his life saved from hrv. These, his apple watch kind of alerted him to some huge jumps in, in HRV and heart rate. And he kind of said to his wife, my friend's mum, it happened over a period of a day. And he kind of said, what do you reckon this is like? Is the watch playing up? And she just said, I feel like you should go straight to the doctor. Went to the doctor, got referred straight to a hospital and it turns out his Heart had been stopping for eight seconds at a time and they said if it continued, he was on his way to a heart attack and he got a pacer put in straight away. So quite an incredible story, an incredible use of technology that has literally saved his life there. And so in that regard it is unbelievable and completely underrated. It feels like everyone should, should use it. But from a training perspective, we are definitely thinking that people are overrating it and letting it impact their training. One, I think that won't have a depends answer and I think there's a very clear answer on it. Is TSS score overrated or underrated? So TSS score is your total stress score. So if you're using training peaks or any sort of similar score where it tells you kind of what your total fatigue was for that session, it kind of gives you a number. It could be 87 or 150. It goes, what was the total stress of that session? Is that overrated or underrated?

Those metrics, far out. I'm going to keep saying it's both. If you have the wrong data settings, the training stress score that's spitting out will be so inaccurate it is almost worthwhile you never looking at it. And if you can be that almost anal about making sure you know, I'm talking about if the heart rate meter spikes and it's not true, if you get a reading of 240 beats per minute, which I've had many times, unlike the story you just told, that was a true reading, that person was having abnormal heart rate readings. And sometimes my heart rate strap is just not working properly. I know that this, you know. So therefore that will affect the training stress score of that session because you've got a peak heart rate of 240 beats per minute. So that's going to skew the data. So that's an example. And if your power meter is over reading and it reads 50% higher, which has happened to me many times, when you upload that data to your training peaks, you would have to delete the session because that data is skewing the training stress score because it's not true, it's not real. And so they're examples of why the training stress score can be inaccurate the whole time you get that happening four or five sessions over a period of few weeks, then you can't trust the training stress score. So it has its place. As long as you're understanding that your fatigue in your form and your freshness are related to how accurately you're inputting the data. And so the Example I would give you is my. Garmin tells me whether that was a productive, unproductive training improvement session. You know, there's been times where I know that I'm in really great shape, the session is exactly what I should be doing, yet my garment tells me that was an unproductive training session. And you know, it's just rubbish. It's just something you shouldn't take any notice of. And I get people contacting me who are coaching saying, you know, my HRV is wrong, my TSS says I'm massively fatigued and my, my garment tells me it was an unproductive session and all those things could well be right. But it's just simply because the data is being inputted poorly.

I think it's simply overrated for exactly what you just said. It's, it's very rare that all the data is going to be correct or the settings are going to be correct. It uses generic equations and it for TSS score specifically. I mean, and same with Garmin, it completely overestimates endurance and underestimates intelligence intensity. I can't tell you, but almost every interval session I do it says it's, it's unproductive or lack of load, you know, or lack of total stress score. The endurance sessions in training peaks are always, you know, 160 when you might do a one hour FTP effort. The hardest thing you do, 60 minute time trial and it gives you half the TSS score of A. Because it's talking about load a lot. So again, as with all tools, they have their, their merit and we use them and I look at them all the time and I point them out to athletes and, and yeah, we do absolutely use them, but I think they're overrated in that a lot of people just rely on them. I think that's, that's the key. Summary. Last couple. From a fueling perspective, I think there's one clear underrated fueling habit and one override a fueling habit. Underrated. Still see a lot of athletes not fueling before sessions and it makes a world of difference to the quality of your session. If you're training in the morning, it's a bit harder, but even getting up and getting a gel in, getting some food in or a banana or something before a hard session can really positively impact the session. And especially if you're training at night, making sure you're fueling properly at the end of your work day, potentially one to two to three hours before, depending on the session, riding or running, what your stomach can handle completely underrated way to get to that session feeling energetic. And it's really hard to train after work sometimes when you're super tired. If you're not fueled properly, you're just lacking energy. It's incredible how much better your body feels with food and water. Adequate fueling as well, proper proper fueling for the session. I just think that's totally underrated still.

Yeah. And the example we'd always give is for someone who's doing their endurance sessions on the weekend and they don't eat well on Friday and they get to Saturday's endurance day and their fuel tank is down low and they're starting from a low base and there's only one outcome here and it's going to be you're going to end up with a hunger flat experience. And, and it's purely nothing to do with your fitness. It's to do with the amount of fuel you had on board before the training session started. So there's, you know, as we've had many nutritional experts on our podcast who are telling us that some days you need more fuel than other days, depending on what the goal of the day's training session is. So understanding what's going to happen the next day will determine how much fuel you take on board the day before or the morning of. And that's the thing we're really keen for people to get right is understanding what the session's requirements are or what the day's requirements are and what is involved in your job during the day and how much calories it's burning. So that when you come to do a training session, you're not starting empty because you won't achieve the goal of the session. And that can be easily fixed by just being a little bit more planned.

On the opposite spectrum, one overrated one I wanted to talk about, I'm only mentioning this because it's actually come up a surprising amount of times recently in multiple athletes. Not just a one off, but athletes thinking that they need to consume protein before training and racing. Uh, it's actually one of the worst. Well, there's only three macronutrients plus alcohol. But the worst two to consume before training and racing are fats and protein. We just want carbs and that's adequate fueling. So it's surprising. A lot of people have been having protein before a session or a, a race and it's, it's not what you need. So I just wanted to really point that one out last. So there's, there's gonna be one Big one or two more big ones I want to talk about. But a really quick one is underrated. Calibrating your power meter, that needs to be done as a training habit before every session. If you're not doing that, then you're potentially riding to the wrong power and, and having ineffective sessions. So that's gotta be a habit that you get into. And if you're not used to riding with power, you can forget to do that, but really want to make mention of that. And then last one, this is a bit biased from us, but dad, having a coach. Overrated or underrated?

Oh, definitely overrated. Jordan, you will be so much more successful without a coach. No doubt in my mind.

No, look, I think I put this in.

Sorry, you go, no.

Yeah, it's funny. But I did put some on the list because I can't tell you the amount of times athletes say to us, and whether it's us coaching or another coach, an athlete said to us, I just wish I signed up to you guys sooner. You know, I just wish I didn't waste so much time floundering and being ineffective in training. And I just, if I had these results six months ago, a year ago, I'd be so much further down the track. And so I just don't think you can replace that external perspective on yourself and what you need without an external voice like a coach.

Yeah. And look, as well, I was informed that we try to be, you and I and our coaching staff, we don't know everything and it's hard for us to get perspective ourselves on our own training. And to use you as an example, you need external input about how you're traveling. And to use me as an example, I need it. Even though I've coached myself for 40 something years, I still have got great benefit from people that I trust and think about as mentors. And I'm always running past you or Nick about what do you think is going on with my training at the moment? This is how I feel. What do you think? And you guys are quick to point out to me, well, have a look at what you just did. No wonder you're feeling tired. You know, you haven't got that spacing right. You're too motivated and you're doing too much. All the things that you as a coach yourself would stop your athletes from doing. And I need that perspective just as much as every athlete should. And that's the thing that's going to keep you on track and prevent you from over training, prevent you from under training and it'll Keep you where you should be on any given day or any given week or period in your, in your build towards an event. And I still feel that even though I feel like I'm a self coached athlete that I would not be able to be so successful over the journey without outside influences. And I've had many people who've been unbelievably contributing in the last five or six years. Your input to my performances have been crucial in getting perspective of what I should be and what I shouldn't be doing and what should be happening next. And I'm sure you would be saying the same. You know, as much as you understand how your body function and what's best for you, you still asking me questions, what do you think? And I think that's the thing we're trying to push here is sure you probably know a lot about, about what sessions are good for the general community. I'm talking about individual, individual athletes who think that, you know, they know enough and they probably do. And you know, we've got people who are, you know, tertiary lecturers in exercise sport who are, you know, unbelievably knowledgeable about everything, about what's scientifically right, yet they may not be able to coach themselves well because they're just not getting that perspective from an outside point of view.

Yeah, that's perfect summary. And I think the way we do it is really ideal because I just can categorically say that when I set my own program and how I kind of do it, I set my program, then I have a conversation with you about what you think. We make some changes. When I first do it, it is very much what is needed, but a lot of just what I feel like doing. And that's fine to do what you feel like doing, but you'll point out some things and say, well, you're still missing xyz. You're still, you actually haven't done enough of this and why you might be doing too much of this session. Are you still missing this? Then I'll have to say, okay, you're right. Like I didn't. Whether it was unconscious bias or something, I didn't have that in there because it's a session I potentially don't like doing as much or I don't find as motivating. And then to hear an external voice say, actually this needs to be in there, that's what you need, that's the perspective you need. And so yeah, that's the powerful part. So that's how we'll finish off. I think it's been a massive list, a monstrous list, been a big episode. We hope you've enjoyed it. If you agree that having a coach is underrated and you'd like to get coached by us, you can go to our website Traveller coaching.com and apply to be coached there. We have a guarantee that if you don't improve your FTP in your testing in the first eight weeks, then the coaching is on us and we'll give you 100% refund. So, as always, thank you very much for listening to another episode and we'll see you on the next one. One.