#9: From Middle of Pack to Winning a National Title

All right.

Hello and welcome to another edition of the Trivello Coaching Podcast. I'm here joined with founder of Trivelo Coaching, as always, Gerard Donnelling. And we have a special guest here who is fresh from a ride. They've both just done a ride in the hills. Thanks for joining us, Gerard.

Welcome.

Thanks for having me. All good, all good.

Now, I really appreciate you not getting changed, just getting strapped, sweaty, mess. You guys have just had a hard session.

Yes, actually, it was a beautiful day for a ride, George, which is a little bit different to what we've experienced in the last 15 or 16 weeks.

Yep, that's what makes riding worth it. So we've got Joe on today as a special guest because if you don't know Joe, he's a member of the Trivelo family. He just won the national time trial, individual time trial title at the Masters in Adelaide a couple of weeks ago. It was an incredible win. And so we've got him on today to discuss his journey because it's been a big journey for him to get there, a big journey of persistence and it's really worth hearing. And also, dad won't like talking about it, but he also won a clean sweep at the Nationals, so I'm going to ask him a few questions as well, because, again, you don't like talking about it, but everyone likes hearing about it, so exactly how you did it. So we're going to dive into that today. It's actually really exciting because Joe's story is pretty exceptional. How he got there and winning a Nationals title is no mean feat. So I want to start with your thoughts on. Take us back to when Joe started with Trivelo coaching and where he was at and how he's kind of gone on this journey.

Yeah, there's a couple of ways to look at it. If I look from the two weeks ago, the result, and then think about that and then work my way back to when I first met Joe and the sort of rider he was then. And I just see completely two different people now. And that's the exciting part for me is seeing Joe evolve. He was a strong rider. There was no question he could ride with most groups. And it's hard for Joe to sit here and listen, but, you know, he had really good qualities as a cyclist, but there were certain things he was doing that were preventing him from succeeding. And I'm not saying anything we've not discussed openly. And slowly but surely, Joe listened and started to execute all of the things that we suggested would help him become a Better cyclist. And, and the main thing that I think that was Joe's holding him back was that he was training the same way all the time and training too hard and not training hard enough. And that is something that I've always said, you know, in order to train harder, you need to train less intensity. And that was the one thing. And even right up to race day, you had become such a better writer with that key goal in mind. And you know, when I asked you to train harder, you trained harder. When I asked you to do more recovery easier, you actually started to do it properly. And it was only until that happened that your writing changed. And the second thing that Joe, Joe had more self belief and that was such a crucial aspect of him believing that he could actually do it. And you know, that was something that took a long time and I just think that was, that was the turning point when you started to believe that you could do it. That to me was, yeah, just fantastic turning point and got the desired result.

So what happened? You've had a few cracks. This is obviously your first nationals win. If you had a few cracks years before, what was the best result you had?

Three, three years ago, Queensland, I finished 11th and John won. John Kane won. So, you know, so always looking at what John was doing, how far behind John were you? Over a minute. You know, long enough to know I wasn't in his league. And then last year was. Finished fourth, same category as John again, but yeah, I was third until. Until the last rider came in, so that was a bit disappointing. But again, I was off. There was a time gap still, so I knew I wasn't quite at the level still.

Do you think that was mental or physical or still a bit of both.

Definitely a combination of both. Yep. Joe wasn't quite at the level that he is now a year ago, so, you know, it's okay. Saying if you do these things straight away and you have the right mental attitude and belief that you'll change. It takes three years to get to that point. It just doesn't happen in, in a minute. And that's the hard part for people to, to really. They're not patient enough. And Joe was. However long this is going to take, I'm on the journey with you, so. And the guy who won last year's time trial at Mee Tung beat John Kane and he was there this year and he beat Joe.

Beat him?

Yeah, Joe beat him. And Joe was beaten by him last year by. Would have been a minute.

Yeah, over a minute. Yeah, yeah.

So that was more Satisfying to beat the guy who had won it the previous year. And by the way, John Kane had won six or seven in a row, had not lost a national TT time trial.

Yeah, yeah. That's a really valuable lesson in two parts because one, we get a lot of people saying, I want to achieve this goal in 16 weeks. And you go, jeez, you're not giving me much time. And also just willing to not just take longer than 16 weeks, but willing to go for as long as it takes. And if that's three years, then so be it. Yep, yep. So take me through the last year then, because it was fourth. Fourth place. How did you feel after coming fourth and in terms of your headspace and thinking about the next year?

I just felt I didn't like. Well, the form that I filled in when I joined Trivelo. I can't remember the exact question, but something along the lines of, what do you want to achieve? I think I, I just wrote, I just, just want to win something because I, you know, spent years writing and watching guys, you know, always get over the top of us. So that, that was pretty. That was always in the back of my mind. And then the last year, I guess I come to the. I guess my. What I felt was that I had Gerry providing me with these programs and I didn't. I felt like in the last year I finally decided to fully commit to the program. So I would do, you know, I used to say to myself, you know, every session, every number, just do what you're being told. And, you know, because I felt like Jerry is fully committed the way the type of person he is, he's fully committed to me, and I need to be fully committed to the program to, to see where it could take me. And, and there was enough, there was enough evidence around me, you know, John Kane and Tim and all the guys that are achieving stuff. And Jerry, well, particularly Jerry and watching him train, I had the Ben, I had the luxury ride, the.

Yeah.

The benefit of training with him for the last 12 weeks leading up to the nationals and watching him achieve the clean.

Sweet.

So I had all this around me, going around me, and, and I'm thinking, well, it's. There it is.

Yeah.

And also there's, you know, from a family point of view, I'm committed time wise, so I need to maximize what I'm doing here. Otherwise they're just looking at me thinking, what are you doing? Yeah, spending all these hours, but you're, you're getting the same result. You know, either you're entitled to Feel like that too.

Yeah, yeah.

So there were a number. I think that was one of the important things that I finally committed to the program. It was interesting listening to Gerry, you know, sort of say that, you know, I was trying to. My recoveries were starting to become more like recoveries and yeah, that was. Sounds strange that I'm talking, we're talking about the recovery being. But they obviously were so important because they enabled me to go out and do the harder sessions better. Yeah, yeah.

And what about the preparation? You know, 12 weeks out when you start going, all right, we're here now, everything else is more building around the base and just developing yourself as a rider. But 12 weeks out you kind of go, or 10 weeks out you kind of go. Right, we're 10 weeks away. What do we do? Yeah.

And I think the discussions Joe and I have had evolve around getting everything going our way. And that starts from obviously having the benefit of a really good program. That's the first thing. If you haven't got a program to work to, that hasn't been successful. And we know that these programs work from the previous people who've done them and succeeded. So you've got to have that. But it's all the other things. The, the strength and conditioning, the stretching, getting enough sleep, the nutrition, the altitude, sleeping, the pre ride preparation, the, the in ride, drinking nutrition, the post ride, you know, every single thing we could think about, who are we riding with on what days, getting the right people to ride with the right venues. It's just not one thing. It's a combination of at least 10 different things. And I've probably missed out on bike setup. Yeah. Getting in the right, that's a great point.

Yeah.

Sitting yourself and you know, give yourself the best chance to ride the best if you're sitting in the right position.

Yeah.

So. So really that's our thought process and that's what we discussed all that time out. We're going to do this properly. And I suppose from my point of view, I wasn't in very good shape. Whereas Joe was coming into it, had really good bass and it was now, now building his confidence and his self belief, but also executing all the 1 percenters. And boy, did he embrace those. You know, I said we need to sleep at altitude. You went and got that organized, even though it was, you know, we didn't probably get enough time on that. But you know, taking beetroot juice two days out before, you know something that's a natural product. That is the testing's proven. Having a skin suit that's fast. Having a helmet, that's fast. Sitting in the right aerodynamic position on the bike. All these things are just so crucial. The warm up, having that right, having that down pat and knowing that every time you go to a race, this is my warm up and it gets me so ready for the race. And probably one of the good things that happened was we had the state titles probably four weeks out, I think, and Joe actually won the state title. So it was his first major title that he'd ever won. And that I think for him was a turning point in his own self belief was far out. I just won a title.

Is that true? Is that.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. No disrespect to the field, but it wasn't like, you know, there wasn't a really deep field. So obviously I was confident that if I did a good ride, I was going to be thereabouts.

It's another, another humbling answer from Joe. His time and his power on that day were equivalent to of the best riders there. So it doesn't matter who's in his race, it's just comparing that to, to some of the better time trials. Yeah. And he's, you know exactly where you were in the field.

Yeah.

Seventh. Yeah. Is that right?

Yeah.

Overall as a 55 year old against 30 year olds, Joe's the seventh fastest time trialer on that day. So now one of the things I said to him, you've arrived. This is it.

And this, the reason we wanted to do this podcast isn't just to make you feel uncomfortable and talk about how good you were, but it is a really good story of persistence. And so that's the reason you don't like talking about yourself. It's not just about the winning or you always say the end result comes from the work that you do. And we just want to talk about that work because a lot of people would be asking, what did you do then to wipe off a minute from last year? What was different about this preparation? All those 1%, as you said, are one thing, but how did you know that coming to this year's preparation, that what did you do that really got. Got that minute off and got him to that level?

Is that to me or to Joe?

Well, as I was asking as a coach.

Yep. Okay. Yep. I don't want to dominate the conversation because I really want to hear from Joe and how he felt things were different. So probably you start, Joe, tell me.

Yeah, just, just every session, every number, I just was confident that, yeah, if I just kept, you know, look at the program on a weekly, you know, because Jerry releases it only a week in advance. And you look at the program, and I'd just pick out the sessions which were gonna challenge me the most. And I'd do everything to try and make sure I was the freshest I could be for that session and make, you know, if I was. If I was going to fail a session during the week, I didn't want it to be that session that was going to challenge me the most. I was hoping that. Hoping it'd be another one because I'd managed that session in particular. So a couple of the challenging sessions would have been on the velodrome, the four by eights or.

You know, sort of Wednesdays.

Yeah. So it was just. I can't. I don't have another explanation for it other than that. And then, of course, the proof, so to speak, was coming out in the pudding in terms of. Gerry was organizing the itts down on Beach Road. And every time. Once every three weeks or something, and every time I did one of those numbers were creeping up and the time was dropping down. But we're only talking about minuscule differences. But they were. You know, if the time dropped by 10 seconds, but the watts were up by five, and. But you just. This. You get this momentum. We were talking about it before, and you suddenly start to think, hang on a minute. And I'm not in. I'm not in full race mode here. Or I'm not. We've still got six weeks. And, yeah, we're not tapered. We'll be on the back of a Saturday ride. And I'm not fresh. And. And I'm still. I'm still improving. And. And I don't. Yeah, I still see that. I feel like I don't. I haven't reached a plateau that I'm not. I still feel like I can improve. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because of the program. And I've sort of seen, if I do the program and recover well for the next session, that I can improve and feel like there's still areas of my writing that I still need to improve.

How's that for proof of improvement? Because a lot of people who are riding for years just feel like they kind of maxed out on their improvement. They might have improved previously when they started out, but after a few years. And that is the principle of diminishing returns, where your improvement does get smaller and smaller. But definitely that can be a false belief that you don't have any more to go.

You've heard me, and so have you, Joe. Heard Me say that many times that if you continually repeat the same thing, you'll get the same. Same result.

Yeah.

So at that point, when we decided that the nationals was going to be our focus. Yeah, we. We had to rejig and provide some overload so that we get improvement again.

Yeah.

And. And that's what we did. And one of the things that was, you know, it's always hard to pinpoint one thing, but because there's at least a dozen things that we changed, but there are really tiny changes, such as making sure that we had time trial practice under race conditions against other people. It didn't matter that you weren't at an event, but we were providing our own event. As Joe talked about the beach road time trials and we. I think we did four of them, plus the competition events that were organized. So we ended up probably having six to eight time trials in that 1612 weeks. So it was almost one every two or three weeks. We were having a race situation. So come race day, you are so in tune with racing. The preparation, the execution and it's. The anxiety is just so much less. Whereas someone who's had one or two races and gets to the race, you know, the state time trial title was, you know, it's a big deal. A big deal. But, you know, as Joe would say, you know, how anxious were you on that day? How. What was your anxiety level like?

Yeah, no, it was fine on state day and they were, you know, pretty atrocious conditions. That was more if I was anxious or it was more about, you know, making sure I stayed upright. Yeah. Then.

Yeah.

You weren't anxious about your performance or.

How you were going to ride on.

At the state titles? No, not really. I never saw the state titles. Wasn't really a goal, to be honest. It was just. It was another. I just saw it as another. It was the equivalent really to me as the beach road races. I held it in the same sort of. It was important to do and important to. It was a great one to do in terms of executing in atrocious conditions. You know, sort of making sure you thought about what you did when.

I.

Thought the state titles. And so that was good from that point of view, because. Don't know. But, you know, maybe there's people that haven't. Didn't prepare in those kind of conditions. Yeah.

Those dozen things that you talk about that you change a lot of things that must have given you confidence compared to other years you must have been feeling, especially leading into the actual nationals.

Yeah.

All these things you've changed that are 1% that add up. How much confidence did that give you?

Yeah, no, it's kind of. Yeah, just confidence just gave me a surety that if we, if we executed to our. Our numbers that we would produce a good time and that would be in the ballpark for, you know, we thought for the podium. Pretty much. Yeah. That's the kind of. Yeah. I don't call it confidence so much as just. Yeah, assurance is a good word. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the things that we didn't kind of mention was this is how far we went. A group of us flew to Adelaide Horse recce and. And went. And what's the word?

Air course, recon reconnaissance.

Reconnaissance reconciled is it? But went over the course. And so we knew it intimately. The road closed course and the time trial course. And that's going the extra step. You know, that's the thing I was talking about before the 1 percenters. That was a huge effort, expense, time consuming, away from your family. But Joe was willing to. I said, that's what we're doing. He said, yep, what date? And that's the sort of response that, you know, I just loved about coaching Joe. It was not, you know, and there was never a complaint about. It was like, you think I can do that? I'll have a go at it. And.

And it was so important because I came away from that. I've still got the numbers in my head. There was a, a pothole at 4.7, a pothole at 7.7. There was a left turn at 9k mark and it was a tight left turn. But we, because of the recce, we. I'm sure you powered through it and were on the horns and I heard guys afterwards saying they, you know, got off of the horn and rode around it and, you know, didn't pedal and.

There was no way. And there's four seconds gain.

Yeah.

Guess what? You won by seven.

Yeah, that's it, you know.

Yeah. Who would know?

And you do that corner twice, of course, on the way out and on the way back. So yeah, it was sort of knowing the courses. Yeah. Super. I don't know how you do a TT without knowing the course. Yeah. Now that's not in my. That's not in my thinking ever, you know, sort of to be able to go. Yeah.

And look, the tapering week. We talked a little bit about that as well. Obviously all the other races, like some of those beach road races, we wrote 150k the day before and then lined up and Joe still did a PB on beach road the next day. And those signs to me are some, someone who's, who's really the form is coming. And I've always said you can't hold form for a long time. You know, that's just the nature. It's just too difficult. There's got to be periods where you maintain form. But certainly working backwards from race day to the start of our program, we needed to have periods where. And that's why the state was good, because we had a little mini taper and got a little recuncy and then performed quite well obviously, and then got our heads back down and then had one more block of training and tapered. And I think that Joe is. Every athlete I coach is different. So one taper doesn't suit everybody. And for Joe it was get rid of the fatigue and the volume. And we started doing a lot of short, hard, shorter, intense stuff. But there was no volume. So his fatigue was just getting rid of. By the time he got to race day, it was fresh as he's ever been. So that was something that I think we did quite well with Joe.

And the short, intense stuff was great because it felt like the engine was still revving and ticking. It didn't. You know, I think there are people that taper that cut out volume, intensity, just rest and they kind of feel like they're not quite awake. Awake, yeah. Whereas I didn't feel that at all. I felt like, yeah, it was sort of.

So I want to know more about the actual execution of the day because you've done all this preparation, you've tapered well, you've done as many of the 1 percenters as possible. And you said to me before we started this that when you got to the line you were again assured. But you also noticed the guys around you weren't so assured.

Correct? Yeah. So the good thing was the warm up area was about 4 km from the start line. So. So as Jerry mentioned before, we'd had a chat prior to the race that we wanted to make sure we stuck to our plans. So that would reinforce, you know, sort of reinforcement, mindset.

What did you say?

We just smack each other in the back of the head?

If we said, if I look at the data, when you, when you finish this race and you have gone too hard in the first 5k, when we know the race is from 5k onwards, I'll smack you in the back of the head. And I said, you're welcome to do that to me. And that was to just remind ourselves that the race can be lost. In the first 5k, it can't be won. And the hardest sections in time trialling is when you need to be the best rider you possibly can, not when it's easy. And a lot of people made that mistake in that race because it was very fast downhill with a few uphills and you feel like a million dollars.

Yeah.

And you know, pretty soon you're carrying a piano because you've gone too hard and you can't pedal. Yeah. So it was really important that the start you hold back.

Yeah. Yeah. So in that four kilometer little roll down to the start line, I was just sort of saying to myself, don't waste the work, you know, execute, you know, just follow the plan. Don't waste all your training efforts. And then we got to the start line and yeah, I was noticing that I felt really calm and others around were a bit more fidgeting and didn't think about it too much then, but I just recall it now and then that first 5Ks that Gerry talks about, I just. I must have repeated about 30 or 40 times to myself, just, control, control. Every time I look down, number was getting a bit high. I was just able to bring it back because just constantly saying to myself, yeah, control, control. And then the second leg where we crossed the crossroads and went out to the turnaround point. Same sort of thing, just keep a lid on it. Control. It still felt like it was. Wasn't the time to, you know, sort of give whatever was left. And that was the bit that had the climbs in it. And then got to the turnaround point, turned and started coming back, and I was third last off. And the second last rider, I'd hit lap when I hit the turnaround point. And the second last rider, we'd pass across paths at 45 seconds. So if we're going a minute off, I figured that I had time up on him. And then the chap who won it last year, he came around a corner close to the other champ. So I figured he was about 50 seconds away from the turnoff. And so he having left two minutes after me, I figured he was in front of me and. And so for a moment I sort of thought, oh, that's first place gone. And then I thought, no, you've been writing control. Now's the time to, you know, do what you can to the line.

And.

Yeah, and just started writing. And suddenly I hadn't actually thought about any of the riders in front of me up to lent, because I was just thinking about our own numbers and. And suddenly I was changed to a competitor, didn't you? Yeah. And two or three riders came up. So I thought, I'm actually moving all right. I'm actually going okay. And. And that just sort of fed into that. You know, I sort of had wanted to keep the bike speed up and just fed into the whole return league, and I was pretty stoked with that return because if that guy had time up on me, I obviously was able to pull that back and a bit more. And. And it was pretty fast compared to Rossi and Stephen Lane. It was. Yeah. Within nine seconds of Rossi and 20 of Steve Lane on the way back. So I was doing something right.

Yeah.

Or the Alex. Our plan was right.

Yeah.

Because I was able to pull that out. And it was an unreal feeling, really.

What a way to come home as well. Did that. That's the mentally hardest part of the race. That last 5k when it's really hurting. Do you feeling really good there or you starting to fade at all or.

Oh, no, it was hurting. Yeah, it's definitely hurting. I think there's a photo of me on that. On that corner coming back, and mouth's wide open, and I can't get enough oxygen in.

Your focus and your mindset's too different, though, isn't it? This is what I've trained for. This is why I'm here. I'm. I'm just going to. I can breathe for 10 seconds after the race.

Yeah.

I am going to give it everything, and if I get to the finish and it's not good enough, that's fine. Yeah. But I don't want to leave myself wondering, oh, if I could have, I should have.

Yeah.

In any a event that you train and prepare for, there are times when you follow the numbers, and then there are times when you go for a pb. And that point you're talking about was now it's time to switch from a rider who's following the plan to now. You're released from the plan, and you now are totally focused on riding as fast and a bigger number as you can. And that's what performance on the big day is about. Performing a PB on the day. Otherwise, we would just perform the same standard race every week. We want to better the previous race. So these are the numbers you've done before. That's not equal.

Then.

Yeah, that's the time for you to. Which is what you did. You've changed the mindset from, okay, I followed the plan. Now I have to race now. And that's what won you that race. Your ability to Understand how to execute from a following instructed plan to. Now I'm racing.

Yeah.

And, you know, winning by seven seconds, you've probably beaten that guy by 25 seconds over the last section. If you were 10 or 15 seconds behind him, you've, you know, you've won by seven and caught 15, so. Showed you. Had you not followed the plan, you wouldn't had the power to finish like that.

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. Yeah, it was. So we. We still talk. You know, we've talked about it since, that it felt like on that first and second leg that you could have ridden up beside us and asked us how we going. Yeah, it was all right. You know, I don't know why, but it just felt like that. It felt. And, you know, at times I sort of thought, oh, maybe I should be going harder or. Because I'm feeling like that. But the numbers don't lie.

And one of the things we talked about was you will feel fantastic because it's not like any other week that we've had in 16 weeks or 12 weeks because there is no fatigue. You are racing tapered.

So.

So don't be fooled.

Right.

Oh, I feel unbelievable. This isn't even hurting me for 15 minutes or, you know, 16 minutes, you know, and all of a sudden it will kick in. If you execute poorly, then you'll. I've got half a dozen people I've spoken to who rode too hard and came home like a snail. Tapered. And don't confuse the tapering for. You know, that's one of the key things, I think, is why the plan is so important. Because obviously it's the freshest you'll feel in 16 weeks. Yeah. So you feel like you're, you know, Superman and you can ride fast. Way faster than this.

But.

But it's still about patience. No matter whether the event's 30 minutes or two hours or five hours. Yeah. It's just executing over that distance.

Yeah.

And I think that's the one thing you've learned so much better than when we first started. Yeah. You probably had similar. You're a better writer now, but you were still a good rider. But you just had no plan to execute in any time trial. And you don't even understand how much, you know now compared to guys who turn up to a time trial. Still think it's about writing as hard as you can for as long as you can.

Yeah.

And that's how they ride.

Hopefully that will produce a result. Yeah.

And that actually makes sense logically what's a time trial. But you Know what is the event? Is it got hills, has it got wind, has it got downhills? You know, and you need to have different plans for all those sections. And we are always dividing the course up, aren't we, Joe? Into sectors and.

Yeah.

And you know, that's what I'm saying about your knowledge of time trialing is people.

Yeah.

People just think it's just, well, fastest guy wins or he does, but the person who executes the best will win better than the fastest guy.

Yeah.

We actually did a podcast on this. The podcast was how to execute the perfect time trial. And you can go listen to it.

Right.

But we recorded it and you actually asked me not to release it before nationals because it was the plan that you guys were going to implement and you didn't want the competitors to know because if they implement this plan. Plan, it's such an effective plan. And it's funny that we talk about the three people from Tribalo that stuck to this plan, won the national title. So in that you, Joe and Rossi.

No, it's so true. And I was really adamant to George because this is. The podcast had so much about not only the execution in the race, but the type of sessions you should be doing. Your pre race preparation, your taper, your warm up, every single aspect. When to warm up, how to time your start time backwards from your warmup, all the things you've learned.

You just.

Forget about all that stuff.

Yeah, well, the first couple of times I did when I joined the trivela, I could never get to the venue in time. It was a rush. I could never do a warm up.

You were that guy at the nationals who was fumbling with his gun.

That's it.

And something's not. The tires are not tied and I haven't got my number on and you're. You're at the, at the start in time.

Yeah.

Calm and even having the right information on your screen. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, sure.

To make sure that you've got lap power. Average power, average speed. Yeah, just heart rate, cadence, the right. The right data to be feeding back to you.

Yeah.

And people are just got time on their screen or whatever.

So if you want to listen to the exact plan that they followed, then you can go listen to that podcast goes into detail how you actually did it. So it seems like an obvious question, but how did you feel once you realized you won?

Well, I got back to the. Well, I looked down at my watch and after I crossed the line and I thought 24 was be a good time on the course, but obviously it was under that for me, I mean, and got under that and I thought, oh, okay. And then got back and Troy and Jen were at the, at the tri valet and they were looking at the thing and they said, all the riders are back in. You're still at the top. So I didn't believe them at first, but then I had a look and yeah, there it was. So that was pretty cool.

It was a pretty special five minutes, I'll tell you.

Yeah, I was special too because yeah, I came off the bike nine days before and with Troy doing a two man tee, it was my fault. Well, car came out of side street, didn't look like it was going to stop and I was too, too close on Troy's wheel and you know, dark in the morning and whatnot. But anyway, I came down and you know that obviously the first thought is what's, how's this going to impact on the national sales? Like, I know Troy might have felt a bit bad about that as well and I don't know. So it's pretty cool that it didn't affect anything. Yeah, so I was pretty.

It's a journey, isn't it, to go from way back at the start when you couldn't turn up on time to standing on the podium at nationals.

Yeah, my visions of Joe on the podium, that was the. That's kind of. Yeah, you don't you envisage that that might be what the result might be. But to finally see him there with the medal around his neck on the top podium is. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Very emotional.

And of course I got to see Jerry on the podium three times and he got the national jersey, which was my second goal for the national chance that I didn't quite achieve. So that was pretty, pretty special to see him train through.

Sorry, yeah, I was just going to say before your next point, there was a couple other guys who actually went as a group to the nationals, one in particular and there was other people as well who really prepared quite well and they didn't get the top podium, but they still did a PB on the day and outperformed. And I'm talking about Troy in particular. You know, he had Tom Marsh as well, who probably his first go at it, although his first real go at it, but executed really poorly, did the first half too hard, etc. That's a learning experience.

But you won't mind just saying that.

No, definitely not. And he knows that. We've had a big discussion about it. But Troy's performance on the day was Outstanding. But at the end of the day, it didn't get in the top podium and there's a lot of good riders in his age group and you know, it, it is not all about the result is the journey and the process. And that's one of the things that people have got to remember. If you get beaten on the day by people who are better than you, then you, you've got to be happy with, with exactly what, what you've, what you've done, how you've gone about it. And it's disappointing to not get the top result. But I think, you know, kudos to Troy. I really think that he, he was probably, in terms of performance, he might have performed better than Joe, better than myself, definitely. Rossi would say this in terms of personal performance. Troy was probably the number one performer in our, in our group that day, yet didn't get on the podium. So, you know, as much as we all, yeah, as much as we all love winning, it's not everything. It is, it is reward. But, you know, Troy's still, he's one of those people who's going to win a national title and it's just persistence and he is improving every single year he's been doing it. So, you know, it's really good for people to hear that and that, you know, just because you had a great preparation doesn't mean you're going to get the end result. You've still got to have things go your way. So. So Troy also rode the road race and was outstanding and ended up almost riding solo and held his position just off the podium. He got fourth and fifth in the time trial in the road race, so he missed out on third by seven seconds in the time trial and missed out on winning by 20. So there's not a lot in it. So there's just little margins there, here and there. So. So for people listening to how Joe executed and how it all went, there are other people who did exactly the same program almost, but there would be differences in their preparation too, personal differences. What they were doing. When I'm asking them to do certain things, whether they do it or not, is it still up to them? But I know 100% that Jo's done everything beyond when I'm telling him that he has to do a second session in the afternoon on the rollers, there it is. Comes up, it's done. Whether he started at 8:30 at night or 9:00 clock at night, he's done it. So people need to hear that. That's the sacrifices that he Made that eventually got to where he ended up. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. But it's not that easy. There are things that are going to take a sacrifice to get to that, to that eventual result. And it's, as we said at the start, it's a combination of a lot of things. But. Yeah, so sorry to cut you off.

No, that's fine. We won't keep Joe too much longer because we wouldn't let him go to work. But I think what I wanted to know after the whole experience from both of you, I mean, what did you learn from. From the last three years? But getting to this point. And again, winning isn't everything, but getting the result you wanted. What are the biggest things you've learned going forward and what do you want to take or just had other people that have tried to persist as well, but maybe stuck or just aren't quite getting the result.

I've just learned that the program works. I just, yeah, learned that, yeah, you can improve, you know, sort of been. I keep saying to a few people, it's sort of a bit of a self, you know, it feels like it's a self discovery. Another self discovery for me personally. You know, I never. Gerry said to me when I joined, you know, you're good. In one of those brutal conversations, you know, you're a good 80 to 90% rider. And you know, that's basically, that's you a lot unless you change the way you train. So, you know, that was a little bit difficult to hear, but it was the truth because that's only wherever I trained and rode at, that was it. And I was sort of almost scared to ride beyond 100, you know, to ride, to really hurt myself. And still when I look at that program, I think, oh, those days looking, you know, nine by ones or something and you know, 100 and whatever, 120 to 150, 160% of your threshold, but whatever, you know, you still look at that and think, oh, jeez, that's gonna. It's gonna hurt. But yeah, more. More often than not these days you seem to be able to find a way to hit. Hit those numbers. And then you sort of come away from thinking, oh, shit, I can, I can do this.

And yeah, there's a couple of Wednesdays. There was one in particular, I remember, and I think I was really struggling on that Wednesday and we were doing some strength efforts on the 1 and 20. After we'd done our whole session, it was the finish and I could barely push the pedals on the first effort, and we're supposed to do three. And I just said to Joe, unfortunately, that's it for me. I can't ride. I was getting cramp. Something was wrong. Just one of those days. And some other people go, oh, yeah, okay, we'll stop there. Joe went straight back down the hill, back up, and did his next strength effort. I was waiting at the top to see what he was doing. Then I realized, he's going to do all three. Of course. What am I thinking? And Rossi and I went home, and Joe came back home, I don't know, 35 minutes later, having done all three and progressed the way we'd asked him to, didn't miss a beat. That's the sort of thing that, you know, if your body's still able to do what the session says. And for me, that day, it didn't. I couldn't. I couldn't execute. And it's time to shut it down. And that's another thing you have to learn when you. When you know it's not right, then don't keep pushing the barrow too far. Otherwise you put yourself into a hole.

But.

But the point I was trying to get was that, you know, Joe's program was the program and how 100% he was focused on doing it. That was an example of, yeah, I've still got my program to do. I'll see you when I get back home, which was pretty impressive.

It's probably an indicator of this year's preparation compared to other years.

Yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I think Jo's ability and willingness to embrace the change. When he said earlier, I'm going to do it 100%. And look, I had the same conversation with Rossi. You know, we've worked together for three years, and Rossi's a good rider. He's a very elite, a grade writer and, you know, not willing to 100% trust me. And he would. He would agree with this conversation wholeheartedly. He just wanted to do his version. Those sessions are good, but I'll just do my own version. And he was still doing well, there's no doubt about it. But we had a couple of. I think he had a little bit of an injury, and then we decided just to part ways a little bit for six months or so. Then I got a phone call. He said, all right, I'm going to do it your way, 100%. And I said, unbelievable. Fantastic. Let's go. The first goal was the nationals at Meitang Mee Tang. The two are bright, and we were thinking about doing the elite time trial. He come out and beat everybody, got the fastest time at the nationals.

Only person under 20 did the program 100%.

He trained exactly the same way as Joe. Everything we said he did, he did. Then he went to the Tour of Brighton, beat everybody there, was second fastest, including the elite on the tt. And really just another example of the program's great if you embrace it 100%, but it's not just, here's the program, go do it. It's a conversation. How are you feeling, Joe? Are you okay this week it's those things that, as I said, you can do a program from the Internet, but it's 50% a program that we know works. Plus, having a coach to actually guide you along the way is going to make the difference. And having that feedback for me is the only way you'll get better. Here's a program, off you go. No hear from me again. That's. It's just not going to cut it because you just, you're blind with, you know, it says I should do it. I feel shocking. It says I should do it. So I go and do it and I get worse. And that's kind of one of the things that I think I've learned the most out of when coaching people is that the program will work as long as it's a partnership between the athlete and the coach. And I get the good feedback. I'm giving them the good information, but I need the good feedback to let me know how they're coping. And it is a much better outcome. If it's a team sort of focus where the coach and you are, you won't. And hopefully that's what you experienced.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was doing that. Like we said before, when I committed to the program, then there was this real synergy and this, you know, almost this continual progress that I could see happening within me. Sort of things were seemingly happening all the time. You know, felt like the graph was always going up.

Don't forget, Joe's gone from when we first started to being a young 50 year old to now in his mid 55. And he's riding that much better than he was five years ago, six years ago. And people say, oh, I'm getting older, I'm going to get slower. Well, that's possibly true, but not if you're willing to put the work and the effort and have the right information to train to. You know, we've got Nick Granger who's done the same for five years. His times have improved as a 65 year old to 69 year old. So if anybody comes to me saying, I just want to, you know, I just want to hold my. Well, I'm saying, why? Why don't you want to get better? I don't care what age you are, you can get better. Joe's proved it. He's gone from, you know, middle of the pack, 11th place in a time trial three years ago, four years ago, whatever it was. Three.

Yeah.

To on top of the podium. You know, the rider you were then and the writer you are now completely different people.

I think that's one of my favorite things you say is that age isn't a barrier. No, it will be a barrier at some point. But you always say, you know, we've got Nick Ranger who's still going. Yeah, we're improving to his 70s. So.

Yep. Yeah, it's exciting for everybody to understand that. You know, I get a couple of guys who are just turning 40, 39, going, oh, I'm getting older, you know, losing a little bit of my form. I'm just laughing. What are you talking at that age? Yeah, yeah.

So, no, that's really good. I really appreciate you coming on Joe to tell your story. It's awesome for me to watch and for me to hear and hear dad's perspective. Is there anything else that you'd like to add in terms of your perspective? Especially you said to me after that it was one of the most emotional wins you feel like you've had as a coach.

Absolutely. And even now, when I think about it, I still get emotional. If I can link it to how you feel as a parent. Whenever my kids succeed, I don't mean succeed as in winning. I mean succeed as in just performing above their level. It's just, that's the feeling I get from a coach. That's what I experienced with you and Rossy and Troy and the guys who perform poorly. It's a completely reverse feeling. It feels like you've let them down, you haven't done something well for them. But the other scenario on the other side is it's just the best feeling. It's better than me winning. People say, oh, that's a bit hard, but. But I got more satisfaction out of seeing you win than me winning my race. And that's the feeling I have when my children have done something well, you're so proud. It's very emotional. It's good.

I love that point. And it's good that you really made it clear that it's not just about the podium. The podium is a great result for riders that put in that effort. But like you said before, someone that does a PB is as impressive as a podium for them because they performed on the day. And we didn't go into it too much today in terms of your preparation performance. But that's an interesting one because everyone expects dad to win.

Yes.

Whereas I know that 10 weeks out you were not in a state to win. And I think we might talk about that another time because I really do want to talk about it. But it is just comparing your personal performance.

The only one thing which is which form, what we talked about before, form is something that never, it never leaves you. If you've been a good writer and you've been to the top level, the self belief is there. It's just doing the work. Whereas with Joe, it was the opposite. He was always doing the work, but he didn't have the self belief. He needed to tinker with the work. There's no doubt about that. But from my point of view, the expectation of winning, I know that I can do it, I've done it. And I'm not going to be boasting here. I'm just telling people the way my thought process works is I've won that three times. Can I do it a fourth time? That was my challenge to myself. You heard me. If I'm going to do this, I have to get my mind right. And I know what the program, I know what program I have to do. It's there in front of me, but I have to get my mind right. Am I willing to commit 100% to doing it? And that was the difference between me 12 to 16 weeks out. I was in really poor form. And you would, you know, you saw how poorly I was writing and just getting my mind right, that okay, if I want to perform on the day, work backwards from that point and what do I have to do in between? And one of the things is be motivated to do everything correctly. And you know what I did with diet with my all the 1 percenters, no alcohol, excellence. Walking, walk the dog every day. Walking is a crucial part of recovery. I was in the altitude tent for four weeks and at 4,000 metres and you know, all the things I knew that would help me. But as long as I was positive mentally having done it before, and this is something that the next step for Joe, now you've done this, you must. And I think there's a couple of podcasts we talked about with Andre Agassi, when he was a winner, how he handled himself when he was getting beaten and losing, the difference in his outward. I don't even know how to describe it.

Demeanor.

Demeanor.

Yeah. So you've got a. You don't want to be arrogant, you want to be humble in victory. But, but you've done it, you've been to the top of the tree for that particular event. Now I'm going to go there again and again and again. And you know, your next challenge is the tour of Brighton and that's, that's something that's going to be awesome for you to embrace. And, and now that you know you can time troll against the best in Australia, you know that's the next challenge for you and you should have that confidence now that.

Oh yeah, well, I definitely don't want to be a one hit wonder, so Definitely, you know, sort of got my head. Feel like my head screwed on right in terms of that challenge.

Yeah.

And I did. With regards to your dad, it was pretty amazing. I had the benefit of doing maybe two, at least two training rides a week. So I did see the progress in that last 12 to 16 weeks. And then at the nationals to see him race, I obviously didn't get to see him do the TT because we were on the course roughly the same time. But to see him win the road race and the crit and to see him win, you know, disassemble the field if you like, particularly in the road race, yeah, that was pretty amazing. So, you know, from my point of view, that was a great. I've had a tremendous advantage, I reckon, over a lot of people. To experience his progression over that 12 weeks and then to ultimately win every race, that's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Yeah.

The road race, it's got about a 600 meter flat bit at the top to the line after the climb and when Jerry crossed the line, there was no sign of anybody else still in the distance. So yeah, that was pretty incredible.

Thanks, Joe.

Yeah, we won't go on it anymore. I mean, you would put it down to that self belief that got you there. We have spoken about that in other podcasts, but we might leave it there. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sticking around after the ride.

Sounds great.

Good to see you. I'm looking forward to seeing more future wins and that's it for us for this episode. Anything else you'd like to say?

No, that's great. Thanks Joe so much for giving us your time and your insight to you how you thought it all went and panned out and yeah, it's a, it's a really there's one thing that we always talked about. The drive home from any time that you've done well is kind of like the sweetest time, I reckon. And we followed each other home from Adelaide and it was, it was euphoria. It's the worst drive ever. But it was. Yeah, it was so good. Yeah. So, yeah, I always, look, I won't go on, but Jason Eardley had gone from D Grade Criterion Racing to A grade and then won his first Casey Fields A Grade Masters race. And I was ringing him on his drive home and the joy that was coming over the phone was, I just fucking won my first race and then he won three. And then I said, oh, I'm just doing the victory drive home call here to you, Jason. He goes, yeah, it's so sweet, isn't it, that drive home winning today. I was thinking about that as well. Can't wait to talk to the coach and have another chat about the victory drive home. So the funny parts, it's all good. So thanks, Joe, for your time.

Thank you.

Awesome. Thanks very much for listening. I really enjoyed that story. We're going to try and do more of them. We might get Rossi on to talk about his experience of winning twice in a row and the stuff you said about coming to the Nationals last year. And we'll keep doing the podcasts on what people like to hear. And a lot of people like to hear how to improve and how to get the best out of themselves. That's what we're all about at Trivelo coaching. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.