AFL Captain Reacts to Pro-Cycling.. with Max Gawn

Max Gorn, welcome to the TriVelo Coaching Get Fast podcast. Thank you very much for joining us.

Thank you for having me. Exciting to be on. We've been talking for a couple of weeks, but we, um, we thought let's get the Ardennes done, let's get a bit more news to talk about. And, um, yeah, here we are.

That's exactly it. Now before we jump right into it, we want to set the scene here of who you are in the Australian sporting landscape, because half our audience is international, overseas. So we have US audience, UK, Europe. And Max Gawn here is, uh, in the highest competitive league of, of any sport in Australia, the AFL. You've played 254 professional games, captained 114 of those games, an incredible feat for one of the most historic clubs in the competition. Premiership captain in 2021, led the Demons to their first flag in 57 years, and you guys put in a clinic in that grand final. 8-time All-Australian, one of the best players in the comp, and you're having a stellar season so far as leader again this year. For those listening, you stand at 209 centimeters, 6 foot 10 approximately. And mostly, Gorni, you're a player and a person that has a lot of stature and experience in the sport at the highest level. And we just love that you're translating that into the cycling passion in the whole country and sporting community here. And always has huge respect for your opinions and what you have to say. And so we love that you're starting to use that platform to start posting about cycling and On that note, we want to dive into it, and I want to start by asking you, you know, how did you go from— this is a great story— a young 18-year-old entering the club at Melbourne smoking cigarettes on the way to training to now being a huge cycling fan and turning into a big aerobic fitness engine?

Yeah, thanks for the intro, Jordy. I was— I think I was the tallest cycling fan until LeBron James just did a shout out. A couple of days ago and robbed me of that feat. No, I loved cycling as a young kid. Was a massive fan of chucking on SBS at 10:00 PM at night and watching the Tour de France. Can get dangerous chucking SBS on at 10:00 PM at night, but when the cycling season's on, it's a little bit safer. And fell in love with Phil Liggett and he's the voice of an angel and put me to sleep more times than my parents did. Um, so that's where I started to love it, and that's in and around Cadel. Um, uh, Cadel was 2012, so probably the early days of Cadel, a little bit of Contador, Schleck's back end of Armstrong, um, SkyTrain just getting going. So the Tour was, was, was heating up, so it was actually quite a, a fun thing to watch and find that love for the sport. Um, I found the love for the sport first over the activity. So the activity came later. My high school was big on Great Victorian Bike Ride. So once I realized what cycling was, I saw there was a Great Victorian Bike Ride as an option to do. I decided to go down that path. For those that don't know, that's school kids basically do 100K a day for 7 or 8 days and camp in country towns. It's quite a fun ride. There's more than just school kids. We're probably the annoying people, actually, the school kids. There's lots of other groups that do it. And that's where I found the love and the passion for working hard on a bike and what you can get out of a bike. But yeah, the sport definitely came first. I was very interested in what was on my TV and then had a professional sporting career next to that. And someone who was injured a fair bit in my first 3 or 4 years, there was a lot of time on the bike, a lot of time on the watt bike doing as many watts as you possibly can while watching the boys train. And then you just it just spirals. You fall more and more in love with chasing watts, um, uh, going out and doing some adventures, uh, and then watching the sport.

Did you have many opportunities in the early days to travel and do some cycling overseas in your off-season period? Or yeah, tell us about how that came about as well.

Yeah, it's sort of coming late, uh, to be fair. I, um, I, apart from those great Victorian bike rides, I sort of then went to football a little bit and focused on football. And as a 21-year-old, you're not really taking your bike on your offseason trips to Vegas. Um, that's a, that's a tougher sell to the rest of the group that you've bought your bike. Um, but in recent times, uh, I've done a mountain bike 6-day race in Saudi Arabia 2 years ago, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Not a mountain biker. I've in fairness, had never been on a mountain bike until a couple of months before that, um, and decided to give it a go. Loved every minute of that. Myself and one of my teammates, Ed Langdon, have rode probably 10 of the most famous climbs around Europe. Um, we took our bike over there one year and just did as many as we can. I've rode Japan, I've rode New Zealand, um, and a few places around Australia. So it's definitely the adventure part of cycling is something that I think is untouched and also that I love. Like, there's so much to do on your bikes. Every country has a story to tell with their bikes.

Have you had much opportunity to explore the great riding in Australia?

Yeah, that's because when I get the option, it's like, oh, go to Saudi Arabia and do a 6-day Saudi Arabian mountain bike, or go to Adelaide. It's like, uh, like, I love Adelaide and there's some, and there's some great riding there, but in my small window, I'm going to pick Saudi Arabia. Yes, but there is some quality riding in Australia, particularly Victoria in the high country. Mount Buffalo. I've done, like I said, I've done a lot of riding around the world. Mount Buffalo is probably my most favorite climb. I can even big ring it sometimes. I had to drop down every now and then, but even I can big ring Mount Buffalo at different points, which makes it a fun climb for me.

It's a tough sport for you to get into given your profession. You're a professional athlete and staying up till 2:00 AM listening to Phil Liggett and what was Mark Sherwin, but now a brand new team with Kenu and everyone. What's your routine there? How do you keep up with it? It's the worst timing of a sport for you to watch. It is.

That's where it's tough to get as many, uh, people on board in the Australian time zone. Um, and, and I get it, yes, you sort of gotta love it. Um, and us three do, so we can't see any other world where we don't. But, uh, for example, the Tour de France, I would, I would watch the break go. Um, so I'd probably stay up to about 9:30, 10 and then sleep till 5. So it's a 7-hour sleep. And then I'd watch, depending on the stage, if I know it's a sprint, I'm probably watching the hour highlights. If I know it's a genuine belter, I'm probably watching the last 2 hours, uh, with no highlights.

Yeah, it's, it's— for those who don't know, if we're on West— East Coast Australia time, the stages will finish at 1, 2 AM, and it's just forever a battle where you just don't want to go to bed, but you have to because you've still got the next day to get to. And I'm lucky now, I'm 2 hours behind, so the stages are finishing at 11 PM, which is much more manageable. But much Yeah, exactly.

In fact, that, that time zone is probably the best time zone to watch cycling in the world. Um, we every now and then get a Perth trip to play free all West Coast in the middle of the Tour, and it's like, oh, this is heaven. This is what— this is so good. Because in Europe it's not a great time zone because it's during the working day, and then in Melbourne it's almost also quite bad. Perth is almost perfect.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly what I'm finding. And I guess Sunday night classics, it's probably one of the best days for you after, after a weekend, depending on what day you have your game. But, uh, it's probably the best chance you have of at least watching as long as you can.

Yeah, it's worked out really well. I've watched Strade, Milan-San Remo, Flanders, uh, and tried my best with Liège but fell asleep at the back end, and Paris-Roubaix. So I've watched all the classics including Strade, uh, from start to finish, which has been lucky with Melbourne have played a lot of Sunday games.

And you've, as you said, you mentioned before, you've done a lot of trips around the world and ridden some of the famous climbs. And the Belgian cycling, is that something you're aspiring to go and ride? And have you ridden any cobbles around Flanders and that region?

I feel like I'd be good on cobbles just because everyone that's good is big. So I like to think I'd be comfortable, more comfortable on the cobbles than what I am when I was on Mont Ventoux. Um, which at 110 kilos is an extreme wattage that I was pushing up, uh, that climb. Um, I'm waiting for Belgium. I want to do the cyclocross into ride into the Flanders, uh, Belgian classic seasons all at sort of once. So I think I'm waiting for that one to do the big trip because cyclocross really appeals to me, uh, how the fans can get involved in that, um, and then riding that sort of roads and then also the Belgian road season that starts just after, um, is all something I'd like to package up. So that's, that's post-career.

Yeah, we're just chatting off air about the, the timing of things. You know, the AFL season starts in March, but you're obviously heavy into preseason from, from December, Jan onwards, so it's just unlikely to get there. But, uh, yeah, I guess waiting till post-career is the perfect move, but I imagine you won't be able to get yourself away from some of those regions. What's the plan post-career? What else have you got on the list? The Flanders region, the tour itself? The Vuelta?

Yeah, I've only ticked off one week at the Vuelta, unfortunately, with the way my season goes. So the Giro and the Tour are two things that are heavy interest and obviously massive Australian flavors in both those races. Australians tend to gravitate more to the Grand Tours, so there's more opportunities in that space. So that they're definitely— I've got a young family, so I've got to work out how I involve them on in all these trips and I've got to work at some point. For those listening in the Northern Hemisphere, AFL isn't quite as well paid as the English Premier League or the NFL, so there's still a job for me in the year I finish footy as well.

We're going to preview the Giro later in the episode, but let's kind of get into it and get into the Spring Classics. And yeah, we'll keep chatting to you about your love of cycling and kind of, yeah, what you're loving getting into. But we, yeah, we want to chat about a pretty epic kind of couple of months of racing and starting way back at Strade Bianche. But we've had, you know, Paris-Roubaix was— I feel like every year we're saying Paris-Roubaix is the race of the year and it's the greatest race we've ever seen. I think 2 or 3 years ago, Wout vs. Van Der Poel was shaping up to be the greatest race we'd ever seen until Wout punctured. But every year it's just— it is, we said on our own show a couple of weeks ago, the drama is just unmatched. You just cannot you just, you cannot match it just with everything that's happening. And, and I do love that it's one of the few races where there is just no gentleman's handshake. It's every man for himself. If there's a puncture, you're just spat out the back, as van der Poel found, and, and everyone just motors on. So I guess start with, uh, what was, what's kind of, what was your kind of your highlight of the spring classics? Was it Roubaix for you? Is that the number one taker?

Uh, I have them on par, Paris-Roubaix and Milan-San Remo. I can't I can't split it. I get Milan-San Remo has the first 200 kilometers that is a hard watch. Um, it actually— the action started a little bit earlier this time with Pog crashing. In fact, all of them crashing. Um, I think Pog, Van der Poel, and Van Aert all came down. Um, so the action started a little bit early. I've got them on par. I think Paris-Roubaix was better. Um, but the Pidcock delivering up Milan-San Remo, up the Poggio, was impressive. I think they're ahead of Liège and Flanders and Strade, if you want to put Strade in there as well. Yeah, but I loved seeing Van Aert win, and I'm sure you guys love that as well. He seems to be an incredibly crowd favorite. A famous bridesmaid comes second a lot. To be able to see that and the emotion that poured over his face and mentioning the teammate that had passed away, all in the space of that first 2 minutes, was pretty inspirational.

You've got to understand, Max, our love for the Belgian scene, and in athletics, uh, the Norwegians, and in triathlon, the Norwegians. We've got our little love childs everywhere around the world, which we absolutely are passionate about. And, and having taken tours there for, I think, 6 years, uh, where we've taken a group of Australians just to go and do the classics as a group. And so we really fell in love with cycling. And, and, you know, in Belgium, for those who've actually never been lucky enough to go there, it is one of the all-time places. It's like, if you can imagine your, your, you know, FA Cup in the English Premier League, or the, or the, you know, Super Bowl, Super Bowl, um, and the AFL Grand Final, it, it, you know, Flanders, the Tour of Flanders is their grand final. And, and, you know, there's plenty of other spring, spring classic races around that, but, but, you know, all of Belgium really comes out for that day. And we've been lucky enough to, uh, to witness that, that, uh, on the Quai Raimond in the, in the sponsor's tent. We've taken a few riders there and it's been such a good, a good experience. And, and so, yeah, for us, uh, you know, really seeing, seeing the spring classics, uh, evolve, uh, you know, the way it has and, and And the world seems to rally around two distinct types of riding, is it the Grand Tours and the Spring Classics? Do you see yourself as favoring one over the other, or are you just a Grand Tour follower? Or yeah, tell us a bit about your way you're thinking about the way cycling evolves.

Uh, I think just being Australian, the Grand Tours is what we get born into. Um, so everything I'm learning now about the Classics is making it so much more fun. Surprising that you two boys were in the VIP tents at the Quartermile. I thought you would've been out there with the fans.

I wanted to bring this up. I'll let you finish and I'll tell you after what it's like.

We've been both, don't worry. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. I think the fact that the GC boys are making their way over to the Classics is telling that story for yourself. I think the fact that Paul is undecided if he's going to the Tour, but he's doing Liège and Strade Bianche, Like, I think that shows where the preferences are. Like, these one-day racing is untapped. It's— the crowds are crazy. A lot of these places do circuits. Well, Flanders does and Liège does, or Liège doesn't. No, no, Liège doesn't. So just Flanders as a circuit, it adds that environment that rarely happens in Grand Tours. It's usually point A to point B. So that's a cool crowd environment that is involved there. That's the one thing that's actually amazing about Paris-Roubaix is every segment is packed and they only go on at once. I find that a cool thing about Paris-Roubaix. It stands alone in that space. So I think I'm— to answer your question, I'm gravitating to the classics. But right now we are in classic season, and I guarantee you when we're middle rest day of the Tour, we'll be like, the Tour is unmatched.

So I know on your podcast you, uh, you spoke about the Quaramont and you were wondering about the VIP tents and, and, um, and what it was like. And, and yes, we paid for the, the VIP tents, and we can say it was absolutely worth it because It's this big kind of festival atmosphere. They've got these big screens inside the tent, so everyone's watching the race together, and the Belgians are just getting on it like it is a national holiday for them. And then when the riders are coming, everyone runs outside to the barricades and just goes ballistic for the riders coming up, and you get to cheer them 3 times around, and then you go back inside and watch the screen. And every year, anytime Wout would get a half a meter gap on someone, the tent would erupt. You know, it's just like he gets 2 seconds on someone because someone just was getting a drink or something, that the tent would erupt as if he's about to break away. And so for him to have so many seconds and so much heartbreak, uh, the footage of the Belgian fans around the world seeing that Paris-Roubaix victory was something sweet. But now we're just praying for the day that he hopefully can get a Flanders win.

You've been on the finish line, on the velodrome for the finish of Paris-Roubaix. Does it seem more French or more Belgian there?

I can tell you the very first time I went there was 2016, and guess who won? Matt Hayman from Australia. That was my very first year that I got, uh, to, to go there, and 3 of us, Dasher and Tim and myself, jumped up, and Tom Boonen had everybody else in the, in the, the, uh, the velodrome expecting him to win, and we were the only ones standing up. It was like being in, you know, an away game at a, you know, Celtic Rangers game, and you're the only, the only 3 supporters there. So it was, it was It was a great experience being in the velodrome and one that we certainly would, you know, we chased the tour. We've done many things. We've stayed at the Ardennes for the whole Tour of Roubaix and we've actually jumped in a car and gone to 5 different locations and chased the race and ended up in the velodrome sprinting for 2 kilometers down the road because you can't park anywhere near the velodrome. Just trying to get there before the riders came into the velodrome. And the last Tour we were there, we made it by like 30 seconds, and I hadn't run for about 25 years. We're all running down the street trying to get to the velodrome. It was a great experience, and I'm sure one that you'll look forward to one day getting to.

When I do go, how would you recommend me watching it?

Paris-Roubaix, we've done where we just stayed at Ardennes Forest— and, uh, sorry, not the Ardennes, Arenberg Forest. And, um, and there's a huge tent at the front and everyone kind of again watches. Uh, it's just a big screen, it's just open, it's kind of free, free-for-all. Um, everyone parks within the vicinity and walks down and there's a great atmosphere. And then as they're coming towards it, you start lining the actual forest so you can walk down as far as you want. Um, and that's a pretty cool experience just to be there all day, wait for them to come through, and it's— it is pure carnage. Then the TV just can't capture it, you know, you just— there's just stuff going everywhere. And then you go back and watch the screen, but as Dad said we actually got a local guy with a bus to drive us around, and he would fang it between sections. You'd get out and watch them, and then he'd cut across fields and then go to another section. And you can get kind of probably 3 sections, but you have to leg it back to the velodrome. And to your question before, you know, the crowd does seem very Flemish, you know, very Belgian. We saw Philippe Gilbert win, and that felt like a winning home crowd, you know. But I don't know, I haven't seen a French kind of favorite, be close to the end, so I wouldn't know that difference. But it's so close to the border that it's basically, it feels like a Flemish race anyway.

Yeah, so Van Aert won a home race.

Yes, yes, that's exactly it. So yeah, he's ticked that off and yeah, I think that opens him up a little bit this year. It kind of takes the pressure off. He's riding so well. We just, we didn't want to get caught in the trap of, I thought he was riding those minor races leading into Flanders um, unbelievably he got, he got pipped on the line by Ghana, which was just so devastating. Unbelievable attack from Ghana, but, um, that, that power. But he got pipped there. He was looking good for Flanders, but Pogačar's just too good. So I felt like this Roubaix win was coming, but we say that every year with Wout, and, and then something has, has gotten in his way. But, um, but I think that shows the form he's in— exceptional. Um, and then I wonder how Visma are going to use him this year. Because we keep saying just let him, let him win his own races. Stop using him as, as, you know, as just a domestic for Jonas, which he's been unbelievable at, at the Tour. But, but he's that talented, like, let him get the victories that Van Der Poel has gotten and let him just focus on that. But I think with this monkey off his back, yeah, I wonder what do you reckon how he's going to play out the rest of the year?

Uh, I feel like you guys might know this better. I feel like he's got enough time to lose a little bit of weight pre-Grand Tours now and get into climbing shape. I think what adds to the Van Aert story, and to be fair, Van Der Poel is doing this now as well with his leadouts for Philipsen, is the teammate that Van Aert is. And still the best stage of cycling I've ever watched is last year when he got Simon Yates to win over Del Toro at the Giro. Is one of the more phenomenal efforts, and that's why we love him. That's why he goes to Paris-Roubaix and he has the crowd because we saw what he did for Simon Yates in that Del Toro race.

Mhm.

Um, so I'm all for it. I find it the best thing. So you got Van Der Poel that has a whole team based on him, and it's his team. He does whatever he wants. Maybe Philipsen's in there now, but it's basically Van Der Poel's team. Then you got Van Aert, who's with a big team, and there's bigger fish to fry. They don't care as much about the classics as they do the Tour, and Van Aert has to do both. And I just love that. I love the fact that he's there. Um, They unsure about how they're going this year. Visma without Vingegaard and Van Aert, there's not much else there. Jorgensen's unfortunately at the crash before the Ardennes was horrific. But it's going to be on Van Aert to help Vingegaard win the Tour de France. That's how I see it.

He's got some history though. He won the Ventoux, he won the time trial, and he won the Champs-Élysées in one year. It's not like he doesn't have the pedigree to do those— what you're saying, George, uh, winning, you know, some, some stages. But he's also helped teammates day after day after day, which— he's a sacrificial lamb himself, but he still manages. That year that he won those 3 stages, that was, that was one of my highlights of, uh, of, you know, a rider who's not suited for this, this actual event actually. Imagine A guy winning Champs-Élysées and winning Ventoux and then the time trial. Did you remember that, Max? That was outstanding.

He's got that— everyone's talking about Pog, and to be fair, Pog is the greatest cyclist that we've seen. He can't do that. Van Aert's the only person who can win a bunch, can win Ventoux, can win a teammate a yellow jersey, and win Paris-Roubaix. There's not many people that can do that.

And I think everyone forgets, you know, because he's had all these 2nd, 3rd, 4th places, he— you just look back on his career stats and you think, ah, he just wasn't as good as Van Der Poel. It's just not true. He just has been so unlucky with some pretty major setbacks because I can't remember if it was the year that Jonas won in 2022 or 2023, but Van Aert was unstoppable. You know, he was in that rivalry. It was a serious, you know, that Van Der Poel vs. Van Aert rivalry. He he broke away from the peloton. Basically, there's that famous celebration where he's doing the eagle coming down the straight with the peloton coming behind him. And in that era, he was just— he was the best rider in the peloton. And then across those years, he won so many stages. And so if we're seeing glimpses of that form, I am so excited for him to ride the Tour again because, as you just said, Gorni, he's the only rider in the peloton capable of that versatile range.

Yeah, I I'm fearful that Van Der Poel's gapped him, but Paris-Roubaix's made me feel like potentially it's back. Yeah. The cyclocross is almost unfair now. It seems like Van Der Poel has eclipsed that version of Van Aert. And then on the road, just so much bridesmaid stuff from Van Aert has made me feel like he's eclipsed that as well. Van Aert will probably still win a bunch, I dare say, if they both raced in a bunch sprint, but everything else was leaning towards MBDP. So, yes. Wouldn't it be great if this is the year that Van Aert just turns everything over?

Yes, to be fair, look, Mathieu van der Poel had some unlucky things happen at Paris-Roubaix, which— so we'll never know, will we, whether— if had Pogacar, Van Aert, and van der Poel been dueling it out, would have been an unbelievable finish. And I think we were robbed of that. And, you know, van der Poel's in great form, and what he does in the cyclocross is just unrivaled. Uh, he won— what did he win, 14 races in a row, I think? Um, yeah, he's just— and he's won a world title. And you know, we love Wout, but he's never done that. And, uh, Van der Poel's got a lot of scores on the board. And it is a great rivalry. They've got— they've raced each other since they were kids. And, uh, it's sort of tos and fros, doesn't it? One minute you think Van Aert's got the edge, and— but yeah, they're just great competitors, aren't they? And they're really likable people to follow, I feel.

Yeah, there's not, um, the— no one wants a competitor just to retire, but the best thing for Van Aert is Van Der Poel wants to win a mountain bike world champ, which is, um, one of his bucket list items, which is good news for Van Aert because it might take him away from, uh, the competition for a little bit.

Is he talking about Olympic Games? Did I, did I hear or read that somewhere?

Yeah, he wants to win something on— he wants to win something on the mountain bike.

Yeah, interesting. The big question and the big topic of, of the entire Spring Classics, and, and as we move out of them into the Grand Tours, is, is how dominant is POG and how beatable is he? And there was just this notion, especially after Strade Bianche, when he attacks from 160k to go, or whatever it is. Every year it's getting further and further. Soon it's going to be the start of the race he's going to attack from. But everyone's going, he's untouchable. But, but I really disagree with that sentiment, you know. And he said it himself after Milan-San Remo. He said these these races aren't easy to win. He won by photo finish against Pidcock, you know, and everyone says he's the dominant, untouchable one. He's remarkable for sure, but I don't like this narrative that he's unbeatable. He shows in races that absolutely suit him, like Liège and Flanders, that no one can go with those punchy attacks. But we have been sick of that theme this spring classics, and the fact that riders keep making it easy for him and playing into his strengths. So So what's your take on, on, on the elusiveness of him? And, and this whole topic everyone keeps asking is why does everyone keep working for him?

Yeah, he's got, um, I think this— it's a skill in itself that he has everyone on his side. He is not the Chris Froome villain that Chris Froome was. Chris Froome was hated by people in the peloton and people on the road. Pog is— Pog's embraced, and it's I, I love him, and I'm a massive— I'm an Australian, I love an underdog. Um, but I'm drawn to, to Pog, and I think all the riders are as well. And everyone's just so happy, um, when they, when they cross the finish line and he's beaten all these guys again for the 55th time. They're the first to go hug him and congratulate him. And I just— I'm probably from a different sport and a different background where that's not something that I would jump to straight away, to go hug Tadej for beating me in a sprint again.

And asked for his autograph or his sunglasses.

Yeah, correct. Which famously someone— who was that, Palazzari or Pittarello? One of the two.

Yeah, can I have your sunglasses? And Pog gave him his jersey.

Um, so I'm— I am getting— I'm dying. I'm not dying on a hill. It sounds like you guys are with me, but I just don't get why the boys club all happily ride together and get Pog to the finish line. Even with Liège, I know there was a 4-minute gap and things were getting worried, but Decathlon went and took the the front for a tiny bit. It's like, I trust me, UAE will have Pog somewhere near the finish line. You don't try and waste Sivakov so Sivakov doesn't do that amazing pull that he did. Um, everyone just doesn't— it's maybe it's tactically UAE are just so much stronger and everyone holds their nerve really well. But, um, yeah, I, I think it's harsh on Pog to say he's not actually skillfully winning these races as well. Milan-San Remo is an incredible win against a guy who's supposed to be sprinter than him, uh, faster than him in a, in a two-up sprint.

It's interesting, uh, my wife is asking me why I'm yelling at the telly, uh, with all these other teams helping Pog, and she's going, why, why don't the directors— if, if you know what's going on, why aren't they telling him? I said, I don't know, that's what I'm yelling at. And I think, I think it might be that some of the riders think they can't beat him, so hanging out with him for as long as possible might be their ticket to a podium. That's the only thing I can think of. What are your thoughts on, on what's going on with riders actually just helping him?

I reckon there's that, and then I reckon because he's such a good bloke, no one wants to be on the bad side of the press conference. Um, they're all like— the amount that's talked about, about did he ride with him or did he not Pog gets asked that question every time he finishes a race. So I didn't— MVDP pull much there in Flanders, and he says what he says. I don't think anyone wants to be on the bad side of that. They want to keep their rep. Um, the only one I actually feel like— Pidcock's not in the boys club, but we just didn't see it enough. Um, he did a little bit of a pulling at Milan-San Remo, but not much.

I actually didn't mind the way Pidcock rode that one and almost snagged the win. I, I agree with you about that. Um, there is this— there's this whole section, and we— they've come at us in the comments of our podcast a couple of times of the cycling etiquette fans, you know. And, and well, you do it because it's cycling etiquette and it's the way that you, you race races. And MBDP ended up saying that a couple of weeks after Flanders. He said, look, because everyone was coming at him, he's saying, look, we're going to be racing each other for a long time and I want there to be a bit of respect between us. And it is this, it's this fascinating, um, culture in cycling. And, and we get it with our age groups all the time where when you're in a cycling crit race or any road race, guys are yelling at you and there is pressure. And so when you've got the aura of a Tadej Pogačar world champion, there is undoubtedly some pressure, some just some unspoken pressure there to work. And Dad always coaches our guys and just says, do not listen to anything they say. And this is just local Masters Club crit racing, but they will yell at you and tell you to work, and you don't have to do a single thing. You, you, you don't— you make your own choices and what's best for you. You're not, you're not riding for anyone else, but um, when it comes to, for example, uh, sexist, even in the post, in the post-interview, Pogačar is almost smirking. Not, not in a, not in a condescending way, but he's kind of gone, yeah, he pulled through for me and was really strong, and, and I was impressed. But I think he's kind of going— he doesn't, he's not going to say this because he doesn't want to, but he's going, you didn't have to do that, you know, like, and it's just, it's just helping me and just setting me up to get away. Like, it's—

Peter Sagan would be rolling around, uh, not, not, not, not his grave. He's still, he's still with us, Peter. But, um, he, uh, I just could picture so many times he'd gotten a little 5-man break in a Tour de France stage and all 4 of them just pull up stumps, um, and don't, and don't ride. Um, it's just changed. Yeah, Valverde is the exact same. It's just changed a little bit. Um, It doesn't keep me up at night, but it, it sort of annoys me a little bit.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the Grand Tours. And because we know Visma won't do it, they're the only team that will definitely not do it. But, um, yeah, sexist, Dad. Yeah, exact, exact same thing. I mean, you just go, he's excited, ever— there's so much hype before the race. Remco's saying he's not going to be there in the back hour, and, and there he is. So yeah, get I mean, how much of that was a lack of director, um, communication? How much do you think is them telling him to go for it? How much is that him as a 19-year-old, uh, just, just getting excited and going, here I am, I'm announcing myself to the world, I'm, I'm showing what I'm capable of?

Yeah, I don't know, Jordan. I think Max has got a few good points there. I really think, you know, as a 19-year-old, you're just in love with racing and, and you want to race and you want to you know, you, you've got no fear. You don't have the experience of being hammered time after time like a lot of the other riders do. And, and it's a big learning curve for him, isn't it? And I think the directors were backing him, you know, do, do what, do what you want. Which is, you know, in hindsight it's easy for us to sit here in the armchairs and criticize them, but, you know, so many people have tried to do that and failed badly, failed miserably by helping him. And it's almost like they might as well be wearing a UAE jersey and they're domestiques for him because they always help, you know. Even Vanderpoel did the same thing, you know, at Flanders. And, and we could just go back across many events where I'm yelling at the telly, why are you working? And, and, you know, it just go— you know, if you— the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Well, that's what we're seeing a lot of the time, and that to me is a little bit frustrating. And even at Liège-Bastogne-Liège, where La Redoute, they, they attack. That's where he first attacked. And, and I've been saying this for about as long as I can remember watching the race. When Pogačar is so dominant, why would the rest of the group go into the red zone to try and keep up with him when he only gets 25 seconds lead by the top of the hill? If the others just stayed out of the red zone and then rode together and not ride like they are, that— and leave him out there, leave him out there for 40 and all of you guys work together. That would be a logical thing, but getting that to happen when you've got so many directors with egos and teams with egos, it's never going to happen. So, so I don't know what the answer is, but they need to try something different. And, uh, Paul Saxos is, is not going to beat him doing that at this stage. He may well develop into a clone of Pog who's just as good, and that would be great to see, but at the moment, that was a really bad tactic But hats off to him for actually having a crack.

I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought he was as good as Pog. Now, next time it's insanity if he does it, but this time it was his first time up, 259 kilometers at the back end of Liège. He thought he was as good as Pog, albeit. Now, what he does at— where's the next one going to be? Let's say Lombardi. What he does at Lombardi up the Casaleo outside of Como. What he does there is more of a talking point, and he's got more time between now and then because it's the end of the season.

But, but he didn't learn much from Strada because he tried to go with him at Strada and got popped straight away like the rest of the field did. So I think he's, uh, got his ambition and ability confused at the moment.

Just remember, Stradi was a week after he lost to Ayuso, and I don't think we even have Ayuso in this conversation. So I'm not sure if his legs were quite there at Stradi.

True.

We have no official word yet if he's going to do the Tour. It seems like a lot of the noise wants him to do it despite the age and inexperience. Is there any word on— he definitely wouldn't do the Giro, but is there any word on if it's not the Tour, he'll do the Vuelta? Or do we know? Do we have any news? Or they're just keeping it pretty quiet for now?

Yeah, from what I'm getting, I think they're keeping it pretty quiet and they're just going to— not Remco quiet, doing training rides in December and not telling anybody, but relatively quiet, which I kind of like. I feel like he's going to pop up at all the big races. I feel like, um, obviously the last monument, there'll definitely be a Grand Tour in there. Um, you'll probably be starting to look towards Canada, um, with, with Worlds there as well. He'll probably be looking at majority of the big races.

Yeah, he's probably more suited, isn't he, to the one-day stage stuff, I think, at the moment, until he develops. He's only 19, so you know what. And depends on which team he's in. Is he going to stay with Decathlon? That would be a question What are your thoughts on that? Do you think he should leave?

Uh, I sure hope so, that he, um, stays at Decathlon. I think a 19-year-old French rider is great for cycling. They've been, they've been trying to manufacture this with David Goddou, with Lenny Martinez. They've been pumping up the tires, Thibaut Pinot to an extent, of young French riders and putting way too much pressure on them, and then they fall into a hole. Lenny Martinez could actually still win a Grand Tour, I think, but there's been a lot of pressure on these guys. That's what they want and what they need. If we get a French that's holding the yellow jersey legitimately, not Tommy Voeckler style, like legitimately holding the yellow jersey and a chance to win the Tour de France, it's— it is massive. So I hope Decathlon keep him. I hope he's on a French team, um, even anyone. If he, if he does go away from Decathlon, if it's any other team, just someone that's not UAE.

That's exactly right.

Who won that year that Vauclair had it for the last day or two?

I actually forget. Must have been Sky.

I don't know, I can't— the images of his face, construed face, has never— is in, in— I can't— in my brain. It's, uh, it seems to be that the action of a lot of French guys, um, you know, when they're struggling, they show their true feelings, don't they? Well, at least Saxos has got the blank face, although he did have the head wobble. His head went down, he was chewing the stem a bit there when he was getting dropped. But it would be great for cycling, not only just for the, you know, for the French to have a Frenchman vying for the podium, but for cycling in general to have someone who looks like he's going to be just as good as the Pog. And that's exciting, I think.

Yeah, I think the Van Aert winning on the velodrome just outside of Belgium, that's a pretty iconic moment. But Thibaut Pinot riding in that break like in the middle of the Alps in a French— in a Tour de France stage. That's almost more iconic in my brain. I feel like the French get behind their French, um, so incredible. They do have a couple of good ones coming. Actually, I'm not sure what Quick-Step are doing at the Tour, but if Magnier goes, they might have some genuine results in the Tour with Magnier winning the sprints and then Sexius potentially winning the yellow.

Yeah, and in all this conversation, everyone's And again, this is the Pogačar, you know, dominance kind of conversation, but everyone's forgetting how good Vingegaard is, you know, and he came back last year off little training, so he can absolutely challenge Pogačar, you know, when he's in form. And we're hoping that the Giro, like a lot of the riders are showing, they can actually do the double and it doesn't tire them out. But let's not forget, let's not just put him to the side. He absolutely is he is much more of a favorite to beat Pogačar than Seixas in my eyes at the Tour.

Correct. And he's not in the boys club. Uh, we saw that. Where did Remco want to attack on a, on a sprint stage? Is that in Catalunya?

Yeah, he wouldn't roll.

And he fell as well. Wouldn't roll. He's not in the boys club, Jonas. He is cold as ice.

Patrick, uh, Patrick from L'Antenne Rouge, who works for, um, Visma, uh, said it's probably one of the biggest misconceptions of Jonas that he is not a racer. He said that internally he is— he just wants to win everything. And so he— yeah, he's not in the boys club. He is there for himself. There is not one part of him that would roll for Pogačar if he thought it wasn't in the best interest of him winning the stage.

I think, I think that's what we're— that's what we're trying to say with, uh, with the way the races are going, where Pogačar is going to win most races if, if people don't change their tactics. And, and that boys club of, you know, I need to roll a turn because that's the etiquette If you keep doing that, it won't change any results. And if you're happy to come second, then fine, keep, keep, keep racing the way you are, because that's all that's going to happen. It's going to be Pog getting another 6, you know, Monuments to be the greatest Monument winner of all time. And he'll just keep doing that. And that's going to be the frustrating part for me, is if I, I would almost start to think, if they're going to keep doing this, it's, it's unwatchable.

I want to ask you about some of your own cycling training at the moment, and we'll finish off with a bit of a Giro preview. But before we move on from the Spring Classics, I do want to touch on probably a more dominant rider across the men's and women's side, and that's Demi Vollering. She made the switch to FDJ, and it's proven to be, I think, the greatest thing for her career. She won 2 out of the 3 Ardennes on the Tour of Flanders. This, you know, she could just continue to go from here, and I think she could have more of a dominance than Pogačar. She's got a better team around her now. I think she's proving that with the shackles off and with the supportive team, she could be pretty unstoppable the next few years.

Yeah, it's sort of untouched a little bit, this with Demi, how well this year had— has, has gone and how incredible the victories were. I think in a league, in a league of her own currently. Is she— is she European, European champion?

Yes.

Yes.

She's got some— she has some sort of cool, cool, cool jersey. Um, yeah, I, I mean, all white. I actually really love the European jersey. It famously reminds me of Giacomo Nizzolo. Um, I don't know when that was and when he won it, but, um, it does remind me of Nizzolo. Uh, yeah, it, it, the one, the one thing I really enjoyed was Paris-Roubaix, the way they raced both races, both on the same day. Um, I know in retrospective years it's always been one day before and there's been a whole carnival about it. And I presume when you raced your race, Jordy, that was the same day as the girls, maybe the Gran Fondo?

Correct.

I don't mind it as a spectator having that on the same day now, and I think that's a way races can go forward. I know Demi wasn't at Pararibays, so I don't know why I've gone down that path, but I feel like that's a good element for the men's and females' races to survive.

Depends on the timing. I think, I don't know, when we were there, we found that the separate days were actually better viewing. Because you got to watch the full races. But if the timing is right and you get to see enough coverage of both, then one leading into the other can be really good. I think Flanders, the timing was a little bit better because when they cut to the coverage, it was, you know, the circuit was just starting. And so you were getting more of the actual coverage of the exciting parts of the race. And for some of these classics, you actually want to watch the whole race, both men's and women's, except for probably Milan-San Remo. It's like it's on from the start, especially Roubaix. Yeah, I don't know, we'll see how it plays out. I hope they keep experimenting to get the right viewing. But yeah, I found the women's racing to be much more exciting than the men's in terms of the range of athletes and cyclists that can win. And so given that, look, Demi Vollering, you know, despite a wide range of cyclists that can win her dominant fashion. This spring Classics has just been awesome to watch. And I think she could have a great year and potentially have a pretty historic year in terms of women's cycling as it's in its most competitive year in history, I think.

Yeah, I think women's cycling is going big at the moment. And the main point in that is Paris. I want to go back to Paris-Roubaix, but that finish, I mean, Visma had it all their way with Van Aert. but then going 2 up in a 3-girl finish. It was great to watch. You're right, women's cycling has got that appeal to it.

Yeah, and I mean, the best quote to come to prove that was Anna van der Breggen, who was the most dominant cyclist from 2014 to 2020, retired, was coaching Vollering, has come back into the peloton and said, well, you know, the standard is so much higher than when I left. I thought I could just kind of waltz back in here and and do pretty well. And she said, you know, I used to be able to just sit at the back, wait for the hard sections, ride to the front of the peloton, ride off. She goes, you cannot do that anymore. You know, you, you, positioning is everything. So it's in a real good spot. Just want to touch on your own cycling. So, so, I love your, your little, your previews on the way to training. So you're commuting to and from training most days, is that? And, and, and get your previews in and nailing a lot of the previews. Yeah, what's your cycling throughout the week? What can you fit in?

Melbourne is weirdly going through one of the best autumns I've ever been in, and there's beautiful sunshine every day, so there's no excuse to not be on the bike. I've gotta be careful. I've got a relatively direct correlation between too much bike and doing my hamstring. It's not proven, but there's enough data to show that I've— when I've done— and this is way too much bike, I'm talking um, sort of 300-400K weeks, then I start looking at my hammies are going bad. So commuting to training is fine. Um, so I've got about a 15-kilometer commute to training, um, which I enjoy. It's on Gardiners Creek Yarra Trail for majority of it. Uh, for those that are in Melbourne, it's a beautiful little, uh, particularly on a beautiful autumn's morning to be out there. It can get competitive, the Commuters Cup, Uh, I like to think I just want to sit there at a pretty low heart rate and just make my way into training, but then one person yells out, 'Passing!' And I just go, 'All right, let's give this a go,' um, which is always fun. And it's my terrain, we're talking big ring the whole way, um, there's no real bumps at all, it's nice and flat, bit technical at different points. I sort of like that. And then on the longer breaks, I tend to get out on the bike, um, and actually take the roadie out and do a bit of riding. I just— what day is it? So yesterday I went for a little 70K ride down the Mornington Peninsula, went up Arthur's Seat, went around Cape Shank, which is more— I find worse than Arthur's Seat actually. Cape Shank, they can really test you. And then that was, that was, that was a nice ride.

That's very interesting that in the middle of a football season your club is allowing you to go on a 70K bike ride. It's fantastic.

Um, yep.

Uh, the discussions you're having with, uh, the potential crash being falling off your bike, how are those discussions going? Or you're not really telling them that you're doing it?

Uh, no, one of the, one of the best things that I've, uh, got right now is I'm yet to fall off my bike. Uh, sorry, that's incorrect. I've fallen off my bike in Saudi Arabia when I was trying to ride through sand. Um, but that was at 2 kilometers an hour potentially, so a little bit, uh, less room for injury. But no, I've had a couple of close calls. I've done Cadel's People's Ride a couple of times, and that— the groups can be a little bit inexperienced, and I'd rather just ride at the front the whole time and do all the work than be anywhere in that mess for that reason. Like, I've got lack of trust for the guy behind me purely because there's a whole lot more risk for me to fall off my bike So I stay out of groups. I don't jump on Beach Road too much and get competitive in groups. I sort of just take my bike and travel around. So Morning Peninsula, I was all by myself. There was— the risk of that goes out the window.

Were you just tapping away, Max? Were you, or you're riding off the seat with some, uh, aggression? Or yeah, tell me about how you're managing your, your day. Are you, are you meant to be recovering here, or are you looking for aerobic fitness gains? Yeah.

Yeah, a bit of both. This was 2 days post-game, so it was a bit more of a recovery ride. Um, but Arthur's— at my size, there's no real recovery zone. You're sort of sitting at 170 heart rate no matter what. Um, I felt like I was relaxing, and my time definitely showed that. Um, I, I didn't gear up at any points. There's a point at Arthur's where you can even— some of the— like Richie Porte famously put it in the big ring. I did not do that, I can guarantee you. Um, I sort of just maintained my own pace up there. Wasn't too bad when I got to the top. So that was, uh, yeah, there was the fitness gains was more sitting at 130 heart rate for as long as I can rather than dipping into sort of 150, 160.

You got a power meter on your bike? You riding the power at all or checking out your own power?

I had, uh, but I've just got the new Propel and I haven't got, uh, the power meter, uh, set up to that. So I don't have any numbers for you, uh, what's just gone. I used to be, and this is great because on the road I'm not the body for cycling, but on a Wattbike I am. And we've got some competitive Wattbikers at the football club. And if you don't chuck in power to weight, which is, who cares about power to weight? I sure don't. Some of the numbers I can put up on a Wattbike is pretty special. Still not anywhere near 8 times your body weight like Pog does. Up his attacks. But 8 times my body weight is 1,000 watts. So Pog was sitting at my version of 1,000 watts at Liège-Bastogne-Liège.

Yes. You had a crack at Zwift yet? Any Zwift races?

I did in COVID. I jumped on Zwift, enjoyed it. The only thing that I realized pretty quickly is people either lie about their weight or they're all really, really, really skinny. Because I would jump in maybe a bunch ride that would be 3 watts per kilo, and that was not 3 watts per kilo. Sorry. Like, I was getting dropped before the first sort of 10 kilometers. So again, I just kept to myself and did some solo training on Zwift.

What do the guys at the footy club think about— I know one of your mates, one of your footballing mates, Ed Langdon, is keener as well. What do the young guys think about the two cyclists in the club?

Yeah, it's not— it's certainly not cool yet. I feel like it's a cool sport, but it's hard to get the NBA fans across to cycling. LeBron might help that, but yeah, no, look, my closest friends, I've got sort of 3 or 4 that I'm really close with, and they've all come on to cycling. So I feel like when I've been able to give them enough bullshit talk, like enough chat about cycling— oh my God, you should have seen this Tour de France stage— that they eventually watch it, and then they go, I was like, ah, this is pretty cool. So I've got my close guys, I got Ed and I got the two Jakes, Melksham and Lever. Melksham's actually a really good rider. He's a beach road fiend, he lives in Brighton, so he's on that every day. He loves the MAP gear and he wears full Jaco MAP merch, which is, I'm like, I'm telling Jake, that's kind of like me running around in Melbourne gear at a local park. Like, you can't wear full merch. You can't just wear the exact kit. So if you're looking for someone riding on Beach Road in its full Jayco kit, that is Jake Mulcham.

That's brilliant. You done any group rides? Any Melbourne group rides yet? Enough interest with those boys, or?

Yeah, there is a little bit. We famously did one. We're doing Sorrento to Frankston and back. We were staying at Sorrento for a little camp. Opened the invite to a few too many people. We had some inexperienced riders, uh, and the least experienced rider took down one of our coaches who was our most experienced. So that one, yeah, we struggle to get more than 5 or 6 now, but we've got friends of friends that all love to have a ride. And, um, I think we could all agree that group rides is the passion of cycling and Being able to get out with a group of people and go for a ride certainly is where it's at. Unfortunately, with my injury threat, I do do a few too many solo rides, but group rides certainly are a passion.

During the summer when you're having your off-season, uh, and you're trying to get fit again for the pre-season, are you doing some intervals on the bike outside? Are you really riding aggressively with a little bit of a plan, or is it just, I'm going riding and I'm just going to have fun? I'll ride hard where I want to ride hard. Tell us a little bit about how you, you manage your summer riding.

Yeah, there's a bit of both, to be honest. Um, I find when I'm on my outdoor— when I'm outdoor on my road bike, I like to just ride. Um, I understand interval stuff and I understand why people, um, in particular my fitness coach, would rather me do that. But I just, for some reason, I'm cultured to do that on my indoor bike, on my trainer. Um, so I leave that to that. So when I'm out riding, I ride, I chase hills. So I'd rather take my bike, go for a drive, and find a mountain. I find that so much more interesting, so much more rewarding. Like I said, I'm sitting at 180 heart rate the whole time, no matter what, when I'm climbing. So it's something that I really love. And I find the fitness gains I get from sitting at a higher heart rate for as long as I can. If you're watching footy now, my strength is the back end of games. And I think there's a direct correlation between some of the training I do at that high heart rate for as long as possible. To be able to come into footy as well.

Are there other players seeing that and asking you, you know, you're super, super fit, you know, what are you doing? Surely there must be some chatter in the, in the club rooms about, you know, can you, can you give some advice to the young guys saying, hey guys, get on board with this cycling stuff, it's actually going to help your general fitness for your football match day fitness? Is there any opportunities? Have you— are you trying that that take as a captain of the club?

I am, I am trying. I've— I'm in my run era a little bit as well, and there's a little bit of, uh, longer runs. I'm pushing that rather than the short interval stuff to get yourself exposed to training for 2 hours. That's the big one, is how do you train being at a higher heart rate for longer than 2 hours, which are our games. Um, the only issue with the cycling part is to get the genuine gains, you've sort of got to be on the bike for 4 or 5 hours. Um, there's like the interval stuff for 30 minutes. I see that more of maybe a body conditioning, maybe a little bit of power gains you can get. The gains that I'm getting around that 4-hour mark when I'm taking my bike to the high country and riding Buffalo and Falls at the one time, that's a harder sell to the 19-year-old Gen Z that just wants to get his training over and done with and then go to the beach.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, what you touched on before, you know, if you run too many Ks, that hamstring risk is there. There's inherently any sort of risk with, with doing massive amounts of something new. So you wouldn't want to just jump, get a bunch of the guys just straight onto bikes, but it's lower risk than, than getting them into marathon running or ultra running, which is a huge craze at the moment. So it could only benefit them. I do, I did see footage of a couple of the Giants guys in the off-season jumping on the bike you know, because I couldn't run. And it was, it was just a horrible setup, you know. They were out of position, they're completely flexed, like, and I'm going, who's— someone's got to get in there and tell them how to ride the bike properly. Because you can get huge advantage if you're set up in the right position. You're not going to get injured. But no, no, no one's going to be motivated if you're not a fan of cycling, if you're sitting on those uncomfortable bikes kind of spinning away, just not really getting any benefit of it. You kind of got to get taught by someone like yourself of, hey, here's how to ride properly and here's why it's enjoyable.

Yeah, correct. And we, uh, lucky enough, probably aided to my love for cycling, um, in 2012, 2013, Neil Craig come to the club, um, and brought Charlie Walsh with him. So Charlie Walsh was sort of the— yeah, not, not fun for me. Um, he, uh, he was sort of that off-legs conditioning coach. Obviously the background, for those that don't know, Charlie Walsh is the track— behind the 2000 track cycling team, uh, the Aussies boys. Uh, so they were big on cycling and they got us positioned really well. We had state-of-the-art bikes that were in there, and we were all producing FTPs that were incredible, which was, which was good. We didn't play as well that year, but we were fit. So coaching was probably the issue a bit more, but we were incredibly fit. We had sort of 15 guys be under 10 minutes in a 3K time trial, which I don't think I've seen since. I think you normally just have sort of 5 or 6 under that 10-minute mark. So it certainly, in terms of fitness gains, you can get a lot out of it being properly set up.

How well has it translated to your own running? Are you finding your own running times pretty stable? You're able to keep increasing with the bike fitness?

Yeah, I'm definitely stable and I've definitely increased my ability post an hour. I used to be relatively, uh, 3 or 4K, 5K run and done. Um, and now I'm finding myself with more energy, um, uh, more, more, more ability to push. I find one thing that cycling teaches me is calories and getting calories in. And I honestly think that's the difference between cyclists in nowadays than what 20 years ago is how much food they're actually getting into their, their mouth. And that's a skill in itself. I'm not sure if you've tried to have a gel or a muesli bar at 180 hertz rate. It's incredibly tough. So you've got to actually sort of train that. And that's one thing that's helped me in footy is now I'm, I'm having more gels. I'm having gels in time slots when I didn't normally have it because I've been able to train that ability to have them.

Absolutely brilliant. And for all Melbourne fans, this would be kind of music to their ears just to, you know, you hear how well your fitness is going from a, uh, from an overall body perspective, how you're feeling. And, and given this fitness, are you finding that's helping your longevity? Like, you're, you're feeling pretty good and wanting to keep going?

Yeah, I'm obsessed with longevity. Um, not necessarily just being an AFL footballer. I know that time will come. I'm a contact sport with Gen Z guys running a lot quicker than me, and I, and I know I can't fight Father Time forever. But I'm obsessed with longevity from a point where I'd love to be marathon running and riding the Alps deep into my 50s and 60s. Like, I, I, I'm really keen on that. Um, so I'll continually be looking down paths to improve myself getting that from different sports. I sat in the car, the Jayco car, for a Volta stage about 6 years ago, and I was amazed with like, in footy it's like, oh, you should probably eat, uh, what can your stomach handle? Do you want a mandarin or do you want a banana? Are you feeling sick? Okay, don't have it. Where cycling, it's like, you will have this gel and then you'll have this banana straight away, otherwise you will fall off your bike. So I saw a gap there. It's like, okay, there's this is how the world's working, um, in a completely different sport. So I'll continually take elements from different sports. But, uh, yeah, I'm 30— I'm 34, which is 7th or 8th oldest in the AFL, um, but I don't necessarily feel it. So whatever I'm doing currently is, um, is, is, is, is sort of working.

For all those Melbourne fans, uh, what are your aspirations and how do you feel like the squad's going? Uh, we're only What are we in?

Round 7?

7 weeks. Yeah, we're going pretty well, to be fair, to start the year. For a little backstory, we won the flag in '21, and then '22, '23, we made finals and was still looking like the team we were in '21. We lost our finals, and then '24 and '25, we didn't play finals. Sacked our coach at the back end of last year, and now all of a sudden we're sort of back into the top 4. Very early stages, but We seem to have regrouped a little bit with a new coach, and yeah, it's exciting. I love playing footy. I love, I love being a professional athlete, and it's always a lot easier when you're sitting in the front half of the ladder.

Unbelievable. Well, it's been great insight today, and we're really keen to see how well you can go, especially if you've got that cycling background. We're telling all, all runners, even professional runners, you know, cycling is just such amazing cross-training, and we think professional athletes from all across the world, and especially NFL players, could gain so much from cross-training. On the bike, so you kind of lead the way in that. But yeah, we're keen to see how the rest of the year goes for you, and hopefully many more years to come. And while we want to see you potentially doing some crits and some road races in the Masters around Melbourne, we will happily put that aside to see you keep playing and dominating the league. So yeah, thanks for the insight so far. We just want to finish off, I guess, last kind of picks for the Giro starts next week. Jonas is going for the Giro and Tour de France double. Who else we got? I think with Ayuso out, Yates kind of— Almeida, sorry, not Ayuso. Almeida out, Yates kind of, or del Toro kind of comes in for UAE as kind of a leader. Who's your pick or favorite or smoky for the Giro next week?

Yeah, it's looking like a Jonas clean sweep from afar. I've really enjoyed Ineos's year. I think Ineos are writing a newfound Ineos and we've been cycling fans for years with Team Sky and we hated the British team. Like, Sky and Ineos have been— but now they're becoming likable. The way they ride is quite likable. They attack, and I think Arensman is leading that. I think Arensman is one of the more aggressive GC riders we have, and that combo of Arensman and Bernal rode really well at the Alps. So I don't think it's all Vingegaard. I think there is the Red Bull boys of— who's going from then? Is it Polizari?

Yes, yep, Joe Hindley, I think.

Palazzaro, Rog, maybe. I don't know. Yes, yes, yeah. So there's those boys going. So there is some, um, some people there for Jonas, but I don't think the GC is going to tell the story of the Giro. Um, I'm excited for some other things that are happening, including Unibet. Unibet, I'm not sure if you guys are on this wagon, but behind the scenes vision on YouTube has made fall in love with them. And Dylan Groenewegen's going to this, uh, Giro and he's going to win a couple of stages and it's going to break the internet, which is what I can't wait for.

That would be something, wouldn't it? He's one of the fastest sprinters going around, but boy, he's been there for a long time. Um, it would be turning back father time if he could actually, uh, pull off a stage win. That would be brilliant, especially— he does have it, guys.

Yeah, he does have Jonathan Milan and, and Paul Magnier who are who are pretty tough sprinters to get past. But if I had a tip, I'd probably go Jonas followed by Palazzari, and then let's put Luke Plapp in for third just because he's a Stanley Street Social local.

Yeah, brilliant. That's the best part about the Giro is the up and down nature. It's how the Tour de France used to be. These swings, the intense climbing, the swings that happen, it almost— I mean, if Jonas is not there, it literally is anyone's race. And last year was just absolutely phenomenal. You mentioned that last stage with with Wout van Aert just winning it for Yates, the other Yates that is. And so yeah, anything can happen. It is such an exciting Grand Tour. So yeah, we'll keep watching and if your picks come true, we'll certainly post them.

When we were talking about the boys club and not working for each other, it again took me back to that stage. Do you remember Del Toro was wanting Carapaz to work and Carapaz was like, nah mate, I'm not working.

That's a very good point.

And rightly so. Carapaz is cold-blooded. Carapaz is cold-blooded.

He was willing to give up the Tour just so he didn't take a turn. And that's exactly what happened. He lost the Tour.

Correct. Who did?

Yeah, that was one of the all-time games of chicken, and they both lost pretty badly. And Del Toro lost big. You know, that was— talk about cycling etiquette. Disrespected the pink jersey. So, nah, mate, thank you very much for jumping on and sharing your thoughts. You're an absolute legend of Aussie sport, and we encourage any non-Australians to go look up Max go on highlights on YouTube and you'll put a face to and some highlights to this name and this podcast. And you'll see what we mean by being a real champion of the sport and you'll be a legend of the club for a long time to come. So we're pumped how much you love cycling. So thanks very much for coming on and sharing your passion for it. And yeah, good luck for the rest of the year. Thanks for having me on, lads. Easy. That's it for this episode and we'll see everyone on the next one.