Are Cyclists Better Runners than RUNNERS?! With Jimmy Whelan

Jimmy Whelan, it's been over 3 years since we last had you on the podcast, and it's been a pretty full circle journey from there. Welcome back on.

Yeah, hey guys, nice to be back on the pod. Um, I'm trying to think the last episode I did with you. I think it was, yeah, maybe a year ago. Uh, way more.

Yeah, yeah, a lot longer. Yeah, well, our big conversation with you was, was definitely in, um, 2022 when you were in between contracts and you were in a pretty vulnerable position where you were, um, come out of your AF contract and you really were committed to continuing your career as a cyclist. And, and what a journey it's been on since then. You, since from that moment you had a lot of media backing, which was really helpful for you, and you ended up, um, signing to, uh, to, uh, is it QP36.5? What are they called? What are they called?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Q36.5.

Q36.5. That's right. I should know that. They, they are, they're, they're a world-class team. Yeah. Signed with Q36.5, and went on a year with them. But then after that, called it on cycling for some reasons we'll discuss in this and decided that you're also a world-class runner. You wanted to have a crack at a triathlon career. But very quickly into that, discovered actually you're probably a better runner than even you expected. And so full circle moment, your career is on this trajectory right now to becoming very quickly one of Australia's best endurance runners and, and getting right to the top of that and, and becoming a professional runner. So what a full circle journey of the last 3 years it's been.

Yeah, it's been a bit chaotic, not gonna lie. Um, in a good way. Um, Yeah, it's certainly like, yeah, when we last spoke in 2022, if you had have said, you know, in 3 years' time you'll be living your high school dream, I would have been like, far out. There's things, things, life can change pretty quick. Um, but in, and, and as I said, in, in a good way. Um, and yeah, like the, like the, I was very excited to become a triathlete and gained a lot of interest in my potential in that sport. And yeah, just over the few months of training, I just got faster and faster running. And my swim wasn't improving much. I was getting quicker and quicker with running, and I thought, far out, maybe I can— and I just fell more and more in love with it. And the more in love I got with running, the more I faded out my triathlon ideas. And then I just said to myself, it also combined with the cycling injury with sciatica on the TT bike. So that's an important one to know. Like, I could barely ride my TT bike over 300 watts without my left leg going, yeah, without the power turning off, basically. So, yeah, that kind of shot me down the running route, and then I was, uh, locked in for 12 weeks. And then had this, at the time, a very far-fetched, far-fetched dream to turn pro at Valencia Half Marathon and try and like do a mic drop time and then go pro the next year. And I actually managed to pull it off. Um, like I was talking with one of my mates in, in the European summer, and I said to him, you know, I've got this, got this idea to run the Valencia Half. I'll do a 12-week build. There'll be 4 weeks of it that'll be proper training. The rest will be building up to it. And then, I mean, in theory, if I'm running fast enough, I should just be able to do the time and then go pro. It's like not very complicated. There's not many barriers. And then he was like, yeah, righto, but you could actually do it. So, and then here I am.

Yeah. I know what it's I wanna, I really listened to our episode with you, just, just the crazy nature of the last 3 years. And I went back and listened to the one from 3 years ago and, and on there you spoke about the fact that you kind of fell into cycling cuz you were a really good runner but got injured running when you were 19, started cycling and then quickly realized how talented you were at it. And then that kickstarted your whole career. Uh, and then we were just talking about your running ability on that podcast and I think Dad made the joke and said, geez, you could be a good triathlete someday if you just added the swimming. And I think your exact quote was, well, that's a question I could ask, you know, later in my career. And I think that it just kind of, it's funny that it came up probably quicker than imagined. Um, and then yeah, quickly turned back to running. And I think it's ironic that, uh, you actually got injured on the bike, which is the reason that most people start cycling is they can't run and they get injured running. And so they jump on the bike and you got a bike injury after 10 years of being a professional cyclist, you know, sciatica, which, which pushes you into running more?

I actually, I actually had this problem on and off throughout my career, the sciatic problem.

Okay.

Um, so when I was racing for the Portuguese team, I was basically the GC favorite for the Volta a Portugal, and I was on the, the, on the big clean stage, the big mountain top finish, the finish is 2,000 meters. So I was a minute up the road halfway up the climb, and I was probably gonna win the stage. And then I got this sciatic problem and then just had to do 200 watts and watch the race go past me. Um, so yeah, it's happened on and off and then yeah, just on the TT bike, just given the hip angle, um, aggressive nature of yeah, being aero. Um, yeah, I couldn't handle it. It just triggered it even worse. But, um, like when I broke my, when I had an Achilles problem when I was running through high school, I thought it was the end of the world. Um, it's kind of a similar thing where it like opens new doors. Um, and yeah, like now, now I'm running, like I've never been happier, to be honest. It's created like freedom. Um, like I'm not training as much, which is kind of nice. Uh, you know, I was doing 200K weeks recently, but it's only 14 hours of work. So, um, yeah, half time of training, half, half time of cycling and like 30% of all logistics of being a triathlete.

Um, so like, so you're not, you're not, you're not missing any of those 6-hour rides 3 days in a row, have a rest day, then another 3 days of 6 hours?

No, I do, I do miss, I do miss the riding, you know. I miss the long rides where you just solo, you're out in the middle of nowhere. Like, I miss those moments, that's for sure. Just going out on the bike, the weather's good, and yeah, like, just listening to house music on a highway at 160 beats. Why not? But you have to be fit to do that. Um, but yeah, this, this running, this running stuff, it's like, it's, uh, it's really exciting. And, um, yeah, also combine that with just the fact that, um, I don't know how fast I could be. Um, and the build that I did for the Valencia Half, it's definitely not anything fancy and I can run a lot faster. Um, and I think also I'm, I'm more suited to the marathon than the half marathon. So, um, yeah, I've just gotta be, yeah, quite strategic and careful with how I prepare for my next, well, hopefully a debut marathon next year and hopefully I can, uh, yeah. See what I'm capable of.

So yeah, the, the key to this story and the tipping point is, is what you did at Valencia, and we'll touch on that. And I really want to explore the block leading into that, um, but I just want to take it back one step and go, you know, you, you first uploaded, um, one of your first vlogs doing, I think it was like 6x1K or 8x1K in Barcelona. It was, and you just had this brilliant side-on footage, um, from whoever had helped you take that. I remember looking at that and it was the first footage I'd seen of you running and running properly, and I just thought, wow, that is one of the best running styles I've seen in a while, you know, like smooth stride. I was just gobsmacked at how you could have that stride pattern and, and be running that well so quickly, um, after such a big career in cycling. So what was that process like getting back into running, and then what— how do you think you were just able to get get back into running and run so well so quickly and handle running and get back into that form, handle the load, you know, what was that change like?

Yeah, I mean, through my pro cycling career, I was— I tried to run like once a week or like once every 2 weeks with like maybe like a 10K jog on my easy day. Um, like I always found when I felt a bit off on the bike or stiff or lower back problem, if I went for a jog, it would fix things. Um, and that, and at the end of that jog, I'll do like 5 by 100-meter strides, uh, to really like open, open the gate a bit. And yeah, just move in a way that the body's meant to.

There it is. Yeah. Yep.

But I, I kind of kept that, um, I don't know what that, like that pattern going, like, so, and that's that the load's not significant, but like just that muscle memory of running.

Yes.

Um, and I also ran all the way through, like, yeah, until I was 20. So, like, when I was growing, my body was adjusting to me being a runner, I guess. Um, and yeah, I don't know what it is. Like, I, I, a lot of people have asked me, how, how, how on earth do you run so efficiently after being curled over a bike for 8 years? Um, It doesn't really make sense. And even just the, the like tendons and everything being so elastic, like when I hit the ground, everything bounces back up. Like you look at most cyclists when they run, it's, um, they have this Ferrari engine, but they don't bounce much. Um, even if they're really light, it's kind of like, yeah, I don't know why that, why that is, but I guess, um, yeah, uh, genetics, I guess. Yeah.

Well, it's almost like you've got, uh, a body of a 19, 20, 21, 22-year-old because you stopped running at that age and you haven't really worn down your body from the impact of running over the last— how old are you now, Jimmy? 29.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you've had that period of really no impact and your body's really quite been protected from the, you know, riding a bike where, where you're not getting the pounding. So it's, you've probably still got a runner's body of a, a a real, you know, a late teenager, which is probably the reason why your elasticity's so incredible. Um, that might, must play a role in, uh, the, you know, your ability to, to just jump into a runner. And you've, as you said, you always grew up running anyway, so you had the, you had the technique, you know, it's an inbuilt thing, isn't it? When you start running as a little kid, that's your style and, and you follow that through.

Yeah. Yes. It's interesting. Like, um, It's also like since I stopped running, uh, since I stopped cycling and then running more and more, it, I have been getting more and more efficient at these speeds. Um, and that's been quite satisfying. And I, I really noticed that when I run on the treadmill too. Um, like you can really feel, you can really feel how your body's touching the ground when you're on the treadmill. And, um, yeah, and like curious to see how much more efficient I am after a full year of running. Um, cuz also with like the triathlon training with the swimming and the cycling, like it doesn't create the most efficient body for running. It still creates a very good engine.

Yes.

Uh, but when you just do running, you can really dial everything in. Um, and yeah, in my case, like I'm just, the amount of energy it costs me to run like 240, uh, 250K pace or 3-minute K pace is um, compared to the average, uh, person. It's like, yeah, it's, uh, it kind of makes sense as to why I was able to run fast in Valencia.

It's so interesting to hear that, um, that you just kept that running going over that long period. I would not underestimate the value of those strides you did for so long. We know that I've done studies on this, you know, and a lot of professional sports teams now, whether it's football teams or rugby or Soccer Around the World, that, um, one of the keys that they put it down to, to preventing long-term injuries or soft tissue injuries, is that repetitive stride nature. And just make sure they're keeping that up constantly. And even to the point now, when, when players, um, tear a hamstring, they get them back doing strides as soon as possible. You know, it's no longer 2 weeks of rest, ice, compression. You know, the new protocol is get their bodies back as striding. And they just know that that repeated movement creates such robustness for the, for the players. And so there must be something to that that you kept up, you know, that stride work over the 8 years. That might not be only it, it might be a combination of genetics. You have, yeah, a very economical pattern when you look at you, so that's, it's pretty incredible. But there would be something to that, I think.

Yeah, 100%. Um, and I, I would also do, uh, like, uh, recently I've been doing a lot of hill, hill strides too. Mm-hmm. So like really stressing the body mechanically just to turn on all the lazy muscles. So I've been doing that once a week and that's really helped me. Like, after those hill workouts, I always— the next day I always feel like I'm covering the ground really nicely. Yeah.

That's our specialty. That's our go-to. So let's go into it. You know, we just love the hill repeats. You said that you really dialed in kind of like a 12-week block. Once you picked Valencia, you said, alright, I'm going to go for this. Running's going well, let's just see what I can get. How was that 12 weeks broken up? How did the volume look? You just mentioned that you've built up to 200K weeks, which is freaking— um, to me, that is just wild that you can handle that. You know, that is unbelievable. I know that you could handle it aerobically, no doubt. I know, like, in terms of the training load, I just, I just can't comprehend that your musculoskeletal system can, can handle that load already. So talk us through that progression and what happened over the 12 weeks.

Yeah, well, bit of context before that, like I stopped triathlon training in, uh, April, like May, kind of. Um, just when I was having this sciatic problem and, um, yeah, I wasn't seeing the progression in the pool that I wanted to see. I then just took some time off. I actually took 3 weeks completely off, uh, off everything. Um, just to let the brain reset and work out what I wanted to do. Um, And then, yeah, then I started building up very slowly, jogging over June, July, and then in August, September, October, that's when I started the 12-week build, um, where like the weeks were the same. So classic Australian, like Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. Um, and then building up the volume each week. Like first, first weeks were around 120K and then building it up to eventually the last 4 weeks were around 190K, one, was over 200. And by the end of the block, I was running twice a day. And basically the intensity of my sessions were like 20, 20 to 30% bigger. And the duration of the intensity was, yeah, 20% bigger than the start of the block. So Tuesdays would be classic K reps, not like, or, or sometimes I was on the track. doing, yeah, some 400 works, like fast stuff. Um, and then, uh, yeah, Thursday was normally threshold work on the treadmill. Um, and key part of the treadmill was I was able to do some pretty big treadmill workouts, uh, without— like, I'd always pull up better, uh, on the treadmill than if I was to do it outside. Um, so I knew I could really— I could really squeeze the engine a bit. On the treadmill, also with the heat stress too. The gym in Barcelona was really quite hot and humid. Um, so I got some free heat gains from that workout as well. Uh, and then, yeah, Saturday was hills. So I'd do like 6 or 7 hills that were around 3 minutes long. Um, and the hills would be like a bit above threshold, and then over the top of the hill in the last 100 meters, I'd really try and get going. and then just drop back down recovery. Um, and that session was, wasn't a full-on session, but, um, yeah. And then Sunday long run. My Sunday long run would be, uh, the length and intensity of it would determine on how I felt that morning, essentially. Um, I didn't want to be crawling out of bed on Monday morning trying to put another week's training together if I absolutely squeezed myself the day before and I wasn't ready for it. So finessing it a little bit every, every Sunday. Um, and yeah, that was more or less, uh, the build. There was, by the last 2 weeks in prep for Valencia, I did some workouts where I realized my threshold had gone from like 320s at the start of the build to like 255s. Um, and I was doing these threshold workouts in the heat and humidity on this treadmill. Um, And I thought, okay, I'm actually in pretty good nick here. I, based off the times that I'm doing, I should be able to run 2:55s, 2:54s for the half marathon, which is exactly what happened.

Mm-hmm.

So, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

How important do you reckon those treadmill runs running at race pace were for your overall program? And it's hard to pinpoint one session, isn't it, always? But what impact do you think those sessions had? Mainly for your confidence and for your body's ability to cope with that?

It was, yeah, it was huge for my confidence. Like, I could tell each week that I was getting faster and faster. Um, and that would just give me confidence knowing that the work is, is, uh, progressing. Um, and yeah, lots of people would look at, like, look at my life in Barcelona and they'd be like, but the weather's nice outside, why would you not just ride outside? Run outside. Um, but it was actually so hot this summer that I was, I preferred to be out of the sun, um, in a controlled environment too. Um, and yeah, my gym's only 2 blocks away walking, so it's kind of logistically just a bit easier. Um, but yeah, the, those threshold, like, it'll be, it's, it's remained a staple of my training now back in Melbourne as well, these threshold workouts. Um, and it just really allows me to listen to my body.

Mm-hmm.

Like, yeah, uh, you can't— when you suffer on the treadmill too much, you can really, you can really notice, um, like you can really feel yourself going into the red and then you just dial it back straight away. Whereas sometimes when you're outside, you kind of just get a bit carried away staring at your watch and you're not actually listening to what the body's doing. Uh, and yeah, I mean, not— treadmill is not for everyone.

Yeah.

Like these Kermil sessions were over 20k of work. But I think after my 4 to 5-hour ergos that I used to do, doing 20k in half sweet—

give, give us an insight of what that looked like, those, those threshold efforts.

Yeah, I mean, I do earlier on in the block, it was pretty basic, just 3 by 10 minutes, actually like 3 by 8 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

And that was at 3:20s, 3:15s, nothing like pretty, pretty slow to be honest.

But more like, more like subthreshold, isn't it really?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was almost like tempo work. And yeah, and then I eventually, once I built up, built up the aerobic efficiency and the mechanical efficiency to actually run 3-minute Ks, that took like a month.

Probably.

And then, you know, it built up from, as I said, 8 by 3 minutes to 3 by 10 minutes. And this is all with 1-minute recovery in between. Sometimes on the 3rd rep, I'd have to have 2 minutes rest from the 2nd to the 3rd because I was overheating. And then eventually by the end of the block, I was doing, like, 4 by 5K, which is pretty, which is pretty big.

And that's it. Yes.

like under 15 minutes each.

Yeah.

5K.

Yeah. You've essentially ran a half marathon on the treadmill at your, at your target pace, pretty much, like, or just under maybe. Yeah.

I did one, I did one session. It was like, a 10K threshold at, I did like, 29:20. And then 3 minutes rest into 6 by 1K at 2:43 average. Um, with a minute rest in between. Yep. And when I did that, the, one of my, uh, gym instructors who, who's a, a runner himself, he was looking at what I was doing. He was like, you're gonna run so fast in Valencia next week.

Huge confidence booster. Um, we've, like we said before, the treadmill's not for everybody. And we, we find a lot of people respond differently. And the reason we don't love it for a lot of athletes is the repetitive nature. Like it's high risk of injury we find for people compared to running outside. Um, but but also it's, it's, it is quite different to running outside in that it, um, gives a little bit more. So we find it inflates paces for lower heart rate. So how, how different did you find that? Did you find you had a lower heart rate response compared to outside? Was it reasonably similar? What was, was your body doing?

It's interesting, like there's some treadmills where I run artificially fast on for sure. Um, and they're normally the ones with the belts. So the ones that are slated, they're more, they're pretty close to road feel. And the thing is in when normally when you're on treadmill, you overheat. So there comes a point where actually running on the treadmill is harder than running outside. So I think like in these threshold sessions early on, the pace feels really easier than if I was running outside, but then halfway through my, halfway through my threshold, maybe I'm starting to overheat.

Yep.

And that effort is actually harder than running outside. I think it depends on how you hit the ground too. There's some, there's some people that actually run slow on a treadmill. Um, there's some people that run really fast on the treadmill. Like, if I had have done that session outside, that 10K session with the K reps after it, I wouldn't have been able to do 2:43s. No way. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it can— that, that's where it was tricky for me cuz I, I did all these super workouts on the treadmill. Um, uploading them to Strava, so many people being like, oh my God, he's gonna run so fast in Valencia. But you never really know cuz sometimes treadmill numbers don't translate to road. Yeah. But then in race day, in a group, the, the drafting, it felt exactly almost identical feeling to what it was like on the Tribel. Um, it was fascinating. I was curious to see if I was in a big group, if I'd get that drafting feeling that you get inside.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

And definitely when you're running like 21K an hour with a group of 15 guys, the sit is really nice. Um, which makes me realize how important it is for my debut marathon to be in a big, big group.

Yes. Yeah.

I don't know if it's just the way I run and like the way I hit the ground. I just benefit a lot from having a sit. Um, but like we were running, yeah, 2, some early on we were running like 2:48 pace and just felt like 3-minute Ks. Um, So yeah, but yeah, but back to your question, treadmill pace is very individual. And as long as you are going, like in my case, as long as I was going to the same treadmill in the same gym in the same conditions every week and I was seeing improvements, then that's the only thing I could really do it off. Everything else was, didn't really matter.

Hard to compare outdoor to indoor with heart rate, but did you notice a difference in heart rate from your threshold work indoor compared to the race?

I wouldn't use heart rate data so much. I should, I should have. But just because I was overheating so much on this treadmill, I didn't really wanna, yeah, I'll just do it off feel, to be honest. And also I was doing such high load too that I feel like my heart rate would've been a bit lower than what it actually would be. So yeah. Um, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to say, but I mean, if true, I guess true lactate, true, true threshold should be measured with lactate, I guess. Um, but heart rate's definitely the next bet. Um, but, uh, like I've been doing some cross-training on the bike and, um, I've been using heart rate just to make sure I'm in the right zones. do like that high aerobic zone. So it's still very relevant.

Yeah. Spoken like a true experienced athlete, you know, using all data points and, and that's what we, we honestly love because we just implore people, like, we are so power driven for, for age group athletes cuz it's just one of the most beneficial things they can use for cycling to just help inform them. But, but people mistake that with us thinking we only care about power and, and your ability of what you're explaining here is that in some context you're trying to look at heart rate and others it wasn't so helpful cuz you're overheating on the treadmill. And that's, that's the way to use data is you use what's appropriate appropriate. And so thinking about the nuance of the Sunday long run, I really wanna know what was your kind of range of, if you're waking up, what's the type, type of time range that you're thinking about depending on how fresh or, or cooked you are? And then what kind of paces, um, what's the range of pace that you'd go fast or slow?

Yeah, I mean, in my case, like I was doing 3 sessions a week, so the Sunday long run was like really squeezing it was not necessary. Um, and I also wasn't preparing for a marathon. So if I was doing a marathon block, it, I would be, that Sunday long run would almost become my most important day. Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, yeah, cuz I was doing 3 sessions a week, I'd normally come into the Sunday being like, oof, I'm actually a bit tired here. Um, like by the end of that block I was running twice a day every day except for Sunday. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so Sunday almost felt like a recovery day in a way. Um, like I I would most days, the average, the average Sunday was just, like an hour 45 to 2 hours at 4:20s to 4:30s. But having said that, if I ran along the beach in Barcelona and I didn't wake up early enough, which was normally the case, it would end up being pretty hot. So yeah, it was like actually quite a bit of aerobic or like cardio stress, but not massive stress on the legs. Um, I'd wear like big thick, uh, shoes, no carbon plates.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and just, yeah, enjoy normally a, a long run with a friend and run at the pace that they wanted to run at. Um, and then, uh, yeah, but there was, I think, 3, 3 long runs in that block that were pretty quick. I did one that was, uh, 20K at 3:30s. Um, which was like Yeah, giving it some, a little bit, um, just to like really boost that aerobic efficiency. And that's the type of stuff I'd have to do when I'm doing my debut marathon, I think. Um, just like conditioning that, the legs, the pounding. Um, but yeah, it would, yeah, I guess I'd wake up on a Sunday and I kind of know if I was ready to, um, do 4-minute Ks or 4:30s. Um, and, and also I'd finesse it through the run too. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I was doing a lot of my training solo, which allows for me to really listen to my body as opposed to running in a group and then running to the pace of someone else's. Yeah. But, um, so that, that had its, had its perks. Um, yeah.

Your, uh, your easy runs during the week, uh, recovery runs. Give the listener an idea of how fast or slow you're running those.

Yeah, so Mondays and Fridays were just my double day jogging, um, normally just 4:30s to 4:20s. Um, if I felt good, sometimes like 4 of these jogs in the afternoon would be on the treadmill. Um, and I would actually do the treadmill jogging kind of fast, like a 3:50s to 4-minute Ks. Um, like, I don't know what it is about, um, sometimes the treadmills that I'm just able to roll faster without any more effort. Um, so yeah, and I sometimes just put some house music in and end up getting a bit too excited. Um, but yeah, like nothing, it would all be based off feel. Like if I felt like running 4:20s, I'd run 4:20s. Um, I wouldn't have a— it would just be, yeah, based off, um, how I was feeling. And yeah, nothing too complicated, to be honest. I wasn't looking at heart rate or anything. Um, just getting out the door and going for a jog, simple as that. And normally they were around anywhere from, um, 8 to 10K. Um, but yeah, and sometimes also strides at the end of it.

Yes. Strides, strides on those days, even on top of the, the Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday workouts.

Yeah. Normally I'll do strides a day before I had a workout. So just to get the body going. Um, and yeah, and I'll do strides and I do, I do strides particularly on the days where, when I felt tired, which is kind of counterintuitive, but it's like, kind of wakes the body up. Mm-hmm. And then you feel way better afterwards. Sometimes if I felt super sluggish in a jog, I'd actually do like a K where I would kind of do strides in the jog and try and wake my body up, and that would fix it, which is one way to do it. Some people might look at things that, well, if your body's tired, just go slower.

But yeah, that's incredible insight into the block, and I'm really just, I'm still shocked at how quickly you were able to progress that mileage manage, um, and not, not be totally wrecked, you know? And obviously, as you're explaining, you were, you were starting to feel cooked, but were you getting excessively sore and you just managed it? Did you find you just weren't getting that sore and your body just coped well? What, what was it?

I found, um, like when I'm in Barcelona, and from everything that I've learned with cycling, I've really learned how to rest properly too. Like I have the luxury where I don't have to look after two kids, for example, or like have to, yeah, work a job in between. So I'm really able just to sit on the couch, rest, eat the right stuff. Like, uh, fueling, fueling is massive too. And also just eating good quality food all the time and eating enough protein, enough good carbs. Um, yeah, all that stuff really adds up. Um, but yeah, just, just being horizontal a lot of the time, it really helps. As basic as that sounds. And it's not, no one likes hearing that too, because it's not like something that you can just buy and then, uh, so yeah. And also getting a massage like once a week. And then if I wasn't feeling, if something was feeling tight, I'd book in for two. Which, which got expensive, to be honest. Um, but the true expense is like getting injured. So, um, that also really helped. Um, yeah, and just like not waiting for a problem to happen, just keep going to the physio, keep going to get in that massage, even if you feel like, oh, why am I spending this $90? Um, you just like have to respect that the, my investment into the running and my, what I wanted to do, like I have to do that. Minimum standard. Um, yeah.

Were you doing, were you doing many days of some, just some functional conditioning and, uh, stretching, strengthening? Was there anything in the program that was, you know, allowing you to stay uninjured there, or was it just, just train, rest, nutrition?

Yeah. Uh, um, I have lazy glutes and hamstrings, so Uh, if I start a run and I haven't done any, like, I do the most basic glute exercises and hamstring exercises. It takes like, like 5 minutes. Um, like glute bridges, um, single leg squats, even just like with a medicine ball, and not medicine ball, Swiss ball, going on the floor and then rolling out the hamstrings and just getting them engaged. Um, that was something that I had to make sure, keep on top of. Um, because otherwise my ITB would get really tight. So yeah, that was my problem area. Um, and yeah, just getting on the foam roller, um, after runs when everything's warm too. Um, and yeah, getting the massage ball right into the glute med would really help. Like, my hips would naturally just get tight from all— from everything. Um, So yeah, and also I would do a lot of saunas. Mm-hmm. Not for, I mean, for heat gains, but also just to relax the body going between like the cold pool. And then I find that really helped like reset mentally, just some time away from the phone for an hour. But then also just my, it would really help. Like a lot of the time when I was doing these treadmill doubles, I would then go down to the sauna in the gym. Um, and yeah, there was also a spa there so I could like get a self-massage kind of thing. Um, and that was a way of me keeping, yeah, mentally and physically refreshed. Um, and I still do saunas here in Melbourne a lot, um, at the, my local, uh, pool and sauna.

So yeah, yeah, the, the sauna protocols are getting more and more finesse, as you'd say, and specific, and, and proving to be extremely helpful. We know the value of, of heat, and in comparison to altitude, it's, it's really getting quite specific. And this is a question I was going to ask later, but I kind of just want to get into it now because you've mentioned it. Yeah. And it's really around this area of, um, of, of professionalism and specificity. And you put out this great post, and there's going to be a few points I want to ask you on, but one of them was talking about how all the things cycling has taught you. And one of the things you just mentioned was cycling's taught you how to fuel properly in training, you know, in recovery and in races. And something that you think the running world might be a little bit behind on, um, compared to, to cycling. So what, what specifically is that for you? A, what do you think the differences are and, and what are you doing specifically to, specifically to really fuel yourself properly?

Yeah, I, I kind of undervalue everything that I've learned in cycling. Just having been exposed to so many, like, different teams with all the infrastructure, you have the nutritionists, Uh, yeah, the, even just learning from old pros and new pros coming through, uh, like you can really see how everyone does it. And a lot of it is individual. There's no cookie-cutter approach. It's like trial and error. Um, so like there's some riders that do really well from with carb loading in a specific way. There's some riders that do it completely differently. And like finessing that and then working that out myself was really valuable. Um, and yeah, just understanding like how many carbs to eat on a high intense day. Like, it's crazy how much you actually have to eat. And then also taking out all the fats and proteins that day too, to try and make sure that the body wasn't getting overloaded. And then also on your recovery days, like, uh, yeah, making sure you're getting all that, uh, high fiber, high protein, high, like good fats in, um, small things like this. And then also even just like the electrolyte balances too. Like you, we sweat a lot. Um, particularly on the bike. It's crazy. It's crazy to think back, um, like when I, in my neo-pro years at EF, just how poor my nutrition was and there were so many moments in races where I looked back and thought that I wasn't good enough in a race, but actually it was just my fueling. Um, and I, and I put myself in some pretty big physical stress for long periods of time just from underfueling and then maybe overfueling as a result. And then, yeah, just big swings. Um, yeah, both in performances, like even in weight too. Like it's a, Yeah, it's a hard art to master. And I'm just lucky to now know how I, how my body operates at this level. And yeah, taking that into my running, I can definitely, it definitely really helps me to be ready for race day and just spending time with runners. There's, there's lots of, yeah. Information that they could learn that I've been able to learn through cycling. Um, but at the same time, cycling can also be like information overload in a way. Mm-hmm. And sometimes the best athletes in the world are just the ones that have their routine. It's not su— super scientific, and then they win races. So it's like maybe this cycling approach for some runners is not actually sustainable or a good fit for them.

So yeah, it's, it's an interesting one, isn't it? And I think a lot of the learnt, it's almost like cycling's just steps ahead of, of the running world. They're just kind of breaking into, into the nutrition world and they have been for probably the last 5 years. And, and training for the workload each day is one of the key things I think that the cycling world does really well. Um, if you've got an easy day, you don't need to fill your body with carbs. If you've got a hard day coming up, you don't need to, to be pushing protein down its, down your throat. You know, you've gotta fuel for the workload each day. And I'm, I'm guessing that's what you're alluding to for, for, but also experimenting. People think that, you know, there's a rule that, you know, you should have 90 grams of carbs or whatever the number is. It's really individual. It's, What, what suits Jordan, what suits you, what suits me can be completely different and we'll get really good value out of having 60 grams or 120 grams. But you've gotta, you've gotta learn it, don't you? You've gotta find what works. And in any, any given week or, or long day on, on the bike, you learn what was too much, what was just right, and what was too little. And they're the things you probably really feel like you've got to better grasp on, would that be right?

Yeah. But, but again, I'm in this trial and error phase all over again because now I'm in a new sport. I'm not, I'm doing a 2-hour Sunday long run instead of a 6-hour ride to Healesville. So that's completely different. The, the, the night before nutrition is different. The breakfast is different. Like with running too, like in, when I was cycling, the breakfast I could have were huge and then I'd just get on the bike and go, but Like I can't do that when I'm running. I almost need to fuel the night before and then have a light breakfast so that like, yeah, the stomach didn't have, yeah, 250 grams of carbs rolling in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sloshing around.

Yeah. And just, um, but yeah, like now doing a new sport, like the calories are different, the amount of carbs I need are different. Like it's, um, it's a different beast. So I've also gotta be aware not to think that I know what I'm doing. Cause I've gotta retrain everything again. But taking bits and pieces from what I've learned in cycling to then apply to running is definitely very helpful. It's just which pieces do I take is more the question, cause it's not all transferable.

And the thing I'll add from the nutritionist we've had on the podcast is the last part of the trial and error. But then there's also, you can train your, your body and, and your gut, and that's bigger for running than cycling. Cause cycling you can't just get away with almost not anything, but you can get away with a lot and get on the bike and be able to ride with it, whereas running you can't. But that might just be at the start, whereas you can train your body to what it needs to handle over, over the 2 hours of a marathon. And yeah, that can—

Yeah. One, one thing I learned with, through trial and error over this 12-week block was, um, if I wanted to fuel on race day with a gel, I would actually be better off with a chew bar. Um, cuz it sits better in my stomach. So I have, like throughout training I don't use gels, uh, throughout the long run. So I'd actually use these, yeah, the chew bars that are more solids. Um, so in Valencia I had a chew bar halfway through the race or like 20 minutes in. Um, so that's an example of like, in theory I should be using a caffeinated gel that is absorbed faster into the system, but I was actually better off not using caffeinated gel and just using a basic tube bar, um, cuz it was a safer, um, way of fueling for my body when running. Whereas when I was on the bike, I could just slam gels or like the, we were talking about just day-to-day nutrition, but like race day nutrition too is on the bike is something that I found probably most valuable, um, for getting ready for the Valencia Half. So the whole like low fiber stuff. Really helped, um, and helps like de-stress the gut and also helps with the carbo load. Also taking, kind of going gluten-free helps a lot with my like week into the race. Um, and like decreasing my dairy intake as well. Um, things that again, trial and error works for some people, well, it doesn't work for others, but for me it really helps just get rid of inflammation. Um, like maybe I should do that all year round, the whole gluten-free thing, but I just like it. So, yes. Um, like I'm not a robot. I'm happy to be a robot for like pre-race, but, um, yeah. And, and a lot of that would just help with, yeah, one, getting the carbs in and like help with like the whole weight thing. I know it's a sensitive topic, but like it's a game of physics sometimes. Um, and so like, yeah, I mean, my race weight's like 62 kilos, which is pretty small for someone that's, um, 186 centimeters. Um, and just small details like that with the food can really help. Um, and then yeah, when I am fit, have the engine going and the body's ready to go, like I can have a good performance. And it's just all these small details that you pull together on race day and then all of a sudden I'm race ready.

Let's talk about Valencia. You turn up in your— and in what is to me, I just absolutely cannot— I just love this image so much. You turn up in your old ZAV singlet, which is your old schoolboys singlet, to one of the fastest half marathons in the world against all the other guys and their pro kits. And I just love that. It's your old, basically your old high school singlet, club singlet. It's absolutely brilliant. And you, credit to you, and you've done this your whole journey, you know, you've really put yourself out there publicly. And it's not in an arrogant way, it's not in a look-at-me way, you're just open to people following along the journey. And it makes the journey really fun to watch because you know what's coming. You put it out there for everyone to watch, and it just means that we know what your expectations are, we know what you're going for, whether you pass or fail, at least everyone has an insight into kind of what you're doing, which is really cool. And I can't remember if you put specifically your time goal for Valencia, but I remember I think you either mentioned or something the kind of range you were going for, you know, low 60s. And you mentioned on a podcast recently how, you know, some people might have scoffed at that. And I remember I didn't quite scoff, but I went, if you can do that, either you were going to be an absolute superstar triathlete because you've got the cycling running at such an elite level. Um, or you should, yeah, quit, 100% quit triathlon. If you can pull that kind of time out in a half, you should be a full-time runner for sure. Um, and you did it, you put it out there and you ran a 61:37, which ended up being top 15 or top 13 fastest half marathons by Australian of all time. And so yeah, take us through, take us through the day and your goal race plan and the confidence you had to take to go for that time, despite what you said earlier where you said, you know, you didn't know if the treadmill training, the threshold workouts would be able to translate to outdoors. Yeah. Talk us through the, the, the race plan and that goal time.

Yeah. Like the, my build every week I was getting faster and faster and it came to a point where I was like, I actually just need to put some pressure on myself and publicly say that I wanna run really quick. And I'm not afraid to try and put a bit of pressure on myself and yeah, just say like what time I want to chase. I think one, it puts pressure on myself to perform, which is, to be honest, what it's all about. And it's also entertaining for people to get involved with and just see if I can do it or not. Um, success or failure is kind of entertaining in sport and running. Running at its core is a bit boring, so Um, yeah, if you, if you're an athlete and you say, look, I'm in the condition to run this, like, I think I can do it, then, um, then yeah, I wasn't afraid to say that. And there also wasn't, uh, anyone crashing in front of me or like more very where that could get, that performance can go out the window. Like it's a lot more controllable. Like you put the work in, you can either do it or you don't, like, and you're fully responsible. For, to an, to an extent. There's still a few things that could go wrong, but it's a much simpler existence and a much simpler performance. So yeah, that's where I said like, uh, yeah, I, I said like a few times I could run like 2:55s, like people asking questions on my Strava, what time are we going for in Valencia? And I'd say sub 62, like anything under, over 62 and I wouldn't be happy. Um, and actually in the race itself, our group. Through 5K, I was in the 60:30 group. Um, and I actually didn't feel like I belonged in that group, so I, I chucked it in neutral and waited for the next group to come past, and I hopped, hopped in with these boys that I ended up running with. Um, in hindsight, I probably should have stayed with the 60:30 group. They, they were a group that worked a bit better. Um, and I was just afraid that, uh, my legs would blow up. Like, my engine was ready for it, but it— I just wasn't sure about my legs. And yeah, got— actually got across the finish line. People would see my YouTube video, like, I came across the line pretty fresh. Um, and that feeling in itself, going across the finish line knowing like, okay, I can run a lot faster, like, what could I do for a marathon, gave me so much confidence. Um, but yeah, I think more runners need to have the cojones to say, okay, uh, I have done all this training, I'm a professional athlete, this is the time I'm going for, let's see if we can do it. Um, but at the same time, I also get why people don't do that because it puts a lot of pressure on and a lot of people don't like that pressure, especially social media pressure. So if you don't do it, you look like an absolute fool. But I mean, that's what it's all about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Connor Mansfuss did it, um, at Chicago this year. He just put it out there, he's going for the American record, and he put it so publicly. And, and as you said, most runners don't do it. Because he did it, it created such a media storm, and credit to him, he handled it really well. And you'd see why a lot of runners don't want to do it because of the media storm it created. But he ended up breaking the American record, and it was a, it was a great success. But I agree with you, it's, it makes it really fun as a spectator to go, oh, here's what they're going for. You really want to follow along the journey.

Yeah, a good example is, um, like Aftu was going for the Australian marathon record a few weeks ago and didn't have a good race and didn't get any, like, had a, yeah, not a great performance after 34K or something, or 30K. And yeah, didn't get anywhere near PB. So that's an example, but I still have so much respect for him just saying in pre-race interviews, I'm going for the Australian record. That's that. Like, I'm in the condition for it. Um, and like, there was a lot of chatter talking about like, oh, how it's, you know, a bit of an ego. It's like, it's not an ego at all. He's been doing the training, he knows where— how fast he can run. And, um, like, what else are you doing it for? It's like, he's doing— he's a full-time athlete. Um, that's what it's— that's what— that's what you shoot for. So yeah, it's a good example of that.

Did you feel any really uncomfortable challenge in that, in that 61:37? Did you, were there any points where you went, whoa, I'm, my legs are starting to, to falter here? Or did you feel pretty strong the whole way through?

Yeah, well, through 10K it was like 28:40 something. Um, and I didn't wanna look at my watch. I didn't wanna look at the timer as we rode past. Uh, cuz I felt good and that's the only thing that mattered. Uh, And yeah, I was like with Alex Yee and like all these Nike guys and Adidas guys. And then yeah, me and an old Zev Singlet. So I really felt like I wasn't, I felt like I didn't belong, but I just said like, you know what, if I can pull this off, this is awesome. And there's only like, uh, I need to stay in this group. My legs could fall off at 17K, but let's just see. Um, then 15K came around and I just felt the same as I did. Through 10K, and then I was like, I'm gonna do this. Like, uh, this is— I'm just in the group, just need to switch off, try and smile a bit. Um, like, I had some people who had followed what I was doing in training, and like, people were yelling my name on the side of the road, was really cool. Um, and yeah, I was just really enjoying it. This is one of those days where you're suffering, but everything's Everything's really good. Um, I didn't have any, yeah, any like demons or anything like thinking, oh, I need to stop. Like it was, yeah, it was really quite comfortable. Um, and I don't know if that's just a reflection on bike racing being so stressful and then coming to conditions like this where, I mean, running's simple and that's the challenge of it all, and that can arguably make it harder than cycling, but just, yeah. Yeah. Coming from bike racing and racing in the World Tour to then racing a half marathon, it's like, it's just a much more relaxed experience. If you're on a good one. I'm sure if you're on a bad day, like, it's not very fun.

It's fascinating because it, you're so right. It's cycling is so intense and you can be, you can go into the red zone in the first 20 minutes of the race and then have to, you know, suffer with that for the rest, rest of the race. Whereas running, you're not doing that. You're running well within yourself. And, and we always say to athletes, you know, whether you're at, no matter what level you are, in a half marathon or marathon, the first half should feel really easy. It should feel really comfortable. 'Cause if you're too far over threshold, you won't make the end. You know, you have to run that little bit within yourself. And yeah, it's always going to hurt in that last quarter of the race. That's when it's going to catch up with you and that's where you have to fight. And you probably found that, you know, Yeah, you, you probably ran within yourself the whole race and so you've got a bit more in you, but that's what running should be most of the time. It's so controlled and you should be running within your limits, um, until the back half and the back quarter.

Yeah. I mean, I, I'm sure I'll do another race one day and I'll, I, and I'll stuff it up. Um, that's for sure.

Yes.

Um, it's a, it's a very fine line. Like maybe if I stayed with that 60:30 group, I would've gotten through 10K and like DNF'd. Who knows, gets, it really is that few seconds per K that can like be fine and then not fine very quickly. But I think in my next half marathon I will, yeah, try and be in that 60 to 60:30 group and see what happens. And then, yeah, hopefully keep building on what I've already done.

How excited were you, coming back to Australia and thinking about, trying to go for the, Australian 10K, race that was, one of the traditional races, on the calendar in Australia called the Zadapek. Yeah, tell us a little bit about how, how that was looking for you.

Yeah, I mean, half the reason why I came back was to do a prep for the Zadapek, the 10K. And, yeah, unfortunately, as people would've seen, I didn't race in the end. I got a, yeah, a, a sore foot from running around in spikes. Um, like it was always gonna be a bit of a risk, one, preparing for this race and then also doing the race itself. Um, but like I've spent years racing overseas in Europe and like nothing beats a home race. Um, and I was pretty excited, like the form I was getting into, like having that base from the half marathon and then starting to sharpen up. Some of the, the speed work I was doing around the track. Yeah, like 2 Tuesdays ago I did a track session, um, just humming around like 61-second 400s, just ticking them off. And like, I was like, okay, I'm in ripping form here. And, um, yeah, I was super frustrated, uh, to then have like a niggle in my left foot, to then basically come to the decision that I did 2Ks of work in spikes, and if I had done a 10K race in spikes, I could be doing some pretty serious, uh, damage. So yeah, I made the tough call not to race. Um, and it's definitely the right call just for the context of next year. And, um, like I could have found myself in a situation throughout the race where, you know, I'm in amazing form and then I only get 6K in and then I have, have to pull out. So it just wasn't worth it. And then, yeah, and then you have a bad performance and then you cook your foot even more and then you have to have 6 weeks off. So, um, I would have loved to have been there and to try and, yeah, match it with the top guys. I was definitely in the shape too, but yeah, who knows. It's all well and good saying that on a podcast, but, um, yeah, it's like, I think the shape I was in, like, I was well under, I was probably close to like 27:30 shape, 27:40. Um, but I guess we'll never know. I'll have to wait until next year.

Yeah, yeah. Some, some more time on Sparkers. It's, it's crazy how your body can handle, yeah, 200Ks of volume and then a little bit of work in Sparks just, um, immediately brings something up. But yeah, very smart decision making, especially for your, your goals next year, just to cop a bit of a, um, a missed opportunity in that one. And, and we're sure you come back on it. I do want to, um, just finish the conversation with just this unbelievably fascinating topic you've brought to light overall of of crossing cycling and running worlds. And, and actually, Dad, you went on a marathon podcast a couple of years ago and they asked you on that podcast, you know, what could runners learn from triathletes or cyclists? And your answer back then was you think runners are missing out so much on the free aerobic gains you could be making from the bike. So many runners could be getting much more volume on the bike without risking more injury. And obviously it's not perfectly translatable all the time, but Jimmy, you're a, you're a specific example of it translating quite well. You also put this in your own post, Jimmy, where you said, you know, pro cycling has way more aerobic volume that you just can't match as a runner. And, and I, I love this quote you said where you said you were asking yourself, did I just waste 10 years of my life trying to become a, you know, a pro cyclist when running was my calling the whole time? And then your answer to that yourself was, well, no, you know, maybe the cycling career has what's propelled me to and, and enabled me to have a running career. So what's your thoughts on, on the value of this insane engine you have and, and what, you know, runners could learn from this?

Yeah. A lot of people have asked me, like, how do I implement cycling training to benefit my running? And yeah, and also, yeah, a lot of people asking me, like, Do you think the back-to-back weeks, month, months and months, years, years to years of just huge aerobic volume, has that kind of created a new ceiling aerobically for me coming into my running? I think it definitely has. Like my, I have years of data from my VO2, every year from 2016 all the way through to now. And like, I've definitely seen a pretty big increase in VO2. But that, that's not everything in, um, cycling. That's also me maturing as, as a, uh, adult. So getting bigger engine that way. Um, but yeah, just the, the amount of aerobic volume you can do on the bike is crazy. Like I look back at the, the numbers from the Duro, like 3 weeks and just the amount of time you'd spend at threshold. Like that just changes the, changes your body. It changes also like your brain's ability just to deal with. Being uncomfortable, I think too. Um, and yeah, I guess also the amount of time that I spend in VO2 as well in these bike races just, it's just mad. Um, like essentially you look at my running training, I'm, I'm doing one day a week where I'm doing maybe call it like, uh, 40 minutes of threshold. But when I was on the bike, a typical training week, I'd do like 3 or 4 hours of threshold work. Um, and also tie in all the altitude blocks I've done too. Um, that can really change a lot. And yeah, I definitely think, um, combine this engine that I've created through cycling and then still have these good biomechanics. I think that's why I'm able to run fast. Um, and the mechanics is a key part of that. That, yeah, I certainly think, like, for example, a lot of runners do double threshold days and like often you often, you hear of runners then getting injured from that. They get really fit really fast and then they get injured. But if I was them, I would do double threshold, but one of those sessions in the evening would be on the bike. Um, and you could do a monster threshold session. Like you could do 3 times 20 minutes, which is an hour threshold, which is so hard to do when you're running. Yes. But then you also have to understand how to ride a bike. Yes. How to like not get a lower back problem, have the bike fit correct. And, and all these things. So yeah, it's, it's, you see it in the, a lot, a lot of the pros in America, the track guys who are preparing for the Olympics, you saw a lot of them doing cross-training on the bike, on the indoor trainer. They were doing the double threshold sessions and also heat stress. So there you saw the guy who won the, what did he win? 1500, the 5K?

1500.

1500. He was doing bike workouts, threshold work. What's his name? Cole Hawker.

Cole Hawker.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good example. And even like Ingebrigtsen, you see, um, when he gets injured, he does some pretty aggressive cross-training and he's back running at a super high level really quickly. Um, also one, cuz he's a freak and two, his ability to cross-train on the bike and maintain that aerobic conditioning. So yeah, I think it's definitely something that needs to be, um, like I still think running is king. To be a better runner, you need to run more, but then it's that your limiter, um, and you get injured. Supplementing some of that with the bike can really change the game for a lot of athletes.

For a lot of athletes, their limiter is the volume and intensity they can do. You know, they, they would love to run more. It's not their mindset, it's just their body just doesn't allow them to. And, and a lot of pro runners actually can't run more than, you know, 150, 160K a week. You know, their body just, every time they do that, it hits their tipping point. And, and so Yeah, it's this fascinating subject, but you've brought up such a brilliant point that just getting on the bike for them won't necessarily work because you need to know how to ride a bike. And if you haven't had that experience, you kind of, you, you could be all over the shop on the, on the trainer and not, not really riding properly and not really getting the value out of the session either. So that's, yeah, that's such a, a brilliant point to make. What else have you noticed? Some differences coming into the running world. Um, you talk a lot about, about finessing the week around and getting it right, you know, and being able to make individualized decisions for yourself, to really make sure you're making the correct decision on a day-to-day basis. Yeah. What have you noticed coming into the running world that you think could be improved or that's missing, or that's, that's different?

I've really, I've really learned I've had to like listen to my body a lot more than what I was when I was cycling. Like I'd do VO2 efforts on the bike and I would absolutely rinse myself, but you just can't do that when you're running. Um, you have to be like, I have to be like 2 gears less than what I want to do almost. Um, just to make sure that, yeah, like I'll do supersessions on the bike, come home and then do a supersession again the next day. Whereas the back, the, the consistency of running week to week is more important than the, the one-off supersession. Um, so yeah, I mean, that's where like maybe I Got a bit too excited preparing for the Saddleback 10K. Like I did 2 weeks where these 2 big track sessions that were probably too much. Um, I mean, hindsight, hindsight is nice. I didn't feel like I was doing too much. Like it was still very controlled, but, um, yeah, it was, it was a lot to, it was a lot of intensity with a 200K week already being in the, on the, with the volume side of things. So. Yeah, just the finessing that, like, learning in my case, like, I feel like I'm 14 hours a week isn't much training, but then also understanding this new stress that is a completely different sport. So yeah, it's like a different type of tired. So yeah, it's something that I'll continue to learn. Oh, forever, really. The moment that you think you have it sorted, that's when you start doing really, really poorly. But yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a brand new sport. So like, I'm, I'm taking bits and pieces from cycling into my running, but I've, I've had to reinvent things a lot, to be honest.

I was just gonna say, it's, it, it is really, the efficiency that, that you've been able to transfer from bike riding to running has been fantastic. And the fact that you talked about running 3:20s for your threshold and then letting yourself yourself slowly, gradually get to 3:10s, 3:05s, 2:55s. You know, most people who are just so motivated, they're just gonna write, this is my threshold, this is the pace I wanna run at, and they're gonna jump straight into 2:55s, uh, if they can, and probably fail badly. Um, the, the mindset that you have, it's progression. You've gotta, you've gotta find out where you are and then gradually progress. And that's the way to stay uninjured. And, and to be not exhausted. And I think it's a great example for everybody listening, the way you've really thought through this. And, you know, you learn, you learn from your mistakes and maybe, you know, a couple of hard sessions on the track that, that's in hindsight, it's easy to say that now, but, but, you know, you're thinking like, I need a little bit of speed from the, to do a 10K properly. So it would make sense that I should be picking the pace up. Um, but you know, a different shoe, a Spike compared to a you know, a fast running shoe. They, they are different. Running on the track's different. Um, so, so there's a lot to learn, isn't there, about, uh, whatever your chosen sport is to really understand how your body's gonna cope with it. And that's the thing we find a lot of runners, they, they don't really value how good the, the cross-training is. If, you know, we are giving a lot of our runners a lot of VO2 work on the bike and they are bike riders, so they're getting the efficiency of the proper VO2 session, but you get some of the, that are long-term runners who've never ridden, they actually can't ride VO2 on the bike because they don't have the efficiency to pedal properly. Exactly.

Yeah.

To actually get the stimulus. It's like a non-runner trying to run fast. All that's gonna happen is he's gonna tear his hamstring, his calf, or something when he just goes and runs fast. And a bike rider doing that to try and get a hard session is not going to get that VO2 value. So, you know, you've got that really good experience of being a world-class rider who can actually throw back into a ride, you know, like you just told us off air, you've just done a ride this morning and, you know, you're able to get some value out of that. And I think that's a good message for everybody who's listening in. And I think you would agree that that's a real nuanced thing, isn't it? Is it valuable for you or can you get the best out of yourself by doing a little bit of both?

Yeah, so certainly it's an art to learn how to ride a bike. To a zone, to a heart rate zone. Um, and just for the body to learn how to put out power efficiently and consistently as well. Um, like today I did 2.5 hours and I tried to do 90 minutes at like high zone 2, which is difficult to do when you're going up and down hills, cuz you just wanna smash the hills and free roll it down, which is what most people would do. And that still gets you fit, but it's a very different fitness. So yeah, quite lucky that I, can still use cycling in that way as a cross-training to ensure that, that, yeah, aerobic efficiency is still high. And, and one thing that I'm really interested to see is over the next 6 months, if I need to bring in some big riding days to keep that aerobic conditioning going. That'll be interesting to see. I mean, at the moment my biggest limiter is my leg conditioning with running. But once I have that sorted, maybe my engine needs to stay topped up with some big aerobic days that I used to stress the body with. Um, but we'll see. It's, um, trial and error.

Particularly if you, uh, if you head into the marathon, which is what we're going to talk about next, I imagine. And, and, and really, you know, it is hard to, you know, if you're wanting to run, uh, who's the guy, the Japanese, the guy, the English guy who's in Japan who's doing 250K, don't you know? Uh, what's his name? I'm being— the redheaded guy is there and didn't— it didn't go so well at Valencia, but, um, uh, but yeah, you know, getting that volume, uh, up without actually breaking down. And, you know, you've already said your cardiovascular system's so far advanced compared to your musculoskeletal system, but you've done a good job in catching it up. It's just that marathon running is, you know, 21K is hard enough, but adding, you know, what are you, what's your body, your skeletal system, your legs gonna be feeling like at 36K when you've, you know, pretty much doubling that 21K almost. Now that'll be interesting, won't it, to see how your program needs to kind of tweak itself. And I'm sure you'll work that out because you've done an incredible job getting to the half marathon at that level. So yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how you look as a marathon trainer.

Yeah, it's a different beast. And my training will determine on, I guess, who I sign with and then like which coach I'm with and how that all looks. But yeah, it's like in a half marathon, you, you can kind of suffer for the last maybe 4K, but in a marathon, that window could potentially be 15K. So it's, yeah, it's not easy. And hopefully it becomes, it comes naturally. Otherwise, I've got some work to do.

So let's talk about it. So what's on the, what's on the 2026 racing calendar? What are you, what are you gonna aim for? And I think everyone would be super keen to find out where you think your debut marathon's going to be.

I'd love to do another fast half marathon. I think that's important to do. I'd like to be in a half marathon where I'm in that 60 to 60:30 group. And really redline it there and see how fast I can run again. Um, like my body's in a new, like I'm in a new, I'm, I'm at another level since Valencia, that's for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, like I did a, yeah, a month block with 800Ks of running and could just tell that like I really feel like a true runner now. Like I'm just hitting the ground differently. So much more efficient back-to-back days just, and I could tell from my long run just how much better I was. Um, uh, so yeah, I could potentially do, for example, the Barcelona Half Marathon on the 16th of February. Um, I would really like to do the Marugami, uh, half marathon at the end of January. Um, that's where the Australian record's always set.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Everyone runs really fast there, so I'd love to do that, whether that's next year or the year after, I'm not sure. Um, But yeah, and then once I tick off another half, fast half marathon, I'd love to give a crack with a marathon debut. It kind of depends on who, what shoe brand I go with will determine kind of that stuff. And whether I choose like a big world major that's maybe not super quick, but just good racing, or whether I choose Yeah. A race like, uh, I don't know. Um, yeah, like Amsterdam's pretty quick, for example. Could do, could do, could do London. Um, but I would love to do Valencia at the end of next year. I feel like, I feel like I could do one as a practice run in the middle of the year or like, um, yeah. But, and then by the time I do my second one, I could have a proper crack in Valencia. for like a, yeah, 3-minute case. So like that 2:06 group. Um, but I just gotta see how I, how my set 1 goes. Um, lots of guys for their first one, they do like a pacemaking job, 30K. So I could potentially do that. Um, so, but I don't like the idea of, uh, being on a good day and then having to pull out. Fucking time.

Yeah.

Maybe I'll be one of those pacemakers that still crosses the finish line, which, which is naughty.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I could do one, like there's, yeah, the, the Barcelona Full is in March. Um, I've just gotta sort out this, this foot at the moment and then get that all good. And then, uh, also work out, yeah, from there, just It would only take a 10-week build again to get ready for a marathon. I think that's all it takes. Um, but then this—

for you, yes. For most people, not, not so much, but yes.

Well, yeah, but the, the training I've been doing over the last few months is— would put me in— has put me in a good position to be pretty close to a marathon prep. Um, and as I said, just my aerobic conditioning, it's, uh, I think I'm better off to the marathon than the half. Um, but again, like, you never know with the marathon. Some, some guys are, are good through 30K, some guys aren't, and then they have to reinvent themselves and retrain their legs with monster long runs. And maybe that's what I need. Maybe I need to take the, the speed workout and just get really good at threshold and just time on legs at that aerobic pace. Yeah, we'll see. And also, I think I'm a super responder to altitude, so doing an altitude block for my marathon would be pretty essential. So I could go to my happy place in Fontenay potentially. Let's see. Yeah.

And then I, I do remember kind of you talking about how well you responded at altitude on the bike. But what would that mean running intensity-wise? You respond well with just bulk work and not so much intensity. What, what kind of training would that be if you went up?

Yeah, it would be, it would be bulk work for sure.

Yeah.

But it's a different, maybe that, maybe I can't get away with big volume at altitude with running. Maybe my body break down, breaks down differently to cycling. So like there's so many times in cycling that I would get in training just at altitude, just absolutely cooked. But then I met, you can't get away with that in running. So yeah, it'll be trial and error in my first year. So, and yeah, we'll see. I mean, if I can try and take the similar principles to my half marathon prep, tweak it a bit, and then I should be in the condition to do a good, a good time. That's the theory anyway.

Super exciting. We can't wait to see it unfold. We'll be watching very closely as always. Dad, anything from you to finish off?

No, I just love that last sentence you said. You had a fair bit of experimenting. And I just want to tell all the listeners out there, no one has it dialed. Everybody is experimenting. It doesn't matter whether you're in your first year as a marathon runner, as a half marathon runner, or triathlete, you're still learning how your body responds and what load it can accept. And so even in, you know, 4 or 5 years' time, you'll still be experimenting, Jimmy, and finding out what works better. And that's the beauty of sport, isn't it? We're trying to push the boundaries, and experimenting is what it's all about. We make mistakes along the way, but you try to eliminate those. But I think, yeah, what a great, what a great last sentence. Now I'm experimenting.

Yeah, there's lots of ways to do it and how I fall into place in which, in which process, we'll just have to see. Um, and yeah, and then, uh, it's like very simple sport but also very complicated at the same time. And I need to work out how complicated I need to make it in order to become the best runner I can be. And then, yeah, the, just the, the whole injury thing, like it's running is a different beast in that regard. You've gotta really listen to the body. So, yeah, that's a new dynamic that makes things complicated. So, while I say running's a bit more of a simple existence, like it's, yeah, it's got its own challenges and yeah, just, as curious as everyone else is, I guess, to see how fast I can run. So it's only one way to find out. I won't— my next race at the end of next year, I won't be in a club singlet anymore. I'll be in a pro, which is kind of—

we should keep running, wearing the club singlet, to be honest.

It looks good. I liked being that guy. Yeah, in a school singlet.

Yeah, it was unbelievable. Yeah. Nah, fantastic. I mean, you, good luck on the injury front. It's, it's the biggest limit for most runners. So, you know, we wish you the best in that regard. And I think you've already proven incredible robustness to be able to handle such big Ks and intensity so quick. I think that's a really strong start for your, for your running career. It's, it's a pretty good base to launch off. I think you should, you can, you've, you already must have some good confidence in your body and, and finding limits early. And I think every runner at some point crosses over that limit a little bit and then figures out where the line is to pull back from.

Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, I'm happy with where I'm at. I'm excited with where I can be at in like February and March next year. And like taking a break now is actually perfect timing for that period of February, March next year. So, um, it's been nice. Like I've been able to, like the last week I've been able to catch up with more mates and, um, it's like the silly season, so I've been driving them around.

That's brilliant.

Yeah. Like, that's been, that's been a perk with having some more time not being so dialed in as I can, like, be a social butterfly, which I'm normally not. So unreal.

Unreal. Well, Jimmy, thank you as always, uh, for coming on. Absolutely brilliant episode. It's, yeah, what a career you've had, you know, from the highest you can get in the cycling world, riding the Giro, to now translating it that into the running world. It's been Unbelievable to watch. So yeah, good luck for next year, and, uh, I'm sure we'll get you on some point to keep talking about it, but we can't wait to watch the marathon journey.

Yeah, hopefully I'm giving an update in a few months and we're talking about good things.

Brilliant, brilliant. Awesome, Nate. Thanks, thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.