Discussing The Perfect Bike Position with Dr Mitch Anderson

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode of the podcast, we had a man that rarely needs an introduction. It feels like every single person in the triathlon or cycling community of Australia knows who he is. And that is Dr. Mitch Anderson, if you don't know who he is, is a former professional triathlete, former Ironman winner. He's the also the 12 and 24 hour world record holder, which we have done a podcast on in the past, if you want to listen to that. He is a expert in a lot of things. More specifically, he is a physiotherapist, a doctor and a surgeon all combined into one. And he's the go to man for a lot of triathletes and cyclists when they're dealing with injury or want improvements in performance. And more specifically for today, we are talking about everything to do with fixing your bike position. And from Mitch's perspective, we talk a lot about and dive into the biomechanics and physiology and physiological adaptations and differences that bike position, different bike positions can create on your TT bike, on your road bike. And so this is a great episode. Obviously there's a lot to dive into and we'll just, we'll get straight into it because we love chatting to Mitch most of all. He's a good friend of ours and he's very fun natured and as you hear in any episode that you have on a podcast, he's a natural and so is always an enjoyable listen. So without further ado, here is Dr. Mitch Anderson. Doctor Mitch Anderson, welcome back to the Travelo podcast party on Wayne. Great to have you here, mate. Thank you for coming on.

Hello Jordan. Hello Jerry. And gentle listeners and watchers.

Yes, your podcast that you came on last time and told the epic story of your 12 and 24 hour event is one of our most listened to episodes and you spoke about a lot more on that podcast. So if anyone hasn't listened to it, we recommend going back and listening through. But today we are talking about fixing your bike position and all things bike fit. Now, you're a man of many talents, Dr. Mitch, as everyone knows, and one of them is bike fit and bike position. And to break the 12 hour and 24 hour record, you have to have a pretty good position. You don't want to be wasting any Watts, I imagine for one second in that event. Uh, so we're going to dive into it. I want to start off by asking what's, what's your priority with your position? What's your priority with the bike fit? What's the first thing you're thinking about and trying to achieve?

So when I see people in here, I probably do, yeah, look, I reckon I have three bike fits a week in the end. And that's sort of been going on for about three years now. And I become more and more sophisticated as I've gone through. But my message is always the same, that it has to be a comfortable, powerful fit, then aerodynamic for performance. Because if, if you try and place aero and comfort. Oh, sorry. And try and place it ahead of comfort, then you'll never push good Watts. And it's that whole thing. You can have some absolute monstrous people, but they can't push it in a time trial position. And so you think there's no point in being a monster if you can't actually get it out in your time time trial position or in your own position.

When, when you were preparing for those world records, how much time did you spend tinkering and changing your position? Cause obviously the event would determine the comfort. You're going to be sitting in a spot for 12 hours or 24 hours compared to a ironman, who's possibly going to be between four and six and a half. And a half Ironman, you know, two and three and a half, et cetera. Does it change by the amount of time that you're going to be spending in that position?

Yeah, so it definitely does. I mean, as you know, for the sorts of time trials that road cyclists are doing, then you can be more aerodynamic and put comfort a little too to the side. But I'd venture that even in road time trial, late road time trialing now, they're erring more and more about upright type positions, which mean they can get out big power. Because I don't think we've necessarily equated extremity of position with a low cda. So you can get really hang on one minute, but you can get really low at the front end. But it's not necessarily that slippery. Whereas the shape of your shoulders, the matching of your helmet, even getting your, obviously your elbows in the right position can make a huge difference to Watts. So to answer your question, I think, I mean, I wish I could have my triathlon career again. You probably say the same.

Terry or Mitch, they didn't have time trial bikes. I think we were still riding steel wheels and penny far.

So.

And, you know, the reason I'm saying that is that I put up my position by 60 mil, so I was 60 mils higher in the 12 and 24 hour, but I was pushing better watts for longer. And I sort of. I really wish that I had understood more what I know now about bike fitting and go back and tell my younger self, hey, just less aggression on position and you know, and get watts where it counts. I think, Jordan, that. Well, probably what's the first thing I'd really like to go through is the effect of your upper body position on breathing biomechanics. So I think that's one of the things that people don't really think about what the energy cost is of breathing. And actually it makes a huge contribution to all the energy cost of exercising because as your respiratory rate goes up and up and up, there's a huge cost of oxygen for your respiratory muscles. Now, the better trained you are. Well, in the same way that when your skeletal muscles become better trained, your respiratory muscles become better trained too. So there's definitely an. And therefore it costs less oxygen to run them. So part of the adaptation about being an elite athlete, or from a, from a Joe Blogg athlete to an elite athlete, is training your respiratory system. So I'd venture then one of the other reasons to be less extreme in position is to allow time for adaptation of your breathing muscles or your respiratory muscles. So the three main things I'd say are, and everyone will have seen this, that when an athlete finishes an event, it doesn't matter what distances it is, they will put their hands on their thighs and they will breathe in and out. So for those of us who are watching this on the podcast, on the video, their hands go on their thighs. Now, that's anchoring the respiratory muscles, the upper respiratory muscles. So, you know, essentially not the diaphragm and not the intercostal muscles, but these muscles that lift your clavicle up and actually create some extra room here for the lung to expand into. So where you have your hands is important. It anchors your respiratory muscles. And that's why this position, I don't think is as effective at anchoring your hands as this position. So, and, you know, I guess I've got. I've got my little barrow to push in terms of, you know, my background and having come as a respiratory physiotherapist, obviously, you know, I come at it different than, say, any other fitter. The second thing is your ribs, they bucket handle up and down like this, okay. So when you breathe in, if you look at it from front on, they're going like that and expanding your lungs, bucket handling up and down. So your intercostal muscles, that is the muscles between all of your ribs, have to move those ribs up like a piano accordion, essentially. So the tighter you have your elbows, the more resistance there is for your intercostals to work against. So even though this is an extremely.

Aerodynamic position, you can't breathe.

You can't breathe in and out. Exactly right, Gerry. And then the third thing is when you get. Hang on, when you get bent further and further forward, you're increasing your intra abdominal pressure. So then your diaphragm, which is shaped like two domes like this, which when you breathe in, flattens out and pushes against your abdominal contents and then relaxes and goes up. So again, the more intra abdominal pressure you've got, the more resistance you've got to breathe again. So the more you're bent double, the more pressure your diaphragm has to work against. Therefore increase work of breathing, increased cost, oxygen cost. And don't forget, the other element of that is that your gut, especially in the long races, is likely to be full of contents, that is food and fluid. So an even higher pressure in your gut from content. So, you know, there's this three axes that I'd say hand position, elbow position, forward, aft with the elbows to really unload and de work the respiratory muscles.

There's a lot to unpack there. I want to start by asking how do you find that line straight away? Because I've seen plenty of examples of pro athletes doing variations of exactly what you just said. Some having their hands on top of each other, some having their elbows touching even on the weekend there was, um, the Collins cup was on in the triathlon and most athletes had their always together. And Ellie Salt House, the Australian, had her elbows super wide and she was one of the few that had that. So it's obviously different preference for everyone based on what they've been told. Now how are you finding this line between all those three main points?

So I never went in. Oh, I went to the wind tunnel a couple of times as a, as a triathlete, but by and large I just did it by trial and error. I think the main thing I noticed about, I guess the Collins Cup. Well, sorry. What I think about when I hear about the positions that athletes have got, especially with regards to elbow width, is that when your knees are going up and down like this, like pistons, if they're not being covered up by something, then they're generating a lot of turbulence. Turbulence equals more resistance. So looking at Ellie Salthouse, I'd equate her position much more like a track cyclist who, when they're in their time tile positions, they have big wide arms like they're not doing. Guys on the track aren't doing this. They're not doing the praying mounting position and they're at higher speeds and with higher air resistance. So why aren't we more like trackies? And I know that they're trying to get maximum power out, but I guess that's my point, that if you're really looking to get maximum power out of your position, and you should be doing that before you're really an elite cyclist, where you've developed your respiratory system, it probably matters less as you get more and more elite, what your position is, you know, within reason. And obviously, obviously you want to get everything optimized. But, you know, let's just say the Collins cup guys, well, they've got well developed systems and they can probably cope with this as swimmers too. Their upper respiratory muscles are more developed than most people, so. And probably get away with it. Whereas, I don't know, it just makes sense to me to cover up your knees with your elbows. I mean, might be crazy.

There's so many things I want to say. One of the things being too compact in that position and exactly what you're talking about with, you know, the diaphragm, the abdominals, the person who looks nice and long and seems to have no creases in their body and is stretched out, that's giving themselves more opportunity to have that diaphragm breathing in and out, have their abdominals not being crushed. For the person who's kind of in that hunched down low head position and the backs arched up high, it doesn't, to me, it doesn't look as nothing to do with it, but looking aesthetically, the person who's long and stretched out seems way more effortless and easier to, you know, does that equate to riding better power? That's, you know, so what you're saying about the breathing diaphragm and abdominals is being stretched out, a more achievable and desirable position that you think will actually be more benefit to you?

Well, absolutely. I think, Gerry, that you're on the money there. You know, the way that I think about things when I see athletes in their, say, time trial position or their row position, I try and think about myself, do they look like a wound up spring? Because if you don't look like you're really ready to go, really get power down on the pedals. Well, your body probably isn't in a position to do that. So I guess, yeah, that's my aesthetic when I look at people, is do they look like a wound up spring? And I think the longer setup, to a point, you're absolutely right. It's lowering the intra abdominal pressure and allowing an easier air entry because obviously it reduces work of breathing. I think one of the things that I'll say, though, about. Well, there's two elements that I'd really like to talk about is that with the praying mantis position or this position per se, the issue isn't that it's not aero. It's also that it's difficult to move forward and back on your saddle. And for triathletes who are doing longer time trials, it's incredibly important that they can move on their saddle and also move on their elbow pads forward and back. And I would say anywhere between, say, plus or minus 20 mil on the saddle and probably plus or minus 10 mils on the hand position or the elbow position, which allows then you to shuffle, I guess, and get comfortable, depending on the gradient up or down, or who knows, it's a headwind and you can't, you know, you can't really move much at all. So you really need to, you know, just have micro movements. So being able to move, I think, is important. The second thing to think about, or I try and think about when I'm fitting someone is in particular the glutes. Because of all the people I see in my clinic, the thing that is most poorly executed is core and glute activation. And I know that, Gerry, you've got a really entertaining set of activities that you give your athletes to do, which I think is great because it gives people an awareness. Almost as if you're trying to get an electrical wire and thread it from here all the way to their abdomen or all the way to their glutes and be able to get things consciously switched on and then it should become then automatic. So, you know, that whole thing. Remember pe? Did you PE when you were a kid, Jordan?

Yes.

You remember. Well, you know how a skill goes in those different phases where it eventually becomes an autonomous skill, but you need sort of that cognitive process to actually do that. And that buys in a bit to the 10,000 hours type gaff, which I know that's not. That has been debunked, you know, especially with people like Roblick, you know, going.

Around, you know, Winning three grand as a ski jumper.

Yeah, as a ski jumper. That doesn't make any sense. And I think some people, like swimmers are born, not made. You know, some people just have better body awareness than others. So for trivalo athletes or listening to the podcast, getting to be able to activate core and glute at will so you can then think about it while you're training is a really highly useful task. So what I was trying to get to in a very long winded way is that your muscles are a ratchet, so they work on an actin and myosin cross bridging system. But if you think about it like a very simple ratchet system. So up and back, if we're aiming to get people's glutes and quads, the main drivers of cycling, obviously we've been focusing a bit on the respiratory muscles. If we're aiming to get them working in this midway position where they've got the most number of cross bridges when you have the greatest torque or ability to generate torque. So the lever of your crank is between say 2:30 and 5:00 o', clock because, you know, anything before that, we don't have a great, great long lever to push on when it's that long, but from about 2:30 onwards. So that's when you're aiming. You know, when I'm looking at people and bike fitting them, I'm thinking, have I got their glutes and their quads working in synchrony in that mid range position between 2:30 and 5:00'?

Clock.

And so the only issue getting back to the very start of this is that if you become too stretched out, then your glutes which attach to the top of your hip, they can be too stretched out to really work until, or they, they become, they, they get turned on the wrong part of the, of the stroke side. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean there's a lot, a lot involved in the whole process and this is really specific points that you focused on here. If an athlete walks into your bike fit, kind of unpack for me the steps that you take and what are you looking at first and how are you changing things? What's the, what's the process of getting them into a better position?

So one of the reasons why I don't do full time fitting is that, well, it's laborious. It really takes, you know, it takes a good 90 minutes. And also I like the fitting process to be involved with overall. And you know, my mum hates it that I do bike fitting because she's just like, Mitchell, you're a doctor. She's not an old Greek nonna. But, you know, he just wants me to treat patients. But, you know, I think that you.

Actually are treating patients because if they don't fit on the bike properly, they're going to injure themselves and they're going to be your patient anyway.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I even think before that, Gerry, is that. And I know I'm preaching to the choir here as part of our audience, is that exercise in general is the best preventative medicine that we can all hope for. You know, to a point. Obviously, there's an element where you're either getting injured or you're doing too much and hurting your. Hurting your heart or your blood vessels. But by and large, exercising a lot makes you a lot healthier. So, you know, I want people to exercise because it's good for them. And so I think cycling as a whole is a great sport because it's got a low injury rate. That said, you know, and one of the things I do touch on early, Jordan, in answer the question, is that small, small changes make a big difference. So when you're doing 100 revs per minute, it's multiplied by, let's say, a 2 mil change the 60 minutes times 5 hours. You can make, you know, 40 meters change to someone's position by making a 2,3 mil change of their. Of their saddle or their cleats or whatever it is. So that's why, you know, realistically, one of the main things I'd say to people is if you want to fiddle with your position, well, document it, you know, like, steal. I don't care. Steal my thing, like my bike figuring system and just basically write down all your positional stuff and then make some small changes and say, does that make me feel more or less comfortable or am I working my glutes more? Can I feel I'm switching on? So I want to give people, you know, some tools to play with. That's the main thing I'm trying to do when someone comes in for a bike fit and also try and give them the liberty, the confidence to make changes themselves because I don't want them coming back and seeing me every time they're uncomfortable. I want them to be able to, you know, let's say, give. Give a man a fishing line and.

It should fish rather than fish for him.

Yeah, correct.

Yeah.

So I think what we go through is, is to start off with, is. Is there in terms of their fit, is the injury profile and that's why I think it marries up really nicely with, you know, sports medicine and physio, is that I'm trying to see people through the lens of, I guess, usually an injury, sometimes it's just discomfort, but usually an injury and prevent that from happening again and. Or identify the problem with the fit and teach them along the way the things they can do. So getting a past history and, you know, I take a little medical history just to make sure I'm not missing something, you know, I don't know, cancer of the butt or something before you get them sitting on the bike. But then I take a little video so that we can have a look at what they look like before. And I do some key points. As I said, I take a systems approach because if you do something the same every single time, and I reckon I've probably done 500 fits now, at least in the last couple of years, as soon as you start getting away from your system, we start making mistakes. So the first thing I always do once I've taken a video, taken through the video, is measure the bike, make sure you know what you're going to go back to if the seats dropped or we want to know how much we changed it by. The second thing we do, then check the cleats. If you check your cleats well, that's the only thing that when you clip in, you can't move. So once they're in, they're in. So I think people make common mistakes about just sticking their cleats on any old place or any old how and then expecting that they can compensate for a poor cleat position. We should dive a little bit more into that down the track. But then I go through. Okay, we make some changes. You know, I guess I always start at the saddle first. You should always change saddle position first and then have the handlebars to fit, not the other way around. Because we're obviously aiming for power first and then aerodynamics later or, you know, the other comfort stuff later, and then take a video, go through how much things have changed. And there's usually some exercises I get to be able to do as well, if not an X ray, a blood test or whatever else we might have spoken about from a medical perspective. So I guess that's a bit of.

A overview look, it's always intrigued me and a lot of the listeners have experienced this because most of them are predominantly switching between time trialing or triathlon or cycling. So in terms of, you know, I see almost every athlete able to push better power on their road bike than they can in their TT position. Whether, whether it's on a bike with clip ons or whether it's in a TT bike, same person and you know, extraordinarily nearly 40 watts less on the time trial bike. Biomechanically, what is, what is happening that's wrong, that's preventing them from pushing? Because the all the goal for me as a coach is to say to them, right, you can push 300 watts on the road bike and you can push 270 on the TT bike. Let's get your tt bike to 300 and you'll be a better bike rider. As a time trials, what's biomechanically stopping them, Mitch?

Glutes. It's absolutely glutes. So by tipping forward, you're extending or lengthening out that ratchet and their glutes just aren't able to do the work at the right point in the pedal stroke. And that's why, you know, I'm constantly at odds with athletes about reducing extremity of their position because all I think about is aero, where it should be, how can I get my wattage out first and then change the arrow afterwards. So, and you're absolutely right, Gerry, that when you're in a nice upright position and you're used to engaging your glutes, then of course you get high wattage. There's also, as we touched on earlier, the respiratory effort that is definitely less when your arms are nice and open on the tops. And I think.

One of the key.

Things that I get athletes to do is make sure they've got a similar length crank on their, you know, I don't want to say similar within 2 1/2 mils. We definitely should touch on crank length too, make sure they've got a similar saddle height and that their saddle is flat. So words of the wise, if anyone has their saddle tipped, you're on hiding to nothing because again, if you think about your pelvis from side on, if you're tipping your pelvis, like if you tip your saddle down, you're tipping your pelvis forward again, you're asking your glutes to lengthen and lengthen and lengthen as well as your hamstrings and you're just taking them out of the game again. So have to have a flat saddle so you can then shift forward and back on that saddle with a really stable platform to work, to work on. And you know, Gerry, the other part of the equation, especially for UCI legal guys, is that they don't have a stable base to work from because they're not sitting on much saddle, because everyone's sitting on the very tip of their saddle. And that's, you know, the biggest, I think, argument for the stubby saddle is that you get more support for your sit bones if you're either a stubby saddle or. Can't believe I'm starting a split saddle. And, you know, the reason I'm dirty on split saddles is that anything that isn't fixed by something between those two points is that you always end up with one bent down, one bent up. So if you're going to use an Adamo saddle, you have to replace it regularly. And if you're finding that it's, you know, three or four mils depressed, why are you spending so much time on that cheek? You know, there's got to be something wrong with the position if you're not symmetrical.

So.

And the biggest point of asymmetry is usually that athletes, when they put their cleats on, they basically put them same left, same right, exactly the same point, exactly the same orientation, which is the intuitive thing to do. But people's feet are never the same size. So, you know, your cleats should not. Unless you are a supermodel and you're perfectly symmetrical, which. Well, yes, we all are beautiful people.

We are.

Unless you're that. That sort of person. Well, I guarantee you and people, some people actually don't have never noticed they've got one foot bigger than the other. But usually there's 2 to 4 mils different. And so there should be 2 to 4 mils different in terms of forward aft of your one plate on the other, so that you're then pushing down the same point of each foot equally, and that usually then straightens people up.

When they come in to see you. What are the things that strike you as the most common mistakes that they're presenting to you with that are too high? Right.

So I think this is the most annoying part of my bike fitting is during COVID my wife Ethne, has been working here at the clinic and she walks past every bike fit, says, ah.

Your saddle's a bit high, mate, that's gold.

And you know what? She's actually right. It's even more maddening. But the thing is that I've spoken with about it because I'm so annoyed about it, because it just makes no sense, because then what it does is it pushes people further onto the nose of their saddle and then they can't get best use out of their glutes. So, yeah, it's always saddle too high. That's the most common mistake. And then the second most common mistake is reach too long. So because we've had this rarity or sorry, the COVID overlay has caused people to probably purchase bikes that were available rather than something they've been well fitted on. In the bike shop, a lot of people have bought bikes one size too big. Now you can compensate for that by changing stem length, but you then compensate. You then have to compromise on steering. So if you imagine if you're, you know, the general. I don't have a rule here. You know, the general stem length is say call it a 110. Right. If you then have a bike that's one size too big, well, your equivalent then is you're on a 90 mil stem. And if you're on a 90 mil stem, then every little movement is twitchier. So width of your handlebars makes a difference and length of your stem makes a big difference. So don't compromise on the size of your bike due to availability. You're just better off being on an old bike that fits you than a new bike. You're going to have to then compromise on. You know, I had a guy come in here on a $25,000 custom built bicycle, a parlay 25 grand, and we had to buy a shorter stem for it and had to buy a different seat post for it because it didn't fit in properly. You know, like the bike shop should be doing this right? They should be making sure that it's absolutely right. So I guess to finish off my point on this, if you're not sure about what size size bike you should.

Have.

Do a bike fit before. Like, you know, the reason why we have jigs in the first place where you can just, you know, dial things in and out is so then you don't make a $10,000 mistake and then you have to compromise by having like a short stubby stem on there or even worse, a stem erection where you have to turn the stem upside down. You know, like no one wants that. It just got no panache.

Makes perfect sense. Do you want to, do you want to dive into the cleats more cleats and crank length more? Because I know those points were pretty important ones that you pointed out.

Yeah, I would. So I think the beauty of the shorter crank, as long as it's matched with an intelligent change to the cleat position. So let me just. Here we go. I'll use my stylus for this. I know that everyone not seeing us on the video. But essentially, the shorter your crank gets, then the more your cleat position matters. So essentially, if a cleat. Let's measure like that. So if a cleat is further back, it increases the apparent length of your crank. If the cleat is further forward, it reduces the apparent length of your crank. So if you're running a 165 crank, but you've got your cleats slammed, or you're probably compensating for having the shorter cranks in terms of leverage, but.

You'Re.

Almost certainly to be thinking a lot about your feet and quite extreme because, you know, it's helpful for your hip angle to have a shorter crank. It gives you better clearance. It dictates. So when the crank is vertical, it dictates the amount of hip flexion that you get, as does how low your elbows are. So those two things make such a big difference. And that's why I think, by and large, we've gone to shorter cranks to allow better clearance and get the glutes engaged a bit better.

And you're on board. You're on board with that. You're happy with that development over the last 20 years, that's been a real change because we used to, as a little guy, I was at 170 and I got told by an expert in 1990 something, I should be on 175 just so I could get longer leverage.

Yeah, it's totally changed, hasn't it? And I think it's been dictated to a bit by being able to have. Well, I mean, they're on steel bikes. Back then, you know, the steerers were a lot higher, but I guess, in fact, they were funny bikes. They weren't they, Jerry.

They were 24 inch front wheel.

Yeah.

Don't get out of the saddle.

Or turn.

Yeah. The. You know, and reading all about the. The release of Shimano Dura Ace 12 speed this week, as we've gotten more gears, there's more ability to recruit, you know, better ratios and, you know, the 34 tooth is in the mix, which, you know, you just. You would have been laughed at as a mountain bike racer with a 34 tooth on, but whereas now it's become the norm. In the same vein, in road racing, the shorter cranks means athletes are able to hold, you know, I guess, respectable RPMs to maintain their power on the steep climb. So, you know, like, I can imagine you sting around 175 cranks, Jerry. And, you know, I tried them as well, and I was no good. I ended up on 172.5s and then shortened to 170s for, for my 12 and 24 hour efforts. And look, I think it depends on your foot size too. So because that cleat placement can be so important and I think, because one of the other things that I look at when I look at people's bodies right at the start is that some people have big calves. And I know you do, Gerry. Like you've got big, big calves that like tearing big calves.

It's a Donnelly gene. Yeah.

It'S called, if people want to Google it, it's called pseudo hypertrophy. Anyway, anyway, so I guess if someone's got tiny calves, well, it doesn't really matter if you're doing a lot of mid foot cycling, but on the other hand, yeah, part of the, you know, a good cycling position, you'll see it like people are ankling and you know, you get less ankling the, the more you put the cleat backwards. So. And I think to get the best out of your calves. Well, you don't get anything out of them if you know, you're cycling from the mid foot because obviously it's reducing the leverage of your calves. So it's taking into account this, the. Yes. Somebody's body shape as when you fit them so that, you know, you're not, it's not one size fits all. So, you know, I'm not having people come in and say you should be on 165 cranks because it's not taking into account their risk profile. You know, I've got people who have come in who are 6 foot 6 tall. There's no way I'm going to put them on obviously 165 cranks. But yeah, it's got to be horses for courses. And I think, you know, shortening off your road cranks by 2 and a half mils is a really sensible way to go, but that makes sense to me. And then, you know, if you're really going for a short time trial where you can hold an extreme position, well, maybe you need 165 or 167.5.

You say that, you know, everyone is different and everyone needs their own kind of fit. But you know, you're not going to see that much variety across every athlete. There's going to be a lot of similarities and therefore universal principles that are going to be the same. And so I guess if, if someone's just at home listening and they're thinking, all right, well, I want to check my bike position and see how I am. And obviously getting a bike fit is the best outcome. But if how can someone at home just kind of look at themselves and acknowledge whether they're in a good position, quote or quote unquote, good position or not?

Well, let me just disappoint all the listeners by telling them you're not special. None of you are special. Because I think this is, you know, I don't know if people remember in the Incredibles, which is that Disney movie or maybe in a Pixar movie way back when, but you know, that whole thing that if everyone's special, nobody is. And it's the best truism that I've ever heard because essentially Bruce McAfee will.

Be very upset with you.

Realistically, it's that whole thing that, yeah, common fits commonly fit most people. So essentially you're not an outlier, you're not a unicorn until proven otherwise. And most people fit in the two standard deviations from the mean. So if you really want to do a good job of doing a self fit, my suggestion is, number one, set up your phone on a seat beside your trainer and pedal for 30 seconds in your time trial position, if that's what you're doing, or your row position where your hands are on the hoods. So many people, like, take notice of where your hands sit or how far away they are from the hoods because lots of people are just using the shoulder of the bar 50 mils away from their hoods, which means the bike's too long for you. If you're self selecting that position all the time, the bike's too long or the top, the top tube is too long or you need to short your stem. So it's probably an element of both. So don't oversize your frame. Don't have a stem that's too long. You should be able to just bend your elbows. So get 30 seconds of film from the side and then have a look at it. And your heel should be coming down throughout the 230 till 5:30 zone. If it is coming down, well, you know, you're in a pretty good position. The second way to check, in terms of, I guess, your saddle positions, right, is to look from behind. So you should see there's two bumps which are called your psis, your posterior superior iliac spines. They're little divots you can see on people. Or you can look at the iliac crest, which look like that from behind if they're dead still, your seat's not too high. It still Might be too low, but you'll be able to tell that by having a look at the side. So video from behind. Video from side on tells you all you need to know. And in fact, I had a mate who lives in California who's a triathlon coach wanting me to do bike fits by correspondence, which you can easily do. It's not optimal because obviously you then rely on someone to do the tinkering. And Jano would say from Giant South Yarrow that I shouldn't be doing tinkering either, but I would have the same assertion about him sometimes. So essentially, from the side, from behind, you can get a lot of information that's really useful. And you know what? I think the best way to learn even about your own position is to look at other people and try and take note of what other people look like, try and pick errors in their pedaling style and think, why am I doing that? Because, you know, I guess that's the way that I learned a lot about fitting is just watching people pedal for 20 years in close proximity, you know, and trying to say, oh, that looks funny. Why does it look funny? Oh, it's probably the seats too high. Or why are they looking lopsided? You know, because, for instance, if someone looks lopsided and I change their cleat position, so to make sure that, you know, they're a little bit. They're pushing down from the same part of the cleat of the, sorry, their foot, every now and again, someone will have a leg length discrepancy that needs to be corrected so by a couple of shins. But it doesn't happen commonly. It's usually just the cleats misplaced. So, you know, just look for the big ticket items. Don't come in, don't go and say, oh, I must have one leg along the other. It's probably not that. It's probably just that you got one foot longer than the other.

I was just going to say on that. It's incredible how important the cleats are to each particular person, as you said, because no one's feet are identical. No one's leg length is left and right is the same. And when I changed new shoes and put the old cleats back on and tried to get the exact position that I had previously, that was working for me and thought I was okay and then started writing and all of a sudden had some knee pain and, wow, what's going on? Why have I all of a sudden got knee pain and I didn't even think about you Know, a week later, I just changed cleats. And clearly that was the reason I didn't have the cleats. And they were literally Mitch millimeters wrong. And that's how exact it needs to be, isn't it? Because your body has an adaptation to a position from 30 years of writing, and the minute you move it, it's going to take time or it's going to cause an injury.

Yeah. And I think when you bring up a good point, when someone. If you've got an injury, a cycling injury, take the tape measure to your bike and just make sure. Because, you know. And an allen and a. Sorry, a torque wrench, and just make sure nothing's slipped. Because it just commonly happens that someone will come in, they say they'll stay, oh, I got this injury because my seat post had slipped and I didn't notice for two weeks. And you think, how can you not notice for two weeks? But it's one of those things that it should be your first go to if you feel uncomfortable, make sure all your bolts are tight because it's probably that something's come loose and your saddle's dropped or. Yeah, something's moved. And I guess on that point, one of the other key points that when people come and see me is make sure your bolts have grease on them. You know, it seems like a simple thing to do, but you can't torque something up correctly if it's a dry bolt. So just make sure whenever you're changing something on your bike, use your torque wrench, don't crack a seat post, but also make sure there's some grease in the bolts. Same with your cleats. Like, don't put your cleats on without putting grease on the bolts first because, you know, drilling out a shoe, the worst.

Great advice. I really wanted to clarify one point you touched on before about the heel. As you were indicating the heel position between that real strong range of 230 down to. What was it? 2. Were you indicating that at that at some point the heel would drop below the toes? Um, because I do see variation, even pro cyclists, where their heel is either above or. Or maybe flat or. Or. Yeah. Are you indicating that at some point it would go below for a better position or more power?

So I'm of the belief that common things happen commonly, and I've already pointed that out. So when it comes to talking about unicorns, that is the pro peloton, I don't take my. I do not take what those guys are doing as bread and butter, because, you know, as far as I'm concerned, they're all outliers. They have to be to be in the position they are. You know, if I can look at Lance Armstrong, right, and I know, you know, yes, he was juiced up. So what? Most of them. Most of them were now still. And his position was very towy. Like, you know, he's. He was a really, really towy cyclist in the same way that he was a really high cadence cyclist, you know, well before his time and on probably 175 cranks, Jerry. So we probably don't have excuses. So, you know, when I'm saying that you. I just say your heel should be coming down between 2:30 and say 5 or 5:30. Because what I'm trying to get across is that you want to be doing work on your crank and pushing in the whole way. But if your heels having to come up late in the pedal stroke, well, you're not pushing down hard enough. So essentially your seat's got to be too high. And it might be that it started here, and then it's come to here at the bottom of the pedal stroke and it's still up, but at least it's coming down through the pedal stroke and around that corner. It's probably okay for you. He'll come up a little bit between 5:30 and 6. But realistically, you should. You should be aiming to be in the drive zone. So the way I try and explain it to people, it's like pulling your foot into a gumboot. That's what gets your glutes engaged. And if the heel's not going, like people at home try and turn your glutes on while you're pushing on your toes, it's not impossible. So it's just that whole thing that.

There'S.

PNF patterns, you know, there's this proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation that you do for people to turn on certain muscle groups. And the thing you do to turn on people's glutes is get their. Is get their heels pushing down. It's just. It's a primitive response. So, again, common things happen. Commonly. Yeah, there's some outliers in the bunch.

One of the things that I always was intrigued about was it's a really minor detail, but when you're looking down at your feet and you have the possibility of your shoes and your cleats being close to the cranks or spread apart, is there an optimum or is it particular to each person? And I've always wondered, where should I. You know, and obviously my calves hit the drink bottle if I'm too close to the crank. And I've always wondered, you know, am I better off having my feet wider or.

So. There certainly is a sweet spot, Gerry, you know, one of the reason why. And you're referring to Q angle, which is essentially the angle between the asis, which is the knob of bone at the front of your hips, which runs all the way down the front of your thigh. Sorry, against the line, it runs all the way down the front of your thigh. So it's again, essentially, women who have broader hips have a wider Q angle than men. That doesn't mean, though, that their knees are further apart. So the thing, I generally try to push people's pleats further in and get them further over their big toe. Really big people, I ask them to have the longer spindle pedals so you can add 4 mils on either side with the longest spindle cranks. I think it's. I might be getting this wrong. I think it's 24 mil against 28 mil. It might be. Anyway, some variation, to be honest. It depends also on your injury profile. The thing about people's quads in general, and this is the other thing we sort of half touched on before, because it's not like the glute, where the glute is attached to only across one joint, where your hip joint, whereas your quads are attached above your hip joint and below the knee joint. So you tend to be able to get your quads in range most of the time, or at least part of your quad. So I guess in part your Q angle, you've got four quadriceps. You can engage them most of the time. So, yeah, for you, Jerry, it's just so your calves don't hit your body cage. Me, too.

I just want to pause there for a sec just to ask you, because we'd be going like just over 45 minutes. How long have you got?

Yeah, I've got, yeah, three more minutes. So it's a good time. Yeah.

Okay, good.

I've got a 3:30, so I better scoot up.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad I asked that.

What do you mean, you got a 3:30? If I go there at 3:30, I'm seeing you at 4, so.

Hate to be on time.

We can push it slightly past 3:30 then. Now we'll finish off here. So we've got plenty more questions. We might have to get you back on to answer them. I'm sure the listeners have more as well, but I Can see you've got a lot of thoughts on this. Obviously you've done a lot of bike fits. What do you want the listeners to take home? What's the take home message you want? Because you can get overwhelmed with the amount of small changes you can make and there is a lot we've already spoken about already. So what's the kind of message you want to get out there?

I just say to people that it's not about what your bike looks like. The quip that I always have for people is that when people say I don't like to look at that looks ugly is, you know, people aren't going to notice it when you're passing them because realistically, as long as you're cycling fast like that's panache. That looks good.

Yeah.

If you're cycling well, it's only really you who notices the small variations on your bike or what it might look like. And it's great that you want to like your bike, but realistically it's not the most important thing as long as you're feeling good on the bike. Well, you probably are. You probably are looking good too. So yeah, just worry less about aesthetic and more about what you're actually doing on it. And I think from what I know of all the Donnelly's, that's something that resonates strongly with them. Well, I didn't have an option to look good I guess, but sorry, sorry, I won't. Realistically, a fast cyclist is a good looking cyclist. So just try and be fast, don't try and look fast. You know this is the Go Fast podcast. Yeah, I think it's not the Look Fast podcast. I have to be that guy.

Yeah, right, yeah, correct. Dad, is there anything you want to ask Mitch before we jumped off, before we let him go?

No. Look, I just think the listeners need to understand that the bike fit is so important in, in your outcome as a bike rider. And a really well trained fit athlete who's sitting shockingly aerodynamically and both comfort wise will get a poor outcome as compared to someone who has got everything right, including their training program. And a really good comfortable bike fit will actually have a better outcome. And that's kind of what I think the purpose of getting you on today is to really get that message home, Mitch.

And you know what, Jordan, you're quite right, it's bloody complicated. And so, you know, stick to the meat and vegetable type option, get the main things right first and then worry about spending money on race wheels and bars and all sorts of stuff because Realistically, that's where the good money is, like in being comfortable, because once you've got a position, there's some fiddling that you can do around it. But, yeah, it's the big ticket items that I want people to spend time on because I love people cycling, it's a great sport. So get comfortable on your bike and use some of the tricks that we've given you today. And if you can't, come and see us at Shinbone, love to look after you.

That was going to be my next point is thank you very much for coming on. And if people do want to come, get in contact, either get a bike fit or if they want some help with injury prevention or an injury that they have, how can they get in touch?

You can go and find us at shinboundmedical.com or ring us here on 932-95-5454. No, no, we glad to help anyone out. Doesn't have to be an athlete. And yeah, I think during COVID Oh, so glad I'm ending on this, everyone. I know you're spending a lot more time on your trainers and I know Gerry's probably been pushing this. Make sure you get out of the saddle on a regular basis. Give yourself a rest. Pedalling in the same position over and over and over again for hours and hours, terrible for you. So just regular position changes, please. It will reduce your chance of injury.

Love your work. Mitch, thank you so much for coming on. We can't wait to have you on again as I'm sure the listeners will feel the same. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, Sean.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Thanks, mate.