Dominate Your Race: No Matter Your Ability

You have to have a certain level of experience and a certain level of fitness. So if the more experienced you are as a runner, swimmer, rider, and the better your fitness level, you will have more cards to play.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. We've got an absolutely packed episode today. Off the back of two brilliant guests. We had two of the best thinkers in the world of sports, science, triathlon, cycling and running training in Dr. Steven Seiler and Joe Friel the last two weeks. We absolutely love them. But in the meantime, so much has happened in the world of sports. Today we're going to talk about one of the greatest cyclists of all time has announced his retirements as well as some really breakout performances from young Australian runners. Plenty of things in the world of sports to touch on as well as today's topic, which is how to dominate your local race no matter what your ability, which is really exciting topic because a lot of racing comes down to execution and many things outside of your actual physical ability, which is why it's so exciting to realize that you can do a lot better even if you're not the strongest at athlete. But before we get into that, dad, welcome back to another episode. Let's start with our normal gratitudes.

Yeah, thanks, Jordan. Looking forward to today's episode. And I suppose it's almost a bit of a come down, isn't it, after we've had two of the the world's leading experts in their fields as a scientist and as a coach. Dr. Stephen Seiler as a scientist is he's also got great knowledge in terms of programming, but his, his expertise as a scientist is second to none. And Joe Friel as a triathlete, he's the guru, I suppose. And really I'm excited for today because there's a whole lot of other stuff that we haven't been able to talk about whilst we've got those two great interviews that have just gone. So what's caught my. What's my gratitude? It's a really easy one. I'm super excited because as a cyclic and cycling keen viewer, we've always cherished the spring classics and we've talked about it many times and you know, you and I have just recently entered Gran Fondos, which is the Paris Roubaix and the Tour of Flanders yesterday. And that means that there's only eight weeks to go to those two events which we've got the opportunity and I'm grateful for this because this is the first time since COVID back in 2019 I think is the last time we went as a group and we're going to take another group of 11 like minded cyclists to go and see the pros live at Roubaix and Flanders. And we also get to race those events the day before. So in eight weeks time we are so super pumped to be able to take the guys across and show them, you know, the value and the beautiful roads of Belgium and Flanders and Roubaix and experience those cobbles and yeah. So I'm really grateful that we still get that opportunity again. I thought we wouldn't never have that opportunity again. I didn't know what was going to happen actually. But to, to take a group across and show them and let them experience training on those roads for the, for the week in between. We get there on the Wednesday, this, the first Gran Fondo's on the Saturday Tour of Flanders and then the Tour of Flanders, the pros races on the Sunday. So we get to ride the Quaromont, the Paderberg and the Koppenberg two or three days before our first hit out. So the boys have a real good lead into what those bloody hills are like because they're brutal and they're steep and, and if, if it's wet, you know, it could be anything. So, so it is really exciting and I'm really grateful to have that opportunity. And then we have a training week where we go and ride some more epic climbs that we don't get to do in, in the Tour of Flanders such as the moor of Gerardsbergen which is a, a classic one. And we're going to have a little, a little PB effort up there to see who can, who can be the fastest up there.

And it is, there are some egos on this trip.

It is going to be interesting to see what the Strava file shows because as you know starting 10 or 15 meters back and trying to catch people will get you. If you get there on top equal with someone else you will get the kom.

Don't give away the tactics, dad.

Anyway, so it is interesting because we are talking about that how to dominate your local race. And this is something that we'll be having lots of fun fun in whilst we're doing that training week and just having some fun on those unbelievably beautiful Belgium Roads and you know, regardless of the weather, it will be, it will be fun experiencing it with a great, a group of mates.

That's great. I know why it's your gratitude because we've been doing a lot of organizing just very recently trying to get all the last things done for the trip. We've been thinking about it a lot more, so it's definitely top of mind. And so much so that last night when I was going to bed, I only just remembered this then, but I started thinking about, about Flanders and thinking about Roubaix. And I started to think about entering the famous Arenberg forest. And both times going through there are the scariest moments I've ever had on the bike. And as I was lying in bed, I thought I was falling asleep. And then next thing I knew I was wide awake because a little bit of terror thinking about entering that forest again. And as fun as it is, I kind of was thinking to myself, do I really want to do that again? Is the fun that much worth it? And then I was thinking about just what it must feel like for the pros entering that. And I was trying to think. It was just such a blur last time. Both or last few times. Sorry. It's just I can't even remember entering the forest. The whole thing just happened so quickly. But I started to get a little bit of anxiety just thinking about that roll into you till you hit the shadows, you hit the wet cobblestones. It's. Yeah, it certainly kept me up a little bit last night.

Yeah, look, we, we come from the right, whereas the pros come straight down. So they, they've got flying fair bit of speed up.

I'd forgotten about that.

Yeah. And they're really doing 40, 50Ks an hour. And the guys on the front, I remember, just are flying because they've got to run up. Whereas we come from the right and we hit the cobbles at really low speed, which is kind of good because, because you don't want to hit the cobbles too fast especially. And it's always wet. The cobbles in the forest are always wet compared to the other cobbles. So it's, it's one of those things that, you know, I, I remember the last time we were in, my front wheel buckled, broke two spokes and you know, lucky to not hit the deck. So, you know, we've done it three, four times before and had no issues. And then the last time I did it, I had really real big problems. So anything can happen.

Yeah. Every time I've been through it, someone's crashed next to me, so I hope not to continue that streak and stay on the bike myself. My gratitudes I had a gratitude, which I will mention, but before that we're just thinking about our last two guests. I am really grateful that we got those episodes out because both episodes had severe recording difficulties. We ended up losing a bit of video function. The audio was mostly good, 90% of it. There were some choppy sections, but for a little bit there we thought we'd lost both of those interviews and we thought that, well, on one hand it's great that we got to have the conversation, you and I, because we learned so much, but it was so disappointing to think that potentially our audience might not hear it and so very grateful that the files ended up we ended up being able to get the backup files and we could release them even if they weren't the highest quality we would like Very grateful to be able to get those out. But my original gratitude for today was I'm going to a concert tonight that I've been excited for for months. Seeing this artist, that these are some of the hottest tickets in Melbourne to this gig. It's a very niche kind of gig, but this artist has blown up over the last six months and when the tickets were released he announced a small venue and everyone was quite confused. Why? Because he was starting to really blow up and he put a post out saying there was no other venues available. And so these tickets, you could sell them secondhand for hundreds if not thousand dollars. That's how much people want to see this person. I've been given some very big offers, but I want to see this guy so bad. I go to a lot of gigs and concerts, but I've never been this excited for a gig. So I just absolutely cannot wait for tonight.

That's a great gratitude, Jordan. For those who don't know over the journey, Jordan's been to a lot of festivals, so we're always calling the festival guru here. And I'm always worried that every time you go to a festival or a gig, you end up sick the next the next week. So you have a big race coming up on Saturday, the Melbourne to Warnie, and I'm just putting it out there live on the podcast. You better not end up sick after.

This gig, especially in an enclosed tight area. But it's all about balance, dad. That's what that's the message we want from I know.

I want you out there having fun. Don't you worry about that. But I don't know, the timing could not Be worse.

I reckon I did think about that before mentioning on the podcast, but that's the gratitude for today. So, moving on to what has caught our attention. There are a few key things that have happened, but the first one we want to mention is the retirement of one of our favorite cyclists. One of the most enjoyable cyclists to watch over the last decade or so, and that is Peter Sagan. And I just want to run through some stats of Peter Sagan's career and just to paint the picture of how good a cyclist he really was. Over his tenure, he has 121 professional cycling wins, 289 podiums. That's a combined total of over 400 first, second or third places. He has won 12.6% of races he has entered, which is just absolutely astonishing. He's won seven Tour de France green jersey titles. That's seven. He's won 18 Grand Tour stages, including 12 Tour de France stages. He's won Tour of Flanders, Paris, Roubaix as well as a bunch of other classics. I think it's one of the most outrageous stats I saw was he's come top 10 in 46 or 48% of races he's entered. World champion three times. Just an absolutely phenomenal all round athlete and he will go down as one of the greatest all round athletes. Just hats off to him. What a phenomenal rider, what a very enjoyable character and rider and what a career it's been.

I've got to say it's a great. What's caught my attention because I have been a Peter Sagan fan ever since he, he started racing. His attitude is what I really like. He, he will do anything to make sure that he gets the best opportunity. It's ironic. We're going to talk about how to dominate racing and he's just the epitome of that. He has dominated most races that he's ever entered. And to have a statistic that you'd finished in the top 10 and 50% of the event you're in. And look, I did see a stat where he had come second almost equal to the amount of times that he'd won. And so, you know, not only is he a chance every time he races to win, but he's on the podium. If he doesn't win, he's either second or third. And how many times did you say he'd won in his pro career?

120.

121. So he'd come second equal amount of times. And that just shows you how much of the time he is involved in the outcome of the race. And he has dominated cycling at that level and it's not just in one genre. He's winning the green jersey at the Tour de France. He's winning stage races one day races at the Classics. He's world champion, which is a one off, you know, stage, stage race really like he's just, he's just an all rounder and, and his willingness to put himself out there and, and, and not, not win events is what I loved about his style of racing. I will never forget in one of those Tour stages in the Tour de France when I think it was Chris Froome, him and, and two domestiques for both teams in a crosswind, they just attacked the Tour de France and we just don't see that happening. And that was one of the best stages I can ever remember. I mean there's been a lot of great stages over the journey but boy, was that, was that about taking your opportunities by the scruff of the neck and, and I can't remember the outcome. I don't have a memory like Matt Keenan who can just rattle off. But I think they stayed away.

Yeah, yeah. And he won the stage.

Yes. And, and Chris Froome ended up getting time on his, on the other GC contenders. So both, there was a win, win for both of them and the two riders from their teams just turned themselves inside out on that stage to help those two guys get the outcome they needed. And that's a, that's an example of the things that he's willing to do and you know, that could have blown up in his face and he could have got nothing out of that and lost time. But, but I just love the way he races. He's just willing to risk everything to get an outcome. There's a positive outcome. So that's what I'm most excited about and his career and his journey and it's going to be a sad day to see a guy like that leave the peloton. We have got a good, some good replacements in, you know, Remco Evenepoel. I think he's a very similar rider. Probably not as good a sprinter as Sagan is, but Sagan reminds me of Woot van Aert because he can climb, he can time trial and he can win classics and he can win sprints at, you know, he won champs, a lay champs, lose a stage win in the Tour de France. So you know, there are guys who are probably going to be filling his shoes but boy, he was a one off.

Yeah, this is our, this is our tribute to him. And he is the epitome of one of the biggest messages you promote on this podcast, and that is you've got to be willing to risk it and be willing to give it a crack to get a good result. And the more you just hide in the bunch, the more you just don't give it a crack, the less chance you have. Of course, it's that cliche quote. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And no one remembers the fact that he came second or third 290 times. Everyone just remembers him. For every single win, he would remember those ones where he might have stuffed those up. He gave it a crack and came second or third. He stuffed up his sprint. He didn't make the break, or he stuffed up a move late in the race, or all those times he might have really gone for it and finished outside the top 10. Yet because he just continuously had that attitude. He really was finished with such a decorated career.

And Jordan, that's probably one of the things we should point out is the reason he won so many times is because he came second and third so many times. He learned lessons from those losses and then turned them into victories. And if you've got that many near misses and you're doing a lot of things right, it's just getting that thing that you got wrong right, and then that turns into a victory. And everybody out there needs to remember that, you know, that you're going to learn more from making mistakes and having a go and getting it wrong, because they're lessons you learn. I'm not going to do that next time. I'm not going to start my sprint too early. I'm not going to attack at the wrong part of the. I'm not going to lead people out. I'm going to make better decisions and be a smarter writer. And that's probably what our topic is anyway today, so we should move on.

Yeah, well, there's a few more things that have caught our attention that we really wanted to touch on, and one of them is a big coaching tip that you've just seen a lot of recently, and that is course selection in training. And this is just a really big coaching thing you want to mention because it comes up with a lot of.

Yeah, look, there's so many things about this course selection. And, you know, if. If you're wanting to be specific in your. In your training sessions that are directly relatable to what the specific requirements are of your race, then the course selection is really important. But it's also important to get the actual session done correctly. So there's two things there. There's. There's getting specific course selections that replicate what's going to happen on race day. And there's also. And we can talk about that in the. In the actual topic, I think, but also the selection of the terrain or the course that you're using if you're training outdoors. So that's why probably the indoor trainer has got a lot of positives about it, because it eliminates those issues where you've got a course that's not really suitable outdoors. For example, if you're doing a VO2 set, and you know, I could use any of the 60, 30s, 40, 20s or 3015 repeated reps that you're doing three sets of, if you've selected a course outdoors that a has a traffic light in the middle of it, has a roundabout or has a downhill or has a tailwind, it's near impossible to push the power at 120 to 140%, which is what VO2, 40 seconds on or 30 seconds on or 60 seconds on is, or even two minutes. If you're going downhill or you get in the middle of a traffic light or a roundabout, you have to drop the power or stop the power or can't push the power because of the downhill or the tailwind, then you're not going to get to 120 or 140% power effort because of the course, which.

Means you're not going to get. You're not going to get the training benefit.

That's right, the training benefits gone. And also, you know, if you've done six out of 10 efforts, and then all of a sudden you come to a traffic light, that main set of those 10 efforts, and you might do three sets of those 10 efforts, you've already had an interruption, which gives you recovery. And once you've recovered, your lactate levels are low, your heart rate's dropped, and you've actually lost the value of the VO2 set. So course selection is crucial. And if you end up doing that, when we're trying to stimulate the cardiovascular system, and not so much the strength effort, it's a high cadence session. And if you find yourself going up a steep hill, it now turns into. And you can't ride higher than 70 RPM, you're actually not getting the value of the cardiovascular session from that particular effort. So there's so many nuances that can be detrimental to the outcome of the session. If you don't select an appropriate course for the session you're doing and I'll just pick VO2 there. You could also use this on your. Say you're doing sweet spot or sub threshold or race ready. The terms that we use in our training program where you're trying to replicate a 70.33 by 30 minute effort at 80 to 90%. And if you all of a sudden find yourself going downhill for five minutes, there's no way you can ride at 80 or 90%. And if you find yourself doing, you know, one, one section of a course where it's, it's got too much uphill, then all of a sudden it goes for five minutes downhill and then it goes uphill again for, for 15 minutes and you're not, you're not getting the same replication of what's going to happen in your race. So you want to look at what your race is, the course gradient or course profile of your actual race and try and replicate that in your training course selection. Try to find that. And living in the city is not easy to do that. So what's caught my attention about that is you need to be willing to go out of your comfort zone. I've just used bike there for an example. If you live and you're a triathlete and you live in the city and there's no hill near where you live, say you live in, for example, Melbourne, you live in St Kilda and there's no hill outside your front door for 15k, you need to get in the car and drive to wherever that hill is and that'll make that cork selection where the hills are, what you're trying to find worthwhile. But if you just keep doing those undulating endurance runs on a flat course, you're still getting the endurance factor, but you're not getting the undulating factor. So there's two factors to that undulating endurance run and that's hill strength and, and the endurance component. So yes, you're ticking off one, but you're missing out on the valuable. So therefore the outcome is being compromised again. So course selection for a runner. You could talk about cyclists and you can talk about swimmers as well as individual sports. If you're trying to prepare for an ironman, that's going to be in a lake and you've only swam in ocean where it's salty. In a lake, you've got no salt water, so therefore you're not going to have the same buoyancy. So I would be seeking out a swim venue that has only fresh water in it, so that I'm not getting that lack of specificity in course selection. So that's kind of, I hope that makes sense. What I'm trying to say here. It's really important that you think about having to go out of your comfort zone to get the value from the session outcomes that you're trying to achieve. And that can be a pain in the neck having to get in your car and drive. A lot of people, I've talked about this on, on our private coaching calls with people where I've said to them I'm willing to drive 50 minutes to go to a riding course. That's going to be close to what I want to replicate, you know, in my session. And that's a big effort and a lot of time. So I'm getting up at 4:30 to get to a venue at quarter to six to start that ride. So I'm getting up an hour and a half earlier just to make sure I'm getting there in, you know, early so that the traffic's lesson and get to the start of that course where I know that I've got less chances of traffic lights being pushed for pedestrians etc, etc. So there's so many nuances there. I just want to briefly touch on that in what's caught your attention?

Yeah, down to the minute detail. It's, it's really important to get that specificity correct. I did put, I just did want to tell this story. I just found this hilarious this thing that happened. And if you're a runner you'll, you'll understand this. And this is a warning out there to any runners that are completing interval sessions. And if you are completing an interval session, you will probably do the same strategy where you do your warm up in your standard trainers, do your warm up drills and then it's very common for runners to then change into their faster shoes for their intervals. This doesn't always happen, but it is quite common. And when you're out at a park or doing your intervals somewhere, if you can, you might leave your shoes in your car. But if not, if you're out somewhere where your car's not accessible to the intervals you're doing, often I'll leave my shoes behind a sign or in a bush or something next to the path. And never in my entire life have I had anything stolen before, which is a big trust in society. And I have probably left my shoes out in maybe two public places which are too trusting. But earlier this year I came back, I went out for my interval, three minutes out and had the rest up there. Then three Minutes back and halfway through my session I came back and my shoes were gone and there was a, a person near me and he was acting a little bit crazy and no judgment on, on what's going on in his life. But I knew we looked at each other and I knew that he had my shoes and I think he knew that I knew he had his shoes. And he was almost looking at me like what are you going to do about it? I just thought I'm leaving this. He's. My trainers are gone which is very disappointing but, but I can go get another pair, you know, but I just thought that has never happened to me in my life. And then I spoke to another runner last week and they said you would not believe what happened to me this week. I went and did my interval sessions and this person did it out in the country on a very quiet back road. They said they saw a minimum few cars for the entire session. They were doing the same sort of efforts out and back and they came back and found that their shoes were gone. And so unfortunately for all runners it seems like shoe stealing is becoming a little bit more common. And I just found, when she told me that I just laughed out loud. I thought that's never happened to me either in my life. And now I've heard two accounts very recently of this happening. I guess a warning out there for all runners if you're, if you're changing shoes and especially with the new carbon fiber shoe options. Yeah it is a warning to just look, we don't want to distrust society. It's happened once in 30 years. But at the same time I just found it pretty funny that it's happened twice now. And yeah for any runners out there, maybe just think twice about where you're leaving them. One more thing we wanted to mention before we move on to the main topic is an Aussie young 16 year old kid last week just broke the Australian 1500 meter record and was 0.9 seconds off breaking the under 18 world record. And that world record in under 18s is held by none other than the greatest 1500 meter runner at the moment in Jakob Ingebridson. And so this 16 year old Australian has ran 340.8 or something and the under 18 world record is 339.9. So that is blistering time for the 1500 as a 16 year old. But that is so exciting. He did a local certified Vic Mylers meet. It was very exciting to see. There was a lot of talk about it but that basically makes him One of the fastest 16 year old kids in the world at the moment. And if he continues the same path as Inger Britzen, he's, he's going a good way. He comes from the Telford training group who have produced some great performances over the last few years rivaling some of the top performances from some of our best athletic clubs in Australia. So that was just super exciting to see and I really wanted to mention that.

Yeah, it's a great point Jordan. And one of the things that I'm, you know, I should be putting my gratitude is the Milers club is just such a phenomenal, fast growing, what would we call it? It's an event. So for those who don't know what it is in Melbourne in particular they have the Milers Club or it used to be called PB Meets think originally and what it means is you can go on any given night to a venue and enter an 800 or a 1500 or a mile or whatever the event is that they've got on for that night and it's just one or two events for the night and they might have eight hundreds and they'll have divisions for male and female down from a grade B, grade C grade all the way through to whoever wants to enter. And you put in your PB time and they'll sit you, slot you in to the race that's suitable to. So if you're a 2 minute 30, 800 meter runner they'll put you in a, in a heat that is all 2 minute 30 runners. If you're a 159 runner they'll put you in a heat that's all 158 to 2 minute runners etc, etc so it gives you an opportunity just to run against other runners who had got the same goal which is to do a PB on that night. And you're all trying to help each other basically run fast. So it's not really a tactical race, it's really. Oh there is tactic in it obviously and execution but everybody in that race is trying to do a PB which is such a great concept and, and I think it's on once a month. Is it Jord?

Yeah, once a month they run it and during summer. Summer, yep.

And, and now they're getting those, those, they're packed those events. You know, it's just growing and people are coming from all over country, Victoria to run in there and now we're getting results where you know the example you just gave was he's a 16 year old kid who has an opportunity to run in a race and go for a pb. And far out, he nearly broke the world record.

It's unreal. But yeah, that's enough for what's caught our attention. Just so many exciting things happening in sport that we love to chat about. But let's get into today's topic, which is how to dominate your local race, no matter what your ability. And any race at local level is really about execution and who has the best plan. And there is obviously ability involved. But we want to show you how you can get better results, especially those around you that might have higher ability. And this is so true in any sport, including triathlon, which is such about individual execution, but specifically in cycling as well, where. Or a running race where with cycling it's so much about tactics and the strongest rider basically doesn't win most of the time. So we don't want to exclude any runners or triathletes here because we want to talk about tactics in any running races, park runs, 5Ks, 10Ks, half marathons or marathons, tries, and then also get cycling specific. But where do you want to start, dad, with this? Where do you want to lead people off?

Well, our topic is really how to dominate. So there's two things I want to say. You have to have a certain level of experience and a certain level of fitness. So the more experienced you are as a runner, swimmer, rider, and the better your fitness level, you will have more cards to play. So we're talking about people who are. It doesn't matter if we select a crit race, for example, where it's graded, so you could be in D grade in your local club and you've got a level of fitness and a level of experience. And those two things were going to really determine the outcome of the event on that day. And if I take you for an example, you fronted up for your first two crit races in the last month in your cycling career and you have basically zero experience in crit racing and you have a great level of fitness. So we've got someone who's got poor tactics from experience. You've got the information in your mind, but you've never actually had to implement it in a race situation. So you know what to do, but you've never had to practice that in real life, but you've got really good fitness level. I'm in that same race as you and I'm giving an example. I've got thousands of crit races under my belt as experience. And compared to your fitness level, I'm probably 50% at where you are in fitness level as a 64 year old compared to a 30 year old. So. So I'm coming into it with completely different tactics for that event compared to what you have. So this is an example where we're trying to explain to people that it's just not about being the fastest or strongest. I can still be with you in that race and I was with you in that race until it really got a fitness point of the race where I wasn't capable of getting in the break with you because my fitness let me down. I knew the brake was forming, but I had no ability to respond to that level of fitness. I was willing to do it, but I knew that I just couldn't because I wasn't strong enough. But I could see the move happening and that was the time to go. I knew that was going to be the winning move. With the break forming and so me getting myself to a position where I'm protecting myself, I'm positioning myself in the race to never be in the wind, I'm just trying to save my one and only possible move to get in the break. But when it comes to that time where the brake forms, the race is on its, you know, on its most intense period. And that's where brakes will normally form. And if you are not in the right position or don't see it coming, you will miss the break. And thirdly, if you don't have the ability, you'll miss the break. So there's three things happening there, you know, protecting yourself so you're ready for it, understanding when it happens and then having the ability to make the move. So I suppose that's where I want to start and to make sure that people understand that it's not always about the strongest will win, because in bike racing that should play out, but nine times out of ten, it actually doesn't. But there are lots of examples of, from elite down to club racing, where eventually the strongest person should actually be in the best position to dictate the outcome of the event. And you found yourself making decisions because of lack of experience in that, in that particular criterion that we were talking about a couple of weeks ago in the break and feeling quite good and making moves that you weren't sure about, but you had a crack anyway and you know, you ended up breaking away from the break and being solo for a period near the, near the final of the actual event and you know, knowing when the bell was going to ring. And of course, you know, it is an hour plus, plus a lap, but they ring the bell at 55 minutes. That throws confusion into the, into the tactics of people who are waiting for the bell, you know, another lap or two later. So lots of things happen and decisions get made and, and as you, you'll explain probably yourself, it's split decisions that you have to make on the fly that will determine how the outcome of the race evolves. And, and you decided not to have a go solo when you sat up and let the, the bunch catch you when in fact the bell rang. You could have had. You've known that the bell was going to be ringing, then had a go and tried to stay out. You may have got gobbled up, but you were still going to do better than what happened to you, which was get gobbled up and come nowhere in the sprint. So you know, the Jens Voigt theory is I've got no chance of winning the sprint because I'm not a sprinter. I've got 1% chance of winning in a break. I'm going to take the 1% chance over the 0% chance. And you know, in hindsight it's easy for us to evaluate your post race analysis and say you should have stayed out there but, but you didn't know that that was going to be the bell lap. But that's just an example of how you've got great fitness in that bunch. In the breakaway bunch probably equal to anybody. But you got no outcome because it ended up being a bunch sprint with the breakaway bunch. Yeah.

Based on our principle that we spoke about with Peter Sagan. It's kind of disappointing to not do what we say and not have that crack. You know, we'd say, we'd say Peter Sagan or Jens Void be disappointed because when you're out there that's the time when you just, no matter what the odds are, if you're in that position, you've just gotta, in hindsight I realize that you've just gotta have that crack and being out there already and, and putting in an effort to get away and then easing up was just such a small chance of, of getting a good result after that because you know, legs are already done from, from being out there. So that was my specific example. But I guess it leads to a broader rule of. This is, and you spoke to me about this off air, but basically in any race you want athletes to, you're asking them to be as mentally exhausted from decision making and concentration as physically exhausted. And that is how you really do well in a race. Because the concentration levels are so high you're always thinking and you can make the best decisions and be really smart about how you go about things.

Yep. And look the number one thing you've. And I've really learned this in the last year or two. I think as I've. As my, my, my fitness level compared to the people I'm racing against is progressively diminishing. I've had to use more tactics and positioning is one of those to enable me to stay more as competitive as I want to be. So I'm saying to people who have got unbelievably good fitness, act as if you have zero fitness. And that's kind of where I'm coming from. Now my fitness is not as good as yours so I have to play some other cards which is positioning myself and conserving. The two key things that I can do I have control over is where I position myself and how much I'm conserving my energies for when it counts. And if I'm an athlete who's got so much fitness levels, my fitness is equal to anybody else in the race. I can be blase about mistakes I make because I can recover enough to go again whereas if, if I'm in my position where I, if I make one mistake I'm going to get dropped. So that's what I'm trying to say. Act as if you have no fitness and, and position yourself so you're not burning matches and conserve every single what that you can until it matters when the break is going to form or you're wanting to attack the race. So that's what I want to get across to people and I see people with unbelievable physical fitness attributes with shocking positioning and shocking conservation of their. The matches that we have are only two or three and you need to be vigilant about. I'm not going to waste my efforts on things that are a waste of time. And how do you know that? Well, you don't really but if you know the field that you're racing against you you should do your homework from maybe if it's your first race you've got no chance. But if you've done a season of racing or you've done four or five in your local club races, find out in your D grade race who won last week or who was second and third and identify them next week. When you start the race are they there this next week and then watch what they're doing. Was it just a sit on sprint finish or was there lots of brakes going up the road? Learn from what you did the previous week. Understand who you're racing against by seeing who won the previous week. And these are all things that you can take note. And that's what preparation is, understanding who the people. And I said to you when you first raced, these are the people you should keep your eye on because they regularly get in the break and they regularly win. You should get yourself positioned behind those three or four people. I told you those people and I pointed them out to you before the race started. So you had a clear tactic of well, these guys are generally winning or generally in the break and I need to, whatever they do, I need to be ready for the moves that they're going to make. So they're examples of things you can do to help yourself be more prepared for when it's important to do something in your race.

So you keep using the word position properly. What does that mean? Where should you be positioning yourself in a race?

Let's just keep using the crit example. And it's different for road racing. But some of the tactics are similar in road racing to crit racing and I want to differentiate, if you can remind me. But in a crit race, generally it's a short circuit that might be 1k round and if it's longer than that it's really called a kermise which is the difference between critique and road racing is just the distance or the circuit size is different. A road race can be a 30 lap loop or out and back kermesse can be the same. A crit race is generally really short, short punchy circuit where you're out of corners. Skill cornering and out of corners is a real tactic that you need to be good at. Whereas a kermes and we've got a circuit that Sandown which is probably 3k round and that's more a kermesse circuit where it's a lap that's not got a lot of tight corners. It's got one tight corner, but the rest of it's quite, quite easy. For skill levels there is a downhill sharp left hander that you have to have some good cornering ability and then ability to get out of your seat and bridge gaps. So the actual specifics of a crit race are really all about positioning yourself not in the first three or four and being a sitting duck. Why? Because the big hitters are sitting somewhere between 8th and 20th and they're also sitting on the opposite side to which the wind is coming. So you'll never see the guys who win the race sitting in the wind on the wrong side of the bunch. So if the bunch is going up a straight bit of road and the wind is coming from the right, all the good guys will be on the left hand side with as many riders between them and the wind as possible. So that's positioning for the wind, positioning for where you are in the field. So if there's a field of 40, you don't want to be in the last five, 10, because if there are accelerations, it's like a whip effect at the back. You know, the guys at the front have accelerated hard because they've chased down a brake and the guys at the back forever trying to accelerate to catch up when everybody else has already accelerated and you've got five second lag. And so you could be having a situation where there's a 5 meter gap and you're actually in your own wind because the lag has taken so long to filter down through the field that there's gaps forming and you could be exposed to the wind yourself and you might have to do 700 watts. Whereas the guy who's in 8th or 10th position, he just spins his legs up to close the gap at 4 or 500 watts. So there's already a difference of power being pushed by being in the wrong position. If you're also sitting first, second, third, you are probably going to be in more wind than the guy sitting seventh, eighth, ninth, because you will end up being on the front at some point. My tactic over the years has been I never want to be on the front unless I'm in a breakaway and I have to be on the front to roll turns with my, with my breakaway teammates or five meters before the finish. That's when I want to be on the front when I'm going to about to win the race. So the only other time is if I want to break away myself solo. So there's four reasons why you would be on the front. But if you've got a bunch of 40 or 50 people behind you and I see one of you got my trivelo guys on the front, I'll be asking what the hell are you doing? But there could be a valid reason you could be trying. If the brakes gone up the road and the bunch is not trying to bridge the gap, then sure get something out of the crit race. Start rolling turns. So be on the front. So there would be reasons why. But if you're trying to win the race, you don't want to be in that first, second, third position because you can't see what's coming from behind, so you could be riding and rolling turns on the front with 40 people behind you and the pressure's on and people are really struggling. You've got a climb or a headwind. All of a sudden this is the time when the big hitters will say, right, the bunch is struggling. This is the time to attack the bunch. And so therefore you can't see that coming unless you've got eyes in the back of your head or someone yells out, guys are attacking down the right hand side of the road. And on the course that I'm talking about, we have open road in this, it's a closed circuit. So we're not out on the road where you can't be on the other side of the road. But in a road race, you only have half the road. That white line you can't cross, otherwise you'll be disqualified. So I'm talking about a crit where it's a closed road and normally the people who are going to attack, they attack on the other side side of the road where there's a gap that you have to bridge from one side of the road to the other, and there's wind in between the two, the two attacking bunches. So they're examples of not seeing what's coming and having to respond and push big power to bridge gaps. Whereas if you're sitting behind those big hitters, you're just following the wheel and you're getting a free ride. And you did that beautifully. One of the guys who did attack Jack in the bunch, you were right on his wheel. I looked across, he was attacking it at 2 or 3 kilometers an hour faster than what the bunch was riding. And you were right on the wheel. And that was beautifully done. And that's an example of you taking the information, follow that guy whenever he attacks, go with him. And you were ready for it. And that's what I'm trying to say here. And the guys who are sitting first, second, third, fourth, they had to get out of their seat and push 5 or 600 watts burn one match, match to bridge across to you who were sitting at 300 watts on the wheel of some guy who's attacking. Does that make sense, what I'm saying about positioning?

It does. There's just so many nuances to it. And I guess if you're thinking about the different examples you gave, you know, you said the big hitters are sitting between 8th and 20th. How much does that differ between the type of race crit or up to road race? Does it really matter whether you're 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th compared to 15th, 16th, 17th, how does that come into great, great question.

And look, if we're doing a hot dog circuit where you're just going straight down maybe 400 meters and you do a complete 180 degree turn and then you come back up 400 meters and do a complete 180 degree turn positioning in that race, if you're down the back, you're gonna get dropped. And I've watched we have the Baycrit series here down at Geelong and that hot dog circuit is exactly that circuit. And, and the guys who are sitting, say there might be 60 in that field. The guys who are coming into the corner, and the guys have already come out of the corner who are at the front, they've already accelerated. These guys are decelerating when they come into the corner and there's about a 10 second lag and one by one all those guys at the back get dropped off. At the elite level, they're all equally elite as the guys at the front. They're all the same fitness level. There's no difference. It's just their positioning is causing them to get dropped because of that, that lag effect and the whipping around the corner. So in a crit hot dog circuit, you need to be in the first 10 to 15 so that you don't have that ripple lag effect. And in a bigger crit circuit where you don't have that 180 degree turn, accelerate flat out out of the corner, it's not such a bad position to be 10th or 20th in a, in a crit circuit that's bigger. But the hot dog circuit, you can't afford to be that far back back. So each circuit and the road race, you know, the, the effect is so much different because you're, you're really probably doing 30k in a row out in one direction. So there's always opportunities to move. But the one thing I will say is when you come to a hill or, or a crosswind section, the further back you are in a road race, then the worse you're going to find that position for your, for your overall best outcome. So if you're coming to a hill and you know that your weakness is the hill climb or you know your strength is the hill climb, you'll be less, less worried. You could be in at the base of the hill, you could be anywhere from 6 to 10th. But if I know that I'm weak on that hill and I've got a possibility of being dropped, I'm going to be second. Or third wheel so that by the time I get to the say it's a 10 minute climb by the time we get to the top of the hill, the 50 people in the ride, I could be 50th by the time we get to the top of the hill because I'm we at the climb, start third, end up 50th. If I start 50th, I'm going to end up 150 meters off the back by the time we get to the top of the hill. If I start third, I'm still in contact with a bunch by the time I get to the top of the hill. So that's an example in a road race where positioning you need to change position when you know there's a hill coming. The second thing is, if you know the road is going straight, the wind's coming from the right and you're sitting nicely on the left hand side of the bunch, getting protected from the wind in a road race or a crit or a kermese, it doesn't matter. And all of a sudden you turn right, then the wind is still coming from that right direction. You turn right. Now you're on the wrong side of the bunch in the wind. And it could be a crosswind. Now instead of a cross headwind, it's now full on crosswind. You're on the right hand side of the bunch, you are in the wind. So you are going to be spat out within the next two or three minutes unless you change position. And that will be single file. You've seen it echeloning in the Tour de France, up the road, four or five echelons, the guys who are sitting on the back of the first echelon who are single file and not in the echelon but a single file. They are World Tour riders. Elite have got the same ability of the guys in the in the echelon, but they're getting dropped. Why? Because they're in the wind. And so they're examples of the fitness level is the same, but your positioning is going to determine whether you're going to stay with the bunch or get dropped. So if you know that in 1km we're going to turn right and it's going to be a crosswind, what should you be doing? You should be moving from that right hand side to the middle of the bunch. And just before you turn right, you should be be in the gutter on the right hand side of the road so that when you turn the corner you've still got people between you and the wind. So that takes a lot of balls to keep moving position from the far right to the middle, to the far, far left. Sorry, to the middle, to the far right of the group before a turn comes. And that's also knowing the course and knowing where the wind's coming from. So there's a whole lot of things that you have to be thinking about. Which brings me back to your original sentence. You need to be so exhausted from the mental strain that you've put yourself under as much as you are from the physical strain. If you're not thinking about where's the next hill, where's the next turn, where's the wind coming from, how far back am I? You should be running those things over your head. And every 30 or 40 seconds am I in 10th, 15th position? Look up to see where the front guys are. Holy crap. I'm now in 30th position because people have come from the outside to the front and that's pushed me back. So you need to keep thinking where am I? And keep. If you're not moving forward, as a saying, if you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards because people move from the outside to get better position and force the people who are in the middle of the bunch back. And that's just normal selection. So you've got to all the time and be continually moving yourself through the field to be anywhere from that fifth or maybe probably eighth to 20th wheel. You're going to be tested by this. For those who don't know, there's the Melbourne to warning. We have talked about it. The Melbourne to warrnambool. It's a 270 kilometer one day road race and it's got the elite riders of Australia in it, the NRS riders, the National Road Series riders and. And other riders can enter as well, like yourself, who aren't in the nrs. So you're going to be really tested with your positioning. You know that you're reasonably fit to be able to keep up with this level of bike riding. But if you don't position yourself so that you're protected and saving your energy, saving your power and moving positions and thinking about how you're pedaling, where are you in the pack? Are you 80th? Because there's probably going to be 120 riders is in this pack in this peloton, am I 80th and is it going to turn right in a minute? Is it going to be single file and I'm going to be just dropped like a sack of potatoes? If I'm not sitting properly, this is going to be enormously taxing and stressful because you know that I'm going to be drumming into you the mental side of where am I in terms of my position? And so your whole job is to keep moving and understanding what's going to happen in five minutes where the next hill is. And so you need to really look at the course profile in detail and understand and even write it on your head stem on your handlebars. You know, where is the first hill? Check out the wind that's going to be on that race day. We know that it's going to be a southwesterly, which is pretty much across headwind, and then in the middle of the day, it's going to turn direct west, which will be total crosswind for the majority of the ride. So, but that course, that ride course changes direction probably 50 times to the right, to the left, uphill, downhill, right turn, left turn. So, you know, you understand what I'm talking about. Position. You know, one minute you're in a good position, then the course direction changes and now you're in a bad position. So forever you're going to have to keep thinking about what to do about that. So I'm giving the listeners a real understanding of what my discussion with the team will be about their positioning for this upcoming race. And, you know, I always use the term, if I see you in the wrong position, you don't do anything about it. When we finish this event, don't come near me with, I don't know what happened, you know, because I'll be whacking you over the back with a cricket bat, saying, what were you thinking sitting there? You know, the only thing, the only outcome that could possibly happen is that you're going to get dropped. And we see it in World Tour riders getting dropped when it's single file across wind. So these are things that will definitely decide the outcome of the event. Of course you have to be fit and prepared. Of course, you have to be that level of standard. You can be as fit and prepared as you like, but if you position yourself poorly throughout this race, you'll only have one outcome, and that is eventually being dropped.

That brings us to the final point we want to finish on. And the key words you use a lot throughout that explanation was conserving and saving. And that's kind of how you can universally dominate any race. Not just a crit race or a road race, but a try or a run. The athlete that's the most patient and you talk about this and just keep saving energy means the closer you get to the finish, the more cards you have to play and the more moves you can make. Because you've been the patient one and you've saved energy.

If you use the analogy of a bucket of water and you've got that bucket of water full of water right to the top, if you early on in the race use 3/4 of that water, then for the rest of the race you've only got a quarter left. And if we use that as energy or power or whatever you want, heart rate. If you're forever keeping that bucket of water as close to the top as possible for when it counts and only use that water when you need to and measure your efforts from if it's a half Ironman or a 260 kilometer Melbourne to Warrnambool or a 20 minute FTP, you need to measure your water consumption. I'm not talking about fueling here, I'm using the analogy of water. The bucket full of water. If you get to the end of that 270 kilometer Melbourne to Warrnambool and you have only the bottom of that bucket of water left, and you haven't, you know, you've done that slowly and progressively the whole way through the ride. And when you've needed to push the power and stay with the bonnet, you've, you've used more. But if you've measured that effort the whole way through and conserved when you need to, you will get to the finish as strong. And, and that's the difference between the, the pro riders at, at the, at the World Tour level. They're all very fit. We did not see Simon Clark or Michael Matthews near the front at the Australian Road Nationals titles or, or Luke Plapp, the eventual winner. So that was first, second and third and, and they measured their efforts from start to finish. They got all their other riders to do all the work for them and they just hit in the bunch. And when it counted on the last lap, that's when they all of a sudden came to light. And that's conserving at the highest level. And as a triathlete you want to do the same thing. You don't want to start the swim smashing yourself and putting your heart rate through the ringer. You don't want to get on the bike and riding 50 watts higher than you're going to do for the average for the whole bike ride. You don't want to get off and run the first K or first 5K as your PB. You want to measure your effort and conserve so that you get to the end having, you know, use the same amount of energy throughout the event and have spikes where it's important. In cycling that's a lot. But in triathlon it's not in road running or 5K or marathon running there's no spikes. It's a measured even and expenditure. But cycling has different, different requirements and that's what we spent the most of time on. But this does, conserving does really benefit any sport. And you know, you've, you've, you know we talk about so many people just making sure they've got enough for when it counts and you know, we haven't talked about Simon Clark, but he's unbelievable at this. You know, guy who didn't even have a contract two years ago, comes out and wins a stage at the Tour de France. He's always in the top 10 in any Classics. Comes out and comes third at the Road Nationals, comes out and comes second at the Cadell Evans event. You know, he is the king of just positioning, conserving and using his energy. He's the ultimate smart tactician. He's got the power and the physical ability but he's so much smarter than anybody else that you know, he's got the tactics of a Sagan but probably doesn't have the same ability as a Sagan, the all rounder. But boy, he's made the most of his strengths and he's an example of what we're talking about.

People hearing this want to know that if they do these tactics of conserving properly and positioning well that they can actually get a good result even if they're not the strongest athletes. Athlete.

Yeah, we've got, we've got thousands of examples of people who, who are not the strongest and yet they've really listened to the tactics and so, so you, you conserving, you positioning yourself, you're saving so much of your energy levels for when it counts. And the person who's got, you know, so much fitness to burn, they're not worried about the that and they're the people who are going to possibly not get the best outcome. So the people who are conserving and positioning themselves so they're not in the wind, not burning matches, not getting gaps, not being single file in a crosswind and being exposed and possibly getting dropped. If you do that well, you give yourself more chance than the person who just continually burns all of their energy levels for when the kids key parts of the race come. And so, you know, if I'm in A race with you and I've got 50% of the energy level, you have 50% of the ability you have physically. But I have not spent a match. Whereas in first 20k out of a 60k race, I have not even been in the wind. My average power is 180 and my normalized is 180. And I look at your profile, in the first 20k, you've done 20k worth of 190 to 250 watts. When it comes to the key component of the key moment of the race, you could be huffing and puffing because you've just done an effort. And here I am sneakily sitting in a perfect position conserving my energy and go with the move. And because you're on your limit, even though you're fitter than me, but you've been caught out because you've burnt too many matches. That's an example of what we're talking about where you know, just because you're the fittest. But if you're not the smartest and you haven't conserved and you haven't positioned yourself well, you could still get left out of the break, you know, miss the key part or lose the race because you've just used your, your energy levels at the wrong time. And the person who's clever and conserves and positions themselves beautifully and has the same physical ability as you, you will beat you every time.

It's the same thing in time trials, same things in triathlons. The patient athlete will get to that last quarter of the race and have as much energy as possible, have the maximum amount that they've, you know, measured their effort in the last, the last quarter of a half marathon or a marathon, and we always speak about this, you'll feel like you're flying through the field and you perform really well. And you say to all our athletes over and over again, if you don't do that, you can completely capitulate in that last quarter, even though you've run, potentially ran or ridden or raced so well over the course of a triathlon up to that point, if you've used too many vickies, if you spent too much energy, you could lose, undo all that hard work disastrously compared to just being conservative from the start, measuring effort the entire time, staying really patient, you might not gain that much time earlier on, but you'll gain so much in that last quarter, which we just see over and over again.

The final thing I want to say the example, it just happened on the weekend and it's an Extreme example because this race was a Grand Fonda, it was the Alpine Classic at Bright and we had guys doing 200k or 250k in and there were some people doing 75k, 100k, there's a whole lot of different distances and we had two guys doing 250k. And hats off to both of them who just performed brilliantly and they executed exactly what we talked about, conserving and positioning. And the first climb is up Buffalo, then they do Tooonga, one side Too Wonga down to Mount Beauty, turn around, come back up Too Wonga, the other side down Too Wonga, into Bright, then they head to Harrietville and do Hotham and then turn around and come back down Hotham and ride all the way to Bright. So that's the 250k, it's got basically a Bright climb, a Hotham climb Too Wonga, Both sides got four climbs and.

Obviously ranging from 20 minutes, 20 minute.

Climbs to an hour to two hours. And so you know the tactics and the. And the discussion was for both or for all our riders doing this event. And doesn't matter whether it's the Alpine Classic or it's a 10 to 12 hour event. So you know, when you get to Buffalo, you've got to ride the power. That's going to be the same power as Hotham, as Tooonga, both sides. So, so everybody else in the race is not doing that. So they're getting passed by pretty much the entire field. They all start together and our guys are pretty much last because they're riding the same power. They're going to ride for all four hills Pretty. And that's a bit of a hard thing to mentally cope with because everybody's passing you, everybody's riding away from you and you think this is crazy, I can ride way harder. You don't feel bad, you feel perfect, you're fresh, you're tapered. By the time they got to Hotham, they pretty much were passing everybody. And that was the exciting part. That's the bit that because they conserved and measured their effort from start to finish, this is an extreme example. You know, they've gone from position 1000 back to position 150 or wherever it is because they've actually measured their effort, enjoyed the thing. People who are just having a hell of a hard time on Hotham, you know, just cannot hardly push the pedals. And here's our guys tapping away at the same Watts that they were on Buffalo. So that's an example of you really using your bucket of water throughout the whole. The whole event and getting to the end, just running empty there. And so I think that's a good way to finish.

Talk about dominating a race. They might not have won or come top 10 or even top 20, but the fact that they've passed 600 people or 800 people, you feel like you are dominating the race. And that is. That is the best feeling. And that. That is a great way to finish. So, as always, thanks for listening. It's been a great, packed episode, and we'll see you on the next one.