Exploring the World of Off-Road Cycling with Nick Locandro and Trekky Johnston

It was incredibly tough. Like I think we started at 2 o' clock in the afternoon and rode through the night and finished at like 3 o' clock in the morning. Not sure Jared would have appreciated me sending him a message at three in the morning saying I won.

He was probably awake watching the live update. This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly and on my left is former Australian Ironman Champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Today we have a really exciting announcement that we are launching our second podcast, the Alt Route Podcast. We're finding more and more people are turning to alternative cycling training and racing events and we think it's worth talking about the Therefore, the podcast will be bringing you training and racing advice, event updates and analysis of the professional gravel racing scene. Now this podcast is going to be hosted by our cycling coach here at Tribello, Nick Leandro. Not only is Nick a highly talented cyclist himself, he's an enthusiast about everything to do with off road cycling, gravel, mountain bike and anything adventure related. This Alt Route Podcast is dedicated to covering the exciting and challenging off road and alternate events that are growing enormously in popularity around the world. So if you're a fan of anything off road, then this podcast is for you. And Nick will also be joined in special episodes by professional cyclist Brendan Trekkie Johnston. Trekkie is a five time Australian Mountain bike champion, winner of The Dirty Warning Honorable National Road Series, overall winner, third in the Men's National Elite Road Race, top 10 on the General classification of the Tour Down Under, National Gravel champion, and one of 35 athletes selected in this year's lifetime Grand Prix Series in America. He's also a member of the giant off road team and he'll be joining Nick to discuss a lot of the races and and events happening throughout the year. So in today's episode we are joined by both Nick and Trekkie to talk about the new podcast, some of the pro races that have just taken place and more about off road training and racing. Nick Big welcome to you new host of the Alt Route Podcast. Thank you for jumping on.

Always nice to be back for my second Trivalo podcast. Jordy.

Yeah, very good to have you here. And Trekkie, a very big welcome for your first time on the TR Trivello Coaching Podcast, but your second time as you appeared on the the first podcast with Nick.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's exciting to kind of welcome in this Alt Route podcast With Nick. And, yeah, obviously it was episode one, so it's. Yeah, it's nice to kind of tie it into. To your audience as well.

Yeah. Now we can't wait to chat. Everything about the racing scene that you are both involved in, and we want to start off with you. Just did a pretty epic ride on the weekend, and it is called the Belgium Waffle Race. And my question to you, Warfare, just then, was, why is it called that? And you. Do you have any answer for why it's called the Belgium Waffle Race?

I'm not sure of the exact, like, origin of. Of that, but I think it's more. I don't know whether it's like a bit of a. Well, the Americans don't really do piss takes, but it's like a bit of a, like, homage to, like, the classics in Belgium. And it's. They. They call these, like, the monuments of gravel, basically. So there's like, four of them, I think, and they're all across America, but they're. Yeah, they're basically trying to emulate the classics, but with. With more of a gravel kind of style. They spoke a bit with Lawrence Tendam about it in the press conference the other day, and, you know, he was drawing some ties between, like, the classics that he's done a lot of, obviously, in the World Tour and then, yeah, this type of racing here. But it's actually got a really cool vibe about it. And I think, yeah, that. That kind of classics kind of scene kind of somehow does come into it a bit.

That's an awesome answer, and that's kind of where we want to start going with this conversation, because a lot of our audience won't be as familiar with the whole scene and gravel riding as you two are. And so take us through this first race that you've just. It's cool that it's kind of a spring Classics, I guess. Exactly what you just said. It's almost like the gravel version of a spring. Of a spring Classics race. Talk us through the whole race. How did you go? Talk through kind of what.

What the.

What the course is, how long it was. Yeah. Again, especially for our audience who won't be familiar with it. Yeah. Run us through how it all panned out.

It's. It's one of the races that I kind of identified as like, a big kind of gravel race that I could kick off my season here with. And to be honest, I haven't actually raced a gravel that much at home. Like, it's there. There aren't that many races and yeah, it just, I haven't been doing it that long really. Maybe I've done five races like. But so to come over I just wanted to do a race before the this big series and doing the Lifetime series kicks off which I spoke about with Nick in our episode and this was like a precursor to that and most of the guys would be there so it was just a good chance to do, do the event and see how you know, I fared and I, I'll this trip I'll get a gravel racing and, and round one this weekend mountain bike race as well. So it's just a really good. Yeah. Way to kick it off. But the race itself is. Yeah, it's strange. Like I wasn't sure what to expect. Like I'd done a bit of research on it and it's basically like mountain biking, road, road cycling and gravel racing. In, in the one event it's 200 and something, 205ks or something like 130 or 40 miles. I think there was like three and a half thousand foot. So pretty, pretty big day out. But yeah, like I mean there's. Oh my God the tire. The chat around tires and bikes and setup and everything is insane. I've never seen anything like it. People were blown away with what I was using because it was like way, way bigger tires and stuff. But this is more of an Aussie thing. But yeah, it's, it's quite unique this event and I think the San Diego one is, is the original. So it's quite famous. And yeah, it involves like single track, rocky single track to like kind of long 10, 15 minute road kind of climbs and a little like flat sort of back. Back roads and stuff. And there's people on road bike like I would say probably 70% of the people on road bikes. Yeah, it's, it's unusual. But yeah, personally I, yeah I was on a real gravel setup so like quite conservative and, and big tires so like pretty slow on the road. And like I was saying, people couldn't believe I was actually using that. Yeah that setup. So yeah, I guess if you're new to gravel or you're. Yeah, the tire talk is a lot like if you're using a road bike, road tires, obviously you're super fast the road but there's risks when you get off road and yeah vice versa. So if you're using big gravel, big gravel tires and a pure gravel setup, then you're slow on the road. So anyway, after that kind of played out with, with pre race then yeah, into the race I Mean, actually went really well for me. Yeah, I just managed to kind of follow the guys around and made the front group and then yeah, from there with Russell Finsterworld and Jasper Dutchy, we got away with like 40k to go. And yeah, I kind of exploded on the final climb and came in for fourth, got caught. But to be honest, at the start I was probably just happy with the top 10 in that field. There's some really strong guys in this scene and yeah, I was happy to get in there and get familiar with racing against this field, which I'm going to be for the rest of the year. But I'll tell you what, as a unique event, we wouldn't have anything like it. There would be absolutely uproar if we sent people on road bikes down these courses and single track and stuff. It would not fly back home. But there's 2,000 people doing it, so take us.

That's unreal. Take us through your, your gear selection. Were you happy with your final decisions and was it detrimental to your performance in the end or was it a positive?

Yeah, you know what, before the race with all the talk because I did a press conference and stuff with a lot of the front runners and yeah, I was getting some strange looks and strange kind of, I mean people. Like I was on like 45 mil tyres which like quite big, that's what I use back home and I don't know, I just like the safety and the compliance of it. It's a bit more comfortable and you can kind of just let it go a bit more with. Without the risk of puncturing. But yeah, to be honest, most of the guys in the front group were on either 32 or 35 mil, pretty much road tires, which is a big difference, like a big difference in rolling, which in fact I thought was not such a concern. But then maybe post race I'm like, well maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's more of a thing because I, I do the local kind of bunch rides on my gravel bike with 45 mil tires and it's not a problem. But I guess against. Yeah, I don't know, I, I was, I was. Before the race I was trying to like hang strong with my mindset and stick with it and I think post race I probably would have just gone down to maybe a 40. So minor decrease in size but I think still that would be bigger than everyone else anyway. So I don't know, it's probably something I'll learn more about throughout the year. But then I was saying to myself, like well, maybe I wouldn't have made it to the, the point at where there was three of us left. You know, if I had, if I had smaller tires, maybe I took a risk and got a puncher or a crash or whatever, you know, like it's, it's hard to say whether it was a good or bad choice, but. Yeah, maybe just something slightly smaller. But yeah, if people are getting into this world of gravel cycling though, they'll come across this at every event, I'd say.

Yeah, I think it's one of the really cool things too Trekkie about this style of racing is that like we talk about road racing, everyone's kind of got pretty similar bikes, pretty similar tires, pretty similar rim widths when you come into this world. And there's so many different things people talk about, whether it's tires, aero bars, which is kind of another controversial thing in itself. But are you someone that, like Dylan Johnson, who wants all the aero stuff and he's gone in and done wind tunnel testing with all specific gravel and it's such a dynamic and discipline that's ever changing and it's not just for the pros, but you see so many, just your general riders talking about this stuff as well. So it's pretty exciting, I reckon. And gives a really nice different component to it.

Yeah, absolutely. And like you say with. And the same with mountain bike, you know, to be honest, especially like once you get into some more sort of cross country, you. Yeah. Refining the tyre selection a bit more, but like longer stuff, you're really not making many changes. Like you probably, you probably get one or two tires that you would use typically and maybe change the size marginally. But I don't think the. Yeah, the disadvantage or advantage to be gained in on the mountain bike is. And the same for the road is much like maybe on the road you run 28 or 25. Like it's not, it's not crazy and you probably just get used to running something and stick with it. But what gravel has is like all these variables where you can make gains somewhere but you're, you're losing out somewhere else. So like on the weekend, at one point every single person had the perfect setup in like, at one point in the race you were, you were on the best, the best bike possible, but there's not, there was not a bike for the whole day, you know, and that's the same with all the other gravel races. Like, you know, whether you're carrying like a pack or, you know, you're carrying a pack, you've Got all the hydration you've got. You know, you've got sufficient hydration, you're going to be sorted for the day. You're not going to lose out on running out of water. But is it heavier? Is it, you know, less aero or. I think they found it was actually more arrow. But yeah, you know, those sort of things. It's. There's so many decisions to be made and like, what I'm finding is like, yeah, there's people who are right across it and yeah, I'd like to be one of those, but it's, it's not something you just walk into and without experience from.

Yeah.

Doing the events before, I think. Yeah.

Is that something you want to get interested in and find out? Are you a person who wants to really study up that and get across that, or is it something you, you think, well, maybe if I just train harder, I'll be strong enough no matter what I ride. How do you. Where do you see yourself sitting in that. That area?

For me, I think I just want to be in the ballpark with that sort of stuff. Like, I don't want to be doing anything stupid where I'm at a big. Yeah. Kind of disadvantage. I think that's. And just thinking of macho and strong enough to, yeah. Overcome it or whatever, but, you know, let the legs do the talking. I think you need to be in the ballpark. Like, it's a, it's a high level that I'm going to be racing that. And, and even for punters, you know, like, you shouldn't be handicapping yourself just, just from. I don't know, you don't want to call it laziness but like, lack of research or preparation. I think it, it probably, it's like same in triathlon. Like, you know, there's probably a thousand little pieces that you could put into your day that are gonna help you and, and they're probably easy to do if you're well prepared, you know, like transition, all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I don't think it's. I don't think it's, yeah. Probably a good idea to handicap yourself just from. Yeah. Not. Not. Yeah, I don't think I'd do the, like so much, you know, study myself other than just out training on the bike, like trying different things a bit. But also even that takes time. And so I think if there's. There's actually a lot of guys who have already done it and, and the information is there. I guess it's just a matter of like, applying it to your particular bike and your kind of style of riding and yeah, working it in that way.

With this style of racing too is your decisions are amplified because of the time. Like if you look at unbound, it's 10 hours. So where you're doing a 60k road race may not matter as much, but I think every decision now is amplified and can have a significant impact when you're racing over this kind of distance.

I love that point because it's. That makes it both exciting for the sport but also terrifying because if you make a mistake, it's really going to cost you. I was going to say dad. It might remind you of the early days of triathlon when everything was so new and everyone's just figuring things out and trying stuff for the first time. It does make it kind of a really exciting sport to be involved in.

Yeah, I also kind of worry too that, you know, there were so many people who were so ahead of the game in the early days of triathlon, had such a huge advantage because their equipment was far superior to people who didn't have that access to, you know, we just didn't have time trial bars in those days. I'm talking, you know, 1980s. The very first set of time trial bars came out, I think even in the tour. Greg LeMond had them in 1989 or 88, where he ended up winning the tour on the time trial, last stage of the time trial. And that equipment selection was kind of key and can be make or break at that level.

So.

So it's really. You don't want to be left behind, do you? You want to. You want to be with the pack in, in not only in fitness and preparation, but in your equipment has to be at the level that's not going to hinder your performance. And that's kind of where I'm, I'm, you know, I see this as an exciting period for you to. To really get.

Get.

As you said, you made such a good point. Find the people who've already have already trialed all this stuff and, and then use their knowledge to. To see if it works for you and, and see how, you know, if you do those bunch rides where you're riding 45 mil tires, you know, go and do that same ride using 35 mil tires and see if there's any difference in, you know, just do your own little experiments about how you perform just changing one thing. And they're the things that are. That are the kind of the trailblazing things that you're going to go right this is too big a gap from what I should be using.

So I do want to keep this conversation going about the racing. And the epitome is the lifetime Grand Prix that you've touched on. And I'll get you guys to talk about that in a sec. But I want to take it kind of upper level just to the overall sport of gravel. And Nick, you started the Alt Route podcast. Give us a bit of an insight into why you started it and what your goal is and why you love this side of cycling and gravel riding and kind of adventure riding.

Yeah, it's. I think there's. This is something that Trekkie and I discussed on the first episode is just how it differs from other style of racing. And I think, and the more and more I think about it, because I get asked this a lot, I think just how inclusive it is and the way that it caters for a wide variety of people. You know, we, we've all done road racing and I love that as well. But you can go to a race, have a bad day, get dropped in the first 10Ks and then you're riding the next 50K solo by yourself and your race is done. But you can go to a gravel event and you can be doing it just because you want to explore a new part of the state or the country or the world. So just the, the scenery that's there and even like there's so many different types of gravel as well. You can have hard packed gravel that's really fast and fun. You can have stuff that's more technical and rutted out. Fire Trail can be just wanting to do it for the challenge of the distance and the duration. Or you can be, you know, like Trekkie, wanting to do a series like this and be highly competitive. So it just caters for so many people and going and racing unbound. Last year there was like 3,000 people on the start line and you've got people that are taking 20 hours to complete it and are just there for the challenge of it. And then you've got the guys racing it, you know, as a part of a 250,000American prize purse. So just what a wide variety that I don't think you get in other, you know, aspects of cycling, which is why I think it's so good.

And Trekkie, you touched on the fact that, you know, the atmosphere around the race on the weekend was so good. And Nick, I know you've, you've said that you loved, you know, going over to the States and going to these things and cycling is Such a huge sport over here, especially because the population is so big, but there's just so many more cyclists than probably what we're used to. And that's another part of why you love it, is the atmosphere is so great. Right.

Actually on, on Sunday, one of the guys high up at Giant was actually taking on the, the race himself. So I actually just when I had nowhere else to be because I finished and so I just hung out at the finish for. I mean he took, I think he took 12 hours to do it or close to, and I took six. So I just. Because I hung out at the finish having a beer and. But what was interesting is. And it's. That's more of a triathlon thing too, I think, or like Iron man, you know, there's people finishing all the time, but here, like, as well, it's kind of amplified for, for cycling. They. There was people coming in all day and like the, their kind of crew were there assembled and like everyone's so amped and like. Yeah, so pumped for these finishes. Like, you know, everyone's. It's a little bit cliche but like everyone is achieving their own kind of goal that day, which is really cool. You know, that's, that's something that road racing will never have. And yeah, it's just the nature of how it is. You know, you can't have people out on the roads for 12, 13 hours. You know, you can't just shut the roads for that long gravel cycling. They can, they can have it on back roads where it's not a problem to kind of have half the road close up sections and, and, you know, so I think, yeah, the atmosphere is, is fantastic and everyone was pumped. I think it's a bit, I keep saying it's a bit different over here. They seem like they're more expecting, accepting of, you know, the challenge and like, like I was saying with the course itself and how challenging and parts of it were, but everyone was coming in, they were amped, you know, no one seemed to be. Yeah, they were just stoked to finish it. So the atmosphere was great.

Is that your experience, Nick?

Yeah, like, it's so funny. And you even see it from the pros too. Like they'll finish their race like at unbound and then they go back, have a shower, have something to eat and they're back at the finish line till midnight, 1, 2 o', clock, cheering other people across the line. And I think there's a real acknowledgement that the effort for the general rider is just as much as if not more for them because they're out there putting in the same effort, but for longer to what they did. And you know, I think sometimes maybe there's not really that same acknowledgment from a high level athlete to kind of finish your road race. I get the win, I'm off to the team bus, having a shower and catch you later. Whereas there it just seems like everyone's all on the same level and there's a much more of an appreciation whether you're doing it in for unbound 10 hours or 20 hours. You know, I really like that aspect of it. There's no kind of hierarchy, you know, which is such a great community to be a part of.

Yeah. And I want to dive into your mindset a bit more around this because it's a totally different sport to kind of what cycling is. Cycling itself is already endurance based and then you guys are just taking it to the next level. And every week Nick messages me and says, come do this 700k race with me. Or I just go, nick, I'm not interested in that. But you just love it. So explain why you love it. And tricky, you can give an answer after as well. But you know, you're just taking this endurance to a, to an ultra level and that extra level. Explain your love for it. What is it about it?

Yeah, it's really funny. I think I've always really liked the traditional long races on our calendar, which would be like the Melbourne Tijuanable or Grafton Twin Varel, which are like six seven hour races and they're always the ones that I loved the most. And then it's always been like, I think how much more can I challenge myself? So I think there was the first off road one that I trained for was the Thunderbolts Adventure ride, which was I think 260 ks with 6 and a half thousand meters of climbing in New South Wales. And that took like 12 hours. And it was incredibly tough. Like I think we started at 2 o' clock in the afternoon and rode through the night and finished at like 3 o' clock in the morning. Not sure Jared would have appreciated me sending him a message at three in the morning saying, I won. Yeah, I finished that. And it's like, what's, what's the next challenge? Like, how else can I challenge myself further than this? And then it was unbound. That's always, I think probably the biggest race for any gravel racer on the calendar of that being such an epic challenge and was fortunate enough to go over and do that. As well. And then finishing that at Slack and I, where I'd message you, Jordy, it's like, oh, there's this awesome race in Spain called badlands at 700ks and 7 and a half thousand meters of climbing. So it's kind of like almost just this finding where your limits are. And yeah, I think that's really, that really excites me. You know, road racing's great, but you almost get to a stage where you're racing the same people on similar courses. And I think I actually saw Trekkie reference this as well. And then this is just something completely new. There's so many different aspects and different dynamics and people that Trekkie wouldn't have raced before. So it's all so new, which is, you know, so exciting. And I'm sure for Trekkie finding out where his limits are as well, even after all these years for him.

It's funny, like here you do all this road racing and, you know, you end up in, in a bunch. Like, even if it's not in the front bunch, you know, you're, you're in a bunch and you're kind of sucked along for the day. Generally. Sometimes it goes really well and you're out the front and you're in group four, three or four or one or whatever. But you know, in the gravel, it's like, there's just a bit extra grip during the day. You know, like, on the road, the road's a bit stickier. Like you're, you're having to work for the, the speed a bit harder all day. So naturally everyone's working a bit harder. The group gets smaller, you know, like, and you're going to end up on your own at some point pretty well. And I think then you're, then you're on your own. You've got your own kind of challenge to get to the finish in the best place possible. Whether that's winning or whether that's just completing, you know, you've, you've gotten through that, like, grit of the, of the day and made it to the finish, which I think is like, quite appealing for people. And yeah, for me, like, I don't know what I'm finding is like the race, seven hours race, or like, you know, I'm doing some long training as well. I feel like from 4 hours to like 10 hours now, it's just, it just almost feels the same. Like, I don't know, it's strange, but I think you just get really good at like, kind of pacing yourself or managing your effort. Um, and Fueling, I think feeling's a big one on the gravel because I think you're just generally, you're burning more calories and yeah, you need to like really be on top of that. Um, and if you're on top of that, then I feel like if you're well trained. Yeah, the longer you go, you kind of, I don't know, it's not so different. But for sure, like doing, completing a race is 200ks or you know, 300ks. There's extra satisfaction in that for sure then. And like I say, you know, there's a portion that you can have done by yourself and not be stacked along in a group. So it's kind of gratifying to know that you've. Yeah. Just by the nature of the beast that you've got yourself through that race rather than being in a group and towed along at any given point sort of thing.

We really have a period, I think of people who are really challenging themselves across a lot of sports. And you see ultra Marathon Runners, 100K runs, 160K runs, the Mont Blanc Challenge, I'm coaching Rachel to that. It's 160k, it's epic amount of elevation. You've got so many gravel races that are, you know, as Nick said, up to 600k long and, and you know, Iron man was the, the big thing in the, in the, in the 80s. And it's almost like that's come back again but in a different sport. And, and people used to think back in the 80s, this sport won't last. Not many people want to do it. There's, in 30 years, there's just been literally millions of people have done an Iron man and, and I. Do you think that gravel will have the same attraction and there is something people want to do to challenge themselves. It's quite clear to me that, that the longer, the harder, the more enduring, the better. And, and do you see that in gravel as well? With. I'm not just talking about you at your level. I'm talking about the age grouper, the 50 year old, you know, even the 20 year old who just wants to ride his bike and be challenged. Do you see that as something that's. That's going to really take off or do you.

Yeah.

Where do you see it going?

Oh, for me, I think seeing it on the weekend. Yeah, I think, I mean here it's, it's, it's on route. Like it's, it's already. So liftoff has happened. Like there's, there's 2, 000 people taking on this crazy challenge. And like Nick was saying, at Unbound there's 3,000 more, 4,000. Like people love the challenge and yeah, like it's very adventurous as well. Yeah, I wouldn't like him to. Not that I've done an Iron man, but my, my dad did so I know got a little bit. But like it's, it's not like Iron man in that sense. I wouldn't say definitely challenging but like you, you just get so far out into the course or whatever and you end up by yourself and goes wrong and you've got to kind of be prepared, you've got to carry your own stuff and you've got to be prepared for that. So I think, yeah, Nick, you can probably touch on like what. Yeah, some of those challenges might be out there. Like.

Yeah. And even for me at Unbound, like we were in the second group on the road and we were so far of everyone else and eye puncture and just being so much more self sufficient. You got to learn to be able to almost problem solve, I think is a really big part of this style of racing as well. And I think I had three hours by myself out to the next feed zone. A lot of it. There's no, there's no volunteers out on course telling you which way to go. They give you a GPX file, you upload it to your Garmin and you're doing it yourself. So there's just so many different elements to it that. Yeah, well, absolutely. It's a physical challenge because of the distance and the time. There's so many other more mental challenges as well to it. It's just like almost this perfect combination of so many different dynamics into it which I think everyone or people are finding so appealing. And it's funny, you look at America and like you can't deny the amount of participants that do these events. And there's so many of them. It's not like there's just one or two. And it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out in Australia, I think because these like, I know we keep mentioning unbound, it's like 330k, it's an enormous challenge and I don't quite think Australians are quite maybe up for that challenge. Like maybe Americans are at the moment. So a lot of our gravel races might be like 120ks or 150k. So it's going to be really interesting to see does it grow in the same way where it keeps getting longer and wilder or how it really starts to take take shape in Australia will be really interesting. It's definitely going to grow here, there's no doubt about that. It's just going to be what it looks like, I think.

Well, the dirty warning gave a bit of indication, didn't it? That was. That first edition had how many and was immediately popular.

Yeah, 350 entrants, I think. And then comparing it to the road edition, which I think only had like 120 in the same year, it's a pretty good indication. I don't know, Trekkie did it and actually won it. So you might be able to speak a bit more about that.

Yeah, I think. And that's a particularly good. I actually spoke about that race on the. In the press conference the other day. They. The question was, is there anything kind of like this back home? And yeah, I referenced that as an event. Not that it's really like the Belgian Waffle Ride, but, um, it's a lot. Yeah, a lot more kind of gravel. Just. Just plain old gravel, which is. Which is perfectly fine. So, yeah, I think there's something like that. And there's also something quite cool about a point to point, you know, like if you're. That's really like a journey, which is appealing, I think, although logistically challenging. There is that big element of, you know, starting somewhere and finishing somewhere else. Like, it's a. Yeah, like my dad used to do, like the George Bass, like, surfboat marathon. He's like 10 of them, which starts in Bateman's Bay and finishes in Eden. And part of me, like, yeah, I just remember that. And like each. There was stages obviously, but, you know, you'd. You'd send him off at 1.1spot and then kind of do something for a bit and then meet him at the finish. And I don't know, it's quite cool to know that he'd. He'd been in a boat and headed out to sea and. And finished somewhere else, like. And this is the same feeling with the point to point in the, like, gravel racing. Like, you go out, you start somewhere, you go out through the wilderness and you finish somewhere else. And that's a real journey kind of feel. So, yeah, it's appealing to me and I think a lot of other people.

Well, one of the most used terms on this podcast is Three Peaks. I think we mention it every second episode, but it is a great example of a lot of. To do with training. But dad, I'd love to know your thoughts on potential Australian participation because there is this massive appeal among cyclists to do the three peaks challenge because it's an 8 to 10 or 12 hour cycling challenge. And there is, there would be a big element of the fact that not everyone can do an Iron man, not because they can't complete, complete that endurance, but because they either can't swim or they, they can't run. You know, it's their bodies are just too worn down or to had too many previous injuries where they actually just can't complete a marathon. And that is in limiter for triathlon. Whereas with cycling a lot of people turn to cycling because it's a lot more injury free despite crashing, etc. So I imagine that the amount of interest in something like Three Peaks and the amount of inquiries we get. Dad, would you agree that that shows there is a level of enthusiasm for more ultra endurance cycling events?

Without doubt, Jord. I think it's a great example. If people are really willing to do 4,000 meters of climbing and potentially 16 hours of riding. I would never have thought that in my wildest dreams that that event would be the event that it is now. And, and it is one of the key events that cyclists go to for the challenge. It's. And I think now that gravel is, is appearing on the scene, all those three peak riders will transfer straight across to gravel riders. I've got no doubt in my mind that that's going to be, you know, the next big challenge and, and I'm pretty excited about it. And that's kind of brings me on to the next point. Do you think Trekkie, the, the training has any difference between doing a, an 8 hour, 10 hour 3 peaks compared to an unbound. Is there any area that you think you would, you would be specifically honing in on differently or is the training kind of generally the same?

Oh, I think, I think it would be different. I think generally in something like un or most other gravel races that aren't like. So climbing like a Three Peaks, you're traveling at a lot high speed. So yeah, I can see like, you know, for me I wouldn't do Three Peaks. I think it sounds terrible but like that's hilarious. I just. Yeah, well, I just like the idea of going quick. So if there's some climbs somewhere, obviously that's, that is what it is. But like, so I think just grinding all day up climbs is like I don't know. But yeah, in terms of training I think there would be changes. I think those also, those, those road riders probably would need to spend some time off road on the gravel to get a feel for and like I say like, you know, you're not, I guess in Three Peaks you go up and then you have to obviously descend the, the climbs as well. So that's, that's not something that really happens so much like, whereas the gravel is more like, like I was saying earlier, like you just feel that the road's a bit more grippy, you know, so there's kind of load there all day. So I think yeah, you would probably change the training a bit in terms of you're not doing like one hour long effort and then flipping it and going back down. You're kind of doing. Yeah, along, generally along, you know, five, six, seven, ten hours with, with grip on the road the whole day. So Yeah, I think it's different in that sense for sure. From my perspective anyway.

Yeah, I, I agree. And I think one of the things that like Jared and I discussed post Unbound is a lot of my longer training rides I would do between six and eight hours and ride out to a local race to the race, ride back on my road bike. And I think looking back at Unbound, the one thing that I probably would have changed with, with my training would have been doing seven, eight hour rides on the gravel. I think there is a big difference between doing that seven hours on the road as opposed to gravel. And I really liken it to riding on the kicker is similar to riding on the gravel. It just feels like there's always a resistance there and there's no free ks, you know. So I think there is very much different training for the gravel, even though very similar concepts in terms of you can't just do all zone 2 training and think that that's going to be all good because you're doing a 6, 7, 8, 10 hour event. You know, even somewhere like Unbound that was flat, you still needed to do VO2 work there because there was still short one to three minute climbs where it was really important to have that top end as well. So there definitely are some similarities, but I don't think they're still one in the same.

This is a great topic and I want to keep diving into the training because I know that there will be some listeners whose mouths are watering at the thought of some of these challenges. And it's actually why we wanted to, to do this podcast because we're excited, Nick, that you started it and it's a really exciting sport to be in and you're someone that has recently made over the last few years that that kind of big, bigger transition from road cycling into this. And so how did you find that shift in terms of training and efforts and spending more time off road and learning that craft?

It definitely brings another really unique element to your training and one that for me I loved is that you are exploring a whole new world on your endurance ride. So, you know, just being a road cyclist before transferring to gravel is I basically had ridden every road in Ballarat within 2, 3 hour radius. So knew every road like the back of my hand. And it's almost like gravel opened up a completely new world and you kind of can't really necessarily switch off on the gravel as well. Like there's so many different elements and obstacles, so more of a technical element that you're always going to be switched on for amazing scenery, you know, that you come across as well. But then just yeah, I guess the more racing I did starting to learn the nuance of it as well. Like I touched on before, I think doing zone two on a road bike compared to zone two on the gravel isn't the same thing even though you're in the same zones, you know. So it was really learning the requirements about this style of racing. And the style of racing is progressing as well, I'm sure. Going back five years ago, unbound. I know like a guy by the name of Ted King won I think maybe three of them and he was an ex World Tour rider, so already had an unbelievable base. But he explained the races are basically just like a war of attrition and probably for the most part a lot of Zone 2, whereas now like even Belgium waffle ride that Trekkie just did on the weekend, it was incredibly aggressive for the star. Like Trekkie was in a move with a couple of people from the gun and it's almost, I liken it a bit to what we saw in the the Belgium classics is you've got guys like we are making it hard with 110ks to go where we just didn't see that or a break forming would usually just kind of slip off the front where now they're trying for like two hours. And that's how this is progressing as well. So it's not just a matter of having a really good end base and that's kind of it. So it's a really interesting dynamic now about the training required for it.

That's an awesome point. And as always we like getting super specific with training. So you've got race one coming up. Trekkie of the lifetime Grand Prix series. Plus you were training for the race in the weekend. Take us through the last block the last month of training. What were you doing specifically to prepare?

Yeah, well even just before that like I did a, A A lot of like you know, really just big load. Maybe eight weeks before I was doing yeah like 27, 2830 hour weeks with not too much structure then. But then I really went into some structure in the last kind of six weeks. A lot of actual like talk efforts. So really low cadence has done a number of my back which is not great but I think there's still benefit that I've got from that. So like six minutes, six minute efforts and not really more than six of them, which is different for me. Normally I'd build up to 10, 12 that kind of area but I've kind of, I've actually got a new coach but I, yeah, stick around. That kind of four to six in a session, six minutes, four or six minutes long, really low cadence, that sort of work. And then for instance I was doing these longer days like a week or a week before I came. I did like a seven, seven and a half hour ride on a Sunday with yeah, in the early part we did like I did three by 30 minutes at like zone three kind of, I don't know, like 330 watts or something. So quite firm for me. And 30 minutes long and three of them, which is also good because it passed, you know, with the recovery it probably passes two hours or more. And then in the last hour and a half I went for like 4 by 10 minutes just, just all out pretty much. So that's after like six hours you start that effort. So it's my kind of thinking is after three and a half thousand kilojoules that kind of mark is when you want to start kind of racing I guess. So once and once you get into that, you know there's, there's actually you got to be able to get to that first like burn that many kilojoules and then you know, just complete. But then if you can get to that and then start doing some intervals, interval work and actually start to do some racing after that many, that much work, that's where I think I'm gonna find the gains. Personally just I've always been okay, you know, over the longer distance. But what I need to do is lift to another level. And I think yeah, being able to, to kind of do that, those that sort of work in the last couple hours of a seven, eight hour day is, is where I'm going to see benefit for myself. And I think yeah, people kind of wanting to follow the same kind of races and yeah, I mean the reason I'm doing it is because. Yeah, at the front is going to be. That's when the moves are going right. Like although early as well. It's different following moves after 3,000 kilojoules than it is, you know, at the start. So yeah, that's my kind of rationale with, with the training focus.

How is that looking? That's your endurance specific type of race preparation.

What.

What do the other sessions look like during that week when you've done a seven hour with, you know, four by ten minutes of really threshold at your, at your limit. What does it look like after that and a few days later? And is there any other intensity sessions that you're doing during the week?

To be honest, not, not really other than those, those talk efforts which are actually. They end up being quite. Yeah, except like can be up to 100 Newton meters, which I don't know if people are doing these efforts as well, but you end up with a really. That's. It's, it's probably beyond threshold by the end of six minutes. So this real locate and twerk is pretty new for me, especially at, you know, there's the old school SE which is just grinding away with, you know, you might be like zone three or four. This is probably higher. And especially by the end it really starts to. Yeah. To escalate, I guess. Yeah. So beyond those. And then those longer couple of days in the week where I'm doing Threshold towards the end. Yeah, the rest is probably just. Yeah, more, more endurance work. I find that enough, to be honest. I might have the occasional like 45 second kind of those VO2 sets. But yeah, the, the, the low cadence and then those longer days of threshold are kind of my focus at the moment.

We had Dylan Johnson on the podcast and he spoke about how last season, one thing he would like to try and do differently is avoid a bit of burnout that he felt. He just felt with the relentless racing, he was not recovering that well and probably in patches just did a little bit too much in between and then tried to keep topping up that, that endurance fitness and kept up the long rides in weekends where he wasn't racing. And then he found by the end of the season he'd. He'd really just cooked it. So this is pretty tough for you because you're trying to do this series traveling from Oz. You're not staying in America. That's correct. You're not staying in America the entire time you're traveling back and forth, is that right?

No. Well, I'm gonna. I'm doing this first trip and I'm gonna come back next week and. And yeah, I've got like five weeks at home, which I would just purely use to train for. Well, in. See the family, of course, and train for. Train for unbound and onwards. Well, the rest of the season, basically. But once I come back at the start of June, I'll stay here till October and yeah, the family come over for three months as well. Yeah.

And then how do you plan on approaching that. That load management and avoiding that same feeling?

Yeah, I think I'm in a really good spot at the moment. I don't. Like I'm not here this weekend as round one, sort of expecting the challenge for the win as such. I'm probably like in the ballpark and I think I've made really good gains in the last, yeah, six or eight weeks and I think I have probably gone to closer to that level that I want to be at. But yeah, I'm also mindful of like, you know, the series itself actually just really suits me. So if I can have consistent rides at every event, you know, that's going to be my strength and I think that's what I need to focus on. So, like, coming up really well for one race, I'm probably not going to try and do. I think.

And I mean, it's.

It's interesting because we've not really had to worry about a series before, especially one that lasts from. Yeah. Now till the end of the year, basically. So it will be new and. And maybe I'll find the same challenges that. That Dylan did. But yeah, I think I'm gonna go pretty heavy in the early part of the season and then I guess try and manage like. Like maybe better than perhaps he was able to throughout. So, yeah, I'll be in Colorado Spring, so I'll actually be a bit of altitude as a base, which I think I'll just have to be careful with a bit. There is another. There's a couple of events that would shoot as well, Leadville. So, yeah, to be honest, I'm not all across it and it could. I could fall in a heap, but we'll see. I think generally my body copes well with the load. It definitely has in the past. But yeah, this isn't. This is a new challenge for sure. So, yeah, Nick, take us through.

Firstly, just take us to exactly what the series is for the listener. And I mean, it's a big reason why you started the podcast. You fell in love with it. You love observing it you're very across all the riders, how the events work. So explain to the listeners what it is and kind of why you started a podcast around it as well as all other types of riding.

Yeah, it's definitely one I fell in love with, George. It's just a completely new world around gravel, which is something obviously I'm so passionate about, especially after getting to race unbound and getting to experience the culture there, all the athletes, the different abilities, the environment, the crowds, the expos. But the Lifetime series is now seven races. I'm pretty sure Trekkie. Is that right? It was six. Yeah, now it's seven. They've added in a new event this year, but basically there's a split between mountain bike events and gravel events. And it's really unique in terms of what we were talking about as it literally lasts the whole year. So they're all one day races and you know, it's so dynamic in terms of you've got two, three hour mountain bike race at Sea Otter this weekend for example, and then you've got a 10 hour long 330k gravel race. So the requirements, you know, are so different and everyone has every event has their different challenge, whether it be Leadville at altitude that are super long climbs or you know, a technical mountain bike race. So there's just so many different elements to it. And I kind of love also that there's no teams, it's just individuals. Their approaches are all very different. They've got their own sponsors. You know, a lot of these guys are gravel pro, so this is what they get to do for a living. They get to pick and choose what events they do. So yeah, I guess just the whole, not necessarily this event, but the whole gravel discipline I think is so exciting. And then to have a series where there's 250,000American upper grab for the winner who accumulates the most points throughout the series really does make it something that you can do for a living. So to have something separate from World Tour riding, which is basically probably the best form of a cyclist for getting paid. I'm sure the top mountain bikers do as well. But yeah, it's super exciting to have this new form of racing that's just so unique and different to anything that we've had before. Only 35 people get selected, both men and women. So it makes it even more intriguing and more impressive for Trekkie to get into. I think sometimes we take for granted, like, you know, we've seen Trekkie on the Australian scene for so long doing mountain biking and National Road Series, but he's done a handful of gravel races. So then to go over and even get selected for this series as well as Tasman Nankervis from Australia as well. And then Ala Blore, an Australian competing in the women's side. I think this will really help grow this scene in Australia as well. So it's really fascinating to watch and see how it plays out.

I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I know you're, you're a big fan of Trekkie's work and what he's done and that's why you had him on the first episode. And, and how do you think he's going to stack up against the other 34 riders in the Lifetime series? What do you see him going as?

It's a good question. I'm a bit jealous of Trekkie because I applied for the Lifetime series as well and didn't get in.

Explain that application process just briefly. You do speak about it on that first episode.

Yeah, it's quite intense and Trekkie can maybe touch on it quickly as well. But a lot of it, I guess having to show competency across both mountain bike and gravel is a part of it. I probably wouldn't even say it's the majority part of it, but a lot of it centers around how you're going to grow gravel riding in America or as a sport, you know. So I guess it's great to have to see that they've got that front of mind on how the sport is being grown as well, rather than just trying to get athletes with the best results. So yeah, it was, it was quite a long and detailed process as well. It kind of wasn't just sending your top results or anything like that. There was a lot of questions that required a lot of detail and a thought out approach to it. Trek, you might be able to speak to that a little bit more.

Yeah, I think. And, and having made it through that process and gotten in like further to that. They're so on that. You can really see what the goal is and it's not. Well, the number one goal is not to get the bet, like get the best guys and have. And just the racing. It's. The goal is to grow the sport. And what I think America does really well is, is brings people from outside the sport into it and lets them and shows it to them. And I can see that that's what they're trying to do, like with coverage and engagement. Like they're so on the front foot, like even this weekend they're trying to get everyone's, all the athletes kind of personal sponsorship engagements, they're promoting them. They want to know about it. They want to get. Because this is a huge expo weekend. And yeah, you can just see that the drive is to grow the sport.

Which.

Is actually quite cool to be a part of because, like Nick, myself, I'm actually passionate about it. I, I think it's really cool. And I think, yeah, I think we will see, like you say, these, these people who are doing the epic road challenges. I think potentially those, those road challenges have their days numbered as well with the road closures and that sort of thing. So, yeah, this is a market where I can see those people coming. And why not? Because, like we spoke about the journeys, the adventure, the challenge, it's all kind of rolled into one.

Even the race promoters have got more opportunity with less costs for having to close roads and get permits from local authorities and police. It's. I just think it's got so many positive aspects to it and you can't have races without people running them. And if the process to run a race is far more seamless, then there's going to be more opportunity to hold more races. And, and as you said earlier on the podcast, you just can't close roads for that length of time. And, and really, you know, the local population will be up in arms, whereas, you know, when you're off road, it's, it's just got so much more opportunity. And I'm sure race directors don't want to run races that haven't got enough people in it to make enough money, so they need to have the numbers. And, and I think the numbers are just people are voting with their feet, aren't they? It's, it's, it's a, it's a great opportunity for, for people who are wanting to. I know there's a lot of road riders who want to race, but there's just not enough races and not enough people in them to, to be, to have some fun with competition. This seems to be the next step.

It's super exciting and it's why we wanted to do this episode, as we said at the start, to shine light on it. And we've loved learning about it and we've loved watching it, so we can't wait to see how this next season unfolds. And Nick, I kind of wanted to finish off by you telling us what your goals are for the Out Route podcast, what you've got coming up this year and what you want listeners to know about it.

Yeah. I think the biggest thing for the Alt Route podcast is just showing people that might not be aware of this discipline in this world how great it is. I think it is going to be the future in America. Yeah. Just getting to share different people's stories. So if we can even start to get. I think we're going to have Isabel King on the next podcast. So getting to share the stories of some of the American writers and just whether that's being the Lifetime series, whether that's people doing, like the indie pack Ride in Australia. There's so many amazing events and different people with different stories and different challenges. So get to share that with the listeners. And as well as different setups and bikes and places to ride around the world. I think there's just so much that we can cover and share with people, which I think is really exciting now.

I'm pumped for it. I love that you started it because you just. You're super passionate about this and you're so across everything involved in it. You just. You're. You've got your pulse and the finger massively, and so can't wait to hear the conversations you're going to bring around it. And you did pick Trekkie for episode one for a reason. He's got plenty of unreal results to his name already. Can you give us a brief outline of why you rate him as a writer and why you had him on episode one, and what the listeners can look forward to in episode one?

Trekkie's results really speak to himself across all disciplines. He's ridden the Cape Epic. He's third in the Australian National Championships on the Road, overall winner, the National Road Series, Australian Gravel Champion. The list goes on. I was very interested to see how Trekkie would go in the Lifetime series, but I think one thing about Trekkies, no matter what level he goes to or what step up he goes to, whether that's from the National Road Series to Nationals, is he always makes that step. And even though he's a phenomenal rider, he doesn't just rely on that. He's very inquisitive, wants to talk to people that have gone there, done it, had the experience. And I think he's done the same for the Lifetime Series, which is why he goes into race one after a couple of series and does really well. So I think he's going to be right up there and. And really excited to see his journey. And then him also really help grow the sport by doing this series here in Australia as well.

Unreal. So if you want to hear more about his story. There's heaps to it. You've had a really cool journey. You have some big challenges, which you actually talk about in that first episode of your cancer diagnosis, and then getting through that and then getting back to this point now, which is pretty amazing to hear. So it's. It's an awesome episode. Go listen to it. The Alt Route podcast is now on all podcasting platforms. I can't wait to hear what you guys have got planned for the year. And as we said, Trekkie, you're going to be jumping on episodes throughout the whole year to go through the races as they come in the Lifetime series. Talk about your experiences. Talk about experiences with other athletes. So. So we can't wait to hear it. Thanks, Tricky, for jumping on. I really appreciate your time.

Yeah, all good. No, I'm actually really pleased with that you guys and Nick have collaborated, and it should give me another avenue or vehicle to kind of bring the stories from here back home. And I think people are interested in hopefully, yeah. More and more become interested.

Well, that's it for this episode. Thank you, everyone, for listening, as always, and we'll see you next week.