From EPO Scandals to Marathon Record Breakers: A Review of Triathlon and Marathon News

You just prepare yourself the best you can. And if on the day there are people who are far and away so much superior than you, then you've just got to accept that, you know, that's what happened on that day. And you know you'd be happy with your own performance. That's what's more important.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivelo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. An absolutely packed episode today. We've got the Boston and London marathons to talk about the end of the spring Classics racing season and an absolute bombshell in triathlon, which we'll get to. Which, if you've been watching the news at all, you will have seen the big doping scandal that's just happened. We will get to that later in the episode. But, dad, welcome in for another big one. Let's start with what are you grateful for?

Thanks, Jord. Well, it seems like it's been ages since we last connected on the podcast, but it hasn't actually. But it's just because once you start traveling, you really feel like you're not in your consistent home environment. And that's my gratitude, is coming home is nothing better. It's great traveling. Don't get me wrong. I love it. Getting to be so fortunate. I should be grateful for that as well. Fortunate to actually be. Be able to travel now and, and, you know, it's well documented, our experiences in Belgium and coming home to. To new grandchildren. We've now got three grandchildren, which, which is great.

The.

The little family is growing and to see everybody at home and, and yeah, just being back in your own house, your own bed, not out of a suitcase. Yeah. Really grateful for. For what. What was home and what was waiting for me when I finished the trip. So, yeah, that's my gratitude for today.

I love it. Yeah, we've both been doing a fair bit of traveling. Once I left you in Belgium, I went on to America. And my gratitude is I got to see last week a childhood favorite band of mine. A lot of people will have heard of them. Blink 182. They haven't played live together in seven years. They haven't played in Australia since 2001. I was eight years old. I never thought I would get the chance to see them, but they reformed and they did a show and I got to see them. So that is my gratitude. I just can't believe that I got to see them live. I was just shaking my head in disbelief the whole time.

That's awesome. And I've grown up listening to Blink 182 in the car on many of those trips, so I kind of feel like I've grown up with them as well.

Moving on, we've got a lot to talk about. A lot's been happening in sport. Where do you want to start?

Hit it right off with the upcoming PTO in Ibiza. And what a field. And I just want to talk about the PTO a little bit. And I just think this is the future of triathlon and it's about time. I wish this was around when I was competing as a professional. It is just the answer to what the pros have been waiting for. And it's so good to see an organization get the funding, get the prize money, get the, the coverage, get what the best athletes in the world deserve, really. And it gives more incentive for future young athletes to see that there is a future in triathlon, because previously there really isn't. It's a. Basically they're doing it because they love doing this sport, which is fantastic. And that's really important that that's part of your outlook as to why you're doing whatever you're doing, whether it's football, soccer, basketball, triathlon, running, it matter. You've got to want to do the. The event not just for the prize money, but it actually makes it worthwhile now to have, you know, in this race, they're paying down to, you know, they're paying down to 30th place, and there's $600,000 up for grabs, $300,000 for male and for female, $100,000 first prize. It's really what, what should be happening in, in professional triathlon. We're not talking about age groupers in this situation. We're just really focusing on, you know, the, the pathway for a pro is just really not good. And we don't want one or two people making a living out of. Out of this sport. We'd rather have like golf or basketball or soccer where you've got hundreds of people being able to make a living out of the sport. And I think this is only going to be better for the sport. It will be interesting to see the difference between the following for the PTO and the following for Ironman, two different organizations. And are they up against each other? Probably, but not. Not really. You know, one is really focusing on the pros and the growth of the sport. Obviously through that avenue and, and having TV coverage and aiming to get the best athletes on the start list and, and in this race they're pretty much the women have got the top 10 ranked PTO athletes on the start list.

That.

That's pretty awesome. And the, and the males have got, you know, an equivalent except for probably Gustav Eden is the only standout who's not actually competing. You've got the return of Jan Frodeno which I just can't wait to see what happens. And, and it's like you know, cycling analogy of wet van a pogajar and Van der Poel. It's you know getting Brownlee, you know, Frodeno Bluenfeld, Max Newman, you know Sam Laidlaw although he's I think he's scratched now but, but there's so much depth in that race and to see these guys go head to head is going to be fantastic in a short race not an Ironman where you can actually race. And I'm not saying they. That pros don't race the Iron man. They certainly do but, but it's. It's a race where you can really have a crack where it's you know, you know an 80k and an 18k run. So there's no holds barred here. The best, the best going to win here and I just can't wait. And the women's field is so deep and you know, from a, you know, from a bias perspective we've got you know, a few Aussies in. In these races with as gentle. Her form last year was just incredible and you know, be interesting to see how she comes back after a little bit of a period where there's no races against the best competition in the world over our summer. She did race last week and she still got in the top three but it wasn't a performance that I think she'd be that happy with but to have her and Grace thick and I think Ellie Salthouse is on the start list as well so that's pretty fantastic. And in the males we've got Max Newman who's whose form has just been fantastic since Iron man last year and winning wa Iron man as well and I just can't wait to see what he can do in. In the. In the summer season in Europe. It's. He is an exciting Aussie athlete and Aaron Royal and, and the ever Cam Wurf. I mean to have him in the race it just blows yours and my.

Doesn'T he does rebate a month ago and then.

Yeah. So it's going to be an interesting field from the Aussie point of view, but, yeah, look, I just can't wait to see. And I'm really wrapped at pto. I've really, you know, they've got, they're still learning, they're still growing, they're understanding what, what it needs to take to, to get this sport to the next level as a professional sport. But it's exciting for the pros, and I think it'll be good for the amateurs for, for the sport of triath, anyway. The age group is because the sport will get more coverage, which will encourage others to join the sport, which is what we want. We want participation. That's, that's kind of what, you know, we want the world to be a healthier place. And anything you can do to get people off the couch, whether it's triathlon or just walking or doing a 5k park run, it just doesn't matter. Getting people to be a healthier and fitter version of themselves is what actually, you know, this is, what we're about on this podcast, is to, you know, and we use, we use races and, you know, exciting things that are happening around the world in the world of sport to, to get people to be motivated to get to that next training session and, and have their own little version of, you know, what, what they can do to improve themselves as an athlete.

It's a really great point you've made, and I, I, I'm so excited, like you to see such a deep field. And this is completely contrasted with the news that we'll touch on now, which is the fact that pro triathlete Colin Chartier just got done for doping epo. He came out and admitted guilt. And I don't want to spend too much on this because it's been so widely covered. Every single triathlon news source podcast out there has already covered it. A lot of pros have come out and said their thoughts about it. But it's funny what you just said about why we love watching pro sport and the excitement that creates and it's kind of that epitome that you're looking for. Um, and it inspires you to go and race. Um, but I just get so disappointed and almost you sometimes get a little bit disillusioned with the sport when this, when this stuff comes up. And it's, it does happen a lot. Um, you know, athletes do get banned constantly. And, yeah, I just, I, I remember when the Lance Armstrong stuff broke it. It completely shattered me. He was, he was absolutely, by far and away my hero growing up. And Then I just got so disillusioned with cycling. I stopped watching cycling for years after that because I just thought, well, they're all doing it. Then they came out and they said they were. And then this kind of news gets dropped, and you start to ask the same sort of questions.

You go, far out.

If he's doing it, who else is doing it? We know that testing in triathlon is actually pretty pathetic compared to cycling. Sam Long came out last year and said he hadn't been tested for months, which is just insane. Um, yeah. So, look, I. I think it was a reminder to me that I love watching the pros. Um, I love watching the best athletes in the world race. Um, but we also do do this for ourselves, and it's not just about the pro races, you know, where we. We love these sports, cycling, triathlon, running. But first and foremost, we do it for ourselves. And then you have to remember sometimes not to put athletes up on a pedestal. Even though we sit here on this podcast and. And get really excited about athletes, and we love talking about them. Um, it's just. It's a funny contrast. I don't know what your thoughts are.

Yeah, I totally agree. The individual athlete who's done the wrong thing, I'm kind of a bit amazed and agree. But disagree as well with the reaction a little bit. People have to be careful getting on their high horse. Everybody in the world makes mistakes, and some are huge, some are minor, some are everything in between. And you've just got to be careful when you start, you know, lining up people personally to criticize their actions. You know, the person isn't the demon here. It's what he did is. Is what's wrong. Person could be a lovely person, and. And, you know, we've got to be careful about the character and, And. And really, you know, putting that person into a spiral of depression. I just. I just worry that you're really setting people up for a really poor outcome for their future. And I know every decision. We say this in our podcast, every decision you make as an athlete has consequences. And I'm talking about in the race, but also outside of the racing situation. Every decision you make has consequences. So you just have to be a little bit careful on really demonizing people who make mistakes. And I'm not belittling what they're doing. And, you know, I definitely felt that when I was competing, there were people who were getting an unfair advantage, but my mindset was, look, I have no control over that. I can only control my direct method of approaching every race and every training session. And if I can be the best version of myself, no matter what happens around me, I have no control over that. And if I'm performing it the best I can, and if it's only going to give me 20th place, then, you know, so be it. I'll have to cop that. And, you know, frustratingly, later on you find out there were people doing this, that and the other thing, and that kind of, you know, sticks in your throat a little bit. So there is obviously the disappointment associated with people who are getting an unfair advantage. And, you know, it has huge consequences for prize money, for rankings, for people who are losing against these people questioning their training techniques and questioning everything about what they're doing. Why isn't this good enough? Why can't I stay up against guys who are so far ahead of me? And it turns out you can't, because they're getting an unfair advantage. So it has amazing widespread consequences for everything to do with the sport. I'm not just talking about triathlon. We are naive to think that there is only one person doing this. And just like with the Lance Armstrong thing, as much as people tried to pull him down, there were pretty much a huge percentage of people doing the same thing as he was. He was still the best athlete because, you know, there were a lot of people doing what he was doing who couldn't beat him and that they were, they were almost on the same playing field. So, you know, the fact that you, you know, I get on my high horse about AFL and it's an Australian football league here in Australia, where, you know, it, they're really proud that there's very few drug cheats in the sport. Well, I debate that. If you don't test, you're not going to find anybody. And I think triathlon's in the same, in the same position. If you don't test enough, sure, you won't find anybody. It feels like, and seems like your sport's clean. But I'm really pleased to hear now that at every event there's going to be urine tests and blood samples taken, and that should be what it should be for every professional triathlete who competes. I know it's expensive, but that's the only way that the sport can be on an even playing field. Sure, there will be people who are so far advanced scientifically that probably can beat those tests, but, you know, at least we've got to be seen to be trying and, and we've got to make it a playing, even playing, level field for everybody competing and therefore that's more enjoyable for us as spectators watching the pros. It's not going to take away from our own health and fitness and awareness of what we're doing. We're just doing our best, given the circumstances we have and doing everything within our legal measures to be the best version of ourselves. And this is another example. I do coach a lot of masters athletes who have gone to world titles all over the world and there have been some unbelievably distracting, I would call them, results that our athletes are competing against. For example, 65 to 70 year olds time trial is able to time trial at 46 to 47Ks an hour in some of these events is just to me not real. You know, I just don't think that, that these results are real and so they must be getting some help in some way. And I don't have any evidence about that except for the data. The data tells me that that's something I like to think that some of the results that I've been able to achieve as a 55 year old, 50 year old, 60 year old, now 65 year old, nearly. There's no way I'm capable of doing that. And I'm training reasonably seriously, I think. And if I'm only comparing it against myself, sure there's people who are going to be better than me, but if I'm struggling to ride 40ks an hour, I don't see how someone can be literally 4Ks an hour faster than me over 20K. So there's going to be doubt even in age group athletes. But once again, my advice to the athletes I'm coaching is you just prepare yourself the best you can. And if on the day there are people who are far and away so much superior than you, then you've just got to accept that that's what happened on that day and you, you'd be happy with your own performance. That's what's more important.

Yeah, yeah, that's spot on. The disappointing part is all the consequences that happen and this has a lot of consequences around it. Because of the amount of people he was training with, you know, he was living with Lionel Sanders, Mikhail Eden is his coach. So it potentially just puts a shadow over all these people involved. Obviously anyone that's close to him has come out straight away and distanced themselves from him, which you'd expect them to do. He said as he was doing it all alone, you know, how can you trust someone that was, has just been proven to be a liar? That's, that's the Most disappointing part is all those consequences for how much it impacts other people. And, you know, I'll be so angry if, for example, Sam Long came second at the US Open last year to him. I'd be so angry if I was Sam because he took away Sam's, you know, Sam's. Tommy would be the US Open champion. So anyway, we're. We'll move on from this one. One thing that did give me hope was the Peter Boll saga, which happened a couple of months ago, came out and he had a. A sample that tested positive. And he came out and said what every athlete says and says, I'm clean, I've given them everything. I want my name cleared. But you just as soon as someone returns a positive result, you don't trust them at all. And I was so, again, disappointed. My heart just sank when I saw that news. But everyone waited for his B sample to come back and it came back negative. And it was a false reading on the first one, the A sample. So that was actually, for me, really encouraging to hear that, oh, it's not just another hero athlete that's going to let everyone down. That gave me hope that, yeah, maybe not all the pros are actually on it. Anyway, we'll move on from this topic.

No, I agree. And look, the disappointing part about the Peter bowl was that the A sample should not have been advertised. It should have been kept in house until the B sample came out. And that would have abs. Absolutely not had people, you know, dragging his name through the mud and that that's irreparable damage. Happened to him as a reverse, you know, by association. You know, an A sample comes up doubtful and everybody jumps to the band, you know, on the bandwagon that, oh, you know, no wonder he's so good. He's cheating when in fact it wasn't the case. And. And it's hard to get that mud off once it's been thrown. So that's the disappointing part. For me, it works both ways. The consequences of doing, doing, you know, exposing that A sample before the B sample, I just think that was so disappointing and almost that deserves to be having some sort of consequences for, for clearing his name. I don't. I just think they. They brushed it aside a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, spot on. And talking about running, it's one of the topics we actually want to touch on. There was. We've had the London and Boston marathons happen in the last month and boy, there was some exciting results that we really want to talk about. And look at and I do want to just do a special mention to Australia's Brett Robinson. He is, his form is unbelievable. His marathon running is so good. He didn't run his best time at London this year, but he still came seventh in a really, really strong field. He broke the olds record back in December where in Japan he ran 2751. He's still relatively new to marathons. I think he's only done eight or nine. He moved up to the distance last couple of years, but on a recent podcast he said that he attributes his improvements and his form to just years of consistent 160 kilometer weeks. That's his training volume. And I just really wanted to touch on that because it's just something that you say over and over. But something really spe special seems to happen when athletes can put together a few years of consistency. And we're seeing that with him right now and it's really exciting. And we saw the exact same thing with Stewie McSwain's development. You know, he just put together a few really good years. Injury free, sickness free, exploded on the world stage.

Yeah, that layering we call it. You and I have really discussed this quite a bit on the podcast. The layering of fitness. The bank. You're building that fitness bank. That, that can't be. You know, the analogy of the bank is you can't take anything out of the bank because it's supposed to be secure. And that's the same thing with fitness. It just builds layer upon layer of fitness, week in, month in, year in. And we've got so many examples of age groupers who have stayed consistent. And we also have lots of examples, I really want to make this point of those athletes that we do train who want to train with us for 12 weeks and then take two or three months and then come back to us for another 16 week block and then take two or three months away again, then come back to us for another. And the growth between those two parallel athletes is absolutely now so exposed. What happens to the guy who stays consistent? He just builds layer upon layer and eventually does the Brett Robertson, which is Stuart McSwain, which is just all of a sudden it's not all of a sudden, it's two or three years of layers of fitness becomes the athlete that he should be. Whereas when you look at the person who off the program, he might do that 12 week block and get to 80 or 85% of his potential fitness goal and then takes two or three months off, no matter what his best intentions or her best Intentions are their fitness drops back to 50 or 60% and then we spend the next six of the 18 week block getting them back to where they were and then we can only then proceed to go forward. So that layer of building that we're talking about isn't the same. And the athletes who are on and off with the inconsistency, they're the ones who don't have the improvement that we're talking about with even the pros and filters right through down to the amateurs. The age group as we've found to be phenomenal. Those in our second or third or fourth years with us on the program are the ones that are hitting their straps.

Yeah, it's awesome to see and it's just a really good reminder as always. So I want to talk about the actual races and then I want to start with the Boston Marathon. You know, there's, there's six major marathons. Is that right there? To five. New York, London, Tokyo.

It's an interesting one that people want to put their, their marathon up as a major, but it will be like the, the tennis one day and, and the monuments in cycling and the world championships in other sports. But yes, there are some certain marathons. But I just think, I look at now the fastest marathon in Berlin is that, you know, the top, the top sort of eight times in the world are all run at Berlin.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, Kipchoge ran at Boston, his second time, I think competing at Boston and he is touted as one of the greatest runners ever, let alone marathon runner, marathon runners ever. And he lost, he lost the race. He came eighth. He had a big blow up and there's a lot of speculation about like what happened. And I thought it was really cool to see an athlete who just seemed so invincible. He just seemed like a robot. The way he could throw together his performances. Actually have a bad day and it happens to people. And a few things went wrong. He, he missed his, missed his bottle at the 30 kilometer mark. He said he had left leg problems. There was, I saw a really interesting video online where someone was comparing the fact that he was still wearing the Nike Alpha Flyers and the top three runners of the race were all in Asics, I think and supposedly because it was a wet day, the, the Nikes don't drain the water as well as the Asics and you know, over a marathon distance that could have a really big impact. But yeah, it was, it was good in a way to see him have a bad day. And also dad, the way he responded afterwards was just so impressive. He was just so gracious and humble in defeat. And it was an awesome way that we should all take a learning from for when you have a bad race, how to handle it.

Yeah, I'm really unashamedly saying I'm in love with Wout Van Aert and the way he races. And I'm in love with Kipchoge the way he races. And it's not just about their racing. It's about how they hold themselves in any situation. They don't spit the dummy. They accept that they're going to have a bad day at some stage in their career. And let's face it, both of those examples haven't had too many bad days, but they're not winning every single time they're racing on. Kipchoge is pretty much doing that. But, but you know, the competition now from Kelvin Kipton is, is right there a guy who's actually run 15 seconds slower than him. You know, last week at London and you know, now game on. And, and it's kind of a little bit sad because Kipchoge is coming to the end of his career and is he. Has he got another one of those two hour marathons in him? Whereas this guy seems to be just the next best thing. And, and his time is just far and above better than anybody else except for Kipchoge. Had Kipchoge not been around, he's. He would have been the world record holder and the fastest marathoner ever to ever to, you know, start the start line. And, and you know, I just think this is so exciting for marathon, for the sport of marathon. Yeah.

Let's touch on Calvin Kipton's performance at London. So as you just said, it was the second fastest marathon time ever, which the fast times are at Berlin. But he's, he's around 2 hours, 1 minute 25 seconds, which is. Yeah. 16 seconds behind.

Kitchen. Yeah.

In the rain, you know, slower course. Yeah. I saw this great infograph online. Someone had put together how the London course is potentially slower, like where you'd lose time compared to Berlin. And they calculated how do you run the same way in Berlin. And it would have equated to like a 159, 50. I can't remember how they worked it out, but it was pretty funny to see that. Like he's absolutely flying. But the funniest part about this, and I'm sure the listeners will like hearing this, it's your favorite thing to see is that he did the most insane negative split ever. He did the Fastest second half of a marathon by country mile. I think his first, his first half marathon was an hour one or something. And then he came home in 59, 45. So he's gone sub 60 in the back end and he was absolutely motoring. I think there was two, the 30 to 35K and 35K to 30, 40K. He's run sub 14 minutes for both of those 5Ks. It's just absolutely flying. He blew the field apart. It was quite scary to watch. And so, yeah, like you're saying him versus Kipchoge is going to be pretty.

Awesome to watch and not to put a dampener on it, but instantly I see something like that. Just after we talked about the drug fiasco in triathlon, you got this impression that if it's so outstanding, can it be real? And therefore can Kipchoge's results be all real? And that's what the problem with when you start hearing about people who are getting an unfair advantage and all of a sudden you can't trust anything anymore. But let's just not go down that track. Let's just go down with what we're seeing. And at the moment, the one thing I wanted to talk about just quickly on that was his execution. And when we compare his execution, which ended up being 13 seconds slower than Kipchoge's best ever, he was a minute behind Kipchoge at halfway. If you compare both events, and for anybody out there who doubts that running a negative split is the best way to go, and Kipchoge ran a negative split that day as well, by the way, and I've said this many times, every single marathon or every single event that's 10k or above, the negative split is the world's fastest time. And you very rarely get someone who runs a 59 first half and then can hang on to run a 60 second half or 61 second half to get a 201, they're going to more likely run a 62 or 63. You know, there's so many examples in training where I can do my third best effort at, you know, after I'm trying to do three efforts at the same level, my third one's always better. Your body seems to warm up to the task better than trying to do it. Earlier I saw a great YouTube video and I'm getting off the topic. I know we haven't got much time, but a guy who's a really gun runner, he's able to run 229. It's his PB. So he was at the pointy end of the field and he did this vlog on YouTube and I, I just thought I'd just watch this to see what it was about. And he was talking about his goal and it was beautifully filmed. He had people everywhere, all over the course with videos and he put together this fantastic 30 minute video on, on his race. And he was trying to run 227, I think, or just beat his 229, but he had aspirations of a 225, which is the pointy end of running. He's a gun runner, this guy. Anyway, I start watching the video and he's talking as he's running. That's how comfortable he is in the first half of this race. He is talking on his phone filming himself running in the first 5 10k. So.

So this guy really some time there.

Yeah, he's really on top of it and he's, he's in this pack of runners of 15 and he, and they're really running along and he's hiding in the pack and he's getting his nutrition. He's talking about how he's doing all the right things. He was doing all the right things except the pack he was with was the wrong pack. And they went through halfway in 111 and this guy's a 229Runner. And I'm, I'm halfway through the video yelling at the video going, you're in the wrong pack. And I don't know what his outcome was. I don't know whether he was going to do the result or not. But already if I was his coach at halfway, I'd been going, what the hell are you doing? He's run a 1:11. So that's going to be equating to if he runs a negative split, a 1, a 222 or under, which is going to be a 7 minute PB, which this is not possible as an age grouper. I don't care what you say, you're not going to do that at that end. As a 3 hour 30 runner, it's possible to run 7 minute PB. At 4 hour marathon runner. It's definitely possible to run, you know, that fast, faster. Anyway, the story progresses and he just gets slower and slower and slower and he ends up running a 1:18 second half and finishes with a 229. So he still breaks 2:30, but it's a horrible feeling. He's talking about how bad it was and he gets to the end and I interview him and he, you know, it's all Emotional. And he's in. His partner's there and it's. And it's a fantastic little video. And the one thing that stuck in my throat was. And he said, oh, clearly I'm not fit enough for this. I need to train better. And I'm yelling at the screen, no, mate, your execution caused the whole problem. You actually would have done probably a 227 had you run through in 124 and come home in 123. Sorry. 114 and 113. You would end up with a 225. And so he didn't actually understand what he did wrong. And therefore he's going to make the same mistake again. And until you realize what you're actually doing wrong. And I think it was intentional by Kevin Kipton to run that way and understanding that a slow, conservative start compared to your own ability is what you should be doing and not run with a group of people who are way above what you're supposed to be doing. You will get the best outcome.

Yeah. So exciting to watch. Yeah. Kipton's performance. And then I want to touch on some others who are absolute, absolute standout performances. And one is the winner of the London Women's Marathon, which is Safan Hassan. And this is so impressive because of, because of one. This is her first ever marathon. Marathon debut. And she wins. But she's 5k and 10k Olympic champ. She's. Her ability to change distances is just absolutely incredible. She's one of all round, one of the greatest runners all round. You know, you normally get a runner that specializes in a distance, but her times from 800 all the way up to the marathon now are just absolutely insane. She's the only ever athlete, male or female, to win the 1500 and the 10k at world champs. And she's only the second woman ever to win the 5k and 10k double at the Olympics. And her 800 time was 156, which is world class. There's not many women around the world that can run 156, 1500, 351. The gold medal was won at the Olympics in 354, 355 last year. PB of 351 is just off world record. She runs a 4:12 mile. Her 5k PB is 14:22. Yep. And the marathon time was 218. I just think that performance in your marathon debut is just, is just ridiculous. It's just, it's kind of freaky to be honest, to see that happen. So it was really cool to watch. Everyone was wondering how she was going to go in her marathon debut and far out. That was, that was incredible.

Well, yeah, Jordan, it's a great, great mention of her because I've watched her run Diamond League and she has got the best kick going round in, in women's and men's sport. You know, no matter what the situation, you, you wouldn't back against her if she's right there with a lap to go. And I was watching the finish of the women's London Marathon and I was thinking, because there was four women who potentially could have won that race. And don't forget she had to stop and stretch because she had a little tight quad halfway through the race. And then when I was watching it, I think it was the 30 kilometer drink station or 35 kilometer drink station, she missed it. So she turned and ran back to get her drink and then caught back up. And so here she was sitting in a pack of five girls. You don't have this very often, five people going to the finish line. And I was thinking, do these girls, they must have to do something because they know how good a sprinter she is. But the only unknown is can she sprint at the end of a marathon? And she's sitting there just, just biting her time and one of the other girls really put the hammer down and dropped one of the other girls. So it was down to four then, then she did another surge and dropped the other one. So it's down to three and then they all ran together and then there was like 600 to go, 500 to go. And I'm thinking what is, what's going to happen here? It was so exciting to watch. And, and Hassan, she just waited for 300 and then just ran a 52nd last 301 by 10 meters. And it was just someone who waited patiently, knew her strengths and executed to perfection and ran a 288.

Yeah, yeah. And God, sprinting at the end of a marathon. I just couldn't think of anything worse. And the exact same thing happened in Boston. Both Chipette who won the Evans Chipotle who won the men's marathon and Helen O' Beiri won the women's. Both won by less than 15 seconds, which I just think that's so brutal in a marathon. Yeah. Just happened to having to get to the end with those heavy legs and do a sprint. Yeah, I couldn't think of much worse.

Well, don't forget Ironman, Texas a couple of weeks ago there was a three way finish in the men's Event with, like, there was only, I think, 20 seconds between first, second, and third. I mean, at the end of an.

Hour.

It comes down to the mindset, you know, and obviously the physical is important. You are either coming home strong or just running to a good pace or fading. You're in one of those three camps, aren't you? So, you know, you can still change your mindset. No matter which camp you're in there, if you're exhausted and you've got nothing left, you are amazed if there's a. You know, the old analogy is if there's a tiger chasing you, you'll do unbelievable things to get away from it, no matter how tired you are. And. And that's one of the things I used to tell you guys as little kids is, you know, finish strong because, you know, imagine there's a tiger chasing you, then you'll have a different mindset. You know, you fight for life rather than fight for the sprint. So it is an interesting thing that the person who's got the will to win will probably prevail.

Talking. Talking about winning races and a winning mindset. I want to finish off by switching back to cycling. And the spring classics races have finished, but all the major ones and the minor ones basically for the season, as we start to get into the Grand Tour season. But there's some. Just some athletes I wanted to touch on. And. And the first is Demi Bollering, who had one of the most incredible spring classic seasons in women's history. In women's cycling history. She's probably only eclipsed by one other person, but she came first, and that's. Her coach is Anna van der Bragen, her coach.

I didn't know that she's the other person to have done those last three events.

Yeah, yeah, she. She got. This season, she got first at Stradiv Yankee, first, first at Dawesville, Delanderin, first Amsel Gold, first La Fleche Wallone, first Liege, Gaston Liege, and second at Tour Flanders and behind her teammate. So, you know, you could argue that if your teammates up the road, you might not be chasing them, but that is a ridiculous season. And as you just said, I didn't know Anna van der Breggen was coaching her, but she did basically the same thing in 2018, but she actually won Flanders and Leage. So I just think that is a incredible season that's worth highlighting and also because of the way she races. And again, this is why we love watching pros, to see how they go about their tactics. She won so many of these races by taking the race on, which is exactly what you say if you want to give yourself a chance to win, you've got to do daring moves. And she had so many moves where she was 15k out, 30k out, and she was really going for it and they didn't all stick, but she did still end up winning the race. And so I think you're putting yourself in that position. You're giving yourself a better chance at actually winning. And these results a proof of that.

Yeah, showing some aggression and asking yourself at certain times in the race, is this the moment and taking those opportunities. And, you know, we do talk about in, you know, I've been trying to give some advice to a lot of age groupers when they're coming up for their most recent races about, you know, following your plan, but taking opportunities to race when it presents itself. And, and we are all about consistency and, you know, negative splitting and, and running and riding and swimming to a pace. They're all things advocate at the top of our list. But we also advocate that we want you to race and those opportunities will come and you have to take them. And the guys who set themselves and girls who set themselves apart from the rest of the field are the ones taking those opportunities when they present themselves. And she's done that absolutely beautifully almost every event. When it counts the most, she's the one who steps up. And we've always said you want to attack the field when they're on their knees, that's the best time, even though you're still on your knees as well. What do I mean by that? When the field's suffering the most, when they're huffing and puffing the most, that's the time to attack because that will destroy the mindset of the others. And you're bluffing in some way, but you only need sometimes 10 meters, and that 10 meters can end up being 50 meters. And then all of a sudden the field starts racing or riding for second. How many examples have we seen where people have got away solo and the best riders in the world, whether there's three of them or 10 of them, never catch the them, you know, nine out of 10 times they'll never get caught unless there's someone with a vested interest or a teammate who will bury themselves to bridge the gap? So, you know she's done so, so well in, in being able to repeat. And, you know, the others know that she's strong, the others know she's winning, yet she still makes the moves. And, and I often ask the question, how do pros beat pros? Well, it's moments in the race that you catch people unawares or. Or that, you know, you're basically testing the metal of other people when it hurts the most. And, you know, no matter how good a form you're in, if you're struggling at a moment and someone attacks you, you know that, oh, God, I'm not. I'm not up for that. I need to. I need to, you know, wait a bit. And that's the winning move. So, yeah, I just think it's brilliant.

Yeah. And you spoke about this a little bit in the last podcast episode, but on the male side of things, it's just there are select few riders that seem to be winning everything with these last few races done. Now, it's actually. If you look at the last nine Monument races on the men's side, three riders have won seven of the nine. So Van der Poel's won Milan, San Remo, Flanders and Roubaix. Remco's won Liege. Bastard. On Liege twice. And the Pogs won Flanders and Lombardia. And the Pog potentially could have won Liege, but he crashed out, so didn't get his chance. But for, you know, those three riders, they're exactly what you're talking about. Vanderpoel, Remco and Pog, they just make those moments happen when the race seems to be the hardest. I feel like Remco is a. Is a gun for that. He just seems to turn the screws when guys are hurting the most. And Tom Pidcop was with Remco, and Remco just rode away from him. He. He called him through for a turn. Peacock said, nah, I'm too stuffed. And Remco just rode away from him, which Peacock said he was on his limit. And then Remco right away. It was pretty special to watch, and it's been pretty special to watch these guys race the last couple of years.

Good lesson for those listening, too. With what Pidcock did, I watched his interview and he said, if I'd have kept with Remco, I would have possibly finished out of the top 10, because I would have blown myself to pieces trying to keep up with him. So I limited my losses and I was willing to risk it with the group behind and back myself in. And that's a tactic that can be used as well. So there's, you know, there's more than one way to actually get a result. And I'm not talking about, obviously, Remco was too good on the day, and Pidcock realized That and he was basically riding for second, which is something that you wouldn't advocate to anybody. You're trying to do your best and should you stay with him and risk everything and come first or nothing? And there's another debate for discussion there down the track. But I admire him for thinking things through and living to fight another day. But you've got those three riders plus Wout Van Aert and Roglich and you know, I just can't wait for the Giro that's coming up and, and it's such an exciting race to see how Demi goes and how the male races pan out because it's a really, you know, good field that's assembled for the Giro. And, and can Demi Vollering do that as a Tour stage rider? That's the next thing for me is to see, you know, can she match what she's done as a one day classic rider in a stage race. I think she. He's definitely capable of doing that. So, yeah, I'm excited to see what's. What's coming up and look forward to, but disappointed that Liege Baston didn't get the Remco vs Pogicha showdown. But that's racing, isn't it? And you know, you can only race who's there at the end. And if the Pog crashes, that's part of racing.

Yep. Will be interesting to see the Pogs form because he literally has to have six weeks off the bike. Like it was quite a bad crash in his arm. So he's taking full time off training. So how will he go getting back into form for the Tour to France? Not sure we'll find out, but we'll leave it there for this episode. So much has been happening. We're so excited to talk about all these events. It's been so cool to watch so many of these different races. Marathons, cycling races. The, yeah, the PTO race that's coming up is actually going to be so awesome to finally get to see Jan Frodeno and Christian Blummerfeld go head to head. That's going to be awesome. And as you said, the 10 best female triathletes are all on the start line, which is going to be super exciting. So that's it from us. Anything else from you before we finish?

No, look, we're really coming into the summer racing series in the northern hemisphere and it's obviously the winter time in the southern hemisphere in Australia, so we've got lots to look forward to. Lots of viewing on telly, lots of races that we can stay up till all hours of the night, you know, dissecting and watching and. And for everybody out there listening. You can learn so much by watching the professionals and how they go about it and how they prepare and how they execute. They won't always get it right. And that's what we're trying to point out. There's mistakes being made everywhere, but if you're not willing to learn by your mistakes, you might as well not race. And it should be the odds 1 out of 10 will work. And if you've tried 9 out of 10, that's, in my opinion, better than just know, expecting to win every time and put that pressure on yourself. It's all about the, you know, the preparation, the journey, and then getting to race day and just doing the best you can on the day and being in tune with, you know, moves that are being made and the pace you're trying to ride, swim and run at or ride at if you're a cyclist, or run at if you're a marathon runner and getting those things right. And, you know, the example I gave with the 229runner, that, that is an example of people not actually getting it right and then not realizing what they did wrong. And these are things that I think that if you can get something out of this podcast today, when we talk about the elite people, there is lots of lessons to be learned for the everyday age grouper who's wanting to get a better version of themselves.

Yep, spot on. That's a great way to finish. Thanks as always, for listening and we'll see you in the next episode. Sam.