From Total Burn Out to Winning In 6 Months - Bonus Ep with Trekky Johnstone

Yeah, it was. It was a rough time and not something I expected from the year. You know, this is essentially my, like, dream to be. To be doing this and. And certainly in. In the middle of it, it was. It was not a dream. It was more of a nightmare. And, yeah, I wanted to go home and not do it anymore.

This podcast is brought to you by Tribalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Tribalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Trekkie. Welcome back to another episode. Thank you for joining us.

Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's been a big season for me, obviously, so I'm keen to, yeah, recap it with you guys after we chatted about it before it all kind of happened and went down. So. Yeah.

Yeah, well, let's dive straight into it because, yeah, we spoke to you at the start of the season on this podcast and then you guys spoke a few times throughout the season on the Alt Route podcast and gave some updates and you had a wide range of results. You were very excited at the start of the season for what was to come. You felt like you were in good form. You changed coaches. So a lot has happened. So can you start with a bit of a. Overview of the season, Give us a bit of a recap. How do you judge the season and what are your reflections right now?

Yeah, I mean, it was. How do I say, up and down the season? I would, yeah, refer to it as. I mean, like, like, like you say. When we started, I was really excited and I kind of changed coaches midway through the summer, once I knew I was doing the. The American Series, the lifetime Grand Prix, and wanted to, you know, step up and go to a new level so I could compete at the front. Not only just, you know, take on the races, but. But I wanted to be in the front and it went quite well. I mean, that summer training period was really good and, you know, I felt like I did that sea odd around the first one. Just we spoke the night before that, I think, and that was pretty early in my. My training phase and I was really happy. I think I was like 6 in the. In the Grand Prix points there, which was pretty solid, like a good start. And yeah, so that was the building phase and I was confident with, yeah, the. The rest to come. And then, yeah, did a huge block for Unbound, the really long race in our season, which also went really well. And I think I got over There. I got back over there in really good shape for that, and then had a mechanical in the race with the. The mud and stuff that Nick of I know, I've spoken out about as well. And then I think that's kind of where it went wrong for me. Like, I. I had the frustration of that poor result in the second round, went to altitude the day after that because the next few races are at altitude for us. And literally on the Monday, got stuck into, you know, some big hours for the next few weeks, and then I. I pretty much trained myself into a hole, which I've never done before. Um, and I can only attribute that to the altitude and obviously, obviously doing too much. Um, and, yeah, you know, it was hard to kind of convey these feelings to my coach at the time who was in Spain. And he's. He's a great coach, does a really good job, but in terms of, like, that communication breakdown, I think it just. It was like, I say, hard to kind of communicate how I was feeling, and I typically, I guess, overdo it or. Or at least do what's prescribed, even if I'm not feeling so great or all that sort of thing. And it just worked against me. And I was absolutely creeping by the midpoint of the year more than I ever have before, you know, and it was, yeah, like I spoke about the Nick, like, this is the most of. Most focus I've put into my cycling in 20 years, say. And I was having some of the worst feelings on the bike I've ever had, which it's pretty crazy to think.

Yeah.

So it was a matter of, like, trying to get out of that hole and had some really poor results in the middle of the season. Fortunately, we can drop a couple of races in out of the seven. So I was, you know, by the skin of my teeth, kind of just hanging in there. And, yeah, I just had to trust myself. And in the end, I ended up, yeah, kind of separating from that coach and just kind of going back to my roots of what I kind of know about myself and what I've always done, and went back to my old coach, Ben Hill, and, yeah, we managed to salvage, like, some pretty good results towards the end of the season, which, to be honest, it's shaped the next couple of years of my life, I would say.

Wow.

Just the fact that I held strong through there and came back, because if I hadn't had the result results at the end, I wouldn't be going back next year for sure. And, yeah, I mean, who knows what happens next year, but like, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty crazy how it all turned around. And yeah, I'm pretty proud of myself that I, that I was able to like stick with it and turn it around and, and just trust my instinct a bit.

Right.

Like, I've done this a long time and that's a really hard thing to do, I find. And yeah, I'm proud that I was able to do that and it paid off in the end, which I honestly did not think I was going to get back to that level this year and compete with those guys. And in the end I ended up beating all the Grand Prix guys in the last race and second in the race itself. So, yeah, it was an up and down season.

There's heaps in that. I really want to dive into the specifics of that period where it really went downhill, um, because it's just so. One, it's fascinating. But two, it's so necessary for us to learn as, as age groupers and athletes because people do that. So, so talk to that process. How did that start and what was the specifics around the training and the volume that you were doing to get you into that hole compared to normal? And in hindsight it was, it was just volume or was a combination of volume and altitude, like you said? Um, can you, can you give us a bit of an insight into that?

Yeah, I think, I think what happened was I did these huge training weeks back home after, after our first round, Sea Otter. We had about six weeks until unbound and I, I had an easy week after Sea Otter and traveled home, which was fine. And then I got really stuck into it back here, which you have to do. I mean, we're doing a race that's 10 hours long, so you have to do that volume and obviously you need to do that like kind of fatigued endurance work, like, like fatigue resistance and stuff, which I was doing a lot of and, and enjoying it and also really starting to move well towards the end of that block, like a month or so, you know, I was doing like eight, nine hour rides. There was the last week I did, I think I did three or three, like nine or ten hour rides in, in this week. And um, and with efforts in the end, like in the last part and stuff, which is pretty gnarly to think. And I think at that point I was just on the edge of doing too much, but I was still hanging on to it and still going well. And the last one I did, I nailed and was even blowing myself away. The numbers I was doing in this final hour of nine hours or whatever, which is great. And I think that's the type of training you, you need to do and I'll stick with something like that next year. But what happened was that the fatigue from that is retained, right. Whether you to the race, whether you win the race, whether you get like 100ks in or bloody 16ks in. Like I didn't have a mechanical and I rode to like the first feed in my 11 tooth chain chainring and you know, I was just frustrated with the day and how it all planned out and which is, which doesn't really matter so much. Like the race is the race, but if you've done that work in the training like three or four weeks of 25 hours plus 30 hour weeks, you just need to recover from that anyway. Like whether you do the race or not, it's, it's sort of like that block of training. You really need to focus on recovering from that. Um, and I think just with the frustration of the race, I was straight under my coach and I. The, the next race we had was a high altitude like climbing race and I was just really eager to, to make amends for what had happened that day in the second round at Unbound. And yeah, it, you know, we started doing more of these longer fatigued rides with if it's in the, in the final part, but also with the factor of altitude which coming from Australia, I mean I've raced at altitude before in Europe and stuff, but it's not, it's not the same as doing, you know, I was living at altitude and, and doing seven hour training rides or six hour training rides with intervals and stuff. That takes a proper toll and, and that's, you know, that's like races, you know, that's like a big race and I'm doing that a couple times a week. So I think yeah, it's, it's something I really need to work on for next year and I think, you know, even say if I just came flew from Oz to the altitude race like Leadville or something, I think just my base fitness level without any altitude preparation or, or training, I would be better than what I was this year just from that hole that I got into. So yeah, I think that's what it came down to like just doing that unbound training block which has to be done. But you also need to really consider recovering from that.

Yeah, it's such a sliding door moment too Trekkie that we kind of spoke about before. As much as you're going into the Lifetime series and you Think of it as a whole. Unbound was definitely your. A race and one that you thought suited you so well. And I mean, if you had a result there, you're probably pretty stoked. You take the time to recover and you don't fall into that hole and something happens out of your control. And the athlete mentality is. I'll just put that one past me. I'll focus on the next race. And that may be where that communication with you, the coach, and that barrier there may have affected that also not being able to properly communicate that and been like, irrespective of the race not going the way that it planned, you still did that massive load. Let's pare it back a bit and reload again. So just something that out of your control to have such an impact on your season, I think is a great lesson to everyone and all athletes to be able to step back and have that bit of perspective. All communication with their coach.

Yeah, I think so. I think it's. I think it's paramount to, you know, and especially in a series like we're doing, like, it's not. We don't have just two or three races a year. You know, it's like it's a series and every race kind of counts. And yeah, like, it. It took three races out of my series, basically, you know, so it's, It's. It's a hard pill to swallow when you get to that point because it's not an instant recovery. Like, you can't just. You can't just take a week off and be flying again. It's like, have to rebuild and take it slowly and. And that's what I did. And yeah, I mean, like I say I was. I was really proud of myself and pleased that I got out of that kind of spot because I, like, I say in many, many years of doing this, I've never had that happen. Like, I, Yeah, I. I put so much into it that, yeah, it was too much. And. And in the end, it. It fell in a heap and yeah, I had to kind of rebuild. But like I say, go back to my roots and go listen to your body, which is something I'm really not good at doing. I'm. I'm way better at reading my training schedule and. Yeah, yeah, I'm really not good. Really not good at listening to my body, I don't think. Which it seems strange to be this far down the track and still have that struggle, but I think a lot of people do. And I'm way better at just reading my program and going and giving a crack and to the best that I can and, and I think pretty, pretty successfully usually. But, you know, when you're in that spot, that's not the solution you have. You have to just like, yeah, listen to what your body's saying. And if you can't perform like, you know, at 60 of what you normally would or 50, then that's a problem and you need to stop it there. And, yeah, rewind and, and, and reassess for sure.

There's so many cool lessons in this, and I really want to focus on the recovery side because I think that it's so important for so many athletes to understand and get your perspective on. We happened to speak to Dill Johnson at the end of his season last year, and he had the same kind of sentiment that he just felt completely overworked and he was just flat by the end of the season and he was, he was thinking himself and he commented on the podcast about what he would change for next year. And he just said the relentless races and the relentless training sessions you do for the races just got to him and he was completely cooked by the end. Are you finding that a lot of the guys and girls in the series are having the same sort of sentiment and are getting completely overcooked? Is it just a scheduling thing? It's just the nature of the event that you have to be that prepared. Are you, are you seeing that kind of pattern among a lot of other athletes?

Yeah, I think so. And I think the Americans typically have like, a very structured off season and, and you know, they hang it up in October. I think even the Grand Prix runs a little bit longer than they'd like into the end of October. Kind of the same dive I kind of get from the field is that they're, they're kind of tired by that point and which for me, it's, it's, it's kind of okay. Even though, like, I didn't manage the mid part well. But that wasn't just a, like, you know, I wasn't tired from racing. I was just, it was just how it went with the altitude etc, but for me, it's like that there's almost an advantage that it runs quite long because, you know, in the past I've mountain biked through the, through the winter and stage races and this and that. And then coming into the summer, like, I'm, I'm doing the road racing and, and road nets and stuff. So to be going like kind of year year round is, you know, not so foreign to me. So it's the longer, like if we were racing, if we had a couple of more rounds, you know, in November, I wouldn't have been mad about it because I was form, I was, I was going well. And yeah, you know, it's, it's not such a stretch for me to, to go that long and I think. But for sure, like you see the ebbs and flows of people within the series that, you know, like Alexi at the first race, Sea Otter, he wasn't, he was way back. Not, you know, not. Not going well at all. But then come the midpoint, he's like one of the guys winning the races and right in the front and, and yeah, so it just, it is a long season for sure. And I mean it's, it's not like the races were doing each one pretty much apart from the short Schormergen race. They're big events, right? Like taking proper tolls on, on bodies, long, really long races, hard like altitude climbing, all this. So for sure, you know, it's not like, it's not like they're small races that you're able to, you know, bounce back from week on week. It's like, yeah, it takes a toll and, and everyone's kind of chucking extra events in, in between the Grand Prix rounds. For sure. I was as well. But yeah, I mean, like I say, for me it's not so foreign to be going well at least, at least to have to, you know, manage that and over a long period of time and manage to shape, come down and up when you need to and I guess rest. But I mean, yeah, in terms of learning, I've learned a lot this year. More than, more than I have ever. And to kind of come out of it with, with all those lessons and, and also with some success, it's like, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good year for me.

Keep diving into it. So in terms of learnings, I want to start with a really specific question. What would you change recovery wise, if to, to avoid that hole? I mean, how do you get that balance right between the workload that's required and the races? And then obviously your racing schedule changed and what if you had to change something? What would you change to get that recovery right?

Yeah, I think for me, next year I've looked at probably I'll do the first two rounds with a pretty good focus. Like I think from road nats. I can take a small break or do the Adelaide gravel race and then take a small break and build really strong Into April. Our first round is Sea Otter again. And then do the same thing, come home and do an unbound prep, prep block, do that race. And then I'm looking at maybe skipping the next one, which is the Crusher race for two reasons. Like, yeah, like we're talking about the, the manage that load. Also. I'm going to be traveling back and forward a bit more this year and I just think it's just not a race for me. Like, I think it's a bit of a, you know, risk to, to keep the training going from there and hit that one as hard as I can when I think it's probably not a race that I'm gonna, you know, hang on to in terms of points and then get going for the, you know, the last three or four is my plan. My learnings in terms of that recovery. Like, I think you can like afford to drop one race just through your kind of schedule management and then obviously there's another one to drop for a mechanical or, or whatnot that may happen and may come about.

Trekkie. I was pretty intrigued to see you announce that you're having another crack at road nats. Just with the way that now your season unfolds. It's kind of almost like a world tour. Right, or right. With a lot of your races throughout the middle of the year and then traditionally for them, road nationals is kind of pretty hard because they've had to have a break. They've only really just started coming back out. So what's your intentions for nationals and the new SBT gravel race in Adelaide? Is it to be that you'll be in top form or is it more using that as a kind of a bit of a lead in or what are your expectations around those and your plans?

Yeah, I mean, I think being at Bunning Young is, I don't know, become part of my brand, I guess, a little bit. And I really love it. And it's the last, the last one there for, you know, the foreseeable future. So yeah, for me it's a bit of a no brainer to, to get in shape and get down there in terms of expectations, I think. Yeah, like you say, it's a challenge now. Like I only had. Only took, I mean, let's call it just a week and a half off after Big Sugar, our last race in the series and started again. Yeah. A week and a half later training again and, and you know, a lot of the Americans haven't even touched it. They just start and touch their bike now, which is a month so, yeah, it's challenging and I, and I for the first time kind of felt pretty fatigued about starting to train hard again, like so soon. Like it. With so much focus on this year and, and you know, like you say, I mean, this is a normal thing for, for World tour guys. It's not, it's not so crazy. But for me, like, to have so much focus on, on my training and my, my shape throughout the year, like, literally every day it's something you're. You're striving for and to do the best job at. And it just becomes a bit tiring by, by that period, you know, six or eight months in, it's like, well, probably more 10 months. It's, you know, you start the work in for sure in January for, for April and, and the rest of the year. So, yeah, it was tiring to come and think I had to, yeah, start doing it again. But in the past, I also think I've kind of gone too long, too long out from national, so starting.

You.

Know, early October, you know, with the base for, for Nationals, and then starting my like, simulation workouts, you know, maybe six weeks out, I think has been possibly too long in the past. And, and I've done some rides, like I do these simulation sessions and, and you know, last year for sure, like three weeks before the race, I was absolutely flying and, you know, going the best I've ever gone in this, this simulation session. And then by, by the race, I think I was actually a bit overdone. So, yeah, for me it's like a bit of a forced, you know, change up in the prep and yeah, I'll just have a shorter period to get ready for it. But I think, yeah, I mean, I struggle, I'll struggle to go to Bunnyong without wanting to do the best job I can. And, and yeah, like I say, I feel like it's a bit of my brand to be there and be kind of near the front if I can. And yeah, I'll put a focus on it for sure. It's like, it's like a cool race and yeah, I always want to do well there. And like I say the last one there, it's, yeah, it's important and, and then on to, you know, that's good because I want to be going well for that. The Adelaide Gravel race, the new one that, yeah, is come on board and it's kind of, yeah, nationals kind of forces me to get ready for that as well. And then I'll come back down a bit after that.

It's A really awesome lesson here for the listeners, especially any Ironman or endurance athletes. How much emphasis you put on the simulation sessions. And I mean doing 3, 8, 9, 10 hour rides in a week is just out of control. You know, for a lot of Ironman athletes, building up to a five or six hour or seven hour kind of simulation day is the main max they'll ever do. So it's really encouraging to see how much you're willing to push it, albeit being a professional athlete. 1 what is your recovery from those rides? What are you doing specifically? Are you having complete day off the day after, a couple of days after this? I think this is really important people to know when they're doing their own kind of simulation sessions akin to their event.

Yeah, yeah, well for sure. And, and those unbound kind of simulation rides something else. And you know my learning from this year is that I wasn't resting enough after, after days like that. That with this, with the coach I had at the time, it was like that was, that was the kind of endurance simulation although it had pretty high intensity intervals towards the end and then the next day we might have like kind of more VO2 workouts and stuff or in the days to follow, which it's just too much, you know, like yeah, say, say you did, say say you did like a, you know, any kind of 6 or 78 hour training ride regardless of what you did within that ride. That, that's fatiguing and really doesn't matter how I mean the pace even like if you're sitting on a bike for that long, it's like that's mentally and physically fatiguing and, and that, that can't be underestimated for sure. So yeah, my learnings are that they're required like those, those long simulation days and, and you know, the race kind of efforts towards the end fatigued. I definitely think they're required. But yeah like you say, and that's something I think I did incorrectly is, is not put enough emphasis, emphasis on, on recovery in the days after. Like you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do an iron man and then, and then go and train the next day. Like this is not what you do or you know, you probably have a week off or whatever, you know, like so without going. Obviously your simulations don't need to completely simulate the effort of a race. But yeah, it's important to be mindful and yeah, it's a good learning that I've, I've come across this year and will carry into next year for sure.

It's such a great example of a season and how to manage a season. You literally went through such an extreme range of ups and downs. And Nick actually want to throw this to you and. And say, watching Trekkie and watching his results, what were you thinking watching that happen? And then how did you see the whole turnaround and the back end as a cyclist and coach yourself? Yeah. What was your perspective watching from the outside?

It was really interesting. I've always kind of watched Trekkie from afar. And then it's only kind of since we started doing the podcast together that we spent a bit more time together and learn a bit more about Trekkie and get to know him, I guess, from the outside. Kind of always look at Trekkie that's always performing well, doesn't really ever seem to have any issues like ups and downs. Always super consistent, mentally, very strong. And then doing some of the episodes with Trekkie throughout the year, you could really tell, even mentally, that he was a bit down as well as physically. So that was really interesting to see and almost kind of humanizes people in a way, because you put up these elite athletes on a pedestal and think that everything's always going well for them or everything's perfect with training or whatever. But to be over in America without your family, struggling with races, training. Yeah, I think it's really probably important just for the everyday athlete to see that no matter what level you are, you go through ups and downs. But, you know, I guess Trekkie showed the class of athlete that he is to be able to turn things around. And I don't think we can underestimate just how good the athletes are in America doing the gravel. Like, you've got World Tour riders over there. I mean, we've always spoken about Keegan Swenson, but, like, these guys are, like, out of control. And for him to get the results he did on the back end of the year, Trekkie probably starts to get the kudos now that he deserves. It's not quite the depth here in Australia. Maybe cross mountain bike and definitely gravel, but when you see Trekkie starting to compete against these guys, yeah, I think Meow is starting to get, as I said, the kudos that he kind of deserves.

It's such an awesome point. And, yeah, talk us through Trekkie that. That tough period when it wasn't going your way, you mentioned how it started to get you down, and Nick just pointed that out then to go well. Yeah, it's not always going according to plan. And for someone that's probably used to getting consistent, good Results to go through that lull. How is that mentally on you? How did you get through that taxing period? And you're obviously super proud, as you've mentioned, that it's probably one of the proudest parts of the year that you got through it. But talk us through that lull period. What was that like?

Yeah, it was. It was tough, and it was actually nice to talk to Nick in those. Yeah, probably in the. In the depths of it, to be honest. And, yeah, like I say, it's not something I've really had to deal with so much, but, yeah, it just. It came about and it takes a while. Like, I guess you're in denial for a bit about, you know, how you're feeling and, you know, you just try and try and try each. Each session to turn it around, I guess, and get the feelings back. But when you've been at it so long, like, you just came a time where I was like, you know what? No, I. I know this is not right. I know I can be better than this, and I have been for, you know, many, many years. And. And I need to change something because. Because this is not working. Like, just trying, trying, trying again. So I guess it was that realization that. And I've had a lot of good people in my corner that I was bouncing all this off, which is. Which is really helpful and even, you know, if they're not. Not a qualified person or whatever. I think if you're just bouncing ideas of someone, maybe you get that different perspective and, and just get reassured that, you know, you may be listening to your body and it might be correct and it might be the right thing to do. And in the end, I was glad that I was able to do that. And I think, yeah, like, it's. It's. I don't know. I always like to err on the side of doing too much or. Or being, you know, the hard man or whatever. Like, that kind of perspective, which I think is important and probably gets me to where I. Where I can be or where I've got to. But at the same time, like, yeah, once you start to tip over that edge, it's like you have to kind of let go of that and. And. And, yeah, trust your feelings. So, yeah, it was. It was a rough time and not something I expected from the year. You know, this is essentially my, like, dream to be. To be doing this and. And certainly in. In the middle of it, it was. It was not a dream. It was more of a nightmare. And, yeah, I wanted to go home and not do it anymore. But I don't know. Like, I once I had those results in the last part of the season, like, I just. Each time I crossed the line, I was just in a bit of shock that, that I got to that point from where I was, you know, like. Like I was doing these interval sessions that were just embarrassing almost, and it was just completely wasting my time. And so to have that feeling in the legs and, and like, have power in the legs again and be able to, like, contest for the win and stuff, it's like. I don't know. It was, it was, yeah, really just pleasing and almost unbelievable for me.

Trekkie, I think, like, you probably went over there with not, like, overly confident. I think you knew the caliber of the athletes that were over there and then it was not going to be easy by any means, but I think whatever race that you go into, you're there to compete and you have the confidence that you're there, going to be there at the top end. Did you ever start to doubt yourself in the middle of the year and think, no, I'm actually not at this level that these guys are.

Oh, for sure. And that was the realization I'd come to. It wasn't even. I wasn't even doubting it. I was. I was pretty, pretty confident in it that I wasn't gonna get to that level. And, you know, when I went over there, like you say, I didn't. I didn't expect to be at the front, but I worked as hard as I could that I could, and I gathered everything together to kind of have the best chance at compete. Like I say, I got a new coach. I wanted to go to a new level because I knew that these, These guys, like Keegan, etc, they're not. They're at another level. And, And I did, I guess, all I could within my power to try and get there before I, Before I went. And yeah, I mean, like I say, in the mid part of the. The first race was encouraging and like, this is good, good. But by the mid part of the season, yeah, it wasn't a matter of doubting it. You know, I'd almost accepted it that I wasn't gonna be able to race with them. And yeah, yeah, it was a. It was a tough sort of realization. But I don't know, I just. It wasn't that I was thinking at that point, maybe I can get back to them. Maybe I can get. It was a matter of just thinking I just need to get feeling myself again, basically, and get feeling of power in my legs. And that was what I kind of strived for after that kind of down period. And it wasn't a matter of, yeah, I can get back and I can win races. It was a matter of like, all right, I'm. I'm still doing this. I can't go home. Like, it's not, you know, feasible to go home and just pull out now. It's like I've had people, people on this ride, on this journey supporting me. I just need to kind of, you know, if all I get by the end of the year is some good feelings and, and maybe some top tens or whatever, then, then that would be enough. And I could say that I, you know, dug myself out of that hole and, and gave it a crack till the end of the series and the end of the trip that I had planned. So. But, you know, that. That faith kind of, yeah, got me to the podium and yeah, close to the top step. So I guess that that was a big lesson of mine as well, like mentally to. And it's a new, it's a new learning for me to, to come from that level of low. Like, I've had lows in the past, but for sure, with health etc. But yeah, not so much with like, over training and that sort of thing and a big form slump. So, yeah, it was, it was a really nice thing to learn about myself and yeah, it was, it was nice to kind of dive. I mean, while at the time it wasn't so nice, but to come from there and, and back to success is like, you know, that. That has a really positive effect going forward on life and, and racing itself.

Shows how deep you were, that you were literally weighing up the options of how you could get home and whether, you know, that was feasible. And you were obviously mentally going through the logistics of. Can I actually just throw the towel in here? What was the turning point?

Absolutely. What, what. Yeah, what.

When did it turn for you and what. What were the factors that turned it, do you think?

Yeah, it's, it's funny you say that. I. And I did another podcast with Payson about, On his. His one about. And he asked the same question, I think. And so in the midpoint of our. Our series is Leadville, the big 100 mile mountain bike race in Leadville, Colorado at 3,000 meters plus elevation. And you know, on the way, like, I, I'd had. I think I took two weeks off in the middle of the season, which was due to this, like, over training. Over. Yeah, this situation that had arisen and I just had to kind of Panic and, and take two weeks off completely. And that was a couple of weeks before Leadville, I think, which is not ideal. And I pretty much thought, look, going to have to kind of throw this race as well. But I'll go and I'll do it. It's only like an hour and a half from where I was living and, and you know, at least I'll be fresher than what I have been at the other altitude races. So. Yeah, you know, and even on the way out, like, I mean sometimes the weeks before that I actually felt okay and like better than I had done given that rest and then so I had this like tiny, minuscule bit of confidence that I would be able to actually get through the race and feel some, some good feelings. But I mean even on the way it's a, it's an out and back course, right. So you just, you leave town and then you, you basically ride over a couple of pretty decent climbs and then out to the Columbine, which is like this huge peak. Maybe it takes like an hour to get up. Ish. And you just flip it at the top and then send it back down and yeah, go all the way, same way back. So the way out I actually got dropped from the front on the first main climb, which I think is maybe 20, 30K into the race. I got dropped from the front group and just, which is a bit of a disaster at that point because after this climb it's like flat roads to the bottom of the Columbine and if you're in a, if you're in the front group, you like get towed along and, and it's sweet, but I just couldn't hang with them, you know, the, the, the breathing and everything was just an issue. And it's like I just knew that if I was gonna work so hard to stay with them there, like it's a six hour race, you know, I need only what I can in the back half. And I talked to other people about it actually. It's a famous race and people know how, how kind of the toll of the, the back end of it is. So I just had to let them go there and ride my own kind of race out to Columbine. And then actually with Dylan Johnson we kind of hit the bottom of it together with maybe the marathon world champ at the time, which was, was kind of cool. And yeah, I, I knew that Dylan would be doing like a, a steady pace up the climb. He talks about his Watts all the time and I knew he would have like a set wattage which, which he knew he could sustain comfortably. And I was like, I'm just going to keep him, you know, 10 meters in front of him at the climb. And that's what I did. We, we rode up the climb kind of together pretty much, and it was just like this pace that I just seemed to be able to really comfortably, like, ride at, which is the first time I'd felt comfortable for some time on the bike, you know, in a race situation and, and not going backwards. You know, I was having these huge explosions even out in races when I, when I thought I'd conserve. You know, like, I thought I hadn't even fired a shot yet. But then when I went to fire the shot, it was just like lights out, which was, which was really strange. And, but this is the first time I was just comfortable and not drifting backwards. I was actually. We were passing people and yeah, by the top, I actually was feeling really good, which is, which is so strange. And this is actually the, the very midpoint in, in our season. Halfway. Halfway through Leadville.

Yeah, yeah.

And halfway through the series and we flip it at the top and then he was actually on a drop bar, like mountain bike, which is pretty gnarly. And I was like, I'm not gonna let him out. Like, well, we descended together basically, and then, and then just jumped on his wheel and he was motoring home and we were just passing people and this was like, in my head, you know, this was already a win for me, like, to be, to be moving forward at this point in a race. And it was really cool. And, and you know, I think I passed. I don't know, we passed maybe 10 people from there to the finish and just finishing strong as, like, that was just, you know, the result wasn't that great. I think I was 15th or 14th or something. But for me that was the turning point. And like I say, it wasn't about the results so much. It's just like, like I say, when you, when you are this deep into a career or, you know, what's a good feeling in yourself? And I hadn't had that for a while. And then, and then in Leadville, I was having this feeling towards the end of the race, which was really nice. And that was kind of where it turned around. And then after that it was a matter of like, okay, I know where I'm at, like fitness wise now. I've got a decent read on that. And now then you can comfortably like, take the rest when you need to take the rest because you're not stressed about not doing enough. Like, I had a really good read on my fitness there and, and then from then it was, yeah, I'd gone back to my old coach, Ben Hill and he, you know, our discussion was, look, you're not going to get any better from here in terms of like load or training. We all you need to do is like peak for the races. So yeah, you know, the biggest like stress here is, is, is being rested and, and you know, we want your form to be like premium on each of the races and your shape is actually not bad. Like my, my fitness was good and it was just a matter of like hitting the, the race races of targets fresh and like ready to race and feeling good and, and it really paid off. And I guess the main lesson is like, you know, I do a lot of work in the summer. Yep. And don't discount that. That work that you've done done like it's going to pay dividends towards the end of your, your, the season or, you know, your target race or whatever. You don't have to keep loading, loading, loading on top of that.

Yeah, it's, it's a great lesson because I think the mentality is a lot of the time is all of a sudden I'm not fit anymore. The fitness will never left you. Right. A lot of it is the, the mental space behind it. And as being overtrained and probably just needing to get rid of some of that load. But that is the mentality so often is, is I'm not fit anymore.

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, I was scratching my head going, how, how am I not fit? You know, I, I've done, I've done 27 hours this week at altitude. I've done 25 hours, you know, with interval, et cetera, et cetera. I've done the work. How am I not in shape? You know, that was my, that was my biggest sort of question at that time. And the natural response is like, more and more do more. Like, you know, you're, you, you obviously haven't done enough. But as I got, like I say, got to that realization within myself that I was cooked and you know, then you can start to like, reassess and take a step back and look at it, look at what you're doing and, and really like. Yeah, answer that question, I guess. How am I, how am I not fit? Well, you are. You just cooked. And yeah, it's, it's the way your.

Season unfolded is such an incredible metaphor and so similar in parallel to how I just a general gravel race when endurance race goes down. And Nick, you spoke about this when we were doing a coaching video before the Dirty Warning, how in the race you just go through so many, you know, trials and tribulations, you go up and down so much. And you really spoke about just expecting that the absolute worst can go wrong and then riding through it and then just knowing you're going to have low periods. It might be a half hour period, it might be Trekkie. It was half your season, it was a lull period akin to a race where you, you just have to get through that. And Nick, I love how you speak about that. And in a 6, 7, 8 hour, 9 hour race, you've just got to get through those periods and you can come through the back half and shine through again.

Yeah, I mean I have said that a lot of times and that is the reality of most races. But I think the difficult thing is actually when you're in those moments. I mean, I can sit here on a podcast and say you just need to work through it, but the reality is when you're in that moment, it's bloody tough as well. You know, as Trekkie found out throughout the season and even doing the Dirty Warning recently, like when you actually get into that moment, you can tell yourself it's the time. It's a rough time, you just have to work through it. But it's pretty dark patch, so it's not exactly, not easy.

Yeah, I, I guess turning it Trekkie back half. You had some unbelievable results, correct me? Exactly. You got on the podium twice. Talk us through that feeling and, and those moments.

Yeah, it was, it was good at. So the second last race was in Trinidad, Colorado, the rad gravel and it was like 170, 180ks, I think at some altitude too. Like, I think we topped out at like, did 700 meters or something. So not nothing. But I mean, not the heights of, of something like Leadville. And yeah, I was just on one of those days, like, and my confidence was building, but I still had this huge cloud of doubt over my body and, and its ability to be involved in a race even, you know, like, without without conking out and exploding. Um, and you know, within that race itself, like, I felt really good on it basically goes out, does a loop with a climb and then comes back. So the, the way out's kind of slowish and, and the way back is really quick with a kind of decent climb at the sort of furthest point. Um, but you know, the, the fast guys kind of were going maybe halfway up this Climb. And, um, I knew this is kind of the crux of the race, and. But. But I was really having a hard time trusting my. My body and. And knowing that I could actually be involved in it. So I kind of just went at this point across to maybe a group of five or six that had gone, and. And I left some kind of big names that were surrounded by me, and now they're kind of looking around like no one's coming. And I've just, like, closed this gap basically with ease. And. And at that point, that was like a turning point for me. Like, in that race itself is like. Actually, you know what? I think I want to. I think I want a good one. And if I'm able to just bridge a gap to these guys who have obviously exceptional riders and climbers just by myself and comfortably get there and then get straight into the work and. And. And, you know, push on up the climb. And I think over the top, we had only three of us with Stetner and, um, the other guy, I forget, but, um, and Alexi. So there's three of us at the top of this main climb. And at that point, I'm like, you know, we dropped a few others and they came back, but it was just a matter of, like, trusting myself and trusting my body that I was. I was on a good day. And. And these kind of poor feelings and moments had left me and. And I was able to compete. But still, even in. In the final, like, I probably should have waited for the sprint in that race. There was, like, some big hills coming back into town, like some big kind of punchy climbs. There's three of them. And, yeah, I don't know. I'm not bad in a sprint after that kind of race. And for whatever reason, just lacking confidence, I, like, attacked on the second last climb where I barely shook them. And that was my bullet, and that was the one bullet I had. And yeah, it's like looking back at it, that was just a really poor. The poor decision. And it came from the roots of, you know, just not. Not being confident and not. Not trusting myself that I could compete, but at the same time, like, third for me in that race from where I'd come from was, you know, it blew my mind. And I didn't. I didn't expect that. And, you know, and that was just a confidence thing. From there, like going into the. The final race, big Sugar and Ben. Ben Bentonville. I knew that race would suit me. And no altitude. Punchy climbs all day, however, quite chunky gravel. So there's There's a really. It's got a real reputation for flat tires and mechanical issues, which, I don't know. I wasn't. I didn't seem to be that worried about, like, when I pre rode it. But the thing was, in the race, the speed was so much higher and the, you know, in the group of 30 or 40 or 50 riders at. @ speeds that you would ride a road race at with, with rocks this big, you know, it's. Yeah, it's a different story. So I guess a little bit of my prep was maybe under done there, and I punch it twice, which wasn't ideal, but at the same thing, like, I got this punch up. Maybe 20 miles into the race, the group was still 50 or so, so moving real quick. People are trying to get away. The race is on. And for a sec, like, it went straight to the rim. And for a second I'm like, that's. That's it, you know, and this is my chance to move up in the overall. You know, I'm thinking for a split second I was like, that's my, that's my kind of title fight or, you know, series fight over. But straight away, I seem to be able to just fix it and get back into it and really work back towards the front. And, you know, I think I was three minutes back at one point, and then, yeah, it got back to the front and I was sort of like, oh, I'm back and yeah, now we can race again. And then, you know, it got down to like five of us or six maybe, and, you know, the best guys in the race, Keegan was there and, and the plugs that I'd plugged in my tire had actually come out and. But this is the kind of day I was on. You know, at that point, I. I didn't even care. I just sort of was like, oh, I'll just. I. I'll just put the plug it again, pump it up and. And get back. Like, it wasn't like, which I, Yeah, I don't get into that mindset very often. It's only. Well, for me at least certain days or times where you're, you know, you're. You're that confident or that positive, I guess, to be able to have stuff like that set you back and then, I don't know, your body is just like, on one of those days where it's. It just won't be beaten. Right. It's just like, you know, not even mentally. Can, can you beat me? Like, in terms of. Yeah, I, I didn't Ever felt like I was down and out, which, yeah, I mean, thousands of times. This happens in training and, and other races where something happens and you just throw the towel in and. But like you can't, you can't expect to have that mentality. Well, I can't expect to have the mentality every race or every track training ride that, you know, when the, when stuff goes wrong or whatever that, that you just bounce back and, and you have one of the best rides of your life. That's not something I can do every day, but, you know, it's fortunate that it happened on that day and I was able to kind of get to that, get that out of myself.

And what was your feeling after that euphoria? How, how was it? Relief?

Yeah, it was, it was, it was a strange feeling. And then I crossed the finish line there. I mean we had like a five or six way sprint and yeah, I just, I kind of hit out kind of early and, and I just, I was waiting for someone to come past me and no one was coming, you know, Keegan, Keegan was in the sprint, Alexi, and no one's coming. And I'm just thinking like, holy, you know, like, and, and even in the video, like I, I was at like kind of in shock of what was happening that I, I even sat down in, in the sprint and, and then Toby, the, The guy who actually wasn't in the Grand Prix, he. He's like just kept going and, and won the race. But it was just, just a really strange feeling to be like, yeah, hit the front and, and leave those guys behind and I was just in this weird place and second there and first in the Grand Prix was, was. It was. I just like fell in a heap over my bike at the end because I just did not expect, you know, to get to that level from, from where I was and, and I, I am. But you know, that was the day I was on. I was on such a, such a great day. And even after the second flat, as I'm coming back across this gap, I'm thinking like in my head I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to go fucking straight past them and, and that's going to be my move and I'm going to go, you know, solo from here and. But when I got back there, there was like, all the, the media cars and the, everything was like kind of blocking the road, so I, I didn't have the chance to do that. But yeah, it was special to be, to be in that mindset on that Day where it was pretty important in terms of points and. And I got the maximum points that I could have, so. Absolutely. Just chuff with. Yeah. Myself and.

Yeah.

The learnings that I was able to kind of go through and. Yeah, it's valuable.

You've had a lot of good results, Trekkie. Would you put that right up there with top five or even the best result that you've had in your career?

Yeah, I think I probably would. It's probably. I have to probably put it down as at least one of. One of the best, if not their best. Yeah, like. And like I say, it's. It's meant that I can go and do it again next year, you know, if I. It's a pretty fickle beast, like sponsorship and. And, you know, it's expensive to do it from here and without, like. I mean, unfortunately, it's like results just. Just speak dollars and sponsors and exposure, so it's not unfortunate. But, like, you know, they can be hard to come by, especially with someone like Keegan and the racist who seems to, yeah. You know, mop them all up, which. Yeah. So in terms of, like, importance and, you know, and that part, that resilience kind of, that I was able to, you know, show, um, that. Have to put that down as, yeah, one of my best ever. And, you know, I had my family there and it was just like we were flying home the next day. It was just a special, special way to finish.

I'm interested to know. I mean. Oh, sorry, shorty.

This was.

It was like a pretty big decision for you, right? You were working full time, you got into the lifetime Grand Sea Grand Prix series series, stepped away from work to focus on this and cycling to essentially become your career at this point, have you had a chance to step back and put into perspective that this is going to be viable now for you for at least the next year, given the top 10 do qualify for another spot. So, you know, essentially this could be the next couple of years. You do get to live out somewhat, you know, being a pro cyclist, given, you know, when you're a bit younger, that's what you aspire to with the mountain bike. Didn't quite happen. But now here you are, living it out.

Yeah, it is. It is funny. And if you had to say this to me, like, even a year ago, that, that this is where I'd be and this is what I'd be doing, I would have been very surprised. And, you know, it. It was a crazy step to. To even go and do it. You know, like, I've I've had a decent racing career. I've got a good setup life wise and you know, we're happy here and it was all going well and it's nice to like, you know, I had a good job and stuff. It's nice to be comfortable in that sense. So what we, what we were doing was kind of getting a bit uncomfortable which yeah, certainly when it wasn't going well was, was really uncomfortable and it was hard to even live out that experience positively like because you know, it wasn't, wasn't performing. I wasn't, you know, holidaying. I wasn't. There was not much to kind of draw from, you know, in terms of positivity. I was away from my young daughter and wife and all this. So it was a crazy step. And yeah, like I say, uncomfortable. But yeah, it's, it's paid off and to, to be able to, yeah, do it again and, and perhaps the year after we'll see. But it's, it's going to be year on year for me. Like, like I say, you know, hopefully I can form some, some longer term partnerships and make it, make it viable into the years to come. But for sure next year's kind of sorted and it's, it's nice to be in that spot and you know, being a, being a pro is, is something that like you say, I, I hadn't done in my career essentially, you know, done a lot of things but I'd never put that kind of emphasis on my racing as a full time thing. And yeah, it's a funny place to find myself at 32 years old. Tomorrow.

Oh, is it your birthday tomorrow? That's awesome. Happy birthday. What a way to finish the season with that result. And then you end up seventh overall in the series. Where do you rate that result? Because halfway through the season meant something different to how it felt at the end of the season. Where do you write seventh place overall and congratulate. Congratulations on that by the way.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean it was, it was sort of like, I think I looked at my, you know, my progression from the kind of midpoint was like, I think I was like 26 or something, 15th, third and then first in the, like that was my progression in terms of series points in the last like four races, which is pretty crazy. And yeah, I mean I think at the low point maybe I was like 20th or something in the, in the standings and it is that fickle. Like if you're running 20th, I mean you're not coming back, not from Australia, not well not unless you've got a lot of money and, and you can make it happen. But I mean, you might come back, but it's difficult. Like it's really difficult and it's going to be a passion project. But yeah, if you can push into that top 10 and like show yourself and prove yourself, like, it's certainly going to make it easier and, and more possible for me. For me I was, I wasn't set on, on doing it again and, and kind of making it as such. That was my goal, like to, to see if I could grab one of these opportunities and I knew there's opportunity over there and, and that was where I went and that was what I set out to do. But I wasn't, you know, it wasn't the be all, end all. Like I, I can happily just. And it's, it's like I say, way more comfortable just to live here and do the races you enjoy and have, have a stable job and all this. But yeah, hopefully, you know, it's worthwhile and you know, it's inspiring to my daughter that, you know, you can do something crazy and maybe it pays off and, and don't just like settle in and get comfy. You know, it was a crazy thing to do and a crazy thing to chance to take it and. But I hope it sort of paid off in the sense that, you know, like I've got a young daughter and I hope that she, you know, she obviously came with me for a part of it and saw what I was up to and, and yeah, I hope that she takes from it, you know, she's very young, but that you can do something crazy and you know, not, not to just sit around it and sort of settle in and, and take a chance on something and maybe it's a bit cliche or whatever, but, you know, for me that's, that's kind of the, what I'd settled into was a matter of, you know, steady job and obviously I've been racing all this time, but it was time that I made a crazy call and, and left my stable job and business and yeah, I, I decided that it was our time to do something, something crazy and bring them along for the ride. And yeah, I hope it's inspired her and you know, to do whatever she wants to do and perhaps others maybe, you know, I've, I've had friends that have quit their job and moved to something else that they enjoy more and especially with like, you know, a male of my kind of age. I think it's pretty, it's Pretty easy to kind of just, just stay, stay with what you're doing and not branch out and do something you love or, you know, I, I didn't never loved being an electrician, but I did it for 11 or more years and I got to the point where I was just really not enjoying it. And that was something I had to change. And it takes a lot to actually make that call. And, you know, people judge you or whatever for, yeah, going, going, training and doing all this, but it, it's something that I had to do. And I'm really glad that, that we made the call or that, you know, I made the call and made them come along.

So, so I really just want to hear from you, what is the resilience lesson? Because you said that you had a lull period, Nick, you called it and you said it's easy to tell yourself, oh, this is a hard period. Just get through it. But what specifically is the lesson here? How did you get through it? What did you do to get through it, to get through that hard part?

Yeah, I think, yeah, like Nick was saying, like, it is easy now to sit here and say, oh, just push through to get better. But for me, it was a matter of, you know, trusting and believing in where I've been before and what my body's been capable of before. And I knew that that wasn't it and that if I just hung on and just waited and was patient and took the right steps, talked to the right people, that I could get back to a respectable level. And like I say, just find that feeling again that I knew, that I knew was inside me and has been for many, many years. And yeah, that, that for me is a lesson, you know. You know, talk to people and get people who are going to reassure you that, that you will get back or that you will get through again. It's cliche, but, like, for me, I'd never lived it out. And yeah, I have spoken to a lot of people and told them this, this story and, and said that, you know, like, when, when you get to that point, maybe you never do, but those struggles where, where it's tough and, and you need to kind of just hang tight and, and ride it out. Yeah, that was my kind of lesson with it just. I don't know, I. And I didn't really have many options, like coming home was one of them, but that would have been a proper failure and I wasn't up for that. So, yeah, I just had to trust myself and trust my body. And I know I'm a Better athlete than what I was and was, you know, performing at. And, yeah, it was something I had to just kind of ride out. And yeah, like you say within. Within endurance sport, that's the thing that happens in every race. You know, even, you know, the guys at the front, you know, they're not. They're not feeling their best the whole time, generally, but it's a matter of riding that wave of, you know, kind of lull of good feeling and getting through it. And yeah, like I say, it's cliche, but I think it's. It's a real thing and I had to live it out. So, yeah, I'm glad that I did, to be honest.

What an awesome answer. So I want to finish this podcast by talking about our home gravel race, the Dirty Warning, which is really exciting. We officially partnered with the Dirty Warning this year, so race had some. Has some momentum and getting a bit popularity around it. And Nick, you touched on the fact that the gravel scene isn't as big here, but we're really pumped about the popularity it's getting and how fun it is. So, yeah, I'll start with you, Nick. How was your experience, the Dirty Warning? And you actually ended up finishing 30 seconds behind Trekkie. So after all your conversations this year. Yeah, talk us through the race and your thoughts on it.

It was pretty funny heading into the race, actually, because it was pretty aggressive early on and Trekkie was making a few moves and I was. I was on his wheel the whole time because I knew he was the man to watch. So it was pretty funny developing this relationship throughout the podcast this year, not really knowing each other that well. And then, yeah, it all culminating in basically, currently Australia's biggest gravel race. Yeah, it was a super tough day. It was a headwind all day. I actually remember Trekkie turning around at one point being like, this is going to take like eight and a half hours because the headwind was so strong. And I think last year was like 7 hours 15 or something like that. So conditions were. Were really tough. And I'd actually taken a bit of inspiration out of Trekkie's year as such. I guess with gravel racing, I'd kind of usually been in that second group, but always felt like I was good enough to be in the first group. And on the kom, things split up a lot, and I think there might have been seven, eight of us. Trekkie was there and Marco, Brian, Brennan, Davids, and, you know, the real top gravel races here in Australia. And I made. Made the split and was in that group. So it was almost like my little mini moment of what Trekkie had this year, but that culmination of feeling like that you where you should be. So, yeah, it was a. It was a great race to me in terms of my confidence and, um, I'll definitely take that moving forward. Unfortunately, I lost contact on the descent. Um, was pretty sketchy, had been graded during the week, so it was super loose. Big rocks and couple of riders ahead of me just took a wrong line. The wrong line and subsequently meant a few behind us kind of got caught out. Um, that's the nature of gravel racing. So I kind of faced my own tough period thinking that I was in the front group, that was the race, and this could be something. And then all of a sudden you're out of that front group and you know that you've got five hours ahead of you, and that's probably the race done. But, yeah, we're through some, Some tough moments throughout that race, but then still salvaged a really good result with a top 10. And I'm a year older than Trekkie. Probably won't quit my job just yet, but it's a great, great confidence booster for me. Guess even with nationals coming up, you know that not going in, that I can win it by any means, but that I'm good enough to get around, which would be a great result in itself.

And Trekkie, your experience coming home from America and taking on gravel race in Oz, the biggest one, as Nick said.

Yeah.

How was, how did your day pan out?

I mean, it was a struggle to get down there, to be honest. I. By this point, I'm like, yeah, pretty. Pretty done with racing for that. I mean, you don't just get up and do the dirty warning. It's like you have to get up at super early and you have to prep all your stuff, which gets tiring whether, you know, by that point in the year and. But at the same token, you know, I. I wanted to kind. I just had the couple weeks off and. But I still wanted to. And I thought I would actually be better than I was on the day, to be honest. Like, my feeling was not good at all. Still had some, Some strength, obviously, but I think just my mindset was a bit. A bit beaten. And like I say, you don't just. You don't just pedal through the dirty warning and win it like you. Yeah, it's. It's a tough day out and guys like Marco and stuff didn't. Didn't make it any easier. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, like I say, I want I wanted to be there because it's a big race and, and it's the premier race. It's a, it's the journey from Geelong to Warrnambool. It's cool. It's good roads and, you know, I put my best foot forward that I, that I could. That I had on the day to kind of try and repeat last year. But yeah, I think I was just in a bit of a different, different mind space in terms of competing for the win. And yeah, my feeling wasn't. Wasn't as good on the day. And we actually got dropped on the. I guess you'd call it like the second kind of main climb with maybe 100, 100 ish ks to go. And from there it was just a bit of a death march to the finish. But it was kind of nice to just kind of. I mean, we rode pretty hard until the last little bit and. But then I think in the finished part, it's kind of like through the fields and stuff or the parks or whatever, and we were just like chatting, me and Ollie, about the day or whatever, and we didn't realize that these guys were like storming in behind us. We had not seen them for some time and then we crossed the line and they're literally on our, on our tail. But it was cool to teach. That's close racing. I mean, the. Yeah, obviously the, the winner was way out ahead. That was really impressive. Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just a cool race and it's the biggest race we have and, and I had to be there and give it my best crack. But yeah, it's challenging, that's for sure. I mean, that course in itself is, is right up there with as hard as it gets in terms of length and, and you know, the climbing and stuff. You know, you don't typically have that level of climbing. Even just after you do the main climb up into. Into forest, it just rolls on and on and on from there. Um, it's not a matter of getting to forest and downhill to Warrnamill at all. You know, as Nick will tell you, it's. It rolls on and that's a, That's a brutal course. It's. It's harder than. Yeah, a lot of the big races in the US for sure.

Yeah, I agree. I hadn't really done a big race like that probably since Unbound two years ago, and I, I had kind of forgotten the toll that it takes on you. Like, I was, I was absolutely smashed by the end of it. And for a good couple of days after. I'm glad I didn't eight of those races throughout the year and do the lifetime. It's. It's bloody tough. So kudos to anyone that that tackles it and just completed the day because it is right up there with one of the most brutal things I think you can do in Oz.

The fact that both of you said that and you know, Trekkie, you're saying coming back from what you did in America and saying how tough the corso just shows how tough a race it is. So we're going to wrap up there. It's been a monster episode. Trekkie, thank you so much for giving us your insights. The, the story you've had this year is really inspiring and the lessons you've shared is just awesome for any endurance athlete. And we can't wait to see how you go next year. Obviously a lot of learnings. We can't wait to see you give it another crack. Especially getting a preview this year into your season and watching it unfold and now getting a review. Yeah, we can't wait to see how you go next year. It's really exciting. So thanks, thanks for jumping on, mate.

Yeah, thanks. And you know, thanks to the Triavella team and yeah, I mean, bringing people onto my kind of, you know, your audience into mine. It has been nice and hopefully people can tackle their own endurance sport goals with some little tiny bit of extra inspiration.

That's awesome. I can't wait to see you both racing each other again at nationals in probably, I think it's five or six weeks time to the day almost. I think it's six weeks to the day. Can't wait to see you lining up together. So Nick, thanks for jumping on as well, mate. I appreciate you. And that's it for this episode. See you in the next one.