Gen Gregson's Insane Olympic Comeback Story

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Jen Gregson is a three times Olympian, seven times national champion, Australian record holder, and now is on her way to her fourth Olympics as a marathoner. A complete change in career. And that change in career came from a heartbreaking incident at the 2021 Tokyo Olympics, where in the final of the steeplechase on the very last hurdle jump where she was running in, hoping for a top eight finish, she jumped over the hurdle and popped her Achilles in what could could have been a season career, a career ending, her season ending, a career ending injury. And the story behind that actual incident goes even deeper. It turns out in Jen had been running in pain basically her entire, every single session and every single race for a few years now leading into that Olympics. And it's incredible what is going on behind the scenes at these Olympic Games that you don't realize because we sit at home and we watch on tv, we see the athletes run out and take the start line. We have no idea what's. What's going on in their head. We've got no idea what, what that day has been like for them that week or their entire preparation. And it turns out Jaden hadn't really run for almost 10 days leading to that final. She was so sore and injured that she, she barely, she basically couldn't train. And so she turned up to the heat, got herself through the heat with massive amounts of physio and cortisone injections and caffeine and adrenaline, as she puts it, managed to run the heat and she was running on one leg and make it to the final. And she, she hobbled to the final hoping for that she could get through and get. Get to a miracle. And she ran the race really well, only for her leg to give out on the last water jump. The crazy part about this is that the Achilles that had been giving her problems for years now and put her in so much pain wasn't actually the one that popped in the race. It was, it was actually the other leg. And this was shocking to her. And this is what was such a devastating blow, because that's where she felt like, far out. This is one Achilles that's almost been ruining my career the last few years that's so sore. And now this other one's popped. What the hell am I going to do. And as she got wheelchaired off the track, it was one of the most heartbreaking we saw from the Olympics, from one of Australia's greatest runners and personalities and leaders in the community. To see that those scenes is devastating. And she posted an Instagram photo shortly after that saying that she was completely broken. She's not okay now, but she, she will be. And she doesn't know what the future holds. But right now the focus was on two Achilles surgeries. And shortly after that, she reattached the first Achilles. And then later on she had her second Achilles surgery and started her comeback. And from there we saw the most miraculous journey where not only did she start coming back from two major Achilles surgeries, she also did it while pregnant. She had the second Achilles surgery when she was 22 weeks pregnant, had her first child and started running again and made her come back as a runner, debuting at the Gold Coast Marathon in a time of 2,28. From there, we are about to tell you and go through the story of how she has been able to essentially qualify for her fourth Olympics and make a complete comeback on this journey, all within the span of three years. It's really quite remarkable and we can't wait to dive into this. And if you followed athletics for a while, you know that her long spanning career, which started really kicked off at the 2012 London Olympic Games, she's had a lot of success as a runner. She's had a lot of highs and a lot of lows. And in this episode we get to interview her and we were so excited for this deep dive into those, those low moments, those periods that were really tough and how she got through them and then this whole comeback journey and how she managed to debut her marathon last year on the Gold coast in the middle of the year and then by the end of the year qualify for the Olympics. So, Dad, I hope I did that story justice because for me it's been so inspiring to watch and I really want the listener to understand how incredible this has been. And so they can go into this interview knowing that information and getting to hear the inside mind of Jen Gregson and what a pretty special athlete she is.

Yeah, and another example, and we love getting examples of athletes who have had adversity and you know, from 2012, she's had a lot of periods where she hasn't been able to train. And I'm talking chunks of months, you know, whether it's from injury, from Achilles, from broken ankle, from, from childbirth, there's been whole period in the Last since her, you know, three Olympic Games. That's, that's incredible in itself. You know, she's had, out of those 12 years, she's had big chunks of periods where she hasn't been able to train. She's been on the sidelines and doing some sort of rehab and her determination to never give up, that's one thing to change from being a 3,000 meter steeplechaser to now a marathon runner at world level. She's a PB of 223, is, you know, right up there as competitive as you can be. 3rd fastest ever by an Australian. And yet she's just come to this as a track runner and you know, through adversity. And we talk about, you know, finding a positive in a lot of the negative things that happen to us in our lives. This is a great example for everybody listening to this of how you can turn adversity into a triumph. And it's spine tingling to hear. And she's very matter of fact and she's, you know, she's a doer rather than a talker. And yeah, it's a great way that she explains her mindset. And I think that that is the lesson that we want our listeners to really hear. That no matter what happens to you, if you have a love and a passion for what you do, you will succeed. And it doesn't mean succeeding in winning and being on top of the podium. It means succeeding and enjoying what you're doing in your life and getting the best version performance that you can do for yourself. And they're the things that we aspire to in our coaching business is A, to have people be a better version of what they were before they joined us and B, to actually enjoy the process. Because if you do those two things, you will have success. And it's not being defined by your result. It's been defined by enjoying that whole journey. And there are going to be many highs and lows. And don't think that, you know, just because you're having an experience that's an injury at the moment that you're the only one that's experiencing this. There are lots of people going through it. And it's how you cope with that is the determination of how you are as a person. And I think this is a great example for, for everybody to hear two.

Things really stand out. It's the willingness just to take as many steps forward as possible. And no matter what roadblock is put in front, she just has the mindset, okay, what action step can I take from Here. And anytime she's not taking an action step towards improving and getting through any of those setbacks or injuries, she felt like that was dead time. That was just a really standout characteristic for me is that yeah, we can just, we can waste time kind of wallowing in self pity. And there is a time for that for sure. And when something happens, you do have to almost grieve that. But for her it's she as quick as possible just goes, okay, what are my next action steps? How can I move forward? And that, that is such a good attribute to have. But then also there's this, and you'll hear this in the interview, there's this. Not a new lease on running life because she's always loved running, but it's just a fresh way of, of thinking about running and thinking about her training and her career as a professional athlete. And she's no longer so tied up in needing to do more, more, more. But it's more that she is going. She respects her own energy, boundaries that she needs to have. She respects her own boundaries as a mother and the time that she wants to put to her child. And she isn't going to let herself overdo it for fear of not doing enough or foremost fear of not leaving every single stone unturned. And that doesn't mean she's any less professional. I think what we heard in this episode was her allowing herself a bit more freedom to say no when she's overtired or to not push her body when it doesn't need to be pushed has allowed her to actually have incredibly consistent training and some of the best results of her career in the last nine months. So really excited for you to hear this interview. Any last words before we get into it, dad?

No, I couldn't reiterate anymore what you just said. Not following the normal procedure of what every marathon runner does. And that can work for a lot of people. But she's identified that's maybe not the pathway she wants to take. And I admire that. And I think doing your own thing, it's specific to you and you know what works for you is going to be. And it shows through her results that she's actually getting the best out of herself doing it a different way. And I think that's also a message that we can all learn that don't just do what the normal people are doing. If that doesn't suit you, we hope.

You enjoyed it as much as we did. Here is the interview with Jen. Well, Jen, thank you very much for joining. Joining us on the podcast. We're pumped to have you here.

No, thank you so much guys. I'm excited to tell a bit of my story and hear some good questions on your end.

So the first question we love to ask an athlete is what session did you do or are you doing today?

I just had a 90 minute run. You caught me on a really boring day. Ryan and I also live in a terrible place for running, so we run from the door just to be time efficient. But I have no sexy loop. It is 90 minutes on pavement with no scenic route whatsoever. So yeah, I, I covered about 20 and a half K. And yeah, that was, that's a very normal Wednesday morning for me.

90 minutes, about 20 something K. What sort of pace was it and heart rate?

I don't know heart rate, but if I just go off the top of my head, I usually try do my easy runs like that in like the high 140s and the pace is probably low 4 20s, so maybe averaging around like 4 23. 4 24.

Where, where are you, Jen? For those listeners who don't know where you, where you're training at the moment.

I'm based in Brisbane. Now, just when we started a family, we want to be close to my family. So we are in Morningside, Brisbane. And yeah, like I said, it's, it's not fantastic for running.

So you've had an exceptional career so far and it just keeps going. You just keep extending it and you're on track to make sure you hopefully compete at your fourth Olympic Games and in Tokyo. It looks like your career could be totally taken away from you and we'll touch on that soon. But the standout theme for anyone that ever listens to you is that your love of running is what keeps you going. So can you explain why running means so much to you?

Yeah, I guess I think I'm just very intrinsically motivated when it comes to sport in general. But running in particular is something that I find kind of most of my peace of mind in. If you took running away from me, I really do feel like a shell of a person. It sounds cliche, but running is something that I love to start my day with and always have. Even when I was pregnant and that was exciting. I still miss moving my body and being really active. And running is something that I've done from day one. Like, I don't remember life before I could run because I started so young and I think it just became part of, you know, who I am and what I do. And so obviously along with that came the elite side and the competitiveness in me. But I also do just love the social side and the side that gets you out the door and makes you feel better about yourself. So it, it does make it a lot easier to stay motivated when times are tough because the alternative is just not run. And for me that isn't an option. So when I have had big setbacks, especially like my one in Tokyo, I wasn't ready to give up completely. So the only other option was to really start focusing on how I was going to get back and what that was going to entail to climb my way back to elite running.

You know, stranger to setback, Tokyo was a major one, but you've been had some major injuries all the way back from what, fracturing your ankle in, in 2012 or 2013. Ish. And it almost is like every few years kind of some sort of major injury. So every athlete goes through this and dad and I were talking off air about no matter what level you're at as age groupers, an injury is just as devastating because you just, you do love the sport and you don't want to have to stop. What kind of advice do you give to people because you've had to go through it so many times and when you have to repeat that process and take time off, what has really helped you get through that repeatedly?

I think the best way to look at it for people that do reach out for advice and ask how do I wrap my head around big setbacks in a long time away is I just break it down simply and try to look at it as temporary because that's all it is. You know, when you do a major injury, I think people focus on the trauma of it and that it's, you know, unfortunate and you can't do what you love and, you know, you don't know how long you're going to be out for. But once you've grieved the injury or whatever happened, I think it's easy to move forward if you can see the goal in front of you of how you're going to get over it and how temporary it really is in the scheme of things. And for me, yeah, so when people reach out to me about how I face injuries, especially, especially when they're kind of. For a while there, there was probably two or three years where I was kind of getting injured. Every time I got going again, I really just try focus on the task at hand and making a plan of how to move forward. I think a lot of people get lost with injury because they look ahead and just see a long time away from what they love to do. And even though that may be the reality, the thing that helps me is breaking it down and seeing how temporary it really is in the scheme of things, of what you're trying to do. And once you have a plan and work out what you need to do to get better, I mean, time flies, a few months might go by and the next thing you know you're building back to what you love doing and you're running again. So it's more about, I think, making plans and setting short term goals and small wins along the way. And I think that has allowed me to have a really long career because when something huge happens, rather than getting derailed and upset and depressed about it, I grieve it initially. And then, and then I work out a way of how I'm going to move forward, how I'm going to get better and maybe even think of some ways that I can be better from this injury and how I'm going to become a better athlete out of it.

One of the things I really admire is, you know, going all the way back to 2012 when you actually broke your ankle. And if you had have been able to think forward that in 2024, right at this particular time you would be contemplating going to your fourth Olympic Games when you broke your ankle. They're perspective things, aren't they? That you have this shocking experience and you think, oh, far out. How am I going to come back from this? And yet project that forward, you know, 12 years and look at the career you've had post that first injury. And that must be satisfying for you to know how well you've overcome a lot of things. That was, that was the first major injury. I'm sure you had injuries before that, but. And you've had many after that with your Achilles. So yeah, take us through how that, that process actually worked for you.

Yeah, I mean, when you put it like that, I'm obviously very proud of myself for just sticking at it. And yeah, if you had told me back in 2012 at my first Olympics that I was actually going to be heading to my fourth in 2024, I definitely wouldn't have believed you. And I wouldn't have believed you when you told me it was in the marathon either. But I think also the moral of the story, even for myself looking back at my journey, is persistence. And it's something that I've always preached even back in the was actually 2013. So my first Olympics was 2012. And then I became a professional athlete and at my first diamond league, yeah, completely sheared my ankle on the water barrier in 2013 and it was my first major injury. I look back then and I was really just a young girl that had no idea how to rehab or deal with setback. But I obviously got through it. I had a lot of great advice, an awesome support team around me. But I also know that the athlete I am today in the journey that I've taken to be here wouldn't have happened if I didn't have so many setbacks. Like, I know it created a better character of myself or a better version of myself. I think it's allowed me to be a better mother, a better partner. Just, you know, knowing that I've had to have a tough run to get to this point. I think when people have an easier path, they seem to give up easily when it does get hard. But I haven't really ever had it easy. So, you know, when things get in the way, I'm kind of like, yeah, okay, you know, we've been here before, we know what to do. You know, let's just do what we've always done and persist. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's been a really cool.

And just to clarify, you obviously run the Olympic qualifier easily influencia. And yeah, we'll touch on that. But is that guaranteed your spot? Did you, do you get automatic selection? Because I know a few girls have run it and you're obviously the fastest. Are you 100% going or is that still slightly up a question?

I mean, I can't say that I'm 100% going because the team won't be selected till the first week of May. But there are no other races I'm running. And I think we only have two more girls actually attempting to achieve the time. And I sit in the second fastest spot with, yeah, having a great performance in Valencia, which was heavily weighted because it was a, you know, a head to head matchup. So I'm confident that I'll be selected. But of course I'm, I'm not going to sit here and say I'm in the Olympic team. I'm just, you know, trying to plan my prep and focus on the race in Paris for when or if I get selected. And yeah, it's the next biggest thing.

On my schedule just on that point. I always find it hard. Most of the time. Every athlete that has got a goal and a strategy and a plan towards an event, the Olympic year is one of the most Strangest years, because not every athlete knows that they're actually going to the event until some time. That's not enough time to prepare. So you have to actually prepare as if you're going to, even though you might not be going. Explain the feelings around that for the Olympic years.

Yeah, it, it is tough. I would say. This is definitely. I'm kind of happy with the position I'm in. I mean, I would obviously love to be selected already, but for the marathon, it's even more so magnified due to the fact that it's different to track races. Like, for a track track races, you can stay prepared. You know, your season is long. You can race every weekend. You kind of can stay sharp for a long time. But with a marathon, you got to start like a proper specific preparation, a minimum of 10 to 12 weeks out. So even though that will be more closer to June, it's still really hard to prepare. And then even if you don't have a time, say I was in a position where I wanted to have another go. I've got a plan to run another whole marathon, you know, before Paris even is close. Because you also want to be recovered. So it's a really difficult situation to be in as a very long distance runner. But my also my previous experiences has been tough because I've been racing to the death when it comes to getting times and dates. And, you know, the story of 2012 was I actually missed the date and qualified two days late in 2016. I. No, I had the qualifying time and then got top two at nationals. So that was nice. That was an auto selection early in the year. But yeah, it's one of those things where even though you're focusing on that whole Olympic year, you're pushing yourself and trying to get the most out of yourself right up and until a few weeks out from the Olympics, let alone that big day itself.

So right now that would mean that you are essentially preparing as if you're going. And yeah, you're in a good position, as you just mentioned before. And yeah, definitely different to, yeah, potentially some track history where you are sometimes racing to the death. You can't really change anything. Now if for some reason someone else was selected but you. Yeah, you're pretty much. We could say that you're going. So how does that change your mindset right now? What are you doing for the next block of training and then when does that real Olympic race ready block start? Early June.

Yeah. So I have tried to make sure that I didn't just completely rest on my Race in Valencia and, and sit back. I've actually really thrown myself back into the track, which has been difficult. I just feel like I really warm to the roads and the longer distance and the lack of intensity over the, the longer distances. However, my coach just said, you know, while a lot of other girls were trying to make the team and try go run other races to qualify for the marathon, you know, I've been focusing on the 5k on the track just as like a backup plan if. If the worst case happened and three girls came out and ran faster and pushed me out. So it's been fun and challenging at the same time. You know, I've been back in spikes, doing fast stuff, trying to run really quick four hundreds, which is a little foreign. But it's been really fun to, to go back to my old love of the sport, which is track. And I'll actually do nationals next weekend. So not this weekend coming the, the one after. I'm going to do the 5k nationals. But I do believe I can be confident now in the fact that I'll be going back to marathon prep probably after nationals. I've got a few half marathons lined up and I'm really excited to go back to that long stuff and, and really start testing my body to, to push the kilometers per week and, and get a little more work in.

So one of your fears coming back from both Achilles surgeries was that, and you've been well documented saying that a lot of people told you that the marathon would suit you and you couldn't believe them until you actually did it. But one of your fears was that, you know, what if you came back a totally different athlete? What if your biomechanics wasn't the same? What if your physiology and your gait wasn't the same? How has that process been? Especially hearing that you're turning back to track and speed sessions. Is it still affecting you? Do you feel like you're back to normal or stronger than before?

Yeah, I think, yeah, it was really scary knowing whether I'd get my gait back and everything felt normal. But the weird thing is I almost feel like injuries in your feet or injuries in my feet over the years have made me more and more into a distance runner. Like I shuffle now. I feel like I was a little more powerful when I was younger. When I hadn't and injured on the track, I had kind of more strength per stride. Whereas now I'm very economical. I stay close to the ground. I kind of almost shuffle. I don't really leave the floor. So I would say it's made me much stronger going through all these injuries on the road, But I do feel I'm not the same athlete on the track. I don't feel as powerful and as strong. And due to all the injuries due to being in my feet in the past, they feel just. They're a bit weak for spikes, is the best way to describe it. I mean, I've ruptured my medial plantar on my right foot. I've ruptured my Achilles in my right foot. I've broken twice my metatarsal in my left foot. I've had two Achilles surgeries. Like, they're just not the same feet that I had when I was young. And when I put spikes on, I do feel I lack that confidence and power. So I enjoy being it on the track mentally. But when you put me on the road, I feel strong and powerful and economical and fast.

I just wonder, going into the Olympic year and getting back onto the track and doing some speed work, are you, in the back of your mind, worried that there is a potential if I'm starting to do too much speed work, that I could potentially get another injury from it? Or are you. Are you feeling like you're strong enough for the track work? What's your thought process around the preparation running that you're choosing to do right now?

Yeah, that's a really good question, because I have lived the second half of my career in fear a lot. Just the trying to get that consistency in over everything. And I think for that reason, I always have shied on the more conservative side of the. Of training and mileage. And even. Even right up until Valencia, like, I would be running the least kilometers than any other marathon runner. I think that exists. And it's. And it's coming from a place of fear. It's coming from, you know, I don't want to overdo it. I would rather do a little less, but have more to give and be healthy than overdo it and break before I get there. And my husband is always in my ear saying, like, you can be better. You can do more. Like, you've got so much talent to. To use up. You just need to train a little harder. But I kind of worry that, yeah, there is a fine line, but in saying that I don't feel the track stuff kind of jeopardizes that. I've really enjoyed the shorter, faster stuff. I feel my body in general is the strongest it's ever been. Just, you know, ligaments, tendons, muscles, bones. I think the only Thing now that scares me for injury is just trying to meet the expectation of how much marathon runners should run and accidentally overdoing it. So that's kind of, you know, the one last stone unturned is how much do I do leading up to Paris, you know, how hard do I push it, how far do I run a week?

Do you have any answers at the moment of what you, what you're thinking?

I do, I think, I think I've got to really realize that this is the strongest I've felt. Like no part of me heads out the door for an afternoon run and, and feel stiff and sore. Whereas when I was 28, trying to double, you know, around Rio, I was sore, my Achilles hurt, you know, waking up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, I could barely walk to the toilet. Like there are indicators that show I am a healthier version of myself and I think need to have confidence in that. And that's kind of what I'll do for this next prep. I think I will add in some doubles and just see how my body handles it and go from there. I know I have room to move. It's just how much room can I move?

That's a great answer and definitely we love the individualizing and the expectation of marathon runners is to do more and lots of volume. And that's what, what all the good coaching information out there is saying, you know, if you want to be successful at marathon, you have to do long kilometers and that's okay for the general population, but everybody's different. And you're a classic example of not doing that and being actually more successful. How much do you attribute to the cross training that you do that's helped you get that endurance that you require at the back end of a marathon when you're negative splitting in some of the, you know, the two events you've done, you've, you've just really ran great execution races, which shows that you don't need to do that big volume. You've got it from somewhere else. Tell us about your cross training experiences.

Yeah, see, I have always prided myself on being mentally very strong. And that means I can cross train for hours on end and take the pressure off my body from running. But in saying that, and that's something I've done my whole career. I mean, there's been world champs I've rocked up to and I've done 40k a week running, but I've cross trained for 12 to 14 hours a week in the pool or on the bike. But since becoming a mother, I realized I don't have the energy to cross train like I used to. And that's been the biggest change. But a pleasant surprise that the time I used to put into cross training is I thought that would come in handy as a marathon runner because I can do it. And I always knew that the extra K's could come from the elliptical or the bike or pool running. But I actually haven't done any cross training over these last two years. So the running that I've done for these marathons, I've made really quality. I'm not a believer in the fluff running where people kind of just want to add their Ks up at the end of the week so they'll force themselves out the door and shuffle really slow even though their bodies, you know, rejecting it. I kind of cut all that type of stuff out and just do the main big sessions, make them really good big long runs and. Yeah. And have my afternoons off if I need it.

I want to explore this kind of mindset shift from you in more detail because I asked one of your ex teammates for any information he could provide about for this interview in preparation for this interview. And he just said, to be honest, she is the ultimate professional athlete. And that's just, that's just the defining characteristic of her as an athlete. Which. One, that must be very nice to hear from a peer. But two, when you think about that with your own training, basically his description was you would leave no stone unturned. That's been very obvious your whole career. That you would do absolutely everything and maybe sometimes too much to get the results you want. Whereas since this whole last journey into marathon running and this process so far seems like you've really allowed yourself to not have to do that. And that's what this whole conversation is about with being okay with running less kilometers. But how have you mentally made that switch where you actually say it's okay and it doesn't feel like you're doing a disservice to yourself or you're cheating yourself by comparing yourself to the other girls and how much K's they're doing? How have you actually made that okay in your head mentally?

Yeah. That's very lovely to hear. And I know who you're talking about, so I'll have to thank him. Yeah, yeah. I think this is what's crazy is I was through most of my career. Yes. Very professional. As I got older and more injuries and made more teams, I realized that there was more I could do better. They were, you Know, I could sleep more, I could eat better, I could do more gym, I could rehab, you know, more hours. And I did get to a place with running where, yeah, I would, you could call me the ultimate professional because I was always looking at what could make me better and how I could not make similar mistakes back to back. And, and yeah, it came from frustration of being injured all the time as well. So I was always just looking for answers to be better and researching a lot. And my husband and I would talk it inside out to, to work out ways that we could be more professional. But then in the same breath, when I became a mother and my desire for running is still just as strong. You know, I still have big goals, bigger than even the last few years. I also took a different look at everything and it was like, it's okay if you can't get to the gym twice a week. It's okay if you can't double run every afternoon. You know, if you don't feel good on, on a session day, that's okay. Just get it done. Like, stop comparing your times and, and wanting to be perfect. And I became a totally different athlete after Tokyo for many reasons, but I think a big one was because I became a mum and, and the energy that I used to put into bettering myself had to go elsewhere. And I think it just, it benefited me. It was too. Yeah, it helped me in the end because I think I've always been so hard on myself and I've always wanted to work so hard and if something happened, I would put it down to something I did wrong. Whereas now I've kind of taken that, that pressure off. I have a different perspective and I'm easier to myself. And people are always like, oh, how do you just all of a sudden start telling yourself to go easier? And it's, it's not that I'm telling myself to go either. I go off, feel I'm exhausted most of the time. And that means if I'm tired and I can't run really hard for 90 minutes, I'll run a little easier. Or I have a gym session scheduled and it's like I can't see how I'm going to do it, so I won't do it. And it's just about having a different perspective and knowing that that's not going to necessarily make me a worse athlete. I'm listening to my body and putting energy in when I feel good and trying to preserve it when I feel bad. And I think it's allowed me to just become such A great marathon runner because that's essentially what the event is. It's knowing your body. It's knowing when to push and when to hold back. And I feel like I found my craft now because it's suited to everything I am and what I've learned to this point in my career.

Great answer. And I wanted to ask you this question, and Jordan and I were pretty, pretty keen to get this question across to you as well. From your first ever marathon at the Gold coast, where you. Your debut was a 228. Is that right? And then. And then you went on to Valencia, which is renowned for being a really good course to run fast on. You ended up with a 223. Around those numbers. That's a massive improvement. What are the things that you think you did really well? Is it a lot of the stuff you've already told us about being kinder to your body and training when you feel like you're ready to train rather than when you should be training? Are they the things you've done, or is there some other change that you've done? I mean, that is a long way apart. 228 to 223. They're outstanding times, both of them.

Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. It's. It is a strange one, because, firstly, I wasn't heading out there for a 2:23, which is the crazy reality of it all. I thought on a good day, I could run to 25, 30. And, yeah, I definitely surpassed all expectation in that race. But after heading into Gold coast, that was scary, I would say, you know, I maybe even let limits sneak in and an expectation and doubt kind of get in the way of that race. The race went perfectly. Like, I felt awesome. It was set up so well. It was a beautiful day. It's a good course. So that race, really, I couldn't have asked for a better result at that time. And I was also still kind of coming along. Like, I was, only I wasn't that far removed from giving birth and breastfeeding and all that. And I just think I went into that marathon as prepared as I could be at that point of where I was with training. But there was so much more to gain. Like, I hadn't even reached the fitness that I was before Tokyo. I knew I was on my way, and I knew I could, but, you know, I was racing girls that domestic season and getting absolutely beaten up. You know, I would have been lucky to come 10th in most of my races. I hadn't won a race in years at that point. But I just knew that I could do a pretty decent marathon. And my goal was sub 2:30. So I kind of set that goal knowing that it wasn't too ambitious, and it was just, you know, as low as I could get. Under 230 was a bonus. But after that, after that race where I ran to 28:30, I just knew there was so much movement for me possible if I could keep on this trajectory. And that came with doing more marathon sessions, getting better at fueling more confidence. I got my road PBS down in the 10k, my half marathon came down, and I started winning races again. So for an athlete, when you've been down and out and your journey back is bumpy in the sense that you got to go to these races and get beaten by everyone over and over again, and you do, you start thinking, oh, is it? Am I going to get back? Like, there's people beating me that have never beaten me before. And I had to go through that to get that kind of fire in my belly and know that I want to be back on top. And so it wasn't until after Gold coast where I found this. This. This fitness and this confidence and the ability to win races again. And I took all that into my prep for Valencia, which, you know, is priceless, really, because I'm entering a prep at the. The peak of my power. And then again, the. The preparation for Valencia, it was about eight to nine weeks.

It.

It just was amazing. It was. Every session I hit, I absolutely killed it every session. And that's not to say I didn't skip gym sessions, and I took some doubles out. I rested if I needed it. So when I turned up to Valencia, I think what made that huge leap was the fact that it was labeled an Australian trial. Just indirectly. It wasn't officially, but there were four Aussies, meant to be five Aussies, all lining up against each other on the line. And we were literally told, whoever crosses the line first goes to Paris. And that brings another thing out of you. And I'm sure we all felt it, and we all knew it, and it was hard because we were all such good friends. But that's kind of was the reason that I ran so well, because I had to just commit to whatever the fastest girl wanted to do. And at the time, that was easy. Izzy Bat Doyle had announced to all of us that she was aiming for 2:24, and that's the pace group she was going out with. And I just thought, wow, that's whack. But, like, I can't just let her have that spot and sit back trying to run 225. So, yeah, I just. I went out in that. That pace group and just split after split. Was kind of scared at what I was seeing, but also excited because I felt so good. And when it came to that about 35k mark, I actually felt like I'd probably dropped a few people. And from that moment on, I just started running as hard as I could from 35k to pretty much to 40, 41k, where I saw Ryan and he actually told me to slow down. He's like, you need to just chill out. You need to just get home now. Job's done. And that was just really exciting because I don't know how many people that are listening have run a marathon, but from what I've heard, it's rare to feel like you have all the energy to burn at the end of the race. And that's how I felt. I felt like I was putting on my jetpack. And I think that's where that time kind of came. At the last spurt of energy, I really brought it down and nearly broke 2, 23. And that's exciting. It's exciting because I don't think I ran it the way a normal marathon would run it. But at the same time, I've explained to you it was a dream run up. You know, I don't have anything to complain about. I feel like I did everything right. And to top it all off, I had the confidence behind me to know it was possible. And yeah, it was.

To be honest, when I saw the results, my mouth literally was open and I was going, whoa. And not just you, all the girls, but especially your time. And for you with the crew you've had, I mean, it's. Try not to be cliche about it, but far out, that just meant it must have been the most incredible feeling for an athlete from. From where you sat in Tokyo, you know, being wheelchaired off to everything that culminated to that point in Valencia. Far out. That must have been overwhelming.

Yeah, well, the crazy thing is I thought I felt all those emotions on the Gold coast like that. To me, if anyone was there and anyone that was close to me, there was like a pour out of emotion because of the journey to that point, because I thought that was kind of as good as it gets feeling wise, you know, these last two years have been brutal. There's been so much doubt. I've had a child, which has also been a new kind of journey in itself. And to cross that line and be like, wow, I Can run marathons. I can do this. I can make Paris. That, to me, was. Was a wow moment where you're just really grateful for believing in yourself the way I did. And even when on paper it looked impossible. But you're right. When I crossed the line at Valencia, I'm like, no, this is the best. Like, this is the feeling that was pretty special because that felt like the ticket to Paris. That felt like I'd punched it. And all of that talk for the last two to three years on interviews and to my family and to my husband and to myself, that was where I feel like I nailed it.

What a great story. And my big question is, why did it take you so long to change from track to marathon running?

I pinch myself. I'm like, why? It's so annoying. Why did you. You could have had such a great career on the roads, but there's a.

Positive out of it. I think that all of that competition and experience of highs and lows as a runner, as a runner who is starting to not be as competitive, and you're still challenging yourself to line up and put a number on week in, week out. I think that's a great story of how much you actually love running. And it didn't matter that you weren't coming first, second, or third. You were now coming ninth, tenth, fifteenth, whatever it was, but you still turned up and you had that passion, and it was only a matter of time before you found your niche event. And, boy, have you found your niche event. It's. It's absolutely brilliant.

And, yeah, I. I really. I knew I would be a good marathoner in the back of my head. But it's really hard as a track athlete to. You know, you start in little A's.

You.

You do track and field all through school, through high school. I got a college scholarship for track to go to America. Like, it was the reason I was in the sport. And it's really hard, I think, for a lot of athletes that know they'll be a good marathoner to take that step away and leave it behind you. And that. That's what's crazy also. And I. I know on a million interviews, I. I talk about it, but it's. The sliding doors in my career just are ridiculously perfectly timed. Like, I just. The Tokyo incident allowed me to be like, well, it's Rhodes now. You know, no other options. And it also allowed me to decide to start a family. And it just, it. It made this path I was following completely change direction on a whole new trajectory. But in a way that has bettered my life in every facet. Just. I'm back home near my family, I have a child, my husband and I. You run a business from home online. And I just feel like our life has, you know, really found a nice place after such a horrible incident at the time. And, yeah, it just allowed me to find my love for marathons, and hopefully I'm not too late. I do actually plan on going to 2032 in Brisbane, believe it or not.

Yes. Yeah. That's awesome.

Yeah, I feel like I got a lot of marathons, like, up my sleeve, and, you know, that's going to be. My goal is six Olympics. I think.

We were just off air looking at who had competed in the most Olympics as an. As a runner. And there's plenty of other sports where I think one of the horse jumping guys had done six Olympics, I think. Yeah. So Moneghetti been to four? Yes. Well, Moniza's done four, so that's a challenge for you.

Yeah. Well, Lisa Waitman, who might be selected, is potentially about to run her fifth, and she's done marathon at every one, so that's pretty crazy.

Yeah, it's a great. It's a great story. And one of the. One of the things that we really love to hear is that, you know, your passion is still coming through and you love what you're doing, and it's no coincidence that you asked your, you know, people who love what they're doing will eventually find some. Some success. And. And that's not why we do it. We don't do it to. To be successful. We do it because we love the experience. And that's the message we love getting across to our podcast listeners is that, you know, you have setbacks and. And they can be massive. They. You, as Jordan said, you can be wheelchaired off the track and. And life seems like it's just, you know, crashing down on you. Yet for every negative experience, as long as you can find a positive, and sometimes they're very difficult to find, but you have actually completely found your niche market area because of the negative experience you had. And not only that, you've had time away from running to have a baby. And we'd love to hear how that whole pregnancy and running experience was for you. How long were you able to keep running for? Until you had to stop. And then how long did it take you to resume running? Just slowly, obviously, and then before you got back to intensity. Take us through that. That whole experience, if you could. I'm sure there's thousands of female runners out there who just want to hear how you, how you've done this.

Yeah, well, I actually didn't have the stereotypical runners pregnancy. I mean I don't even know what that is. But I had a lot of athlete friends from Tokyo that fell pregnant at a similar time and, and you know, would post videos and photos of them looking very heavily pregnant, jogging along slowly and it, you know, looked very glamorous. But for me, I was actually undergoing my second surgery while I was pregnant. So I obviously had the first surgery straight after Tokyo and that was the major one that was, you know, reattaching my Achilles tendon. And that comeback is really slow because it's, you know, no weight bearing. You're essentially bedridden for a few weeks until you can put your foot in a shoe again and so on. But I was pregnant during all of that because I got pregnant pretty quickly after Tokyo. And then at 15 weeks post surgery I was able to start really softly walks, jogging, kind of like little strides, very slowly. And I do remember I was about 12 to 14 weeks pregnant around that time phase. So not showing a whole lot. But you feel humongous, which is hilarious because you don't look humongous but you feel like there is a watermelon in your belly. And so I tried to just, I was rehabbing the whole time. I definitely was in the gym daily doing foot intrinsic exercises, pool running, swimming, soft biking if my foot allowed it. So I was very active. But for a runner I, I believed I wasn't doing very much vigorous exercise and I couldn't really jog for over, you know, 10 minutes until I was closer to 20 weeks pregnant. And that's when you start getting big. So pretty much when I got back on my feet to a 20, 25 minute run, I went back in for another surgery at 22 weeks pregnant. So that's when I got kind of the haglins shaved and everything and that, you know, you're off again for eight to 10 weeks. So I went back to swimming and cycling and so I actually didn't run much during pregnancy, but I was always active. I was doing whatever cross training I was allowed to with where my surgery sat. And I think I got to like 35 weeks pregnant and attempted a jog for 15 minutes. And it was point like I kind of laughed at myself and said this is absolutely not beneficial because I'm barely moving and my stomach feels like it's about to fall out. So yeah, I pretty much slowed down a lot. I didn't give birth till 41 weeks. He was huge, like the biggest baby ever, I swear. But the most amazing thing for me is I was lucky enough to give birth exactly how I would like to. I know that you. It's very hard for women to follow a plan in that sort of situation, but I was very fortunate in my situation. And I actually was jogging by three and a half weeks postpartum. And I only did that I was seeing a pelvic specialist, you know, like a women's health physio. Because I just kept saying to them all, I think I told everyone in the birth room also. I was like, I'm an, I'm a runner. I'm an elite athlete. Like, I can't damage anything. Think, like, I need to be able to run again after this. But I had really good help coming out of it. I did a lot of Pilates, a lot of things that just strengthen, strengthen your pelvis area because it's obviously very traumatic what you go through. And I just remember it three weeks. I think I was watching like Commonwealth Games or World Champs or something. It was 2022, like July, so maybe it was World Champs and Common Games was after. And I just remember thinking, I feel fine. I feel great. I don't feel any strangeness, I don't feel any weakness. I feel like I could definitely run. And I just, I did. I started every. I made up my own program, which I don't advise. And every second day I would just go out for a little jog. Like I'm talking two minutes. I'd go out for a two minute jog, come home and be like, that felt great. And then have a day off and do it again. And I just did that up until I got to a point where I felt like I was coachable again and I wasn't in that danger zone. And then I reached out to my coach and I said, okay, I'm ready, let's go. And it didn't come to me as easy as I thought. I felt awful. Just unfit and heavy and just not strong. But like I said, I just kept, kept chipping away, turning up to races, running really slow, questioning why I did that. And then I think I did a, a 10k bridge to Brisbane 10 weeks postpartum and ran 37 minutes. And that to me was a huge step forward. I felt like, okay, I think my, my Achilles is actually gonna be okay. Like, it felt normal. I, I felt kind of fast and yeah, just step by step, I climbed my way back and then just threw myself into the domestic season, six months later on the track and yeah, got beat up on a few times, but kept improving slowly. Just, you know, a few seconds of time. And then just one day it clicked. It really, it just clicked. One day I woke up and I felt like me again. And it's a lot to do with hormones when you're breastfeeding and stuff, but I just realized that from that moment on I was going to be okay. And I'd kind of got through the hardest part. So it's hard when people ask for advice with all of that because every journey is so different and every woman listening or every mother listening needs to understand that there are so many variables. And I did. I won't say I got lucky in every way. I did a lot of prepping leading into birth and out of birth with Pilates and making sure that, that I was in a good state for both ends. But again, there is just so much that can happen during childbirth and for an athlete especially. And I really felt like I handled it well, had some good things fall my way and yeah, came out really strong from it.

And so what was the time frame between. So your first job was three weeks and then started coaching again how many months after?

I probably started doing sessions maybe like six weeks later. I just jogged for a while. Yeah, I probably just jogged around. You know, when I said I did that, that race 10 weeks postpartum, that was purely just me being like, I'm gonna do a race that was not advised by a coach. So I probably started seeing, getting coached, you know, around the 12, 12 to 15 weeks postpartum.

Yeah. And then that, that time it clicked when about that time frame wise, that.

Honestly didn't feel like, I don't feel like things clicked until I started my Gold coast marathon prep. So I ran a half marathon. I'm doing it again this year around end of April in Gifu, Japan. And I broke 72 minutes. It was my debut half marathon. However, it felt awful. Like I just remember being like, there's no way I can run a marathon. That was awful. But then, you know, I got home, I started a marathon prep and I just loved it. I loved the sessions, I loved the longer running and that somewhere in those, that those early weeks of, of my marathon prep, I realized I was gonna, yeah, I was gonna get fit again and strong again because I just started feeling my, myself.

Incredible, incredible timeline. Incredible journey. You go, Dad.

I was just gonna say for those listening to run a 1:11 half marathon is, you know, there's not a lot of people who can do that. And then, and for you to do that. Was that your first half marathon that you properly trained for? Yeah, yeah, that's. And then your mindset and you had a very average race. You struggled, you ran too hard, too early and, and executed not the way you want to. And so your confidence would have been not going very well after that experience. And you're trying to prepare for a marathon. So that would have put some doubt into your mind as to whether a you can actually do the marathon after the really bad experience you had to endure yourself. Take us through that mindset and going from that point and don't forget, 71 is still a great time, you know, and, and then to come out and run, you know, sub 2:30 post that race and, and you know, we tell a lot of our athletes that, you know, double that time and add something between 5 and 10 minutes for your marathon and that sits you right smack back in one, you know, 229, 230, 231 range. So tell us about how your confidence, your state of mind was about after that experience.

Yeah, so I think that was, it was a good and bad thing that half marathon. So firstly I actually asked. I heard one of the girls that was meant to be going in my group pulled out and so I said to my coach, can I do that half marathon? And that's what I'm always like with him, you know, that doesn't surprise him. And he's like, look, you can do it if you want, but you know, it's a long way to travel. And I had to organize like I was still breastfeeding. So I had to organize my mum and Archer to come with me, which was a mission in itself because the races, the road races in Japan are not in Tokyo or in like the center of the city they're out in. So travel days take two days minimum to get there when you're talking trains and planes. So I kind of made it a mission to go and really wanted to prove myself there. And I didn't set a time. I wasn't like, I have to run sub 72 to believe in myself. But when I crossed the line and saw sub 72, I think it was 7156. I was honestly shocked because I thought I was running like 5 minute K's. It was so awful. I just. Yeah, it was. I was under prepared. I hadn't learned how to fuel yet. I hadn't really done any long sessions. I just thought half marathon. I'm sure it's not that much harder than a 10k. I'll just do it. And I went out with the girls who I would normally run with and ended up just blowing up and running the last 12k completely solo. And 12k is a long way to blow up for, but I was honestly blowing up every step. I think I was. I hit a barricade in the last K. Like, I'd started going wonky. And so when I crossed the line and saw the time, I was probably cheering because I was like, whoa. I thought it was going to say, like, 85 minutes. And so that was a strange feeling because I remember talking to my husband and my coach and being like, they were both like, wow, you did it like you can do it. You've proven yourself that you're a road runner and will look forward to what you can do next. But in my head, you know, I was thinking that was the worst feeling I ever, ever experienced, and I never want to do it again. And I definitely don't want to double that distance. And so, yeah, it wasn't a great confidence booster for me. But then again, I explained to you guys, I got home, I started the proper training for a distance race. I started learning about fueling. I was seeing a dietitian, you know, finding out the importance of making sure you've fueled before and after. And all of that just helped. So much so that by the time Gold coast came around and I'm running and I'm waiting for that moment where I blow up and feel like I did in Japan, it just never came. And I remember coming up on the side of Scotty Westcott, who was my pacer, and I just said, scotty, I feel good. Let's go. Let's go a little bit faster. And that was at 32K. And so I think that half marathon actually prepared me for the worst, but in a good way, because nothing has ever hurt like that race ever again. So, yeah, it was just about being more respecting the event. I think that's what that race taught me to do. It taught me to respect all aspects of it. The fueling, the. The pacing yourself, the just how important discipline is on these longer races. And I definitely never forgot it ever after that.

Can you give us a example? And the listener would just love to hear what a general training week looked like, you know, specifically with the sessions. What are the main kind of sessions? What were you aiming for in that Gold coast build up? And then how did that compare to maybe a typical week in that final lead up to Valencia? Were there Many changes.

We actually pretty much I mirrored the training from Gold coast to Valencia, but there were a few variables that came into it that just made Valencia prep more challenging and brought me on better. So leading into Gold Coast, a very renowned block that I'm sure everyone's heard about because we all repeat it, everyone in Nick Bow stable, and it's, you know, 20 by 1k followed by the next week is 7 by 2k, then it. It's 3, 6 by 3k, 5 by 4k and 4 by 5k. And then the final session you do that's, you know, probably the thing that it most mimics your marathon race is a 37K fartlek, where it's just 37K filled with sessions. It's like four different sessions piled into one, and it's all continuous. And it's the closest thing you will feel to running a marathon because the last part of that 37k is a 5k, as hard as you can go all continuous. And I just remember when I was asking advice from fellow teammates that had done it, I just said, so how hard do you run this last 5k in this session? And they said, as hard as your legs will allow you? And I was like, yeah, but that's a bit silly. We're not going to be running that fast. But when you get to that point of the session, it's, yeah, it's what your body will allow. And it's almost. It's a bit faster than what you would do at the end of a marathon. And I just loved it. I. It was brutal, but I loved it. And I remember completing that 37k session before gold coast. And I was like, I'm gonna kill this. Like, I know it that, like, I'm made for this event. And so I did the same block for Valencia, but it was warmer because I'd done the block in winter, the Gold Coast. So now we're approaching Brisbane summer, you know, I'm training through October, November, and I decided to go from about 140k as my peak week in Gold coast to 150k was my peak week for Valencia. So I got more K's in my legs. I added one double in the week, and I ran the sessions a lot faster. So if my average pace was 3/30s in the block for Gold Coast, I started averaging 322s to 323s for everything in the block for Valencia. So it was the same sessions, but, you know, I was minutes ahead of what I'd done for the first marathon block. So that was also a huge confidence booster for me. Just knowing how my heart rate was similar to the first block to the second, yet I'm running, you know, minutes faster per rep. And that was a really good indicator for me. I do. As much as I act like I'm more relaxed now, I still am very scientific with comparing notes and looking at my training log. And that was a big thing for me is comparing all of that.

So let us in on the secret. Are you going to replicate that training block for the third marathon?

I just had this conversation yesterday with my coach and I was really sad to hear we're not doing this block because it's not about time now. Paris, for anyone that doesn't know, is brutal. The course they've made is set up to create absolute carnage. I think it's from 15k. I think at 15k and 30k it's just monstrous hills. And my coaches essentially said it's going to be a tactical start where everyone's kind of looking at each other. Then it's going to turn into a 15k roller coaster matchup. And then from about 31, 32k, it's like downhill and flat to the end, but it's also going to be brutally hot. It's going to be at 8am Paris heat. So yeah, the training is going to be very different, which scares me a lot because I won't be able to do any of my comparing to my training log. But it's going to be hilly, fartlex thresholds, you know, long continuous stuff where you surge, the hills float, the downhills, which is exciting. I like that it's going to be something new. But we are, we're training for a whole different race now. And also for the people that don't might not quite realize when you do Valencia or Gold coast, it's essentially a time trial. You're essentially selecting a pace you think you can handle and you're heading out in a group and trying to hold that. Paris is going to be a women's only race, so no paces and it's going to be tactical. You know, it could go out in, in walking pace and then all of a sudden someone hits to surge and everyone's going to start chasing them. It's going to be absolutely wild and I'm excited and petrified at the same time.

That's awesome. I, yeah, I hadn't heard anything about the course, so it's, it's cool to know it's like that and something totally different. And yeah, it throws it unknown to every single athlete because everyone's going to probably have to prepare differently to what they're used to. So, last question on the training front. Midweek sessions, what kind of stuff were you doing? Yeah, for Gold coast and Valencia, just the main sets. I'm really interested in just kind of the volume of the reps and also how you attack from a marathon perspective compared to track. You know, the rest periods. Are you longer efforts and still quite short rest periods or how does that work? The structure.

Yeah, the interesting part where and the reason why I think my coach is, you know, very good at coaching for the marathon, is the way he structures the week is conservative in the sense that you have, we have hard track Tuesday morning, you know, week in and week out, and you do your marathon session Friday morning and that actually gives you two days in between, which a lot of people in our group aren't used to. Because in a normal typical week in mtc, you would go Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, long run Sunday. So there's actually not many rest days. But yeah, marathon block, you've got to respect that your legs are going to be very battered. And so Monday is usually just probably your easiest day of the week because you would have had a long run before it and you've got a hard session after it. So it's just, you know, an hour of running easy. But Tuesday morning, weirdly is still track stuff. Like it's. It's kind of what you would do if you were a 5k, 10k runner. It's. It's a collection of shorter reps and longer reps and sometimes fast and short recovery. Or then you now and then if you do something really hard, you might have a lap jog recovery, which we consider a long recovery. So it's like anywhere from two to two and a half minutes and that never stays the same. So my two marathon preps, even though the Friday session was the same through both preps, the Tuesday session was different. You know, every, every Tuesday it was maybe 8 by a K1 week, but off 1 minute recovery at 3:15s. But then the following week it might be mile 4, 4 hundreds off, 30 seconds of rest. Mile 4, 4, 4 hundreds, off, 30 seconds rest mile. You know, it's. It just changes and it is very similar to what you would do if you were still on the track. And I kind of like that you don't lose your speed completely. And then as I said, the Friday sessions are long reps. They start at 1k and then they go turn to 2k to 3k to 4k to 5k, 37k session. And then the Sunday long run will start at two hours. And as you move through the prep, it grows. So it goes 2 hours, 210, 220, 2, 30. 2:30 is where we cap it. We never run longer than that. And we might only do three to four of them in your prep and then they drop back down again. So another thing about the marathon week is as you move along, it gets bigger and heavier and harder. So it just starts piling up on top of each other because by the end, your K's are just blowing out because the sessions are getting longer and your long run is also increasing. And that's where the test comes in, is you learn to continue moving forward on more and more tired legs. And I think that's the beauty of the block. It is meant to get more and more challenging as you move forward.

If you hadn't qualified and you're trying to do a preparation block like that and you still needed to run a race, how would you. Would that look slightly different?

Yeah. See, what you would have to change is, you know, say I ran Valencia, which was December, and it didn't go to plan. I'd be then looking for the nearest marathon where I have enough rest to still run well, but also not too close to the qualifying ending period. So I probably would have picked something in Japan. And the girls did a lot of like Eloise Wellings did that Ellie Pashley, who was meant to be running in Valencia, ended up doing one in Japan. But you would change your prep if it was a bit close. So I've always had, you know, enough time in between, well, the one time in between my marathons to have a very good break and then feel ready to start a prep again. But if you're doing a turnaround of 10, 12 weeks, you'd need downtime and then you'd only be having maybe a six week lead up, so it would have to look different. And that's where our coach wouldn't necessarily follow the same protocol. It would change a little bit because you still have that block. That block lasts in your legs for a really long time. After Gold Coast, I did a lot of short racing with not much running training going on. And I felt like the fitness didn't fizzle out for two to three months. And then I noticed I was getting unfit. I was like, okay, I got to probably start training again and less racing because I felt my fitness start to fall. But a marathon block, and then with a marathon at the End of it is so much training and so much in your legs, it. It almost stays in there for two months really, without doing much topping up.

One of the things we're always super interested in is the taper week, because everyone varies a lot in the taper week or potentially taper 10 days or even longer. What was what worked for you both times? And yeah, what did that actually look like for you?

So for Gold coast, because I wasn't traveling, looking back now comparing it to Valencia, I. I didn't do anywhere near as much tapering. I also wasn't running a whole lot of K's, so I don't think my coach was too concerned about me being overly tired. But pretty much that 37k session, if it's on a Friday, two days later. So that Sunday is usually two weeks out. So you do 37k session on Friday, then that Sunday you'll drop your run from two and a half to just two hours. And then the following week, the Tuesday will look the same, but the Friday session will drop to just a 10k threshold. So probably even a 10k at marathon pace and then maybe a 90 minute long run on that Sunday. And then you're a week out. And then it's really that last week where you feel like you're just doing nothing. Your runs drop to like two minutes. You will do a Tuesday session, but it's maybe only 6k of work instead of 8k. And we did a few little. I kind of, when Nick gave it to me, I was like, what is this? On the Thursday before the race, we just had some minute efforts at marathon pace, like one minute with a minute jog in between. And I was like this, this is pointless. But it's just to make sure that your body still feels that pace, but it's trying to freshen up. So it's, it's. You could probably do anything as long as it's not too much. But he just thinks it's easy to give minute, minute reps and yeah, at marathon pace and then you're just pretty much jogging for. Then I went like 30 minutes the next day, 25 the day after that race day. But with Valencia, you've got a, A big thing was. Was the international travel right at the back end of the block. I flew in 12 days before the race. So I started a mini taper before flying, then flew to Valencia and then continued kind of a mini taper out of flying, which led into the exact same week as Gold coast with the Tuesday session. And then the, the minute Reps. We thought it was really funny though, because all us girls are on. We've all got the same coach. But on the Thursday he gave me four by one minute. He gave Izzy six by one minute. I think he gave Eloise five by one minute. And I'm like, why are we all like separated by a one minute rep? Like, this makes no sense. We all did it together and I think we all just like picked a number in between and did the same amount. But yeah, that, that's a really strange experience, tapering after such a big block. Because the athlete side of you wants to be like, no, no, no. Like, I want to stay fit. I don't want to lose all this fitness. I got to keep running. But then the other side of you is like, no, trust that it's there, trust that the work's in there. And now it's about prepping to feel good on Sunday and be ready to go.

It must have been a different feeling for both marathons to go in. Feeling probably pretty damn good, especially considering you think about your. What you've spoken with. From 2019 through to Tokyo, you basically never went to a race pain free. You were basically running continuously in pain. And you mentioned at the start of the podcast how you were getting up. You know, walking was tough. A lot of time in between training and that compared to, yeah, these, these preparations must have felt a lot better.

Yeah, I think that's been another thing that's allowed me to have so much enjoyment and love for the sport was all over again. Is I'm finally experiencing what it's like to run pain free and, and not be mentally exhausted after every run because of the pain you're feeling. And I still Even remember in 2021, you know, I was changing sponsors as well, so my shoe brain changed and like my feet were so sensitive that any form of change would completely derail me temporarily. And, and it was just the constant frustration of, of, of soreness. And then even post run you take your shoes off and like, I just couldn't walk properly for a few hours and then it would usually get more stiff, not loosen up. And I just can't believe how long I went being in pain. And I feel sorry for my past self because I just thought that was, that was the norm. That was what it was meant to feel like as an elite athlete. That's how your body's meant to feel. And now, you know, I'm sure it's for several reasons, but just being healthy now and being able to handle this training and Then also be able to just take my shoes off, play with my son, be energetic all day, not be sore, not be stiff in the middle of the night. Like all of that has just made me fall in love with it more all over again. Because you know, it isn't meant to be that hard.

Just before you go, dad, just a quick side note that we've gone a fair bit of time here, Jan. We have a couple more questions. Are you okay to stay on or do you need to head off?

Yeah, no, that's fine. I can answer what you got left.

Awesome. Go for it, dad.

Yeah, that's, that's a great answer. And the next step is being happy with no pain. But, but also your surroundings. Take us through how important that is. Having Ryan and Archer and you're feeling confident about everything that's happening in your family life. How much does that contribute to being happy as a runner?

Yeah, honestly, I think everyone's different. I mean I'm not trying to say that my husband is cold hearted but he's got a marathon coming up soon and we agreed that, you know, he's flying to Germany. He's just going to go alone. It's going to be a business trip. He's going to focus on his race race and then come straight home. And that's definitely the best decision for him because that's what like he feels he can focus best when he doesn't have to be concerned about his family. But I am the complete opposite. When it came to Gold coast and even Valencia and every race in between, I've brought the entourage of baby, husband, babysitter, which is my mom, her partner and that's where I'm happiest. And I think at this end of my career and kind of at this point in my life, that's how I want it to be. I don't want to do these solo business trips anymore because I feel that will also take the love out of it for me. And a great example of this was Valencia because I had only run 228. At the time the elite field were only accepting athletes that had run under 225. And so they, in a normal situation as an elite athlete, your, your flights are covered, you're usually put up in a hotel which you know, comes with food and transport to the race and all of that. But in this situation, which it was a great investment, I didn't have any cover and I wasn't in the elite elite field, I was just in the like sub elite which meant they wouldn't be putting any money towards us coming. And so for me, I still wanted my family there. You know, Ryan said, how about you just go 12 days out? You can focus, you can sleep well, don't have to worry about Archer, and just run a good race and come home. And to me, I felt that. That it's a lot of money already to fly over and be lonely. And what if the race doesn't go well? You know, I don't want to be in Valencia alone, grieving a whole marathon block and a bad run. I would rather have you guys there and I'll forget about it, and we can have a family holiday and, you know, it'll just be a bad run, and that's all it'll be. And so we decided that the best thing, mentally, was to bring everyone. Bring my mom, her partner, Archer, Ryan. We got an Airbnb. We had planned a trip to Dubai afterwards, whatever the result. And of course, it was like the best case scenario. And I run really well, and we're celebrating. But for me, lining up on that start line, I felt so relaxed because I thought, if today doesn't go to plan, I have no regrets because I have had the most fun over the last two weeks. My baby's out there, my husband's out there, my mom's out there. Like. Like, this is all I could have ever wanted. I'm giving it a shot, and that's all that matters. And I think it allowed me to relax. I think it allowed me to just run so carefree. I had Ryan handing me drinks. I just. I'd never felt better. And I think that's kind of like, my way of performing best. And, you know, I've. Over the last few days, I've just been running down dates and flight times and Airbnb dates because I'm making everyone come to Paris. And however we manage to do it, we're going to do some altitude training beforehand and then drop down to Paris. I want everyone there so that no matter what happens, good or bad, it's more about, you know, again, it sounds very cliche, but it's more about the journey for me, because if I'm loving what I'm doing, it doesn't matter what the result is, because it was, you know, a fun trip. And I just think that's important for many people to look at what they're doing. If they realize they're not enjoying the whole process of it, bad days are going to really hurt. Because it's like, how do you justify this? If you're not even enjoying the process. But if you are enjoying what you're doing and you have a bad day, it's so easy to move forward because it's like, oh, well, that didn't go to plan. Let's focus on the next thing.

That's the last question I want to ask. And the last point I want to finish off on is that mindset that you just are so strong in and that it's about the process and journey. And we preach that message as much as we can on this podcast because too many, we see too many athletes put all of their happiness into the result, and then if it doesn't go their way, they can't come back from it, because that's where they've put everything into. Whereas when you put it into the journey and the process, then of course you want a great result. But that doesn't define your worth outside of yourself as an athlete. And, and I think just anyone that saw the heartbreak in Tokyo and anyone that watched that race and saw those images and they are so heartbreaking to see. And to hear all your interviews after in that period was just so tough to watch. And then to know that you were going to come from there to where you are now is one of the most special journeys we've seen in athletics, I think. But one of my favorite things about the journey is you went on a podcast and you were still so fresh into your journey on the way back. I think it was still only a year after, or I think you were pregnant with Archer when you went on this podcast and they asked you, what is success? How do you define success now? Because you can't define it on results. And you said that success is at the moment, at that time, anything but performance based. And I want to read what you said by quote. And it was, the road has been so difficult. I've been so proud of what I've done. But I do it because I'm genuinely passionate about exercise and running. And it's not about medallions and pbs. It's being about being mentally strong when you face adversity and being inspiring even when you're injured. And I think that for a professional athlete whose career, whose income, whose sponsors are defined by results, for you to be able to say that at that point in time, that it's about the process, then I think we all need to believe it too. So can you just finish off and talk to us and finish off with that mindset about how much you believe in the process rather than the outcome?

Yeah, well, I'm Glad that you'd written that down because I feel like sometimes I do a lot of these interviews and not remember what I said, because I like Blackout. But that's exactly it. I think people expect elite athletes to only be driven by the medals or the sponsors or the prize money or whatever it is that they're rewarded with when they do well. But it's, it's so much more than that. If you love, love what you're doing. And that's why when I get parents come to us, like with their kids and, and they ask for advice, I think the most important thing is, are they loving what they're doing? And, and that's for any age. I'm just saying the example I have is, is with parents and their kids, because I can confidently say I love what I do and I always, always have. So, yes, Tokyo was upsetting as a professional athlete to DNF and Olympics final, but for that exact same reason, I knew that wasn't going to be the end because that's not how I'm going to finish off such a great career that I've been so lucky to have. It wasn't going to finish in a dnf. And in that moment of that podcast, I may not have been 100% confident of where I was heading at the end of this comeback journey, but I was more than 100% sure that I was enjoying trying to the comeback and I wasn't ever going to give up knowing I hadn't tried. And I think everyone needs to really kind of decide when they start a journey like this, if it's really what they want to do. Because if it is, then there's so many rewards along the way. Little tiny ones that you can sit in at night and, and think, think to yourself, wow, I'm so proud I did this. And, and now. And then when I'm at the qas for Jim, I look at the pool, the recovery center, and I'm like, wow, how did I turn up there every day and, and pool run for hours, staring at a blank wall with the thought that maybe I would get back. And that's just how I look at it now. But at the time, there was so much hope and belief that I didn't find that as mind zapping as it sounds, it was, it was just another day, another step closer to where I wanted to be. And I loved it. I loved that part of my life. And yeah, I just think that success cannot be measured by the final result or the PB or the medallion or the prize. Money or whatever it is you're chasing, it has to be measured by the steps you're taking and whether it's bettering you as a person and making you happier and just fitting into your life the way it should. It shouldn't be a punishment or a chore. It should be a choice and a hobby.

Such a great way to finish. Yeah, really, really awesome. Just absolutely loved watching your journey. As we've said many times this podcast. Thank you very much, Jen, for joining us here and thanks for being gracious with your time and talking to us for so long. I know you've got a baby there to look after. Any final words from you dad?

No, thank you. Thank you again. I'll just reiterate what Jordan said and we can't wait to see how the journey continues. And knowing now that you've got a long term plan up to 2032, that's going to be pretty exciting. And the short term plan is Paris and we'll be all cheering you on from the lounge couches. And I hope the preparation goes really well and we look forward to seeing you have a fantastic experience at Paris and whether that's, you know, getting the result you want or whether it's you just achieving some more success, it's. It doesn't really matter, as you just said. So, so good luck with that and thanks again for all of your advice to all our listeners.

No, thank you so much, guys. I've, I've loved chatting about everything. You didn't repeat any questions. I don't feel like, I feel like we covered so much. Thanks for bearing with me and my terrible Internet in my home. Yeah, this has been a great chat and I really appreciate the support. I hope that, yeah, when I'm in Paris, you can remember everything I said and, and hopefully it's going to plan out there on that brutal course.

We'll be cheering for you. We'll be watching. So thanks, Jen, and thank you to everyone for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.

Sam.