Get This Man A Contract: Jimmy Whelan

Yeah, I mean, obviously, this job kind of fell onto my lap initially. Like, it just. It just happened. And then all of a sudden, I was living in Europe and I didn't have the appreciation for what I had. I didn't truly understand. Yeah. The situation I was in.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of coaching, Jared Donnelly. Today's episode is a extremely special story, and we say that a lot on this podcast, and that's because we're lucky enough and we're very grateful to get to interview and speak to some very special athletes and very special humans with incredible stories. But unfortunately, this story doesn't have a happy ending yet, and we want that to change. And the story of Jimmy Whelan as an athlete and as a professional cyclist is absolutely one you want to hear. He was picked up very quickly when he was very new to cycling after being a very talented runner by EF Education and spent three years in a professional contract before losing his contract after having a. A poor year with no racing results due to two horrific crashes where he was put out for a lot of the year. And unfortunately, that's the. The cruel nature of the sport is even though he was crashed and injured, he didn't get a chance to keep proving himself and so lost his contract. But his motivation for being a professional cyclist and making that his life and making that his profession and his job has not waned. And he spent the last couple of years doing everything in his power to keep training like a professional athlete to get himself back onto a World Tour team, but it hasn't happened yet. And he has some incredible results to his name, which started with winning the under 23 tour of Flanders, his first European racing win, which actually got him his professional contract, as well as his best result being second at the Australian Road Nationals in 2022 last year, first. First at the Santos Festival of Cycling, which was a Tour down under event that happened in the COVID year of 2022, as well as an incredible performance in this year's National Road Race, where he was a standout performer and one of the strongest riders on the day, where he was really trying to show his cards of why he should be picked up by a pro team. And this episode was quite tough on Jimmy, to be honest. He really let us kind of ask him some pretty hard questions about his situation and his story is awesome. Hearing about his training is awesome. He's currently living in Andorra. It's so cool to always hear about what specific training sessions athletes are doing, how they're approaching heat acclimatization and altitude acclimatization. But the key to his story is the fact that he is doing everything in his power to get a job again, and he's doing it all. Unemployed, earning no money, training like a professional cyclist, trying to make it back in. And, dad, you just said to me before we started recording this intro how hard it would be to sit there and have to answer questions about how hard his situation is. Yet he opened up fully, and that's truly a motivating story.

Wow, Jord. Yeah, it's one of the better podcasts that we've ever had. And why is that? Well, never had someone so openly be vulnerable, because that's the situation he's in. He's basically unemployed. He wants to be a professional bike rider, and he has been a professional bike rider, but he's in limbo. And it's a really hard situation because he has no way of proving himself again, because unless you go to a bike race and win it, then no one's going to see or hear from you ever again. So. So this is a really hard situation to be in. And the good thing is, his mindset is in fantastic condition. He's also a very talented bike rider. Anybody who can win the Tour of Flanders and win the Australian under 23 road title and come second in the Open National Road title has talent, and that's not in dispute here. We know he's talented. He's super talented. What is the problem is that it's just circumstances have prevailed against him to actually be able to do the thing he loves the most, which is ride his bike in a competitive situation. He loves riding his bike full stop, but he loves also racing his bike. And this is a story of a guy. And we had a really great interview with Locky Morton not long ago, ironically from the same EF education team, and they're two vastly different stories. And Jimmy wants to be a professional competitive racer, and he knows why he's doing it and the reasons why he's sticking it out. When he doesn't have a contract, he's still training his backside off to make sure that if an opportunity arises, he'll be ready and able to slot straight into any race that any sports director or World Tour team has available to him. So it's an example of resilience. It's an example of vulnerability. It's an example of consistency. It's an example of persistence. He's showing all these characteristics that I would love to have if I was going into the trenches, as they say, against the opposition. He has these in spades and he has the talent. So I'm hoping it's only a matter of time before things open up for him and he ends up getting the contract that he so desperately wants so he can spend the next five, 10 years being the professional bike rider that he wants to be. And I now know he appreciates everything he had before. And as we've said many times, you know, you only. You only appreciate things once it's taken away from you, and that could not be more obvious in this situation. And he's not a sad sack looking for sympathy. That's not what he's doing. He's just so determined to put himself out there, to get an opportunity again to do the thing that he loves. And I hope everybody enjoys this because it was one of the better podcasts that we've ever done.

The similarities between him and Locky Morton are striking, even though it's kind of two different situations where Locky was trying to get away from road cycling a little bit and Jimmy's trying to get into road cycling. But their mindsets are so similar in that they're both trying to do what they love and absolutely love that about it. So it's hard to articulate exactly why this story is so motivating and so captivating. And we'll just have to let you listen to the episode and really take in everything he's saying. It's another long one, but it's worth every second. And so. And I'm sure once you hear it, you'll feel the same way about Jimmy and you'll be just as big fans as we are and you'll be screaming his name to everyone to back him and back another Australian cyclist to get on the World Tour circuit. So, without further ado, here is the episode with Jimmy Wheeland. Jimmy Wheelen. Thank you so much for jumping onto the podcast. Big welcome to you. The first question we like to ask is, what training session did you do today?

Well, It's. So it's 6pm for you guys, it's 8am For. For me. So the only session I've done is I've had a shower and I've gotten out of bed.

Yeah. So I did know that I was on autopilot sessions the last 24 hours.

Yeah. I mean, yesterday I did five and a half hours. I'm in Andorra at the moment. So I did five and a half hours of hilly high zone two climbing. Nothing crazy. But up here at the altitude it's five and a half hours. At any zone is, is challenging. So yeah, five and a half hours yesterday, did the sauna in the afternoon and then I have a rest day today. So just an easy two hours.

What's the elevation that you're living at?

So I'm currently at 1998 meters, which is a bit disappointing. I wish I was another two meters uphill. But yeah, I'm at more or less 2,000 meters. And yeah, it's a, it's a good place to train. It's beautiful. I'm in the Pyrenees here. Yeah.

So we want to dive into your background and, and how you've gotten here because your journey as a cyclist has been a little bit different. You came into cycling quite late and you had some rapid progression, but you were a runner before that. And we're really interested in that side of things because most runners get on the bike and absolutely hate it and they're no good at it. So tell us a little bit about your background as a runner first and how that developed into you becoming a professional cyc.

Yeah, as you said, I was a runner through my school years. So it was kind of my identity throughout school. Throughout primary school I played soccer and football and all the other sports. And then throughout high school I kind of did running more or less full time. And yeah, my, my favorite event was probably the 1500. The peak of my athletic career probably came at about the Zadapec under 23, 000 meters, which I'm sure probably some of the listeners would know. And Yeah, I finished fourth in that event. I think I ran 8, 16 for 3K. Yeah. And yeah, I was a runner still until the first year uni. And then I went across onto the bike following a bit of an injury. And yeah, I thought it was the end of the world at the time that my running career was coming to an end. But it turned out it was a bit of a blessing in disguise. So yeah, now I'm a full time cyclist.

What was the injury that, that dragged you off the track and onto the bike?

Yeah, so I 2015 New Year's up in Falls Creek. I basically trained too much and didn't recover enough and then went straight down to a track session down in Melbourne and tore a bit of my Achilles. And it wasn't, it definitely wasn't a career ending injury. But at the Time it was just really difficult to put days together. And yeah, I then went across onto the bike for some cross training and then I actually really enjoyed riding and I thought, well, uh, yeah, why not give it a go? Um, I was struggling with injuries before that too, so I was just really having a bad run with running. And you know what running is like, it's savage. It's. I was getting all these small niggles and I just couldn't put the training together to become the athlete I wanted to be. Um, yeah.

Is, is that a bit contrasting now? Because on the bike you really can train a lot more than you can as a runner. And I'm being quite general generalizing here, but if you train like you do as a bike rider and you are a, the risk is so much greater of breaking down and actually not being able to maintain that consistency, which is I think what you love so much about the bike compared to, I mean you still obviously would love to be able to run, I imagine. But is that, is that something that you, you would see straight away, the difference between the two?

Yeah, it's a huge difference in the training. Like a pretty standard ride now is five hours for me and that's just, it almost feels like a maintenance day in a way. Um, so yeah, I, I definitely do miss that about running, that it was a lot more time efficient. Um, but yeah, it is, it is something that I'm lucky to have all day, every day, still train. So riding my bike and doing pro hours is, is a luxury and it's, and it's an amazing thing about cycling is that you can do, yeah, five hours, 25, 30 hour week, back to back. And yeah, I, my Achilles is still fine, so this is nice. Yeah.

How long was that timeframe between once you started riding as a bit of cross training to the point where you were basically riding full time and deciding to give cycling a big crack.

Yeah. So at the end of 2015 and to the start of 2016, I kind of had a year where I was trying to quote, unquote, find myself. I guess I went to Europe with a mate for three months where I definitely was not a professional athlete in any way. Um, and I came back from Europe and I, I, I wanted to sort myself out a bit. I didn't quite feel myself. So that's when I started to, to cross train on the bike and then, yeah, basically the start of 2016, I rode 20 plus hours a week for the whole year and then raced domestically in 2017. Um, and then raced over, started racing overseas in 2018. So it was a really fast progression. Um, crazy fast actually.

Uh, yeah, take, take us back to when you, when you hung up the spikes and, and, and thought that I'm going to give the cross training a little bit of a go. Was there a point where you were going to go back to running once the Achilles had healed and you, you just, you had enough of the bike and, and running was going to be your thing or whatever? How did that change? What happened?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, As I said 2015, I wasn't trying to be an athlete in any way. I didn't really have ambitions to be the runner or a cyclist. But then that changed in 2016 and I was still putting together 20 hour weeks on the bike and I was also still running a lot, so I didn't really know what I was doing. I was, yeah, doing 20 plus hours on the bike and then still running 70, 80Ks a week. Um, and yeah, I was, that was probably the closest I was to a triathlete. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I've never really given a proper try. Um, but that, that's, that's a question I can answer later in my life maybe. Um, never say never. I basically realized that I could make something of cycling when I was doing the criteriums in Melbourne. I'm sure you guys know the Hawthorne Criterium and the Glenvale Criterium. And then I started doing the, the group rides, the North Road ride in the morning, Wednesday morning long you guys in Melbourne. So I guess you kind of know this lingo.

Yep.

And that's when I really fell in love with the bike. And yeah, it was completely different sport to running. I really missed my, my running friends and I missed doing fast K reps around the track, but other than that, yeah, I, I had a strong passion for cycling and that's when I said, okay, start of 2016, let's go all in. And then I guess my first big result was the under 23 nationals in 2017. And then, and then the following year, I know a few months later after that. Yeah, winning my first European bike race, which then accelerated my development process. And two weeks later I had a pro contract with EF Pro Cycling.

Um, yeah, let's not, let's not skim over the first European ratio 1. It's one of the, one of the big races and just take us through that. And obviously it's coming up in two weeks time. That exact race, for those who don't know, the Tour of Flanders obviously is, is One of the biggest, the big Spring Classic races. And, and you've won the under 23 version of that. How, how special was that? And how, how, how did. That's changed your life clearly that, that victory. So take us through that.

Yeah. At the time when I won that race, I had no idea that what it meant. I was still so new to the sport that I was obviously really fit and still training hard and was really ambitious. But I didn't realize that winning that race would give me a professional contract so much. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I did the Australian nationals and then was able to make the selection for the Australian team and I actually copped a bit of criticism from a few of my cycling mates and also the cycling team at the time because I decided to do that race instead of doing the Tour of Thailand with the team. In theory, I'm a climber and I was going to the Tour of Flanders and it was a bit of a cost to get there etc. And in the end it was a good decision. And yeah, I mean I was staying with Cyrus Monk, another Victorian boy who's now on Q 36.5. We were, yeah, we flew all the way to Europe just for that one race. So we stayed in Oudenard, which is the start finish location for the race, reconned it for two weeks and then we did the bike race. Cyrus finished in top 10 and I won it and then we flew back to Melbourne and my life would never be the same again. So.

What was the thought behind that decision? Like not to go with the team and decide to do Flanders when you didn't know much about it?

Well, the way, the way I looked at it is I was really fit at the time and so was Cyrus. And it made sense to go to an early season European bike race where perhaps all the other boys were still in the preseason mode. And the, the weather had been really bad in Europe leading up to that race. So we kind of knew that if we bought the, the fitness from the Australian summer across against a bunch of European lads that we might actually have a chance. All we need to do is study the course and we could run a drum. And yeah, the, our drabback development team gave us a chance to take this opportunity which we're really grateful for. And yeah, it pulled. It worked out.

Take. Take us through. Actually you, you won solo and take us through. How that, how that panned out for you? Just if you can.

Yeah. So the under 23 race for this year's edition was actually quite the hilly finishing circuit So I knew that if I could get to the finishing circuit, which was about 45 kilometers, four laps of a circuit that had four climbs on it, more or less a minute and a half long, and which actually suits me really well. At the time, I trained physiologically for these, for this type of race. Um, and yeah, I knew with the nature of Yona 23 racing, there's no real team structure that if I could get to that finishing circuit and I could attack solo, then that was my chance to try and win the bike race. And that's what happened. Um, there was maybe 50 guys coming into the circuit and there was a lot of cat mousing, politics, all these things. Um, and yeah, I just attacked over the top of one of the bergs and the only thing that went with me was the. The camera motorbike. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you know which burger was specifically for our spring classics enthusiasts?

There was a wolf. The Wolvenburg, over the top of that one. I can't even. I can't actually remember the exact. The other three climbs, but yeah, the finish was in ordinar, so you would.

Have done the Petterberg and the Koppenberg and the Quaromont, I imagine.

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Yes, Yep.

So it's pretty cool. It was pretty surreal, just as an Aussie, to be on those climbs. Yeah. In a bike race. I mean, at the time, I. If there was any person that didn't understand the significance of that race in that, in that, out of all those guys in that race was probably me. Yeah.

That's awesome. That's such a cool part of the story. One, One thing about your. Your rapid rise into World Tour cycling is how little time you had to figure out. Figure out yourself on the bike and figure out racecraft and figure out positioning and cornering and descending and especially going to a race with such crazy cobbles. How did you find going to Europe? And it's. It's crazy riding through that terrain with such little experience. You've basically been riding for a couple of years by then. How did you find that going over there and then suddenly thrown into some absolutely intense bunch riding in some crazy terraining courses?

Yeah, I mean, as I said, my progression from runner to domestic cyclist was pretty quick, let alone from domestic cyclist to World Tour pro. I mean, if I. If I actually look at it, it's probably one of the fastest, if not the fastest progression. Like I. One funny fact is I turned. I got a pro contract before I ever got the feedback from the side of the road, which is just Bizarre. And yeah, at the time I, I thought it was like absolutely amazing and. But I, I didn't realize how unqualified I was from a technical and skill perspective and even just tactical as well. Yeah, I mean, learning the craft in Australia, road cycling that is, is, it's, you can learn quite fast, but the craft in Europe is completely different. Um, and it's horribly dangerous if you don't know what you're setting yourself up for. And yeah, so the biggest thing is, yeah, just the bunch craft and you're racing against guys where this just comes natural. They've been racing since they were 10 years old and yeah, so, yeah, at the time, ignorance is a bliss. If I had have signed that contract knowing what I was signing up for and what I didn't know then I would have been, yeah, quite, quite nervous about the three years coming up. But it was a bit of a sink or swim situation. I had my first pro year at EF where I got over 60 race days in all different types of races and I was really able to knuckle down and learn what this European bike racing thing was. And yeah, I can confidently say that I understand the sport now and, but, but at the time I, I certainly didn't. Yeah.

Was, was there anybody who took you under their wing once you signed that contract and acted almost like a mentor and Jonathan Vaughters is, was the, the head of EF at that stage, is that correct?

Yeah, exactly. So he still is the, the big boss at ef. He runs the show there. And, and yeah, they put some resources into. Yeah, I mean, firstly, I don't think they realized how new I was. A lot of the directors. I think it's safe to assume that if someone's signing a World Tour contract, they would assume that they would know the basics of bike racing and et cetera and just skim straight over that. But yeah, a few of the directors in the team just quickly realized that, yeah, this guy's so new, which is exciting, but also we need to teach him. And also, it was also, it's also important for me because I was learning everything new and you learn habits and you create habits straight away. So it was important to create those habits in a good way. Yeah. Because it just becomes routine then. But yeah, like, for example, the team got me a descending coach, where I had one on one sessions, three sessions in Girona in Spain, where I was riding around in a car park learning the limit of the bikes, my falling off, almost just learning the limit of the tire, which, which was a Lot more than I thought it would. And this really helped my descending, for example, because in Australia I'd never raced down a descent. It's quite rare in the Australian situation to be racing down a 12 kilometer berg with 150 other riders. So. And if you don't know how to do it in a situation like that, it's actually very dangerous. So yeah, we did that. And then also have my personal director who's actually, who actually lives in Melbourne over the Australian summer, Tom Southern, he's from the uk, from Bristol and he's a director on EF and he's been a mentor of mine and he really was able to communicate with the team just how new I was and was able to expose this to the team and say, hey, this guy needs this, this, this. And if I go to a race he'll tell the director at that team that I'm so new. And it was also important for me to communicate that with riders within the team. But yeah, I mean the expectation was they realized this, but they also expected me to learn pretty quick too, which I was able to do. So yeah.

How did you feel that you went in those early days? Did you feel like you came up to speed very quickly and did the other riders in your team kind of respect your ability over your lack of race experience?

Yeah, I think a lot of riders didn't realize how new I was. So as I said, I, I just had to learn fast. Um, and I did learn really quick. So within a few months of racing in Europe, I was able to do everything that was required of me as a supporting rider. Um, so the biggest shock was UAE Tour coming across from Australia and then riding in my first ever Cross r Cross wind race. Um, and there's no better example of high bunch stress than the UAE Tour because everyone is so close together. And for me this was the most difficult thing to relax and to just learn the craft. It was when you're coming into a sprint and you need to be when, yeah, you have 150 guys in a, in a small 4 by 4 meter space. It's pretty crazy. And just having handlebars bump against you at the time, that was so foreign to me. But I had seven days to, for the first few days to be super uncomfortable and then the next few days be more comfortable and in the last few days just have it be a natural thing. So that was really good.

Oh, I was going to say you're really seriously thrown in the deep end when you said sink or swing before. It was the perfect Analogy because you just suddenly thrown into these massive tours. You said you did 60 races across that first year. It must have been a whirlwind first two years of you just learning, training, getting thrown into these situations. How do you see that period now? Is it, is it, was it just a whirlwind of you just, just seeing how well you could do?

Yeah, yeah. Looking back at it, it's pretty like I'm actually super impressed with how I managed it at the time. I just kind of rode the wave, didn't really stress. Just. Yeah, just, just. I just put myself in situations to see how I reacted and I reacted really well. And yeah, looking back at it, it's crazy. What I didn't know. But then all you need to do is just be put in a situation, observe the people around you, copy them, and then have that be your behavior. So yeah, if you can learn from others and your attention to detail is high and you're able to look at yourself critically and be aware of what you're doing, then you can learn pretty fast. Um, and that's with anything that's bike riding or. Yeah.

At what point did you start to think, okay, I'm feeling a lot more comfortable. I've, I've got some ability and, and clearly they selected you on ability because, you know, your performance in, in that one race and your, and your, your power numbers and we might talk about that in a minute, you know, at, at elite level like the rest of the, the pro peloton. So you deserve to be there. At what point. But what point could you start to concentrate on? Can I now start everything I've learned in this such a short time? How can I start winning some bike races to prove myself to, to the team that I'm in? At what point did that start to become foremost in your mind?

Yeah, I mean, I mean the, that idea was, was not a goal in my first year pro. It was to to be as resilient as possible, to be as healthy as possible, and to make sure that I could go to as many bike races as possible and do my job. So my personal ambitions as an athlete were secondary and I still wanted to do well, obviously, but just to do my job for another rider was an incredibly high task already. And then I came into the second year and obviously Covid happened. Unfortunately the team decided for me not to do the nationals and to prioritize the early season European racing, which was, which was fine. And yeah, unfortunately I didn't race until more or less August. And once, yeah, once the Pandemic kind of opened up again and bike racing became a thing. Um, yeah.

Was that. Was that one of your first races back? Might have been the Giro. Is that right? In 2020?

Yeah, exactly. So I only did two races in 2020. So I did the Tour of Poland and the Giro. Um, and yeah, so that's a week long World Tour stage race, Tour of Poland, which is one of the hardest races on the calendar, especially after everyone's been stuck indoors, everyone's raring to race their bike. And yeah, then I did my first Grand Tour, which was absolutely amazing. I was happy with my. Yeah, I mean, as you were saying before, my role as a rider was evolving, so I was no longer just doing the domestic work and I started to have some personal pressure from myself and from the team to start performing. Um, and yeah, in Tour of Poland, I was looking after Nielsen palace for the GC and I had a few strong rides where I was in the. In the break. And yeah, I was happy with the form. Finished top 20 on GC, which doesn't seem like much, but personally I was really proud of that result. And it was just a reflection of me starting to piece together, obviously, the technical skills and the racing craft that I had to put together in my first year, and then also the physiological demands of racing. So if you can put those two together, then you can start thinking about, yeah, GC stuff. Um, and that's where I was able to gain my first selection in a Grand Tour at the Giro, which was the highlight of my cycling career so far. It was absolutely incredible.

Anyone that knows cycling knows a top 20 result in a Tour like Tour of Poland is incredible. And then obviously to this, that just defines, I think your. Your rapid progression. We keep using that word, but it is just extreme to go from getting a pro contract to a Grand Tour in that short amount of time. Talk us through the Giro, one that you just said, one of the best experiences or the best experience of your career, getting to write a Grand Tour, trying to put everything together. How was it?

Yeah, it was a really hectic three weeks, three and a half weeks. It was in October, which is obviously different to the normal time of year in May. So it was quite cold. And yeah, just given the. The fact that, yeah, Covid happened and there was no bike racing for half a year. It was really intense racing. And yeah, which doesn't matter if it was or if there was Covid or wasn't Covid. It was going to be intense racing regardless. But the biggest question for me was to See if I could handle the fatigue and the load of back to back 300 TSS days and just see if my body would, yeah, adapt to it. Adapt to it or whether it would crumble and I'd get to Milan absolutely fizzed and wanting to take three months off the bike, but my training would suggest that my resistance fatigue was super high. Um, so I was actually excited to see if I could stay healthy without crashing all these things, stay relaxed, don't not get too stressed in the first week that maybe a chance to chase a stage in the second or third week was quite viable. Um, and yeah, I didn't quite have that opportunity and yeah, I still got through it. Our main objective, well, my main objective was to help out Ruben Guerrero who won the KOM jersey. Um, so there was a few times during that race where Reuben might miss the breakaway and then this would threaten him losing the. The KOM jersey. So I'd have to chase. Chase the breakaway at the front. And yeah, people weren't too happy when I would do that because the race was formed and then we would open up the race again. Um, so, yeah, that was my, yeah, main achievement. And even just, just getting to Milan, to be honest, was an achievement itself.

Just finishing. Yeah.

And then. And then, yeah, a week after I spent two weeks in a hotel in Australia. Yeah, crazy.

It is.

And yeah, that would have been a proud, A proud experience for you to. I'm interested in. In what was the team's reaction at the end? You know, you were a contributor to getting the, the KOM jersey. And, and secondly, how, how did you prepare for your body to absorb that load day after day after day? What's, what specific things do you think contributed you for you to be able to, to actually get through that as your first Grand Tour?

Yeah. So before the Tour of Poland, which was closely followed by the Duo, I did two really big altitude blocks in Andorra. So I did three weeks up at altitude and a week of rest down at sea level and then another three and a half weeks at altitude, more or less averaging 30 hours a week on the bike. Um, I think my biggest week was 36 hours on the bike, um, and just accumulating that fatigue where I do, yeah, big four day blocks, five, six hours, lots of climbing and essentially simulating the load of the duo and seeing if my body could handle it. And I was at altitude. And so I guess from a physiological perspective, this is what I was doing to my body to make sure that I could try and cope with doing my first Grand Tour, which I was able to do.

In those sessions. Were you, you said you're doing four days and then were you having some recovery? What was happening in those four days? Were they all similar? Just trying to get out there and do four to six hours each or did you have some areas where you would maybe do a 10 minute effort here or, or have a little crack for 20 minutes here or there? Take us through what that looked like.

Yeah. So with my coach, Nathan Brown, Nate Brown, he's an American and an in house coach at EF Pro Cycling and still is a coach at EF Pro Cycling, he would do personalized programs for all his athletes. So the training would look different between different athletes within the team. And for me, what worked really well was three or four day blocks where I would have structure in there, but the structure was always at the front of the blocks. And then I would have general endurance at the back end. So I'd make sure that I'm always fresh to do the work. So I'd have for example, high torque work. So locating stuff classic would just be 6 by 8 minutes at 50 cadence. 340 watts for example. And maybe in between the. And the rest. In between those I'll be doing high cadence and then also some, some zone three climbing, maybe sometimes zone four, getting close to threshold, but nothing really too hard. Um, it was actually, when I look back at it, it's actually quite easy training and I think that's because the amount of load I was doing and then also the altitude. I find that if I start doing the high. Yeah. Like the VO2 work and even into threshold, that it starts eating into my reserves and then I actually can't adapt and absorb the work at altitude. I end up getting too fatigued. Um, so yeah, I think that answers that.

It's really, it really is awesome insight. It's the stuff we absolutely love finding out on this podcast. And so I want to keep going with that. So there, that's an example of some of the hard days and then those back endurance days. How long are you going and are you really specific with what zone you're in? So you trying to stay, you know, below that first lactate threshold, standing in zone one and two. And is that, is that really strict or do you have a bit of free range just to see how you're feeling in those rides? Give us some example of the volume and intensity there.

Yeah, yeah. So the big days, that would kind of round off of 43 day block. It would depend on how fatigued I am as to what I was doing. He would be, my coach, would put in a few, say for example, three times 10 minutes at 340 watts. So nothing crazy. Like my threshold at the time was around 380, 390. So more than manageable. But given the context, maybe I was quite tired and maybe I could do the session, but I actually wanted to prioritize my next block. And I'll just do endurance. So a lot of time on the climbs, just 250 watts. I'll do cadence work down the climbs too, which is something that not many people talk about because here in Andorra you can spend all day, every day just riding 20k an hour, 15k an hour, and then you free will the descents and you've actually done no work at race pace. So you lose that kind of zap and that kind of. Yeah, I mean, you guys know what it's like when you, when you're going 45k an hour. You need to be efficient and with your form and your cadence. So yeah, obviously you don't get that riding 15k an hour upper burg. So yeah, yeah.

Your main principle, dad, is not letting any athlete freewheel downhill. It's kind of your absolute go to rule.

But it is interesting that a lot of the riding around the hills that you could end up just riding low gear and then if you ride too hard on a lot of the climbs, you are going to freewheel to recover. And it's so spot on for all the listeners out there. It is really important in a six hour ride you could actually freewheel for an hour if you ride a lot of the climbs too hard. And keeping the pressure on the pedals is one of the things that, you know, we, we're really adamant that, you know, to stop the freewheeling as much as possible. Even if you're just rolling your legs over on a climb that you're pedaling can't keep up with the, the resistance. Is that something that you did a lot of the high cadence stuff and, and, and made sure that because you're in, in Andorra with so much climbing that you were keeping your, your legs, you know, a little bit fresher?

Yeah, exactly. And I think, yeah, just from a stimulus perspective, it's good for your legs. As I was saying, like riding out the climbs, you end up riding everywhere at 80 cadence. And I'm a, which is amazing for my, for me because I'm a spinner. So I, I would do a, create a not average 115 cadence. I look like I look like I'm on junior gears. So coming to Andorra, I actually can get old man strength going up the climbs, which is nice, but I do have to do that. Yeah, the. The cadence work to make sure I don't lose the zappiness, I guess. And I actually, the reason why I first tapped into this was I. When I first came up here in 2019, I rode with Rowan Dennis, and he was talking about. I was just asking about his training, and he's like, what do you do up here in Andorra that's different to what you do somewhere else? And then he mentioned this, that, yeah, the climbs are amazing, but they can also work against you. Um, obviously, bike racing is so fast, so use the downhills as a stimulus, too, which also means you have to respect the uphills and, yeah, vice versa.

What's your go to cadence now on. On flat course, flat road, More or less a hundred. Still pretty high.

Yeah.

I want to keep asking about altitude because it's. It's so different for how everyone responds physiologically. So you're living at 2,000 meters. How high are some of the climbs that you're getting to? Adjustments do you need to make in terms of how your body can respond because it's so easy to push it too far, as you said, and you just won't be able to recover. And can you give us some examples of depending on how high you're getting? Yeah. What zone you're trying to stick to? And that must be tough to decide, because in a race, you can't choose to back off just because you're getting higher altitude. The race is the race. So talk us through that process for you.

It does get complicated when you are living at 2,000 meters. And, yeah, when you're accumulating the amount of stress that you can accumulate up here. Yeah, it can definitely be used to your advantage, but it can also really undo your training, and it can undo your season if you're not careful. So, yeah, here in Andorra, as I said, I'm living at 2000 meters. I can go. I can turn left outside my apartment and go down to Spain, which is more or less at 600 meters. So I can do the live high train low, which I'm sure many people are familiar with. I can go right and keep going up to 2500 meters, which then takes me down into France. And again, the way I feel turning right is very different to how I feel if I do a session going, turning left from my apartment. And so it's just important for me to understand the stresses of both. And yeah, like for example, if I'm training here in the summer and I've got a race coming up that's at sea level, that's going to be really hot. So for example, Tour of Poland in 2020, I was going down to Spain, down to 600 meters, not because of the sea level, but also because it was hot. So I still needed to do that heat stimulus to make sure that I could cope with the heat at the race. Cause if I was doing all my training up here at 2000 meters, I wouldn't be heat adapted. Um, so. And then also at sea level, you can do the, well, 600 meters in Spain, you can do the, the intensity that's required for the race. Um, yeah, I think that answers that kind of.

I was gonna say. Yeah, it definitely does. Um, it's, it's just super fascinating to hear. Um, yeah, the, the different responses that people have and heat and altitude are still things that aren't. There's. The science behind them isn't concrete. It's just still so much figuring out what people respond to. Have you, especially in the Duro, did you find that you were altitude adapted then, with the work you were doing? Do you think you're way more altitude adapted now after a few more years under your belt? Where do you think you sit?

Yeah, I was definitely well acclimatized to the altitude. I noticed in the Duro does a few climbs where we got over 2500 meters. And I really noticed that I. People would often. It's a similar feeling to bunking. If you're not acclimatized to the altitude, you. It's, it's, it's bizarre. It's a bizarre feeling. You get lightheaded. Very, very, very similar to bunking. And I wouldn't get that. And I would often feel, yeah, quite fit. For example, when we're going out with Stelvio, there were guys, we. Obviously you climb from, I think it's 700 meters to 2800 meters, which is the longest climb I've ever done.

Yeah.

And yeah, between. As soon as you get over, as soon as you get over 2200 meters, a lot of guys really do feel it and like it's weird to see professional cyclists and some of the best climbers in the world, they can't even do 220 watts. They're just trying to get up to the top of the climb to have a hot tea. Yeah. But it's, it is interesting with so many professional cyclists living In Andorra, some cyclists will live up high like me, and some high cyclists will live down lower at a thousand meters because they just don't respond well to the altitude. It's just not a stimulus that they react well to. So whilst yeah, some athletes might see it as like an absolute game changer, some athletes don't go anywhere near it. Um, so it is interesting to see just the different responses.

We could keep asking you questions about your training forever and we will get back to it. Cause we were very interested in what you're doing now. Um, but a key part of your story is kind of getting towards the end of your contract with ef. So you spent over three years with them. But, but in your final year you had two horrific crashes which put you out for a lot of the season and contract didn't get renewed. And that's the situation you find yourself in now, which is you're really putting yourself out there and training your ass off and putting your hand up to get a World Tour contract again. But can you talk us through that part of the story and what happened there? And do you place a lot of blame on the crashes not giving you the opportunity to train and race like you would, or how did that unfold?

Yeah, obviously it's a massive, it was a massive disappointment not to have my contract renewed at EF at the end of my three year contract. And yeah, the two crashes on my contract year certainly did not help. And when that happens, you have a pretty small results page on your contract year, which also means that it's difficult to negotiate a contract with another team. And then if other teams see that Vorters isn't. Yeah, isn't renewing my contract, then that's an auto, auto filtering process for them. That they're like, well, okay, we'll just, we'll just look at the, the 20 other Johnnies that are coming through instead. So that's just the reality of professional sport. If, if, for example, I was on a good contract at EF and my winning the Tour of Flanders, maybe I've said this before on a podcast and in a video, that maybe he had very high expectations of me and maybe I didn't read much of those expectations. And so as a result, as a product I didn't get, he didn't get the money's worth out of me. So as a result he just moves on. So I understand this and yeah, it's a savage industry to be a part of. It's a hard job to get, a hard job to keep and as I'm learning now, it's even harder job to get back. And yeah, now I'm in a situation where last year I was with Team Bridge Lane, where I was able to do a good Aussie summer, which basically I was hoping that I'd have. Yeah, a good Nationals, a good Santos Festival cycling, which was like the 200 and under last year, and hopefully I get my job back. And I really thought that I had done enough to maybe get that contract at a pro team, but I just fell short. And then I was in a similar situation again this year, the Nationals, hoping to win the Aussie jersey and resolve my employment issues and didn't quite work out. And I'm still. I've come back to Europe, I've been training and I'm just hoping that a spot opens up with teams I've spoken to. Yeah. So I think I've shown over the last year and a half that I'm actually getting physically stronger and the opportunity to chase goals as an athlete in the World Tour ranks is. Is still there. So I'm still super passionate about chasing that. And yeah, I still got the support and I've still got a bit of cash to. To see it out for another few months. And whether or not I'm a professional again in the pro ranks or maybe I'm coming back to Melbourne in a year, I'm not sure, but I know that I'm doing everything.

Well, let's just. Let's just take us through that and there's a lot to dig into there. So if you're at the moment living in Europe and in Andorra and training your ass off to be ready for whatever may come your way in the next week, the next month or the next six months, how mentally are you going about your daily routine? And this is incredible to us to hear this story that your motivation is that high, that no matter what's going to happen next, you are determined and doing everything in your power to enable yourself to be selected and be ready to go. So how are you. How are you managing your program based around. You don't really know what race you're going to train for, but you just want to be as fit as you possibly can. Take us through this mindset.

Yeah, it's. It's from the outside in. I. It's a really difficult situation mentally, obviously, I'm unemployed, waiting for a contract that might not never come, and I have to train like a professional with professional mentality, which takes a lot of energy physically and mentally. Yeah. And it's also like, it's also a lot of time by yourself too. So you have to get comfortable in your own space. You have to be really self inspired. Is that word? I don't know. Yeah, like the motivation has to come from within yourself, so and yeah, your self of belief has to be super high and it also just has to become natural. Obviously with all this contract stress and the disappointment, I guess from that side of things I thought maybe it could result in a negative relationship with the bike and as a result putting my leg over the bike in the morning would become difficult and then I wouldn't enjoy bike riding and if that was becoming the situation then I wouldn't be able to chase being a pro again because you just can't put back to, back to back 25, 30 hour weeks on the bike if, if you're in a bad headspace. So yeah, I've managed to keep things really simple to appreciate just the current life that I still have and the opportunities that could still be possible. Um, so yeah, I mean for example, I'm actually my own coach at the moment. I think my situation is quite complex and I have to really strip it back and just enjoy bike riding and enjoy riding where I am. I mean for example, a lot of people in Melbourne would have on their bucket list to come and ride in Andorra and come and ride in the Pyrenees and I'm just doing that day to day. So I have to like have that perspective on things that what I'm doing is, is not normal and it's actually an absolute privilege. Even though I'm unemployed and without a contract, it's still an absolute pleasure to ride my bike here and also still be a professional athlete and not have to go to the office. Is something that is, yeah, a privilege. Obviously I can't do it forever. Yeah, at times will change things. But yeah, as I said I was my own coach so I keep things really simple. So I just, if I, I've, I've stripped back a lot of the high intensity work and a lot of the structured work and just riding to cool places so I can ride to front remote from here I can ride with a few old teammates and yeah, just enjoy bike riding for what it is. Um, and I naturally, I naturally half wheel myself so I can just ride which is actually really important because it ends up that means that I'm not doing junk and it means that I'm naturally just tapping into zone 2 work at altitude which is the main stimulus anyway. But yeah, I mean my situation is quite unique. And I think I look at the. The professional peloton and everyone that was in my situation in November last year without a contract, there's not actually another rider that's doing what I'm doing. Um, everyone else has moved on, I guess. Um, but I. I just look at the. And maybe that's a reflection of me coming in so late to the sport that I still have a lot of untapped motivation. Um, it would be a completely different story if I had been riding a bike Since I was 12 and I wanted to do something different to what I've been doing for the last 15 years. But, yeah, to be honest, I've. Yeah, I've had to ask. I've had to. As. As Lockie Morton was saying in. In the podcast that you guys did with him a few weeks ago, I really had to ask why I was doing this, because there's a few hard questions that you have to ask. Is it. Is it like an identity thing? Am I doing this because it's what defines myself, and it's kind of my thing, like, I don't want to do anything else. And if it is an identity thing, that's not why you should be doing it. And so I've answered that one. Are you doing it because you wanted to be a paid athlete? Again? If it. If that's your sole reason, then I think you couldn't put myself in the current situation and have that being the driving force. I really just enjoy, yeah, being a professional cyclist and also being a professional athlete and then living where I am, it really motivates me to get up in the morning, and it's what fuels the fire.

So that's a great answer. And I just love your attitude. And, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but with an attitude like that and a mental toughness that you've got, you will prevail. You have determination, you have consistency on your side, and you have obvious talent because they wouldn't have picked you up in the first place. So they're the things that are in your pocket, in your side of the court that someone will hopefully see very soon. But we really admire and think it's unbelievable what you're doing and the way you're talking as if it's. It's not a given. You're so grateful for it, which is one of the things that we're all about in our podcast, is being grateful for everything that we have the opportunity to do. And so it's a real refreshing thing. To hear from a person in your situation who could absolutely be bitter and twisted about the whole situation. You said you had crashes and you couldn't perform, but you also had a whole year of COVID where you couldn't perform and no one could perform. So you've had a three year contract where pretty much you only were able to ride in that first year. So I think the unfinished business that you're talking about is, you know, you really feel like you're still at the start of your career and, and looking at guys who are in their early 30s, like Michael Matthews, who's, you know, 33, you've still got seven years of unbelievable, exciting bike riding ahead of you if it works out that way. So it's a really great way of hearing that question answered. And yeah, we really congratulate you. And you know, things will change for you if you just keep that determination and consistency. Things will turn around and no matter if it takes six months or six weeks, something will happen, I'm sure of it. So that leads me to the next question, is what are the things you can do to enable you to get yourself in front of the right people?

For example, every writer is represented by an agent. So these agents, the middle person between the athlete and the managers for negotiating contracts. So these guys are really important to provide contacts and to start conversations with managers, with directors, even with within, with riders within World Tour teams. So, yeah, like, one thing I've learned about the professional cycling space is that, yeah, it's like this process of getting recruited is really informal and all you need to do is just reach out to people and start conversations. People, people who are aware of my situation and they, and they, if they are aware, they understand the story and they respect my, yeah, my commitment to the sport and they do give a chance to hear me out. But it is a really difficult situation to resolve because it's obviously the season's voluntarily underway and to add a rider onto a roster is logistically difficult financially, not part of their budget. And they would also have to give me a chance as opposed to giving a rider from their under 23 team a chance, which is their priority, because that's the whole sponsorship model of the team. So, yeah, as I said, communicating is key. So just giving updates to World Tour managers and pro Tour managers of my situation, of my training, talking to the coaches within the team. So from the numbers perspective, I've spoken to about 16 teams who have all had conversations with me over the last year and a half. And these are big teams. They're World Tour teams, pro Tour teams. And my hopeful situation is that the conversations that I've kept ticking along, eventually maybe a lot of riders get sick or, yeah, they start running a triple race program and they actually don't have enough riders to start. And they do still have one or two spots available that they can open up.

Up.

So in, in the UCI has rules on different ranked teams having a maximum amount of riders. So in a World Tour, you can have 30 riders. In the pro tour, you can have 26. So the teams that don't have 26 or 30 riders, it means that they can all technically give me a chance. And the teams that have been interested and they said that they'll come back to me if a chance changes and they still have the spot available, then that's my opportunity to get my job back. If you crunch the numbers on it, it's unlikely, but crazier things have happened. So, yeah, it's one of the things.

We say on the podcast all the time is it's as cliche as it is, anything can happen. And you watch that many races throughout the year where just some of the most unlikely things happen, people that take chances get through. It's just awesome. So we're absolutely about that attitude. Does that mean mentally that while you would hope that something happens as soon as possible, something lucky like that, are you preparing for the fact that you might have to wait till November when contract talks happen again for everyone? Is that your goal to try and stick it out until then?

Yeah, it becomes a really, again difficult situation because contracts more or less by the Tour de France is starting to get it dialed in. And if I, if I haven't been able to find a contract by then, as someone that hasn't been racing, I. My chances of getting a contract gets less. I'm essentially out of the game for too long and that's that. So that's my time frame and, and I'm okay with that. And there's nothing I can do about that. So my chance to get a contract is over the next three or four months. And the only thing I need to do is again, communicate with the managers that have shown interest and just stay fit. That's the only noise that I need to deal with. Everything else is, is irrelevant.

So, yeah, how are you going to go with keeping your race fitness going? Is there some local stuff that you, in the meantime you can keep keep sort of turning up to, and, and, and getting some of that race? You know that in case something does happen, that you will Be ready to go. And also maybe someone sees that you've done a kom that's, you know, like for example, the Zwift riders who come out of. Out of Zwift and get a pro contact because they've done 7.5 watts per kilo. That actually is real and, and no one can ignore it. Is there something like that that you can put yourself in front of people.

And you just want to race a local race in Barcelona, right?

Yeah. I mean, there's still racing opportunity here in Catalonia, so it's pretty similar to the National Road Series. So in the National Road Series, an individual can enter, for example, and it's, it's the same here. So I actually did a race last weekend against 170 guys. There was 17 teams and it was 110k race just around near Barcelona and near a town called Sabade. And yeah, there's, there's actually development teams of World Tour teams there. So, yeah, I beat some of their boys. I came third, actually.

Third, sorry. Yep.

I didn't, I didn't win it. I would have been a lot louder on social media if I had won it.

I saw the photo on social media. Yeah, yeah. On the podium.

I was wearing a 2016 Cannondale Javac skin suit.

Unreal.

And yeah, so there are racing opportunities that I can tap into every now and then because I also have to do that because I can't just do a three and a half month training block at altitude like you need to as an athlete. You need to feed the competition. Like. Yeah, like it's. I like to. Yeah, to go fast and to get that adrenaline of racing that I kind of trained for. Um, so that's something that I can do in the meantime. There's more or less one every fortnight, so. Yeah, and it only cost 12 Euro, which is ridiculous for closed roads and everything. So.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah.

Your answers are truly remarkable. Giving an insight into where you're at at the moment. And this is kind of so much to tap into mentally. I guess it must be equally frustrating to be so close to getting a contract, banging on the door and having these conversations, especially when, as you said, you probably ticked every box possible early 2022, coming second at the Nationals. I mean, winning would have been the only better thing you could do, but your performances over that summer were as good as you could have hoped. So while that's frustrating, it must give you hope for these last few months that you are right there and just need something to tip you over the edge.

Yeah, exactly. And it's really difficult to gauge how close I am to a contract because it really does just take one conversation within a team that I'm completely unaware of at a Tuesday meeting. And then all of a sudden they call me up and I could be racing that next week. And I'm on. I'm on whereabouts, which is like the Anti Doping Program. And so I'm actually. All they need to do is to give me a kit and a bike and I'm ready to go. So I've even paid for my international UCI license. I've got all the insurance ready to be paid. So I've really got all. Everything that I need to do, and the only thing I need to do is get that. Get that damn phone call. Yeah.

Now, Now, Simon Clark was in a similar position a year ago.

Yeah.

And have you had an opportunity to reach out to him and have a discussion? Do you know him well?

Yeah, I do. I know him really well. Obviously, he's a former teammate and he also lives here in Andorra. And now, obviously, we have another similarity in being out of a job for a small period of time. And, yeah, after the Nationals and as I was traveling to Europe, I actually sent Simon a message just asking for him to, like, criticize my current situation, just to see if I'm doing the right things. Simon is more than happy to provide some pretty blunt reviews, and. Which is awesome. That's what you need. Like, in my situation, everyone says, like, is positive, positively supporting me, but no one's actually looking at me critically and saying, you should actually be doing this. And Simon provided an answer on things and gave me a bit of insight as to what I should do in a few months and then a few months. But it was more or less a pretty. He said that my approach was the correct way of doing things. And it's just, you. You just have to come to Europe, be ready, stay feet, stay fit. And I mean, it's all very easy to say that. It's very complicated to do that. But, yeah, as. I mean, Simon was without a job, and I was riding with him in the Dandy Nongs and in December, and he was talking about how he was going to have to finish his career, he was going to have to get rid of his place in Andorra and all these things. And, you know, six months, seven months later, he's winning a stage of the Tour de France. It's. It's one of the best. It's one of the best Australian sporting stories that isn't widely known, to be honest. Yeah, it's crazy.

We said the exact same thing when, after that stage, we posted about it. Just saying, that was one of the best Aussie wins you'll ever see. It was just the. The story and emotion behind it was incredible. And one of the things that's so clear in your answers is one, just a lack of ego. It takes a lot of guts to be super open about your position because as you've said, you know, you're unemployed. You've only got a few months that you can make this work. You have to be really open about it, which is really fucking tough. Like, you have to be putting yourself on podcasts like this to try and get your name out there. And you're not saying, woe is me. You're not complaining. You're not putting in blame on EF about not getting a contract. You just said that's. That's the way the game goes. You are getting a lot of support from back home. You know, there are media sites doing articles about you, really talking you up. I know you've got a lot of support from other riders. You are looking for some criticism, for example, like you just said, from Simon Clark about where to improve. How are you balancing that mentally, knowing that you've got a lot of support behind you, but knowing that, you know, the situation isn't changing. Waking up every day, forcing yourself to still train, how are you balancing all that?

Yeah, it's a really challenging situation, but the way I look at it is if I want to find a solution to being a professional cyclist again, that this is what I have, this is the wave that I have to ride for a bit. And the stress of this situation is something that I have to put up with in order to get my job back. And if I can't get my job back, I know that I'll be a better person for it. And whatever I end up doing later in life, beyond cycling or whether I'm an athlete again in. In another space, I don't know. But I know that whatever I end up doing after this, or if I end up keep doing this, that I will be, yeah, way better off for it in so many regards. So, yeah, to almost be in this situation is actually a non issue because I know that I'm going to benefit regardless as to whether I find a solution or not.

What a great attitude. And a lot of people can take a lot of lessons from what you're saying. And we don't appreciate what we've got until we've Lost it. And you can say that about so many situations. If someone's injured, they just realize how passionate they are about the sport that they love doing, Whether it's playing soccer or football or tennis or riding your bike, the minute it's taken away from you, you suddenly realize how much it means to you. And. And I hear that loud and clear. You definitely have a passion and love for your chosen sport. Tell us about that and how. How that's keeping you going.

Yeah, I mean, obviously, this job kind of fell onto my lap initially. Like, it just. It just happened. And then all of a sudden, I was living in Europe and I didn't have the appreciation for what I had. I didn't truly understand. Yeah. The situation I was in, and I think actually with COVID and with the financial stresses on the sport and even within the team, that I realized that this opportunity is very fragile. And it's. Yeah, it's a situation that won't last forever, so you have to appreciate when you have it. Yeah. So. So what was the main crux of the question?

Yeah, it's really, how are you coping with the fact that it could be the end? And yet you're so appreciative of the opportunities you've already had. And the message to people is, just understand how lucky you are for the position you're in because it can be taken away from you at any given time.

Yeah. I mean. Yeah, as you said, like, at the end of my EF contract, when it wasn't renewed. Yeah. Obviously, when it's taken away from you, you really appreciate. Yeah. What you had. I guess. And.

Yeah.

I mean, that's when you just have to ask, when it's taken away from you, do you still want to do it? And is it your passion? And. And it is my passion, and I think it makes me a better person, too. It's what. Yeah. Gets me up in the morning. And I think I can inspire other people, too. And. Yeah, I'm lucky to have the support of a lot of people that enables me to. To keep chipping away and keep. Yeah. See if this. If. If this career can keep on ticking along.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that you are. We spoke about the Locky Morton podcast, but that was one of our favorite conversations we've ever had. And your ethos and your attitude about bike riding is so similar. And obviously you were telling us you've spent a bit of time with him, and he's a bit of an inspiration. He's an inspiration to a lot of people, and he's an inspiration to you, I'm sure. And is that, you know, you spoke before about being able to get up in the morning and put your leg over your bike. Is it that main love for the sport that enables you to keep doing that and. And to understand that, like you said, you're getting up and you're getting to ride around places people dream of. You're thinking similar to Locky in that way.

Yeah. I mean, Locky's podcast was. The one you did with Lucky a few weeks ago was quite incredible, actually. And, yeah, you guys really asked the right questions. And he's also someone that can express his thoughts incredibly well. Yeah. I think there's something about being a bike rider, the way you have so much time to yourself, and that's so much. So much time to think about your situation, to think about the possibilities, to think about what you could be doing differently or, like, could I be doing something different with my life that will give as much satisfaction? And that's where, like, he was saying that, like, he was reflecting a lot on. Yeah. Why he was a bike rider and. Yeah, Being up here in the mountains in Andorra, training by myself and really having a lot of time to myself, a lot of people might think, ah, that's like, in this situation, wouldn't you want to be around heaps of people and be busy and these things? But actually, you need to keep it simple and. Yeah. Have that time to think about. Yeah. What you want to be doing with your life when you get to Crossroads.

I can imagine that once you get your contract back, the racing will be easy compared to what you've been doing in the last period. And that will be an amazing experience in itself, I feel. What are your thoughts about that?

I have definitely thought about the fact of. Yeah. Getting back on the start line. Yeah. It would be, like, so satisfying my sense of appreciation and also my sense of, like, you know, how some athletes have, like, the. I don't know what it's called, like, the animal in them, like the dog. Like the. Just that.

That grit.

That grit. Um, yeah.

White line fever, almost.

Yeah, exactly. I think I would have it in buckets compared to what I had before. Um, and that would be. If I bring that across into some of the hardest bike racing in the world, then. Yeah.

The resilience you're building. The resilience you're building in your. Your personality and your character will. Will be an unbelievable advantage come racing. That's basically what I'm trying to say. The racing will not be any harder than the, you know, the, the roadblocks are being put in front of you right now. You're still analytically working your way around them, which is incredibly admirable. And then come racing. There'll be lots of challenges, but they won't be nearly as hard as what you're doing now. So I just really take my hat off to you and we're super impressed with your resilience and the way you're going about it. I'm the firm believer that you will prevail. I said that earlier. But the more you tell us, the more I'm just desperate that someone out there listening can just take a little bit of a. It's not even a risk, get you on board and see what happens. And I just can't wait for that moment.

I couldn't agree with dad's sentiments more. And I know that words of affirmation and us pumping you up doesn't mean much when you just want a contract. You know, everyone telling you how good a job you're doing, you just want a contract was the main thing. And we've really grilled you about at this situation at the moment, which is tough to talk about. Like I said, so gutsy of you to be sharing exactly what you're going through. So we want to talk about you as an actual rider and where you're at now. And the numbers that you're putting out now are unbelievable. Obviously the best thing you could do is race results, which you've tried to do in every situation possible, the local races, nationals this year. But let's talk about your actual ability as a rider right now and physiologically some of your power numbers that you were speaking about on video last week. Can you take us through? It's kind of some of the numbers you're hitting at the moment and are you trying to improve them? Is that your goal? Can you do 20 minute tests every so often to try and show teams that you're improving those numbers, improving those power numbers. What's your goal around them? But so sorry, two part question. Start with kind of going through your current ability and power numbers and then what you're trying to do with that.

Yeah, I mean if you look at my power data throughout the last, yeah, four years, my, my raw power. So like the power PBS is itself haven't actually gone up too much from when I was as a domestic rider. But my, I mean this is quite common within domestic riders versus World tour riders is that it's their resistance fatigue that is exceptional and that's what really is a different differential between. Yeah, for example, a Aussie amateur at a high level in the NRS versus a World Tour rider. So that's something that has really improved on my end is just my ability to produce, for example, 95% of my 20 minute power PV after 3500 kgs. So yeah, and this can be easily shown within trainingpeaks, which is the platform that I use anyway. And yeah, and yeah, World Tour teams see this and whenever a World Tour coach or a pro tour coach looks at my stuff, they, they are, they always give the tick of approval. And there was actually one, one team that said my numbers weren't good enough, but I perhaps showed that otherwise against them at the nationals and there was three riders of that team at nationals. So. Yeah, anyway, I won't get into that.

I like that you said that.

Yeah. But yeah, from a power perspective it's. Yeah, I mean, obviously I have good numbers and then it's obviously all relative to your weight too and I'm quite a light guy, so that's to my favor. And yeah. What was the second part of the question?

Are you aiming to improve that now? I mean you kind of answered it in saying that the goal is to show that, that resistance to fatigue. But what are you kind of aiming for now?

Yeah, so I mean now I just have to. Every now and then when I go down, train lower down at sea level, I'll do some power testing. Just to reiterate the fact that if a coach is still looking at my stuff, that I can very obviously show that, that I'm physically fit and that I'm doing the power numbers required for a bike race.

It's, it's kind of a ironic situation when you first got your contract, how raw you were and you probably didn't have that endurance ability to absorb such huge loads that, that now you're, you're. And also you didn't have the racecraft, the technical skills. They're all things you have now. You still have the same power or better power, raw power than you did when you first got the contract. You now are a way better skillful tactician. You actually can technically climb and descend as well as any World Tour rider. You've got all these things that should seemingly get you the contract you need yet, because it was that one event that turned everything. Is there something. And I know that the Australian road title was one of those events that you, that you were aiming to get that jersey for and probably would have been a bit of a game changer. For you? Is there something you could have that you can do in the future that's imminent that can get you an opportunity to show how good you are in a race situation? We know we've talked about the communication and the relationship building, which is unbelievably important. But is there one standout thing, and I know it's no good talking backwards about what happened in January. Your performance was outstanding. You're at the front of the race. You were possibly the best rider and the fittest rider there, but didn't quite get the finish that you wanted. Is. Yeah, take us through all that thought process and how is there anything you can do on the track that can. That put you in front of people again?

Yeah, I've been thinking about this, and it's. It's difficult to provide an answer to this. I mean. I mean, the only thing that I can do is, like, I don't have access to the big races because I'm not a contracted rider. And, yeah, I can do all the power testing and all the numbers that reiterate the power that I've already done, which is not the question here. So I think I just need to. If I get a chance to do these local Spanish races and try and win one of those. And that's. And that's about the only noise that I can create right now. Yeah, there's. I don't think there's a question as to whether I'm. I think if. Yeah. Within the world tour managers and pro tool managers, there's not a question as to whether I'm good enough. It's just whether the opportunity is there and if they're willing to give that to me or to someone else.

Is that so?

Yeah.

Does that make it easier mentally knowing that you are good enough and give you confidence, just waiting for the opportunity? It's frustrating, but at least you have the confidence that you're good enough.

It is frustrating because I'm kind of stuck in limbo in a way. In the Australian summer, I had that Australian nationals to chase. I had something tangible to work towards. And as you saw on the nationals, I was stupidly aggressive. I mean, in the. In the podcast with Lucas Hamilton, Lucas was talking about how he regrets being aggressive in the race. He must look at my bike race and think, Jimmy was so stupid that day, tactically, but I just had to show. Show my legs that day. And I knew I had amazing legs and I could have sat in that second group all day and then finished seventh, but no one would be talking about me. Cause I was never relevant in the bike race. Um, anyway, that's a different topic. But it is frustrating not to have. Yeah. Like a tangible race where I know that, you know, there'll be some pro teams at this race that I can do where I will beat their riders and a manager will be watching. Um, so from. It is, yeah, I am, as I said, stuck in limbo. But I just have to keep doing the controllables and then hoping that, yeah, a manager comes in contact again with. With at the right time and there is an opportunity there. And I mean if you crunch the numbers, it's unlikely, but there's actually nothing else I can do.

Do you want to ask one more question on, on the nationals? Dad and I were talking about it.

Yeah.

And whether. Yeah. I mean, I know you said you don't regret the way you raced and you rerated then that you want to show yourself at the front, but in hindsight, if you, you know, you are very strong, would you have tried to back yourself in and to think that if you had a stayed in the second group in the main bunch and the race came back together, you could have given yourself better than a top seven finish against some of the strongest guys, you know, in the country, in the world?

Yeah.

Was there anything you would have done differently thinking from that perspective?

Yeah, I mean, it's all hindsight, but.

But.

I knew on that day, like I was really fit and I'd done a lot of training, a lot of heat work, and I knew at that bike race that I could use a lot of bullets and still be at the front of the race for that final lap. And I could take all the chances during the race to be at the front of the race. And maybe that was one of the moves. Um, like there was a lot of discussion about the World Tour guys being super experienced and not showing their, their legs until the last few laps. And I think a lot of that is tactical now. But also they didn't have a choice. They were still early in the preseason preparations and they only had two bullets they could fire, whereas I had 10. So from that perspective, my race was quite different to this. If I had have known, if I had have known that Green Edge were gonna go so all in for Bling, I would have just stayed with Bling. I thought that they would maybe put a few more riders up the road or into moves as opposed to riding the front and bringing Bling to the front of the race. Um, and that's when I could run my chance of racing with those Guys that go out the road and then try and beat them. That was my chance. That was my theory anyway, and it didn't pan out like that. Um, and it would have been nice to be in that front Group of 5, 4 In the end, coming to the finish, but I just. Yeah, faded in through the uni on the last line.

Everything's hindsight.

Right.

Did you have another question on that, dad?

No, that explains it to me now, and I really like that answer. And I actually agree with you. I think what you did was the right tactical move because that could have paid off. In most bike races, that probably would have played off, except you had one team determined to make it the complete opposite, and they had the numbers. So I think your tactics were absolutely fantastic and spot on, and any other situation probably would have panned out in your favor. Yeah. So, look, we're super appreciative of your time. I don't know, Jordan, if you've got. I'm sorry to take so much of your time, you probably need to get out and train, but rest day today.

Rest day, exactly. Killing time is. It's all about inefficiency on a rest day when I'm not working still.

Yeah, true. I wanted to finish. One more question on the Nationals. I mean, you definitely made some noise in the Australian scene because everyone saw how that race unfolded. Did it result in any. Any kind of conversation that you saw from Worldwide, from other teams? Did you. Did your agent, Baden Cook, have any communication with anyone after the race or. Nothing direct.

Yeah, that was. It was looking really good at one point. Yeah, it was again, frustrating because I had six World Tour teams who were all in touch with Baden, and, yeah, they would have a look at my stuff. The coaches give the tick of approval, and then that would go to the management, and then the manager would make a decision. And then for whatever reason, whether it was a timing thing, whether they just weren't interested in the end, like, it only takes one person to say a firm no within the. The 5 of the management, and then that's that. So, yeah, there were. There were a few bites, and I was keeping my fingers crossed that I'd be getting on a flight. Yeah, after the. Yeah, after the Australian summer, that I would find myself a job. Um, and it just didn't form out the way I wanted it to, so.

So that probably shows that you rode the right way then, but the fact that you had so many conversations after that, that probably affirms how well you raced. Right.

Yeah. And the good thing about this year's nationals is that there were a lot of world class bike riders last year's nationals when I came second. The main criticism from and also from the Santos Festival of Cycling is that European managers would question the credibility of the race from just because there weren't that many world Tour guides there. Whereas this, this year there were almost all the Australian pros went back to the nationals. So yeah, they couldn't exactly.

It was one of those stacked races we've had in a while. Well, we'll finish off here. I did find what question I want to ask is again, we've kind of really hammered you about your situation right now and, and it's pretty good of you to talk so openly about all the struggles of it, which is really tough. Do you find it hard to talk about? Do you find it just something that you have to do because it wasn't something you signed up for as a professional athlete to have to, to also be good at fighting for your job. You just want to be able to get on the bike and train. How do you see this kind of situation we have now?

Yeah, as you were saying before, a lot of people wouldn't be so open about it because like a lot of people wouldn't share when they're unemployed, for example, you know. Yeah. So you just have to put your ego away and you have to understand that talking about your situation is going to create a bit of noise and people talking and it's a small world. And I think I'm able to communicate my feelings and my situation well enough that yeah, I don't sound like I'm singing a sob story. And also another thing that's important that like I think athletes are inspirational when they do good performances but they're also perhaps even more inspirational when hits the fan. And I think more to be honest, I think I'm. My story is better now than if I had a wonder stage, for example, like it obviously it's very different but yeah, I think a lot of people can take away from it and I'm not doing much else for anyone at the moment. I'm not really doing good for anyone at the moment. So if I can at least share my situation and provide some inspiration and that's something that's, that's good. And then obviously as I said, it'll create people talking about me and yeah, it's, it's, it's good.

So no, I, yeah, I just, I would just really appreciate it, mate. And we just wish you luck with. And we can't wait to see what happens next and, and there's going to be a good end to this story. I feel it. And I've had a lot of years under my belt to see things. And you just, you know, no one deserves anything in this world. But, you know, at the end of the day, if you keep putting yourself out there, you keep being consistent and you're, you know, you're showing vulnerability, you're showing that you, that you're, you know, a team member and you're willing to do whatever it takes to, to do. The passion that, that you want so much is to ride your bike and show, show the talents you have. I think you will prevail. So, yeah, I just want to, I just want to say congratulations, mate. And no matter what happens, you are an inspiration to a lot of people who are listening. And if we can be half as resilient as you are, we'll have some decent experiences in our life. So we really thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and we hope the story has a really good ending and look forward to following your journey. And if there's any way we can help, don't hesitate to yell out that because we're right behind you.

No, cheers. Yeah, thanks for providing conversation and yeah, cheers for being able to share, yeah, my situation with. On your platform, you guys do a really neat job of sharing insight into athletes lives on and off the field. So, yeah, cheers.

Really appreciate it. And I, yeah, I'll reiterate what dad said and for the listeners, I know that everyone will love it, love this podcast, love this episode specifically. But I will say, you know, off air, you were really congruent. And in saying that, it's not about you having a sob story or anything, you didn't say these words, but this is what we gathered from you directly, is that, yeah, you're not trying to shout a sob story or anything. This is the realistic situation of where you're at. We reached out to you and said we'd love you to tell your story. You're super open about it and so you never know who's listening. But if there's anyone listening that could help in any way, get this mana contract because this story is pretty epic and we really hope, but has a good ending. So once again, Jimmy, thank you very much for joining us. And to everyone listening, we hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening to another one and we'll see you on the next one.