Gold Medal Swim Techniques Triathletes Need To Implement

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. On this episode of the podcast, we had Brenton Ford from Effortless Swimming come back on. He's been on before and he was such a popular guest, we had to have him on again. We work closely with Brenton. We. We send all our athletes to him because we love his swimming coaching advice and analysis. And this episode was no different. It was jam packed with tips and golden nuggets on how you can improve your swimming. And we dived right into the Olympics, of course, because just like us, Brenton could not get enough of the swimming. He was glued to the TV for every event, exactly like us. So we looked at the best and worst parts of the Olympic swimmers, what triathletes can learn from them, and what you can learn in terms of how to improve your stroke from the top swimmers in the world. We also dived into a whole other range of topics like form, goggles, pacing, breathing rate, stroke rate, how to position your fingers in the water, little tips and tricks that you can use to improve your swimming. So we really hope you enjoyed this episode. We always like talking to Brenton and we are sure you will enjoy listening as well. For now, let's get into it. All right, Brenton Ford, welcome back to the podcast. It's great to have you on again.

Thanks for having me back.

Yeah, we'll dive straight into it because we're dead in the middle of the Olympics. The swimming is now finished. I'm sure you would have been glued to the TV for every second of the swimming. So start us off with what were your thoughts on the swimming as a whole? What stood out to you?

It was great to see the Australian athletes do so well, and I mean, it's really down to a handful of swimmers. I mean, as a team effort, I think it was great, but it really does come down to a couple of swimmers that pick up a lot of those medals. But that said, it sounds like it was a great team environment. And I know in the past, I think it was about two Olympic cycles ago, there were some issues there. There was a whole choir and all this sort of stuff, but it sounds like everyone got on really well and that only motivated people to do well. So that was, that was great to see. And just some of the swimming was, was incredible. And there was three World records broken over the course of the week. But it's really about racing because they were doing the finals at night, so the heats at night, the finals in the morning. And typically, you know, they do some a little bit slower in the morning for whatever reason. I think just the body's a little bit more prepared and to go fast later in the day. But yeah, some. Some really good racing. And some of the things that I noticed there, and you probably saw it in most of the races, was the backend speed was a real key to those that, that finished well. So there was quite a few swimmers that went out a little too hard in some of the races and they just weren't able to bring it home that last 50 or that last hundred. So more times than not, we saw that, um, those that brought home the gold or the silver were those that could finish the race really well in the last. The last 50.

A couple of good points I'd like to touch on that you've mentioned. And, and the one that stood out was the finals in the morning and heats in the evening. And, you know, from a coaching point of view, you would have wanted your athletes to practice that for the last four years, knowing that that's the schedule. Is that something that you think would have been important in preparation?

Yeah, I've got no doubt that the athletes would have been prepared for that. They would have done their harder, faster sets at a. Probably a similar time to what they'd be racing for the finals there. Um, so they certainly prepared with that. And I think even maybe it was a year ago, I think they. They might have had the Australian champs where they did it that way, where they sort of swapped it around. So it's. Because it is a sort of different thing. And I think even mentally for them, you know, it's not like you, if you make a final at. At night. Sorry, yeah. If you qualify for a final after the heats at night, you've got to go home and try and sleep and, you know, prepare yourself for that final the next morning where it's not often the case. So I think just in terms of athlete preparation and being prepared for that would have been a big. A big focus for the coaches and the athletes there. But, I mean, they've done that. I think they did it last Olympics as well because they wanted to make sure that the US got the finals at their night so they could watch it. So it's something that they've been used to for a little while now.

Another point you touched on there was pacing and the back end speed was key to the winners. We're big advocates of pacing on this podcast. We talk about it incessantly in that even at the top level people still get pacing wrong and they go out too hard and can't finish strong. And obviously it's great for the gold medal winners or the top three who can come home strong and get that back end speed. But we just noticed that swimmers who are coming fourth to eighth, for example, are going out with the winners and then dropping off. And the difference in splits can be, you know, three, four, five, maybe more seconds per 100. And obviously we can't discount the dive at the start of the race that, you know, for a hundred or two hundred the dive will add speed to that first split, that first 50 meter split. But what are your thoughts on pacing? And we really believe that athletes, if you don't have the same ability, should be going out slower and not trying to match them in that first fifty or a hundred.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. And obviously people are individuals, so everyone's different with it. But we really saw it in so many races where it was that last 50 that made the difference there. I think it was the 200 freestyle. There was a South Korean kid who's 18 years of age. I think he led the first hundred. He was right up there in the third 50 and then he came home and he just got swamped by them. I mean he's, he's a younger guy, not much experience on the international field. But it was, was those that could bring home the last 50 that, that won it. So yeah, I think it's so, so important. And the way to really, I think do it, it comes down to practice and then just doing it in training. I remember there's a swimmer, Trent Grimsey, he's got the fastest English Channel crossing time. He's a, an ex marathon swimmer from Australia. And I remember saying some of his sets and his sets were like big distance sets, but at the end of pretty much everyone it would be something like 8-50s fast on the minute. And the reason for that is for the 10k events that he was mostly doing, it really comes down to the last one K and being able to sprint, to be able to sprint home. And like the girls this morning they had the 10k open water race and it really just comes down to a sprint at the end cause they're all just sticking with each other and so you can finish fastest. So including some of that in the training is really important. And I mean with the triathlon it's obviously a bit different with the swim. You don't need to sprint home like that. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, whatever race you're training for, you want to prepare for that in training.

That's such a good point. As a triathlete, you want to do it the reverse, because they all sprint at the start, and you want to be kind of prepared for that, which is what the swimmers are doing. And they're all taking off flat out at the start. And look, it was so obvious to us that, you know, the. The graphics that the Channel 7 were putting up were showing us the difference between the first half and second half in those two hundreds and four hundreds. It was. It was really good to see. And I was telling Jordan that I froze the video and looked at seventh and eighth finishing. And, you know, they would. They were swimming a 102, 105 when the winners were swimming 101, 104, 103. And, you know, one of the swimmers swam 101, 107 to get a 208, you know, and it's just a horrible way in any sport to finish, you know, when you're just dying is, you know, what would you be saying to those guys? You know, and on that, how would you know what you are swimming when you don't see data coming back at you?

Yeah, that's a good question. It's. I think you do get a really good sense of it when you're training, especially for most of the pool swimmers. They've got a coach on deck giving them times so you can prepare. You sort of know roughly where you're at with it. And I think some of that actually comes down to how they. How they are feeling on the day as well. I mean, we saw some amazing swims at Olympic trials for the. For some of the Australian athletes. And a lot. A lot of the guys didn't. They weren't able to match their times from trials to the Olympics. And so sometimes it's a matter of that as well. Like, you can be feeling good for a competition. You've prepared well, you've tapered well, and you've really hit that taper. And that's often a really important part of it. And then just, you know, they had to back it up four or five weeks later, whatever it was. And there's travel involved, there's different food, there's different beds, all that sort of stuff. And so it can be hard to be able to get to that event and be able to just bring it home, even if they have got that fitness and they've trained for it. Sometimes you just kind of miss your taper. So I think that can be an element of it as well. And we saw that particularly with the freestyle middle distance swimmers. You know, Jack McLaughlin we saw it with. And then names escaped me. The two in the 400 swimmer. So he, he just did not, did not perform well there. So something would have probably gone wrong with his taper or might have been a little bit sick or something. So some of that certainly comes into it. But yeah, I think it just comes down to practicing that in training.

We love the fact that you have feel whether you're a swimmer, a rider or a runner. You get a feel and a sense of it feels comfortable at the start. But as a runner you can always check your watch and know that the pace you're running is 3 minute K pace. As a rider you can look down and see the power. As a swimmer you're totally going by feel. And if you're tapered well, you could actually be swimming too fast and still die at the end. So I know you're used to swimming lap after lap and getting an understanding of what the feel is compared to the time. How are they working this out? This is intriguing to me. How do they know that? Are they swimming off other swimmers? For example, let's take Titmous against Ledecky. She knows that Ledecky goes out fast. So would she swim a body length off her and trust that Ledecky's pace is typical of what she's going to do every race and that's risky in itself. Relying on someone else's pace to swim off. What are your thoughts on those kind of questions?

Yeah, I know with Titmouse. So she, in the 2019 world champs she did the exact same thing that she did at the Olympics in the 400 which was come over the top of the decky. She sat just off her for the first 300 and then brought it home the last hundred. So that's how she, she swims and she knows she's got better back end pace in that 400 than the deci does. And so I would imagine for her it's, it's really about making sure she's in the position to be able to, to bring it home. So that would be kind of at, at Ledecky's feet almost. You wouldn't want to lose, lose that. And one of the things that they train or that they, they teach a lot and they train a lot in, in swimming is that easy speed And I mean, you've kind of got similar things, I guess, in, in running and riding, but easy speed, they talk about that as you're going out fast, but you can kind of sit that 5% effort below where you're really going for it and it feels really comfortable. And then if you, if you find that sweet spot, you can bring it home the last, the last 50. So they talk a lot about that, that easy speed and going out with it. And, and I think there's, there's a lot of truth to, to that because you can go at it because sometimes you relax more when you're trying to just, you know, sit back that little bit more. And it can often be faster, even though it feels a lot easier. So it's about finding easy speed.

I think this brings us to the topic of form goggles. Now, I know you were resistant to review the form goggles for a while. I saw your video where you did review them and you gave them a big rap. And we give wrap as well. And we're not sponsored by them or anything yet. Hopefully we can get something like that for our athletes. Um, but you do, you do like them. And we were asking is, are they illegal in swimming competition or could, could Olympic swimmers start using them? And would you think that's a good idea for Olympic swimmers because they're so used to training or swimming to feel.

Yeah, I. So in there, I can't see them using them in the, in their races for a couple of reasons. One, because when you dive in, because they have a fit, like their profile is quite far off the face. And so when I've dived in with them, it's like they almost come off. So I think for that reason I wouldn't use them. I don't know if they're illegal or not. I don't actually know the rules on that. But in the open water as well, I don't think they'd use them in that 10k scenario because it's just about staying in the pack and then bringing it home. So pace wise, it's more just about, um, pacing off the group. Whereas in something like a triathlon where it's much more individual, I think they're better, better use there. And I think, like, they're allowed in a triathlon. Right. Is that so? And. Cause I remember when you came to clinic jard, you had the form goggles and had a look through them and I thought that's pretty cool. And yeah, and I tried my nose. Massive fan. I'm, yeah, very resistant to them at the start, but they're, they're unreal. And I think for people who are newer to the, to swimming and they're trying to figure out their pacing and get that right and develop some different gears, it is so good for that because you just, you don't need to be on your watch. You're not distracted with it. You're not having to look at the stop clock. It's just right there in your face. And I think it's, it's great for developing that ability of pace in the.

In the open water swimming and particularly in triathlons. BRENTON One of the things that I experienced myself was it gave me a relaxed feeling knowing that I could see the distance that I was 200 in or I was 450 meters in out of a 1500 meter swim or 1900 meter swim, I got to 1400. I only had 500 to go. That was information to me. That was gold. And I think a lot of triathletes would really like to know where they are in terms of distance. And obviously I had distance and pace in my view focus. And I could tell that the pace I was swimming was what I wanted and all I was doing was tracking the distance for the whole event. And it was an absolute game changer in confidence for me and made me relax knowing that, you know, I felt like, you know, I knew where I was in the event almost.

Yeah, that's interesting. I've never worn them open. I haven't worn them open water yet. I need to upgrade my watch to get that data. But it's, that's interesting to hear. It's really good because I mean the thing is when you're out in the open water, unless you know that one of the boys out in the water is at 800 meters or whatever, that's your only marker. And when you look at perhaps finish line or the shore sometimes that you think you're a lot closer than you really are. And yeah, and so if you know that you're three quarters of the way through you, you know, you can maybe start to pick it up a bit. So that's, that's interesting. I'm looking forward to trying them in the open water. Have you had athletes of yours use them and have similar experiences?

Yes, most definitely. And the beginner swimmers found it so much more confidence building that they knew exactly how far to go. That's the thing they were worried about how am I feeling and how far have I got to go to keep going. And it was really, it gave them a sense of calmness that they certainly understood where they were in terms of distance. But one of the other things you mentioned as an open water racer as compared to a triath triathlon, but they're, they're similar at the pointy end. I suppose when you're trying to swim with an elite pack, it is really helpful to still know that, you know, I'm really struggling to hold on to the pack, but I've only got 400 to go. You know, that's kind of thinking, oh, I can, I can hang on for another five minutes or, or, you know, I'm struggling, I've got 1200 to go. Is it is like I need to drop off, I need to, I need to conserve and, you know, and fight another day. They're, they're sort of examples of, of how valuable feedback you get with, with knowing the distance and the pace you're swimming at. And if you look at the pace you're swimming at and you've got 1200 to go and you're swimming seven seconds, you know, faster than your, than your pace straight away, you know that you'll have a horrible swim if you keep going at that pace. So all that information coming back at you is what I think swimming's missing. And I really want the swimming world to sort of embrace data a bit more and I think you would get better outcomes, better swim times with people not doing what we used to do on a bike and what we used to do as runners when we didn't have information coming back at us was going by feel and going out too hard the whole time and fading. And I just think the swimming has now got this opportunity and it would be great if they actually, you know, embraced it and encouraged it, I think.

Yeah, and I think that's. Well, it's, yeah, that's, it's never been done before. And thinking back, like, I would have never thought it's possible to have that stuff come up in your goggle as you're swimming. It's like, okay, yeah, right, as if that's going to be possible. But like, they do such a good job of it. The data is so accurate and you've now got that same data that you've got on the run, in the bike. And I think as, as triathletes as well, this, we're so used to checking that stuff and being able to, to train to it that now they can do it in the swim. It's. Yeah, it just fits right into what they're used to doing. Whereas looking at the 62nd clock and working out your time. And then when you're meant to leave, it's like, that's quite new. And it takes a fair bit of time to figure that out. So I think you're right. It's. It's a really, really interesting thing to happen and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens over the next couple of years as well as the technology improves. And they'll probably have some different versions of the goggles and they'll continue to make them even better. And I think they're awesome as they are right now.

Absolutely. It's a sign of amazing technology. When I had a similar reaction when they came out, I saw the first advertisement for them. I kind of just looked at it and went, yeah, right. I can see what they're showing in the video, but I don't believe it's going to work or I don't believe it's what it looks like. And then when they actually came and Paul, they worked perfectly. It was like, wow, that these are really good. But you made a good point before. One big disadvantage is that they have really specific watch requirements. So you need to look at what watch they're compatible with because even a lot of the standard Garmin triathlon watches aren't exactly compatible with them to seeing all the data that they can actually provide. So if you're going to buy them, make sure you look at that. I want to just go back to Ariana Titmus in the Olympics and I know this has been probably done to death and there's been a billion highlights of it on Channel 7, which I'm not complaining about because it is absolutely one of our greatest goals, gold medals, you know, Timothy, and I want to touch on your thoughts on her performance because you did a video after the Olympic trials really clearly saying how amazing Tipmus's swing form is and how you, you called it out to be better than Ledeckies and obviously that's been proven. And also you did a video recently on the. The coach Dean Boxhall's reaction, which everyone would have seen, that crazy reaction. It went viral. It was absolutely amazing. It was just embrace the Aussie spirit, I thought. But you put a bit of context to the behind the scenes of that video. And if you haven't seen it, I recommend going to Brenton's YouTube channel, effortless swimming on YouTube. You've put those videos up there and now spine tingling, to be honest, you put the kind of behind the scenes interviews with Ariana Titmous and her coach and Just the relationship they have and the work they put in to get to that moment just really gave me goosebumps. So once you actually watched all those things unfold, how did you find those moments.

Similar to yourself? It was spine tingling. And even thinking about it now, I'm like starting to start that same sort of feel. And it's because you just, you know how much work has gone into it. And in the videos, one of the videos we posted, it was from 12 months ago, I think it was maybe April last year. And it was just from one of the sessions. And it was Dean, her coach, firing her up to, to bring home this last hundred of their training session in preparation for coming home fast in the 400. And they would have done that so many times before. And so Dean Box, I don't personally know him. I've seen him on a lot of the videos and I know of him. And every coach who I've spoken to who knows him, they're like, I think he's an amazing coach, but they're like, he's crazy. He's out there and you can see it. Like he's just the different animals, like a Laurie Lawrence, completely different, but just, just amazing in terms of like firing up the athletes and getting them to buy into to his program. And you think like, how, how fun would that be to be a part of his program with the way that he coaches and how he talks to them and how he fires them up and he's funny, like in one of the videos, and I don't know if I put it in the one that we made, but when he knew that the athletes weren't giving their best in a session, he's. He's not saying like, you got, you're too slow. Get on with it. He's saying, you're being cute, Ariane, you're being cute. So he's got a different way to explain things and. Yeah, and so I think it's just amazing when all of that work comes together and it plays out. It's like a movie. And for her to actually bring it home and to see him just like he couldn't even look at the race at times. He'd like be watching and then he'd look down for like five seconds. Then he looked back up. He's like, oh, yeah, we're good. So, yeah, just it really added a lot of, I don't know, just, just seeing him. And one of the funny things too that I saw like on there's like a Facebook group of swim coaches and some of the American coaches, like, I'd say 95% of them are like, he's awesome. He's full of passion, and, like, just, he's an inspiration as a coach and she is as an athlete. There's some who are like, he made it about himself and all of that. It's like, he didn't ask to be filmed up there. Like, he went away from everyone else just so he could watch it and be in the moment and. Yeah, so you can't please everyone.

Yeah, absolutely. And that. That part was in the video you put up where he says, you're being cute. Ariane and I laughed at that moment in the video because she's just swam a rep, clearly almost as hard as she can, you know, and he says. He says, stop it. You're being cute. She actually rolls her eyes. And I thought that was a really good dynamic of the relationship, that he can just say that to her mid session and she is okay with it, you know, that's great. So, last thing on the Olympics. What do you think triathletes can learn watching Olympic swimmers like Arianna Titmus in her form?

Yeah, I think I was thinking about this today, actually, where, like, you look at a lot of the races were really closely contested. So, I mean, even in the 200, for example, so Titmouse got it. She just beat the swimmer from. I think it was Hong Kong, Singapore, and then Ledecky got third. So it was a really close, close race. And so it's not like Ariane's technique is the best of all the techniques out there. They're all valid. You know, all those that are within, like, a second or two of each other, they're all really valid techniques. So I think just go with the technique that suits you, that suits you best. And. And sometimes, yeah, I think Ledecky's kind of stroke is probably best for most of the triathletes, that sort of style. Um, because, I mean, she's a very. Even a very balanced swimmer, and she breathes every four and two. And look, you're probably going to struggle to do that in a. In a triathlon. So, yeah, I think it just, like, just go with what works best best for you and train for what you're. You're looking to do in terms of your most important race, whether it's an ironman or a half ironman, and. And train. Train the way you want to race.

Well, what are some of. I know it's hard to copy a pro swimmer because they're a pro for a Reason that's why they're so good. But what are some of the key aspects of Ledecky's form that you say triathlete should try and copy that? Because that's more inducive for a triathlete.

Yeah. So she's got. And actually saw who I think was maybe Siri Lindley put up a video. So she's. She's got Ali Salthouse over there at the moment, by looks of it. And I think she was comparing Ali's stroke to Ledecky's and saying it's fairly sort of similar. And so with Ledecky stroke, it's. Well, she breathes every two strokes. Yeah, you can breathe every three. Everyone's different with that. But she's got a little bit more of a sort of a bounce in the stroke, a little bit more of that loping, sort of freestyle. And it's usually somewhat better suited to open water, I think, and a little bit longer on one side, a little bit shorter on the other. So that uneven sort of stroke is absolutely fine. And we say that with a lot of the top pros is like one arm stroke over the top is a little bit, like a little bit more bent elbow, and then one's a little bit straighter. Typically, the breathing side is a little bit straighter over the top. And, yeah, so there's just some. That unevenness is okay. And listening to some of the commentating during the Olympics, so they had the swimming channel, which had two different commentators in the main channel, which was Thorpey and Liesel Jones. And some of the commentating, like, I just thought I wouldn't. I don't know if that's right, like. So one of the things, for example, was one of the competitors talking about swimming. And Alexander Popov used to talk about silent swimming. And the more quiet you can be when you're swimming, the more perfect your stroke is. Something along those lines. And I'm thinking, well, have you been listening to Katie Ledecky swim? Like, she's got this big slap of her elbow as she enters, and it's like. So if you're. If you listen to the Olympics and getting technique advice from that, you might be going down the wrong path with some of them. Not to say it's all wrong, but, yeah, there's a few things there. I went. I don't know about that. So, yeah, I just. I thought that was interesting.

Yeah, absolutely. And look, one of the reasons we want to get you on is to really get the best technical advice from. We think, you know, One of the best, you know, technical advisors going around the world at the moment, which is yourself. And it's really important that the everyday swimmer doesn't try to emulate the perfect stroke technique. And that would be the message that we want to get people to really hone in on. But, but, you know, learning to practice your particular weaknesses is going to make you a better swimmer. And they're the things that are more important at the end of the day. Which leads me to the next question is when you're doing your swim program. And obviously we're talking about triathletes or open water swimmers that we coach. You know, if you are, there's kind of, I suppose we categorize three types of swimmers. We've got the pointy end, the elite swimmers. We've got the ones who are, who are pretty adequate swimmers, mid packers, and then we've got the absolute beginners. And what's the breakdown in terms of time spent with technique? And we're not talking about running and bike riding here. We're talking a skill acquisition, which is what swimming is. And it has got a fitness component and it has got an incredible technical component that can make or break you as a swimmer. Using those three examples of elite mid packer and beginner, what percentage of time do you think they should be advocating to the technique side of it?

Yeah, it's a great question. I think with beginners, the. It's what? Yeah, it's a tough one. It's almost like you could almost go kind of 50, 50 in the very beginning because you can't. It's very difficult to improve your swimming if you're not doing enough laps. First of all, if you're just doing 400 meters and getting out, you're probably not going to improve that much. So you still need to be doing a bit of swimming just to get the body used to it. But then in the beginning it's all about getting comfortable and just learning how to be long in the water and relax and move through those positions that we want to be in. But then as you get on, and I mean what I've seen with a lot of your athletes and, and that sort of thing, like it's, it doesn't need to be a huge amount, but like, as you know, we love to use the warmup for, for the drills and the technical work to be done there because fitness is a very big component of it and swim strength and that sort of thing for those, those who are doing half ironman and ironman events. So yeah, I'D I'd say stick with most of that in your, in your warmup. And then at the elite end, it's probably even a little bit less, I don't know, a little bit less technique work. But again, it's just like a component of the warmup, because you've got a better feel for the water is the more experienced you are, you've typically got a better sense of when you're doing it wrong and right the sort of further up the pyramid you go. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of what I'd be looking at. But if you're a beginner, I think don't, don't worry about trying to just grind out too many laps straight away without learning the fundamentals of good techniques.

Even as you are a beginner, once you get into your intervals for the session, or your laps or your hundreds or your two hundreds, are you better off still slowing down and keeping your stroke accurate compared to trying to speed up and swim faster at the risk of poor stroke quality? And I know that they kind of go hand in hand. I guess if you've got better quality, you probably will end up swinging faster anyway. But what should the aim be there once you actually get into the main set of the session?

Yeah, I think it's, it's good to push, push to that point where you're breaking down and even go a little bit past it. And look, if you're doing a couple hundred meters where you're like, this is rubbish, you know, that's okay. But you don't want to do too much of that because you're going to train the wrong, the wrong things. And if you find that you strikes breaking down too quickly, it. You can break it down to smaller intervals. So that could be 50s, that could be hundreds. And I know, you know, like, from what I've seen in, like, Brett Sutton's workouts, for example, in a lot of them, like he's, he'll do like repeat 50s and repeat hundreds. So shorter intervals, shorter rest, but looking to keep the stroke rate, the stroke rate up fairly high. But it's that short rest that kind of allows you to just reset, get. Yeah, get the heart rate back down a little bit and go again. So I think that can be a pretty good approach for those that find that they're, they're struggling with the change in technique or, you know, they just find it breaking down too quickly.

So next question on technique and drills is there are so many technical aspects to the stroke, which I guess is what keeps Me in business because it's like every person there is. There is so much from the very point of entry to what your fingers are doing right through to the end of the stroke. There's. It seems like there's hundreds of things you could break down in between. So when each athlete is working on certain things at a time, and I know you have principles of maybe max three things at a time, so it's not to overwhelm everyone, how long do you work on those things before you pick a new thing to work on or a new set skill or part of component or a new three. Three parts of drills to work on?

Yeah, I'd say it's most of the time it ends up being with some of the more sort of basic stuff I think like that might be alignment like train tracks. So when you enter, it'd be in line with your shoulder, head position. I'll usually recommend they spend just a couple of weeks on that because those things can be somewhat easier things to change. Whereas something like the catch, that's going to take longer to develop. So in terms of changing habits, from what I've seen, it's usually about six weeks to eight weeks to really change that muscle memory. So I think it can take that long to do it. But for some of the more sort of basic stuff and simple stuff where as long as they're focused on it, they can change it, then we'll normally stick it to two or three weeks of practice on it. And we do like, sometimes people do revert back to those old habits and I do quite a bit of online analysis with people overseas. And sometimes we see those old things come in, but if we pick it up, if we see it and we go, they go, okay, I can change it. They usually back on top of it. So often it's just a matter of remembering to do it. And then you've got a natural tendency to want to go back to the old way because it's like a rubber band that's stretched. You want to stretch it, but it usually just wants to come back. So we've got to just keep stretching it more and more until it doesn't want to go back to its old shape.

It's a bit of a dilemma too, isn't it, when you, if you're, you know, as a triathlete, you could possibly be training for, you know, a 1500 or a 1900 or a 3.8 or a 500 meter, and there's very few of the of the races are 50s, hundreds, you know, two hundreds that you're in. So, you know, I really understand doing shorter training sessions with you know, 50s and hundreds and 25 so that you can hold form better, but you've still got to do something of that endurance. And that's where the fitness component comes in. And then you find that as you get tired, your stroke starts to go back to its old ways. So you still, I think you would agree, need some sort of endurance type work that combines with the short, sharp stuff in your program.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, yeah, it's really important. And I had a pro triathlete on Sam Laid Low. He's based, I think UK guy based in France. He, he's front pack of the swim with all of his races by the sounds of it. And he, he was just talking about every session. He only trains three times a week in the pool, but he was talking about every session. He wants his arms to fall off. Like, he just wants to like blow up to the point where he knows that he's had a good workout and so that I, yeah, I think that's, that can be pretty important is to do those longer swims where you feel like you just, your arms are shot. And he was saying every week I think he's doing a 3.8 K like for time. So he's basically doing my man swim every week. I don't know if he's still doing that, but I think he was talking about maybe last year for like months he would do that every single week. And so by the time he got to a race he's like this, yeah, I can do this. It's, it's easy. And so yeah, absolutely. Those longer distances are so important to do and if you find that your, your shoulders, your lats are just cooked after it, it's, it's a good thing because then you'll break it down, you'll build it back up and you'll come back stronger and better the next week.

I was just going to say we do find in runners who do lots of endurance running and strength work that they come and, and smash their 5K, 10Kpbs and, and guys who, on the bike who do lots of good 4, 5, 6 hour endurance rides can really ride a good, you know, 20 minute power test. And, and I can imagine, you know, as long as you fit in the water, the results will be the same. As a swimmer, as long as your techniques, you know, sound getting that endurance into your body so that you've got the fitness to hold your form right from the start to the finish. Is what, you know, example you gave of the pro triathlete is another example of exactly that happening.

Well, they say that, yeah, that's interesting. They say that like for, if you want to train for a 400 freestyle, you should train for an 800 freestyle and if you want to train for 200 freestyle, to train for a 400. So it's, it's that of just like upping the, upping the distance and, and what to expect and one of the interesting things that kind of happened at the Olympics. So there's a, an American guy, I think he's about 21, his name's Michael Andrew and he's, he only trains using this method called usrpt, which is ultra short race pace training. And it was developed by a guy, Brent Russell, who wrote this big paper on it. And it's very explicit about how you should, should train. So he's followed this method since he was, I don't know, maybe 14, 13, 14. And so it's basically, it's 20 fives and 50s at most. So there's essentially, there's no aerobic or endurance training. It's just all short and sharp, sharp training. Now he, he's an amazing swimmer. He made, I think it was five finals, was fourth in his individual, in some of his individual events. But he was on the four by one medley team and they broke the world record there. Now he's an amazing swim, but in the 200 medley he was about half a body length, almost the body length maybe ahead at the 150 meter mark after the breaststroke. And then he got swamped at the end and he went a 30, 30 second 50 freestyle for the last 50. Now that is slow for the last 50% of medley at the Olympic finals. Um, and I mean, and the sort of debate there is, you know, is does this training work or not? Well, it works cause he's still an amazing swimmer, but it seems as though for that 200 distance he maybe just doesn't have that endurance capacity to bring it home. Well. Cause he just died so bad. So it's, it just goes to what you're, what you're talking about.

It's completely the opposite of the backend swimming we saw from all the winners this year, isn't it? It's, yeah, that's complete opposite kind of theory and that's maybe why he didn't get a medal. We were talking to you off air about how it's tough to kind of be a swim coach in lockdown when the pools are closed. There's A lot of people in lockdown around Australia at the moment. How do you, what do you, what are your recommendations for people when the pools are closed? What do you get them to do? Especially swimmers that are trying to swim three, three or more times a week?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tough one, isn't it? So without access to a pool, I think the best thing you could probably do is just get some swim cords which, you know, you attach it to like a pole or something at your house and you can, you can use the swim cords there just for that upper body strength because there's not much else that can really match that. I don't think we were talking about this earlier. Like, surfing is great as cross training, but that's probably not an option for most people. So the swim cords are really good. And outside of that, I think that the main strength you want to maintain is core and gluten and hip strength is power through that midsection because swimming is, should be from the inside out, meaning the core and the hips. And then you can deliver that power to the extremities. So if you're strong through there, you'll probably find you come back a whole lot quicker to your times than you would if you weren't strong through there or if you don't have the stretch cords. I think pull ups and chin ups or even just hanging off a bar, just shoot. That kind of strength can be, can be very beneficial. So, yeah, there's a few things you can do there. Obviously nothing matches the pool, but that's probably the best that I think most people have got. And I mean, we saw it because obviously we were in lockdown a lot last year for almost three months. And it took about, from what I saw, it took about six weeks for most people to get back to where they were, which is actually not too bad. I mean, I remember as a kid, the longest I was out of the water was two weeks. And that was in our off season break. And then we'd come back when we felt like we'd forgotten how to swim. But I think as an adult you tend to be able to, I don't know, you just kind of tend to be able to get back there a little bit quicker. Cause you're not swimming eight times a week, you might have been swimming three or four. So it's not, it's not too bad.

Now, would you recommend the swim cords as something to do even while you can train in the pool, or is that kind of a last resort?

No, I Think it's, it's good for building strength. There's, there's a guy in the States who I've been working a bit with and before he started with me, he got on the, on the swim cords and he was working on his catch with them because you can really work on a catch outside the pool well with them. And, and this guy's, he went from like over 2 minute pace and he's, he's down to like 120 something per 100 yards pace. And I think like a massive, a massive part of that was the swim chords was developing his cats with that and his, his swim strength. Cause he's, he'd only been doing swimming for about 18 months from, from now and. Yeah, and I think they're, they're great to do and it doesn't take long, five, ten minutes before training. A couple times a week. You can set yourself up.

Well, I think, yeah, the obvious thing which we haven't mentioned is if you live in a state that's got a temperature in the open water or a lake that's warm enough for you to go into, that's the obvious. Outside of a pool swim if you're in. But you know, for some, some places lockdown is a 5k radius or 10k radius. So you might not have access to a lake that's close to you or an ocean. But yeah, they're certainly the obvious things. Put your wetsuit on and, and jump in the ocean. But a little bit nippy when it's, you know, 12 degrees in the ocean. But you know, they're the obvious choices, aren't they?

Yeah. As a Victorian, we don't often tend to think, we don't even think of them or whatever until about November.

Yeah, some, some rapid fire questions sort of to finish off the conversation. Just some quick things because a theme I hear a lot from you and you've said it even in today's podcast is, you know, do what suits you and there's no one exact right way. And even at the top level you see the example we before the top three swimmers all have slightly different styles and so it's finding what works for you. But I want to know, do you have any recommendations on these kind of certain topics I'm about to say as to what people should do. So for example, kickbait, do you have a recommendation for triathletes from sprint distance or up to Ironman on should be two, two kickbait or four and I wouldn't think six ever. But do you have a recommendation Yeah.

I, I think for a lot of, a lot of people a four bit kick can be faster there than a two beat for a lot of people. But it just takes a bit of practice to be able to get that. I think most people with a wetsuit on naturally gravitate to two beat. Um, and yeah, but I think a four bit can, can usually help. Yeah, can help people go a bit, a bit quicker. And it's. For those listening, it's like one kick on one stroke and then three on the other. So it's a bit unusual. Um, but I've found with a lot of the guys I've worked with that that's worked very well for them.

And then breathing another one, you know, probably every four was too much. But every second or third recommendation.

Yeah, every, every second or third is usually best for most people. I find that particularly the females who often have a faster cadence, sometimes they prefer a three because they've, they've got a faster case and if they breathe every two, they feel like they're breathing too much, they're hyperventilating. Um, so just, yeah, find what you can sustain. But most important thing is you get enough air in.

And then on that note, something I personally do is I'll breathe on every two most of the time and I'll breathe on one side and I'll change it up frequently. So I'll do all the left and all the right. But I noticed a lot of the pro swimmers seem to stick to the same side and that's, that's their style. Do you have a recommendation on it? Is either one of those better? Especially is it more of an age group and amateur triathlete?

Yeah, I think it's good to breathe the other side in the racing. A lot of them will usually if they're breathing every two, they'll just breathe to the one side only. But if you, if you were to watch me training that swap sides pretty, pretty regularly and in the 10K, for example, they're, you know, they're all definitely breathing to both sides because it's just, it's a lot of load on one arm and often your neck will get a bit sore too. So I think it's great to mix it up. I'm similar. I'll do 40% of my session to one side and about 60% to the other.

How often are you changing it up yourself?

Uh, just depends on what I'm, what I'm doing. So if I've got a set where we're sort of working hard, I'll try and either do like if in a 50 meter pool, like breathe left halfway down and then breathe right for the next. Or if I'm. Yeah, sometimes breathe every three. I'll just, I mix it up a bit depending on what I feel like.

Yeah, for sure. And last kind of unique one. Would you recommend triathletes ever change up the stroke they do in training? So incorporate any other. Yeah. Stroke to mix up in the training or is it just going to be a bit of a waste of time for the sake of variation and just, just stick to freestyle?

Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a hard one, isn't it? I mean, I think backstroke is good to do just to give the arms a bit of a rest and move them in the other direction. So I think backstroke's great for some recovery. Fly can be good for developing a bit of strength as well. So I find that can be useful. And if you are mixing up with the other strokes, sometimes you will find that you do develop a bit better feel for the water because you're, you're doing these different strokes. But I wouldn't say it's a requirement to swim fast as a triathlete. Uh, so it's each, each drone. If you like doing the other strokes then, then go for it. But if you want to do butterflies, start with fins. Cause it's a, it's a hard one to do with that if you need to it perfect.

And one of the last ones I wanted to ask is what is, what is the most common questions you've been asked recently that you're getting from most people in your membership or even at your clinics?

You've probably asked most of them actually, like breathing is a huge one. A lot of people always ask about like fingers together or apart. So that's a really common one. And the answer there is you don't want a really stiff and tight hand. A bit of a gap between the fingers is fine and just keep the hands somewhat relaxed. And you will have probably seen that if you saw any slow mo footage of the Olympians. It's like a lot of the times the fingers are somewhat apart because they're very relaxed. And yeah, the amount of force that they're applying on the water, it's hard to keep the fingers completely closed. So that's probably the most, most common one that I get.

The other one that I wanted to ask was the, the equipment in training and you know, being at your clinic, you, you had the snorkel and mask and flippers and Hand paddles, pool buoys. Yeah, tell us about that and how you see that fitting into a training session.

Yeah, I, we use fins a lot in warmup, so when I'm normally training, it's, it's in the morning, it's cold and I haven't had a chance to warm up basically or move. So when, whenever I'm training and I'm setting the sessions, we'll do about 600 meters of fins, just ease the shoulders into it. So I really like that for early mornings. I also like it for drills because a lot of the drills that we do are kick based and that way you don't need to worry if you can't kick. If you go backwards when you normally kick, things will just give you that little bit of propulsion. Snorkel is really good for taking the breathing out of it. So one of the, probably the most common thing that causes faults in the stroke is the breathing. Because people look too far, they'll look behind them and it will mean that their catch or their rotation is off a little bit. So I think a snorkel can be great for just allowing you to focus on what's happening in the water. And then in terms of the other gear, pool boy paddles, ankle strap, ankle band. I think that stuff can be great for building strength and practicing swimming. Almost like you've got a wetsuit on. So that stuff is great for triathletes. And with that, I think I've seen a couple of pool boys that have got really, really wide middle sections. And there's a type of pool boy called the Any Boy or any Bowie that's got a really narrow one and there's some other ones out there as well. But I think it's important to have a reasonably narrow midsection for the pool boy because if it's super wide and I've seen some of the. Is it hoob or hub hoop, they that's, it's like really wide there. And so the leg, your legs kind of stay out here and it doesn't allow you to switch the court. Like use your core, squeeze your glutes together a little bit. Doesn't allow you to do it because it's so wide. So if you've got something super wide, try something narrower and just see how you feel with it. So I've seen that a little bit recently, so I just wanted to bring it up and yeah, let people know that it might be a bit easier with the narrow one.

Perfect. Well, that's a great way to finish. As always, we appreciate you coming on and giving us tips. You're probably one of the most requested people to come on, I'd say, because everyone really wants to get better at swimming, and it seems to be a lot of triathletes, Achilles heel. Uh, one last question which doesn't have to be swimming related. We do like to ask our guests, just in terms of your own personal wisdom, is what's. What's the life lesson that you've learned in the last 12 months? It can be swimming related. Doesn't have to be that you'd like to pass on to others.

Oh, good one. Uh, I'd say that often when. Yeah, often. Often when things that the hardest or the most frustrating just around the corner is something a lot. Is something a lot better than what you might have expected before. And I'm thinking back to basically like lockdown last year and all of that. Like, I found it pretty tough from a coaching business perspective, personally. Like, it was challenging, but out of that, like, we ended up moving to the coast and then business took off once things opened up and everything. So. Yeah, but it's really hard at the time. So I'm just trying to ride with that whenever I encounter those. Those more challenging times and just push through it. And I think out the other side can come some pretty good things.

That's unreal. That's a great way to finish off. Is there anything else from you, dad?

No, I couldn't agree more. It's one of my favorite sayings is, you know, for every negative thing that happens to you, there is a positive. You've just got to find it. And sometimes it's like there's no positives here, but there is. And, you know, you've just got to, you know, search for it and be patient. And you couldn't have said any truer words, I think. And. And it's a great way to finish and for people to think and remember that, you know, if you keep putting the consistent work in, things will turn around, and before you know it, you're on the right track and heading in the right direction, and things are looking so much better than they were a minute ago, but you've got to put the work in. And one of the things that Titmus coach said, you know, it's okay to want to have goals, but you've got to actually do the. The sessions rather than talk about them. I thought that was a brilliant thing that he said, you know, don't talk about how you want to be good, you know, practice how you want to be Good. And, and I think that's important as well and so much more in swimming because it is one of the most more difficult sports to really train for. You know, you've got a lot of time with your head in the water and there's no conversation going on and you know, it is a tough sport and there are a lot of kilometers to be swam with. Not much communication and I really take my hat off to swimmers. It is one of the hardest things to train for. So I really appreciate you being back on our podcast and I know the listeners certainly really can't wait to hear your gold nuggets that you throw out, which is fantastic. And for all those who know you already and have been to your clinics, they're well worth going to. And you will improve by just concentrating on really important technical changes you can make into your stroke. And I've proven that after not swimming for 20 years and going to Britain's clinic and already I improve without getting any fitter. I improved 5, 6 seconds per 100 meters just by doing some stroke technique changes.

Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate the work that you guys do and I love working with the athletes that come to the clinic. So, yeah, thank you for everything that you guys do. I really appreciate it.

No worries. Brenton, again, thanks for coming on. If you want to find him, you can find him on any social media channel. Effortless Swimming. We highly recommend your YouTube channel, effortless swimming on there as well. We've got a ton of great videos and you can sign up to Brenton's free five day catch challenge. It's a really good one to help wipe off some time off your pace per hundred straight away. And obviously we send a lot of our athletes to get analyzed by you online, which is an option, or attend some of your clinics, which, depending on the state, are available right now. I'm sure you're hanging out for the lockdowns to end Brenton, for the other states to become available as well.

Absolutely.

That's great. Thanks, Brandon. We'll chat to you soon.