How To Break Through A 9 Year Plateau (with Olympian David McNeill)

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Today on the podcast we are very excited to bring another very special, unbelievably insightful guest. We had such a great chat to this person and we are continuously surprised by the quality chats that we get to have on this podcast. And again, this was no exception. Today on the podcast we have elite professional runner Dave McNeil. Dave McNeil is a professional runner from Melbourne, Australia. He is a dual Olympian competing in the 10,000 meters at both the London 2012 and Rio 2016 Olympics with a best place of 16th in the 10,000 meter final at Rio with a blistering time of 27:51. That's 27 minutes 51 seconds for 10,000 meters 10K. He holds a PB of 27,45 for the 10K and recently ran a PB and Olympic qualifier in the 5000 meters of 13:13. Again, a absolute blistering pace which he's hoping will get him a spot on the team. And it seems a little bit cruel that you can run the Olympic qualifier and not be guaranteed a spot. So he is sitting waiting to see if he will get picked, which he'll find out very soon. But regardless, we got to chat today, today and what a great chat it was.

Dad.

Yeah, it's something about runners that I just love talking to. They've got a really measured, down to earth, non ego type of approach to their sport and we could learn a lot from, from these. And look, listening to Steve Montaguetti a few months ago and Dave McNeil was no exception. And his modesty, the guys, you know, he's won the Zatopec twice, he's won Australian titles. You know, he's been a runner. I used to watch him as a, as a young schoolboy growing up at the local APS cross country events and the APS Track and Field Championships, which is quite a big thing in Victoria. And his career has been a long and successful one and it's really fantastic to see him, you know, potentially go to his third Olympics. It's a credit to his longevity, his consistency, his approach to it and the thought processes he has now, the freedom he has to run now as compared to the anxiety he says he has when he was a younger runner and to be doing a PB, you know, 10 years later from what he's done in 2010 is a testament to someone who's a real thinker about what he's doing. And some of the stuff he comes out with is just such good lessons that we can all take into our everyday sport, of course, but as well as into our lives, that you need a certain balance in what you're doing, and anything that's extreme is unsustainable, and he epitomizes that. And I just think it's one of the better conversations we've had for the people who are out there really trying to. You know, everybody's competitive and wanting to better themselves, and it's not going to happen every single session. It's not going to happen every single race. And you have to be at peace with yourself about that. And that comes across loud and clear with the way he goes about everything he does with his chosen sport, which is track and field.

As always, we couldn't get enough. We wanted to hold him on the podcast like we do with every guest. We just want to squeeze as much.

Information out of them as possible.

So we hope you enjoy this chat.

Without further ado, here is the episode with Dave McNeil.

All right, we've got Dave McNeil on the line. Dave, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Do you want to start by telling the listeners whereabouts in the world you are at the moment?

Well, I am not in Melbourne. I'm very fortunate to be on the other side of the world. I'm in St. Moritz, which is in Switzerland. It's a, I guess, relatively higher altitude location, pretty popular with skiers during the winter. And, yeah, I'm just in an apartment and on the balcony at the moment. So I. It would be rude not to show you the view that I've got at the moment. So.

It's unbelievable.

Absolutely spectacular.

Yeah, it's. It's pretty. We're pretty lucky. And actually, if you just. I'll try and get it around the corner, you can see the track. Track there as well. So, yeah, yeah, we did a big track session yesterday and a bit of a long run this morning. So, yeah, it's. Yeah, fantastic place to. To train, and I'm just undescribably picturesque.

Yeah, we'll get into why you're there in a little bit, and we've got some questions about some pretty epic results you've had recently and probably why you're in Europe at the moment. But we always like to ask our guests off the bat, what does their sport mean to them. So what does running Mean to you, Dave?

Yeah. Loaded question.

Start with a bang.

Look, probably for the last few years, I've, I've always described it as, you know, a pretty intimate part of my identity. You know, it obviously is something that I, I've been fortunate to do competitively, but I'd be doing, I'd be running even if I wasn't competing. And it's a pursuit, activity, hobby, whatever you want to call it that, you know, I, I get a lot of joy out of. I, I make sense of, out of a lot of things through running. And at the end of the day, I'm happy when I'm running, I'm happy after I've run. And so I always kind of describe it as, you know, something that brings out the best in me and it certainly contributes to, I guess, what I put out into the world, whether that's running competitively or working or doing podcasts with you guys.

It's interesting. We were fortunate enough to interview Steve Montaguetti not long ago and his answer was very similar. And it's that passion we hear in your voice about you would do this regardless of how successful you were at it. And that's a fair point to make, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And look, I try not to take for granted that, you know, I have opportunities to be in places like St. Moritz at the moment, which is, yeah, as I said, it's videos and pictures and words don't really do it justice. But there's, yeah, there's just something so very special about, you know, running through these mountains and along, along all these bodies of water and it's, yeah, as I said, indescribably beautiful. And I think, you know, we're here obviously to, to train and, and reap the benefits of some altitude. But yeah, as I said, I'd be, I'd be running if even if I wasn't doing it competitively, but if I wasn't doing it competitively, I might not get opportunities to be in places like this, which make it all the more special and joyous. So definitely fortunate to be able to still be doing this competitively into my, well, older years compared to everyone else that I'm here with at the moment. I've got 10 years on most of my training partners.

That's fantastic. And they're all probably looking to you for, for the, the calm, cool, older statesman, level headedness, I imagine.

Well, they may be looking. I'm not sure if they'll find it. I think you bet. You better look better off looking at someone like Stuart McSwain or Matt Ramsden there. Stewie is certainly a picture of just laid back, easygoing, enjoying it all. And you know, for me, I think it's been a bit of a journey to, to get, to get to this point where I'm, I, I recognize and I'm a bit better at, yeah, just kind of having figured out what works for me from a training and racing and headspace. Headspace perspective. And you know, it's even for me looking at people like Rambo and Stewie who, who, you know, the, the cream of the crop at the moment. They're, you know, Matt's, Matt's only 23, I think, and, and Stewie's just turned 26. So both pretty young, but yeah, wisdom beyond their years. And then that's, that's not even to mention, you know, stalwarts like Jen and Ryan Gregson and, and yeah, a lot of the other people we've got here. So I've got good, I've got good role models as much as, you know, maybe, maybe they look up to me as the, the older guy who's, who's been doing it for a while.

And do you feed off each other a bit with motivation and, and professionalism and the way you, you know, you would notice little things that, little interest, intricate intriosync things that they're doing each day. You know, preparation wise, getting up, food wise, stretching. All the 1 percenters. Do you sort of watch here, I should be doing that because he's doing that. Do you. You probably know these guys very well anyway.

But yeah, look, I mean, there's certainly a culture within the group that makes everything kind of self sustaining. You know, we obviously, you know, we're running together all the time and, and, and when you're in environments like this where, you know, there's, that's, that's what we're here for is to, to train and recover and all that. And we're doing it all together. It's, it just kind of comes naturally that you're. Yeah, you are, I guess, for lack of a better term, feeding off each other and, but yeah, look, as I said, that's, I think that's more a product of probably having spent a lot of time together, personalities having gelled together, you know, pretty well. And you know, the other thing is each week, I guess one of the main days of our week is a Tuesday when we're usually on the track or doing some sort of high quality session. And look, a lot of the times those sessions would be damn near impossible to do on your own. So I think that's one particular example which probably speaks to lots of other examples outside of that one session where you, you almost relying on each other. You know, it's, it's in order. It's not a, it's not a matter of getting to these sessions and, and trying to be the best, best on ground. It's. It's getting these sessions and, and getting to the end of it and surviving it. And the only way you do that is actually working together and, and, and sharing the pace. And I think that's a, that's a really good example and it's been a good proofing ground for particularly in this group of how we work together and how, you know, outside of competition. There's no competition when we're in training. It's yeah, very, very much a team atmosphere and as I said, us surviving a lot of this training and you know, long time on the road. Long times on the road. Jumping from place to place. You know, we rely on each other just to kind of, yeah, provide a bit of that sort of camaraderie and honestly just some, just some light hearted banter to keep everything pretty light hearted and enjoyable.

Yeah. So I mean for those that don't know, you're all part of the COVID Melbourne Track Club which has a high reputation and from the outside, I mean it looks like you all are very close and a tight knit group and the competitiveness that you're talking about but also the teamwork has probably resulted in some amazing results over the last few years. But specifically 12 months and let's talk about, you know, the reason that you're all there in Switzerland and it's in preparation for Tokyo. You've got people who are already qualified and you yourself, we wanted to get to this main point, have just run an Olympic qualifier in the 5K a few weeks ago before heading to Europe. So firstly a massive congratulations on that.

Congratulations mate. That's an outstanding performance.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it was yeah, great thrill and.

Yeah, tell us about that race. So it was a race in Perth you did it with. Yeah. Matt Ramson. Talk. Talk us through the rats and, and the lead up and everything that resulted in that, that epic result.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll probably jump back and forth between a few things but yeah, probably, yeah, sort of early April made the, made the decision to start working on a plan to, to go and race in Europe and, and chase some times and yeah, have a, have a crack at Tokyo I guess. So that was kind of the starting point for me and was, was kind of deciding between going to the US or to Europe to try and chase some times. And you know, the other guys were already, already going to Europe and it just made sense to, to go over there with them and, and try and keep things as normal and consistent as they had been all year in Melbourne. And yeah, probably a couple of weeks before, you know, just booking tickets overseas, Matt and Nick kind of come up, came up with the idea of putting on a 5k in Perth before we left, which, which Matt had had some success with over the last 12 months. Put on a good 1500 at the start of the year where he ran the Olympic 1500 time and had done a couple of pretty, pretty handy time trials last year over 3k and 5k. So it had proved itself as a, as a good, a good venue, you know, reliable and set up with pacemakers and so forth. And then yeah, the ice on the cake was Stewie, Stewie put up his hand and said he'd pace us, which, you know, you can't get. You, you will get very few races ever in the world where you'll get a toll on 4k, let alone 1 or 2k. So, so, so that was exciting. And so I guess going into it, we, we'd all kind of raced a lot during the Australian summer and I just, I'd had, you know, I was really proud of kind of everything I'd done that season, race wise time, times. I'd run some, you know, a good, a good 3K but arguably hadn't, you know, competed really well at some other races and kind of finished a bit further back. But having said that, I'd been really proud of how I'd run it and run a lot of those races and, and just trying to kind of find a layer of aggressiveness and really working on, I guess, yeah, being a little bit more present and, and calm and collected, going to these races and, and, and really backing myself. So I guess leading up to Perth, you know, I'd, for lack of a better term, I'd probably grown some balls I think, and, and, and, and was really giving myself a shot at some of these races and, and so going to Perth, you know, I knew I was training had been going well and I was in good shape and, and, and you know, we, we were there for one purpose which was at least to get someone across the line in an Olympic time. And you know, honestly on paper Matt was that Matt was a. Looking like he should, should do it pretty Comfortably. And so, yeah, we kind of arranged that, you know, Stuart Stu would do the pace and he'd take us through probably pretty close to eight minutes, and then we'd try and pick it up a little bit from there. And, you know, for me going into it, I was hoping I'd finish somewhere around about my PB. If I finished under 1320, I would have counted that as a really good result and would have taken that with some confidence going. Going over to Europe. But, yeah, felt. Felt really good through. Through 3K. You know, I talked a little bit about the months leading up and the races leading up, having very specifically worked on. On, I guess, my mental approach to. To getting to the start line, but also just how I, How I attacked the race and where my mind was at the race. So, you know, when I was at, I think all of the races leading up to Perth, I'd. I'd kind of had. I'd find myself in situations where I'd have to. I was at the front and pushing the pace and, and really having to be quite aggressive. And this was an opportunity where I didn't actually have to do that. I could just sit in and, and, and, and stay calm and collected and enjoy the ride and then just, you know, when it gets tough after 3K, which it usually does, just try and fight on and. Yeah, look, fortunately, felt really good at 3k.

What was just 3k split.

Dave, we're right, right, right on. Eight minutes. Yep.

Okay.

Yep.

And you just run 7:46, hadn't you?

Yeah, previously. Yeah, probably. Yeah, about. About a month. Month and a bit before. So I remember after that, after doing that 3K, I was like, man, you know, I should be out. I should be able to get through 3k over 5k in 8 minutes and feel super comfortable. And, and sure enough, I did, which was good. And then, you know, probably another lap or two later, I started to notice that a bit of a gap was flowing between Matt and Stewie and I. I probably hesitated for, you know, 200 meters, but then just. I don't know. I just, you know, you just have to kind of go on your gut. And I, I kind of bridged that gap and, and got in behind Stewie and yeah, I was just feeling really good. And at this point, I wasn't really thinking about the time. I just. I knew I was feeling good. I knew I was having a good race and. But yeah, got to about a lap. Lap to go and realized I was kind of a sniff at the, at the qualifying time, so.

Which was 13. 12.

Yeah, 13. 13.5. Yeah. So. And I think I went through. I was about 12, 16 or something, I think, at the bell and, and yeah, so I, I kind of, I, I didn't take off like the clappers. I, I took off, I took off with a, A bit of measured restraint, but picked it up a little bit and then, you know, I just wanted to make sure I got to that home stretch and wasn't dying in the ass. And fortunately I did and, and yeah, crossed the line and it was, it was obviously very close, but yeah, managed to, managed to dip under. So, yeah, it was, it was definitely a bit of a shock because I was hoping, hoping that a PB was inside and that might have been, you know, 13, 16 or 17 or something. So. But to get the time, you know, right before it was actually going to Europe, which was kind of the purpose of the trip, I was like, wow, I mean, don't need to go overseas now. That, that, that thought lasted, lasted probably an hour or two and then, yeah, realized there was still a lot more work to do. So here I am.

What a great story that is. And, and you must have been pinching yourself to have Stuart McSwain, who's probably in the top 5, 5k runners, top 10, 5k runners in the world at the moment. He must be pinching yourself to have him having him.

Yeah, look, yeah, and look, I think, yeah, I, I guess, yeah, you have to look at the, that particular race with a bit of perspective and, and this is true all the time. And I've said, I've said this to a few different people and you know, my, my PB before that race was from 2012, so nine years ago. And look, there have been plenty of times in the last nine years where I've been in, you know, really good shape and, and, and certainly capable of running pbs. But, you know, the, the, the further into your career you get, and you know, the faster your PBS get, the, the gains become increasingly marginal. And often the difference between running a PB and not is not necessarily fitness. It's opportunity, it's timing, it's conditions, it's paces. And this was a case where all of those kind of stars aligned. We had good weather in Perth, you know, exceptional pacemaking. And also it was a, it was a reasonably small race, so didn't have the kind of the, the extra pressure of, you know, getting clipped and, and pushed and, and having to go around people and things like that. I mean, it. In, in many ways it was a glorified time Trial. And yeah, I'm not. I'm not afraid to admit that. And I know most. A lot of people will see it, see it as that, and that's okay. And. But it was. It was certainly very personal for me. I probably. I think in 2018, towards the end of 2018, I. I remember sitting down with Nick and this was, you know, six, nine months after the Commonwealth Games, and I'd had a pretty nasty injury there and had sat out for about six months of pretty much not running at all. And. And I decided then that all I really wanted to do for the rest of my career was try and get my PBS a little bit quicker. I wasn't too, too worried about if I made another team or went to another Olympics, but that's what I wanted to do. And so it had been a goal for a while to chase those pbs. I think, you know, stars certainly aligned on that day. Stars probably aligned with. With COVID and getting an extra year to. To basically have some uninterrupted training. And so I certainly benefited from basically a whole year of training last year and not having to worry about getting up for races and tapering and things like that. So it's probably all contributed to where the fitness has been this year and that result.

I do want to ask you about that, the COVID year in a second, but I don't want to move on from this. Pb, you've done without asking, what was your feeling in that first hour after the race, the next 24 to 48 hours? Yeah, really interested. How good did it feel?

Yeah, I mean, I crossed the line. And you never, you never quite know when you're that close because, yeah, the clock. The clock and, and when you actually cross the line and when it stops can always be a little bit off. And I crossed the line and I then didn't see the clock. So I kind of turned to the crowd who were on the track and asked, did I get it? And they said, yeah, yeah, you got it. And yeah, there was certainly an expletive that escaped my mouth. And yeah, I just kind of crumbled for a little bit because, yeah, one, one. It was very per. It was very personal. It was. Like I said, at that point, Tokyo was not really on my mind. The only thing on my mind was that, you know, I'd. I wanted to just kind of test my limits and, and push myself and, and. And see if I could, you know, run faster than I'd ever done. So to actually do that and certainly at this point in my career where, you know, you know, the, the, the longer you're running, I always say it's, it's probably something like 1 in 10 races where you actually step off the track and you, you know, you're really satisfied. A lot of the time it's, you know, you're not, not completely satisfied or, you know, it doesn't quite go your way. And so, so it was, it was pretty special. I crumpled on the ground and just had a, took a little moment for myself and yeah, then it was, yeah, just a lot of ecstasy for the next 24 hours. Not a lot of sleep and a lot of messages and phone calls and yeah, just sharing it, sharing it with, yeah, my, my little posse of close supporters.

And for those who don't know, Dave has been to two Olympics already. He's been to London and to Rio and you know, it's no guarantee that he's going to be selected for Tokyo, but he's putting, he's put his hand up, he's qualified for the time and, and that, that is a bit of a wait and see for selection, isn't it, Dave? And, and that's kind of a little bit nervous, I suppose, but what a, what a fantastic Palmares to be able to say that possibly you can go to three Olympics as a track runner, which there's not a lot of Australian runners. Is there anybody, Dave, who's, who's done three?

Yeah, three. Three. Certainly less common, but yeah, we've had it. You know, I've had a few that have done, you know, miners, I'm pretty sure did four. You know, Jeff Risley, who's from my era, he's on the verge of potentially going to a fourth one as well. So. But yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's pretty special and, and you know, certainly be a great honor. And I, yeah, it is, it's at this point it's certainly for me definitely the wait and see now. I won't be doing any more races before the, the qualifying window closes. Morgan McDonald and Matt Ramsden will have a pro, will both have another crack at a 5k. So. But yeah, I've, I did another 5k over the weekend which went, you know, mostly pretty well. I ran my second fastest time, so I've kind of, I've kind of at least shown that I'm, yeah, you know, reasonably consistent this year. I've had three, three, three of my fastest times ever in the last two or three months. So hopefully that counts for something. But yeah, that's at this point it's, it's out of my control. The only thing I can control now is staying healthy, keeping fit. And I guess I'm, at the moment, I'm just training for, for Tokyo, whether or not it happens because I think, you know, the decision, decision at this point, whether you go and race again and try and put something else on the board. For me at this point, I'd much rather focus on getting to Tokyo in a, in the shape and in a position to hopefully make a final and rather than just kind of keep chasing and hoping to impress selectors. So we'll just wait and see, see what happens.

I'd love, I'd love to hear your thoughts on. Because, you know, this is June and how many days is the Tokyo, you know, 5k race away?

Yeah, I looked it up yesterday. It's on a Tuesday. I think it's the first Tuesday of August. So, yeah, we're probably six or seven weeks away, I think.

What's your thoughts on your form and holding form and you're obviously, you've had how many weeks since that Perth event, was it?

Yeah, it was about. It's probably about five, probably five weeks ago, maybe yesterday. Five or six weeks ago. So, yeah, it's. I think probably one of the features of Melbourne Track Club training is that it throughout the year, you know, whether we're in summer or winter, we always. 90% of what we do doesn't change all year round. So I think that's, that's something that gives, gives me and gives the team a lot of confidence is that, you know, even though we've raced quite a lot this year, throughout that time we. I'm still doing two long runs a week. I'm still doing a threshold run every week. You know, track sessions change from week to week, but, you know, they're always pretty high volume. So we've kind of had all the ingredients there to, to kind of keep us going all year. And not to mention the fact that I had 12 months leading up to it of really just fortifying the body to, to be able to cope with a long season. But, you know, like, I'm, I'm feeling, feeling good and I, you know, I think like a lot of people was really relishing this little block that we're doing now in St Moritz just to focus on training and have a bit of an uninterrupted run now because it's. Yeah, my, my, my training diary kind of looks like a bit of a zigzag with up and down weeks which, which is Just a natural feature of when you're racing every couple of weeks.

So that'll take the pressure off you though, won't it? Knowing you don't have to actually race to qualify now and, and you can concentrate on your actual training program. It's almost like you've, you know, you had a little mini peak to get the qualifier.

Yeah.

Go back and train and then hopefully you can peak again when it counts in August. Is that the plan?

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I mean the other good thing is, is that, you know, whether we're right, whether I'm racing or not, or whether I get a long block of uninterrupted training or not, it really doesn't change. You know, I'm not training any harder now. I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm not putting in any extra miles now. I'm, I'm literally just doing what I've done all year. Um, you know, the only difference is, you know, if we've got a race on, you know, you might do it just a 30 minute jog the day before to kind of freshen up and, and then, you know, your race day is usually a few, few less Ks and then you might have a shorter on the day after. So just not having those sort of three or four day blocks where everything's a little bit down just, just allows you to kind of. Yeah. Top up the engine a little bit and. Yeah, so certainly some confidence to, to come from that. But also. Yeah, it's nice, nice to just take the, the, the, the, the mental pressure off for a little bit and, and, and just enjoy, enjoy training and enjoy, you know, run, running in some nice surrounds for a few weeks.

So that was gonna be my next question with regards to your training block. Throughout the COVID year, we had a pretty interesting kind of experiment with all our athletes who are mostly age groupers, so definitely not elite or professional. Um, but last year because of all the COVID lockdowns, we had a lot of our athletes improve dramatically because they had completely uninterrupted training for the first time in their age group careers because most people work or family gets in the way. But we had these athletes do six months of real winter training and come out absolutely firing. How did that kind of uninterrupted training period impact you and the team around you?

Yeah, I think that the impact is probably a few fold or at least twofold. I mean, there's the obvious one which is the, I mean, I always look at training as, as, as basically you're Gradually just kind of building layers of resilience to your body. So you know, you can, you can build layers of resilience either by you up your, your mileage, yeah you up your intensity, you know, you reduce your recoveries. You can do it a few different ways, but when it comes down to it, you basically just increasing your body's tolerance to, to cope with work. And so you know, having long uninterrupted periods of that, you know, really really allows the, the body to adapt and, and, and not have to necessarily go through these up and down cycles. So there's definitely the physical component to it. But I think also probably, I think invariably when whenever you have a goal or a race or something that you're working towards, there is invariably some mental anxiety that accompanies that more stock gets put on in did the session go well or not? Whereas last year really didn't matter whether the session went well or not. It really just mattered that you got the work done. So I think probably longer uninterrupted periods of kind of low pressure, you know, low anxiety, probably lower stress, probably I think probably helps your body physically and mentally recovering being able to absorb training. So I think it's probably, probably a combination of factors that led to that. You know, for me I, I'd finished a physio degree in 2019 and I'd kind of set aside the first half of the year to focus on, on Tokyo and was going to start work after that. And then covert hit and plans changed but jobs also dried up so I didn't have much choice for a few months and was kind of on the, on the sidelines looking for work. And um, so that kind of gave me an opportunity one to basically be a full time athlete for an extra year that I may not have, may not have gotten. Also gave me a lot of time to I guess more critically think about, you know, what works and what doesn't. And, and I think bigger picture just you know, what's, what's my purpose, what makes me happy? And at the end of the day I think that's, I know that's the most important ingredient in any success is you've got to enjoy it. Because if you're not enjoying it then that sort of stress and anxiety is higher. It's the motivation and the presence in your activity and being present in the activity isn't there. So having some time to kind of really critically think about that's been really good, been really good for me. And I think it's probably paid off. Paid Off a bit this year as well.

There's so much in those summaries you've given and would you say it'd be fair to say that that experience really has helped set up this year's results. And over the journey you've been a runner. As you said before, everything's built on layers and, and that was a really different year for everybody. And it's really quite amazing that after all these years and you've said yourself it took nine years to do a PB and it wasn't that Covid year that enabled that to happen, in your opinion?

Yeah, look, it was certainly a huge part of it. I've never stopped sort of running over the last few years, but between 2017 and 19 I had a lot going on. I was, I was studying full time, doing clinical placements full time, had a part time job on the side as well. So I just had, you know, I was kind of stretched pretty, pretty thin. And, and so going into 2020, you know, things were going reasonably well. But you know, if I look back on it, you know, I'd say maybe my chances at making Tokyo, if it had been in 2020, would probably have been a bit slimmer having not had, you know, perhaps that really good foundation beforehand. So I think that's probably paid off pretty well for me this year and I don't think I'm the only person that that's worked for. But yeah, some key words you used.

There, which I really love, were presence and enjoyment. And that is so key for our athletes because no, being non professionals, being able to enjoy it is the most important thing and having presence is really what allows that. It's kind of ironic that as a professional you're not really supposed to enjoy it because it's your profession, but being present and enjoying it more is probably going to help you perform better. Did you take that, those lessons into the races this year? Kind of what you learned from last year and your experience?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I look back on, I look back throughout my career which arguably has been pretty sporadic. You know, I've had, you know, I've had lots of successes but interspersed with, you know, lots of injuries and periods of running pretty ordinarily and I think for, yeah, for a long time, Certainly in the early 2010s, there was always an anxiety around, you know, what am I doing? Or should I be doing this, should I be doing that? And it just was kind of this negative feedback loop that I guess just, yeah, it's, it created a headspace which wasn't conducive to racing well, to training well. And I do firmly believe that in terms of your overall health and wellbeing and your injury resilience, it's, it's about so much more than just, you know, your, your running training volume. You know, your body, your body doesn't, doesn't recognize different currencies of workload. It just knows load is load, whether that's coming from running, whether that's coming from work, whether that's coming from some psychological pressures that are, that are in your life or, or anything really. And, and so I think, yeah, certainly for me, in the last, or probably the last two or three years, you know, the biggest, my biggest mission has been how do I, how do I make this enjoyable and sustainable? And, you know, for me personally, I need to have a bit of balance in my life. I need to have things other than running going on. And, and that's very personal for me. For other people, it's, it's very different. It's. Their best comes from when they're 100% completely immersed in just one activity. So I think that's a good point to make, is that there's no recipe for success for anyone. Some will be 100% all in and others will have more success having a little bit more balance in their life. But for me, having the balance then I think has in general just kind of reduced my anxiety, you know, around training and racing and just life in general. I'm certainly not perfect at it. I still, still something that I have to work really, really hard on. But, but yeah, certainly this year, just through a few different conversations and, and probably through some particularly difficult challenges at the start of, at the start of this year, I, you know, I, I just, I had no choice but to, you know, stop and slow down and, and just close my eyes and breathe and, and, and just put everything else aside that's going on inside, inside my head and just focus on my breath. And, and I think from that, you know, I started to take that a little bit more to my, to my running, you know, to, to work as.

Well.

You know, started, you know, six months into a relatively new career, you know, can, can be pretty stressful. But yeah, I think the point, point to be made here and, you know, whether it's running, whether it's triathlon, whether it's anything in your life, I think and, and what, what is it to be present? I mean, it's really just being in the moment. It's not, it's, it's quieting it's recognizing that your mind will, will think about things in the past, and it's recognizing that it will think about things in the future that, that will always happen, and then just taking a step back from that, letting those thoughts pass through, and then just coming back to where you are, you know, so when I'm on easy runs around places like this, it's. It's easy. You just, you immerse yourself in your surroundings. You know, when I'm racing, sometimes I'm immersed in, you know, what my, my race goal is and the pace that I need to be running. Sometimes I'm just immersed in the person, the person in front of me and the people around me and, and making sure that I stay there or move around as I need to. But yeah, not, not sabotaging your effort, whether that's on the track or at work or anywhere based on anxieties around things that have happened before or what might happen in the future, neither of which you have any control over. You can't change the past and you don't know what the future holds, so the only thing you can control is the present moment. And that's something I've certainly been working on a lot more this year. And as I said, I'm a relative newbie to, to, I guess that, that this way of thinking, I guess, and a lot of work to do on it, but it's. I've certainly found it helpful.

We're all imperfect, aren't we? And it's always a work in progress. I, I listened to another podcast that you went on and you talked about how you've employed a sports psychologist. I don't know how long that's been for, but is this a lot of stuff you've learned from him and is this something you've been practicing with him or a bit of a mix of yourself as well?

Yeah, it's. Yeah, so. Well, so Bert and I have known each other for about 12 years and yeah, look, initially I, I went and saw him professionally for actually some, some issues outside of running. And. But, you know, over the years, you know, we, we caught up, caught up periodically and yeah, certainly helped with some preparation and issues around anxieties with, with running, running and racing. And, you know, it was a, a huge part of my qualifying for my first Olympics. But over the years, we've, we've just become really good friends and, and this is one of the, another one of the, you know, great gifts of, of COVID was being locked down and, and, and Skype and Zoom and FaceTime calls becoming the norm. We just, we caught up one time early in, in lockdown last year and we, you know, we don't really, I guess we, there's probably not much difference between a, a friendly catch up and a professional catch up. We end up talking about a lot of the same stuff anyway, but we, we just kind of committed to doing that every fortnight and so, and we've kind of kept doing that all year and you know, Bert's one of my dearest friends and as I said, we catch up as friends these days. But what we talk about, you know, doesn't really change whether it's a professional or friendly call. And I like to think that I think we both get something out of spending some time with each other and absorbing each other's energy.

Well, you certainly, you know, looking if we looked from when you left school as a runner to, you know, from probably 2009, 10 to now. Yeah, yeah, you've definitely got a more resilient freedom about your running rather than what you had previously, I imagine, from what you're telling us. And the fact that you could actually run as fast now as you did 10 years ago and now doing PBS is almost a testament to that newfound freedom in your running and enjoyment and taking away the anxiety and the stresses that you put on yourself. Would that be something you think has made the difference? And it's never one thing, but you are running fantastic and, and you're doing PBS and I hear, when I hear you talk now, an absolute freedom in your perspective and everything that you're training and you're racing and you've just taken away the anxiety and I just love hearing what I'm listening to here. And it's no wonder that you're able to run now with that love and freedom that you probably lacked in the middle part of, of your career. Yeah, just talk us through that, that comment.

Yeah, that's a pretty pretty accurate statement. And yeah, it's a pretty, I guess it's a. Yeah, I've been doing this for a long time, so it's, yeah, it's certainly been an evolution in, you know, how I've approached things and less than lessons that I've learned along the way and, and how my thought process has changed. But yeah, look, at the end of the day I think probably condenses down to two really important lessons is probably one I think is that there's no magic formula to running well and getting fit. And we often attribute to the elites and professionals that they're doing all these 1 percenters. But it's always easy to comment on the 1 percenters, but it's the 99% that's the most important. And I think probably I've had at different times, different levels of anxiety around, I guess, yeah, what those 1 percenters are and, you know, what do I need to be doing to get the most out of myself, when in reality, like, the most important thing is, you know, getting a certain critical amount of running in the legs, you know, doing some training at that. Simulate what you're going to do in a race and the challenges that you're going to face in a race and, and do it at a level and an intensity in it, and that's, that's repeatable. And then you can, you can maintain week in, week out, month after month, year after year. And it's, you know, probably no coincidence that, yeah, the last 12, 18 months have probably had the, the most consistent run of training. I think, you know, as I've gotten older, one of the things probably last year that, that's probably helped a lot this year is, was having the confidence to say that, you know, I'm a bit older now and, and I probably don't recover as well as I did probably 10 years ago. So I don't run as many Ks as I used to. And I think it takes a certain amount of confidence to be able to go, I want to run faster, but I can't run as much as I used to. So I think, yeah, finding, finding that level of training that's repeatable, that's sustainable, and that you can just do week in, week out, that's probably the most important thing that has taken a long time to kind of get right, but probably is what's helped a lot this year. And then I think the other thing is.

You know, all of that.

It'S all good and well to find something that's physically sustainable and repeatable, but you have to enjoy it. And for me, I think the enjoyment and the reduction in kind of anxiety and things like that comes from having some balance. So I've quite enjoyed working, working during, you know, the last six months. Yeah, not, not to say that I'm not enjoying being at St. Moritz and having nothing to, to worry about other than training. But, you know, I, I, I've come to realize now that I can't do that all, all year long without, you know, just, yeah, whether, whether it's boredom or, or whether it's just accumulating anxiety about, or extra time to, to overthink things and overanalyze things. But I certainly found for me, having a little bit more balances has, has made that consistency in training more possible. And then I'm, I'm not afraid to. I'm not afraid to enjoy. Enjoy things outside of running. So, you know, I, I quite, I quite enjoy having a beer. You know, I probably during lockdown, probably drank more beer last year than, you know, I would have at any other point in my career. But lo and behold, I was still running all right and still getting fit. And I don't, I don't drink to, to excess. I, I usually only have one beer. But, you know, a few nights a week having a beer is, is, is okay. And you know, traditionally when you think of elite athletes and the 1 percenters and you think a lot of. About sacrifices that you make to, you know, to be, you know, ready for training and things like that, and I think there's. Yeah, it's always a bit of a balancing act making those sacrifices, but not at the expense of, you know, a sustainable level of enjoyment to, to kind of fuel, fuel yourself and, and fuel the mental energy that you need to, to actually do, do the training and mentally prepare for some of the races that we run.

Some unbelievably profound and grounded answers you've given over the last 20 minutes. It's really good switching. Of a lighter note, you've had a great career. You've been to two Olympics. You've been Australian champion multiple times across 5k and 10k. Can you tell us something? What stands out as one of your favorite moments of your career or a favorite race that doesn't have to be the best race you performed in? Maybe it's a favorite because of extra circumstances or you're just really proud of the effort you put in. What stands out as a career highlight?

Yeah, look, I mean, simple ones, like personal bests are always, always particularly special. And so I remember all of those. My two ZADAPEC wins were, were particularly memorable. The first, first one particularly just because it was kind of a bit, bit unexpected and it was early on in my senior career, I guess, and then that was my first sort of senior Australian title. So that was certainly memorable. But probably one that really stands out or probably two that stand out among all of them. First would have been my NCAA 5K outdoor title in, back in 2010. And that was, that was memorable one because it was at Hayward Field, which is kind of like the holy Grail of track and field in the world. And this was before they, they just built this Fancy new stadium. So it was kind of the, the traditional, traditional Hayward Field Stadium and you know, running in front of a packed crowd which included my mum and dad, which was, they've always been or they've been at a lot of almost, almost all of my sort of big international races. So it's always special when I've got family there. So that, that was one particularly memorable one and then the other one would have been the rio, Rio Olympic 10K, which, you know, apart from maybe a couple of small areas in the middle of the race, you always kind of think that the Olympics, they only come every four years and it's, it's one day and it's one evening and it's a half hour window where you spend, you know, your whole life trying to get everything perfect for that, that, that one moment which is bloody hard to do. But I, I felt like on that day I ran just about as well as I could have. You know, I probably, as I said, there's probably a portion early on in the race where I missed, missed a move which may have cost me a couple of positions, but you know, it was pretty close to, to running as, as best I could on the biggest stage. So I was particularly proud of that. And, and again, you know, for me, family's a huge, huge part of, you know, this, the whole running journey. So I had had my mum, dad, brother and sister, sister in law and my, my best friend Dan, Dan Carmody as well there. So it was, yeah, it was a, yeah, very memorable. So those, those two certainly stand out.

That's some great answers. Dad, did you want to touch on anything there? Because I had another question, but no.

Look, there must be thousands of races you've actually done Dave, over your journey and to pick out some of them. They're great stories and, and you know, that's one of the things I wanted to pick up on was, you know, every time you, you put a number on, you might not get the best outcome on the day. And, and how do you, how do you deal with that? Because, you know, you're a competitor, you want to win, you want to do your best every day, you want to train your best every day. How do you deal with that in your own mind that, you know, not every day is going to be a winning day.

You said before nine out of ten might not be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think you've already, you've already kind of answered that and that we, we inherently know that that's a possibility and I certainly do do now having you know, having had so many, you know, crappy races and races that haven't gone well. So I think, think knowing that beforehand certainly, certainly in the moment, I mean, you know, when I ran 1312 in, in Perth, you know, 10 days later, around 1354 and came next to last in the Gateshead Diamond League, so I was about as far from, you know, the, the joy and excitement I felt in Perth as you could possibly get.

I did watch that race.

Yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was not, it was a pretty horrible, horrible showing on my part and it.

Was a bad night. Poor conditions.

Yeah. And you know, it's, I felt pretty rotten afterwards and, and, and, and pretty despondent about it. And that's, that's not uncommon. But I think, I think knowing what this, how this sport is and, and that it is filled with ups and downs, you know, and having that perspective allows you to kind of move on pretty quickly. And you know, I, I, I certainly didn't invent this. You know, I'd heard it from other athletes, but in situations like that where you, where you have a bad ratio, you kind of give yourself the, you know, the hour or two afterwards and then, and then you just, you put a sand in a line in the sand and say, time to move on. And, and you know, that's, that's, that's kind of how I approach it is, you know, it's, you will, you will have races that don't go your way and it's totally fine to feel despondent and disappointed and pissed off and, and, and, but I think also it's important to be critical of yourself and, and listen, listen to you know, I, Nick, Nick's actually sitting, sitting across the room, so I should be careful what I say. But I always really, I've always appreciated, particularly from him, which I probably didn't have from other coaches, is, you know, good, honest feedback after performances like that. And you know, I seen some other athletes and I certainly recognized probably earlier on in my career as sometimes the, the most important things that you, you need to learn and, and listen to are the hardest. And you know, I can think of times where you know, the hard truths you probably, you shut yourself down and you're like, and you don't listen to them. And I've been particularly grateful for Nick, you know, giving me an honest kick up the butt when I've, when it's being called for. And I think that was probably a good example. There's been plenty of other times in the past as well. And I Think having the kind of putting the ego, being able to put the ego aside and just listen with an open heart pays huge dividends in the long run.

So, yeah, last couple of questions for you because we know you've got a hectic schedule over there. You've had your session this morning. You go to the, go to the gym and double up this afternoon. Dad and I are obsessed with finding out more about elite athletes programming because there's always slight variations that we're trying to learn from. And you mentioned before that you do two long runs a week as well as a threshold run on top of two high intensity days. So where do you fit those long runs in and the threshold around the high intensity days?

Yeah, so there's only, I guess the way you're describing, I only have one high intensity day, so. And then one threshold day, so two.

Dave, have you changed that you used to do two?

Yeah, so, yeah, so probably for me it probably changed early in 2018 where I started to do just two, two quality days a week. Some of the, some of MTC is still doing three, three a week. I, yeah, we just, just came to the realization that, you know, it just, it worked a bit better for me. I was probably not as resilient and, and as good at recovering as some of the other guys. And, and, and so, yeah, my, my schedule tends to revolve around a Tuesday, generally interval, interval sort of day. And, and you know, for most of this year it's a track day. And then, and then Friday is a steady 30 minute threshold run. So that's Tuesday and Friday. Wednesday I do a long run. Sunday I do a long run. They're both a bit shorter than, you know, what I used to, I used to run up to two hours for long runs. Now I'm generally only doing 90 to an hour 45. So this morning was 90 minutes. You know, I think first week back at altitude, we'll see how Sunday goes, but it may just be 90 minutes as well. And then everything else in between is yes, and our jogs. I, I will do a double run on my two session days. So Tuesday and Friday and every other day it's just a single run and then, yeah, a couple of, couple of days either in the gym or doing some core stability work.

That's great for us to know. Last question for the episode. And again, thanks for joining us and giving us your time. We like to ask our guests this question every time at the end, but what is a lesson that you've learned in the last 12 months that you'd like to pass on to other people.

Ooh, yeah, look. I think the one that's been most valuable and most meaningful and the one that's probably helped from a performance point of view is really putting in the practice and living in the present moment. Sounds really cliche. I hate saying it, but it's probably been the single biggest key to, you know, actually having some races this year that I've been proud of. You know, they've been. It hasn't been probably a lot of those in the. In the last sort of three, four years. And that's partly because I've just had other things, other priorities in life as well. But, yeah, certainly from a racing, running and racing perspective. But that was probably born out of some, as I said, some other challenges I had at the start of the year, which was dealing with the death of an uncle and my best friend and just a level of grief I hadn't experienced before and affected me in ways that hadn't really had to deal with before, but I guess kind of coping with that and, and managing with work and just managing outside of work and things like that, that, that kind of became the mantra and focusing on breathing and things like that. And. And then I eventually realized, oh, this might actually be useful in running as well. And. And. And yeah, it certainly, certainly has. So, um. Yeah, I actually recently I've just. Just last week finished a book called the Power of Now. It's an old book by Eckhart Tolle. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's a. It's a recurring theme, I think, in. Yeah, as I said, a lot of the conversations I have with. With my friend Bert. You know, it's. It's a recurring theme in a lot of books I'm reading. I've started reading this other one, which is. It's a bit heavy, but it's. It's about. It's about the Tao, which is the ancient Eastern. Eastern. I don't know if you call it a book or a philosophy selection of. Yeah, philosophy or whatever it is. But, you know, a lot of the messages from. From all these different things are the same, just a different flavor on them. And yeah, as I'm finding it's. It's not. Not a. Not a bad perspective to have.

Yeah, so sorry to hear about that grief you went through at the start of the year. And like, it shows the power of what you're saying. You know, you're not just saying these cliches for no reason. It really got you through those periods. That's what it sounds like and obviously helped your racing, which, you know, shows the power in some of these, what you could say, simple messages. But I've read that book as well, the Power of Now, and I think I can honestly remember how I used to look at the world before reading the book. And after that, it's almost like two different perspectives. And when you do understand and really practice presence, I really like that lesson that you've said.

Yeah, definitely. And, and yeah, look, it's, it's, it's not limited to running and triathlon and sports. It's, yeah, it's, I think, important in any, any aspect of life, any interaction you have with friends, you know, being with friends, listening to friends and yeah, just generally, generally is a good way to get the most out of any situation.

We always say, don't we? And I don't want to ask any more questions, but, you know, dealing with things in your life such as grief and you get perspective really quickly about what's important and what's not important. And do you think, looking back now, that it's important to really savor the good times, I suppose, and the good races and really be proud of those a bit more than. And, you know, we're always trying to be better and I could have done better today, even though I ran well, I could have done better. Do you think, do you think you get more perspective now that we've gone through a little bit of that in the last year in your actual life?

Yeah, absolutely, I think. Absolutely. It's important to savor the good races, the good experience, the joys, the highs, all of those things. Certainly, if for nothing else, as you attack each new, new challenge that you've got, the, the confidence to back yourself. You know, you've been here before, you've done this before, this and that, but yeah, you couldn't separate the value, I think, in, in the good races from the value that you get in, you know, the tough races. So, so I. And in many, in many ways, the tough races and the ones that don't go your way or the ones where you make mistakes are probably more valuable. And, you know, I'd be the first to admit that I make the same mistakes over and over and over again. So, you know, it's. It's. I think it's one thing, yes, you can learn from each mistake you make, but don't be too hard on yourself if you, if you screw it up again, because you almost certainly will. And, and it's. You really just find it. Life's just about fine tuning and, and, yeah, I guess trying to, trying to always be better, but, you know, accepting that sometimes it doesn't always go your way and, and that's. That's okay. And it's, it all contributes to that. Yeah, that amalgamation and, and fine tuning and, and, yeah, just general improvement in your approach and how you do.

That's a great way to finish. Thanks so much, Dave, for joining us on the podcast. We took you a bit long there. Our apologies. Your coach is sitting next to you, so we don't want to anger him anymore. Not that he'd be angry, but we don't want to.

That's all right.

Do that. But thank you so much again for joining us. Our listeners will absolutely love hearing your story. And if you do get picked for Tokyo, good luck. We will be backing you all the way, as will our listener. They'll all be looking out for you if you do get selected, so good luck with it all. And again, thanks for joining us.