How To Race An Ironman When There's No Swim

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Tribalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Episode 2 of Our Rookie Pro series debut year, we have Tom and Roland back on the podcast to chat about their first year as professional triathletes. And first episode was a big success. A lot of people love the insight into the journey and what that felt first race, how it all unfolded and everything that went into it. And we're back up with an update from the boys, so we're going to jump straight into it. It was Port Mac 70.3 a couple of weeks ago now, or almost a month ago now. And boys, the day got off to a pretty crazy start, which is happening more and more often in triathlon. You wake up race morning and the swim is canceled. And I'll throw it straight to you, Roland. For someone that's a pretty strong swimmer and you're hoping to get another crack at after your first race where you got kicked in the face and bamboozled in the swim, I think you're looking forward to having another crack. What were your thoughts when you first heard the swim was canceled?

Yeah, well, I wouldn't say I'm the strongest of swimmers and I think I'm decent enough that I can survive sometimes. But I was really looking forward to the swim, as you say, trying to make amends from, I guess, the previous experience. And so, I mean, understandably, it was a bit of a shock to, I think everyone that, you know, woke up on the race morning and as he said, that the swim was cancelled. So that was definitely something that both, you know, Tom and I had to, to deal with. And I'm sure Tom will give his insights as well about how he felt about the swim being canceled. But I think, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, you're always fairly disappointed when you find out that the race you've signed up to do is not now the race that you're actually doing. So that's always a big, big disappointment. But it, I guess it didn't really change the, the aspect of, you know, what we were there to do, which was to just go out and lay down the best possible performance across, you know, a swim, bike and run that we could. But now it's just a bike and a run. So it sort of almost just took one one of those factors away that you didn't have to worry about. So in one sense it was a little bit, I mean, annoying because we didn't have that, that aspect of the, the race that's always really exciting. But it's also probably the most nerve wracking part too. Just because it's so chaotic, things can go wrong very quickly. Yeah. So it was an interesting experience to say the least, to not have that swim.

Do you agree with the decision? Because, you know, there's an argument that, you know, even if the, the waters are quite rough, it's, you know, you're pro swimmers, you're not, not age groupers. And so there's an argument that it should only be caught off for the pros. It can be caught off for the age groupers. But for the pros, if it's, if it's really, really bad. What was your thoughts?

Yeah, well, I mean, I think under the circumstances it wasn't because of the actual like roughness of the water. Because it's in that port area, it's quite protected. I think it was due to the water quality is what they, they cited, which I mean, I entirely agree. Calling off of Sweden if it's not safe to do so for health and safety concerns and it's not meeting a criteria that's totally understand all the call for swim. I don't think anyone's gonna disagree with them doing that. You know, health and safety comes first. I think the, the point that, you know, probably annoys everybody is that the time frame in which they've called it off is maybe a little bit disrespectful even to, you know, some of the athletes have spent months, even years training for these events. They're well aware of what the conditions were like within the week and days leading up to the swim. You know, multiple people asked what, what the condition of the water is going to be like, is there any problem with that? And those sort of concerns were, you know, put to the wayside and then to send out an email, you know, midnight, but not before the race. I think it's a bit, I don't know, a bit disrespectful to the athletes that have invested so much time and money, you know, coming to this event that they're looking forward to just to do that. It's a bit, a bit strange then. I mean, Tom and I were, we were swimming. We went for a practice from the day before the race and would have loved to have not done that swim because the conditions were horrendous. It was raining and then we went this where the swim is. It's down in this boat ramp area and there's a fish gutting station, like right where you go into the water. And there were some other, like, three people there going for a practice swim who had just finished. The water looked very bleak and they're like, oh, just watch out for the. The dead fish bodies and stuff. And I think Tom and I thought they were both joking. And we went down to the the ramp where you go in and lo and behold, there is this massive fish carcass, like, and it's not some small fish, it looks like a shark almost. They're just like torn into this, you know, seal or something that was just sitting at the side of the shore and like, not sure if this is probably up to standard, but anyway, we got in, you got to practice swimming, but would have loved to have avoided that if we could have.

For sure.

Yeah.

So, Tom, be honest, be raw with your thoughts. What went through your mind when. When you. When you heard the swim was off?

Well, actually, Roland told me as we woke up that he just seen the email.

Who woke you up first this time, by the way? Who is.

Yeah, Roland actually woke me up, I reckon. I reckon Roland.

I think I was up. I was up before you. I had night shift again and so my skating rhythm was all out of whack and so I was up, I think, at 2am and I saw that. I saw the email quite early and then I was just like, oh, should I wake him up to tell him sooner rather than later? But no, let him, let him sleep.

For those people who are actually watching this and not listening to it in the car or on their bike when they're training, Roland is dressed in scrubs at the moment and he's just actually come off night shift. So really great deal of night shift right now, or.

Yeah, this is my second night, so first night was last night. I got another night, you know, a few more nights done. They've always seemed to deal me night shifts before.

Very generous, very generous.

Keep going.

Yeah, so Roland, Roland let me know and I. I fully didn't believe him. I thought he was just pulling my leg because, as Roland mentioned, it had been sort of explicitly questioned in the pro briefing the day before at quite a pertinent, sort of angled question. And there was sort of no suggestion of any possible reason or need for cancellation at that point, which we, I guess later found out was actually not indeed the case, which I guess was slightly frustrating for some of the professionals. I mean, not Roland myself, but others are there you know, putting food on the table with their races and results and, you know, it's their full livelihood. So sort of frustrating for that circumstance and not have been communicated as clearly as possible. But I guess, yeah, much to the disbelief of many people, I was, you know, equally disappointed, in all honesty, to not have the swim sort of rocked up at transition and people were asking me how much I'd paid the officials and the ToS for the water quality testing and stuff, given my, my swim pedigree. But, you know, I don't, I don't sign up to go race durathlons. I sort of sign I race of triathlons and it's obviously the area I need to practice the most. And the best way to practice that is in, you know, the proper race scenario with the mass start. All these things that are new to me and sort of the nature of the course was, you know, a bit different and interesting with tides and things as well. So I thought it was going to be a very important learning experience that swim. So, yeah, despite it playing into my hands somewhat though, it sort of excluded my, my weakness and played into my strengths. I still ultimately, yeah, would have loved to have a swim and done the full race. There's always a bit of an asterisk next to it when it's not. Not the full thing. But as Roland mentioned, you know, there was nothing we could do about it. It was the same position for everybody. And to be honest, we were both saying when we were eating brekkie, I reckon it was just more devastating for the, you know, the age groupers who trained for the full iron man or the half for that matter, but particularly the full, you know, people may have committed, as Roland said, years, months, you know, made a lot of sacrifices just to be able to get to the event and tick it off as a bucket list or even whether they'd done them previously and coming back from different things, all sorts of scenarios. But I think the disappointment to miss out on a full event for a full iron man, we hit a little bit harder than the 70.3 from my perspective anyway. But, yeah, mixed emotions, I guess, I guess.

Jody, it's interesting, isn't it, when you know that there is a possibility that the event might be not having the full three disciplines and, you know, the days before the water quality is not going to change that much from Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yet that call wasn't made. And I'm a bit disappointed as well that, you know, they were letting swimmers swim, athletes swimming in. They should have been, you Know, they should have closed the water if they thought it was that bad because you've got guys like yourself, you know, getting in the water, having a pre swim workout. And I just think that's also a little bit of an issue. And there's a few little things there that I'm, I'm not that pleased with when, when they're, you know, they're not taking into consideration they're going to happily cancel a swim on the Sunday, but they're letting people in the water on Saturday when the water quality is the same. It's not, it's not like it deteriorated overnight. It was, you know, it was, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, but it's probably was that way Thursday as well.

Yeah. And I totally agree with you, Jared. It is obviously tricky. I mean, you're managing thousands of people. It's a huge offense. And then I'm sure there's many logistical things that go over my head, you know, doing that sort of thing. And I totally understand. But as you say, the water quality wouldn't have changed in terms of, I guess, how bad it was. Maybe they were hoping that it would have cleared up on the Sunday and that the rain might have held off and that, so it might have been passable on a Sunday morning. But I don't know. I think, as you say, it's just maybe more transparency in saying that, look, the water quality is touch and go. This is the contingency that's in place. You know, if the. It's not good enough in the morning, this is what we're going to be doing rather than, as Tom said, the question was very blatantly asked, like, is there a contingency in place? And the response was, you know, very firm. No, like, isn't we are swimming? I would have said we're not swimming, but it's just like. Yeah. To then have that massive flip. It's just a bit. Yeah. Disappointing, as you said, I think, and.

That that brings on the, the next aspect, which now it, it's a, it's, it's a ballot to see when you start the bike ride. So for those who are not clear on what happens to the pro field and the rest of the field, obviously. And it's really crucial, isn't it? And guys, Tom, maybe you can explain how they work out and so you can. The listeners can understand what happens to the pros when they start their ride.

Yeah.

And even in that context, that decision wasn't actually made until, I don't know, Roland, maybe 30 or 40 minutes before the start time. Exactly. You know, we rocked up to transition in the morning. We knew the swim wasn't happening, but we didn't know whether there was going to be a run preceding the bike, whether we were going to be like a mass start and all run to our bikes, what the gap would be between, what the order would be. Those things were still yet to be communicated, probably until about 40 minutes before the start, I would say in that area anyway, quite, quite close. So I guess mentally we were just preparing to do whatever, whatever came our way and just deal with it as it came, which in some ways was, you know, sort of exciting. That was going to be something different and everyone just sort of had to recalibrate and jump straight into it and, you know, adapt to the scenario. Obviously you know, that's more stressful for some people than others, just different personalities and ways of going about things. But the way it ended up was you drew a in from the starting order that had previously been established. We drew a number out of a hat and that would therefore be our new starting number. And we would go off in 15 second intervals from a mount line in a time trial, essentially. So whoever drew out number one would go first and then 15 seconds later, whoever drawn out number two and so forth. And I think I'm pretty sure it was 15 seconds between athletes. So, yeah, definitely a unique way to start a triathlon. Felt like we were on beach road, Jared doing the beach road time trial and it seemed like Roland thought like that as well because he must have put some serious, serious power for the first 20 minutes, I think. But.

So tell us, tell us, Tom, where, where your ballot was and where was Roland in the field?

Yeah, so I was, I think I was number five. I was definitely the top. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was fifth. So there was a couple of strong guys, one and two, I think, up ahead. And then I can't remember exactly who was around me, but I knew Josh Amberger was just behind me. So I knew he'd be a pretty, pretty solid rider given his race right at the top level and everything. And yeah, so it was, it was sort of, you know, we had a quick phone call in transition, Jared, about, you know, how to go about it. And obviously the script had sort of flipped a little bit for myself in terms of the way I was going to attack the race, given I was in a very unique circumstance now riding around other people when I'm, you know, very accustomed to riding a little bit more solo and executing my own Plan. But I thought it would be, you know, a fantastic opportunity to experience that front of the race sort of pack dynamics a little bit more um, that otherwise I probably wouldn't have an opportunity to really experience right at that pointy end for a little while. So I thought there were. Yeah, as whilst it was disappointing to not swim, there was also a lot of things I could take away from that, that new setting of racing.

Yeah, I do just want to. Yeah, just touch on that for a second and flip to the super coach and you know, the instruction to all our age group athletes was your plan doesn't change. Especially for the Ironman athletes it was, look, yeah, you go into feel a little bit fresher without the big Ironman swim for sure but your 180km and your marathon still just stays the same. You don't do anything silly. But your instructions to Tom and Roland were fairly different.

Yeah, look, we wanted to find out where they were starting and ironically Tom's gone from the back of the field sort of thinking about riding solo to now being at the front of the field and actually getting to the front of the field where he's riding solo again with only a couple. So it was, it was kind of, you know, it was a ridiculous scenario for Tom to almost, you know, find himself in the wrong spot and you know, and I think Roland had what. What position was yours, Roland?

I ended up picking 18th, I think.

For remembering and that I felt was a really good spot because you're kind of in the middle and there could be opportunities to keep chasing the race, which is, which is what Roland's used to doing his whole life is, is starting from the back and chasing the race and, and kind of that would have been better for these two athletes to have swapped positions, I think. But because Roland's quite used to being people around him, it was Tom's kind of. Tom was. I felt this was going to be a confusion for Tom because he's not used to actually riding with people. He's used to actually catching them and going straight past them and working his way through the field. So I'd like to hear your thoughts, Tom, on what actually transpired as you started. How did the ride start off for you?

Yeah, it was. It's interesting. You obviously have, you know, you're fresh and you can sort of push power at will, I guess, a little bit. And the first sort of, you know, five or 10 minutes is essentially a drag through town and then uphill. So you definitely are wanting to ride, you know, towards the top of Your range at least anyway. But um, it's interesting having the, the start, you know, only a couple of minutes beforehand. The adrenaline's rushing and you're probably riding a little bit harder than you, you otherwise would if you, if you'd swum previously for sure. Anyway, so I guess my mindset was to look to, to start strongly but I knew there were some strong riders sort of around me and just behind me as well. It was also quite wet this morning still and there was a bit quite a technical section I guess around the Lighthouse for those who know the course and Matthew Flinders drive and whatnot. You know, sort of 10 to 15 k's into the course probably. So I was you know, conscious of you know, getting safely through those areas and then sort of settling in into the more time trial section of the course and looking to you know, establish a good power range with the out and back section there and try and dial in my numbers for the rest of the effort. But I guess yeah, I was looking to start strongly but to try and link up with anyone around me as possible and benefit from that unique scenario for me being right in the mix at the front of a race and yeah, I guess learn from and try and develop a bit more of a feel for how those race dynamics do work and how I can and best ride in them. Particularly on quite a spiky technical course like this one. It was very, very different to you know, even Geelong say has quite long out and back time trial sections where the pack dynamics might operate a bit more smoothly. It was quite up and down more than I would have appreciated going to this race actually. So yeah that was a very enjoyable but yeah, different experience and certainly kept me very engaged in, in what I was doing throughout the whole bike. So it actually it did go quite quickly. But yeah, I guess my mindset was I think Josh caught me, you know, in the first 5 to 10K. Josh Amberger, he whipped up one of those first hills pretty quickly. He's a pretty light guy so he was going well and I guess from there honestly my mindset was just to if I ride from here to the finish with Josh I'll probably do a pretty good ride because he's a top caliber athlete. He's raced at T100 and you know, 70.3 world champs and whatnot for, for many years. So I thought if I did my best to stay with him, whether that be just sitting behind him the whole way or working together then that would sort of piece together for quite a decent ride. It was interesting the way. The way it played out and different riders having different sorts of strengths, you know, I'm sure we'll get into, but developed a bit of an understanding on the second lap for where I might be best to. To push on a little bit and, and where it might be best to conserve. But again, these things, all these sor thoughts and tactical decisions are probably things that I'm not as well accustomed to doing. But again, like that made it such a valuable scenario, I think for me to learn from. It was a bit of a freebie to be able to experience that with some of these really top athletes who otherwise I think Josh would probably got out the water just ahead of me, so I might not have quite, quite been able to catch him.

Sure know, I think he might have been there or thereabouts, I'm sure on his beat.

I want to clarify some, some specific points there. Can we just go back to the. Actually the mount line. I never actually got the details of how that worked. Was it a. Was it a. Were they holding you like a time trial start or is it like a flying mount where you just run with your bike and if you want to do a flying start, you can.

Exactly as you said the second part there, Jordy. So, yeah, so I probably didn't say that specifically. So you would. I would sort of, you know, call you off in 15 second intervals and you were to sort of run and then like mount your bike as though you'd crossed the mount line out of the swim out of T1, so you weren't clipped in and then pushing off like a time trial start. It was sort of running alongside your bike, flying mount or mounting however you please. And there was some interesting cheers and things. I think Roland got an interesting remark as he jumped on, but things.

Getting heckled.

Boy. Did you both go for the flying mount?

I did.

What did you do, Tom? I can't remember.

I. I did go for the flying out. Sorry I lost you there. What did you do, Roland?

I don't back myself in to throw my like 95 kilogram frame onto this carbon frame bike. So I made the executive decision to just sort of clip in. But never in my life have I struggled as much to clip in as I did on this morning. And I couldn't get my foot in for the life of me. I was flying everywhere. And yeah, as I said, there was this lady on the side of the road who was watching and she was like, oh, he's really not doing very well at that. He's really struggling. I'm like, just. Just as I'm trying to get started, I was like, oh, fake it till you make it. And I think I just did jump on, but not quipped in and started riding.

Yeah, exactly.

It's interesting because you have had a really bad start previously where your handlebars have collapsed on you and you've actually flipped and crashed in the mount. So your confidence would be pretty low. And then to have someone heckle you, you're not actually doing it that well would be a little bit hard to take, I imagine.

All fun and games.

Yeah, true.

I forgot about that. Literally a year prior. Yeah. My 50 meters down the road, the handlebars detached from the bike and I went face first into the gravel. So I was a bit nervous about that.

But yeah, those canyon bikes, huh?

Giant bikes don't seem to do that rolling, so.

Yes, exactly. So, Dad, I want to throw back to you. And what was your game plan for. For the boys, you know, specifically, what was your instruction to them?

We did brush over that a little bit. Look, the plan was really. That's not. Act like because we're not swimming, we can actually ride harder or run any harder. The only real thing we have to monitor is the nutrition might not be required as much as we had planned. We still need the nutrition. But you haven't just swam for 25 minutes and ran through transition and burnt those calories. So you don't need to fuel like you would as if you've just swam. So that was the main thing. And I told that to all the athletes that, that whether they were in Tom or Roland's race or whether they were just age groupers, that was the same message was. And. And don't think because you're not swimming now you can actually ride a different number. That that's, you know, we. That's for the age groupers, but for the pros like Tom and Roland we're talking about, it was really. Now it's a bike. It's a bike tactical race. That's that. That's the message, depending on who's around you. And I was really worried for Tom that he would tow the whole field around and really not use the advantage of sitting in. And that was my worry to Tom and that's the message I tried to get across to him was you can't be the guy on the front doing all the work. You need to sit in. If you find you've got a good group that are going the pace you want to go, don't be distracted when you look down Instead of seeing your normal 330s, 320s, you're seeing 280s. It's okay as long as your speed is where you want it to be and as long as you, you're happy with how things are progressing. You've got to get over this. I'm not riding the right number. And, you know, for the age grouper, that's the complete opposite. We wouldn't be telling them that. It's just that you're in a pace line and when you're only 15 seconds apart, you know, you need to take that advantage and that will allow you to run better. And so working out that Thomas starting first, it was always going to be a problem where there might not be enough riders around for do that, and he might be with a group of guys who aren't as good as him. And let's face it, Tommy's one of the best riders in the pro field and so is Roland. And, and it proved to be the case because Roland actually was the fastest on the day at Port Mack in the pro field, which is an incredible feat for a second race. And I, you know, that's one of the things I, I really was pleased about because Roland was in a completely different position being in the middle of the field and, and he, he had good legs that day and he just went, you know, went through the field with seeming ease, but it wasn't like that. He really had to work and he really measured his efforts so well on different parts of the course. And Tom was mentioning how undulating this course is. There's sections where there's wind, there's hills, there's uphill, there's downhill, there's technical turns, and there's sections where you can really sit in the TT position, really time trial properly when you get far down the far end of the course and come back. So you really had to be on your game. And for someone who can the, the power and be in control of, of what they're doing and, and be pushing past people, I think Roland had a much better day than he's ever had for a long time. Compared to what he just did in his first pro race at, at Geelong. I think he rode smarter than he did and for a long time he's written smarter. He's. Tom Roland and I have always had this discussion about, mate, you're just going too hard too early. And, you know, once again he's gone out that way. But he's now had the opportunity to recover in bits with people around him, whereas before he's always riding like Tom is solo. This is only their second race. For all those people who are listening in the previous races before these two, they're always in the age group where if you ride too hard when you're solo, there's no recovery. You're actually having to wear what you've just done that first half hour or first 45 minutes. If it's too hard, you can't get a sit because if you do you're going to slow down. Whereas in the pro field, if you ride hard for a section, you can actually get a sit and recover. And that was the message that I was trying to get across to both of them was, you know, it's okay to go a little bit different than we would talk to you about when you're time trialing. Normally it's okay to be a little bit over under in a pro field because if you want to get the pace going, you want to get away from people, then you have to push harder than you would normally and then go back into your threshold. So that was the main discussion we were having before the race was, you know, it's okay to ride so differently than we've actually been trying to do for the last three or four years. And I think they really embrace that for the second time better than they did for the first time. And it proved to be so, you know, such an outcome because Roland ended up riding at 2:06, which was the fastest on the day and, and you know, he caught the majority of the field and he had a lot of guys he was towing along at the same time, but he was getting some recovery in between. Roland really rode clever and that was a, that was one of the pleasing parts of the discussion we had at the start. And Roland really executed that well.

I thought, I love your, your message of it's now a bike race and race the race and that means that use the pack and use what's happening to know that if you're in the pack and the speed is high, you could be towed around for a really fast time for less effort. That's unbelievable. But also there's this notion of that means we know the pack surge on the uphills surge higher than we'd probably want to if we were riding solo because it's that over under effort that we do want to try and avoid in, in triathlon. So I do want to get into that a little bit. But just to really clarify the course for anyone that doesn't know it is really undulating. It's a really really hard bar course and to prove that Roland was the best on the day with a 206, you know, whereas, you know, you boys can ride 202 close to two hours on a flat course and that really shows that the whole field is slower because of how undulating is, you know, it's potentially six, seven minutes slower than what you can do on the flat. So that's a really key point. And Tom, you ended up with a 209. So Roland, you've ridden almost 43Ks an hour and Tom at 209, at 42Ks an hour or 41.8. So Roland, how was your experience coming from 18th and in the pack and riding those surges and undulations? Exactly how dad just explained the kind of difference to what you're used to.

Yeah, well, Jared, you've been very kind to me, Dave, very, very appreciate those kind words. So thank you. But as you say, yeah, totally different dynamic. And it's always easier, I think, coming from a position behind like I was in, you know, having a bit of a character chase, whereas Tom, being off the front sort of having to work, I guess, with less motivation, you know, people to chase is always, you know, harder. So in my mind I thought, I know time's up the road and I think the gap was going to be about three, three minutes or so roughly. And so I knew that there was inevitably going to be a group forming somewhere between me and Tom or, you know, rather. And so as you say, the undulations come fairly early on in the course. And so my mindset, as Jared said, was to sort of, you know, make it a bit like a bike race. Um, and so I did go out very hard again, even though. But this time I guess it was the correct thing to do. Um, as you said, it's a bit more race dynamics. But yeah, I did go out very hard. Um, and my, my goal was to make the benefits of those rolling hills at the start where it actually. Karen, Tuber sometimes actually is better to be a bit heavier because you can maintain your speed a bit better over the crests. So I think I made up a lot of time there pushing quite hard to try and, you know, catch hopefully a main group that had formed sort of along those hills. And yeah, so it was about, I think, a 10 to 15 minute effort out to the lighthouse and then down Matthew Flinders Drive and I was, you've got a very, very short out and back section there at the lighthouse section where you can sort of see where everyone is. I could see that I'd done fairly decent effort of closing that gap because I think I've. I just glimpsed on, I think turning left down the hill, which was probably about a two minute gap. I think I had it on my computer as. And then there was another group between him of about five or six guys, probably only 40 seconds up the road. Um, and so I knew that that was definitely a closable gap that I could probably try and get to for the flat section that was coming up. And so I really did try to just hammer down and say, well, look, I'm gonna really try and certainly overextend myself for what I would normally do if I was just riding by myself so that I could try and reach that group. Because you do get quite a big benefit of, you know, draft at 12 meters, as we've said before. So, you know, if I can try and capitalize on spending energy now and then save it and then go fast for less speed, for less power, faster for less power on the flat section, then, well, it would just be silly not to try and do that. Unfortunately, it didn't quite eventuate as that because I ended up just dangling in limbo about, I think, 100 or 200 meters off the back. I had the. One of the other. The eventual race winner was with me as well. He sort of jumped onto my wheel and was working quite hard with me, like through the hills and stayed on. And then, yeah, as I said it was. I could see that he was right behind me, but I could also see the group about 200 meters up the road on that flat section. So I knew that he was right behind me, but also I really wanted to get to that group.

And then.

So I worked quite hard, but then got caught in this mindset of not wanting to help the other person behind me as well, as you said. So sort of tried to get to work with him, try and catch this group, which didn't quite eventuate until, I guess, you know, halfway through the race. So we ended up having to do the first half of the race just and him. But eventually, yeah, we caught on through that hilly section again at the second half of the race, which was quite nice to have a bit of company for the second half.

And then how did it, how did it finish? Off the bike leg.

So after catching that group, we still continued to work all together. And as I said, we still had some people up the road, including Tom, who I think is. He's the main person who I think I always just want to chase down, you know, just because He's. He's a mate and you always have that friendly rivalry going on.

That's a lot.

I know that he can, he can run bloody bloody well, so that if I was going to have any chance that, you know, going toe to toe with him, I'd have to put at least some time to him on the bike, which, I mean, is not an easy feat because he's an animal on the bike as well. So I love that you guys are.

Pro race and you. And you're still just focusing each other a little bit.

It's.

It's a classic. It's like.

It's like.

It's like a sibling rivalry, you know?

Exactly right. I mean, and it's just a bit more, I guess, I mean, because the caliber of athletes that you're dealing with, I mean, even at some of these smaller races is just incredible and like, they can just run the house down. So. And I guess, you know, Tom and I sort of coming up through, you know, similar circumstances, as we've said before, puts it a bit more in, like, reality. I mean, I guess for. For myself at least. I want to be at the pointy end of any race, of course, but I mean, it's always just nice to have someone there that, you know, you're there thereabouts with that you can have good friendly rival rivalry with. So, yeah, a big goal was to try and catch Tom, which unfortunately didn't eventuate. He held us off, which was, you know, Chef, over time. But yeah, we, we put some turns in and I did at one point, I did cramp coming back into town. I thought, oh, this is going to be a. A bad start to bad end to the day now, and managed to shake it out coming back in on the. The rolling hills back into town. And yeah, I think again, I saw Tom coming into transition about a minute or so ahead of me. And then, so, yeah, off on the bike onto the run with, yeah, a bit of a buff buffet of cash.

Tom and Tom, how did you find it's really specifically the back half of the bike unfold, but really in terms of your effort and the waters you're putting down and the group around you, what was that? Knowing the instructions before the race going in a changing mindset, a change in context for you. How did that play out in terms of what you were seeing and what you were feeling?

Yeah, I was definitely aware that we were losing time on the road, so I guess, yeah, for the first lap I was a little bit. A little bit conservative, mind you, to be honest. I was still riding like I was pretty well on the limit, I think. But I was conscious of not doing too much work because I was with a few guys who are, you know, a little bit more seasoned than I am at that level of racing. And I sort of mentioned I thought if I could stick with them as a group, the sort of two or three, three or four of us at that point, then I'd probably be able to have a pretty good ride. And the group sort of seemed to split up. I think they would then down to two. Josh and I again after the turn through town. And then I think Caleb Noble caught up to us. So we sort of had three of us for the last 30 or 40k, for example. But to be, to be honest, at that point I was pretty concerned about Roland and co coming from behind. It was, yeah, it was evident on the road that we were, you know, bleeding a little bit of time. Time, which was interesting and yeah, a little bit, a little bit frustrating given that I thought we'd worked fairly hard. I felt like I'd worked pretty hard on the first lap. So I knew Roland had been absolutely drilling it. Scary side of the far turn around, seeing the big man on, on the front of a big pace line, towing a whole lot of people back up to us. And I will. I was a little bit distracted when Roland was talking because I was looking back for a ride. We did it from bright last January. Roland is a big strong guy, but he's also, which people might not appreciate, he's a sensational bike handler as well. So I found, I think he's got like the 8th fastest descent down Mount Hotham from when we just went for a, you know, endurance ride a couple, you know, 16 months ago or something like that in January. But so what? Something that really impressed me. Roland obviously rode really smart and really well, but his bike handling skills through some of the technical sections and the sweeping corners on the wet roads and the sort of off camber turns and things like that, I think he, you know, he's clearly putting down an enormous amount of power. But I think Roland's bike handling really came to the fore in this race as well because I think he was just able to maximize on all those little parts of the course and the seconds all added up, which yeah, obviously helped him alongside, you know, however many hundreds of watts he was putting down on top of that closed the gap really effectively. So to be, to be honest, on the second lap I was very conscious of that. I was confident in my sort of running ability. But I knew a lot of people around me just further along their, you know, athletic progression, guys like Josh Amberger and Caleb Noble. I was sort of under no illusion that I was riding with them and that they were pretty well going to get off the bike and, and run a couple of minutes into me with no trouble, just because that's where their level is at at that point. So I was stuck in a little bit of this limbo, given that I felt by that point of the bike they'd ridden quite strongly the first lap. But I think things were slowing up a little bit, particularly on some of the more time trial like sections. They were quite strong through the undulations and the hills and parts like that. But I felt as though I was probably riding a little bit stronger in some of the more open time trial roads, which are probably a little bit more familiar to my style of rid riding and sitting on a sort of number and riding that sort of time trial mode a bit more consistently. Whereas I think I did, I did suffer a little bit more with the spiky nature of the rest of the course. So that was a really interesting thing, I guess, to take away from that race. But yeah, I was probably trying to do quite a lot of work to keep the speed high in the second lap. Jordan, I guess in the answer to your question, because I knew, I knew the train was coming with a heap of place behind us. So, yeah, I sort of put my head down and tried to work as solidly as I could a little bit. Yeah, with a little bit of difficulty, knowing that I was probably towing some guys in sit for good sections who I knew were going to run faster than me. But I guess as I explained to Jared afterwards, ultimately I just wanted to get from A to B as fast as I could. And I still felt as though doing, you know, as much work as I could tolerate. And you know, I wasn't on the, on the front for the entire second lap or anything. Like I'm still, still using the rest as needed. I guess at that point was trying to use it more as needed in, in the wheels and then get back on the front as soon as I could just because I felt like the speed was a little bit higher when I was able to do that. But it was certainly still helpful having people to recover with in between those turns. But yeah, I guess ultimately I probably ended up doing a bit more work than I would have anticipated or thought that I was going through on the first lap, to be honest, given that I was sort of on the limit to hang on to them. But then things sort of seem to open up and, yeah, it was very conscious of Roland and a whole bunch of other riders as well who are riding a little bit of time into us up the front. So, yeah, look to, look to do a little bit more. Bit more work in that back end and just keep the speed going as much as possible. It was a difficult course, I guess, to have a really good gauge on. There were a couple of longer out and back sections that were a bit flatter and you could sort of use your time trial rolling numbers a little bit more. But as we mentioned quite a few times, the surgery nature of the undulations meant that some sections you were sort of just, you know, riding a bit harder and trying not to sort of overcook it too much, and then the other sections recover and get to the next crest, et cetera.

So, yeah, so that's super interesting because your power, in terms of comparison, it's. It's a hard race to analyze because your power was higher than Geelong, both your average power and normalized power. And so you, you know, leading in, you might think that you'd be able to potentially, you know, ride same speed or ride just as well for maybe lower power in a pack, but I guess you were doing a lot of work, but, you know, with that experience of feeling on the limit, you know, you were riding basically harder than Geelong. So, dad, when you see that power and you're trying to analyze the race with the boys, what is, what are your thoughts on that? With the amount of work versus the power versus the speed?

Oh, we, we actually saw a really good example of this at the Giro, didn't we, with the, the penultimate stage where Derek G. Was riding steady state power with Carapaz and Del Toro just attacking each other, and Derek G. Would just catch up and pass them, and then these guys would sit up and slow down. And that's kind of what the, the pro style of triathlon is now, where you might have to do some turns on the front, you might have to be able to sit in, so you're getting this high and low and the normalized power, which should actually be higher in this style of riding. And if you do more power on the. More time, sorry, on the front, you know, because you've got competition around you. And, and let's remember, Tom and Roland have always been riding solo. They haven't had anybody around them. And so they've been riding like Derek G. Was, where he's just riding constant threshold, you know, on a Climb. And, and for these guys in a triathlon, they're, they're actually. That's the way they've done this for the last three or four seasons. And now they're in a different dynamic. They've got competition around them and you know what it's like when you've got competition around you. You ride, you ride differently, you ride harder because you want to hold your position or. In Tom's situation, he's just explained he felt like the pace was coming off, but it really wasn't. It was okay for him not to go to the front. That would be a lesson he could learn in hindsight that, you know, just because he felt like the pace was going off, it's because he's not used to having recovery. That's actually what's happening to Tom. He's so used to riding threshold now. He's in a situation where he can ride over under and he's a very good over under rider, but he's just not used to doing it in a race. And so is Roland. Roland's a very good over under rider. They've trained like this. They know how to do this and they also know how to ride threshold. So it's only race two of their career riding like this. So we can't be too harsh on worrying that they've ridden too hard in sections and too easy in other sections because that's the nature of the event they're in now. And it's worse when you don't have a swimming because there's pretty much the whole field is now, you know, bunching up within a minute or two of each of each other. Whereas in most other races, you know, There could be eight minutes between the front of the race and 25th in a profield, it could be that many minutes. And when you look at, you know, the range of times, Roland was a 206 and Tom was a 2, just over 2 9. And you know, the majority of the field were all between that, that everybody rode within two minutes of each other. And when you look at the final result, you know, Roland's come ninth overall and he's literally three minutes off third, you know, and that, that should be encouraging. And you know, even though Tom's come 10th, he's, you know, he's only another minute behind and, and you know, you're two minutes behind fourth or fifth. These are the things that I take as the positives. You know, you're right there with the best guys. And for these two guys to ride their second pro race and be right there. It's, you know, I'm not super critical, Jordan, of their tactics and their power numbers. That's what we take away from that. I think it's a really good thing that they're getting an experience and learning as they go. And we just can't be that harsh. And we know that we're learning each race we do. And Tom will be better for it because now he can trust that he doesn't have to be the one doing a lot of the work at the front because. Because, you know, the guys around him, they're already doing that. They're doing that week in, week out for the last that they might have done 30 or 40 races like this, whereas this is their second. So. So I think, yeah, from, from an analysis point of view, I'm happy for them to make mistakes. I'm happy for them to learn from races. These aren't qualifying races for the world titles. These aren't, you know, Olympic selection. These are practice races for these guys, you know, to get. To get better at their sport. So, yeah, we just go along with it and try to dissect it afterwards and, you know, and then go back to training again and come back to the next race with some more weaponry that we've learned from this race.

And so I want to take this moment to congratulate you both on Getting a top 10 finish in your second race at a pro race. Tom in 10th and Roland in 9th. It's absolutely phenomenal despite the asterisks next to it. You absolutely take it. You can only race what, what race they give you. And so really, really good. And, and I want to get your review on. On how you ran, Roland. One of, one of your best runs yet, for sure, to get you in ninth. And, and Tom, you actually ran, I think, two seconds faster than Geelong. You can correct me in a second off a tougher bike, definitely a tougher bike course and a harder bike, which, which is definitely impressive. So one, congrats on that. But, yeah, Tom, take us through the. How your review of the run, you know, what did you think of, of your run legs and, and the time that you were able to do?

Yeah, the run was probably the thing that I'd been feeling the best in training with between Geelong and then. And then Port Mac. So I was, I was pretty keen to see what I could do on the run. I felt pretty average, to be honest, on the first, first lap, which I notoriously sort of do. I'm. I don't have trouble getting out the Gates too quickly and running fast too early. I'm definitely more checking my splits to make sure I'm actually on it enough. And then I seem to always feel better the further the run goes. But I do struggle to sometimes sort of get straight onto the pace. I didn't struggle too much this time, to be honest, to actually get, get to a good range. But I was in no danger of overrunning early, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But it was interesting getting off, off the bike with. I had a pretty good transition actually because I already had my socks on. I think some of the other guys might have put them on afterwards or I sort of got swiftly through, swiftly through T2 and yeah, basically had a bunch of those seasoned pro athletes absolutely whiz past me in the first cage going faster than, faster than I was willing to push to hold on to the back of them at that point by a long way. So I pretty much just settled into my rhythm. I was confident that yeah, I've been running really well in training and I was looking forward to seeing, seeing what I could piece together. Jordan, as you said, off, off a much tougher bike and a much spikier effort. So the legs were definitely feeling it you know, a lot earlier in the run. It's a real sort of beat your legs up bike course and that always makes the, the legs pretty tender I think trying, trying to run at pace following that. And there were a couple of good. One sort of main solid climb on the early in the run course as well. That was a good test. And then you sort of want to capitalize on the downhill but that's always hard on the quads when you're, when you're trying to run fast downhill as well. So yeah, all in all it ended up being, yeah, probably my best run today I think which I was really pleased with given the. Through the first lap or the first 10k, I guess I was, you know, I was running reasonably but I'd sort of hoped for a bit more I guess is the simple way of putting it. But I was sort of able to push on a little bit from there and, and finish really strong. So that was a relief and I felt like I could sort of salvage something from, from I guess a run that to that point before the last sort of 5, 6, 7k. I hadn't felt as though I'd been able to sort of run super freely and, and sort of express the, the training that I'd, I'd done previously. But I guess something that was really really spurring me on all the way through the run was seeing that Roland was running really strong as well. I knew he had a really good bike because he pretty much got off the bike just, just behind me. Like I saw him coming into transition. So I knew he'd essentially, yeah, as he mentioned, close that, you know, three minutes on the road. So I was sort that I'd be able to, you know, extend that gap swiftly on the run. But he was having a really, really impressive, solid run after what must have been something he might mention about his power data. A phenomenal, phenomenally strong, strong ride. So that was very motivating for me as well and always having someone like Roland. You know, as we've mentioned before, we know if we're both having a great day, we're very evenly matched, but come the finish line, as we've sort of seen a few times before, so it's really good to have someone like that that you can give yourself sort of a real honest comparison with and, you know, when he's still sort of maintaining that gap pretty well, it's, it's keeping me honest and keeping me on it all the way through to the finish line to squeeze as much as I could out. And I guess the dynamics as well made it really interesting right through to the end, given that it was, you know, not a mass start, you don't know exactly where you are in the field with the clock still running meant that everyone was really sprinting all the way through to the finish line, which was actually, yeah, pretty cool to see. Even after we finished, there were still some, some Pros who, Kurt McDonald finished pretty high up in the, in the field in the end and he was absolutely rinsing it all the way through to the finish line where he had a double hamstring cramp or something. So that was, yeah, definitely a unique factor with everyone sort of just trying to squeeze as much as they could out of the entire course to stop the, the clock as quick as possible. But yeah, I guess in summary, yeah, I was pleased with the run by the time we got to the finish.

Line.

But yeah, probably just hadn't had a hand out as smoothly as I would have wished for. But there's never the perfect race, so we'll keep chasing that elusive, elusive goal.

I just wanted to mention Jordan, before you ask the next question, I just want to mention that a lot of the guys come out of transition at a pace that's not sustainable and it's an interesting one to have a conversation with Roland and Tom about I could pick out guys who came 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, all came out running probably 15 to 20 seconds per km faster than they actually ended up running. And just because they've been doing this a long time doesn't mean they're doing it right. And, and if they actually changed their game plan and didn't do that to themselves and didn't go into the red zone, they may actually end up running better because they put huge amount of time into Tom early. And if I looked at seventh, eighth, sixth, I can see that they beat Tom by 12 seconds and by 20 seconds yet they put huge gaps into him in the first 7 or 8K. And by the end of the day, Tom had caught it all back. And, and that's the message I want to get across to our guys and to, you know, to, to all age group athletes really, you know, just don't charge out of transition. And I got, I think these guys are making a mistake. They would run better if they, if they. I'm not talking about our guys, I'm talking about the guys they're racing against. They're just, they're all just running 305, 303, and that equates to, you know, some, you know, sub 110 runs and they're all running 115s. So it doesn't make sense that, but it really puts you off as a, as an athlete when you see, when you see five or six guys doing it and you're not, you feel like you're the odd one out and, and they're all right. But in actual fact, it's, it's just because a group of people doesn't mean that are doing it, doesn't mean it's right. So, so that's kind of one of the things I want to mention, Jordan. I think, I think, you know, the discipline. Tom says he can't run any faster at the start anyway, but, but it still takes discipline to hold back. And, and he ended up running, you know, as he said, one of his fastest ever. And his execution was brilliant. And, and I wanted, while I'm talking about that execution, Rollin actually was worried that, you know, I feel good now, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay for this later. But it never happened. And it's because we'd worked so hard between Geelong and, and Port Mac on, on really getting him stronger in the back half of the run and, and it paid dividends. And, you know, that that monkey that you were expected to jump onto your back didn't come and and you were able to, you know, it was interesting. The two of them were literally 40 seconds different at the end, which is pretty amazing. Over how many races have you guys between been within one minute? So. But, you know, it's phenomenal that Roland was still able to beat Tom this time round, which has turned the tables. It's been a while. The rivalry is good and it was a race with no swim. So that was actually a more impressive performance by Roland. I'm not downgrading you, Tom, at all here, but I'm just.

I could have just pulled one out.

And, you know, I would say the same to Lionel if he was listening. Listening. So.

Yes, just, just to jump on that before we get your thoughts, Roland. It was a, in terms of the stats, it was a 1:18 run with a first half split of 344 pace into a 3:30, wait, 338 second half split. So you really come home like a train, which I think you would have been super pleased with after a run that you weren't as pleased with at Geelong and, you know, you averaged 352pace there. I think that's your fastest run off the bike.

I think you do go quicker in.

Time in Melbourne, but was it not fractionally short there or am I incorrect?

I'm not sure, actually, to be honest, on the exact answer. But, yeah, but it'd be there or thereabouts is like one of my best. And certainly it felt probably the best run, you know, that I've done, I think. And I think, as Jared said, you know, I really hope that these guys that don't listen to the podcast because it's so true that, you know, if you just go out like that, I mean, and as you said, I've made the mistake on the bike and the run myself. Yeah, you just, I don't know, you just can't really perform and you can't. It's so hard to crawl back from, you know, going into the red so early. So I think that's. That was the main goal of this race, was execution and something that I struggle with compared to Tom. He seems to be a master of it. But, you know, it's something that I really wanted to work on and try and perfect. And so, yeah, my main goal was just to go out of the pace. I knew I could maintain for the run at the start. And so I had about everybody that just spent the last, you know, two hours trying to get ahead of blast past me within about a kilometer. And, you know, it's a bit disheartening but, you know, to be expected when these guys are running, you know, insane run times and they're just phenomenal athletes. And so I sort of, at that point just thought, look, I'm just going to do my own thing now and start running my own race and speak to the, the pace that I know that I could probably handle for the first part, which, you know, I think I, I did a fairly good job of for the first 5Ks. And then there was a few guys that came running cast at maybe a few splits lower than when I was running out at the time. And then as they came past, I sort of thought I could potentially sit on them, but it might have still been overextending myself a bit. And so I made the decision just to try and let them go and just maybe start to wind up from there. I think it's about 15Ks to go. And so these guys, as they came past, still put, I think, a minute also into me and I could see them still up the road. But as you say, Jared, it's just, it's. They were overextending themselves early on in the race and then over the next 10ks just slowly but surely managed to, to reel them back in, which, you know, I think just, you know, it really does, you know, run home. Just how important it is just to focus on your execution and running within yourself rather than, you know, chasing the, you know, the ambition of wanting to run a really fast time, which of course, Ron wants to do.

But, you know, it's.

There's ways to go about doing it. And I think, as you said, that's. That's the way to do it. I think on top of that as well, it's always, to an extent, easier to have someone ahead of you that you can sort of have a target to chase. And so again, I still had Tom, but I know I'm not going to be able to run him down. So I could see that these guys, the gap was sort of maintaining it around a minute. And so it sort of breaks down the run rather than being, you know, I've still got, you know, 15Ks to run. Well now I've actually got a target and something else that I can focus on for the next 10Ks, you know, about closing down, you know, 10 meters, you know, every few minutes or so. So really does help just divide that run up and make it a bit more of a manageable thing rather than the daunting task of running 15 kilometers, which, you know, for anyone's gonna. So it's A long way. So, yeah, certainly makes a bit more manageable.

I think one of the things we should give credit to Roland is we were, we were quite harsh in a kind way after Geelong about the run performance and we understood his, his thought and his mindset. And I was super happy with the way you turned your mindset around this, and you, you made this test of yourself and giving your best effort in the run and executing as well as you could will end you up in whatever position you're in. And I think that was a real shift in mindset from, from the realization of what you did at Geelong and, and how we, we analyzed that on air live to, for everybody to listen to. That would have been very hard for you to cop that. And you did beautifully. And look at the way you turned that around. That's what I was most pleased with, the way you aggressively went about staying in your numbers and getting your ability and your ambition really spot on and, you know, stayed and focused on your own personal performance rather than saying, oh, the race is done. I'm way back here, I'll just go, you know, just, I'll just finish it off. And you change that mindset and, and that's not easy to do, you know, but I love the attitude you had and you were going to left no stone unturned for this particular race. And I think that's really good lesson for people out there listening in the age group categories. It's never over if you just hang in there, you know, and, you know, because the field was so confusing, because it was a staggered start, people who were coming 19th ended up four because they started literally three minutes behind other pros, so no one really knew who was anywhere in the field. And that was another case where you just had to keep hanging in to do your best pace possible. And wherever the result was, the result is. So that was what I was most pleased about for both guys. And Tom always does that. But, you know, Tom nailed it like we wanted him to. But Roland was the big improver here. Not only was his bike spectacular being the fastest, but that's one of the better runs he's actually put together after such a hard, brutal ride. And I think the future for Roland after this race, almost like, you know, you're back to where you were the last time you actually beat Tom, which was quite a long time ago. And I, and I think that's, you know, that's not being critical of Tom, it's just that your level has come back up again where it should have been. And we have talked about, you know, you had a whole year of your new job and you know, you just had night shift where you've worked pretty much all night and now you have to go and train during the day. These things all impact you and I think your body's getting used to it again now and Tom's just entering this phase of working odd hours as a doctor. So I know we talk about this in the last episode as well, but people dismiss this sleep as irrelevant. It's not, it's an impacting aspect of your life that you have to acknowledge exists and you have to account for it and adjust your expect in your training. And you know, there's been many times where I've said to Roland, you know, you're too tired, just don't worry about it, just do an easy session and, and you have to, you have to take a bit of control of that. And I think Roland's now getting back, he's got, I think his body's coping with the, the routine after two years now and, and I think now that you're starting, you know, as a pro now, it's gonna, I think it's only going to be better from this point going forward. That's what I'm excited about for both of them. It's, it's, they've learned so much in already in two races.

Boys, your analysis is so pragmatic and logical and it's so nice to hear you talk about it in such a level headed way and that's probably the doctors in you, but you're both going so well. And Roland, I want to ask you from an emotional point of view, was that a relief? Were you absolutely stoked or you're staying level headed and going, that's a great result and I want to keep pushing forward. Or was the emotion after that result?

Yeah, I hadn't actually really thought about, I guess how I was feeling at the time. I mean, obviously ecstatic. I think it doesn't matter how you feel whenever you finish one of these events. I think that's why everyone loves them and keeps on coming back. You just feel fantastic, you know, running down that, that finishing line, it is such an accomplishment. It doesn't matter. You know, you have a bad day, you have a great day, it doesn't matter what time you do. You know, it's an incredible accomplishment I think just to do one of these events and finish it off and so I was really happy to, to finish and execute it well. But you know, there's still more, you know, as Tom said, you know, you're always sort of chasing perfection. You always want to get that perfect race. There's, there's still a lot more to be gained on the table. You know, I think we're still, I mean myself, I'm still running about 10 minutes slower than you know, the guys that are winning and you know, Tom's a lot faster than me but you know, he's still got time to, to make up on the run as well. So we've still got a lot to work on which is really motivating because I guess it's, you know, part of the reason why everyone loves this sport is that you can just, you know, you, there's always something that you can work on and try and work towards. So yeah, really motivating for me going towards some of the next races.

Brilliant. Look, we're gonna have to not just keep these to race reviews because we wanted to get into some training talk and, and we, we know the audience would love to hear some specifics around training but we're a bit out of time for this episode so I do want to finish with just a bit of a preview for what's coming up and then maybe we'll definitely do an in between episode where we can focus on kind of stuff you're working on with training and you've both got your slightly different goals now. Roland, you've got Cannes Ironman coming up next week, which is really exciting. You've been doing some monster training sessions for that and you uploaded a key bike ride and run which everyone on Lum is very interested to see. And, and that 32km over the weekend at what progressive pace of ending up with 352 or 348.

Yeah, around that, around that pace. Which yeah, again really, you know, really motivating coming into a big race. It's been a while since I've had a crack at the Ironman distance. I think I've only done one before and it's actually the first thing that I, you know, I reached out to you guys, you know, to try and get myself ready for, you know, that Ironman that I did the first time and yeah, and so now it's going to be, I'm really looking forward to it having a lot more, you know, not just time under the bed of training but also all the experience, knowledge that you guys have been able to, you know, and you know, pardon me, you know, it's going to be really interesting, really excited to give it a good crack, you know, in a Week and a half's time. It's certainly, as you say, we've, we've changed the training a little bit. It was a bit as a late decision to actually decide, you know, to sign up for it. I remember I called Jared after the race at Port Mac saying that I was, I mean, ignoring about signing up to do the Iron man cans. But I just, at the end of the day I thought, you know, as Tom will probably say, you know, we're doing the same training almost at the moment, Tom and I, except I'm sort of focusing on an Iron man and he's, he's sort of just building his aerobic base. So I thought if I'm going to be doing that sort of training anyway, I'd rather sort of capitalize upon it and, you know, try and fit in another race to finish, I guess, the first half of the year. So, yeah, decided to just go and make a. A big training day out of Cairns, maybe we'll call it. So, yeah, made the decision to book that one in, which is going to be pretty exciting.

And just for those following along at home, give, give the audience just maybe a quick prediction or game plan of what you're really aiming for. What do you want to get out of this race?

As always, I just want to try and, you know, execute the best race that I can and try and get, you know, the best time that I can that I think that's within my realms.

It's another tough course, you know, really undulating again on the bike and rough roads and, and the humidity.

I guess to. I mean, to be fair, I think I've adjusted to the humidity now. I'm living up in Queensland now and I've had a quick look at the weather and it doesn't look too bad. It's like low of 18, high of 24, and I know it's humid, but I think some of the training sessions I was doing over summer really did sort of cook me and put me into the red, I think, over summer. And so I think managed to take some physiological gains from that, hopefully. Rough guidelines of what I've sort of put down is that I'd like to go sub eight and a half at the very least, which I know I think Jerry doesn't really love setting times like that as goals, but as a rough one, I'd like to try and do that because I think that's, you know, when I first started doing triathlon, I thought that seemed almost like an unattainable goal when. And now I think it's well within, you know, my grass, so that's something I'd love to go and do.

Brilliant. And Tom, you're like Roland just pointed out, you're in a bit of an in between period and back to some more base work. So what's your focus right now? What are you working on and working towards?

Yeah, I have to say I'm, I'm Roland's biggest fan right now. He's my favorite pro on the circuit and I cannot, I cannot wait to see him race at Cairns. I'm actually so excited to see how he goes. He's put in some serious work which has been very motivating for me as well, I guess. Jordan, with my own training, yeah, there's this quite clear. I'm not racing cans, but I sort of feel like I've almost been, you know, somewhat in my mindset doing a, you know, almost Iron man build without actually doing an Iron man, which has been quite motivating in its own way as well, seeing some of the work Roland's been doing and yeah, having my own sessions as we mentioned, not dissimilar in, you know, maybe duration, but just a slightly different approach in terms of the, the focus and the goal being more that endurance base work. Looking to get some, you know, nice long rides. I think probably had three weeks in a row of sort of five and a half to six hour plus rides with a runoff on Saturdays and you know, that was sort of similar stuff to what Roland was doing but I was just able to, you know, do it from enjoying riding my bike, building some endurance point of view without the, the race focus that Roland was putting onto those sessions. So as well as that, you know, building up that long run as well has been really good. I think probably had, you know, the longest run I've done with Joe for Quite a while, two hours, 20 on the weekend. And again Roland had done his, you know, 30k progressive run at Ironman effort. So that was always, it's always pretty easy to get out the door when you've seen someone that you like to, you know, line yourself up against having put something like that out. But the day prior it's pretty easy to butter up and just get the work done. So yeah, it's been a really interesting time actually. I've had plenty of people asking me that I see, you know, the pool or exchange message with on Instagram if I was, you know, doing cans or like you're doing some long sessions, are you doing an Iron man and stuff like that. But I've Almost felt like I am, I guess, without the, the sort of, the mental load of, of having to do so. So, yeah, huge kudos to Roland for buttering up and giving it a go at short notice. But yeah, I think, you know, despite it being a later planned decision, I think he, he's going to have a cracking day. And yeah, as I said, super, super pumped to see how he goes because I think he's either phenomenally strong and resilient athlete and obviously over an iron man, that, that pays dividends. So I'm very keen to see how the big fellow goes up north.

What a pump up for Roland. That's brilliant.

You guys are very nice today. It's fantastic.

You're on night shift. I think you kind of need a bit of it in between.

You're not going to be able to go back to sleep now. We're going to be buzzing.

Don't worry about the coffees, mate. We've got your adrenaline sorted right here.

No, that's, that's brilliant, Tom. And just to clarify, you guys scored your first points in the pro series, which is really, really exciting. You know, the Iron man pro series. Did you, did you get any points for the, for Port Mac, for the, the bike run or do they can them?

I don't think it was a pro series race, Roland. Is that right? We might have just got like, I don't know, PTO or whatever just for like professional races, but it's not part of the series, so I don't think you get serious points. But Roland will make A Nice, nice 5,000, I think, cans, I reckon, so he'll be right up the point here.

That's brilliant and that's, that's a really good way to finish this episode. Boys, thank you so much for your time as always and for your deep thoughts and your analysis. It's just so valuable for the age group is to see what you're doing and see this first year and how you're tackling it from a mindset and training perspective. Any final thoughts from you, super coach? I know that, yeah, you love the base work, it's just something that you just can't get enough of. So whether Tom's doing Ironman or not, you really pump the voice to have a really good period of serious endurance work in there and you know how much that's going to set them up for, for future races. But any final thoughts from you?

Yeah, I'm just really encouraged by their attitude and the way they're going about it and not putting pressure on themselves. There's enough pressure out there already without adding to it internally. I just love their attitude and how they've really been willing to adapt a new approach because it's quite foreign to what you've been doing as age groupers. And I think they're really learning, they're fast learners. Obviously anybody can get an answer score of somewhere around 99 and end up being a doctor. Must have some sort of intelligence to learn, learn things well. So I think that their mindset is the thing that I'm really most impressed with and they're willing to absorb the information and put it into practice. And I'm really excited for the future. And yeah, it's a, it's a great start. Two down and they're, they're doing all the things right and let's just see if we can stay fit, stay on the track and, and thought, you know, for Roland, this is a, this is kind of a little bit of a test for himself to see if he can execute across a bigger race and longer day. And you know, he did quite well at basso in his first go was he waned a little bit in the run at the end there, I remember, but, but certainly he blew me away. I think he wrote a 440 that day. It might have been, might have been under 440. Was it wrong? I can't remember. It was 3:40.

He is around there. 4:30, to be honest.

Something like that.

4:30, 1:49 actually.

Yes, something like that. Sorry, I'm a bit, my memory's a bit bad there, but I just lost you nine minutes for no reason at all. So, but, but yeah, we wanna, we wanna see if you can, you know, obviously ride super strong and then see if you can run. So that's, that's the goal. And, and look, Tom's, Tom's doing some big numbers, you know, a couple hundred eighty, 190k rides and some really good runs and, and, and yeah, he's just building that in strength and endurance, which is what we bang on about in our podcast for, for the age grouper. And yeah, exciting stuff ahead for this year. So keep up the good work, boys.

It's a great way to finish. Good luck, Roland at Cairns. And we can't wait for episode three where we'll break down some more, more training stuff and, and hopefully break down a great race for, for Roland's iron man. Thank you boys for joining us again on this episode.

Thank you very much. Great to chat, guys.

Thanks.

Cheers.

Thanks for this one. Thank you very much. For listening. As always, we hope you enjoyed this analysis of the boys rookie year and we'll see you on the next one.