How To Train Over The Holidays

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined as always by your host, former Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly. And I am Jordan Donnelly. On today's episode, we're talking about the upcoming holiday season, known as the silly season for some and how to best approach it to get the most out of your training. And for some people, they'll come out the other side of the Christmas and New Year period with a flying start, a head start, you could say, for 20, 21 and for others it will be a start that puts them behind. So we'll get into that shortly. But first, dad, what's been catching your attention?

I suppose now that we've got out of the post Covid period in the last few minutes, few weeks, few days, I think people are very excited about the future and that's what's caught my attention. But I think they're thinking too big in their, their mind of, because they really don't know what the, the next six months could look like. They're picking goals and we've talked about goal setting a lot, but they're picking goals that I think could, could create problems in everything in, in their life. Because we've always said that the triangle of work, family and your passion, whether it's cycling or triathlon or running, that that needs to fit in with the rest of your life. And if you, if you just pick a goal, the example would be There's a, a three peaks race coming up in Victoria. It's know, 240 something K, four and a half thousand meters of climbing. It can be anywhere between eight hours if you're, you know, an elite rider, to 12, 13 hours if you're, you know, a novice. And that's like doing an Ironman. It is something that you can't just sit around a coffee table saying, yeah, let's just do that without actually understanding the consequences of what that entails. And I've got other examples of events that people are picking Ironman. Um, and you've just got to understand the impact that's going to have on the rest of your life between now and that race day. Can your work afford you to be training so many hours? Can your family afford you to be away, you know, six to eight hours on a weekend, riding your bike or running or whatever you're doing? So just picking goals. It's almost like when you've come back from injury or illness, you want to get straight back on the horse and do the hard session. Well, coming back from COVID I think people are doing exactly that, picking something that's probably too extreme. And my advice is to just pull back a bit and pick something that's a stepping stone, something that's manageable in your lifestyle. And a lot of people have suffered badly through work, not having incomes, having less income than they had before, stresses from all sorts of things from what 2020 has created. So it's caught my eye in a negative way, but I think there's a positive in it. People are very excited and loving, back in their bunches and back training socially and seeing all their friends and getting back to their normal routine. But you've just got to be careful when you're picking these goals that you don't actually cause more stress in your life that you've just experienced in 2020. And picking goals that are going to create drama in, you know, mainly talking families here. If you're a single person, it's probably okay. And I'm not saying it's not okay to choose those big goals. I'm not saying that. I'm saying just be careful what you choose because the day comes and if you're under prepared for that, it will be a very unenjoyable experience as compared to picking a smaller challenge that you're very well prepared for with the confines of the time that you've got with work and family. And it's just as, just as a good feeling of achievement as picking something that's massive.

So I guess to clarify, and you've spoken about this before, it's understanding the consequence of the goal that you're choosing and what it actually means for your life. And I think off air we're talking about, you're talking about your own example of when you had us as young kids and your decisions around what goals and you probably went too far the other way. Is that right?

Yeah, definitely. You know, every decision you make, it has consequences. The consequence for something like a 15 hour mountain trail run means that if, if someone said to me, what, what are the training requirements for that? I would say you need to build up to an 8 and a 10 hour run in a training day. Well, immediately you go, oh wow. But why would you be shocked when the day might be 15 hours and for 3 peaks you need to work up to 2 or 3 200k rides? Don't be shocked by that because you're expected to do 240 on the day. So there's consequences in your daily life each day and each weekend that unless you're able to fulfill those roles, you're going to arrive on race day under prepared and therefore you get the consequence of having a shocking time.

That's good. That's a really good reminder to think about as we head into 2021 and we finish this year. What's been catching my attention is quite simply the rule of thumb that you don't need to flog yourself every session. I joined a friend in his running group last week and it was an old running friend of mine. I actually haven't run with him in years, but I ran past him randomly and so I decided to join his group. And there was a lot of younger kids in the group. There was 16 year olds up to 19 year olds. And I remember, you know how much fun it was being in those running groups when you're 16 and 19 and it's in the warm up, you just take off and you fly around for four or five kilometers. And we were just running a pretty steady pace and they were 200 meters ahead of us in the warm up and then they slowly came back to us and in the reps, the first one, they went out absolutely flying and then they slowly faded. But we were having a funny chat about how when you're younger, your goal is to flog yourself every single session and see if you can just be on the ground almost vomiting Tuesday night, Thursday night, and then you race Saturday and then you're also running around at school a lot, working really hard and it's really fun, but it's quite exhausting and you can run yourself into the ground. And we did a pretty solid session and he just said, I'm just not interested in that anymore. It's a Saturday morning, I want to have a good session, I want to have a really good training hit out, but I'm just not going to try and make myself vomit every Saturday morning. It's not what I'm about anymore. And that was a really good veranda for me as well that you don't have to flog yourself every session. And you talk about this a lot where there's a range that you can train to and we tell our athletes to train in the range and if you feel good you can go to the up end of the range, but you definitely don't have to do that every session and you won't lose much fitness going at the lower end of the range or just getting through it. And that was a good thing to experience, just not having to flog yourself and really enjoying the session. And most importantly, it means that you're not so exhausted that you're actually not looking forward to the next day's session. You know, I find if I go so hard on a Saturday morning, I actually really don't look forward to the Sunday long run. Whereas if I've run solo and I feel like I can run the next day.

Yeah, it's so true. And during the COVID period where there's no races, you're actually looking forward to the very first race and then all of a sudden all the races are available and you do five out of the first six, you know, with, you know, in a period of two weeks and then you're back in that over raced again, you know. So yeah, what you say is a really good point.

Yep. So on that note, we'll get into the topic of today's podcast episode and that is how to approach the holiday period. So I want to start off and just ask you straight out, how do you personally approach this period?

Over the years my philosophy has definitely changed because when I was younger and almost what we talked about in what's caught your attention, your topic and my topic I was in this category was holidays. As a teacher, six to eight weeks on an awesome period I'm going to have of training and I would start out with just massive volumes of training and hardly any variety in the intensity. It was just go long and go hard for the whole period. And I couldn't wait, couldn't wait to get, get the holiday period started and do as much training as possible and expect to be tired. And it's okay because I don't have to work, I can just rest in between. And to a certain degree that's okay to do that. But there will be a point where you will start to go backwards because the fatigue level is so high from the amount of time you've been training that you can't wait to for the holiday period to end. And that happened to me year after year and eventually I got smarter as I got older. And like the analogy we used before, when you come back from injury and illness, just jumping straight back into it is not the way to go. When you've got a big period of holiday time, start off nice and easy and build just like you would do in a training session. Start off a little bit conservative and finish strong. So the analogy over a two week period or four week period is the same. Don't do your best training in the first three days and then spend the next 12 days really suffering from what you've done in the first three days. So get to your holiday destination, short ride straight away, tap away or short run next day, a little bit more, a little bit more intensity, but not much examples like that. And you progressively build your way into the holiday program. And sure you need to still do the hard intensity stuff and you've got more time to do extra volume. But that's the approach that I eventually took and really look forward to it more now than ever. Then I've got to be patient. I've got this two or three weeks here. I've still got my main sets to do following my program, but all the extra stuff that I've got time to do was all easy, every single one of it. And if I ended up meeting some friends who wanted to ride extra stuff with me, the minute they half wheeled me, I let them go and they were forever turning around going, what are you doing? And I said, I've done my session, this is just recovery and I'm happy to let them go. I'm not going to be a sheep and just do what I used to do. And oh, here's another group of riders, let's ride with them flat out. And then we meet up with someone else. Someone wants to go hard there because they just joined the group, they're fresh and everybody follows them. It's just a recipe for disaster. And so that's how I now approach the holiday period. It's a great opportunity because you aren't working, you've got lots of time to rest, you've got lots of time to enjoy socializing, get your training out of the way and enjoy the day as a family or as a group of people if it's not a family, just group of friends. Enjoy the period with your training done and not have to worry about, I've got to do this training session. So therefore I can't eat or drink or do things. And my philosophy is get up early even though it's a holiday and you should sleep in. But I was quite happy to know that I could rest or even have a sleep during the day if I wanted to on the beach, knowing that I wasn't going to be very taxing during the day. I was happy to get up at 6 o' clock and have my session done by 8:30, get back to the house and most people are just getting out of bed. So it was a really good system that I got to do. Especially when you kids were younger, you know, you didn't even know that I'd gone Training half the time.

Yeah. Is that something that you recommend everyone approach it the same way now?

Oh, most definitely. If you do the old method, there is only one one, one result. And the fatigue factor from your holidays could actually derail your season. Instead of actually setting it up, it could massively put you in a hole of fatigue. And if you overreach, you could be out for four to six weeks of no training because your body is not coping and you actually have to stop training just to let everything in your body realign and get back to normal levels.

So let's talk about that balance a little bit because you are basically saying that you can go longer but not harder. So, so you can definitely do more duration, but the main sets have to be the same. The extra duration has to be easy, but you've also got more time to recover. Like you said, you know, you're spending the day with family at the beach, you can relax, you can have a sleep, you're not going to work and exhausting yourself, you know, as I say, burning the candle at both ends. So in that sense, can you actually afford to go harder for longer? But you have to not do it to you over train or the main sets are still what your body's capable of.

Well, and as, as we've talked about many times on our podcasts, the three hard sessions in a week generally, and one of them, the endurance ride, has a hard section in it. And you know, that's the time where it's a, it's almost like a freebie, a free ride. And that's the time where I would say, if the whole sessions want it to be hard, fine, make it as hard as you like because that's the day where you want to have fun. The other sessions, midweek, if you did that continuously too much, it would eventually hurt you as well. But, but to have that endurance day where, you know, if you've done plenty of pre building to that period, you know, I can still remember thinking, right, we're going to Queensland. You know, I haven't done much training, I've been working a lot, kids have been busy. But the first ride, you know, I'll be right with 120, 130, 140k. I'll be fine. The longest ride I'd done was 60. Why would I think that I would be fine to do 120? Well, of course I'm thinking, I've been doing this a long time. I've been doing this 30 or 40 years. So haven't I got something built up in my base, my bank is full of endurance. Well, you still can get through it, but it will just create so much fatigue for the next few days that it's detrimental to what you're trying to achieve. So I've tried both ways and the best fun I ever had was when I learned to do the slow progression and pick the days where I'm going to say today's a freebie. If someone wants to go an extra two hours and make it a six hour ride, as long as I'd already done three hours, four hours in the build up before that holiday period. So you need to be almost pre seasoned for your holiday period. And most people have really had a good year this year. So I wouldn't imagine that that would be a problem to add, you know, instead of doing 120k on a Saturday to do 160 or 200. So yeah, it's, I don't want to be a party pooper or spoil sport, but definitely the one day you can do it is that endurance day. The other sessions, you know, the main set, it's hard enough as, you know, doing the sessions we do on those intense days, you know, if you're going to tamper or tinker with that, you're on a recipe for a disastrous holiday period. I think you'll just be that fatigued that come the second week you won't be able to hit any of the sessions that you're trying to do. And that's actually not advancing you. And you know when you said before flogging yourself, you know, you realize you're not going to lose fitness. Well, even just by doing easy sessions, you don't lose fitness, you just maintain. The only time you really lose fitness is when you stop training. And even then there's quite a period before you actually lose fitness. So don't think that by not training hard you're going to lose fitness. That's actually not correct. You're just maintaining.

Yeah. So what about for triathletes that feel like because they've got more time on their hands, they can probably start doing two a day sessions? Because the reason that triathletes often don't is just a time thing. You know, it's. There's three sports to train for through the week with work, but now that, you know on a Monday, instead of just doing a swim, you've probably got time to go for a swim and a ride or a swim and a run. Is that still just the same principle? It's too much. You don't need to be doing it.

No, definitely I would be. I would be encouraging my triathletes to do a ride on a Friday and a Monday, if that's the day where they swim. But it would have to be like you are chatting and as a percentage of FTP, you would be between 30 and 50% and, you know, groups of old ladies, mother clubs could pass you. So there's no, there's no reason to ride. There's no fitness gain. It's a recovery gain and we've talked about that many times where we're just getting blood flow. And you wouldn't want to pick a course that's got climbs in it where, you know, in order to get up the climb without walking, you have to ride at 75, 95, 100%. Well, that's a bad recovery course selection. So, yeah, get on the bike on a Monday and a Friday when you, you know, you're adding an extra session and sure, ride for an hour, an hour and a half, but it's low intensity. Talking intensity.

Yeah. Okay, what about the other side of the spectrum? So this is assuming that you're talking to athletes who are really motivated and are really looking to get the most out of the holiday period. And like you said before, you know, if athletes have had a really good year with COVID and they've done their base training properly, they're going to be in a good position to make the most of the holiday period. But not everyone's done that. A lot of people haven't had the best base training. They, they struggled with training and motivation through Covid and they maybe just want a bit of a break over the holiday period and they just want to relax and socialize. And we referred to at the start of the silly season, you know, a lot of people just go to social activities and their training kind of goes out the window. So how do you approach that person who you're trying to say actually you need to keep your training going?

I would ask them mainly about their goal that they've set. So I would say anything you choose to do during this period is totally acceptable. That's my, that's my very first statement. If you want to choose to do extra, fantastic. As long as you follow the guidelines. If you want to do less, that's absolutely fine. But what's the goal that you're trying to achieve down the track? What's the big picture is the goal 6 months away, 12 months away, and that does determine what you are able and capable to get away with during this break. Period. So if the goal's quite near, like if Christmas time is always December, January, if the goal you're training towards, for example, as a triathlete might be Geelong, well, that's really not a good idea. I would be pointing that out to them saying, yep, if you want to just take it easy during this period, Geelong's in six weeks time from this particular period that you want to take it easy for. I would say it might take 15% off your outcome. Are you okay with that? And give them a reason to rethink their decision. And if you're okay with that, that's fine. Absolutely. Have no drama with that. But don't come to the end of the race and say, I thought I would have done better because it's clearly a decision you've made that in your program journey that you decided to take a period off so you might need to reset your goal to a bigger goal later on. So it's a discussion like that that you would want to have where they're taking ownership of their decisions and there's consequences for every decision. As, as we've said many times, and it's all to do with what you know. If you, if you haven't got a race goal, does it really matter that you have an easy period? Absolutely not. If, if, you know, if that's the, if that's what you want to do for this holiday period, I would be encouraging people to take the time off, get a break, away from it. But if you've got a goal that you've set, it's a different, different scenario. So I think there's, there's always a reason for the things I'm saying. It depends on what you. We say a lot. It depends, and this is one of those where it depends on what your big picture goal is and what state you're in at the moment. Even if you've got a big picture goal that's quite near and you are struggling, I would still encourage to make it a, a maintenance period. And you know, I'm not a big believer in all or none. I like the balance. So why would you do nothing in that period? Why wouldn't you just go for walks and some easy swims and just make sure you're moving.

That's what I wanted to clarify because you said in there, you know, take some time off. If you don't have a goal, feel free to take some time off. And I'm assuming, I know that you don't mean stop training, whereas a lot of people might take that and say, oh, Jared said take time off for two weeks.

Yep, time off. Time off from being in a structured program. That's what I mean. And just like we've talked about a preseason football club, you know, you can choose to have no training between the end of the season and the start of the next season. You know what's going to happen at the first week of preseason. If you've done a little bit, you'll be okay. If you've done nothing, you'll be suffering big time. So the same scenario is going to happen. So, okay, don't do anything and see what effect it has on all the work you've done up to that period that you've built this bank of percentage of fitness. You might start the. You know, if we used an example, your fitness line was at 60 when you got to that rest period and when you come out of it because you've done no training, it was now at 45. It might have taken you six weeks to get to 60. It's taking you two weeks to get down to 45 by doing nothing. So therefore you're already starting. You're going to spend another probably three weeks, two weeks getting back to 60. So that's a five week period out of your block before you actually resume where you stopped. That's a really good point to make to people and they think, oh, I didn't realize that was going to happen. So, yeah, just pointing out things that that'll make them make better decisions based on how they feel and what their goals are and, you know, really where they're at mentally as well as physically.

Seems to be a balance both ways. You know, you don't want to do too much, but you definitely don't want to punish yourself or make it harder on yourself in the new year by doing too little. And I suppose the nature of the question when you say how do you get the most out of the holiday period is it can actually be a bit of a toxic mindset because when you're aiming to get the most out of it, there's already a bit of pressure around the period to try and maximize it. When just what you talk. You know a lot about balance on this podcast and it comes up very often, you know, making sure you're spending quality time with your family. And obviously if you've got lucky enough to get time off work, then that's going to help your balance over the period with your training. But if you're just focused on trying to get the most out of the training, then you're not going to be able to enjoy those other two things, are you?

Yeah. And also a topic that we don't talk about much is if people have had a really average training period into their holiday period. And for those people it's a really good opportunity to catch up a bit. And I don't mean go out and flog yourself. And at no stage are we saying that that that's what you should be doing training in this period flat out the whole time. Keep the balance, keep the focus, be accountable for what the program's offering you. But do the extra stuff if you feel like you're behind. Doing the extra stuff at an easy tempo is still going to improve your fitness number. Once you understand that aerobic training is really essential for the whole program and the bigger the base of aerobic training you have, the better athlete you're going to be. So the reason we have limited time during the week is principally because we don't have the time because of our schedules. If we did, if we were full time professionals we would train more than that but you know, not a great deal more, but we would train more. And that's the difference between someone who's full time and someone who's, you know, family, job and other stressors. You know, they're not, if they had the same program as a professional that they could possibly improve another 20, 25%. So there is a fine balance between understanding that the sessions are short during the week because we're trying to stop you from fatiguing to the extreme but also because it's just a time thing. We often say if you've got more time, add more time onto the warm down.

So some a specific situation based on what you said before about think about your goals that are coming up. So for the people and we have athletes that are doing Geelong, we have athletes that are doing some of the two XU races in Victoria here some athletes have races Jan Feb. March and then even up to the point of, you know, Port Mac Ironman in May. Our athletes are on pretty specific blocks from now until there. You know, the training is mapped out that they do their blocks of training with testing weeks in between and you don't really want to mess with that because it's got them to peak and then taper into their big A race. So if you start messing with weeks now, it stuffs up your program later down the track. So some of our athletes are actually left with a testing week in the Christmas New Year week. And I think Christmas falls on a Friday this year and New Year's, a Wednesday or something. And we will often do a run time trial or a bike time trial on those days. So how do you recommend athletes go about that when they've got testing on some of those days that are quite hard to balance socially?

Yeah, and it's a great question. And it happens every year, so we're quite used to it. So you know, you've just got to move those sessions around and you know, the testing week is not just the testing week. The testing week is recovery. And you know, if your first week of holidays falls on a recovery week, it is okay to extend your two week block into three. That's absolutely fine. But understand that you are going to grow the fatigue. So the next week you can still do volume duration, but the intensity has to be in line with the program. So you know, it's almost like a week where oh, this is okay, there's no intensity. But I can still train, train to my heart's content. I can swim comfortably, you know, if I'm at a beach, I can swim in the ocean every day if I wanted to. I can go for easy rides all day if I wanted to. You know, I can go wherever I want, I can run wherever I want. It's all just easy. And there's no intensity. So. So there's really no scenario where you can't fit the program in. So moving the testing days is obvious and we generally spread them out to a Monday, Wednesday and a Friday. So you could just push them to do the swim in the morning, do the ride in the afternoon and do the run the next day. And then you're already got that out of the way after you've had your rest period beforehand and then you can resume straight away in your holiday period. So there's so many options available that will enable you to keep true to the program.

What was your personal tradition, Christmas Day?

Well, as you know growing up, we live in the Dandenongs in Belgrave and we would always go to Warigal, to my parents house for our Christmas, which was a great day with the huge family that we had, five brothers and sisters with all their kids or your cousins. So I would always ride to Warrigal. We would have Christmas here and then pack up and I would ride to Warrigal and half the time I was trying to beat you guys. You were in the car and knowing that your mum was going to procrastinate. Getting four children in the car was not easy. So. And all the presents and everything in the food, so. So that was my goal. Get up, have your, have Christmas with you and then ride to, to, to Warrigal, which is, which is a fun thing. But as we stopped going to Warrigal over the years, I just had a one hour circuit that I would ride to Emerald and back and try and do a time trial. Which sounds pretty crazy, but yeah, that was my go to ride. And I know you had some things that you like to do with your brothers and sisters.

Yeah. And the reason I brought it up is because, you know, a lot of people would think it's crazy to do a big ride on Christmas Day or a time trial. And I guess it depends on what your normal is because for you it's just something you love to do in the morning and it's, you could fit it in, you know, with the family. And there's an Internet meme that goes around every year. It says, you know, my worst nightmare is becoming one of those families that goes for a run on for fun on Christmas morning. And the for fun is in quotation marks. And I just laugh whenever I see it because that is exactly our family. And we would get up and open presents and then all the siblings and mum would go for a run together and you'd probably go for a ride. And that's just because we enjoy it. And for some people that's crazy. But I guess most athletes listening to this and triathletes, you know, they get called crazy all the time for the type of training they do at, you know, if you love it, you have no problem doing it on Christmas Day. And I guess that was the main point of why I was asking because especially if a test falls on New Year's Eve or New Year's Day, you know, a lot of people would prefer to do other things, but if, you know, if you've got a goal and you're, you're really committed to your training program, you'll have no problem doing your test on New Year's Eve or New Year's Day.

Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm always saying to people, this is your choice. I, I will always have New Year's and Christmas as no training days if you want. That's in our program, you just move the session. But I always say that I don't expect you to train on Christmas Day. I don't expect you to try on New Year's Day. And people that we're coaching go, oh no, I'm training. I'll fit that in. And so over the years I've just There's always going to be exceptions to every rule, but I've assumed that people didn't want to do that and I thought that we were the outliers. But in fact it's quite normal amongst motivated athletes that, you know, you're not taking the training session extreme. You know, it's an hour session or a 45 minute run.

Yeah.

You know, and it makes you enjoy the lunch better when you've had a little bit of a training session beforehand.

Absolutely.

It's part of the program of the day almost, isn't it?

Yeah. And I personally enjoy all the food on Christmas. I'm not a foodie myself, I enjoy the food. But yeah, you definitely feel sick after. So if you feel a lot better, you know, training on Christmas Day and the day after because it feels like you're not overeating everything. So is there anything else you want to mention with regards to the holiday period? Anything else you think athletes need to know?

Definitely. It's a period where you should mentally take a break from the intensity of your mindset because that intensity of the focus, the motivation, the commitment, the consistency, that's a physical thing as well, but mentally, and you're carrying everything that happens at work. And it's ironic that there's been quite a few occasions where I've looked forward to a holiday period. And I remember one holiday period where we decided we would take all the family, all six of us, to Hamilton island. And you guys had never been on a plane before and, and we saved up for this trip to Hamilton island because normally everywhere we go we drive because six of us is too expensive to fly. So I'd done all this hard work, got all the work out of the way and could not wait to get on the plane with you guys and got up to Hamilton island and just started to get a little bit of a cough and a sore throat and before I knew it I had pneumonia. And for that whole two weeks, I don't know if you remember, I was actually in bed during the whole holiday period. It was almost like my body had shut down. And it really made me really think about how hard my brain was working up to that point. Physically, I was working hard as well, but just getting things done and making sure everything was set so that when I went away for two weeks I didn't have to do any work, but my body just shut down from, I think, sheer exhaustion of getting to the, to the line of going on holidays. And I think, I think you've got to think about that. You've got to make sure that you don't put yourself under pressure in any way during this period. It should be enjoyable. It's there for you to do more training if you want, less, if you want the same, if you want. But you know, there shouldn't be pressure or expectation that you. That you. This is a period to catch up or to do more training. That's not the intent. It's an option for you to do all of that. And that's how we started this podcast. But at the end of the day, there is a mental toll that you carry all year. And when we go on holidays, it's almost like relief that you can have a rest mentally from everything that you have to think about each day. You'd be surprised how much thought goes into the routine that you have. Just trying to get through everything that you've got on your list. Each day is quite taxing, and I think we underestimate that a little bit. So I think it's a great opportunity to really try to enjoy the period with your friends or with your family, depending on who you're traveling with. And if you're staying at home, just, you know, just to be without pressure mentally. And I think that's one of the things. Physically, we do it all. Everybody relaxes physically. But do we really switch off mentally enough so that we come back from our holiday period fresh mentally for work or for the family? But more importantly for your passion, you don't want to come back mentally exhausted. And that would be one of the things that I don't think we think about enough in this preparation of the holiday period.

Perfect. That's a great way to finish. That's it for this episode on the holiday period. On next week's episode, it will be our final episode of the year and we will do the same thing as last year. We're going to review. There's the 12 Lessons of Christmas. We called it the 12 Trivelo Lessons of Christmas. 12 things we've learned from 2020 that we can take into 2021. We did this last year and we found, just reflecting on the year, there were some really powerful and valuable lessons to take. And a lot of people liked that podcast. So going to do the same thing again. And that will be our final episode for the year. So thank you very much for listening. Enjoy your holiday period and we'll see you next week.