How Triathletes Can Swim Minutes Faster

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Gerard Donnelly. So a very big welcome back to the podcast, Brenton Ford from Effortless Swimming. Brenton, this is now, I think makes you the most repeated guest we've ever had. So thank you very much for joining us again.

Oh, thanks for having me. I expect the plaque or the trophy coming very soon, so thank you.

So we want to launch right into the, the main premise of today and the topic which is just the notion of this inevitable swimming plateau that everyone hits. And how do you break through the swimming plateau? Because, you know, improvement in expectations. Improvement expectations in the sport of triathlon seem to be just lower than what you can get in the bike, in the run. And a lot of people just accept that the swim is the swim and once they hit that 2 minute pace or 150 pace or 140 pace, they just stay there for years. And so why do you think so many triathletes get stuck at the same swim pace even after years of training? Is it mindset, is it technique, mechanics or is it something else?

It's usually working on the wrong thing. I think it comes down to working on the wrong thing and maybe not sticking with it for long enough to see a change. So if we look at someone, let's say they're, they've been stuck at two minute pace for, for three years and like, oh, this is my pace, I just simply cannot get faster physically. I, I think, you know, majority of people can, you know, they can go beyond that pace. And so look, it may, it may be a mobility issue. Like maybe physically you can't get into some positions that, that you are required to get faster. But I think for like pretty much everyone, it's just there are things you can do to, to see an increase in speed. So there's a very good chance you might be working on, on the wrong thing. And the wrong thing is possibly something that's a few steps ahead of what you actually need to, to work on. So I will quite often get people come to, to clinics or they'll send videos into me and like, yeah, okay, I can see that, like my catch, my elbow's low and I've been working on my catch and I just, I can't seem to make it any better. But if you look kind of earlier on in the chain of what needs to be worked on. It's like, well, you can't possibly get a good catch because you're firstly lifting and turning really far to get your breath. So you're over rotating, so your arms dropping straight down. And so physically you're not capable of actually getting a good catch on that side because of the breathing. And so we need to really just bring it back to the first order of priorities and, and focus on those, get those right and then build up from there. So I think more often it's a case of just working on the wrong things. And, and typically when people, I mean people watch the videos that I put out and, and I've had a lot of people say, look, it's, I quite often get distracted by working on different things. And like I hear it on podcasts, I see it in videos and like that you can get a lot of really good information there, but it can also just be like the wrong thing for you. And so I think I'm guilty, guilty of it myself as well. Just like you hear a good idea like, okay, that's certainly got to be better than what I'm doing. But if it's not really specific to you, it's not going to change anything.

Do you find that if you give some really good feedback, analysis, which is what you do very well, you get people to send videos to you, analyze it and send it back to them and ask them to work on three major things and you give them drills specific to the things you're looking at. So that's a bit of a quick summary. So do you find that when the athlete comes back maybe six or eight weeks later that they haven't changed anything about what you've asked them to do because they haven't done maybe the drills or they haven't thought about it enough, what are the things they're doing wrong in that period between you giving them the instruction? And it should work, you know, if they, if they. It's like going to the physio with an injury and then the physio gives you all these exercises to do and you go back four weeks later, you haven't done one exercise and you say to the physio, it's not any better, you know, Is that something that you find is prevalent a lot in a lot of the athletes?

Yeah, it certainly is. It's. There's a few things that, that can result in someone not having improved down the track. So one is they either haven't done the, like the exercises or the drills even if it's five or 10 minutes, which is normally what I would prefer prescribed for most swimmers, a little bit in their warm up goes a very long way. So quite often they haven't done the drill or also they, they probably just haven't exaggerated the change enough for it to make a, make a change. And so when we film it at clinics, second filming, I, I quite often ask people to exaggerate what they're trying to see. And whenever they do that I would say 1 in 50 people go too far with the change. Like I'm getting them to exaggerate head position, rotation, whatever it is, one in 50 might actually have gone too far. That were like, okay, you can scale that back a little bit. But the majority of them it's like right, it's right there. It's like, oh, that's really good. But it feels like such a big, big change. And so I, I don't think people get comfortable enough with the exaggerate how much they need to exaggerate the, the change. So more often than not it's that, so that it feels weird. So like this can't be right. And then we don't like to stick with something that feels unnatural or weird and so we just go back to what's normal. So it's just, it's more often that than, than anything. Especially for someone who has say practice the drills that booked in for a follow up filming. Like they've spent the time, they've spent the money working on, I think working on it. But if we don't see a change it's quite often that or it's just like they've tried to focus on three things instead of one. And so if you, I mean I was, I was getting some coaching myself a couple weeks back. I had the coach give me one thing to work on. It was looking really good on video and she said, all right, now I want you to, I want you to focus on your breath, timing and this aspect of your catch. And it fell apart most of the time. Like two is a, you can't do two really when you're swimming.

So.

So I think it's often confusion as well or just too complicated.

What I love about your videos and whenever you're on a podcast is you give such good hope to people about that the improvement is possible. And even just your early answers, someone listening will just go, okay, that actually makes me believe that I can improve. You mentioned something really interesting there with the not enough time dedicated to it. So when there's a change that needs to be made. What is that amount of time in terms of working on it per session as well as is it a six week block that you should expect improvement or 12 weeks where you really should expect that habit to start happening naturally?

So when I first started running clinics 12, 13 years ago, there was a guy who emailed me on a Monday morning, so this is up in Sydney. He attended the clinic on the Sunday, Monday morning he said I did my find a time trial and I was two seconds slower. Like what's going on here? I just attended the clinic and, and then I had someone from that same weekend email me nine or ten weeks later. And she said I was, I was working away at like the technique stuff. My times were the same, nothing much was happening but I thought, look, I'll just stick with it. And then I had this one session where it clicked and she went from, I think it was 140 to 1:34 and she stuck with it from then on. Like it just clicked and she, she stuck at that pace. And I see that as like if you've got the patience to stick with it for 8, 10, 12 weeks, then you're much more likely to see those results. But don't feel like you're wasting your time if you're not getting faster straight away or maybe it doesn't even feel better straight away. Like it just, it might just feel awkward because it's different. So normally and from my own personal experience as well, I think two to three months is pretty typical of how long you should expect it to, to, to take. And I was getting some coaching at the start of the season as well for myself and I got this one cue just about breath timing. My breath was a bit late and what I found there is that it took me, it was like six to eight weeks practicing it in training. The first two races of the season there were glimpses of it, but then it was sort of three, four races in where it really started to, to gel. And yeah, it just takes, just takes quite a bit of time even if it's just one thing. So. But I mean the thing is you're going to be putting the time in anyway when you're going to the pool, might be in twice a week, three times a week, you're going to be there. You may as well just be okay with just working on your technique rather than just trying to get the fitness gains from it. Obviously they're really important. You know, fitness is a big factor, strength is a factor, but you may as well just be focusing on Something technically as well, because you're going to be putting the time in regardless.

You could be sending a message out that it's okay to swim slower, to swim faster eventually. And, and if you stick with the process, that's actually going to be so much better than if you just keep defaulting every time you're under pressure. We'll default to our normal swim stroke, which, which is actually what you're trying to prevent. You're trying to get this new method of swimming technique ingrained into a, into that being a new default swim technique. And I'm doing the same thing. When I'm in the pool and I'm getting tired. I know my thought process has gone out the window. I'm going back to my old stroke and my times go back to what they were. And if I'm not conscious of saying no, I'm going to put up with this, I'm just not going to improve. I'm going to be the same swimmer. And we all keep doing that. And a lot of the time the question I'm going to ask you is, is the fitness causing us our lack of fitness holding the new position or the new entry or the new catch or the new push through phase or the new breathing style, is it that we don't have the fitness to maintain it? That's why we go back to our old form? Is that what's causing us to default to the old way? Is it because we're not fit enough in the water? And how do we manage that?

It can be a number of different things. When we're making a change, we often using different, different muscles or using the, the muscles in a different sequence or in a different way. And so quite often we have to engage more muscles in the beginning of this, of this process as we work on this change in stroke. So I think it can be more tiring and more fatiguing in the early days. Plus you've got to put a bit of mental, like mental effort into it as well. And so the way that we swim right now without thinking like we can sustain that at harder efforts for longer periods of time because we, we don't really need to think about it. Cause we've got that ingrained. And so when we're making that change, we've gotta use that mental energy. We probably have to use more, more of the muscles around the area that we're looking to change until it starts to become subconscious. And so I think it's a, and there's also the element of like we, we don't wanna lose our fitness gain. So we, we're afraid to actually take a little bit of a step back in terms of the times we're holding. So it's, there's a bit of that as well. And I feel that too when I'm sitting there, like, geez, I hate. I don't like being three, four seconds slower than what I'm used to. And I want to just kind of push the effort and not be too concerned about the change. So it's, in a way you just have to know what to expect. I think that's probably the first thing. It's like just if you know that that's probably going to happen, then be okay with it and think long term. Like let's say 12 months down the track. What's my main goal? Is it that I want to be all right? I want to be fit and fast for the next three months or 12 months down the track? Do I want to be five, 10 seconds quicker? So yeah, looking, looking ahead, that, that patience and just knowing that the results will come if you're okay just taking a step back.

Yeah, it's such a great discussion and why we wanted to really go through this because there is this notion of the plateau is there and it's really hard. Whereas what we've already uncovered in the first 10 minutes is that there are so many little things that you could do to push you through. And I think the notion of not wanting to go slow to start with or slowing down to go faster later is so funny because you do know that, and this is exactly what you're talking about, dad. When you just default, you'll be that same swimmer, so you might as well try something different. And the only way you're not going to improve is to not try something different, not to try any one of the things we've already said. Whereas if you try something different, at least you have the opportunity to improve. And if it doesn't work, you'll just default to your normal swim stroke and you'll probably assume the same anyway. But the next part of the plateau I wanted to ask about is often the pattern we see is especially for beginner athletes, they go get their first bit of technique help and they get that first bit of improvement, whether that's 5 seconds per 100 or 15 seconds per hundred. They really make that jump and they get stuck at that next wall because they've worked on some good things, they've got a nice kind of looking catch and pull and stroke and things are on track. Is that Next hurdle any more difficult because that's where people who, especially experienced swimmers and I'm thinking about more experienced triathletes here who have been in the game for maybe years, they've made those progressions really well and now they're stuck at 140. Now they're stuck at 136. Is it a myth that that's a harder barrier to jump over or is it the same principles again?

That's a good question. I, I think the earlier gains can typically be the easier ones because some of the things we need to work on, you can see that much bigger gains as a result obviously because it's, let's, if you're at 2:30 getting down to two minutes, it's 30 seconds. But it's like there's some really easy wins you can do there, like better body position, head position, those sorts of things. It can, it can certainly get a little bit more challenging because it's, there's more nuance to it. Some of the changes are a little bit more refined I think. So the improvements, yeah, can be a little bit more challenging to make, but it doesn't mean you can't make them by, by any means. I think of there's a guy who came in on the weekend for a follow up filming. So he did a clinic in January or Feb, so a couple of months ago and he dropped 15 seconds from his, his hundred pace. Just like his long distance 100 pace. I think he was, I think it was around two minutes. He's down to 145 now and he had just some basic, like some basic stuff where he was swimming, he was crossing over, he was swimming pretty flat. He was really rushing in the stroke. And so we just, you know, we worked on more rotation, good head position, not crossing over, just some of those things. And he improved them really well. Cause I was going through his video the other day and so now what he's got to work on is that he's quite like he's actually swimming a bit too wide. So he's actually overcorrected the change which is like, all right, well that's good. At least you're not doing the same thing. So we need to work on that. We need to get a little bit more streamlined, we need to work on a little bit more rotation. And actually the one thing for him is his breath timing. His breath is very late and so it's kind of throwing the rest of his stroke out. So if he doesn't correct his breath timing, he's unlikely to make many gains from there because that to me, that's like the bottleneck that's holding him back right now. So I think the faster you get, typically there's like there's one, one thing there that can, can be stopping other things from falling into place. So I think it's about really getting that dialed in and figuring out what that one bottleneck is and then just being hyper focused on that one thing for several weeks and then moving on to the. The next thing. So yes, it is harder to get faster, the faster you get, but I think it just means you've got to be more focused on one certain thing. And it can be, it can feel like a challenge to know what that is sometimes, but if you do, you have someone who knows what to look for, look at can make such a big difference. I think so. I don't. Doesn't have to be me. It can be anyone else. But I think, yeah, it's often just that one bottleneck.

Realistically, the. Because the bottleneck is individual to everyone, you can feel like, oh, what is my bottleneck? It can be so complicated. But if you narrowed it down, it's probably one out of, you know, what, eight to 12 main things where it's the catch, the pull, head position, like you just said, Brett, timing of breath, you know, the position of the arms, tram tracks, position of the legs. Like it's. When you actually list them all, there's not that many it could be. So it's going to be one of those ones.

Yeah, that's. It's exactly right. It's like there's nothing that I feel like I haven't seen in with people swimming. And you're right. It's just like you could probably make a bullet point list of 8 to 10 things and it's going to be one of those. Going to be one of those things. But I think, like, it's often the more basic things that are the bottleneck for a lot of people. Like, it's just the basics of all right, good head position, body position and the right kick, the right amount of rotation, breath timing is a big one that's sometimes overlooked. And then obviously you've got the catch and pull and those sorts of things. But yeah, it can really boil down to just a couple of things, really for most people.

This is something I really want you to consider if you feel that some of your athletes are plateauing that much, that you would stop them from training because repeating the same incorrect stroke is nearly as bad as is not training at all. Because you're just reinforcing that. You're not going to create a change by continuing to repeat the same technique that you're trying to get out of. So would it be worth just stopping people from actually training as a swimmer and then just getting them to strip it all back and just do the drills and, and forget about the fitness, forget about the fitness gains that you should be doing in the swim session and really, can you do it that far or. What I'm worried about is people getting new information, understanding what they should be doing. But still they do that in the drills properly and then when they go to swim, they just go back to their own stroke again. They just keep. And they're only practicing the drills properly, but they're not actually. Should you stop people if you see that happening? Would you be stopping them from doing the swim session and, and saying, look, we're just going to have to do drills the whole time. If you're not going to change a stroke, would that be how you would approach it? Or let me hear what you think about that process.

It's a tough one because it depends on what their goals are too. Right. It's like they might have a race in six weeks time or even 12 weeks time. It's like, well, we still need to have that level of fitness there. What's that person willing to put up with as well? A lot of people aren't willing to, to do just technique work for the next two months as well. And, and I like, I understand it as, as well, like you can sometimes just go to the pool because you want to get a good, a good workout and all of that. So it really depends on how. Yeah, on what they've got coming up and, and what they're willing to do for it. But I think it's.

If you had a, put it this way, Brenton, if you had a person who said to you, I don't care about any races that are coming up, I want to change my technique so that I can use this for the rest of my life. How would you structure that next eight weeks? Would you strip it right back like that? If you had the person who's mentally on board, they're willing to give up their next six months of races to swim slower, to swim faster in a year's time, how would you structure their program?

Probably similar to what you said. It's. I would go like, let's. We'll pick one thing to, well, maybe one or two things to kind of focus on for them and just firstly have A look at their stroke, see what they, they need to work on. Would do some drills as part of their warm up, just focusing on one or two things. But then I would certainly give them some, some swimming to do and we would, we might bump up the pace as we're going through it. Cause I wouldn't want them to swim just slow. Like, I want them to have to try and hold that stroke at different paces. But when they're really starting to fall apart, it's like, all right, let's stop there. Because you want them to get to this point of failure in a way it's like, okay, I can feel like things have fallen apart, so let's just take a break and go again. But that would probably be the, would be the approach and it would probably not be in a squad environment. So I think squad is great for fitness social. It's like, I get it a lot from swimming in a squad, but in terms of technique, that is often where things just go out the window, especially in squads where people are pretty competitive. You're pushing off a second behind someone, you're going to have dirty water in front, you're going to have this choppy water and you're just going to be trying to keep, keep the feet. So what I normally recommend there is just try and get one session a week at the pool by yourself with, with hopefully a little bit of space there and work in that calm water. Now you're not going to be racing in probably calm water if you're a triathlete, but if you can't swim well in calm water, you're probably not going to be able to swim well in choppy water. So just try and find some space and time where there's no pressure to be able to get the feeling of what we're trying to do. So yeah, I would really just strip it back. You still want to put in not a lot of K, but you still need to do a bit each session. But yeah, it would just be very technically focused swimming. We'd be doing a bit with stroke count as well. Just trying to maintain stroke count. So, you know, thing if you're going from say 40 strokes to 45 strokes a lap, something's going wrong there. So being aware of that as well and giving them tools to be able to know whether or not they're starting to fall apart. Like, like stroke count, like it's a simple one, but it, it can work really well.

It's such an interesting discussion point around what I think is priorities and we are big Proponents of, you know, every single one of our sessions we ask our athletes to spend, spend, you know, 400 meters, four to eight minutes at least on drills. And, and we would do more, you know, but the athletes often just either skip it cause it's kind of boring, or don't, or don't really focus on it as a priority. And, and I guess with, in terms of thinking about the really interesting point you made there with, you know, the value of swim squad versus the fact that it's really good for not just social but intensity, you know, being really pushed for pace. But the consequence of that is your stroke and go out of the water and you're potentially thrashing around and, and really finding in your week what's the priority here of, of time spent on drills, time spent on your own VO2 sets, time spent on endurance, time spent at swim. If you were to think about, you know, regardless of the athlete preferences, what would be ideal amount of time to spend on swim, stroke and technique as a ratio. The last point I'll make on that is the bike analogy. For example, we know that, you know, straight threshold training would be the most valuable thing. If an athlete could just do that twice a week, you know, an FTP test or a 60 minute threshold session, it would be as valuable as you can get. But it's just so grueling, you know, and it's just not possible to repeat mentally week after week, week. So in a swimming sense, you know, where do you place the value in terms of time spent with drills if, if the athlete didn't have a say in it, what would you be, you know, really allocating to?

Yeah, it makes me think it was like if you, if you have kids, it's like you'd love them to have like meat and three beds every night for dinner. And you know, you can have this perfect diet, but then it's like what are they willing to actually have? So yeah, with a, with a triathlete, let's say you're doing a 3K set, I would look to do probably a K of that as some warmup with technique within that one K. And then the rest of it would be, I mean, some sort of swim set where you're trying to maintain that form. So I don't, I don't think you need to do just a full session of just technique. I really like to incorporate this stuff into, into your normal swimming because that way you really get to like, you're not going to hold perfect technique across a 2K swim. It's just not Gonna, it's just not gonna happen. But you're going to start to notice when does it fall apart. You're going to kind of have to challenge yourself to, to maintain good form, to maintain your speed. And I think it's good to work it out within the normal swimming. So sometimes what I wouldn't suggest though is that I had a swim on the weekend. She said, I train, I do 3K every swim and it's, it's 3 by 1K. And I just, like, I just do 3 by 1K. And that's fine if that's like just good for your mental health or your fitness, whatever it might be. But you're probably not improving much at all because the intervals are too long. You probably need that mental and physical reset after, you know, 100, 200. So just give yourself that little bit of a rest in between to, to be able to just switch back on and, and now that you've got some drills. All right, let's, let's just focus on these things at the start. So it doesn't. Yeah. And what would give someone the biggest bang for Buck? You talked about FTP with, with the cycling, depending on the person. Like, I think one, one longer swim can be really good where it's like maybe some slightly longer intervals. They're just holding an aerobic pace, but then also like a threshold set as well where they are and one where they may be just building and progressing through the set. Like, I love the sets that crescendo towards the end where it's like you, like, you start off comfortable, you're building, you're building, and then at the very end you're like, you're going for it. I think those sort of sessions are so good for, for the average triathlete, provided that it's not getting really messy and their times haven't dropped off. Like, I want them to actually get faster because then they're actually holding good forms. Like that's a sign. It's like if you, yeah, if you're going 1-30s and at the end of the session you're going 1-40s, but you're trying to go 125s, well, something's gone wrong there. So you might need to start out.

Easier than what you think is the theory behind the shorter intervals. And we, you know, if we took the elite Olympic world world champion swimmer and then all the way down to the beginner, you don't see a lot of the, the elite swimmers who train twice a day, who probably swim. I don't know, you'd tell me 5 or 6k in the morning, 5 or 6k at night, that might be more than that. They don't do a lot of long slow, 3x1k reps for a reason. And that's sort of the message I'm trying to get across to the triathletes. Sure we need to do open water swim where we are actually getting used to swimming. But you know, if the analogy of a runner was, you know, you need to do that long endurance run or a bike rider, you need to do that long endurance bike ride so your body gets used to holding that, you know that aerobic capacity. But as a swimmer we know that, that, that the swimmers don't do the same as a bike rider or a marathon runner, they don't do that long slow swim. What's your theory on that? As, as the world's evolved with swimmers over the, over the journey. I know we're looking at people who are swimming Olympics of 50 meters, 100 meters, 200, 400, and of course there is a 1500. But the majority of the events are all around 100, 200 to 400. So is that the reason why we're not doing more long slow training? Or is it, or is it because it doesn't, it's not appropriate for swimming?

I, if you think of the, if you look at the long distance swimmers, like the, the marathon swimmers, I should say like they're 10k at the Olympics, they, they will do longer intervals but like again very rarely are they doing like, yeah, 1k intervals. It's like, and I think part, part of it is just boredom. It's like if you, if you don't get that, that reset after say 400, it's like, it's, it's quite boring and it's easy to switch off and then your technique can start to, to fall apart a bit. I think part of it is, is, is that. And also just the monotony of it too, where if it is, if it is 1k intervals and you're doing an 8k set, like it's just, it goes so much quicker if you break it down into shorter ones. There's mult, there's different reasons why they, they do it. But I, I personally think a lot of it is just you do start to switch off if you're going for too, too long. And when you start to switch off, technique falls apart. You might be fatiguing a bit quicker as well. So even that 10, 15 seconds at the wall after a 400 and you go into the next 400. That can make a world of difference to how you're swimming. So it's yeah, to break it up, break up a boring session. It's to, to get that rest and, and recovery. I see like sometimes with the marathon, marathon swimmers, like the 20k, 30k, your English Channel swimmers, if they have to do a lot, they will sometimes break it into like 1k intervals, even 1500 intervals just to get through the miles, sometimes just to get through the K's. But I think in terms of performance, yeah, it's normally shorter. So yeah. And I think of myself when I did one marathon swim which was 20k and it was very hard doing 1km like intervals. I might do 1k swim, 1k pool boy, 1k pool boy paddles and maybe repeat that twice or three times. But my God, it just goes so slow. Yeah, right. Yeah. Even if it's the same distance, it just goes so slow.

It takes a certain type of insanity to commit to a 20k marathon swim. How was it?

That's for the most part enjoyable apart from getting really cold. I just don't do it for cold. So English Channel is not on my list. And yeah, I'd put on a bit more fat next time, but I had a friend who did the English Channel and he put on 15 kilos for the swim and he starts and taking it off 10 years later.

So yeah.

That'S put me off.

Yeah. Everything is context dependent though. And a example of where a 3x1k is quite appropriate and we do with our athletes is for the Ironman athletes who. And especially a lot of beginner athletes who have never swum that kind of volume. They just do need to experience 3x1k in the open water and get a feel for that. So that, you know, the 3.8 K in the Ironman is not a shock. And that can be broken down to 6 by 500. But that is appropriate there. And I think that's important for the athletes to realize is that, yeah, not there's no blanket rules. That's why we're having this conversation. But I did really like your kind of ratio of, you know, in a 3K set, almost a K of drills and 2K of a set. That's good, good to think about. But again, it is always context dependent on. On where the athlete's at and, and what their race is.

Absolutely. And that's the. Like I had swimming at on the weekend at a clinic. She said, oh, my last coach told me to. Was it like that? I should sort of cross my legs in my kick and do something else. And I'm thinking like, well, that's not what I'd, I'd suggest for you right now. But like, possibly at the time when he was coaching you, like that might have been appropriate. It's like, I'm not going to say, although he's wrong. It's like, well, he saw what he saw and he gave the advice he gave probably for, you know, for a good reason. So it's all context dependent. So. Yeah, yeah. If you're saying, oh, I heard you should never do more than 400 meters, it's like, well, yeah, yeah, you might need to.

Yeah, yeah.

Just, just on, on the. Probably a topic that a lot of the listeners would like to hear your opinion on the athletes in the world pro tour level in triathlon. You know, we've watched Lionel and, and Sam Long really struggle at the back of the, you know, the fast swimmers of this, this generation who are incredibly good swimmers. They're just below Olympic level almost and yet they can still ride and run. It's gone are the days where you were just a swimmer and you couldn't ride or run. Now, now a lot of these top triathletes can do it all there. But Lionel and Sam haven't grown up as, as squad swimmers. And I'm just using them as two examples. There are hundreds of other pros out there who are struggling just as much as these two guys. But because these guys are in the, in the, in the news a lot more than the others, it sort of means more to people to hear your opinion on this. Is it because they haven't grown up in squad swimming and that they've come to the sport late that it takes so much longer time for them to actually get faster? And let's be fair, they're not slow. They're already swimming 110s, 115s in pool one, 120s and they were 130s, 140s when they first started. And, and you know, but the guys at the front are now swimming 105s in their, in their, their sessions and you know, one to 105s and leaving on the 110 or leaving on the 120. So what is it that's, you know, with the swimming compared to as a runner or a rider? It takes so much longer to actually get to the level where you're wanting to get to.

Yeah, it's with the level of swimming now, especially in the pto, it's like these guys stays so quick like they are just the levels really, really stepped up there. So I think that gap shows even, even more for that sort of level of racing. And, and it absolutely, it's harder, it's absolutely hard if you haven't grown up swimming and look, you may not get to that, that same level of the very best triathlon swimmers in the, in the world because as you said, they're like, you know, they're almost off, just off Olympic standard for, for swimming. Like they're just, they're swimming very, very well. But I think a trap that people sometimes get caught in is that they're not, they're, they're worried about losing the fitness gains by taking that step back, that they never fully commit to the changes in their stroke that they, they don't want to, they don't want to get to race season and not feel like they've done the same amount of work. Even though like aerobically they're probably, they're just so fit anyway, strength wise they look probably pretty similar in terms of their, their swim strength. So I, I think it's, it can be a trap that they sometimes just get, get caught in feeling like they haven't done the, the work in the pool and just smash themselves in the, in the pool, but swimming so technical that I, I, I think for the majority of them they're just better off being willing to take that step back and getting beaten in training by their, their training buddy because they know that they're, they're working on their technique and because when you get in that competitive environment, bit of ego flies around and you know, you don't, you don't, you don't want to be that guy who's like, well I'm five seconds behind when I used to beat this guy next to me, like, I know I'm better than that. So it's very easy to get caught in that trap. So that, for those high level guys, I think that's, that's a big factor. And I mean even for your age grouper, you know, we, we've got egos as well. We want to beat the person who, you know, who's nipping it out heels. So yeah, it's, it just takes a lot, I think, to be willing to take that step back. And it's, it's a tough one because the thing is it's not guaranteed either. It's like if you take that step back and well, you haven't really changed your stroke and you're not swinging faster and maybe you have lost a little Bit of fitness, like, well, that was a waste of time. So it is a little bit of a roll of the dice and you have to trust the process. You have to trust what you're working on. So yeah, it is a gamble at the end of the day, but I think for a lot of people it's a gamble that is worth taking.

That's that mindset element that I think is the last piece of the puzzle to come into it. And that was the whole purpose of this topic, is to not let any mental barriers like you're saying, and that ego of potentially being unwilling to go slower, to go faster and try something new can get in the way. But, but what is your advice around. Yeah, athletes who just, it's a, it's a warranted fear to be like, I don't want to go backwards, I'm putting the time in, but I, I just feel like my stroke is stuck. What do you, what do you say to get past that mental barrier? Not thinking from a technique or fitness or training perspective?

If you look at, if you look at what the, the options are on either side, you go, all right, well, is, is the way that I'm swimming now, if, is it, if I'm at 140, is it because I'm just, I'm not, I'm not fit enough? Like, what, where can I get to if I just get a little bit fitter and a little bit stronger with my swimming? Like, what's the possibility there, realistically? And it might be, like, it might be a 120 for someone. Maybe they're just not, not very swim fit and they're at 140. But I think realistically for a lot of people it's, it's not the fitness side of it. That's, that's actually holding them back. Like, they, they know it's their technique. They've, they've trained three times a week for the last five years in the pool. Like, it's not a fitness thing, it's a technique thing. So if you can objectively take a look at it as an outsider and determine what's actually holding you back and then just go after that thing, work on changing that thing that, that is holding you back and just know that it is a bit of a gamble to work on it. But like long term, what's, like really, what's the, what's that going to look like? Maybe I do get a little bit slower initially. Maybe I take this gamble and I don't race quite as well this season. That, that may Happen. But yeah, at the end of the day it's probably more technique that's holding you back. If you have been at the same pace for year after year.

And we see that in the data and you know, we really agree with what you've just said then because one of the things we're often looking at in Sims training sessions is how, what's the gap between your, you know, your threshold work and your, and your hard efforts compared to your endurance efforts. And so often an athlete is swimming 142s for their 100 sets, but then in their 4 by 400 they're swimming 144s. You know, the cap is so small and you go okay, well you've got fitness, you just, your techniques probably stopping you from going faster. Whereas if a Swimmer could swim 130 in their 100 sets, but when they go to an 800 meter effort, it goes to 150, you go, oh, there's probably a bit of a fitness gap there. It's. You agree with that?

Yeah, that's a great way of, well, yeah, of identifying it. Right. It's like you can see that you, you can't get faster than a 142, but you can hold 144 all day. Well that's, that's a very clear, clear sign. So that's, that's a good way of analyzing it. And what do you guys do for testing their, well testing their swim fitness or swim speed? What are your go to tests?

Uh, quite. It's a very similar principle to, to cycling running it. It depends so much on the race goal and you know, set the same way that we do 20 minute FTP tests regularly in on an indoor trainer. That doesn't help necessarily inform us of, of the most accurate data for an Ironman race or a half Ironman, but we do it regularly just have that comparison. So we, we do regular pool tests whether it's one case for him at 1.5 K or, or longer depending on the athlete. But then they need to go test in the open water as well and show us what they can do in a wetsuit. And especially as you get closer to race day and that becomes difficult depending on where you live and the time of the season. But it's the same principle. It's like translating the same way on a bike. You've got to get off the trainer and go out and do a 20 minute FTP test outside. You go out, gotta go out and do a 60k time trial or a 90k time trial free half Ironman. The same principle applies for your open water stuff. And it's not just a time trial. It's go do your 2 by 1k efforts or 4 by 500 in the open water and show us what you're holding there. And that informs us how well you're translating your pool stuff to your open water stuff.

Yeah, that's such a, such a big one with the pool versus open water. I know we've talked about that on previous podcasts, but it's. That can be quite eye opening for someone who's never tested in the open water. They're like, all right, I can hold 145 in the pool and on race day it might be 155. And they're like, well, what's, like what's going on? Yeah, and yeah, so it's good to see that before you race and then try and figure out whether it's like, well, was it bad conditions? Was it because I just don't swim as well in my wetsuit? Like, am I shortening up? Like, am I just going off course? Like, why am I slower? And just making sure you figure that out before race day.

It's interesting, isn't it? We do have a lot of athletes who don't actually swim in the open water at all except for race day, and they do come back with that, oh, I'm so confused why I'm swimming so much slower. And every example you just gave is probably contributing to that result. But one of the things I say to them is when you're in the squad all the time, you're swimming in moving water, you know, and you're getting this inflated pace because you're drafting the whole time and you need to do some swimming. As you said, in, in still water, where you're breaking, breaking the surface as the number one. The only person in the squad who's, who's really swimming properly is the person at the front of the line who's getting to break the water. Um, and so that's more realistic pace, isn't it, that, that you can compare and you just can't compare if you're sitting fourth or fifth swimmer in that pace line and expect that that's the time you'll be able to do outside. And, and I have a lot of trouble convincing people you understand what I'm saying. Do you have that same problem with a lot of your athletes?

Yeah. So many people think they are faster than they really are because they're used to swimming behind other, other people. And you can save up to 30% of your effort when you are drafting, especially behind multiple people. So I can, yeah, people can think they're swimming so much faster than they really are, but it's like, it's like playing gran Turismo on PlayStation and then getting in a real car and thinking you can, you know, drive around a racetrack the same way. So it's not, it's not the same. You've got to, like, you've got to get out into the real world and just, and just see where you're, where you're really at there. So I think certainly it's, that's a big way that people convince themselves that they're swimming faster than what they are. So if they can do, say, a time trial without being on anyone's feet like that, then you've got still water, you get a much better sense. And then the open water, where conditions can change and it's choppy and it's not smooth, that can. And you don't have the turns to get the extra speed. And sometimes a little bit of rest as well like that can change the pace that you're actually swimming too. So it's, it's, it's worth getting that, getting that data.

We see so often on the bike that the trend is more beginner athletes are more efficient on the trainer because they've got this assistance in helping them pedal efficiently. And when they try and translate that power outdoors, they can hold better power indoors and outdoors. And we find with more experienced athletes, they're actually better at holding. They can push more power outdoors and indoors, they're better at, at pushing against the resistance of the road. And it's an interesting phenomenon that that would happen. And so it's funny with swimming as well, athletes tend to show some variability in summer. It's just slower in the pool. And once they chuck a wetsuit on and for. Then they get some buoyancy, it really improves their stroke. And for others, they get out in the open water and they're so much worse than in the pool. So what are the common reasons or trends you see about those differences?

That's interesting. Yeah, in some ways, in some ways it's actually, there are some similarities there between, say, beginner and more experienced cyclists. So for some swimmers, if they have really bad body position, the wetsuit lifts them up and they can be, can be faster. But it makes me realize, was what you said there, that with a lot of people who do go from the pool to the open water, who are less experienced swimmers, they sometimes have a harder time holding their pool pace in the, in the open water. And I think. And, but the more experienced swimmers are typically a little bit quicker than they would be in the pool. And this is with a wetsuit on as well. And I think one of the reasons for that is like they, they're obviously more proficient in being able to kind of hold. It's like pushing against the road or the resistance from that. It's like similar in the pool. It's in the open water, more experienced swimmers are just, they can really increase their stroke rate and they can get a better grip in the open water and they can maintain their line and their rhythm when they're siding. Like, it's just. Yeah, that experience counts for a lot and I, I see the same thing. That's so, that's interesting. A bit of a realization there. So.

Yeah, yeah. And we have had, we have had a big discussion on, on open water swimming and you can listen to an old episode on that, but there is so many elements to it that are just different to the ball. Like the siding, you know, that can throw anyone's stroke completely out of whack. Just, just that one factor.

Yeah, that's right. And you could be doing 2.2K for your 1.9K Ironman swim. And, and that's six. Could be six minutes where you're going slower. So yeah, just that one factor alone is worth, worth getting. Right.

I love that you said that. Cause it's probably our, our core message to triathletes when thinking about the race is, you know, you being, being not swimming that 800, 100 meters counts for a lot because if you run an extra a hundred meters, it's, it's, it's Potentially you're losing 20 seconds, but if you swim an extra, it could be. You could be losing two minutes in this, in the swim. So it's something really to get right. Um, before we go on to. I kind of wanted to finish off with some, some quick rapid fire myth busting questions to see your opinion on. But anything on these last topics, dad, on. On the Plateau or, or these last topics that you wanted to ask before we. We go to this final segment?

No, I've loved our conversation so far. I think, I think the listener should get the gist now that, you know, it's just not about being fitter in the water. It's all about doing both. Having good technique and, and practic swimming rather than practicing imperfect swimming will be the thing that you should be actually aiming for as a, as an athlete when you're training. But yeah, I'm really keen to hear some of the myth busting questions that you've got lined up to see what Brenton's answers are to this. It's always good to hear his version of what he sees as the important things. And let's get this straight. You are one of the experts in the field around the world and people should be really honing in on the answers to these questions.

And as a preface for this question, these questions, you know, some of these might seem really obvious to some people and some people will have never heard that answer before. So I think it's really important to, you know, people are coming from all different contexts and backgrounds of education with swimming. So yeah, we want to ask away. So first one, you need a high stroke rate to swim fast. True or false?

False.

Adam, quickly. Why?

It's a combination of stroke length and stroke rate. So you can have long strokes and a lower stroke.

Right.

If to swim fast as. As well.

Yeah. More K's or time in the pool always equals more speed. Yes or no?

No.

I think we. I think we've got exactly why. But it's.

We would have. We would have just negated our whole podcast.

Yeah. Yeah. This is funny as well. Drills are a waste of time for experienced swimmers and triathletes and thinking with pros like this as well.

No, they're not. Yeah, they're not a waste of time and can sometimes be even. Can sometimes be even more important because it can help them still work on the. The changes that they need to.

Need to make. Kicking is almost irrelevant for triathletes. They should save their legs.

Ah, it. Oh, yeah. Almost. Almost. Yes. It's like if you look, if your legs aren't doing the right thing, like it can really throw off the front end. But you don't need to be kicking hard at all to swim well or you don't need to be kicking a lot. So it's like if your legs are doing the wrong thing, it can completely stuff you up, but it only provides probably 5 to 10% of propulsion for most triathletes. If that.

So, yeah, awesome answer. And I'm really realizing now, reading some of these, that I didn't expect the conversation to necessarily go the way it did. And we've answered.

Sorry, Sorry.

This is. This is me. So wetsuits fix bad technique. Reality or myth? Myth. Yeah.

It can help improve some things, but it's not a magic wand by any stretch.

It's too late to fix your swim if you started as an Adult.

Sure.

False.

You can. Yeah, obviously you can improve.

You touched on this before, but I'm interested to hear the slight explanation. You should hold the same technique at easy versus threshold assets. Is that realistic?

Not. Doesn't. No, not necessarily. But it can depending on the, on the person. So. Yeah.

Yeah, go on. Yeah.

I was just going to say like, if you look at someone like Katie Ledecky, if she's swimming easy, she's fairly even, she's fairly balanced when she goes fast. When she's racing, she has more of this sort of gallop stroke. And so some people, like, they'll, they'll change their stroke that way, whereas other people are pretty consistent, no matter the speed. So it just depends on the person.

I'm curious about, you know, potentially thinking about changing your stroke between pool and open water. Would you. You know, especially when it's a little bit choppy, like, you know, you definitely can find that trying to get on top of the water and over it and, and that's okay for traffic to think about if, if they experience those conditions.

Yeah, quite often people will be better off with a bit more of that uneven or unevenly uneven stroke or gallop stroke where you're sort of quicker on one side, longer on the other side. That tends to lend itself pretty well to open water, especially with a wetsuit. Just to help kind of. Yeah. Get over. Over the top of the water.

And dad chime in with any, any thoughts you have in these. And. And I think you were laughing because anytime you. We do this, dad hates these kind of questions because every, every answer is a good coach would say, well, it depends, but. But you still want to get some. Yes, that's right. Thoughts on it.

Anyway, I think you're doing a great job, Breton, because we wouldn't have got past question three with me.

Couple more.

Couple more to go. So there is a agreed preferred breath rate and breath first stroke rate. Is that true?

No, no. It depends on the person. Depends what your stroke rate is like. If you've got a high stroke rate, you could breathe every three. You'd be getting the same amount of air as someone with a lower stroke rate breathing every two and just depends what you. What you prefer.

Last one. You should never swim with bad form. Is there ever a place for just getting it done, even if it's not pretty?

To a certain extent, yes. But whenever you are really pushing it, your technique will begin to fall apart. But you don't want to continue that for too long and really train that. That bad habit. But I Think it is good to get to that point and be able to push yourself there as it does start to break down, because that's kind of a necessary requirement for people who are looking to compete at a certain level.

Just on that question, I'd love to hear your answer. Brenton, the minute you feel like you've lost form, should you take a break in a training session, give yourself 20 or 30 seconds and then reset and go again?

If it's within an interval, I think let's say you're doing like a 300 and you're starting to push it. You might start to fall apart halfway through. It can finish off that interval, Try to get back on top of it. Try and just make that switch. Maybe you back off the pace a bit so you don't necessarily have to go, hang on, stop. All right, I'm going to. I can't continue any further. Try and just correct it the next stroke or the next lap. But if it's just like repeatedly just falling apart, you having one of those sessions, then you might just want to change what you're doing.

Awesome. That's. Yeah. Great answers all around. A really good way to finish. Yeah, you did really well there to dispel some of them. And the purpose of asking some of those questions was really just to help any listener gain some clarity on some. It happens in every discipline. There's just some common things. And the cadence, one, you know, we get that in running all the time. Like, I got told I need to have a 175 or 185 RPM, you know, with cadence. And it's just not true. Rather, it's true in certain contexts. But yeah, we just want people to avoid falling into the trap of, you know, blatant rules. Because as with everything, it's never, it's rarely ever that black and white.

Yeah, that's right. And as I said, it depends on the, on the person and the context and, and what they're. What they're training for. But yeah, hopefully people have been able to get something from, from this podcast where even if it is a little bit of hope that they can get better. Because I, I see it all the time. I mean, you see it all the time with people that you're coaching. It's like they maybe, maybe done a six hour half ironman and that might have got down to sub five. And it's like you can absolutely get. Get better at anything you put your time and your attention to. And your focus on. And swimming is. Is no different. Might be A little bit harder in terms of, rather than just putting the effort in, you've really got to put the focus on it as well, on the technique. But it's absolutely possible to get quicker also.

Really love that side of swimming that it, it is such a technique thing. I think that's really encouraging because you, you would look at some Olympic swimmers or the top level, you know, pro triathletes or even the top level age group athletes who are 1 20s and go, Geez, that gap seems so far away in terms of the training. Um, but to know that it's really a technique thing means it's possible for anyone, you know, anyone can improve their technique, which is really encouraging.

Yeah, that's exactly right. It's not just brute strength or you know, height or anything like that. Like it's, yeah, it's almost like a, you know, a secret, like a card that you've got in your back pocket for anyone by, by. And you can play it at any time, but just by, by working on it.

Yeah. Anything last from you, dad?

No, I loved it. And look, I, I still remember when I used to take you guys to squad training when you were, you know, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age and, and I'd see a lot of the big guys come into the pool after they've been in the gym and they were huge muscly guys and you know, flexing their muscles and, and you had, you know, seven, eight year old kids just flying past them in the water with, you know, no muscle development, no strength, but super efficient swimmers as a, as an eight year old, it just used to make me laugh the whole time these guys are just powering through the water with just brute force with no technique and I think that that epitomizes the beginner swimmer. You know, they just feel like they've got to brutalize the water to get through it. And it couldn't be further from the truth. It's, it's, it's a such a technical sport that if you don't get that right, you are going to be so frustrated for the, for a long time. So I've loved the fact that you're really pushing the technique and you know, just throwing more time at things is great, but not always going to get the right results. And I think you've really made that clear today, which I really appreciate.

Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I love chatting about this stuff and especially with you guys and I appreciate you having so many people come to our clinics and me being able to work with them. It's. Yeah, it's something I really enjoy doing. And, yeah, especially with adults, because they can come in thinking, well, look, I don't. Can I actually get any better? I'm just frustrated with it. It's annoying. And I don't love the swimming, but I think when you see improvement, that is when you begin to enjoy something, when you can see that, how you can get better. So, yeah, that's. That's possible for everyone. So thank you for having me on.

And your. Your coaching is aptly named effortless swimming, which is exactly what we're talking about. It's supposed to be more effortless and not brute force. So that's a great way to finish. So, Brenton. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming on again. We know that our listeners will get a lot of encouragement from it, and we hope we can help anyone out there understand that you can break through a plateau and it is possible and give that hope. So thanks again and thank you to everyone that was listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.