Ironman Doctor Pushes Himself To Heart Failure [Part 2]

Welcome to another episode of the Get Fast podcast brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined as always, by your hosts, Australian ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Gerard Donnelly. And I, and Jordan Donnelly.

I just never have felt defined by my ability to perform on the sporting field. I finished the 24 hour and I had. I was essentially in heart failure. And I've never really thought about this way before, but I actually had achieved that finding my limit.

You know, this is part two of our interview. If you haven't listened to part one, we recommend you go back and listen to it. In part two. We're about to dive deep into Mitch's 12 and 24 hour world record attempts. That's right. Mitch rode for 12 hours and 24 hours on separate occasions, attempting to break the world record for the longest distance ridden over that time period. It is an epic story. We can't wait for you to hear it. But Giant, I mean, moving on to the 12 and 24 hour records, Giant had a big part in being part of the team that supported you in that process. So we do want to dive deep into these two records. And it kind of sounds funny to skim over the 12 hour record to go to the 24 hour one because it's bigger. But both of them were just as incredible as each other. I don't think that people can really understand. It just sounds like an extreme number. And it's almost like once you get to a million dollars, $10 million doesn't really sound like that much more. But to ride 37 kilometers, most people couldn't do that. Couldn't hold that 37.3 or whatever it was for people couldn't do that for an hour, let alone, you know, a pro rider that might hold it for three or four or something ridiculous, like six hours. And then you think, okay, it would be absolutely extreme for someone to hold that for 12 hours. And then you do it for a full 24 hour day.

I mean, before you answer this, Mitch, I remember seeing you sit down at the chair at the end of the 12 hour and the look on your face. And I remember what you said, staring straight at the crowd. And I think you eyeballed me saying, don't ever let me do that thing again. That is so not what I want to ever do again. And here you are 12 months later, lining up to do it not only once, but double. So the experience of the 12 hour, look, there Must have been some dark, dark periods in there that, you know, it's easy to sit back and say, oh yeah, it was tough, it was, it was hard. But, but seriously, were there times in the 12 hour, I know in the 24 hour when you were really struggling, but the 12 hour, let's just go one step at a time here. How, how bad did it feel at times and what was your mindset around that?

Look, the, the 12 hour was going to be a stepping stone to the 24 hour, right until the point that I did the 12 hour because essentially, you know, I'd seen drew do the 24 hour record attempt and I thought, I think I could do a better job than that at logistics and track selection and blah, blah. You know, I'd seen that he'd gone on a road bike as well as a time trial bike because he'd back and got it too uncomfortable. And I thought, look, I need some experience before I go off and do a 24 hour world record. So I actually, first up, I went down for nine hours down on that crit course on a public holiday weekend where I actually got ruddy to turn up with a stop slow sign on the dangerous corner. And actually I did nine hours of laps to see whether I feel like it. Ride the world record.

That's fantastic. That's a good start. We were going to ask that question, what preparation did you do to get yourself ready for a 12 and let alone 24?

Yeah, well, this is the thing that I knew that, you know, I already knew I was good at nine hours of exercise and I could be world class at nine hours. It was just a matter of then thinking, well, this is a totally different game doing just cycling. And I wanted to make, I wanted, I was aiming for 500k that 12 hours. And so it actually, the experience I knew would be instructive doing the 12 hour about how to then potentially prepare for a 24 hour tilt. And it actually was incredibly important. It was, you know, those three stepping stones of 9, 12, 24. If I had just done a 24 hour, I actually don't think I would have been able to do it. I would have mucked something up. As far as the mental. I wasn't as mentally prepared for the 12 hour as I was the 24. So yet when I finished the 12 hour, what I hadn't anticipated was, well, how hard it is to ride at 42ks an hour for 12 hours. It's fucking hard. I wasn't sure if we could clear on this, but it was we have.

Some good descriptions and that does it.

Yeah, it was absolutely like, it was like applying paint stripper in your bloodstream for the last four hours and the, and the additional mental pressure of. Well for starters I said I'd do it and so I was bonded to finishing the 12 hours. I was also doing it for the cause of, you know, for Craig. So first of all who you know, had passed away and I was raising money for his family and you know, his family were on the course but it was just more that I was, I hadn't, I was bonded to finishing something so incredibly painful. And I actually could say that from an intensity perspective the 24 hour look. And I know it's kind of hard because you're kind of delirious and all up 6 hours in the 24 hour anyway, but I hadn't understood that it would be so incredibly difficult. So you know, got to the finish and at 12 I was always so surprised at how toxic I felt and in fact I actually ended up insomniac for probably the best part of a month after that, you know, I couldn't sleep and the psychiatrist who I was, I saw afterwards or I'd been seeing him for depression before that, you know, he, he thought I had delirium. So essentially yeah, I, I was, yeah, I was in a, absolutely in a world of mental habit that I hadn't anticipated having. So yeah, brutal. So I was much better prepared for the 24 hours.

Much, much better. That's what's good about the way you've gone about it is, you know, people have really massive goals that are probably almost unreachable for everyday, you know, riders but to pick a 24 hour and not do something prior six, nine. I mean you've already had experience as, as a triathlete to you know, doing 30 times a nine under hour day. So you've got that under your belt and you've gone out and done a nine hour pre, a 12 hour. So your preparation is, is something that really needs to be mentioned and you've really gone about it in a way that's methodical and it sort of is indicative of the way you think about things and set goals. What?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so sorry Jordan. So what I was trying, trying to do was gain enough experience and so the things that I put in place after the 12 hour work. Well, I went and saw my psychiatrist once a month for the 12 month let in because we weren't talking about my depression anymore. We're actually, we talked about performance because you Know, he's got, his specialty is post traumatic stress disorder. And you know, we Talked about the 12 hour for quite some time. But also, you know, we put in preventative measures for how I would be mentally prepared to do the 24. And then, you know, actually physically and mentally the other things that I did were, well, I did some ultra long rides, which you'd expect. So, you know, my Saturdays became legendary.

I can tell you.

Legendary. Yeah, they were pretty legendary.

I sat behind you for about 10 minutes one day and you were doing 40Ks an hour and you'd already done 480K that day.

Silly training days but. And you know, like I anticipated that the overnight would be difficult. So you know, say one night I'd, I'd been at work all I trained on the Friday morning, I'd worked all day, got home and then went to bed for an hour, but then got up and rode from 11 o' clock at night until 10 o' clock the next morning. And you know, it's like these were all ideas that I sort of, I'd simmered on, spoken with Damien about, spoken with the psychologist about and you know, so my mental preparation for the 24 hour was just, it was just vastly superior. And so when things did go wrong, as they ultimately did, then I was able to deal with them and able to come up with, you know, I was prescient enough to come up with solutions on the fly. And it was, it's the 20 years of experience that I had.

Yeah.

Plus the nine and the 12 that added up to it being successful day.

I'm really glad you've gone into that detail because it sets the scene of what we were saying before of. It's hard to comprehend the difference between 12 and 24 hours, but it's literally double. Before we go into that, when you say the 12 hour hurts so bad, yet you've had experience of 39 hour Ironmans, what in comparison, what made it so painful, what made it so hard compared to the Ironmans that you'd been through the same sort of pain?

Well, I mean triathlon, you get the swimmers and warm up.

Swimmers, you'll disagree.

And then realistically, well, you know, I wasn't that good a swimmer but you know, the swim, the changes in mode, you know, triathlon make it, make it manageable, different proposition. Whereas, you know, the concentration, I think it's the concentration required. So I think the course down there that I had with 1.3 K's and anyway, I can't remember exactly, you had to be Focused and in the right gear at every corner I took the same line, you know, I was 300 plus laps and I just had to be diligent and disciplined to be able to hold. You know, I think the average wattage ended up being in the realm of 260 and to be able to hold that and hold your TC position and you know, your inside leg gets a different workout than your outside leg turns and your undercarriage is horrible. You know, they're just. And yeah, and such a high intensity, it's hard to also stomach your nutrition. Whereas in the 24 hour, yeah, the nutritional proposition isn't intensity so much as the duration. So yeah, it's actually just a totally different skill set. 12 and 24 hour, there's some overlap but actually, yeah, you need a totally different skill set. So. And yeah, that's kind of why. Yeah, I think I was very well prepared to do 12 hours because of triathlon. But yeah, nothing in Ironman really prepares you to do the 24 hour. It's a totally different thing.

So after you'd completed the 12 hour, and mind you, 12 hours at 42ks an hour, for those who ride a bike know that doing 20 minutes at 42ks an hour is not that easy to achieve. So to continuously do that round and round for, for that long a time, the intensity of that, it must have taken a toll on you.

It did. Like I actually wasn't sure that I would go on and do the 24 hour that because it just. And also, you know, I had a. You had a baby on the way. I was a bit worried about the physical toll in terms of not just the training but also, I mean I wasn't worried about dying in the 24 hour, but I was worried about the effect that it could have on my body, that it could damage me irreparably, especially from a cardiac perspective. So yeah, know that's why I put in place again, you know, using my medical and scientific brain, was putting in place this team of scientists where we get to publish this paper. But essentially we collected a heap of cardiology data, some blood data, we did scans on the heart, three immediately post and then three weeks post for both the effort and with the help of Dr. Andre Lagersche down at the Baker Institute. So yeah, sort of in part I put that in place too because, you know, I've got an inquiring mind and I wanted to. I knew I was going to do this more than once. I wasn't planning on that. And so yeah, I'll put That in place. And then. Yeah, it also was a bit of an insurance policy that I knew that there would be doctors on site. But if something did go bad, I wanted to make sure that, you know, I had some upcoming family responsibilities and, you know, I didn't want to drop dead riding right around a track. It seemed like a silly thing to do.

The data that you collected and now you've got access to all that, Is there anything there that has worried you from putting your body?

Yeah, absolutely, yes. You know, my heart at the end of the 24 hour was the ejection fraction. So essentially the amount of blood that the ventricle. Ventricles are able to squeeze out had reduced to 30% of its free event. So essentially that's just inflammation, Mitch, is it?

Or.

Well, it's fatigue. Specific fatigue, heart muscle. So basically I finished the 24 hour and I had. I was essentially in heart failure. I wasn't able to lie flat because my lungs were full of fluid. And, yeah, all the enzymes in my heart were sort of at a level where that, you know, Andre and emergency room doctors see in people who've had heart attacks. So, you know, it's not that good for you. Like, you know, I was in mold. Kidney failure. Yeah, it's a. You know, it takes you back to that quote by Mark Allen that, you know, I went to the well one too many times, or, you know, you can only go to the well so many times. And I sort of felt as though that 24 hour really was my last visit to the well from a. Especially from an endurance performance sort of day, because I sort of, you know, and I also did probably what most athletes. And I've never really thought about this way before, but I actually had achieved that finding my limits. You know, you talk about always looking to find your limits, but I think I found it for 12 hours. I certainly found it for 24 hours. And in hindsight, I think I found it in Ironman as well. You know, I don't think I could have done any better. Sure, I might have trained better. You know, the 11th place in Hawaii, you know, I did that with a tibial stress fracture. So, you know, I wound up on crutches after that, after that day, knowing full well that I was going into it with a stressy. And so, yeah, I don't think I'd left any stone unturned. But, yeah, I guess the. The thing that I feel resolved about is that I've found my limits on, you know, and I actually was able to. To push myself to my limits because of the range of experience I had from a scientific, from a nutritional, from a pacing. Yeah, all that stuff fed into me being able to push my body to the mid center. I showed that physiologically that, you know, I was in heart failure. You can't go any harder than that.

So if you had have ridden 884km, what would the response have been?

Well, you know, I guess it's hard to address that as a hypothetical. I think Paul Rice, who's a friend of mine who's a surgeon I work with every Friday in foot and ankle, he looked at the amount that the record for 24 hour had been broken by every year, every time it had been broken, and essentially it only gets broken by between half and 0.7% anyway. A small percentage, not much. And you know, like, early on in the 24 hour, it looked and felt for all money that I was going to ride 920k. But realistically, that's if nothing goes wrong. Like I think I probably could have written 9, 29, 30k if nothing had gone wrong. And, you know, there's some things you just can't control. Like the temperature of the night was so cold, it ended up being, you know, somewhere between 6 and 7 degrees on the track. And I was, you know, I got cold and my gut didn't work properly when it got cold. And, you know, all those little cuts actually make a. Make a huge inroad into, you know, your hypothetical performance. So.

So the barriers. The barriers were certainly there, weren't they? I mean, you started poorly with, you know, mechanical failure. How much did you lose in time there?

Look, I lost probably one and a half minutes. But look, in the scheme of things, that's more frustration than anything else.

So much preparation.

Yeah, yeah, you got to get all these little tiny pulse tenths of a second you're trying to gain, and then you end up doing something silly at the start, but could have cost you the ref. Well, it could have. It didn't. But look, I think I gathered up enough small marginal gain to quote Railsford, that I wasn't going to end up missing the record. Sure, I could have broken it by more if I had had a perfect day. But yeah, look, Jerry, you know, to your point, I was never gonna fail to break it. I know that sounds silly, but I had, you know, Damien actually said to me one day, damien Angus said, you know, have you thought about the possibility that you're not. You can't do it. And it had never crossed my mind. I was always going to do it like it was just. Yeah, I guess there's no sense in even thinking about failing because, you know, I thought I'd crossed enough T's and dotted enough eyes that, yeah, I was a good enough athlete to do it. And I was. And I had enough things in place that I had a good buffer between me and the previous record.

That's fantastic. That is.

That's so I guess, and I think that's probably the way that, you know, I guess that's the way that demarcates me and probably demarcates a good athlete compared to a very good athlete is, you know, indemnifying yourself against poor performance by preparing properly. And I think, you know, if anything, and I know you guys are sort of hearing me loud and clear, if anything demarcates me from just average in triathlon, it's that I sort of have always felt that I've prepared for my events, you know, I guess the best that I possibly can. And I haven't ever done junk miles. You know, I've always had a good mentor in the way I say with Damien. And I even had a mentor when I first came to Melbourne who actually, his name is Jeff Thompson. And yeah, Jeff was instrumental in helping me get into medicine and start my triathlon career. And he set me up with Gary Zimmerman, who's a sports, you know, remains my sports doctor. And it's just all those little collecting people and collecting 1 percenters and holding onto them that demarcate you, I think if you take that sort of professional attitude to performance.

Yeah, it's not going in with arrogance either. It's going in with confidence. And for the listeners out there and, you know, we've got lots of triathlon enthusiasts that, you know, would love hearing that, you know, that better prepared you are. It's an obvious thing in life anyway, whether you're at work or business or your passion, whether you're going to play golf, you know, if you don't prepare, you going to perform poorly. So, you know, you've emulated that and it's going in with confidence. And I always say to our guys, if you have a really good plan for your race, you've almost got the answers. It's almost like taking a cheat sheet into the race. Here's your numbers, here's the pace you're going to ride at, here's the pace you're going to run at and you are confident, aren't you, because you've done it in training and, you know, all you've Got to do is execute it. But one of the things that happened to you was there's a whole lot of things that happen on the day. Like you were vomiting for 10, 12 hours. That's got to put a real thought into your brain about, am I actually going to finish this? Even though you are confident. But that would have. Would have been testing you, I'm sure.

Oh, yeah, don't worry. It tested me and I felt worried about the prospect of not finishing. But that, that was in my. It was in my mind. But I guess, you know, I never thought about stepping off the bike. I was, you know, funny actually. Ethnie, my wife and her brother, who's a psychologist who works at my clinic, Dan, we put in place a psychology questionnaire, basically. So every hour I was asked three questions. One of them was about writing my perceived exertion, so between 1 and 20. The second was a mathematical question, so I had to. Or numeracy questions. So I had to be able to remember five numbers and repeat them backwards in backwards order. And I was rated, you know, essentially I was able to do that for 24 hours without getting a number wrong. And the third, so, you know, this sort of. That mechanical planning, prescient mind was still there. But then the last question was a more creative type question. So along the lines of, you know, can you name all your nieces and nephews or, you know, five of your nieces and nephews and. Or who was best and fairest in the grand final in, you know, whatever it was. So, you know, more creative type questions. And essentially it was the creative stuff that, you know, obviously you don't send any blood to your creative brain when you're cycling for 24 hours. It's not required. You know, the flowery creative mind isn't required. They thought that the questionnaire had been set up for, you know, if I started going downhill, that they would say, oh, we're going to get you to stop because you're not passing your questionnaire anymore. When really I just set it up to make sure that I had a scientific psychology aspect of the study that we were doing. You know, I was never expecting, I was never stopping. Didn't matter how bad I was going, like I was going to fall off the bike.

Just as a matter of interest, what was your worst rating of perceived exertion when you had to answer it? What, what did you get? Did you get under. Under 5 at any stage?

Oh, no, no, no. I was, I was. I ranged between 12 and near the end. I think I got to 17.5 or 18, you know, last lap. Well, I just, I, it was really odd. I mean, it's an out of body experience. You know, there's a few things in your life where you look back and you think, oh, well, that doesn't feel like it was me who did that. It feels like someone else. You know, one of the examples of that for me is my former married life. Like it, honestly, it feels like a sitcom I watch, like seinfeld, you know, 10, 12 years ago. It doesn't feel like it was actually my life. And I think it was a real out of body experience. The 12 and 24 hours. It's almost as if someone else was writing, not me. It's really hard to explain properly, but yeah, I don't feel as though I was physically present and maybe even coming into that imposter type syndrome again, that it can't possibly have been me who did that. But I know that it was, if that makes any sense at all.

It's incredibly fascinating to hear that side of it. Based on that, what was your mindset in terms of your preparation and then even during it as comparison to the rest of your career and your life? Because you mentioned earlier on in the podcast that you were never that caught up in the result. You prepared as well as you could, you were confident in your ability all the time. But this is a totally different, totally different, like you said, skill set and event. Did you have the same mindset? Did you have to shift something? Especially with your medical knowledge of what was going to happen and the science of what could go wrong? You know, you probably knowing that might have been more of a curse, knowing that your heart actually could go into failure, your kidneys would go into failure, your lungs were going to be full of fluid. I mean, I just can't fathom how that would not scare you into that mode of potentially questioning yourself or stopping or pretty much psyching you out of the, of the event before you got there?

Yeah, I guess. No, no, I thought, I guess that's why I set up the insurance policy, which is to have other people to take care of me. Because, you know, I sort of understood that my single mindedness would mean that I was absolutely going to go for it. Well, not irrespective of the consequence, but by and large knowing that if there were negative consequences that we'd be able to sort them out. And actually that sort of let me again get to my limit, I think, Look, I think that what I started to say earlier, which I didn't Do a very good job of explaining, I don't think, is that I think the satisfaction that everyone gets from elite insurance or endurance support in general, not just even elite sport, is that it's very process driven. And so for me, I was getting so much satisfaction out of the process of. Well, in the same way that I got, you know, satisfaction out of the process of doing my university degrees and you know, I was 12 years of university full time, you know, I guess that process of getting better at learning in the same way the process of preparing for and executing an event with a team around you. And yeah, it was the entirety of the process that I was gaining satisfaction from. So even if I had a, you know, again, I didn't think about this beforehand, but even had I failed to execute on the day, I still would have had a lot of satisfaction about executing the leader and actually being able to actually get to the event. Because getting to the start of an event like that, in the same way getting to the start of an Iron man is explore a time trial or whatever it is, it's extraordinarily difficult to turn up uninjured. You know, like the week before the 24 hour, I had a urinary tract infection, which is, you know, something that I've sort of been afflicted with over the course of my professional career because I had a little malformation in my urinary tract. But I guess, you know, again, again I was able to get on antibiotics early and get over that and you know, yeah, turning up to an event injured and not sick is incredibly hard. And it's probably why I write my 12 hour in terms of actual performance, absolute performance over the 24 hour. Like, you know, that the output that I achieved in the 12 hours, you know, is in my mind, you know, higher than the output I managed to achieve in the 24. Because, yeah, like, I guess, yeah, it's the execution as well as executing the leader that was important. So, yeah, I just, it's the being enjoying the process is by far the most satisfying part. That's my point.

Yeah, that's fantastically made too. And, and look, with every build to every event, it is a massive process to get yourself, as you said, to the start line for a start and then execute. But at the end of the day, there is enormous satisfaction and that's probably why the majority of us go through such processes to get there. But we also, once that's a week or two behind us, there's a little bit of a void. And this is the area that we really want to delve into a little bit with. Did you have a big, did you ever come down from that, you know, that high that you were on? Was there a big letdown in, in the, you know, the weeks after? And if so, how did you, how did you, how did you manage that?

I've got to be honest, I felt relieved. Relief from the fact that I'd been executed and also that I, that I could become just ordinary Mitch, you know, rather than, you know, having. Trying to achieve something extraordinary is stressful. And also gathering all those people around and getting them to give up their time to you, it heightens the pressure. And I just felt wrapped that I'd been able to achieve my goals. And so I didn't feel, I didn't feel any letdown at all other than the fact that I had a 50 cent sized hole in my bum, which was a bit of a letdown. You know, the physical stuff I knew I'd get over. And then mentally I was in much better condition because of all the work that Jeff and I had done in the lead up. And also I had, I had him in place afterwards as well to go and see and talk about things with. So I actually didn't suffer any really negative sequelae because to me this was the cherry on top of my sporting career that I actually never thought I'd get, you know, after I got divorced. And I wasn't even sure that I'd end up getting remarried. And I certainly didn't think I'd get back to a really elite level in sport in the way that I was able to. And I think, yeah, I just sort of felt like as a 42 year old that it was an amazing experience to be able to get there and to actually be able to execute it. Yeah, it was extraordinary that I was able to do that. So, yeah, from the perspective I get you from, I felt let down perhaps previously, but to me this was the ultimate thing that I was going to do on the elite stage. And then I got to just exit and take the pressure off myself. So it was a, yeah, an exhale and shoulders dropping moment rather than feeling a sense of sadness or a sense of remorse about anything.

It's really incredible hearing your answers, Mitch, based on what you're saying and listening to your talk, it really sounds like you have a, a strong ability to almost disassociate yourself from being swallowed by negative thoughts or negative emotions when it comes to these things. You're really able to focus on the goal and focus on the outcome that you want. And we will talk about that in regards to mental health and depression because we do really want to touch on that. But in terms of the actual performance of the 24 hours, when, when it was really hard, when it was as painful as it could get, or even the 12 hour, what kind of things do you say to yourself? What is, what is going through your head in those times?

Well, I guess I'm just being analytical about, I mean, everyone has negative thoughts. But if I have a negative thought, I start thinking, well, you know, am I well fed enough? How's my pacing going? What's the point? You know, what power am I riding? What's my cadence? What's causing the negativity to come out? And I guess the other point that I wanted to make is that I think this is, again, I don't know, I'm harking back to this range thing. I think if you make your physical performance or your, you know, your rate performance, the thing that you define by then, if it doesn't, you know, actually it probably never achieves. You never achieve what you would hope to achieve in sport as opposed to, you know, you have the hypothetical you versus the actual you. You know, those two things never really make. And I think that's maybe why I had a near asymptote where I really did get those things to nearly meet. But it's having that other range of other interests that allow you then to not have that down period or the, the, the, you know, the post race depression because you've got a full life and you've got, you haven't, you know, given up absolutely everything to achieve on a sporting stage when there's far more important things like your family or your career or your friends to take your interest and hold your life happiness. And I think, you know, that's kind of the mental health aspect that I really try and drum into my patients. You should, you know, if you're constantly defined by what you're aiming to achieve on the sporting field, well, you can end up disappointed. And if, I guess it's not any secret that, you know, when I go back and look at how I was motivated in my sporting career compared with my ex wife Bridie, you know, from the moment I met Bridie, she wanted to win a world championship or win an Olympic gold medal. And that was never my sporting intention. You know, I, I had that step wise approach to improvement and as such my hopes were never dashed. Whereas I think, you know, Brydie had a lot of disappointment in her Sporting career probably up until the point she did the hour world record. And I think a lot of disappointment was fed into the fact that she just wanted to win a gold medal at the Olympic games. And that's just incredibly high standard and it's really hard to achieve something like that. So I think, you know, you have to have that mindset that's rational, that's realistic, and then if you exceed your expectations, well, great, then you can raise them the next time. But you know, I think having a world championship type attitude is going to bring most people undone. Very few people get to go out and do that. So I think it's taking little bites and little steps climbing Everest that you can't just keep looking up and thinking, I've just got to achieve more. Achieve more. It has to be a step wise process and then you're much more likely to achieve your goal.

But my question then is, Mitch, when you're 14 or 16 hours into a 24 hour record and you're vomiting and you are not comfortable at all, surely just thinking, well, my life's pretty good, I don't need this record isn't very motivating. That doesn't encourage you to go for another eight hours. So how do you hold those two beliefs at the same time?

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, yeah, no, I'm trying to say I was still motivated to achieve my goals. It's just that not being defined by your goals, I think is important. So yeah, I guess they're in theory, I guess you're right, they're in conflict with each other. But I guess you're relatively unburdened if you're, if you're not really, you know, if you're not, yes, you have to have high expectations, but if you're not absolutely defined by them, then you're unburdened by them. You can actually go for it. Whereas, you know, if your expectation is to win the gold medal and that's what you will only be happy with, well, your chances of winning a lot of like that are incredibly low. So yeah, I felt that maybe, you know, maybe I was just in denial to myself that I really wanted it as much as I did and maybe this was my modus operandi of going, well, it's not that important, you know, it's not the most important thing in life. So if I don't achieve it, well, I don't, you know, that gave me an out. But realistically, I never anticipated not getting the record. I think you have to have that Mindset to achieve a record, a world.

Record makes a lot of sense. It's pretty profound. I think what you're saying, it's extremely motivating and inspiring.

Yeah, I think, you know, my. I've got this plan of doing a PhD when I finish, when I finish work here, you know, when I'm 65, where I'll actually think that the thing that I'm really interested in is denial and how useful denial is because, you know, we touched on before, you know, you mentioned to me, Jordan, that I guess being worried about the, the physical downsides of what I was trying to achieve, the potential downsides, again, maybe I was practicing denial. And that's incredibly important in your life, being in denial. I know you have a loved one and you know, you have to really deny any negative thoughts about your loved one to actually be in love with. You know, everyone has their downside. Then you actually have to be myopic and be able to ignore them to be able to be in love with someone. And I think that's probably the same for achieving in sport. And I think it's kind of feeding into this imposter syndrome that I'm sort of talking about that. Yeah, I think you really need to not think about negative circle a deny they're ever going to happen to you. And then if they happen, we'll. Then you cross the bridge when you get there.

Yeah, I think there is just such, I would say the word again, profound lessons in what you've said. I think if someone was to ask how to approach life as well rounded as you can. I think you've kind of really given some strong answers in the last 90 minutes of this epic podcast. I do still want to touch on how does everything that you're saying tie into mental health? You're a big mental health advocate. You really advocate, advocate for being able to improve our mental health and be aware of it and know how to know how to cope with it. So how does this all apply with you and what you do with your patients and your work and all areas of life?

Yeah, look, I think you have to be well rounded to again, indemnify yourself against negative thoughts, but also to really enjoy your life. I mean, I just don't think unidimensional people end up being that happy. And I think, sure, everyone at home can think of someone who becomes overly focused. In fact, probably even yourselves at times, but if you find yourself being incessantly focused on one thing, you're a hard person to be around. And I'm sure that I was a hard person to be around Preparing for the 12 and 24 hour and certainly at times when I was preparing to ironman, you know, ultra endurance is by necessity a very greedy and selfish sport. And so I guess having lived through those times, having had depression myself as a reaction to the, the end of my marriage and having to sort of, well, having had suicidal thoughts myself, which is in stark contrast to every ethos that I hold in my life. I guess having seen and felt those feelings in myself and also, you know, my brother in law Liam, who committed suicide two years ago and how it just has so many effects and so many ripples in the pond in other people's lives when that sort of thing happens. Yeah, I just want to do everything I can to help others navigate through those difficult times. There's an irrational aspect to suicide that, you know, again we all try and make sense of people who suicide when actually there's no sense in it. And I think that having felt those feelings myself in the past when I was flawedly depressed just has given me, I guess an insight into the helplessness that you feel in those times. And yeah, like I said, I don't shy away in any of my consults or with my friends and family about talking about the experiences that I've had. And I certainly will happily engage with any patient. A patient might come in with a sore toe and I'm more than happy to hear about how they're feeling a bit down because that one conversation, who knows, it might make a difference. And if I can make a difference to just one person's life about even sharing my story and saying, well, you know, I was profoundly depressed, I still take antidepressants now, so I'm not going to get a recurrence of my depression. And I still see a psychiatrist and I think that's just what I need. And you know, I've still been able to achieve, you know, what I consider to be quite great things in my life and I'm extraordinarily happy person now having gotten over serious depression. So yeah, in a bit of a rambling way I guess that, you know, that's my interest. But I just want, yeah, I want to help one other person and that will have all it will have been worth me telling my story a hundred times.

It's fantastic that you've been so honest and upfront and really sharing your experiences because that's going to really help listeners because right at this very particular time in society where, you know, we're in the massive Middle of a pandemic and, you know, the mental health of people is being challenged everywhere around the world and you know, it's just such a crucial part of our life that if, you know, people who seemingly, and you from the outside look like you've got, you know, everything lined up in a row and things are going beautifully and, you know, it's just not the case. Everybody has things that they're struggling with and it's, you know, how you're dealing with it and the things you put in place to, to make sure that you can navigate your way through all the hurdles are going to be put in front of you. And I mean, the way you carry yourself, you've forever got a smile on your face and you know you're full of life, but. But yet you've got those feelings as well. So it's just not a particular type of person or personality that has these experiences.

Yeah, I think that it's a spectrum and I think everyone at times feels down their life and that's completely normal. I'm sure most people don't feel profoundly down and depressed. And I think, you know, it's a scourge that particularly young men have to cope with. And I think, yeah, you know, I had a guy in here not too long ago who I shared my story with and having, he was having some, you know, he was worried that he wouldn't be able to achieve some sporting success if he took antidepressants. And you know, I took antidepressants the whole time, you know, 12, 24 hours. It was performance enhancing. I wasn't depressed. So, you know, like, I think, yeah, you know, people talk endlessly about the negative potential side effects, but, you know, you can't possibly achieve in your life if you are depressed. It's such a, again, it's a very negative and very selfish illness. It makes you selfish. You can't help it. But yeah, I think if you imbue yourself with some positivity, if it takes some medications to that, well, great, you know, like, I would never have been able to do my world records if I was still depressed. So I consider having, yeah, like I said, taking the anti inflammatory. I certainly took the antidepressants, yeah, like a big part of my success.

So what is your specific message that you want to share? I mean, apart from sharing your story, which is incredible in itself. Is there a specific message that you want to get out from your perspective?

Oh, no, look, find someone to talk to. It doesn't matter if it's a family member Go and talk to a doctor, go and talk to a psychologist. Keep trying to. And don't be afraid to seek treatment because if I spent five years untreated in terms of medication for my depression, I saw four, five psychologists and it just took the right person to really reach me. And I haven't looked back since, you know, like. Yeah, I just think, you know, Jeff, when I talk to him about this, he sort of. He defers responsibility, that, you know, he was the one who helped me more than anyone. But, you know, I went from being profoundly depressed to having a relationship with a psychiatrist who then got me on medication. And since then I've got remarried, had a couple of kids and I couldn't be happier in my life. And I still think, let's go on to everyone, you know, that. That I think everyone should aim to achieve a happy life and if you're miserable, you don't need to suffer. So just keep trying until you find someone to help you.

That's really well said and it's something that we really need to seriously consider because there's going to be good times every day, every hour, every week, and there's going to be some really not so good times. And, you know, you've just got to understand that it's not all roses and you've got to be able to, you know, find a mentor, find a buddy, someone who definitely you can share. Share something. All you need is someone to listen to. So, yeah, it's. It's really. It's really great that you're getting that message across and it's something that. We really are so grateful that you've been able to spend such a long time with us, Mitch, and, and I know you're a very busy man and you're running a really busy practice because I'm sending a lot of the Trivalo athletes to you and yeah, we're really grateful with. We do finish on one question, though, and Jordan loves throwing this one at our.

I do want to quickly finish on two lotter notes. One, is that something we didn't get to touch on today? Maybe for another time. But could you summarize something that was a bit lighter in your career, but still tough? Summarise your experience on Tour de Crawf in 2013 for us, just briefly.

Tour de Crawf was just a riot. I can't believe that I got paid to ride across Australia and with one of the. One of Australia's best blinds. I mean, you know, Crawth is an absolute ripper. He's He's a credit for the great man. He's selfless in the extreme and probably to his own detriment sometimes, but he was a great person to get to know. And I don't get to talk to him very often, and I know he's busy, but, yeah, he truly is a. I think he's a great Australian. We don't hold our Australia medals, probably. They're probably given not sparingly enough. They're given out too frequently. But he would be a worthy recipient one day of an oa. And he's an absolute ripper.

Yeah, absolutely. Might be a story for another time. So, as dad said, our final question we like to ask our guests is what lesson have you learned in the past 12 months? It can be in any context. It can be about your vinyl collections or anything you want, but what lesson have you learned in the last 12 months that you would like to pass on to others?

Oh, dear. Don't have. Don't have two babies under two and try and renovate a house.

Well, you've managed to do both.

What a nightmare. It almost killed me. It was harder than 24 hours.

That's good. That's a great way to finish. Well, thank you very much for your time, Dr. Mitch Anderson. We really appreciate it. It's been invaluable very long podcast, but you've got such awesome stories, epic stories to share. So we really appreciate your time on here.

All right, congratulations to everyone who got to the finish of this.

I'm sure most people who started will have finished.

Fantastic, mate. Thanks for your time.

This has been another episode of the Get Fast podcast, brought to you by Trivelo Coaching. If you enjoyed this episode like so many others have, please, please leave us a review. Leave us a comment, let us know how much you enjoyed it. Leave a review on any podcasting app or in itunes. It really does help us. And please share it to your friends. Tell other triathletes and cyclists like you how this podcast has helped you train smarter and race faster. If you want to download our expert secrets cheat sheet, that is a cheat sheet with the very best tips, secrets and advice all the guests like Dr. Mitch Anderson have given on our podcast. We've had former athletes, current professional athletes, Ironman triathletes, cyclists, former Olympians, all give their very best secrets for how to perform at the elite level. They give inside tips. They give what works for them, the mental and physical things that give them the edge over their competitors. So if you want to get a cheat sheet of the very top tips from them. Just go to getfastpodcast.com that's getfastpodcast.com you can download all of that in one simple document.