Key Things We’ve Learnt From The Pros This Month

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. We're back in the studio after a few weeks of some epic guests on the podcast. And when I say epic guests, I mean we had some great guests in the top two Australian 70.3 triathletes in Sam Appleton and Ellie Salthouse. If you haven't listened to the those episodes from the last few weeks, go back and listen to them because they are absolute rippers. But we've got a big episode today because over the last few weeks, there's been some major things happening around the world of sport, or particularly sports, that we love. Some epic races to talk about, some records broken, plenty to discuss, and we can't wait to sink our teeth into it. But before we get into it all, dad, welcome to the podcast. Back in the studio, let's start with our normal segment. What are you grateful for?

The one I'm grateful for sounds a little bit like it's been said over and over and over, but I just feel now like we're coming to a new phase in the world. And I know there's a lot of bad things happening with the war in Ukraine and Covid still exists. And, you know, the other day I heard there's a mosquito virus going around now, but. But I really feel that the events in sport are resuming back to normal. And, you know, sport of cycling, athletics, triathlon, all the events are back on. They're not getting canceled. And I think this, for the first time in two years, I actually feel like we're coming out of the COVID I know there's still people dying and still people being very sick, and we're still coaching people who are just contracting the disease, you know, yesterday and today. But in terms of events being available, it's. It feels almost like we're, we're back to normal. And I'm quite grateful that we've done a hard two years of really battling. And to be honest, I think most sporting bodies did a fantastic job getting events still on. We still ran the Olympics, we still ran the world titles in cycling. We still had a lot of, you know, triathlon events. Man, it's amazing. The AFL had a season with a premiership. These are all things that you would never have thought in the middle of a pandemic could still, you would have an asterisk on the trophy saying, you know, due to World War II, this didn't happen. Due to Covid, this didn't happen. So I feel grateful that I think we're. You never know what's going to happen next, do you?

Yeah, that's the biggest lesson.

Something bad could even happen, you know, in 2022 worse than what's happening now, and there could be a war and the whole world could be involved in it, which would be really disappointing. But from a Covid point of view, I really feel confident that things are starting to spring. Classics. I can't wait. We've just started and entered the first. I've had Strato Bianca and Paris Nice has started and there's races everywhere and triathlon races locally in Australia. We've already had Geelong and Shepparton's this weekend and Melbourne's the following weekend. It's pretty exciting times. Mooloolabas this weekend. So there's lots of things happening. So I'm really grateful for that.

It's really exciting because for once it feels like you can plan for a race knowing that most likely it won't get canceled. But that said, we've learned our lesson last few years and you have to be prepared for anything. My gratitude is a little bit somber, but I am grateful that I got to see Shane Warne play cricket. That was a real tragedy that he passed away. And for our international audience that don't even know the sport of cricket, it's a sport that's played by not many countries, but it is.

Who's the equivalent? American?

A lot of my friends and I've spoken about this because the night that it actually happened, one of my friends was hanging out with some Americans and he was out. And everyone that was out at the pub and everyone was. Was talking about it all. A lot of the guys were saying to each other, did you hear about Shane Warne? And he said it was a really poor mood. It really affected everyone that was out at the time. And the American guys are going, what's going on? Who is this guy? They've never heard of him. And, you know, cricket's a real dominant sport in Australia.

It's played Commonwealth.

Yeah. Among the Commonwealth countries. And Shane Woon was one of Australia's greatest players. And the equivalent we found was maybe, you know, Kobe Bryant in America. He passed away. I think it was last year or two years ago suddenly. And, you know, one of America's greatest basketballers in the whole country mourned that because some of these players really, you know, they stand for more than just a sport. And often you grow up hearing about, you know, legends of sport before your time. But I'm just grateful that I grew up and can remember clear. Watching Shane Warne bowl and, you know, getting to witness one of the greatest cricket players of all time is something special. And to be able to say that you saw that person in person, you know, future generations, they'll hear about Shane Warne, but they'll have never seen them, seen him. So, yeah, that's my gratitude is that, yeah, I got to see him play. It was pretty special. Let's move into everything we want to get into today. And that's what's been happening around the world of sport. And as you said, dad, the spring Classics have started. There is, there is just so much going on and we want to, we want to dig our teeth into all of it. And let's start with cycling because basically from two weekends ago, for the next eight weeks there are just some absolutely epic races on the Spring Classics are back. Every weekend has got something on. Paris, Nice eight stage tour is on one of the major tours. Torino, Adriatic, I can never pronounce it. Riders on. There's just so much, so much to watch. And Strada Bianca, one of the unofficial classics. I was on Monuments. Yeah, Monuments was on a week ago and it was, it was an epic start to the season and we, we just, as always, we just can't wait to watch more and more of it. So let's start with thoughts on the Strada Bianca. The male and female, both really fun races to watch.

Boy, there were two contrasting races. The women's race I found, oh, riveting right till the finish. You did not know who was going to win until the last 200 meters and that's some sort of race. Two women against each other. One's an unbelievable successful champion and the other one's a bit more of a track rider up and comer Belgian close to our hearts. And, and to see her, she's not the same talent, I don't think, but her mental strength was incredible to hold on to Van Gluten's attack on the last climb. For those of you who don't know what the Strada Bianca finish is like, it's, it's last kilometer, which is basically straight uphill through this narrow corridor of screaming fans. It's, it's a cauldron. It's, it's, it would spine tingling I think if, if you were Pagaccia who was riding up there solo, but the two women were fighting against each other and. And it was really a tactical thing at the finish that. That got Lottie to win because she. She actually outsmarted than Vleuten. And I just thought that was. You know, they're both very good riders, but I think the best rider didn't win that race yet in the males race, the best rider was by far the best rider who won that race easily. So. So it's two different contrasting races. It is one of the races that I love. It's not. It's not a race that's been going for very long, 16 years.

From a cycling tactic perspective. What did Lottie Kopecki do there? Because Van Vleuten is one of the most accomplished riders of all time in cycling, and again, clearly the better rider. How did she lose that? Or more importantly, how did Loddy Kopecki win? What was she doing?

It was on the climb, because when you get to the climb, I think there's. When you get to the finish of the climb, I think there's 500 to go or 400. Yeah, I'm not sure. And that is quite important because the climb turns right and then there's, I think, four more turns. A left, a right, a left or right. And those turns, if you're not in front, you can't win. And so Lottie Kopecki, after the climb, managed to stay on the back of Van Vuten's wheel, got around the first corner, came up alongside, and then got in front, and then that was it. She couldn't lose from that point on because you can't pass again because the streets are so narrow and the turns are so sharp that it would be. You'd have to knock each other off to get past again. So that was the great tactical move. And Van Vleuten shouldn't have let her come alongside. It's easy to say that sitting, watching, she was exhausted. She'd just ridden 7 watts per kilo for the last one kilo. So, you know, it was pretty impressive by both of them. But the winning move might have been getting in front of her. But what got her to that position was the winning move, which was to stay on Van Vleuten's wheel, where Van Vleuten's strength was, which is she rode everybody off the wheel except Lottie Kopecki, who. Who must have just been staring at that cassette saying, you're not getting away from me. And that is the mental toughness that she had. And that's what's an outstanding racer. And she will win many races because she is a winner and it's exciting to have another rider come along who can challenge. And I was pretty excited about that. I actually watched that race and then I went to bed because the men's race came on next and I thought I'll just watch the men's another time because I was quite satisfied. I had my fill of, of really competitive and I just think the standard of the women's racing is unbelievably improving their skill, their ability to descend, their climbing, the power. There's tactics. They're all willing now to attack each other, which is what frustrated me when I used to watch it, you know, if you ever got to watch the races because they never showed them but, but there was never the excitement of attacking and, and the tactics of the teams. A at a really good level now.

And the POG he attacked with 50 kilometers to go. And if you didn't see stats Final solo 50 kilometer attack. He held 350 watts for the final 50 kilometers. I think he averaged 39.8 or something. He covered 50ks in an hour, an hour 18 or an hour 20. Max wattage of 810 or something. Probably up that last climb and he just, he held off second place by 40 seconds and probably the next 20 riders by one to two minutes. Just an absolutely absurd solo performance.

Yeah, it's one for the ages, I reckon. It's, it's. I don't think you'll see that type of victory in a professional rank ever again. I think there's only been probably two or three rides like it in the history of cycling where someone's been able to ride away from a professional peloton solo 50k to go on one of the most toughest courses against the biggest teams.

First Tour de France rider to win, Strato Bianco.

Yeah, and his list at 23 years of age, his list of victories is.

Sorry, I meant Twitter France winner, not rider to a friend's winner.

Yeah, he's breaking records left, right and center and, and he did it with such skill because he did it on some downhill bits. He actually, he actually went to the front over Simon Clark, who was, who was leading on the next downhill bit on the dirt and pocket. Char's skill as a dirt rider is incredible. He, and we've talked about this a lot of the good riders, Van Aert, van der Poel, even Cadel in his day. Yeah, there's been so many good mountain bike riders or trail riders or anybody who's really had to Battle the undulating terrain in the forests become unbelievably great road riders and the British rider who's just wondering a few pidcock who's who's also emerging the same and, and every time you see a new rider come through ask the question have they ridden cross cross training mountain biking and the answer is in invariably yes. And so his skill was actually what got him the initial 20 meters on and who was he, who was he going over? Ella Philippe, Simon Clark and the best riders in, in the race. The, the other quick step rider Alp. I can't even think of his name Asgrin and and you know there were no, no domestiques at the front at that particular part of at 98k to go and he's got a gap of 20 meters, 30 meters just on mountain bike handling skills in the dirt and, and that was, that was kind of I've got 30 meters and if those guys had could have gone with him they would have. They were a little bit gassed and he was riding skillfully better on the sand than they were. So it wasn't like they let him go. They couldn't ride with him for those two reasons. And then that 30 meters became 70 and all of a sudden they're now having to think oh geez, we have to bring him back. You can't. But do we?

Who's going to do it?

But do we have to bring him back? It's 49ks to go. That's suicide. And this won't last. But boy did he prove them wrong. And I think about 4 or 5k later he committed to I'm going to ride solo. Up until then he was still hedging his bets. I feel he wasn't. That's my impression. And then once you commit then you're all, you're all in and, and I think I did talk about that with one of my, one of our Traveller writers during the week about about half committing and fully committing and, and having the confidence in your own ability to go all in and, and be prepared for risk reward which could be. This could blow up in my face or it could be one of the wins for the ages and, and that's what it ended up being.

I always love it when you talk about that because I always say to people you're such a conservative coach and conservative can have a negative connotation which I don't think it is at all. You know we're dealing with endurance sports. The name of the game is to be conservative. You basically you don't want to be exciting or potentially blowing yourself up. But when telling an athlete that you need to consider doing this and risking it blowing up in your face, you're saying that for a reason. Because you want them to achieve something special, something greater than they've probably achieved before, and you're trying to get them out of that comfort zone. It's really cool. Two factors kind of stood out to me worth mentioning. One is that Michael Matthews was doing a lot of training the Aussie rider with Poga Char over the Christmas break, and he was posting some footage online and he posted one footage of them going up a training ride up a hill, and the Pog was doing a wheelie up the hill. And after a couple of days of posting together, Michael Matthews just wrote, you are an insane person. And it's just clear that Pogger loves riding his bike. He loves the sport. He just likes to have fun and go for it. And that comes out in his racing style. It's unbelievable what he's achieved at 23. I feel like that's a factor in his success. And there's something about the kid that is just special. And also, we spoke about coming into form in the Spring Classics and this is one of the first Monument attempts. Not every rider is going to be informant and maybe he's coming super hot, super inform, and that's how he's able to ride away. Whether it's the Alpha Leaps are using a few of these races to get themselves there. That's why they couldn't hold it, or they're all on the same level and he's just better. It's just interesting to see where they're at right now and what's going to happen over the next eight weeks. And then more importantly, how Pogba Char is going to go come Tour de France time.

Well, we'll know the answer that at the end of the Spring Classics, but I can tell you one thing is these, like, it's not a monument, but it should be. It should be the sixth monument and it will be down the track. I reckon the fact that it's only been going 16 years is hard for it to get that. But, you know, there's a whole lot of things going on here. The, the pro peloton riders want to win this race. This is one of the ones they want to win. Of course, they want to win every race. But there's some races that are more outstanding than others. And don't forget, there was that unbelievably bad crash with the whole Peloton.

Exactly.

And I've never seen a peloton crash like that. That was ins between two kind of hill bits. There was a bit in between, where the wind blows, I think double. And I've never seen bike riders go sideways on a road. And of course the unstable sand was making it worse. But Elaphilippe did the. You know, for those who've seen it, you know, he could have got nine out of 10 from the judges for that flip that he did and landed beautifully on his backside and then dive forward so the guys behind him wouldn't land on top of you when they crashed. To think on your feet like that.

Was in split second.

Yeah. So he, he's super talent, isn't he? But, but I think that, you know, that would have really affected them. They had to chase back. You know, almost everybody fell.

Yeah.

So there was very few people who, who didn't. So it. That affected everybody's race. But I'm, I'm not using that as an excuse. I don't think Ella Phillipe's in the form that he wants to be. But I'm sure he would have taken the victory because he's been training the house down and doing some other not so well known races and doing quite well. But he was about to win another race prior to that. I can't even think of what the name was, but he got cramped. He was in the last four riders, got cramp and then couldn't actually. I've never seen a pro get cramp at that level. It was really good to see. Almost shocking for him.

I wonder if because of the crash, he stuffed up his nutrition a bit because there was a lot of mayhem or.

Yeah, well, this is the previous race where he got cramped.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah. So he was, you know, nothing happened to him in that previous race, but he couldn't finish off the race and he was in prime position. He got away with a group of guys chasing one guy up the road, two guys up the road and they couldn't bridge the gap.

Yeah.

And he, it's like he could have mucked his nutrition up there, but it's like he's just not in that race. Race form. And you know how you can be training the house down, but racing's another level and you know, you have to be race fit. I always talk about being race fit and you can only get that by racing. And, you know, you can train as much as you like, but you don't get that unpredictableness of reactions to whatever's happening around You Whereas in training it's reasonably predictable. And that's why we always talk about having an unpredictable bunch to ride with is really good because it's very race like, if you can get a bunch to do that, if you're a local bunch, you can make it a free for all boys today. Do whatever you like, whenever you like. And you know, and also in a, in a pro peloton race, you have got particularly domestique guys who are there principally to ride as hard as they possibly can, knowing they're going to pull out. And that's not what happens to the average Joe in an age group race or in a club race. You don't have people sacrificing themselves to make the race incredibly hard. So only the pros can, only the top guys, the GC guys can keep up. So you don't get that scenario happening. So that's a really important point. But, but just talking about what we're, what we mentioned before about, you know, me being a conservative coach, it was a really good thing that you raised because this week, which is ironic because you mentioned that not knowing what I'd been discussing with some of the riders, we have a thing, an event called the Peaks Challenge, which is a 245k ride around the, the, the bright region. Yeah, we've just got four and a half thousand meters of climbing.

We are, we love that. We love the Peaks Challenge. We mentioned a lot on this podcast.

It's pretty, It' weekend. Anyway, there's a, there's, there's nine trivalo people in the, in the event and they're all going to be doing it finishing in different times between under eight hours for the best and possibly 11 hours for, you know, the, the other guys and everything in between. But there's a couple of guys in particular who've done it a lot of times. And this is me showing you an example of. You need to actually establish what you can do the first time you ever do an event. And if you're really risky, have a crack at it, but be prepared, you know, be okay. That it'll blow up in your face and you, you creep home. But these guys have done it a few times and my advice to them is have a crack. You've already got the time that you're happy with. Now go for a time that's a PB and you have to actually risk way more. And I'm pushing these guys. One guy's done, you know, in the eight hour, you know, variations of eight hours from.

You have to Be a really good writer.

You have to be. Yeah. You know, you're in the top, top 40 riders out of I don't know how many enter 4,000. I don't know. There's, there's a lot of people in this race and to be in the top percent, you know, you've got to be really at the top of your game. And, and there's two riders in that category. There's actually three riders, sorry, and I won't name them, but there's three riders in that carrier. I'm telling all three and they're not in their 30s, one is, and two are in their 50s and one's in their 60s. And I'm pushing them to be in the 8 hour, 9 hour, 10 hour is probably, you know, the top 20% and then after that it's the rest of the field. Anybody who does eight hours is the top 1%. And there are people who can do seven hours, 27 hours, 30, and they're more like pro riders. But I'm pushing these guys to, to ride with the eight hour group. And, and there's the first climb to Wonga Gap which is about a 30 minute climb from Mount Beauty to the top of Toowonga. From Tooonga to Mount to the top of Toowonga is on a 24 minute, 22 minute, 20 minute climb. Depending on who, who you are. If you're, you know, Chris Froome, it's probably a 16 minute climb or banal or someone like that. But, but you know, I'm telling these guys they have to actually be willing to risk everything from that first climb to stay with the eight hour group because from there to the next climb is like an hour and a half through the valley and, and you can sit in. And then the climb at Mount Hotham is a major climb. So I'm explaining this detail because I want you to understand what you're risking. There's a, the Hotham climb is a 90 minute climb and then the falls climb is another 90 minute climb.

And so you do a half hour climb and then big ride and then you've got a 90 minute climb, big ride and then finish with a 90 minute.

And this is for the fast guys. And you know, Tawonga could be 40 minutes and Hotham could be 2 hours 30 and Falls could be 3 hours for the rest of the guys. So I'm talking about the guy going fast. So you know you could risk everything and get to falls and have nothing. So risk, reward. From my coaching point of view, these guys have already done the steady state and got good results. Now I want them to push themselves and see if they can get a great result. So I will be an attacking coach when I know the riders a are in the form that they can do it and they have the, they have more chance. The possibility is, is more than likely than not and they have to actually commit, they have to commit to the plan. And you know that first climb up to Wonga if they're not with the eight hour group, by the time they get to the top, that plan is gone. Because you'll never catch those guys as a single rider on it doesn't matter how good a descender you are because there's a big descent on the other side of Tooonga which is, is a 10 minute descent which is, you know, these guys are good descenders that we coach so they, they could have a chance. But you, if you don't stay with that group, that's that. So I'm telling them your whole focus is that first climb you must follow the wheel and, and stay in. Don't worry about your power. Don't look at any of your numbers. You look at that cassette that's in front of you.

Yeah.

And you've don't let that guy go. And if that's what your plan is to be with the eight hour group. And I think they look at me shocked like oh yeah, this is, this is, this is a challenge, isn't it? And, and you know, be prepared to risk everything. And, and if you don't get to the top of Tooonga with the, with the eight hour group, that plan's gone.

So because for the other six riders it's complete opposite advice. You are saying do not look at anyone around you look at your power number and if people are flying past.

You, let them go. Yeah, yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. And you know there will be unfortunately they, and fortunately they have ride leaders. They have a right eight hour ride later, a nine hour, a 10 hour, 11 hour, 12 hour. And that, that job of the, the ride leader is to get that group to the finish in nine hours and the 10 hour later is to get them there under 10 hours, etc. Etc. So there's a fair bit of pressure on those ride leaders to get the pacing right. And because you stop for refreshment, it's not refreshments, it's for nutrition. You have to be very regimented in how you're doing it. And we actually coach one of the nine hour leaders in Matho. So, you know, their job for them is to keep the group humming along sort of thing. So I'm saying to the guys who are in that group, good, you've got some help. But what about the guys who are doing 9 hours 30 or 9 hours 20 or 8 hours 40? They've got no help. So they have to actually manage the race completely different to the guys who think they're going to try and break 8 hours or break 9 hours or break 10 hours. So it's an interesting dynamic. So, so yes, there's, there's, there's different ways to skin a cat, as you say, and, and depending on how your fitness has gone, how your preparation's gone. Did you know the things I'm asking is, did you do everything right in your preparation for this? Have you had any illness? Did you have Covid for a start? And you know, are you able to ride these numbers based on your training? And you know, it's no secret that we test the guys this week before they go to Peaks, and this is a great example of understanding your ability and your ambition and also being prepared to commit to a plan. So it's a great example and I can't wait to see what happens this weekend with the outcome for all of the guys in it, because everybody's got a different plan and strategy and some are very aggressive and some are very conservative. And I know that one guy has been sick and hasn't been able to prepare properly, but he still wants to do the race. And I'm saying to him, you need to, you know, be more conservative than you would have ever been, just so you can get to the finish. That's your goal. You know, forget about the times, ride your numbers and be conservative, hide, you know, get around as efficiently as you can.

Yeah. What's the difference between the advice that you're saying there when you're telling an athlete to go for it compared to an ironman? Because I don't think I would almost ever hear you no give that plan in an iron Man. But they're both similar time length.

The only thing is similar is their endurance, the, the heading. They're both endurance events. As a, as a cyclist, you've. This particular ride has three testing sections, the three climbs and everything in between is really just everybody recovering, waiting for the next one. Whereas an Ironman is three sports. So you've got to, you've got to swim, ride and run as evenly as you possibly can. And, and in the Three Peaks challenge, guys between Tooonga and, and Harrietville, which is the start of the climb for Mount Hotham. The peloton could be doing 60Ks an hour and you're in a bunch of 40 people and your job is to hide in there and get a free ride. So there's so many different scenarios that make up the both of those events. The only similarity is they end up nine hours, 10 hours or 11 hours. But you need to be eliminating the risk as a triathlete. As an Ironman triathlete, you need to be conservative and patient the whole way through. And there are people in Three Peaks who need to do that as well. But you know, generally every triathlete I coach, there aren't any exceptions where you would be risking everything in the swim and then risking everything on the bike and then you know, absolutely hammering it on the run from. From start to finish. You. You would. As you get closer to the end then you can risk more as a triathlete.

Yeah.

And I think that's the difference.

Yeah. And the difference is. Would be the advice would be to a pro. They're going to race it compared to.

Yeah, we're talking about the age group, isn't it?

Yep. We have a. Moving on to our next sport and. And we want to touch on triathlon because there's some been some really exciting updates with Lionel Sanders who. Which we just cannot wait to talk about and share on this podcast. But we'll get there in a second because I want to move on to. So Katrina Bissette, the Australian Victorian, actually 800 meter athlete. She went to Tokyo for the 800 meters. She's the Australian 800 meter record holder and had a really, really disappointing. Tokyo was out in the first heat and in her interview after she just said no idea what happened. She put a post on social media a couple days later and said I still don't know what happened. I'm just absolutely devastated. She. She was, she had the confidence that she was going to do a Peter bowl and make it to the final and that was devastating for her. And six months later she's just entered the indoor track circuit in Europe and come out with two wins out of two against some of the world's best athletes. And she just broke the Australian indoor 800 meter record last week. So a terrific turnaround. I wanted to get your thoughts on. On that because we were, we never, we were. We were a little bit interested in her tactic at Tokyo. She went out super fast because she's such a strong athlete and that's how she races all the time. She likes to go from the front and basically hang on, she backs her strength in the last 100 or 200, which is the biggest thing in an 800 to get her home. And she didn't have the strength in Tokyo. She keeps racing with the same tactic. She did it in both those indoor races, led from almost the front and her strength carried her and she got some terrific times. So what are your thoughts on seeing that? And big congratulations to her and her racing kind of paying off and her sticking to it.

Yeah, I remember at the time when I watched her at the Olympics, I just thought, and you and I have talked about this a little bit, there's a difference between championship races and racing to a time. And as you know, because you've 800 meters, something you've had a crack at, if you run the race as it's panning out, that's how championship races are run. You could actually end up with the slowest ever 800 meter race because people might choose to jog and then sprint the last hundred meters or they might choose to run from the get go. So you've got all these variations of things that can happen. And so her tactic has always been the same. And I was kind of asking the question, she needs to race it. Race more championship style events that the outcome of the time is not important, the outcome of the position is. So if you're trying to run a qualifying time, you don't want to run it like a championship race. You want to run it paced properly to achieve the time. And so that's the difference between that and a championship race where the win is everything. You know, you might come third and do a PB and break an Australian record, but I guarantee you you'll only be kind of happy because you didn't win, but you've got an Australian record, that'd be super impressive. But you'd still be going, oh, you know, it's okay, but you know, I'm here to win at that level. So. So I was thinking she needed more championship style race practice so that she, she's only going to have that one card to play, which is I'll start from the front and lead from the front and finish at the front. That will work a lot of the time, but it depends on the depth of the field in my opinion. So if you're, if you're ranked 15th in the world and you happen to race seven races that you're the number one runner in that race as compared to when you go to the Olympics, your 15th runner, that tactic won't work because they'll just sit on you and just sprint past you, which is what happened at the Olympics. And you know, you have to actually improve your fitness and your, your ability so that you can match them and be, you know, number two ranked runner in the world. And that tactic will work every time because that's happened to many good male runners. Who was the African who held the 800 meter, won the last two?

Rhodesia.

Rhodesia. How did he run from the start? He just ran them off their legs because he was the fittest and better ranked number. If there was someone who was better than him, who could hold, hold his, hold his, his feet.

Yeah.

Hold his wheel.

Yeah.

He would lose.

Yeah.

Because he has no other tactic but because he was the best in the world, it worked. And that was, that was my take on. As she gets better and she's obviously done some more work in being a better runner, that tactic will work more and more. But I'd love to see her do a lot more championship races so that she has more time cards to play.

Well, the World Indoor Championships are in a month and she's been selected. Obviously there's a really good group of Australian athletes who have been selected because they've run. Run the qualifying times or they're just good enough. And that'll be interesting to see. We'll see how it plays out in a month and we'll talk about it on the podcast. A very similar story in a completely different distance was Australia's Jack Rayner. He's 26 years old, he's a marathon runner for Australia. Same thing. Went to Tokyo and had to DNF due to a stress fracture in his femur which was never going to end well. But again, he was absolutely devastated with the fact that he DNF'd at Tokyo and so much so that he. He's basically said he doesn't count himself as an Olympian, which I think is very harsh on himself. He made it to the Olympics. He raced in the race. He said, I don't count myself as Olympian because I didn't finish. But he just won the Zadapec a couple of months ago or six weeks ago, I think 10k on the track. And then he went overseas and just ran a 44 second PB of 10K on the track. And it was also an Australian record by seven seconds. Absolutely terrific performance. And it kind of shocked everyone because he's a marathon runner and it shocked himself. And I really want to talk about this because he said something really interesting. He said, when I was A little bit younger. I was basically not fast enough on the track. And I kind of held this belief that, well, I can't be a track runner. And so everyone around me kind of pushed me towards a marathon and I went down that path because that was what I was really good at. And then now he's had a few years of experience under his belt, he's come back, he's a gun marathon runner, but he's come back and had a crack on the track. And it really ties in with our belief about strength and base and how a lot of our athletes experience similar things when they train for an endurance event. And then eventually after a big good period of doing that, they go back to a shorter event, they run PBS without doing any specific training to that race distance. And that's kind of what Jack Rayner's done.

It's an amazing stat that keeps happening with athlete after athlete. And it's always intrigued me because I know that that's what's happened because I've experienced it by coaching people. But it's, you know, I was just wondering whether it was the same as at that high level as well, because age group is, it's clearly that is a fact. The bigger aerobic base and fitter you are, you can come back down the distances and run PBS without doing any intensity, which is kind of phenomenal. And there's a few reasons. It's never one reason, as we've always talked about, and there may be other reasons that I'm not even considered. But one of the things I can really attest to is if you think about your fitness as a bank, like, you know, a bank that holds money, except your fitness holds fitness. Your bank holds fitness, not money. And the years of, of continuously developing and adapting to training load is, is like, you know, a huge 50 square bank of fitness as compared to someone who's been doing it for two years, has got this tiny little block of fitness that's, that's, you know, could break down at any time. Whereas the person who's done this massive accumulation of years of running at a young age. And I don't mean, you know, 10, 11, 12, I mean, you know, 19 to 29 sort of thing that, you know, that is a bank of fitness that you can tap into. It can never be taken away from you. You know, the only way your money can be lost in a bank is if it's robbed. And you know, no one can take your fitness away that you've banked. And, and I think that is a key Component. And yeah, sure, he may not have been a fast track runner. He was still bloody good as a track runner. Like he was always, you know, in, in national age group track stuff. He was right there.

Yeah. When he says he's not good enough, he's, that's him. He's out playing it 10 or 20 seconds off the pace of the best guys, which at that level you have to make a decision.

But yeah, yeah, so, so was. I think it's a great decision that he's moved up, up to longer distances and now he's given him. Had a little crack at it and risked a bit because he's probably thinking, oh, you know, and this is the second factor I want to say is when you have no expectation and there's no pressure because the other guys who are the track specialists have got all the pressure. You've got nothing to lose. And that's where commitment to a plan and willing to risk everything when you don't really, you're not expected to do well. And now the pressure is going to change because he's already won the Zatopec on the track and now he's a.

10 kilometer track classic.

And now he's gone to America and broken the Australian track record. Track record. Even though he finished third in the race, which is. I'm sure he'd be disappointed with not winning, but he's got an Australian record which could stand for a very long time. That is an outstanding time that he's run.

It was, by the way, it was 27:15. So 27 minutes 15 for 10K. That is just absolutely absurd. That's two.

Yeah.

What is that? Two five kilometer efforts in, in 13 and a half. 13, 13:40. Basically.

Yeah. And you know, we know some of the very best 5k runners in the world are running between 13 minutes and 13:20 and the outstanding runs under. Under, you know, running in the 12s, 1250s, there's not many of them.

The guy that won and Jack Rana won't be disappointed that he lost to this guy. He ran 26:32. So that's two 13:16s in a row. That is just ridiculous. You watch any world class five kilometer.

Event and the winner will run between 13 and 13 16.

Yeah, exactly. And half the field will run between 1310 and 13 30. You know, the, the Olympic qualifier I think was 13 12. For a 12. Yeah.

Or 13, 13 13.

Yeah.

And so Dave McNeil ran 13 12.

Y. The winners ran 1316 twice in a row. That's just absolutely absurd. All right, let's move on to triathlon. And huge update has come out from Lionel Sanders in the last few months. And he's really just unveiling the curtain as to what he's doing for some context. Lionel Sanders, one of the best triathletes in the world, especially at Ironman distance. He. But he's good at both 70.3 and Iron Man. And the thing about him is he's. He's come second and third a lot because he's in the area of Jan Frodeno, which is just. He's nemesis. And he constantly challenges Jan on social media. It's quite funny, the little interactions they have and they're good friends now, but he's always saying, come on, Jan, race me again, race me again. And Jan's kind of going, well, I'll beat you again then if I have to. Jan just keeps beating him and he keeps saying, come on, race me here again. And it's great. It's really good for the sport. But from the outside, it kind of looked like he'd gotten to his peak and he's just not good enough to be the winner. He's just not good enough to be the best in the world. And he has taken the opposite approach. He said, no, I'm not giving up. I need to do something different. And he has enlisted the help of the Norwegians and he's gotten one of the Eden brothers, Gustav Eaton World 70.3 champion. His brother Mikhail Eden is now Lionel Sanders coach. And he's gone down the Norwegian path of training based on lactate. And he's kind of really unveiled this in a lot of his content online. And he's really showing people what he's doing. And we are just so fascinated, in awe and inspired by Lionel. And we cannot wait for his season this year because he's just. He's gotten himself to. He basically says this. He's gotten himself to where he is based on true determination and grit, but not very good training principles, which is incredible. And now he's got the world's best training principles behind him. We can't wait to see how he's going to go.

Doesn't it show you. This is a point you made to me, which really resonated, like he. He's saying he doesn't think he had a very good training program. Look how successful he was. And so he's just proven that even with a mediocre program, with consistency and determination and motivation, that you can still achieve as long as you're consistent. Because he's. He's a hard trainer. And he, like, that's probably Benny's downfall is he just flogs himself so hard and. And so now I love the fact that he. It's almost like an alcoholic. You can't not be an alcoholic unless you admit that you're an alcoholic. You can't improve as an athlete unless you admit that you can do things better. If you keep saying I can't do any better and I'm going to keep training the way I am, well, you will still the same. You'll stay the same. There's no doubt about that. You will stay the same unless you change something. So I love the fact that he's saying, well, I want to be better and the only way I can do it is changing something. And, boy, is he going about it the right way. He is embracing and listening and he's said he's never learned so much about training that he has in the last short period. And he's trusting the process and he's going to do it 100%. And I absolutely love his attitude and I wanting him to succeed because I think it'd be a great example for, you know, all the listeners out there, you know, especially the. The everyday triathlete, the everyday athlete, the age grouper. You know, there's a few lessons here. You know, A, be consistent in whatever you're doing. That'll get you a long way. B, don't just keep doing the same stuff. If you're not getting help from a coach, don't just keep doing the same stuff and expecting a different result. You need to do something different. You know, if you keep fading every time you do a triathlon, don't sign up to the next one until you're gonna change that plan and change the training plan, change the actual race plan, change everything about what you're doing. Otherwise, guess what? The same thing's gonna happen 20 times in a row. Yeah, so. So, you know, we're. We love the Norwegians, we love the Europeans, the Belgians, because they're just willing to try stuff that's different. And their attitude has been, oh, nothing much has changed in exercise physiology in the last 30 years. It's about time we tried to experiment and see if we can get anywhere. And guess what's happened. They're now the world leaders and they're dominating a lot of the pro cycling races. They're now right up there in triathlon. They've won the Olympics, you know, so as we've said many times, you know, people are doing groundbreaking stuff we need to all get on board and see what it's about. And I certainly am, and so are you. As coaches, we want to embrace new stuff so that we can actually help ourselves learn to coach better. And I'm definitely not sitting here saying I know everything, because I don't. And the minute I see something that works for others, I want to find out about it and I want to see. Can I implement lactate training with everyday cyclists, a triathlete or cyclist or runner? How difficult is this going to be realistically to do? We don't have time to be beside our athlete taking lactate off their ear every time they've done a. An interval. Is this a practical solution? Can we do it? Or can we get a lactate test and then know what our power and our running pace is and our heart rate according to that number, and then use that as a generalization and then just maybe take a few lactate tests here and there. These are things I'm thinking about already, about how. Because we know that it's more accurate. We already know that, but it still has its issues because there is a lag. Just like heart rate has a lag, the lactate, you can finish an interval and then take lactate. Right. Then 10 seconds later, and then like heart rate, it still goes up another 20 seconds. When you finish the interval, lactate can still be climbing and then it falls. So. So there's still these issues with everything we do.

Yeah. And as we already found with lactate testing, when they actually find that threshold of where you go up, there is a margin for error there. And so it's. They. They approximate once because the graph kind of spikes in. In lactate. If you look at the graph, it. There's kind of a bunch of dots there where they're taking your lactate levels every minute or so, because they can't take it every 10 seconds. By the time that it spikes, they're saying it's somewhere around here. But we couldn't say it was exactly 2.35 millimoles or 2.64 millimoles. You know, it was. It comes up as 2.4, and it's going to be about there.

Yeah, there's. There's so much to that. But anyway, that's. That's kind of what I think, and I could be proven completely wrong with this. But I, I just think this is. This is the future of, of how. And look, power meters were, you know, the biggest change that's been in cycling in the last 20 years. And, and you Know, the power meters for runners will be available and functional very soon. But I think training, train to power, train to heart rate, trained average speed, train to lactate is going to be, it's going to be the next thing. And, and you know, we've been investigating for the last year about how best to measure it and test it and done some really good research. And we're kind of at a point now where we think we can implement it with our coaching. And, and it's going to be exciting time, I think, because we will be able to train more accurately. And we think we train very accurately already.

Exactly.

But this would be, it's more confirmation, I think, that we're in the right area. We don't want to overcomplicate it because we are dealing with everyday people who are not professionals. And so if we can work out the science behind it and then just say this is all you need to do based on what we've done, research, then I think that's, that's, that's the way people will, will embrace it, I think.

And as with everything we do, because there's a lot to the coaching program and you say to athletes, here's all your options of what you could do. And athletes will pick and say, I'm willing to do that, I'm not willing to do that. You know, and this is just one of those things where some athletes will take on board and say, I'm willing to, you know, really dive into this. And some athletes will just say, no, that is way too much, not willing to do it. I'm just an age grouper, I'll stick to the, the training principles that work very well.

You know, it's so spot on. And you know, we have the range. You know, guys are saying, what else can I do that's going to help me become better? And, and as I've said, it's not about winning, it's about being better version of what you are. And, and everybody who comes to us for help is actually, whether they're a beginner, an intermediate or elite, they are all wanting the same thing, which is to improve themselves. And if you're at the elite end, you could improve yourself to win. If you're at the beginner end, you'll just improve yourself to have a more enjoyable day. Yeah, but they're all admirable goals and they're the things that we're trying to create and make, make the program manageable because everybody has different times and, and available periods in their life to commit to things. And but if you're gonna, if you're gonna do things properly, you know, whether you're a beginner or not, you can still use this technology. It's, it's not like it's, you know, that, oh, that's too far out of my reach. You know, I hear that a lot. You know, I don't be that serious. Well, hang on, you've actually contacted me and you're willing to pay for coaching and you've spent ten grand on a bike. You are reasonably serious already. So, you know, don't, don't half commit like we're talking about with, with actual race tactics. So, yeah, it's, it's going to be fascinating next period. And I, I think the Norwegians are, you know, not only the Inger Britzens on the track, but, but I think they're trailblazers. And, and I think the fartlek was a Swedish thing. So it's kind of ironic to me. In the 60s, Fartlek was first introduced by the Swedes, which is that Scandinavian. There's something about, they just love to, to, you know, explore. And, and I just think if you beautiful countries to live in, but boy, you have to be pretty tough to live there. It is freezing. Yeah.

Yeah. We had the Norwegian coach Arud Varden on the podcast late last year and he's been posting a lot of social media stuff over winter where instead of getting out his bike because, you know his hometown in Norway is under 10ft of snow, he, he goes on a long endurance cross country run. So he's cross country skiing instead of a endurance run or endurance ride, which I absolutely love. My last point on that, I'll say, is that it's been great to get to talk to a lot of pro athletes, but a lot of the athletes that share their content online, like Lionel Sanders, it really unveils a curtain and shows that there's no magic wand happening back there. And one of the best Ironman athletes in the world had his program pretty, pretty much not right. You know, and we assume that because they're pros, they must be doing everything perfect. We have to copy exactly what they do. And the old adage, you know, there's that story where people will try and model success and they'll try and model exactly why someone's successful. And you might watch Lionel Sanders and he ties his shoe up his left foot first and his right foot and then he scratches his right head before he runs. And so everyone thinks that's the key to his success and that's an exaggerated example, but, you know, even the pros, someone as good as him can be getting it so wrong. And so everyone's learning, everyone's developing. We've already spoken to a lot of pros that have different approaches to training. And I mean, even Ellie Salthouse said something interesting last week where she said a lot of the top triathletes are doing the same sort of training, which I agree with. But then the flip side of that coin is they're doing a lot of things very different. And like, those small things that they're doing different add up to big changes. And so, yeah, not everyone's getting it right and everyone has a chance to improve.

You only have to have a 1% improvement. And that could be you, you coming third or first. So, you know, there's, there's so many examples of what you're saying is true. And, and the good thing I've read is that these experts who are trailblazers are experimenting.

Exactly.

Because they actually don't know themselves. And the only way to find out how things work is to experiment. And as you know, I'm forever doing that to myself. And, and that is because once you've trialled it with something and it's successful, then you can develop that success program and you keep tinkering with it until you, you think that, you know, you're getting closer to a perfect program. And, you know, you've got to be careful. You know, the program that Lionel had was probably fantastic, but it didn't suit him. Yeah, it wasn't enabling him to, to improve.

It got him very good, obviously. But, yeah, very last thing I want to mention, this will be the end of the podcast, but in the triathlon world, and the triathlon scene is going to be so exciting this year just to see how the pro stack up against each other in what should be a relatively covert normal year with lack of races. We just had to buy 70.3 over the weekend and there were some ridiculous times posted. And I think it's just a fast course because those times were, they were 20 minutes ahead of the, you know, the pros in Geelong. So something about, you know, you spoke about the fact that on the bike leg on the highway, they're basically getting a wind tunnel from all the cars going the same direction.

It's an interesting course because they've got, you've got the freeway with the cars with witches hats separating the cars who are just going about their everyday business and the race is going on. So there's periods where the cars would Be blocking the wind and there's motorbikes with the lead pack and of course that triathletes are getting that swapping turn. So it's almost like, like all the, all the gods are aligning.

Yeah.

And it's a fast, hot mix, flat course. So. So there's periods where you're getting an unreal advantage, which is not cheating, it's just, it's just that course. The course. And, and to write a 152 for 90k at 47ks an hour. Just think about that for a second. Yeah, that seems a little bit unrealistic to me.

Yeah.

So. So, you know, it's still, it's still unbelievably good riding. You still have to ride your bike no matter what the conditions are. Yeah, I just don't think it's. I'm not taking anything away from what you've done, but you know, I, I think comparing it to other courses around the world, it's. There's nothing like it.

Yeah.

And look, the winner still ran 68 minutes. A 108 half marathon. Let's just get that out there. That's pretty fantastic.

Yeah. Which again, dead flat course compared to, you know, the wind. San Octon and Geelong ran what, 70, 71, was it? Yeah. And. But that's a bit more undulating. Yeah, it's very undulating.

It was very windy.

Yeah.

On that day. And don't forget if you've had an easier ride, and that seems even funny thing to say, you've ridden a 10 minute PB or an 8 minute PB, but if you're not pushing the power for the equivalent speed, you are actually having an easier ride. So you should be able to run better.

Yeah, but there was two reasons I wanted to bring up that race. One is because of the fast times. And in the women's race, Daniela Rife was unable to back up her win from last year. And she has only. I think there's an insane stat that she has only not been first on the podium in a race. She's in the last six years, like a handful of times, four times or something, which is incredible for a 70.3 stat. But she was beaten by Laura Philip, the German, who, and this is the important point, took it out just 13 seconds off the fastest time ever for a 70.3 across any course. And like you saying you can't cross compare courses, but they do, you know, have the best times across 70.3s and she was 13 seconds of the fastest time ever, which says a lot. And Martin Van Real won the men's, and he is an ITU triathlete who stepped up to 70.3. And this is happening a lot more. And this is why I think triathlon scene is going to become so exciting, because this kind of crossover is happening more and more. You know, Blumenfeld, who. The Norwegian who won the Olympics, is now given having a crack at 70.3 in Ironman. Van Real's done a few 70.3s, but he took out this one and absolutely dominated. So, you know, it's the opposite to what we're talking about with, you know, more bass help with speed. His speed seemed to help him, especially in transitions with the 70.3. But most importantly, Blumenfelt proved he was human in this race, and he had an absolute disaster. He came 14th. He was way off the pace. In his own words, it was shit from the start, but something went wrong there, and that shows that they're experimenting, they're doing different training blocks. And, yeah, he butchered this race. And that, for me, was good to see, because it did prove that he was human and beatable.

And don't forget, Jord, what is the most important race for him? The World Championships, the 70.3. Where are we? March. Yep. Okay. So that has to be rammed home to the listeners. You don't want to be in March form. You don't want to be in. In October form in March. You want to be in the best form of your life in October.

Yeah.

And sure. And he. He's. And we've talked about that in cycling. You know, we see Sagan and. And Ella Philippe go to, you know, 20 other races and come nowhere. And yet, when it counts, the race they want to perform in, they're the winners. And mark my words, he'll be right there in October. Learned a whole lot more from, you know, he had. He had a puncture in this race which cost him eight minutes. Yeah, you better tell everybody that. Yeah, so. So.

But he.

Yeah, he said he was going bad.

He was off. He was. He was two minutes behind the pack and swim.

Yeah, so. So he's. He was actually. And we don't know what training he's done. He's not telling us what training he's done. So he could have been in the middle of the hardest block of training. So there's so much that goes into it, so we just don't know enough about the information. So I. I just. My thing I'm sticking to is they've got it right when it counted.

Exactly.

He's also won other world titles and their squad has done, you know, unbelievably when it counted. And, and so I would be surprised if this isn't the case when it counts most.

Yep, that's it for this episode. Like we said, so much packed information to look into. And like we said, we, like we said, we can't wait for the triathlon racing calendar this year. So many good events to look forward to. And we'll keep you updated with everything we see across the cycling, athletics and triathlon world. That's it for now. Thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next time.

It.