Lachlan Morton: The Unconventional Pro Cyclist

When it came to racing, I was like super competitive, you know, and losing. Yeah, when I got beat, I hated it, like didn't do well. And like, I think over the course of just that period, like cycling became my identity and winning became my identity.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trouvello Coaching, Jared Donnelly. I have never been more excited for an episode than today's episode and it is a character in cycling who has become a cult figure, but maybe not for the reasons that you have thought of and you might not have heard of him unless you follow a bit more of the off road stuff. But regardless, Locky Morton has had one of the most fascinating stories in world cycling. He was an unbelievable junior who got picked up into a World Tour team when he was just 20 years old, but infamously gave away the sport and quit the World Tour at a young age after feeling burnt out and completely overdone by the sport and it really wasn't what he wanted. But along his journey he ended up finding his love back for it and had a, has had a crazy 10 year journey of falling in and out of love with cycling, figure out what he wanted and has carved the way to be an absolute pioneer for enjoying cycling in a different way and in a non traditional way and has been really a leader in encouraging people to go find more events that they can find enjoyment in, find more off road events, more gravel riding, more mountain bike racing which is becoming more and more popular as every year goes by. It's really important to understand the type of rider and ability he has had in his story before we start this conversation as well as the type of things he's done with him himself in cycling and with his profile which has been quite incredible. As we said, he started as an absolute gun junior winning state and national titles. He signed a Garmin Pro team at age 20 but then a couple years later he basically almost quit the sport and was doing a lot of things his team didn't like. And where he went on his first adventure with his brother Gus, who was also a World Tour cyclist, where they rode from Port Macquarie to Uluru, a two and a half thousand kilometer journey which they completed in just 12 days, which averaged over 200 kilometers a day and in the outback. And that story really was the start of this journey for Locky where he started to find that cycling there was more to cycling than just road World Tour racing, which is a pretty extreme thing to say. His biggest achievements include winning the Tour of Utah in 2016. In 2017, after a few years off the World Tour, he got picked back up by Dimension Data. He's ridden the Volta and the Giro d' Italia and he now rides for EF Education. The last couple of years he's rode on their World Tour team in road cycling. But this year he's finally given that away and is just focusing on off road. But outside of the road cycling stuff, he's also attempted some unbelievable ultra feats, including he held the world record for the Everesting Challenge. If anyone doesn't know what that does, it's where you climb the equivalent meters of Ascension of Everest in one attempt. He held that world record when he first attempted it in 2020. And in fact he got the world record and they told him that it didn't count because of some, some sort of ridiculous rule which kind of happens in cycling a lot, where they said he wasn't reaching the peak of the mo or something. And so a few days later he attempted it again and got it, which is just absolutely extreme. He did it in a time of 7 hours 29. Since then it's been broken. But he did hold the world record in 2021. He famously rode the Alt Tour where he rode the Tour de France, the exact stages and distances all by himself, completely self sufficient, alongside the actual Tour de France. And he ended up beating them to Paris by five days, which was just extreme. He was, you think about how fast the Tour de France riders go and for him to do it solo, completely self sufficient, meaning he was feeding himself, he was with water or food, he was sleeping on his own, he had no external support, he was sleeping at 10. He carried all his equipment with him. He did the entire thing self sufficiently, just like they did back in the 1900s when the tour was starting early 1900s. And in that, in that attempt raised $700,000 for World Bicycle Relief. He's also written a fundraiser for Ukraine where he raised $200,000 for them. And he wrote a thousand kilometers in just 42 hours. As well as conquering the Colorado Trail, which is a 849 kilometer route in the mountains of Colorado where you're averaging 3,000 meters above sea level and you ride this 849 kilometers as fast as you can. And he has the course record doing it in just over three days. In today's episode, we dive into his Entire career, all these incredible achievements. He gives us the most amazing insight into his mindset and his mindset and his personality is a thing. Dad, that we want to touch on because he is. He is a cult figure in cycling, but he is just a fascinating person. He's spent a lot of hours on the bike by himself, and he's a very deep thinker. He's a very interesting thinker. He has a great take on the world. And the lessons he's learned, I think, are just an unbelievable inspiration to any athlete. And he's one of the most inspiring cyclists I've ever seen and ever probably had the privilege of talking to.

Yeah, we were fortunate enough to actually have him as a part of a local tour that has been held here in Melbourne, the Melbourne to Warrnambool. And he rode for the Trivalo team, which was great. Which was called the Trivalo EF team, which we're very chuffed with. Chuffed with. Look, there's a lot, a lot about Locky that is just unbelievable to listen to. And, and he, he talks like he's. He's had a complete lifetime. He talks like a 50, 60 year old because he's experienced so much in his short years already as a cyclist. And when you said that he fell in and out of love with cycling, I don't agree. He's always loved cycling. It's just that his approach to why he was doing it was what he was searching for. And this comes loud and clearly through the podcast. Finding out why you're doing something is going to give you the satisfaction to continue doing that journey. And, and that's what inspires people when they hear him talk. And, and look at what he's. What he's doing with his writing is he's doing it because he wants to and not because he has to. And one of the things he said was he's, he was growing up as a teenager with such winning ness in his, in his racing. He very rarely lost as a junior and, and he was defined by his performance and that was the mistake he was making. So. So it got to a point where no matter how many times he won, he was still not happy because he was really into himself and not. And not having a relationship with anybody else except for him and his bike. And, and he really turned that around and has come a full circle where he gave that, gave that away because he wasn't really happy, even reached the, the level that he wanted to, which was World Tour status, riding as a professional bike rider, which is all he dreamt about for seven years and then he's got there and he's realized that he's not happy. So he's, he's given that away, found out the reasons as to why he loves riding his bike, come back with a different approach and he's such a better human being for it. And, and this is really the story of, of, of what we all should be trying to understand in our own little world as to what inspires us to do what we do. And getting the reason of why you do it is going to be so valuable to enabling you to enjoy what you're doing for forever. So if you can get the reason of what is making you feel like you want to do something, whether it's be a runner or a swimmer or a, or a good dad or whatever, you've just got to understand at some point what makes yourself tick and, and what gives you satisfaction. And for him, he just loves riding his bike. That is the bottom line. He's more happier in his own skin if he's just on his bike. And of course he understands that he has to have relationships now to allow him to do that. So he's got better at that. He's a very shy person, you know, who, who would rather not say anything. He'd rather just listen and watch and perform. But he understands now that's not all that happens in life. You have to actually have to have relationships to share your experiences with. And I think he does this really well and he's really taught himself how to get around the things that were making him unhappy to stop him from riding his bike. And now he's found what makes him happy to ride his bike. And I think it's a really good, a really good lesson to us all. And even me at my age, I'm inspired by listening to him. And I can't wait to see the next part of his journey because it's not over yet. He's still got a contract with EF Education, yet he's doing alternative events and you know, the off road season's looming for him and he's training with a coach now and I just think it's just a great story.

This was a monster episode and for good reason. We were on edge for every second, waiting to hear what would come out of his mouth next. The things he's done and the ultras he's done, the events he's done and how he's gotten through them, I just, are just absolutely gripping and they're hard to comprehend to be Honest. And that's why we actually have spent a lot of time on this intro. I know you probably want us to get to the episode, but we really wanted to paint the picture of who this guy is, if you didn't know him, and really set up the context of this conversation. Because he's just a fascinating character and what he's achieved is incredible so far. And the mindset it took to be able to do what he's done is so insightful and worth listening to. So we hope you enjoy this monster conversation. It's very long and it was very fun to do and very fun to talk to. Locky. So here is the episode with Lachlan Morton. We can't wait for you to hear it. Locke. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks very much for joining us.

Thanks for having me, mate.

We. We normally ask athletes what session they did today. That's kind of our first question for the podcast.

But with you today, I did about three hours, give or take on the bike. It was like a bit of a last minute switcheroo. I did some efforts yesterday that was supposed to like kind of finish me off, but I felt like I had a bit more in the tank. So we kind of devised a bit of a session this morning. I was also catching up with my first ever coach, Graham Sears, so I went around to his place, had a coffee, and then we went and rode for an hour and a half. I was on my mountain bike, he was on his road bike, but we did a little road loop and then I was doing a couple of threshold efforts, like around 15 minutes. But there's no, there's no climb that long, like in town here. And I didn't want to go too long, so I just knocked him out like on the beach. Did two 15 minute thresholds and then. Or actually the second one was a bit longer. I carried on like all the way back home. But yeah, that was basically it to two threshold efforts. Just pretty.

So wait, you're riding on the sand, were you?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's good because you can kind of. You just like gauge the intensity. If you're closer to the water, it's easier. And then the further you get away, the more resistance there is, you know. So if you come up on like a group of walkers or something and you don't want to like, you know, suck their hat off, you kind of.

Like get up and were you sticking. Sticking to power numbers?

Yeah, roughly. I mean, I wasn't like watching it. I kind of dialed in for like the first few minutes to sort of work. What the, the range was. It's because it's, it's always different. Like I was doing flat, you know, it's a bit faster so it's going to be different than doing it on a climb. Um, but yeah, once I kind of got the feeling I just, I wasn't watching the, the power too closely. Just kind of check it every now and then to make sure I hadn't like lost concentration too much. But it's pretty good. I, I also enjoyed it because you have to like kind of focus on what you're doing a bit more rather than just like stare at, stare at the screen. So yeah, like still trying to hit like a target I guess of power. But to be honest I haven't done like any steady state like threshold work yet this year. That was the first session so it was kind of like to see, see where I'm at with that.

Even just to hear you doing sessions is a bit of a change for you. And then we spoke to you after the warning where you said that this whole period is, has been a bit different to what you've done for the last few years. You never really, you never really like going for 2 by 15 minute efforts or prescribed kind of sets. So what's that like doing that again now?

I'm enjoying it mate. I think like compared to when I last was training under a coach, I think I've grown up a lot. And you kind of realize that like the, the sessions you're doing aren't to like impress anyone, you're just trying to get better. Right? Just sort of doing honest work. So I think I used to get too involved with the ego of it and that's kind of why I kind of had to separate myself from structured training a bit. You know, getting too caught up in, in trying to be, you know, break a record every time or just like you know, doing the work to, to like impress the coach or you know, I don't know what really I was trying to do. But yeah, now I kind of understand and I, and I have a better understanding of why I'm doing certain things. Well, I want to know why as opposed to just like I'm going to do this session for X reason and more like, okay, what are we actually trying to achieve here and how are we going to go about doing that? So yeah, I think now I enjoy it. Like I still, you know, like this week I've done, I will only do two sessions like with intervals. The rest is all pretty free. You know, tomorrow just go Endurance somewhere between four and seven hours and you know, head up the coast and see where I get. Like there's no. I have enough of that. That it keeps me long winded way of saying like it's just a nice change and you know, occasionally being accountable is a good thing.

You know, it's, it's. Sorry Jordan. We're going to do this all old podcast I reckon trying to get our questions in over the top of each other. But look, I'm so excited to have Lockie on. And look, just watching your career over the journey, it's almost like you've done a full circle where you started with the intensity and the competitiveness of an absolute beast who just could not get enough of it. And then almost, you almost went a complete different direction where you, you just wanted to ride your bike and, and not be dictated to by this session or that power or. But just the fun of riding your bike. And it's almost like you feel like you've, you've done both of those and now you're ready for a new chapter. Is, is that kind of where you feel you're at?

Yeah, I think I'm just trying to find, I mean you're always striving for that balance, right? I think now that I'm a bit older, I realize that there are still things I'd like to do competitively racing that like, you know, that window doesn't stay open forever and I'm in a position where I can still kind of chase a few of those goals. And they're all goals that I've just set myself for my own personal reasons, you know, like, I know now I don't, I don't have to go and race. Like it would be easy to just go and ride ultras and do adventures full time and you know, at some point I know I will do that. But yeah, I think like just understanding like myself a bit more like, and I know if I, if I stopped racing competitively now that I would still have questions in my head like, of like, you know, what if I'd done this? What if I'd done that and just kind of. I want to make sure they're all put to bed before I'm done, you know, like, because otherwise, you know, you have that question forever. And yeah, I think like through, through the experiencing of, not like the experience of not just pursuing competitive racing, I'm just able to like enjoy the whole, the process of it. You know, I'm very aware that like it's a real privilege to be Able to train and do all that full time. So just kind of making use of the opportunity I have more than anything.

Previously said that racing can bring out the worst side of you, the side that you. Or the version that you typically don't like about yourself, almost that obsession that might have been a few years ago. And so you're kind of saying now you've matured a bit and you can. You can now race again and have these goals without tapping into that version of yourself you don't like.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so far, so good. Never say never. But, like, no, I think, like I said, because I enjoyed the experience and I think I have enough perspective on, like, I don't. I don't judge myself off of the results I get now. You know, like, I don't attach too much of my worth to that. So I'm able to. To not, like, pour every single part of me into, like, pursuing a single goal and have it, you know, be the be all and end all and, you know, at the expense of everything else. I think, like, you know, initially, early when I was racing, I mean, probably from the age of like, 13, all the way through until my early 20s, like, I had that very obsessive personality and, like, training, racing, that that was it for me. And, like, you know, I think in some ways at that point in my life, getting to the top level of racing, like, that served me very well. And there was a lot of, like, kind of reinforcement of that behavior, you know, because you like winning races and getting padded on the back. And then I had to add to, like, come to my own realizations on, like, I can remember, like, having really great results. And then, you know, the same night, you're just in the hotel by yourself and miserable, you know, because you're like, I really don't have anyone else. And so, like, slowly coming to that realization that, like, I need more in my life than results to fulfill me. So I feel like I've developed enough outside of racing and, you know, have enough relationships and people around me that I'm. It would be hard for me to be drawn that far into it again, you know, like, it would be really obvious to me now if, you know.

I was getting to understand you a little bit now. And I really feel we need to go back backwards a bit and just take us into what you saw Locky, as a teenager. What was the mindset he had when he had this unbelievable desire to be competitive and be the best cyclist you could possibly be at 13, 14, what were you thinking? Like, what was your mindset like then? And explain to the listener kind of how. How that's progressing.

I mean, I started cycling because my brother was doing it and I was just copying what he was doing because he's the older brother. So, like, you know, like, oh, yeah, bikes are cool and I'll do that. And then we had, like, a good cycle club here. And yeah, initially it was just like, race on Saturday, do a handicap, like after playing soccer in the morning or whatever. That wasn't much to it. And I just enjoyed the. The racing and the atmosphere and, like, had friends there and it was just like another sport. Like, at that point, I still. I did some triathlons actually, and, like, you know, played rugby at school, believe it or not. But like, yeah, just like, you've got.

The frame for it, don't you?

Yeah, I was.

That.

I was the same size then. But then, yeah, like, I think when we went on a family holiday to Europe in 2003 and we saw like a stage or two of the Tour, and then I kind of realized I was like, oh, wow, this is like a whole thing. And something just like clicked in my head and I was like, oh, that's what I'm gonna do. And I guess it's weird now, upon reflection, at the time, I don't know, like, I think I had really good, supportive parents who, like, any dream you had was possible. And I just believed. I was like, all right, that's what I'm doing. There's no plan B. Like, I'm just. That's what I got to do. And then I had, like, a really good coach and basically just took whatever he prescribed me and then just added like another half onto it. I was like, I'm gonna be, you know, I want to be better than that and I can handle it, so I'm going to do it. So, yeah, by the time I was like, 15, I was riding probably 30 hours a week, going to school crazy. And just like, really? That's all I was doing, you know, like, because I'd wake up at 4:30, train 5 to 8, and then like, rush to get to school on time and then go to sleep at school, come to, like, yeah, sleep. It was good. Once I got to, like, year 11 and 12, when you had the free periods, I was like, sleep a little bit. And then, yeah, like, mom would come to pick me up. Instead of picking me up, she'd just bring my bike and then I'd just ride home. So I was just like, that's what I was doing. You know, and like you'd win like a state title and then like that was a big thing and then you're like, oh wait, I win a national title. And then like it just built like that. And to, for me like the, there was never any feeling of like, I never took like two seconds to like pat myself on the back because I was always like, well none of this is down until I'm a professional in Europe, you know. So yeah, I like had a pretty. I mean it's a weird thing because like there's a lot about that mindset that I still employ. Some of it, you know, because I think it's like there is some of it that is useful in that, like setting goals, you know, kind of prioritizing yourself a little bit. Like sometimes that is necessary. But you know, I definitely was on the extreme end of that.

Yeah.

And you know, like, I mean I still like had good friends at school and like, you know, did a lot of things that kids do, but it was always underwritten by like, oh no, I'm gonna go training, I've got a race. Like there's a bigger, there's a bigger goal here. So yeah, it's, it's funny to think back at that like me being in Port Macquarie telling like my high school teachers that it didn't matter because I was going to race him. Idiot. But yeah, like that was, yeah, that's, I guess. And like I was, when it came to racing I was like super competitive, you know, and like losing. Yeah, when I got beat I hated it, like didn't do well. And like I think over the course of just that period like cycling became my identity and winning became my identity. So that I think at some point when I attached all my self worth to that, then, then it became unhealthy, you know, I don't want to skirt.

Skim over though that detail of the obsession you had, especially writing three hours before school every day as a 14 year old. You know, that's not, that's not normal and, but it got you to where you wanted to be because you're on the world tour at 20, 19, 20 and that's what made you one of the best young cyclists in the country. How did that shape your development? Getting up every day by yourself, Self motivated, self disciplined, isolated rides for three hours in the dark. I know you've spoken about watching the sunrise every morning is a pretty funny experience for a teenager to do every day for all those years. There was obviously that unhealthy obsession side to it, but how else did that shape your development and kind of the person you are now?

I think I'm still able to work pretty hard, you know, and, like, I don't need all. All the motivation. I need to be slowed down. I don't need to be motivated to go and get out and do it. I think, like, a lot of the experiences I had, like you said, like, riding, being able to, like, every training session, I would do a lot by myself. So you're kind of creating these rides and experiences every morning that you kind of have ownership of that. Like, you know, it was strange to get to school and, like, you felt like you'd already kind of had this whole day and no one else has done anything. And, like, I definitely still enjoy that aspect. Like, I've carried that over in that, like, I like having ownership over your own ride because you can go and create any experience you want. You know, it could be, you know, a horrible, you know, experience of, like, breathing through your eyes, doing VO2 efforts. But it could also be like, you know, watching the sunrise in a spot you haven't and riding a different road, getting coffee somewhere. And, like, you know, it's just an experience that you own. It's like you get to create one of those every day. So I definitely still have taken that from that period of time. Like, that kind of taught me that, like, if you're. If you're willing to, like, get past that first 15 minutes at 4:30am that sucked. To get out of bed and, like, get the shoes on and then get out the door. Like, once you're out the door, it's, like, always worth it, you know?

Did you miss many days? How many days would you miss?

Oh, mate. Numb. Barely any. Yeah, you know, like, I think there's one. I got, like, Ross river virus when I was young, and I think that's the only time I ever had more than a week off, you know. But no, I was very, like. And I also grew up in a household. Like, my brother was doing similar thing. My parents are very, like. I mean, they're still up at, like, five in the morning, like, getting ready. And, like, I don't know. It wasn't, like, abnormal, you know.

Were you riding with your brother in any of those days or you go separately, or was it too. You're too competitive for each other?

We go separately. Yeah. We were too, like, competitive. And I mean, he was like. Also, I think he's two years older than me, so he was stronger than me, so, like, he was doing his thing. I did My thing. And then like we had like a group. We'd meet like probably twice a week. We'd probably do that together. But no, we never. We never really trained together unless, like, seriously was taking us motor pacing or like something out of the ordinary. But mainly we were both just kind of like grinded away by ourselves.

As a 14 year old. He's a 16 year old, obviously physically stronger. When you were 16 and he was 18, were you very similar? Did you catch up? Were you equal in ability?

It probably took me till I was like 17 or 18, till I kind of got to where he was at. My whole, like, mindset was like, I just gotta beat whatever he'd done at my age. You know something I think he want to stay titled when he was too old and I'm gonna win two and then like, you know, trying to like, validate myself in that way. But now he would always, like, he would always show me that he was stronger than me.

You definitely say that in every film you made as well. That still carries on to how old you are.

And I think, like, in terms of the both of us, like, he had more natural ability than I have. He was like a. He was a beast. But yeah, I just kind of kept chipping away at it.

So you achieved your first part of your dream and you get on to a world tour team at. I think you were 20 or 19.

Yeah.

What was it specifically about that first year on the world tour that. And I'm really careful using this word, but that you resented so much? Because I know that there was probably, or I'm guessing there was probably a bit of guilt about the fact that you weren't enjoying it, but you. But it was everything you kind of wanted and you. You really weren't having a good time.

Yeah, I think it was probably more like it just became a reflection of myself, you know, because I'd spend all that time getting there and then you get there and then you kind of already lose a bit of purpose because you're like, all right, well, I'm here now. I should be like, fulfilled and I'm not. And then you kind of have to, like, reflect on yourself when you're like, why? Then you're like, ah, well, because I don't have many friendships. You know, I'm like on the other side of the world from anyone I really know, like, barely speak to my parents, you know, all those things that like, kind of came as a product of this singular focus and then achieving the goal and then, you know, not being fulfilled and Then taking stock and then being like, ah, there's actually a lot about me that is unfulfilled, you know, and kind of realizing that even though like initially in that first year, it's like, okay, you kind of switching lanes into World Tour speed. So like, you do get your head kicked in a bit, so you're already like a bit down. And then you, you kind of go back to that, like, you know, that idea that all your self worth's tied up in the results. So like, you kind of get lost in that, like, ah, I don't have these results to like, grab onto to like, you know, make me feel good. And then so then I just kind of switched and was like, oh, once I get results, it'll solve itself out. And then I started getting results like at the end of that first year and then still felt the same way. And I was like, okay, something's like, not right here. And it was actually at the end of that first year that Gus and I did like a long ride to Uluru. And then that, like, that was kind of the tipping point, I think, when like, I was like, all right, I need to actually change something here in my life. And then that kind of resulted in me taking like a very different path. That. Yeah, I mean, I never set out to. I mean, I was just. My idea was I'll just keep going till I win the Tour. But then like, that definitely took a bit of a right turn there.

Right turn is an understatement. It went a completely different journey, which I'm sure you're grateful for. Now, about how it went.

Yeah.

If anyone hasn't seen the thereabouts films, they are absolute must watch for any cyclist. It's that first one would. You'd say a very. Yeah, like you just said, a tipping point in your career and your life where you've come home and it was pre season. Supposed to be pre season, and you've done your own training camp with your brother Gus, and you guys rode from Port Mac to Uluru together and that probably started making a name for yourself in the old cycling world. And talk to us about that tipping point and could you fill in the details of. I think you'd emailed home and said you want to quit, and then your brother talked you out of quitting because he'd done the same thing a couple years ago. Talk us through that part of the story.

Yeah, it's like 10 years ago now, so it's a little vague, but yeah, I mean, basically I decided I was done with it. And then, yeah, Gus had been like, kind of helping me because he, he at that point left the sport. So he was very aware of like, you know, the different thoughts and he's kind of like, see at, see at this time you have, I think I had a two year contract, so. And then, you know, I was going to be back for the off season and we were like, why don't we go and just do something totally different? And then that just turned. I mean, we didn't know how else to really spend time together apart from going for a ride. So then I was just like always somewhere epic we can ride. And we just put this ride together very last minute and invited a couple of people last minute to drive like a camper trailer. And then we just headed off. And I think like there was a number of things, I think Gus being in a very different stage of life, but then us both being able to like share this bond over bikes. And then just like, I mean before that riding was always like a session, right? You're always trying to achieve something towards a goal of racing. Well, and then this didn't make sense from a training perspective. Remember the coach I had at the time was like pierced and like it wasn't like the right thing to be doing, you know, before your second World Tour season or whatever in December. But yeah, that's why I loved it. And then like, I don't know, it just like I had ownership over what I was doing a bit like I decided to do it, there was no reason to it. And then I think just like the experience that came out of that of like the ride element became secondary to like the experience, like the, the places it took us, the people we met, the like kind of reflection on yourself and like, you know, that that amount of time just kind of riding long straight outback roads, like, is a lot of time for like introspective kind of thoughts. And yeah, I just had this, this experience in like, it was only a two week period, but like, it just really shifted my thoughts on like bikes and I realized it wasn't like cycling. I resented it was just the way I was approaching it, you know, and all of that was more a reflection of me, not the sport. So that kind of jolted me to be like, I need to take a different approach. So yeah, that was like the catalyst for everything that's happened the 10 years since.

It really identified in your mind, didn't it, that you still loved riding the bike, that that's the bottom line. You, you still had a passion for riding Your bike. It was just your attitude and your approach to what was the purpose of doing.

Yeah, totally. And I mean, I think before that I thought I was burned out on the bike and then I realized that I hadn't even scratched the surface, you know, like I'd explored like 1% of what the possibilities with cycling. You know, even though I'd ridden all around the world and raced like a whole bunch of different things, like I realized that I was like, ah, I've only experienced a bike in one way. There's no way you can spend your whole life riding bikes and not be burned out on it. It's just that variety, right, and finding different, different pursuits and motivations that keep you fulfilled. So.

You went on to do another one in Colombia and for those listening, you've just got to watch these videos. It's just unbelievable viewing and the people you meet and the roads you ride on and the altitude you're at and the conditions that you're. And look you guys, at the Uluru, it looked like you just non conformed, you threw your helmets off, you just wore cycling nicks with no tops and you were just, you know, in the breeze sort of having some fun on your bikes like, like you were Both, you know, 15, 16 year olds again and sitting behind the camper van doing 60Ks an hour for 300Ks one day. And you know, stuff like that just seemed like that was a game changing moment for you and the Colombian experience and you know, having to, I remember seeing your rest day was like 2000 meters of climbing and 130k a day and it wasn't really a rest day but you went along with anyway. And so these experiences seem to be the catalyst for you to find a different way of looking and getting your love for cycling back. Would that be true?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like I kind of discovered that I was really enjoying that aspect of it and then it was a process of me trying to convert that passion back to racing and like working out how I went, how I could go about, like still, I guess being a professional athlete because I, I knew it, that's the life I wanted that, that lifestyle is, you know, I wanted to be out my bike every day and probably more so than ever at that point, and then working out how I could still have these experiences, still maintain a level in racing. And then that was a whole journey in itself, you know, But I think it, from that point on I could lean on the fact that I just loved riding my bike. Like ever since then, like for me it's never going to be an issue of being motivated to go on my, my bike and ride. You know, like for me still the ideal day is to like wake up, have no commitments outside of writing and then I'll be able to spend the whole day out writing, you know. And that all comes from the fact that, you know, I have a passion for it that doesn't involve like a, a result having to justify me being out there. It's just more of a pure love for, for pedaling and being outside. So yeah, I think like those, those trips were like the, the starting point for that. But then even out of those, like the way I trained and the way I approached racing was shifting pretty massively just outside of the films. But during that like period of time.

Your passion for it is infectious. And if you ever want motivation to go for a four, six or eight hour ride, you just watch these and you just cannot wait to get on your bike. You touched on before the fact that you struggled with a bit of an identity crisis, I'd say, and that all you knew about yourself was cycling and performance. And then you get over to Europe and you're alone, you've got nothing outside of cycling. And in the films you actually say that in that year leading up to the ride to Uluru with Gus, you'd spent a total of 12 hours together or something in a whole year. How much did that trip change things you value outside of cycling, especially your relationship with him. Obviously you got to spend a lot more time together in the years post that got on Jelly Belly pro cycling team together. Yeah. How much did that shift? I guess the way you see the world and yourself?

I mean, I think out of that process I just valued relationships a lot more in general. You know, I think like before that I just had the tendency, it's pretty stubborn and a loner I would say. Like I enjoyed just doing things my own way, working it out myself and very rarely asking for help. Like I didn't like to have to rely on anyone. And I think like just through that process of, you know, spending more time with the people that you love and realizing that like those are really the interactions and moments of your life that like mean the most and then shifting your priorities to be like, well I need to, I need to actually put time into this myself, you know, like it's not, it can't just be this, this one sided thing. So I think yeah, like, you know, and that, that also went for at that point, Rachel, who's I've been now been Married to. For eight years. We. She was like, oh, we'd only been seeing each other maybe a year, maybe not even at that point. And just kind of realizing that, like, that should take priority over everything else because that's ultimately what was making me the most happy, was having these relationships. So I think, yeah, I just valued relationships more, I guess.

There's a great story. I wonder if you can tell it, the specifics of it, where you were actually in Europe and you. You wanted to come home and see Rachel because you were just kind of miserable and you just flew home mid. Mid season and then flew back to Europe the night before a race and. And talk us about your emotions then. And did you have any guilt about just leaving and sneaking off?

The year after I did that ride, I still have one more year on Garmin, and that was probably the lowest point for me that next year, like kind of feeling stuck in it. And I really resented having to train and race and live there at that point. I was also like, pretty young and immature. Like ultimately I wasn't in. You know, there's worse places to be stuck and worse things to be doing. But at that point it was like I needed. I'd already decided I wanted to get out of it and I kind of felt trapped in it. And yeah, actually I remember that specific day I was out, right. I was attempting to go do like a training session and then just canned it halfway through and stopped it. This little bar was just the only place I could go to get wi fi. And I just like booked a flight for like that. That night, I think, you know, I just went home and packed like a backpack and I just caught a taxi to like you said. I think I caught the train, the Barcelona and then just got on a flight home. Turned up at Rachel's, like share house in Sydney a couple days later. But I think that's kind of just going back to what I was saying before. It's just like I'd come to that realization that I wasn't putting my energy into the things I needed to be. So I started to. That was my way of prioritizing. Was pretty imbalanced at that point, but I think I spent like five days in Sydney and then quarter flight back. And I remember, I think I got back to my apartment like midnight or something, and then I had to get up and go to. It was like Romandy. Romandy or one of those like hard early season Swiss races. And I just went and I was rooming with Rowan. Rowan Dennis.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I just Like, I was like, I had to tell someone, you know, And I was like, I haven't been riding. I was in Australia two days ago.

Like, what did he say?

He just laughed. He's like, you're. You're an idiot. Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. In my head with the way I was feeling and, like, it was. It feels like it was very justified. Obviously, like, on reflection, it's pretty irrational and, like, there's probably better ways to go about it, but at that point, I didn't have many ways to. I mean, I wasn't experienced enough with my own emotions and, you know, I couldn't. It was the only thing I could do.

So. Yeah, okay. So there's a. There's a bit of a gap in the story where throughout those. These next few years, you're doing. You're finding a lot of love for the adventure stuff, but you're still on a. On a pro team. So you leave Garmin and you go to Jelly Belly and you and your brother start riding together. Then you win the Tour of Utah, you're riding unbelievably again, and then you get picked up by Dimension Data, and things are going really well on the roads where we were at mentally. And that year with Jelly Belly or those couple of years, did you find love again for road racing and you were keen to get back into it and give the world to a good crack? What happened there?

Yeah, I mean, I spent two years with Jelly Belly, like you said, I was with my brother. And that kind of came about because I knew. I knew I wasn't ready to stop. Not, I think, mentally at that point, I could have stopped and, like, I mean, racing wise and gone and done something else and probably would have been okay with it, but I wasn't ready to stop in that. I mean, I don't have any other skills. You know, I had, like, a high school education, and I've been pretty committed to it. So I was like, this is the one way I know I can make an income. And, you know, like, Rachel had committed to coming to live with me. Like, there's a lot of, like, things that I was like, look, I need to race another year here just to work out what my next move is. And Gus was also at a similar position with the job he was having. He wanted to move on, but wasn't sure what he's going to do. So I was like, why don't you come and race? And then we basically just ask any team. Asked any team in the US Like, Any team that was willing to take Gus as well as me, then we would sign for them, and Jelly Belly took us on. And, yeah, it was just a totally different environment. Like, Danny Van Hout, who runs that team, he kind of runs it like a family. You know, it's very small. There's only. I think, at that point, we were, like, 10 riders. And then Matty Rice, he's, like, the other director there, and that's kind of it. It's just us and going on the road, going to host, housing, and racing around the States, and just through being in that environment and taking that year to kind of realize what a privilege racing professionally was and just, like, assessing where things have gone wrong for me in terms of, like, what my motivations were. And I basically just took a season of being, like, I was sort of racing. I mean, I was racing a full season, but I wasn't fully focused on it. And then just through the process of. Of doing that and spending time with people who just love cycling for cycling sake, as well as doing, you know, more stuff off road, just in training and whatever, I just kind of hit this nice spot where I knew I wanted to, like, race hard again and train hard again and get to a point where I could, like, get back to, like, a really high level and at least have the opportunity to, like, race the World Tour again and be. Even if it got to that point. And I said no, like, and then I could be like, okay, I can put it to bed. But that was the. The motivation for my second year. And I was also, like, really, like. I mean, I wanted to do it for myself, and then I also wanted to do it for all of, like, everyone at Jelly Belly, because they put so much belief in me and just gave me time to do what I wanted to do. And then, you know, I brought gas on and, like, just. They became like a family, you know? And so we kind of all clicked that second year, and we were like, all right, we'll take on anyone anywhere, and we won a shitload of races. And, you know, it was a really just amazing thing to be a part of. Like, I was lucky enough to be the guy who got to finish it off all the time and, like, win a bunch of races, but we just had an amazing crew that year, and it was just impossible not to be in love with racing in that environment, you know, because, like, you would race hard, have a plan, and we'd all have a few beers, and then, like, you know, come up with another stupid idea of, like, how we're going to win this next race. And then like, you know, it's just like very. It just reminded me of, of like being a kid driving around Australia with different races and like, just like there was no pressure, there was no ego. It was just like, all right, like no one's making much money. Like the, the. Anyone who's doing it at that point was doing it for the passion, you know. So, yeah, that's, that's how I like kind of, I guess fell in love with road racing again was through that pro, like that specific group of people. And during that time, like, yeah, my passions outside of that also flourished because like, Danny just gave me the, the freedom to go and do whatever I wanted to do off road and made it easy in terms of like, if we were doing a ride that was sponsored by someone different. He was just like, look, it's a totally different thing. Doesn't matter. Just made it all really easy. And yeah, like at the end of that, after winning Utah, then there was opportunity to race with Dimension Data. And then like once you had the contract on the table, it was like, all right, now I need to decide if like, mentally I'm ready to go and do this. And it was a pretty big, like there was a point, a part of me that was just gonna stay in Jelly Belly, you know, like, because I was having such a good time. But then I just, I knew myself well enough at that point. I was like, there's still like a little bit of like not what if but just like go back, experience it on your own terms with like this new mindset and see, see what it's like, you know, and it's like a two year commitment. Like Rachel was going to come with it to Europe. It's like the whole thing is going to be very different. So I, like, I took that, that opportunity to go and kind of do things on my own terms.

What was it like?

It was great, you know, like I, I never, I had like, results. I was happy with the, I never could shift into that full killer mindset again that I think not is required, but for me to like perform at that level in that specific thing, that's the mindset I need. And I wasn't willing to go back there. So yeah, I had like a really good, like, enjoyed the time to the point where I got to the end of like those two years and was like, I know I could like perform at this level at the very sustainable rate and just have like a career doing this. You know, I'm not going to be winning races, but I'm going to be helping people to win races. And like, to be honest, that's a position I like better and I was very comfortable in it. So it was like a very different experience than I'd had initially, you know, years before.

It's. It's a. It's a bit of a turn, isn't it? And I get the feeling that your maturity as you're going through these experiences was really helping you understand that it wasn't all about results. It was more about the relationships you share those results with. And that was evident with the Jelly Belly, wasn't it? That you were a bunch of guys all with the same goal and you were sharing the experience. And sure, you might have been finishing the races and winning, but you were valuing the group approach of. Of that. That relationship, wasn't it? And that's what you were lacking earlier.

Totally. Like, it was. The whole thing was shared, you know, And I still remember very distinctly I won the last stage of Utah. And you, like, you cross this climb and descend down into Park City, Empire Pass. And I was solo there, so I knew I was going to win for like, whatever 10 minute descent all the way into town. And so, like, you could have. It's very rare you get that, like, and you're just like, I'm just gonna like, super tack freewheel on my way down here. And you could like, reflect on all of that. And I knew, like, my parents were there at the finish. Gus had, like, helped set me up to win. Rachel was there. And then plus, like, the fact it was with Danny, it was going to be the biggest result for them ever. And I was like, I don't think I'll ever top this. And, well, I knew I was like, there's no, there's no win I could have personally that I'll be more fulfilled with than this. You know, this is 100, so it's very rare to ever have that experience. Maybe you'll never have that experience again, you know, of being so present in that moment. And like, you said it was because of all the people you were sharing it with. I wasn't like, oh, yeah, like kick to Lansky's ass up there. I didn't really care about that. Like, there wasn't. So, yeah, that was like a. As you said it was. It was special for, like, a lot of different reasons.

I think you've gone on record saying that you could win a stage in a Grand Tour and it wouldn't top that for those reasons. And I guess you Stand by that.

Yeah, totally. Because, I mean, like, you never have that environment at an elite level. It just doesn't exist. You know, like, you can get teams where it's close to that and you have a really good group. And I think of all the teams, like the team I'm on now, the ef, like, we have very, A very, like, nice relationship, but you never have that close knit, tight, total family, you know, because it's like those bigger teams are a big machine, you know, and there is, you know, 80 to 100 employees and it's, It's. There's still an element of, all right, I'm on a contract. I'm looking after myself a bit. It just exists. So, yeah, like, even I think it would be very hard to replicate outside of that specific, you know, little magic season that we had there with every.

Year you were gaining maturity, experience, let's say wisdom and probably congruency in what you wanted and what you enjoyed and what you didn't enjoy, and to the point now where you're so congruent in the way you want to go about things. But that's easy in hindsight to look back and go, well, this was the answer I needed. But at the time, did you have people in your ear saying anything along the lines of, you know, you're wasting your talent or. Or, you know, you should be feeling a bit more grateful for the opportunities you have. Did you have any of that in your ear or in your own head?

No, they're always in the comment section.

I can't imagine you pay much attention to them.

Yeah, that's. That was kind of my, you know, education on not paying too much attention to that. But no, it was always hard. It's hard. I wish I could say you could just block that out and be like, oh, that's just someone. But it definitely. You could hear someone say that, and it does make you think, or am I wasting my talent? Am I doing the wrong thing? But then you just have to lean back on, like, the fact that it's your life at the end of the day and, like, no one knows what makes you more fulfilled than yourself, you know? And I think, like, traditionally, yes, every, like, strong, good cyclist has used their ability to compete and race others. But I think that there is, like, an environment that exists now where you can use your talent in other ways. And, like, I think I've been able to have more of an impact by not pursuing racing than pursuing it, you know, like, as an ultimate outcome. But I also always thought I was Like, I know, like, the most talented cyclist out there has never ridden a bike. You know, I'm sure there's hundreds of guys out there who just never found cycling, you know, and no one's fucking crawling into their DMs, telling them, Give me a break.

So. And we want to really start diving into kind of the impact you've been having with all the alternative events and racing that you. You've been doing kind of since that period. So after a couple years with Dimension, you. You. You find ef, which is a team that. Whose values that you really fell in love with pretty quickly, right? Where they're not just about results on the bike, although any pro team has to be about that. You love their value of what just cycling is. And so how did that relationship form? And then what was. What was the original agreement with them? Did they just say to you, we want you to go race the races you want? Did you ask them for that permission? Did it just unfold organically?

It was like a real. It's a long story, but basically, I had a relationship with. With Rafa through. They'd, like, done some screenings of the films we'd made and that. I think they were also, at that point, my shoe sponsor. So, like, I had a dialogue with them, and Gus and I had actually come up with this very, like, basically the idea that is now, like, the alternate calendar and worked on pitching it to, like, sponsors before, and nothing had come of it. And then this deck that we had had, like, found its way around and, like, gone through Finney's agent somewhere, and then, like, basically got pitched back to me through Rapper, and I was like, I know this. Like, this is it. This is. Yeah, this is a good idea. I think someone should do this. And I mean, like, the credit to them was they were actually going to bring it to life. And they. I think they'd been sponsoring sky up until that point, and then they wanted to do something different. And like I said, at that point, I'd gotten very comfortable, like, racing the way I was. And I was like, I can go and do one of these trips with Gus every year. And, like, it's. It's kind of like a nice little thing I got going on. And then they had. There was this opportunity to go and race still World Tour, but then, like, take on a whole bunch of other things. And I remember, like, the conversation because it was also, like, kind of a risk because, like, at that point, it was like, well, what if I go and race an Ultra? And then I'm Just slow forever, you know, and then I can't race. And then, like, everyone's sick of this idea. Six months, and then, like, that was that, you know, so there was, like, a degree of risk that. But I. I was also very aware. I was like, this opportunity won't come on twice. So, yeah, basically, Rafa got me onto EF with the idea that I was going to be the. The guy to, like, take on these other races. And, yeah, I kind of, like, I just grabbed it with two hands because I was like, this is a very unique opportunity, and I really want to make this. I want to, like, prove this concept, you know, as well as, like, enjoy all these different experiences I can have racing. But I was like, I really want this to work because I think this is a better. A better format for professional teams. So, yeah, that's sort of how that, like, opportunity came up. And in that first year, I think we raced. Unbound was our first race, and then I did the GB Duro, which was like an ultra race in the uk, and then Leadville. I can't remember what else we did, but basically it wasn't, like, huge. And I was still racing, like, a full road calendar. But it was great. We just had, like, a really passionate group of people within the team. The team really, like, like, grabbed the idea and ran with it, too, which was important. It wasn't just like, oh, they're trying to keep a sponsor happy. They were like, no, they actually bought into the idea. And then we had a good group of people at Rafa, and then Housie was on board with it, too, so I had, like, a bit of a partner in crime. And, yeah, we just kind of went for it. And I like, you know, that season was, you know, one. I'll always. It'll always be, like, a very special season because I was able to, like, race well on the road and then still do all this other new stuff and kind of prove that idea that I had, that it was possible to race well, be happy, and. And use the bike to also explore all in one season.

You know, I was gonna say, did you find in some of those. When you got back onto the World Tour races, you'd done a whole lot of endurance stuff with the old alternative style of mountain biking and gravel riding. How did you cope with the intensity? Did your body. Did you quickly get back to speed with just a couple of little races here and there, or was it you thinking, God, I've done so much endurance here that I just don't have that quick reaction?

Yeah, it didn't like, I think at that point, like even since then the World Tour racing has become more explosive. So at that point it's still explosive, but it wasn't quite as like polarized as it is now. And I could get away with it a lot more. And I found that like, because I was always used to doing such big volume anyway because I just like being out on my bike, you know, Like I would still do 12 to 1200 to 1400 hours a year on my bike. So it wasn't like new for me to go and do big long things. So I, I, for whatever reason, I managed it really well. And that was the first year I'd kind of stopped working with the coach because it was just, it was going to be too hard to basically work out, you know, like there wasn't really someone there who had experience of like, okay, how long do I need to rest after an ultra? You know, like I think the, if you looked at like the numbers of it, I think the first day or days, I think a 30, 30 something hours of like GBG row the TSS was like 1600 or something like, and they were just like, oh, you just ruined for the year. Now you just back it up the next day and you can do it again. So then like, like, oh, well maybe you're not, you know, and then I could turn around from that and then I think I want to stage at Utah like a month later or something. So like you could still like it was possible. But it just, for me at that point it involved just a lot of like feeling it out, you know. And I did use like, like racing as my intensity. So I'd always just find like whatever the next demand was, I would just approach that and not think beyond that. So, okay, now I'm switching from trying to be, you know, I have like a two week Runway to an ultra. So I'm like, all right, well I'm not gonna be able to just cram a whole bunch of stuff in, but I should probably go on two really long rides and make sure I know how to set up camp quick and like do those things that I'm like, all right, that's my focus now. And then once that's finished, I'll be like, okay, the next race is Leadville. That's six hours, a couple of threshold, like and then I would just focus it like that and then find local crits or something to just kind of like be the kick up the ass before I had to like get out there and do it. Properly again. So, yeah, I think in hindsight it was all. I was making it up as I went along, but worked out weirdly, our theory would.

Would be that you could only do that because of the insane bass you had, the insane endurance that you trained for. You know, if someone didn't do any hours you were doing, they couldn't just step up for a couple of weeks into a, into a specific event. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, maybe. I think, like it. It always helps to have a really big aerobic base. I think you can be most flexible from that. And I've always been someone who. I adapt like really quickly to intensity because of that, because I don't do it all the time. So like, it's such a stimulus that your body adapts quite quickly and when you take the, the foot off the gas of the volume, that your body freshens up quite quickly and then you're pretty moldable, I think. But I also think that, like, it wouldn't be an absolute requirement because there's so many ways to approach it. It's just a matter of understanding how your body works. Because especially with ultra stuff, it's so. It's so little of it depends on like physical ability. Not little. I mean it. Of all the disciplines, it counts the least. It's so much about like your mindset and your experience and the way you execute the race. So there's a lot of like, wiggle room for, you know, not ideal preparation and that kind of thing. And you can get away with just like how you, how you approach the race itself. And then, yeah, understanding, I think for then going back to shorter stuff, it's like looking more so what the demand is for that particular event. And then you're like, okay, well this is the time frame I have, so what's going to be the most bang for my buck? And for me that might be something totally different than the next person, but I think if you approach it in that way, you can be. It's very hard to be. Well, I think it's impossible to be a hundred percent, like prepared for everything, but I think it's really possible to be 90% prepared for a lot of things.

And it has to be said that you in that period, I mean, you did the Vuelta in 2017 with Dimension, and then in 2020 you did the Giro with EF. So in the middle of all this, you know, you're, you're doing a Grand Tour, which is just remarkable. How was that experience doing three Grand Tour within all these races?

I guess, like The. The Vuelta was still. I was very much a road program, so that was, like, kind of straightforward, except everyone got sick. And I think after, like, it was only like, eight days or something, we were down to three riders, so that was a weird experience for that. Then that was my first Grand Tour, so, like, my. My whole. I didn't really have my many objectives, just, like, getting to it. So, like, we. It was pretty strange. We had this huge theme bus still and, like, hanging out on there. But, yeah, then, like, doing the. The Giro, that was off the back of. I did an ultra in Spain called badlands. It's like 7,800k gravel event. I think there was a pretty quick turnaround there, maybe three weeks, and it was at the end of the year. And I kind of made some mistakes in that preparation because I was too gung ho. I think I was too, like, focused on proving myself to make the team instead of, like, being like, okay, well, if I make the team, I need to. I want to have goals for myself. I don't want to just get through it again. So I didn't allow enough recovery for that specific, like, Jira. So, I mean, it was still a really cool experience to do. Like, I could do my job and just. I didn't have any personal ambitions in it, which I think if you're gonna commit to being at that high level, you still need to have some, you know, goals in there to, like, really. Otherwise you're sort of like, what am I doing? But no, I mean, like, I like the Giro because, you know, like, the transfers along. Sometimes you don't get much sleep. Like everyone. I always do well when everyone gets slower. And I can kind of, like, that's the. The way I've won all the best races I've won is when everyone gets slow enough to where I can beat them. And the Giro is good like that because everyone starts complaining about, like, this, that, and I'm like, man, we still got, like, chef cooked meal, and we still got a rum. Like, who cares? We slept hours. Like, everything else was pretty nice. So now I love the Jira and, like, I think of all the. In my head of, like, all the. The coolest road races and, like, what you imagine road racing being growing up, like, in Europe, like, the Giro is that, you know, in every sense of the. You know, the experience. It's just, like, the crowds, the stages are epic and long. Like, you know, the Stelvio in the snow. Like, all of those things that. Yeah, you get to. You get to live that childhood dream. A lot at that race. So it was definitely cool to go and do that. But there was so much of, I mean, that's just the way my brain works. You're constantly thinking about, like, oh, if I did this again, like, what mistakes did I make in preparation for this? That I can't do exactly what I want to win this race. But I mean, to get through it, like, I'm pretty hard to kill. There was never a question of whether I'd get through it. But I think through that process, I realized that I didn't want to just get through races, you know, because I could. I wanted to, if I was going to be there, I wanted to be able to properly race races.

I love that comment of, you know, we're still getting, we're still in a comfy bed, we're still getting six hours sleep. Because you've done so many events where you're, you're not getting that whatsoever. You're sleeping a wet tent on the ground like in the Alt Tour, or you, you're riding for three days straight in Colorado and kind of want to start touching on those, going, yeah, I.

Mean, I think you kind of, you get like conditioned to this idea that, like, everything has to be perfect in order for you to be able to, you know, perform. But I've had so many strange experiences where everything's been, like, so, you know, inopportune and somehow, like, you just end up having this amazing six hours, you know, and you're just like, oh, wow. Like, it doesn't. Not that like, everything is important, especially when it comes to performing at elite level. But you realize that your body is very adaptable and like, you can, you can approach it, you know, in a lot of different ways and still have a decent performance.

And that's the mindset too, isn't it? Like, if you've got the brain to think these things through, when a roadblock is put in front of you, like a long, you know, commute from stage to stage or crappy, crappy accommodation, you've just got to put that to the side, don't you? And the mind is going to be more important than the physicalness of what's happening.

Yeah, totally. And I mean, at that point, like, all those things are being dictated to you. You don't have control over them anyway, you know, so you, all you have is your ability to improvise and just adapt to whatever it is and then get on with it. Because, you know, the more you dwell on the things that you think are impacting you, the more they will impact you.

I want to keep diving into this because what you, what you do is essentially you've proven so many times how you're kind of defying training principles and you're kind of defying recovery principles. And I want to use an example like the Alt Tour where you rode the Tour de France solo completely self sufficiently. I remember at the time SBS would do a little preview on it before each stage each night and they'd say, here's where Lachie is up to compared to the pros. And yeah, it was awesome. And I remember every time you'd come on, I actually couldn't comprehend what, what you were doing because it was so extreme. I remember just going, something's, I'm missing something here, you know, because he's. And you're riding in fucking sandals.

And I was going, what?

I was just gone. And they would describe how, yeah, it's self sufficient so no one can help you. You're feeding yourself, you're stopping in stores to feed yourself, just like they did in 1903. And you're transferring yourself between stages and you beat the peloton to Paris. And the shoe thing is kind of what stood out for me because you were getting real bad knee pain in the cleats. So you, then you switched to sandals, you bought some sandals in a store and you rode on flat pedals to try and rest your knee in those moments. I know you've spoken about, your whoop data was saying every day just how extreme fatigue you were. And this is why I started with saying that you kind of recall, define recovery principles. How are you, how are you getting through that mentally? How are you digging deeper? What is, what are your strategies and what are you, what are you saying to yourself on those 12 hour days? You're riding ridiculous times by yourself. Sometimes you have freezing cold, your stuff was soaked from the night before when you've been sleeping in a tent.

Yeah.

What's going through your head?

I mean, the overriding thing has to be like a constant awareness that you are there because you want to be like that has to kind of underwrite everything, otherwise it won't work. And just you're never looking like further than the next thing, whatever that is, where you're going to fill your bottles. Then the next thing might be, all right, where am I going to find food four hours down the road? And then the next thing is, where am I going to find somewhere to sleep? Or the next thing might be, how am I going to get up over this hill like it's very like, you have to just break it down to very small bits and you kind of realize that there's only so much, like, fatigue you can have. That makes sense. Like, it gets to a point and it's never much worse. And then once you, you get. You kind of spend three or four days getting all the way down, and then once you kind of hit the, the bottom, then your body starts to adapt and you actually, it starts to get easier, but it never gets to a point where like, it becomes fully easy. And that's like the trick you kind of play with yourself you like, because you start to have good moments and then you're like, ah, I'm out of it. You know, and then you let your guard down and then everything switches and you feel like again and then like, you know, so it's kind of. I've realized that, like, you, no matter what, like, you, you just kind of go through ups and downs constantly and your ability to, like, keep momentum in what you're doing kind of relies on not getting too carried away with the good and bad moments and minimizing, you know, those lows as much as you can and having strategies to, like, pull yourself out of those harder moments. Then the quicker you can turn them around, the nicer the experience is, but also just the, the quicker you go generally. So I'm not really on this, like, belief of like, oh, like, like one of my teammates, he gave me the. Or he recommended I like, listen to the David Goggins or that guy. There's that really, like, lean into the hardship or whatever. And I was trying to listen to it during the ultra, I just couldn't. Like, I was just like, this is just not the way I operate. Not to say it doesn't work for some people, but for me it's not about, like, leaning into that really difficult moment. It's more just like you kind of accept it. It's there. That's your, like, your reality. And then how am I going to get out of. How am I going to make this, like, nice as quick as possible? And yeah, that's kind of. You just. You get really good at turning bad moments around quickly, you know, and then also being aware that they are going to come and they're going to come each day and to not get too rattled by it each time, because the more, the more you've been in those situations, the more you realize you always come out of them. But yeah, I guess that's like the way I approach it. And the strategies I use are like different from time to time. Like, it's not like you work out the trick to be like, every time I feel I need to just eat a Snickers, then I'm good. Although sometimes that works, you know, but like, it's normally a bunch of different things. And then you, you also get really in tune with like, your body and what it needs. And like, especially from like a, a nutrition and like pacing standpoint, you get very efficient at like finding exactly how to optimize a less than ideal situation to get the most out of yourself, you know, because, like, you know, some days you might be just cruising and you're like, all right, I can, got a big heavy bike, so if I can just stomp over all these climbs, like above threshold, I'll keep all this momentum. And like, not like it wasn't using power, but you understand the feeling. You're like, okay, if I, I can push here because I'm feeling good enough. And that means I'm going to go 5k an hour quicker for this next 5 hours and I'm going to be way down the road and it's worth it because then I'm going to be able to sleep three hours more. Whatever. Other times you might be like, well, I'm really on the limit here, so, like, if I can be just like, I'll cruise the climbs and then if I can just get up above 30ks an hour on the flat, like, you know, that's kind of a win. Or other times you're like, well, basically I'm so destroyed right now. If I can just keep momentum and look around and try and find positives here and there, that's the win. So it's all relative to whatever situation you kind of find yourself in once.

Your body goes into that lowest point, isn't it? It's really about problem solving your mind, isn't it? How am I going to get around this? And you're at rock bottom. So you go into survival skill mode, don't you? And you're not thinking about next week tomorrow, you're thinking about the next five minutes, how am I going to get through this? And you're problem solving straight away. You're deciding how hard you're going to ride. You're deciding, do I need to stop and eat, Do I need to drink? And there are things that are instinctive that you are really good at, obviously, because you've been down that journey a lot. And a lot of the people we coach are endurance type athletes and they're going to be facing this as an Ironman triathlete or as an endurance rider who's doing an epic, you know, three peaks, which is a 4,000 meter climb. You know, you've got to go through these experiences and be ready for them. And that seems to be how you've coped better. Is okay, I know that's going to happen to me. How am I going to react? And yeah, that's a bit, I'm.

Yeah, exactly. Like that's, it's like inevitable. Right. It happens in racing. The same, the same things happen. No matter what kind of endurance activity you're doing or even outside of that. Like no matter like things in life, you know, it's very similar to like you kind of have these, it's all problem solving basically. And I think that's what I enjoy the most about like the, the being self sufficient is you have so many problems to solve that no one problem ever becomes overwhelming really. You know, like basically the things that you're kind of scared about when it comes to being, you know, doing self sufficient ride is like staying warm enough, keeping yourself fed, having enough water and they're basically the things that drive the whole thing. So you kind of strip back to a very primal kind of needs based and then if you can keep those met, everything else that happens is all in your head. And like you, you can create as many problems as you want for yourself because like our brain's very good at doing that. But kind of realizing that none of those things actually impact you at that moment, it's like, okay, I'm not cold, have enough food, I have enough water. Like the rest is on me in a way. So yeah, it's very simple in a way. All the, I think it gets complicated in just like filtering out all the noise in your own head. Right. Because the tendency is when it gets really hard. Yeah. Like going back to the motivation, like that's when I say like the most important thing is the motivation has to be yourself and your choice to be out there. Because the first thing you want to do is like blame someone, you know, because that's an easy one. You like, you kind of put the situation you're in on someone else. And if you're in a mind space where you can do that, it's really hard to break because you can sit and like seethe and, and like be pissed off at like the situation you're in because you're like, oh, I can just vent it all with that one person. And if that's like, you know, if there's Any. Any motivation for what you're doing that isn't internal, that will come up really quick, you know. So I think, like, you can kind of knock a lot of that negativity on the head by just being very sure. When you start, you, like, this is, I'm doing this for myself, right? And not for myself, like, my ego, like, for myself, myself. Like, that helps a lot. And then, you know, it's like frustration, like the basic, like, kind of. That'll, like, cripple you because, like, you know, frustrations come up a lot and you get annoyed by little things when you're really on the limit. But then just having the presence of mind to be like, nothing good comes from being frustrated or angry. Like, all it does is slow me down and make me enjoy this experience a lot less. And then I guess, like, beyond that, like, this overriding idea that you put yourself in.

You.

You like to. The motivation behind doing something really difficult is, you know, if it's like, you want the pat on the back or whatever, the experience is going to be hard. If you're trying to, like, test yourself and grow, like, you need those difficult moments. So, like, kind of being aware that, like, okay, it's difficult now. This is where the change happens. So I'm accepting of this. And then beyond that, you're like, well, I live a life that's, like, privileged enough that I have to seek out these uncomfortable moments. You know, Like, a lot of people have those moments enforced on them for a lifetime, you know, And I think it's like, we. Well, we. I'm talking about myself here because I can't speak for everyone, but I think, like, for myself that I. I live a life that could just be very comfortable and is 99 of the time super comfortable. And, like, I have to seek out things that are difficult, like, in order to have those experiences. Like, that makes you really lucky, you know. So I think once you kind of consider all those things and you kind of make sure that you have those things, like, present in your mind, then it's. It's. It's not easy. It's never easy, but it's a lot more manageable, you know, that's an unbelievably.

Accurate, accurate description of what almost everybody in the world has ever experienced, whether it's in sport or in their life journeys. You've also done a lot of things that not many people would know about, where you've used your position as a really talented bike rider to raise money for the things that are important to you and Have a purpose. Make your bike riding have some purpose. Not that it doesn't have a purpose. That's not what I'm saying. But have a purpose that can actually help others, because it is a very, very. You know, the sport we do is very. You have to be very selfish to be better at it in general terms. And here you are doing. Take us through what, your desire to help others and how you've used your bike riding to enhance that.

I mean, I'd love to, like, say that, you know, my whole purpose is to make the world a better place, and, like, that's what drives, you know, mean hard moments, but I think that's not true. You know, like, I think, like, I want to have as big impact as I can because of the position I'm in, and I think it doesn't take a lot of inconvenience to. To kind of facilitate, you know, raising. Raising money for. For different things. And we have, like, in the endurance community and in cycling in general, we have an amazing community of people who are very generous and who are willing to kind of get behind a cause. And so everything I've done is just kind of about mobilizing that community in. In a way that I think will have an impact. Right. And I'm not someone who has, like, a very broad set of skills. You know, like, I'm. I'm a bike rider. I'm, like, good at that. And that's the one thing I know that I can do. And, you know, the. The more epic it is, the more people who will engage with it. Just, you know, that's human nature. So, yeah, that's kind of, I guess the process I've been through in doing those things, it's not, you know, there's so many causes out there that, like, it's. It's hard to, like, you know, identify how you can help. But I think if you in a position where you can help. I'm just trying to start. I mean, now pretty late in my career, I've kind of realized that you're like, wow, we could actually do a lot more than, you know, like, the role of a professional athlete is kind of. It's been pigeonholed to this, like, small sort of entertainment in a way, but I think there is a much bigger impact we could have because of the position we're in. So, yeah, like, everything I've done has been, you know, heavily facilitated by the people I've surrounded myself with as well, who deserve just as much credit. And it's just been about, like, all right, we're mobilizing people that we have already within our team to set up pages and do research on different charities and where this money can go, and then maximizing media exposure so that the. Basically that the end result is I'm just doing a bike ride. And then we can approach it in a way that's similar to maximizing performance. But it's like, no, let's maximize the impact we can have to raise money for a course. And it's pretty amazing to see when you have a group of people who have this. Like, we have an amazing group of people who are very talented at what they do, and everything's being focused towards performance. And then if you shift that focus really quickly in another direction, you still have a really talented group of people who are also very capable of, you know, having an impact in a different way. So it's just kind of reallocating those resources, and we're all doing similar things that aren't out of our ballpark. You know, it's just kind of coordinating that. And, yeah, it's ultimately, like, personally, it's very rewarding because it does give you more purpose beyond, like, your own selfish kind of exploits. And, you know, I love the fact that I can do the things I like to do. And then as a byproduct, did that have, you know, an impact on people who aren't as lucky, you know, as myself? But, you know, it's not. It's not a huge sacrifice. You know, there's so many people out there who do dedicate their lives to causes who, you know, sacrifice so much, but the. The impact they can have is. Is smaller because they don't have as big a platform. Right. So that's like, yeah, I guess my thought process behind it, but going forward, I'd love to do, like, as much as I can, really. And it's currently kind of about juggling everything at one time. But I like to think there's a point where once the. The competitive part of my, you know, riding experience is done, that I can really hone in on that and see, you know, what kind of impact I have, can have and make more sacrifice sacrifices myself in enabling those impacts. But, yeah, that's where I'm at right now.

You can't sell yourself short either. I know you're pretty humble about it, but you raised 700, I think, AUD for from the Alto, probably more with continued donations. It was, what, 400, €500,000. You jumped straight away into the crisis in Ukraine and rode from Germany to the Ukraine border and raised 200,000 straight away there. You've done smaller, more individual things, and I think that has to be one mentioned too. But does that give you any extra drive? Because I don't feel like you need it. But when you're on the alt tool and you're raising money and you're struggling, is that ever a place you go to for motivation going, oh, there's people watching?

No, I think, like, for my own, like, I think it's good to have an awareness of it. And if you can bring that into your purpose, like, it helps. But kind of going back to the motivations thing, I don't think you can have something like, my motivation still has to be something internal. Like, there has to be something that I'm latching onto, but I'm doing it for some reason that drives me to do it for all those reasons that, like, that's just kind of the way my mental process works. And I think if you feel like backed into a corner by it in a way, because it can happen, like, then it can complicate things. So. But I think like, you kind of inviting that purpose along on, on your own purpose, if that makes sense.

It really does. What, what about the, the Colorado Trail ride that you've done two times now? It's 849km up, as high enough altitude as you can get across ultra Colorado mountain Trail. You said that that's probably, and I would love to know if this is true, that the hardest one you've done mentally in that situation, you rode for, in the latest attempt, you rode for three days, 10 hours, 15 minutes. You had a total of 12 hours sleep across those three days. You're just trying to get through it. You got the course record for it and you've spoken about how you are so fatigued and tired that you're hallucinating. So you're very logical in a lot of the examples you've given so far about how you work through problems. But how do you get through that when you are in survival mode? You're literally hallucinating. You know, you, you can't logically talk your way through things at some of those times. And your brain would, would probably be going to full survival mode where it's just telling you to stop. Like, so, so how do you get through that, that extremeness? And, and is there a point where you probably should stop when, when it's gone that far?

Yeah, I think like, that's kind of. There's a few things to unpack with that. Like I think the. The deeper the extreme get, the high those peaks and troughs become. So, like, it becomes way more of a roller coaster. And, like, you have to be able to adapt really quickly. And the overwhelming lows have a tendency to make you want to stop a lot more. Like, they start to, like, not just aid your ability to carry on at the pace you're like, they just kind of stop you from making any progress. So, and. And you get more emotional. I think the. The further into an effort you get, so that it requires all the same management as everything else, but just on a much more extreme kind of level. And for me, when it gets really extreme, I have to, like, I'll start to lean on things I have or haven't done, right? So, for example, the first time I did Colorado Trail, did very little research. I knew I'd only packed, like, an emergency bivy and a small sleeping bag. And, like, I kind of was like, all right, well, I have to ride through this night because it's too cold to stop, right? And you kind of fall straight onto those things of like, oh, well, I don't have. So I learned a lot through that first time. So the second time I was doing it, I'm like, okay, I have everything I need. Like, I carried twice as much stuff because I was like, if I need to stop and camp anywhere, I can do it and sleep, and I'll be happy I can sleep in that tent. I've got enough food. I've got more than enough food for 40 hours, like, at any time. Like, and I'm comfortable enough now in these surroundings that I. If things go sideways here, I'm not worried, you know, Whereas the first time around, because I knew I was under prepared, you start to lean into that, and then that really unravels you, you know, in terms of, like, the. So I guess, like, this comes back to being prepared, right. And comfortable in that situation, which requires experience, because the first time you push through a night and you're in uncharted territories, like, you're never really sure what's going to happen. So, yeah, that's more of just, like, you, like, knowing you're like, okay, I've done this before, or something similar to this. And even though this seems like it's the end of the world right now, or like, this is all really hard, it's like, it's actually just the same as what you've been doing. It's just you're a bit more emotional about it in terms of the hallucination stuff. Like, it's very. At least for me. And I think for a lot of people I've spoken to, it comes on very slowly. And it's never like. It's never gotten to a point where I've been, like, confused or not really. So basically, you start. For me, it's always around, like, 30 to 40 hours. You start to see, like, I call. It's like an illusion. That's what it's called. It's not an hallucination. It's just like your. Your brain's kind of getting tired. So you'll see something that you say, a tree, but your. Your brain kind of makes, like, a shortcut that's incorrect. And you see, like, a person or something. And then you kind of look. You're like, oh, wait, it's a person. And on reflection, you're like, wait, that's. No, it's definitely a truth, right? And that can kind of last up to, like, I don't know, seven, eight hours. And it's fine, right? Because there's. You just. It's very. Once you understand what's happening, you're like, oh, it's just. My brain's tired. It's making, like, mistakes, basically. But it's not that I'm seeing something that's there, and I'm gonna, like, do something dangerous. It's just like, I keep thinking these trees are people. And then that happens more. More to, like, you just kind of keep seeing the trees as people or something. And then you're still aware that they're trees, but you keep seeing them as people. And then there comes a point when you're like. You keep looking at it and you keep seeing the thing that's not there. Does that make sense? But you're still aware it's not there. And then when it switches to, like, a full hallucination, that's when you. You think it's there and it's not there at all. And that's like. For me, that, yeah, it's like a bit of paranoia. It's just. But there's a very clear distinction there. And whenever I get to that last point, I stop. Because then it's dangerous, right? And you just have to accept that, like, that's. If I push beyond this, it's just risk taking, which, like, for me, there's no reward in that. Right? Because it's just risk taking. It doesn't involve any preparation. It doesn't involve any experience. It's just like, well, now you just kind of lost it a bit, and you're just continuing on and it's just like it's reckless. Right. And on something like the Colorado Trail, like, there's no place for that, I don't think, because the consequences are too high. Right. So, yeah, like, like the first times that happened to me, like when I hallucinated, it was like, it's really interesting experience to have, like, because your brain's acting in a really strange way that it doesn't in any other real situation. And you've just brought it on purely through physical exertion.

Right.

And. And like, lack of sleep. And you can kind of discover a lot about yourself too because, like, there's a lot of like, kind of deep, dark things that just sort of underride that feeling when you're there and you kind of left stripped back to, you know, very much just you. And you can feel very. For me anyway, you feel like very alone and like, yeah, it's. It's kind of like a deep dive into yourself a bit. So the first few times I did it, I got a lot out of that. But increasingly I just go to the same places, so there's not nothing more for me to learn there. And I also don't think it's the best thing for your body to do. Yeah, like repeatedly. So, like, during Colorado Trail, yeah, I slept like, I think the. The first time I stopped, I slept four hours and slept really well. So then I was kind of back to zero. And then the next night I slept like two hours. I was going to sleep four again, but there was like a. An animal. So I, like, kept going. And then I slept again on the trail for like half an hour because I knew I needed it. And that time just literally just like lay down and that was awful. Like, I didn't have any huge hallucinations. I wasn't pushing that. Like, I mean, I started to have like, illusions, but nothing crazy. Towards the end, I did have one half an hour period that was really weird. Just where you have like a. When it first comes night again and like the shadows start to fall weird and sometimes you feel like you're stuck in the loop. You feel like you're like, wait, I've like, am I just like how much time has passed? Time starts to pass weird and you start to feel a little bit. And then I always do like my own kind of checks on myself in a way.

What's my name? What's my birthday? Yeah, exactly.

And then if I'm actually worried about it and see, at that point I was pretty close to the end, so. But like, and I had like some phone signal. So I normally, I always just call my dad just to have a chat.

Yeah.

And not like, I'll talk me through this. I was just like, oh, what are you up to?

How'd you.

Diving, whatever. And then I kind of gauge myself just on the conversation, like, how cognitive I am. And so, like, I was very intermittent and I think I dropped out, but I think I ended up making him more scared than he needed to be. I knew at that point I was like, I'm good. I've got like two hours to finish. I can make it here. But yeah, I think the furthest I ever went down that path was like a badlands because after the race finishes, I made it to the finish fine because I did no sleep for like 40 hours or something. 40 something hours. And for the last like six hours, I could like hear music. And like time was passing really strange, but. And then towards like there's this last climb and I thought there was someone chasing me up there. And like, still, if I go back to that memory now, there was someone chasing me up there, but it was like half an hour before the finish, so I finished. And then I didn't realize you had to ride 20k back to town. So then I rode to town and then I was starting to really lose it. And like, I got to where we were staying, but the door was locked because it was. There was like a film crew there who were staying with and they were still out somewhere. So I was like sat at the front and there was like a park down the road. And then I thought, there's people in the park trying to get me. And then I was like, ah, like they're gonna come and take my stuff. And I like took my shoes off because I was like ready to run away. And then I got inside and like, I was awake for maybe another half hour, whatever, just like, you know, washing stuff. And then when I went to have a shower, finally, I remember I picked up the like conditioner bottle and it like in my hand like turned into like a, A duck that was like had like an angry mouth. And I was just like, whoa, this is like, like if I was. If I was still out on the, on the road, I would be very alarmed at this.

You know, we're very alarmed listening to this.

Yeah, exactly.

That someone can go this deep.

Yeah.

Continuously and repeatedly. It's.

Yeah. But I think like, in terms of the sleep deprivation stuff, like, I'm gonna cut back on that a bit because, like, I. I don't like, there's less to learn there. And I'm aware that like, like this after Colorado Trail, I was very kind of conscious because I had to turn around and do like a two hour mountain bike race for the Lifetime series. Like, I think it was the next weekend and trying to like, get yourself physically ready to, to do that. And we're just like, my mental capacity for that next week was so low. Like I couldn't focus on conversations and like, there was just stuff that I was like, I don't really like that.

Feeling, you know, huge consequences out there for.

Yeah, exactly. And you realize, like, if that's something I'm feeling, then there's something that's happening. So, yeah, I'm kind of less. I'm less excited about pushing that than I was a few years ago.

Good.

Sorry, did I sell yourself short there? You did six hours or just over six hours of sleep over three days instead of 12?

Yeah, it would be like that. But to give you any, I think like the. There's people who've done it on like two.

Yeah.

And taken four days. It's crazy.

Yeah.

I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to function. I wouldn't be able to enjoy it like that. Like, I felt like I had the minimum amount of sleep that made it so I could function nicely in a way I liked and still be conscious enough to enjoy what I was doing.

Yeah.

And because, yeah, I guess like in terms of that route and the amount of sleep I had, it was like pretty conservative.

But yeah, it's unbelievable insight. Let's finish off the chat by kind of talking about. Yeah, your plans going forward because you're going to avoid sleep deprivation. That's one. But you're not. You're no longer contracted to EF with the road team. You're purely off road. You've got a coach again. You're doing structured training again, which is a big change for you. So. So what's the plans next? What are your. What are your goals and what's got you excited?

I'm going to Cape Epic next month and that's been like the kind of whole focus of my off season. I've done that race once before and have since wanted to go back and like test myself there. I've been doing more and more on the mountain bike the last few years and it's like that's kind of the absolute pinnacle of marathon mountain biking. So go there and just see what I'm capable of and just like maximize whatever I have. I'm really excited for that. And then beyond that, I want to. Oh, I'm going to race the, like, US Lifetime series again. So there's like four gravel races, three mountain bike races spread out over the year that, like, all really great events and things I've really enjoyed. But there's still a few of those races that I haven't been able to get at the performance I think I can have in them. So, like, I'm kind of going in very focused on those. And then probably an ultra here, there in there. Which, yeah.

You did mention to us on the way back from the warning that you were pretty keen on the ride across America. Is that also still a focus?

Yeah, that's a plan. I tend to, like, see, for me to switch to the longer stuff is easier in a way, so I never really focus any of my training around like that. I think the biggest thing for that would be I have to spend time on a, like a time trial bike because that's kind of what that takes. So that'll be like a bit of a consideration. But, yeah, like, that's a. That'll be a hard undertaking that require. I mean, I know if I start thinking about it now, not going to help me. So I need to, like, once I get within a couple of months, I'll start honing in on that a bit. But yeah, for the moment, that still feels like a far off plan. It'll sneak out pretty quickly.

I'm curious in terms of the Lifetime series, because we've spoken to Dill Johnson on the podcast before and we love his content. Have you had much to do with him or many chats with him? Because he kind of comes from a very opposite approach to you in terms of he loves the structure and the science, yet you guys are racing against each other in the same event. So have you had a chat to him and he's a. Has he quizzed you about your own training methods and style?

Not really, no. Like, I. I think I met him once or twice just at races. But yeah, I think there's definitely, like, that's what makes those races interesting, right? Because there are people who come from a background of road racing or, you know, like, some people are really trying to optimize equipment, performance, whatever. Some people are trying to have a good time because they've spent their whole career, you know, stressing in a peloton, like, which is. It's good. Like, it's a nice kind of group of people that like. But I think the thing I like the most about those kind of races is, like, those marginal gains and that they count for pretty little, you know, in my opinion, like, I think like in the end of the day you get out there and you, you kind of race hard and you need to know how to drive your bike as well as be pretty fit and also be pretty resilient, like mentally that gets you pretty far. So, like, I think there's a lot of different ways to win, but I like the fact that it's kind of old school racing in a way. Not much tactics. Just get out there and go hard and see what you've got, you know?

Yeah, I suppose the one thing I always love to ask anybody we have on is looking back at what you've done since you were a young kid and that, that super enthusiastic. I want to conquer the world when I was a teenager. Looking back now, would Locky do something different now? Looking back then, if you put yourself, now that you've experienced everything, what would you do?

I'm very happy with where I'm at now. Then I know if I'd made any other decisions, like there's a lot of things I could do differently as a junior if I wanted to be performing now as like a, an elite level road cyclist. I know that, like, I made a lot of mistakes and I would if that was the outcome I wanted, yeah, for sure I would change a bunch, but ultimately that's a path I'm kind of glad now I didn't take. So, yeah, I wouldn't, wouldn't change anything, you know, mistakes and all to finish.

I just want to say I know that one of your goals is to use your cycling to try and have as best impact on people as you can. And whether that's through raising money or whether that's just through showing people to look at cycling in a different light or just to experience cycling in a different way. And I think if anyone listens to you talk, that just happens straight away. You're the way you can get people to just think about enjoying cycling again. And, and yeah, I really, really resonate with that message of experience it the way you want to. And at Trivelo, we know we have very similar principles in terms of you've got to love the process and you've got to be intrinsically motivated, especially if you're training for a half Iron man or Ironman, because you're not going to get there unless it's coming from yourself. But at the same time, we've got quite contrary ethos, I guess, in terms of the age group, has limited time to train. So They've got to be very structured and very, very efficient in what they do. But I think there's such value in what you're saying and that making sure you're finding enjoyment in your training. And I think you're really spreading that message well. And I know you probably get a lot of people telling you that they see their bike riding a different way now. And I definitely see it a different way after listening to your talk. And I think that must be pretty gratifying to you from a personal level to hear that people are back on the bike again because they've been motivated by the thereabouts films or they see the challenges that you're doing. You're riding the Ultra by yourself, and that's motivated people to. To enjoy endurance riding again and enjoy getting the most out of the. Out of themselves. So I think that's awesome from you, and I'm sure you probably get a lot of that out of that personally, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I guess for me, like, cycling's given me so much, and I really think it's like the nicest way you can spend your days, you know, And I just want to share that with as many people as I can. So I think, like, you know, anyone who's going through their training process, like, just being sure that you're enjoying it, you know, like, it has to be fun or you have to be feeling gratified for every time you kind of step onto your bike or you, you go for your run or whatever it is, that you shouldn't be motivated by the outcome like it should. The whole process should be really fun and fulfilling. And if it's not, then you just change something. You know, it doesn't mean it's not for you, it just means you just need to change your approach.

So, yeah, that's an unreal way to finish. Massive conversation. Yeah. Thanks for staying on the line, Locky, and thanks for giving us so much kind of profound insight. We really, really appreciate it.

No, no worries, guys.

Fantastic, brilliant, brilliant insight to exactly what we're trying to get our everyday listener to understand that, you know, there you have to have a pass. You do. And if you do have a passion, you will enjoy it so much more than if you're doing it because of other reasons. And. And about. The balance in life is so key. We've said it many times, if you can get your balance right, then you'll have fun on your bike because everything else in your life is going well as well. So. So you've brought that message across loud and clear. And some of the, some of the detail you've gone into of the mindset, and that's really key to a lot of what holds us back, isn't it, that we, we just don't have our mind right. Physically, we could be so well prepared, but we're weak mentally, and I'm including myself in that. And, and we, we can learn a lot from, you know, knowing how far you can actually go with your body and, and your mind has to go along for the journey.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Well put. That's it for this episode. Thanks, everyone, for listening, as always. We hope you got a lot out of it, and we'll see you on the next one. Keep on.