Life of a Current Pro Middle Distance Runner: Jordan Williamsz

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Trivello Coaching Podcast. In this episode, we got to interview current Australian professional middle distance runner, Jordan Williams. It's always great to be able to get inside the mind of a professional athlete and this was no exception. Jordan gives us incredible insight into his career so far, what life is like as a pro right now, his current training and racing schedule, his goal to reach the Tokyo 2020 Olympics and a whole lot more. We want to thank Jordan for his time and openness. He was willing to give deep and honest answers to our questions and to the highs and lows of his career and life. In fact, we enjoyed talking to Jordy so much. This is our longest episode ever, so we hope you enjoy every part of it too. If you want any help in improving your cycling or triathlon performance, you can go to our website, trivelocoaching.com au or find us on Facebook or Instagram. For now, enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome to another edition of the Trivelo Coaching Podcast. We're joined as always with the head of Trivelo coaching, Jared. Dad, how you doing?

Thanks, Jordan. Good to be here.

And we've got a special guest today, Jordy Williams, who is a professional runner. He's got a lot of accolades to his name. We've actually known Jordan since we were kids because I ran with Jordan and we went to school together. So we're stoked to have you on. Jordy, welcome.

Yep, thanks for having me.

Jordy, you've achieved a lot. Your biggest, most recent achievement was sixth at the Comm Games. Comm Games representative, which is huge. Your PB for the 1500 is middle distance runner. So PB for the 1500. 336 at the moment.

Yeah, that's the one, yeah.

800. 146.

146, yep.

Yeah. So absolute lightning times.

You've BB quicker, you've been to the.

Worlds a couple of times, you went to college in America, you've done a lot in your running career. So we're really excited to talk to you and find out about your career, find out about what you've been doing and the highs and lows of being a professional. So looking forward to getting into it. To start off with, you're on a five way race winning streak.

Yep. It's been a good little stretch there.

Run through the races, George.

So I actually had a pretty bad season over in Europe, but I finished my last race as a road mile in Newcastle and I won that, so it was good. Knocked off our training partner Greg. Ryan Gregson. So that was good. So that was the first one. And then sprint finish of course, some road Marzel as sprint pretty close. I think it was like 4:10, but it was sort of a technical course and we went over a couple of bridges and stuff. So you go up big hills to the bridges. So yeah, not a very fast course but more about winning which I got done fortunately.

You two always have a sprint finish, don't you? How many times you go to sprint finish?

Ah, plenty, plenty.

Commonwealth Games trial.

Yeah, he got me there. Yeah, he got me the nationals and I get him in the one that doesn't matter so much.

So who's won more? Do you know the record?

Oh, he would have had way more but you know, it's probably since I've been really like, you know, at the higher level, probably pretty, pretty close. Probably still him, he's a jet. But yeah, I get him every now and again, which is nice.

Is there good prize money at the one mile?

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good.

So you win the ones with the prize money?

Yeah, yeah. Oh well, it's one way to look at it, I guess.

So you came back and then you.

I came back to Australia and then had a little break. Probably just a week off and then I don't know, I got a few weeks of training and then Melbourne 10k as part of the Melbourne Marathon. So I won that. Ran 29, 35, something like that gear PB was it? Yeah, yeah, PB pretty again pretty sort of technical course, lots of turns and stuff. It's not the. Not the fastest. So I was actually really happy with that. So after that went to Bernie. Bernie did the Bernie 10. That's a pretty big 10k in Australia and won that.

You were fourth last year, weren't you?

Yeah, but I was about a minute and a half slower. So yeah, it was a big improvement this year. But yeah, yeah, ran 29:05 I think, which was another PB, which is cool. They played in my hands a little bit. I, you know, obviously win that day, wasn't it? Yeah. So it was a tailwind on the way out. We're at about 14, 20, 14, 15 on the way out and then turned around to the headwind and few 3 minute K's really slowed us up a little bit. But they played in my hands. I.

You're getting a nice sit there.

Yeah. Which is. I don't know why they would let it happen like that because that is my kind of race. I don't. I'M pretty good in a. I back myself in, in a sit on sprint, in a big sprint.

So they would know that, wouldn't they?

Yeah, which is, you know, a lot of the guys like Liam Adams is a marathon guy. He knows he's not, he's no hope. And a few of the other guys. So yeah, well, worked for me I guess. And then did you talk to them.

After and did they say we shouldn't have, shouldn't have done that?

I was just in disbelief because I couldn't believe that actually won it. I was, I knew I'd be close and I'd have to really be pretty tough to hang in there. But I remember just the whole last 5K I was just like it'd be like 5K. I'd be like, oh wow, it was a 3 minute K. After we turn I was like, oh yeah, that's good. And then get to 4k feeling alright, 3k feeling alright, 2k feeling alright. I'm just like what are these guys doing? And after the race I was sort of like, it's a really hard finish. It's 400 meters uphill and I kicked at 400 and way too far out for me. Dumb, dumb move. But yeah, I got like 10 or 15 meters in front at one point. Then they started coming back at me and I hung on. And yeah, I was sort of like, I was almost shocked afterwards. Shocked that I won it, but shocked that they sort of let me do it like that. So yeah, I don't know.

If you had to pace up, would you be able to hang on? Because it's really quick.

Oh, if they had a, if they had a run, kept going like 28, 30 pace, no chance like oh, could.

Many of them done that anyway?

Yeah, a few of them like if they really push, they probably could have. There's a few good guys there so I don't see why they couldn't have.

But is there any period in that period of the race where you thought they just push a bit more?

Yeah, yeah. In the, in the first 5k, like from about 4k to 5k was sort of like on the edge. Yeah, I was on the limit but you know, gone pretty close to 14 minutes for 5K. Like that's, it's about as fast as I can go and hang on and hang on for another 5k. Yeah, so I was definitely on the limit there but once we turned around we slowed up a little bit and yeah, started feeling pretty good.

It's pretty awesome to be on your limit at 4 to 5k and then go to win.

Yeah, that's the sort of runner I am, though. That's how it has to be. If I can. If I can. If I can just hang in there, I'll be okay. You just sort of get a new set of legs with when you can see the finish, which is nice. And then. Yeah, I think a weekend or two later or during the week, we went up to Brisbane and did a 1500 on the track, which only just won that one as well.

Happy with the time there?

Yeah, it was not too bad. I've really not trained much for the track or anything. We just steer clear of it at this time. So. Yeah, 3. 44, so that's pretty good. And then later, you know, on the Saturday, I won the Noosa Bolt as part of the triathlon. So. Yeah, it's pretty cool. That one was probably a bit easier than the previous two. Yeah, it was just. There was two of us left, you know, sort of five or six hundred ago. I just thought, you beauty.

Did you go from 400 out or.

There was like a nice downhill. You come off one of the bridges and there's like a nice downhill, probably 3, 3 to 400 meters to go. But I. I could tell, like, we got rid of a lot of the guys, sort of a K to go. And the guy that I was with, he was really sucking in the big ones, sort of. You had him 500 ago, so I was pretty confident. So I just gave it a squirt, like 400 to go, and sort of got enough of a lead. I was alright and held it. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of lapped it up a little bit.

That's a. That's a really good period of five in a row.

Yeah.

Racing and winning. Tell us what you do in between those races, knowing that you've got that big schedule.

Yeah.

Was there much training going on in between?

Yeah. So, like, right now, for us, it's sort of just. This is a good opportunity for a track guy like myself that's come off a European track season to get some training in and mainly win these races to get a bit of money because it's not the most lucrative sport, running. So we'll do these races, make a bit of money, sort of covers you for Falls Creek, and we got a couple camps at Falls Creek and going overseas and stuff like that. So that's the main reason for them. So, like, obviously training and winning the races. So I didn't really take much of a. Didn't miss a beat, really, through that whole period. So I was pretty much full training, kind of hitting 140k weeks all the way through.

And so you, you lining up with these races? Not really fresh, are you?

Yeah, not really training. Like the only really thing I would miss is if, you know, before Melbourne I just did a normal week leading the whole way in. Except the Saturday I just ran for like 45 minutes rather than do a session.

So one day taper.

One day taper. And then for Bernie, we knew it was going to be a bit harder to race, so I probably had a little bit more of a taper. So normally on a Thursday we'll do four laps of Caulfield race course. Yep. Yeah, so it's just over 2k a lap. So ends up about 9, 9 and a bit K. I just do drop a lap less. So three laps.

So you did one less?

Yeah, one less and then just jog around till the race. So yeah, a little bit of a taper, not much.

Yeah, it's impressive because you're a 1500 meter runner, you're not a 5 or 10k runner, but you've been put in these races. Is it your own decision because of the money or is it your coach as well?

Is it.

What is it?

Oh, it's a bit of both. Like I always wanted to do them. If I didn't want to do them, I don't think Nick would have made me, made me do them or anything like that. But nah, that's why, that's why you train, isn't it? So you can race and get the best out of yourself. So I could see myself running well these races. So I really wanted to do them. But at the same time we're not really. I know I'm a track guy, 1500, 800 sort of thing, but I really train more like a 5k runner. Like the conventional 5k runner. So massive k's. Yeah. Like I'll in a big training block, I might be hitting 100 mile a week, you know, sort of thing. Three sessions in the gym a bit as well. So I think I can, with that kind of training, I can definitely handle myself over 10k, you know, at a high level. Not a super elite level, but a pretty high level. So enough to win. Bernie, obviously.

Do you talk in miles because of your college experience? Is that.

No, I just, I just, I mean 160k but yeah, I would normally cage for everything else, but 100 miles just sounds cool.

That's interesting. So someone like El Guerroos, who's that top of the tree in the 1500 and richer in the 800 their times. Are they something that you aspire to?

Oh, not really. They're kind of unachievable for me. Like, I'm not unaware of that. You know, you sort of play within your limits a little bit. I know I'm probably not gonna run 325. It's a bit much, but, you know. Or 140 or a 140. Yeah. 139 or whatever you have to do. Yeah. I don't know. Play within my means a little bit. And that's not to say I can't do well. Like, my goals are pretty high, but. Yeah, I just sort of unrealistic trying to run that quick. I know I'll never do it, so I'm not too concerned about it. Yeah.

So I suppose. Look, one of the questions we really would love to hear is, what are your goals in 800 and 1500? What is that? Is that the area you want to concentrate on?

Is that more. More than 1500? Yeah. I'm probably just not quite fast enough for the 800.

Surprising. Because you're pretty quick.

Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's like I have a really good Turner speed, so, like, going from, you know, solid pace of the 1500 to your full sprint, I can do it really quick and, you know, my sprints pretty quick, but I can't run. I think to be a good 800 runner, be competitive in, like, the world champion Olympics, you need to be able to run about 45 seconds for 400, which I'll. I can't do. There's no. No shame in that. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So. But, you know, for the 1500, I'm much more, like, suited to the way. With. The way I am. Way I run and stuff, so.

So with your coach, Nick Badeau.

Yep.

The structure that you're telling us now is you're trying to train like a 5k runner.

Yeah.

You think that strength will help you in the back end of the 1500? Is that what your philosophy is, or.

Yeah, pretty much. It's kind of hard. We don't really have set philosophies in our training or anything. We just get out there, train hard. We sort of got a structure we stick to. There's nothing crazy specific. There's not like a really crazy specific formula that we. That I don't think anyway, that you need to stick to, but there's sort of like parameters around it. So, like, for us especially, it's like, run a lot, you know, 160k. Try and try and run a lot, like a lot of jogging stuff like that. And then you sort of do a session on the, on the hills. So you do some hill reps. The longer the better. We try and get to 800 meter hill reps and you know, might do six to eight times. That's really important for your strength and actually your speed.

Yep.

We do a sort of aerobic rep session, so like UK reps or something like that for aerobic power. So yeah, K reps, mile reps, things like that. And time of the year that changes a little bit more to track specific. So we might do a bit shorter stuff but there's still plenty of volume there. We'll do 8k at least, maybe 8 or 9, sometimes 10k on the track and then we do a threshold session every week. And yeah, that goes for about 10k.

With the threshold session. Would that be specific to 50k?

Yes. Yeah. Specific high. Well not to 1500, just specific to heart rate pretty much. Our group all trains about the same. We got everyone from 1500 to Marathon. So we all train the same. But it just gets a little bit different when you sort of like the last block into racing and stuff like that. So the marathon guys would do their like six week block which is, you know, marathon specific. The 5K guys, they probably only run you know, two hours on the Sunday. That's probably the only difference. And we might do an extra double in the week somewhere. Whereas the 1500 guys, we start doing a bit of lactic stuff on the track when it gets that time of year. But if you looked at us all in January, we're all doing the exact same training and that could be the marathon or the 800.

Wow.

Yeah. So.

So endurance wise your long run would.

Be probably like 20, 20k, 22k, 24k sometimes. Do it now. 45.

What's the place?

You run a nice comfortable pace Y for 30s, 420. Sometimes if you're feeling good, you get going a little bit at the end. But not nothing you couldn't handle or you know, most people could keep up. It's not outrageous. Yeah, yeah.

That's important for people to understand that you're not doing every session the same.

No, no. Yeah. There's like, it's not super complicated. I think a lot of it for us is just the mentality. More than anything you got to get, get the right environment. The 1 percenters actually count a lot in the end.

And what is the mentality that you have to get right?

You gotta Want to be there. That's really important one. You see it a lot. People you know aren't trusting with like the coach, they question something but you just can't. You just have to have a lot of belief in your coach and a lot of self belief and that's the sort of mentality that is the difference. Like if you don't, if you don't believe in what you're doing, it's not going to be good, it's not going to work for you. It doesn't matter what you're doing. You know, there's a lot of ways to train but sort of only one way to think about it really.

Have there been times when you've been questioning yourself?

Yeah, heaps. I think it's pretty normal and it's. But that's another thing of having a good coach. They'll. They'll pick up on that and take. Tell you what you need to hear. Like Nick, my coach, Nick Badeau, he's very, he's tough but like it's never, it's never anything you don't need to hear. Like it's always the right thing. You know, sometimes he's harsh and he'll swear at you and whatever but like you know, you got it, you gotta hear it. That's as far as, as far as I'm concerned. I've never, I've never thought he said anything to me that's unfair. Like he might be really mad at me or whatever. Very few times has happened. This isn't like a usual thing but just for you know.

What are some examples? Is it because you've not trained the way that you, you decided together to train?

Not really. Like I think at the level we're at in our training group, pretty much everyone's trying on the track as hard as they can. Rarely you see someone not giving their all on the track. But yeah, it does happen. But I feel like I've never.

It's more about the effort.

It's just other things mentality, you know, sometimes you're not focused on the ball. You might be hanging out with friends a bit much or you know I had my girlfriend overseas with me for a bit this year and I think that was a lot of. A few problems arose from that but.

A bit of a distraction.

Yeah, something like that. Well at least some people thought so.

That's interesting because it's not. Your coach isn't there to be a friend. Hey.

So yeah, wow. It is. He isn't. He's like Nick said like very. I'M very close with Nick and at times he's. I can ask him, you know, real stuff that I could only ask a good friend. And then other times he's. He takes. Takes a step back and he's coach. So, yeah, it's a good balance.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think that the mentality is the most important thing and a lot of trust.

So that's the mentality of trusting your coach as a whole and just trusting what you're doing. But then specifically the mentality throughout the week. How do you go with that? Because you've got to be on for all your sessions. Obviously not every session is hard, but.

Yeah.

What's it like? I mean, especially you're running full time. You're not working really outside of running?

Well, no.

So what's that, what's that mentality like, just focusing on your training every day?

Yeah, I mean, it's not. It's a dream job, really. Like, it's. I love running, so I get to do it every day and not really worry about too much else. So, yeah, it's not super mentally tough. Not taxing really.

Do you think about, this isn't gonna last forever, so I've got to make the most of it. Is that a thought that you have in your mind at this stage in your career?

Yes and no. Like, I sort of. I know I'm not gonna run forever and there's a few things that I haven't done that I want to. So obviously they're in the back of my, my mind. But I think it probably come for me, definitely it comes undone a little bit if you, if you start putting too much, like self, like pressure from within. So, you know, like take the last, the last six, six weeks to two months, for example. I've sort of. It's. It's not the most serious time of the year for us. You don't want to be going too crazy, so. Because it's just unsustainable more mentally than physically for. For a whole, you know, for a whole year. So I've just sort of been showing up to training, just getting it done. Like, I hit my times and I don't really worry about. I'm not trying to set the track on fire, push it too much to just sort of show up, be social, hang out with the guys, you know, get the session done.

That's important too, though.

Yeah. Yeah.

You've got to have the love there all the time. Otherwise if you fall out of love.

With what you're doing, it's very hard. Then Isn't it?

You're gonna go backwards, aren't you?

Yeah, and it's. I've said it to a few people now. I've actually. In 2018, I absolutely roasted myself up at Falls Creek and I was just getting so carried away too early. Like, I was just really pushing, training like really hard and it's just. Yeah, it's just not sustainable. You just run out of steam, you get tired. So I've actually, yeah, learned a pretty good lesson, you know, the last couple months from, from the guys in our group. We have like the sort of. We've got a pretty big group, but like the core group that goes overseas is pretty small and they're like the professional arm of it, I guess you'd say. But like, we've got another group of guys that we usually train with in Melbourne and they're sort of like, you know, you, your top 10 ish, club runner sort of guy. So I've actually learned a lot from them recently because they, A lot of them when they were trying to train like us, they just weren't getting injured and weren't as consistent and not as good, not as good results as they should be getting. And then they start working, take a step back and they actually improve because they're not as invested in it and not so serious. So I sort of. Yeah. And like, yeah, get me wrong, there's definitely the times of year where you need to be intense and be very serious. But like right now it's not one of those. And I've really, really learned something off a few of the guys that, you know, sort of the step down.

That's great.

Yeah.

So form. You just can't hold it for a whole year. So do you break your season up into. These are the periods where I want to be in the best form. And you've touched on it a little bit. Now's not the time to be informal though. You still want to win cash.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's kind of a hard balance there to be.

Yeah.

In sort of okay shape to win the races that are going to give you an income.

Yeah.

So there's a fine line between doing what's right for you and what's going to give you an income, isn't it?

Yeah, like it's definitely. And, and yeah, it is a fine line and I, it's easy to cross and I have done it quite a few times. But yeah, I think just especially learning off these guys, you know, that it's probably a lesson I wouldn't have expected, but yeah, you just, you can't be. You can't be reaching into the well all year because it just dries up at some point.

But also you're, you know, if I could, if I was your coach and I heard you so motivated at Falls Creek that you are really pushing it.

Yeah, that would excite me. Yeah, to a point.

But when, when is your races and you were doing that for the European Diamond League season. Is that what you would. Is that what you kind of preparing for?

Yeah, yeah, well, pretty much. But 2018 was more the Commonwealth Games. Yes. Yeah. So, like, I came back from Europe in 2017 and I was really, really wanted to make that comm Games team because I knew it'd be pretty competitive because the qualifying times a bit bit softer compared to the World champs in the Olympics, so.

So that was your motivation?

Yeah, and I was just. Yeah.

And you succeeded.

Yeah, I made it in the end. Like, luckily I didn't get too carried away, but yeah, I certainly crossed that fine line, that's for sure. But, yeah.

Was that the difference though? Your motivation was enormous.

Yeah.

Saying you pushed yourself to the limit. You got the goal of making the team. You actually got in the final.

Yeah.

And do you think, if you hadn't have had that extra false creek, pushing yourself to the limit, do you think. Do you think that was a good thing for you or.

Yeah, it probably was because I was able to pull back a little bit. So it told me like, you know, that's, it's probably enough, take it a bit easy. Like, even Nick stepped in and said, like, mate, you don't need to be going this hard. Like, just relax. So. Yeah, and you know, like, our group's really good as well. If they, if you, if you, if you see one of the other guys or one of the other girls, like, pushing it a bit hard, like, they'll. You'll get the tap on the shoulder from one of the older guys. They'll be like, hey, you don't need to do that yet. Like, relax. And now I had a bit of that from the guys, so I was able to pull it back in enough. But.

So you're saying there's certainly times where you need to be really pushing it, but there's other times where you just.

Have to just let it come to you more. Yeah, that's great.

How often would you. Would you spend a period pushing it as hard as you can? Because it sounds like it wouldn't be very often. Maybe once throughout a year.

Yeah, maybe one camp. One camp a year. So like usually when we're in. We do a little camp in Spain, sort of in the middle of the track season in Europe.

Where do you go there?

This place called Hoyos del Espino. It's like probably two hours from Madrid.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sound like you're fluent in Spanish, right?

It's actually funny. I like think I'm useless. And then someone was trying to speak Spanish to me the other day, like being a smart ass and like understood everything they said. I'm like, you know, how long you.

In that camp for?

Probably a month. So I've been there in 2017, we're there for a month or close town close by and then we're in Hoyos for two months in 2018.

And that's altitude too, isn't it?

Yeah, it's not really high. It's probably similar Falls Creek.

Yeah. Okay.

Like that's. I mean, I guess that's fine for Australia. That's high. But when you're in Europe and stuff, they go way higher and like America, they got like, you know, 2500 meters, which is pretty high. But you know, we found that, that 1600, 1800 meter sort of altitude, that's pretty good.

It's not too much.

Nah. So there's a. I'm not sure exactly what the. There's like an exact point, but I think it's about 2,000 meters. When you get up that high, it starts really hurting your recovery. So you need to like back off the training and have a bit extra recovery. So as long as you're below that, you can still pretty much rip it like. Yeah, like you do at sea level. So it doesn't impede your recovery too much.

You're training it at altitude and you're also sleeping at altitude in that period. So, you know, is there periods during the year where you should be sleeping at altitude as well or have you experimented with sleeping at altitude?

No, I never have. Some of the guys in the group have and pretty mixed. Mixed reviews on it. Like some of them, like, they do it pretty scientifically. They're not just doing it for a laugh. Like they have their hematocrite tested before and after and some people see a, you know, marginal increase. None. And everybody, yeah, respond responds differently. So yeah, I've not done it myself. We've got a. At the vis, they've just got a altitude and heat chamber. So I've been thinking about going to that. But yeah, like goes back to the. Getting carried away too early. I don't think I want to do it yet.

You touched on the one percenters before. Do you have any go to's that you love? Does the whole group have to do a certain amount obviously strength and conditioning as well?

Yeah, I'm pretty big into the strength and conditioning because I feel like a lot of my power comes from gym work. Some guys in the group don't do it as much like Nick encourages it but it's strongly encourages it but I guess it's not mandatory. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to.

Someone helping you with that.

How have you thought about that? I've got a gym coach through the vis Corey Innis. He's a. He's a jet good bloke.

He's invested in you.

Yeah, yeah. So we've been, we've been together for a couple years now. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. I really like the gym because like in running because we do the same thing. It's super repetitive. You don't see improvements always. So I like the gym because you can get some, you get some improvements somewhere and it gives you a bit of motivation things going in the right direction to 25.

It's awesome, isn't it?

I can't mate. You're having that.

I'll talk about myself.

I was thinking about that though. How do you go about that when. Because you're in your adult life you've become a professional and so you could run a PB and a lot of athletes you see on Diamond League that comes up PB from 2016 or something or 2014.

Yeah.

And you go year on year without improving. How do you go with that mentally? And then what do you, what do you aim to do to like to get that PB?

Yeah. So in 2012 I ran 336.7.

Yeah.

When I was like. Yeah. I was only 19, I was young as. And that was my PB until 2018. Yeah. So I had a really long period where I had the same PB and but like time on the clock is one thing. I know some people really look to that and that's the point. That's the be all end all. But I like racing. Yeah. I achieved a lot in that six years without running a pb. And you know some people might be like oh you, you like plateaued a lot there. But I'll be like nah, no way. Like I won medals at world relays, like had lots of great races in college and made a world champs team. So like I don't see any plateau there.

I See, and that's the thing with, with athletics, isn't it? On the track, it's not all about the time because. Because most championships are never won in world record times. Olympics.

Yeah.

It's very rare, isn't it?

Rare. Very rare.

And you know, it's about the race.

Yeah.

You know, you're there to win the race and the time's a bonus, I suppose.

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously the time is of some significance because you need it to qualify for a lot of things. But. Yeah, like the 20161500 was 1 in 350, which is like the girls Women's World records faster. Like the.

Yeah, that's a great example.

There's an Australian guy at the para World Championships right now. He ran 500, 347 last night. So, yeah, it's obviously goes to show that like, that's, you know, slow.

You gotta be able to race.

Yeah. But like.

Yeah, no one remembers that. They remember who was world champion.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Matt Central is like, he's. A name's etched in the, in the books forever. Yeah, yeah. And he's probably, he was probably. He probably had the slowest PB in the. In the field wins the Olympics. Yeah.

So there's two different types of racing, isn't there? There's racing to qualify for a selection like an Olympics or Commonwealth Games or World Championships. So you have to run those races thinking about the time a lot more than the tactics, don't you, as compared to when you're in a championship race. It's all about the tactics.

Yeah. So that's, that's where I, that's where my strong sort of strong point is. I'm much better at the tactics in the racing rather than the racing the clock. It's always been my sort of weakness, I guess. So in 2017, when I made my first, like individual World champs team, I was 40. So they, they. There's a qualifying time, so it's 3:36. And then they want to fill the fields with like, for the 150045 people, so they can have three heats of 15. And so they take 45. And I was 46th on time. And I, like, we thought I was gonna make it. And then they put in a few people, so there's some other funny ways of qualifying. So like, they let in a few people that are like refugees and a few area champions. But it's not like the Americas. It might be like Central America. So they can, they can't break four minutes 1500. So like, I thought you're gonna say.

It'S more political than that, but.

No, no, yeah, yeah. I mean, unlike countries like that, they. They need avenues like that to qualify, otherwise the sport wouldn't exist there. So, like, I understand. I'm not. Not protesting that or anything, but. Yeah, I was 46 and, like, probably a week before the championships, I get a phone call like, oh, do you think you can race World Champs? I'm like, yeah, I'm in good shape. I'd, like, love to. And they go, yeah, someone's couldn't get a visa, so, like, here you can go. I'm like, oh, awesome. Like, sort of a phone call. Dream come true, for lack of a better word. For lack of better words. But yeah, and then when we get to the championship, it's all tactical. So ended up. I like, came 13th in the end, so I went from 45th. Yeah. To 13th, so that's pretty good. Yeah. And then now there's like, a few of them have been done for drugs and stuff, so probably crept up a little bit. Yeah. So I was actually first to miss the final, and then now the few of them got in a bit of trouble. I probably should have been a finalist, which is, you know, sucks now, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's disappointing, isn't it? And knowing that you are potentially racing against people who are potentially cheating.

Yeah.

How does that make you. What does that. How does it do for your motivation and for your feeling about.

Yeah. I mean, it's obviously an issue and I don't know. I don't know if it ever not be an issue. It seems like they're always ahead of the game a little bit, but, yeah, I try not to worry about it too much because you have to race them anyway, so whether they're on it or not. Like, I've beaten a lot of, you know, drug cheats before in a race.

So it's pretty satisfying.

Yeah. And like nine times out of ten, they're gonna be in the World Champs anyway, so you have to race them. So you don't want to be beaten before the start, before you started the race. So you really can't dwell on it too much. Yeah.

So that's the beauty about what you're saying. Your strength is in racing, though, because they might be.

Yeah.

Enhanced physically, but they don't. They might be as good a racer.

Yeah. So, yeah, it always helps.

Yeah. Your mental toughness has been outstanding. Look, as Jordan said at the start, I've known you since you were probably eight or nine at little.

Yeah. Little Tackers. We were the smallest kids there.

Yes. I was just talking to Jordan about that, actually. Jordan raced last night at the PB meet and Jordan was one of the biggest on the start line yet. When he was 17, he was the tiniest, and you were not much bigger, although you had growth spurts about six months ahead of.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was always funny seeing you two little guys, but certainly, you know, knowing your, Your will to win almost has been evident to me from when I first saw you running at Little aths and you really lost a race. No matter how badly positioned you were, you would always come through and win the sprint finish and. Yeah, and you carried, you know, to your secondary years and you both went to school together, and the APS in Victoria is a pretty high standard of competition, and there's some really good guys who've gone on to Commonwealth Games and Olympics from that group of runners, and you were very successful during that period. Is that something you look back on as a really good grounding for what you're able to do now?

Yeah, I think all the way through my career, I've been lucky to be exposed to a lot of really good, like, standard competition for, you know, whatever age I'm at, be that little ass like, you know, vp, vpssa. I think it is like the primary schools and the high schools and, and then aps, obviously, and then I was. I was lucky enough to go to college and. Yeah, it's just lots of, lots of really good standards of competition. You just, you sort of pick up things all the time. And that's probably a big, big reason, obviously, like you said. Maybe, maybe I've got a good, like a really big desire to win at all costs sort of thing, or not at all costs. But, you know, just. I try my best to win every race I can. And yeah, I think as I've gone along, I've picked up a few things and just got better and better. And maybe, maybe that's now why I see that as a real strong suit of mine.

Exactly right. You've had honed the crisis, haven't you?

Yeah.

You've had to win from all different scenarios.

Yeah.

And you won a lot of good races as a junior. You know, some standout races. Watching you at Olympic park and the APS 8 hundreds and winning a sprint finish and beating some, you know, some unbelievably good runners. And your time when you went from, you know, secondary school to getting that great opportunity in America. Tell us a little bit about how that, how that happened and how you got to go There and we'll ask you some questions about your time there.

Yeah, so I think I was always, like, good enough to be able to go to America, but I wasn't really thinking too much about it. I was pretty happy at home. And then sort of when I was in 2012, when I was 18 or 19, must be 19, I just missed the Olympics. Like, I ran 3:36 and I had qualified, but the system worked a little differently there. They sort of had an A and a B time and they only took one if there was an A. It was kind of complicated. Looking back is overly complicated.

Is that disappointed that you didn't get that chance?

I was, but, like, yeah, I was disappointed, but I. A few people said, oh, you should be there, but, like, I shouldn't have been there. Like, I could have been there, but, like, obviously the. The way that it was, the qualifying was structured. If I was meant to be there, I would have been there. So, like, there was obviously guys in front of me that were better qualified. So I'm not disappointed because I, like, didn't make it. A lot of people missed the point on, like, there's a lot of people at Commonwealth Games very disappointed they didn't make it, but it's just like, you didn't make it. Like, it's not. It's like an arbitrary thing. It's not subjective. So it's pretty. Pretty black and white.

Yeah.

So, like, yeah, it was. I would have loved to have been in the Olympics when I was 19, but, you know, it was. It was nothing. I wasn't hard done by or anything. It wasn't a selection thing.

Great.

Yeah. And then, yeah, I had no intention of going to college. And then we had a couple of really, like, Jeff, Rosie and Ryan Gregson. They had just, you know, sort of really been at the top of their game around that time. So there was not really as much opportunity in Australia, so I couldn't really get a shoe sponsor. And there was not as much government funding, like, through the institutions and stuff back then. So it wasn't like. It wasn't an opportunity for me to, like, become a professional straight away. So I sort of. I spoke to Nick, who was coaching me at the time, and he's just like, oh, would you go to college? I'm like, oh, yeah, why not? I wasn't. I was up for anything. It wasn't too fast. So he's like, all right, leave it with me. And then the next day, he had got me into Villanova, so it's pretty quick. It all Happened kind of quick.

But did you know much about the college system and the school of Villanova?

I had been there, but it wasn't, it wasn't really because I was going to go there. It was more because we were traveling around America and we just, we knew a few people there like through the group, so we stopped in and had a look and stuff. So I had been there but it wasn't till after that I really had known that I was going there. But yeah, so you're up and up off.

Off to the US for four years.

Four years, yeah. It's great experience. Like I had a really good coach, Marcus O' Sullivan over there. He was. He's got 101 sub four minute miles. He was a bit of a jet for Olympics. So he was a, he was a really good, really good coach and like he's a good coach, but he's just a really good guy more than anything. Like he wants you to be the best person you can be rather than the best runner, which was, which was great. And yeah, it's like lucky. I've been exposed to a lot of really good, really good people in my life.

So you have to embrace it as well though, because you could have be exposed to those people but then not.

Yeah, yeah. And like often you don't realize sometimes there's people when you're around them. But yeah, he's, he's a great guy. Like I got a lot of time for him and really big impact on my life. So.

So how did the structures work at college? They have their track season there.

Yeah. So there's like indoor, there's cross country. So cross country is like September, October, November and then it's indoors, which is like sort of January, winter, February, March and then outdoor. April, May, June.

You would do all of them.

Do all of them.

Three seasons.

Kind of three seasons in a year. And then you get a big break, which you don't really get in Australia. You don't get that long. Well, we don't the way we. When we go to Europe and stuff. So yeah, it was always fun. Like I could actually enjoyed college a lot because it was, it was a very high level, but it was sort of not super high. Like it wasn't. Got to enjoy some like the summers and.

Yeah.

And stuff like that. Went to like music festivals and went to people's houses and stuff. It was really fun about it because.

You knew you're going through college. Did you get advice to not try and be the best in the world at college?

Yeah, yeah. And like I probably tried to be a few times probably tried to be the best in the world but you know, that's like another Marcus would be another good, good example of someone who tells you what you need to hear. So he was good like that and I never, yeah never got too ahead of myself. But it is a good, it is a really good level for a like 20 to 24 year old to be involved in because it's not full on serious. It's like pretty level playing field. It's no one's well really. People are head and shoulders better or nothing's. You know, lots of good racing, good competition. Yeah, you really enjoy it as well like because you, you spend like you know, four years with some guys you, you know for some pretty good friendships with. So yeah, yeah it's, it's an all. It's such an awesome experience. I always tell people if, if you're even thinking about going, just go. Just go. And even if it doesn't work out and you have to come home after a year, it's like who cares? Like yeah, you spent a year overseas and seen a bit as well as.

The running side of it. You had, you had the accountancy opportunity to get a degree which that can't be ever taken away from you.

No, I'm pretty proud of that. I think it. When everything's so focused on running it's hard to, you know.

You were a pretty talented student though at school, weren't you?

I was okay. Jordy was much smarter, much smarter than me. But I was like actually you always worked hard though. Yeah, yeah. In some classes, classes I enjoyed. I definitely found my feet a little more academically in college. I improved a lot. I think I tried a little harder and all that wasn't so much about. It's a pretty good balance there. So there is a bit of a pressure in a good way to be, you know, take your academics seriously. So yeah, I didn't. Was a little hard getting back into school after I had a year and a half off. So.

So there's a big focus on your academic as well as your running.

Yeah. And that's, that's another thing like I said about Mark is he really wants you to be like a really well rounded person. So he's. There's like these like limits on how low your grades can be and he would always. You wouldn't even be close to the bottom limit and you know, he'd be like, oh, I'll just make sure that the B minus, you know, you might only have to have Cs or you know, whatever it is. I can't even remember but be like, oh, B minus, like let's get that up. Like do you need any help? Like we'll get your tutor, study hall, whatever you need.

So it's good to hear you say that because there is a perception I think back in Australia that you see a lot of gun kids, gun 18, 90 year olds, go to America and then come back and not, not do much with it. Yeah, I guess there is an expectation I reckon in the community of you should be going there and coming back a world class athlete and that attitude of well, you go there to improve yourself and you know, get that good balance and then come back and become a professional. It's almost a more well rounded path.

Yeah. And I think that's definitely what I did. It's like I came back and like I was still definitely a college kid when I got back and had to get back into the sort of professional running, sort of, sort of scene pretty quickly in it. And that's tough. That's the toughest jump I've ever had to make in my career. Like in 2017 it was like sort of backwards against the wall a bit. It's like, oh, do you keep running? Do you do something else or whatever? You know, thankfully I kept at it and it's a tough six months. But yeah, I feel like in my whole career it's just been like a constant learning curve. You just progressively polishing and getting better and improving, picking up things here and there and adding them.

That's such a great point because the experiences you have even as a little ATH to a secondary runner, to a college runner.

Yeah.

The experiences you have as a racer and just in, in your general everyday living.

Yeah.

They make up what you can do now as a runner.

Yeah.

And you know, I'd say to guys I'm coaching, you know, every race you do, you know, you learn more from not winning than winning.

Yeah.

And if you can apply the losses mistakes and not make those mistakes again, you're going to eventually win a lot more than you lose. And you're almost, you know, the five in a row now is probably a reflection of, you know, six years of experiencing extreme lows.

Yeah.

Extreme average races and some good races.

Yeah. I mean there's heaps of, there's heaps to learn from in, in, in like endurance sports especially like sure. It's the same in cycling and triathlon. It's just so much can go wrong and it's. You you're working with so many variables and there's such small margins of error and, like, you get one thing wrong and just all goes. It's all disaster. So, yeah, you just learn to, you know, manage the variables as best you can and it just gets to a point after and. Yeah, it is. It does take a long time to get it all right, but, you know, you can manage those variables so you really don't make the mistakes, which is sort of. I think I'm getting there and, like, I'm under no illusion that I've. I'm still learning. Like, it's. It's a constant. You're always learning in the sport because it's always changing and. Yeah, so I think, like, yeah, my whole career has just been.

Yeah, that's great.

Big learning curve. Yeah.

The minute you stop wanting to learn, it'll be the end of your career, believe me.

Yeah. No, I. Words of wisdom right there.

Tell me a little bit about the difference between being coached by Nick and then going and being coached at Villanova. Was there a different. Was there a different way of going about it? I'm interested to hear how they go about it in the American system as compared to what maybe Nick would do with you.

Yeah.

Was it extreme, vast difference, or was it.

Not really? Like, it's still fairly similar. You're still running a lot and, like, not as much, but, you know, a bit and sort of fitness is important. Like, you work on your speed later in the season and all that. As far as guys, like, it's probably not as full on as, like, Marcus wasn't as full on as Nick, that's for sure, but he doesn't need to be as well. So, yeah, relaxed environment. Yeah. And it's a really. It's a really great environment. Like college. It's just so much fun. Like, you just. Big group and you're all sort of trained together as a big group and.

It'S like, what, more of a team?

Yeah, it's very. It's very much like as far as an individual sport can be a team sport, like, that's.

It felt like you belonged.

Yeah. And like I was saying to him, I went for a run with my mate who was this morning, James Coleman, who also went to college for a bit. And we were talking about, like, how good it was with our, like, your teammates. And I just said, like, oh, it was so sad when I left because we had a really big grade go through together. So it was like a bunch of, like 20, 20 of us, the core group, the 20 of us and went through all four years together and it was like, like they're like, oh, man, I'll catch you soon. And I'm, I'm honestly thinking like, man, I'm going back to Australia, there's a fair chance I'm never seeing you ever again. So it was like, it was pretty sad. Yeah. Like, I think that whenever I retire from running and leave Melbourne track club, it's not going to be as sad as when I left Villanova. Like that was.

Yeah, it impacted that much.

Yeah, yeah. Nah, it was a really big important part of my life. So, yeah, it's different. And then obviously now it's a lot more serious and very professional. Like a very, very professional outfit.

Nick's running, it needs to be because you're a full time runner and it's like an apprenticeship college, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah.

You're doing your time and learning mistakes and what your body can handle and all those things are going to make you a better runner now. And I'm sure that's what's going to happen now. And look, you know, some of the things that we wanted to ask are really about that now. What has changed from then? Obviously it's fun at college and there was some serious races. You had some, you know, state championships that you obviously wanted to win.

And there was one race, we saw it back here. I think all a bunch of guys from school actually watched it. My housemates, it was the, you know what I'm talking about.

I think Penn, really, that's the one.

And that shows, I think, your confidence in your own ability. But it was the last leg of the mile and you and this other guy who's obviously a gun sprinter and the commentators were giving him a big rap saying that he's going to chase.

You, not rating you at all, which is great.

And you guys jogged the first three laps and then it was a 400 meter kick and they could not believe that you beat him.

Yeah, I knew after like 800, I just said there's no way I can lose this. Like, I was that confident I could win it. Well, yeah, like as confident as you can be in the situation because the guy's obviously a very good runner.

But yeah, that's a YouTube video worth watching.

Yeah, I didn't link it.

Yeah.

And that race that you were basically jogging.

Yeah. Oh, I think we ran 4:15 for the mile or something.

Technically, that was right up your alley.

Yeah. And it's just like he can run a. He runs the 5k and 10k more. But he also, he won that like college championships in the mile a couple times. So like obviously he's like a jet runner, but what was his name again? Edward? Chesrek.

Chesrek. Because I just remember the commentator saying chesarek a win, Chezwrek a win.

He's run 349 for a mile. Like he's not mucking around. Like he's a good runner. Yeah, but yeah, like he's sort of that. More. More 5k, 10k and they like a 10k runner. It's a, it's a weird thing. A 10k runner can close in like 51, 52. But like in the 1500 you can't close that quick just because you, you know, you've already got enough lactic in your leg, in your legs that you just can't do it. So you know he can close in 51, 52. They just think, oh, he's the. Got the best kick anyone's ever seen. But like when a 1500 runner doesn't have any lactate in their legs was. I was so confident I could beat him. I was so confident I could beat him. Yeah, maybe not 47, but like if he can run 51, I could run 50.

Yeah.

Like in a slow race like that. So, yeah, you know, just. I think it played out perfectly. If he hadn't made it quick. He just smashed me for sure.

Yeah, but what is that? I want to keep going about the college stuff as well. But what, what is that about? We touched on it before. You've always had this confidence in yourself and it's. I was saying to dad earlier that it's not arrogance, but you just have that self belief.

Some people might say it is.

Having you watched you since your junior, you were never. You never just thought you were. Because you weren't arrogant in the fact that you thought you were better than people because of it. You were just self assured that you would win a sprint or. It takes a bit of self awareness to think about. But what do you. Do you think about that yourself? Like what?

Not honestly, not really. Just because. I don't know, it's one of those things you just. I just know that I'm like a good, really good finisher. So I've never really thought much of it because I just know I can do it.

My armory.

Yeah, yeah, that's my. It's my big weapon. Yeah, yeah, it is.

Yeah.

Yeah. So no, I've never put too much thought in it, to be honest.

You just make sure you win, because you've won that many sprint finishes by that much. Yeah, but you win it.

I mean, I think probably what, for me, what I've had to spend a lot more time doing is getting in the right position to, you know, bring out the big gun, so to speak.

Execution.

And that's often the hardest part because, you know, you've probably seen a lot of races where I've come through and just won it, but it's probably equally as many as I've fell short on. So, you know, and obviously the. Now in my career, the competition's a lot harder and there's. There are guys that can do what I can do. There's a few of them. So, you know, you got to work out how to beat the guys that have got the same. Same guns as you do, which is another challenge in itself. So. But yeah, I've not spent too much time thinking about it. I'm just thankful I can. Thankful I got it.

Well, I guess that kind of actually leads to going from a college athlete to the world stage. What's it like competing at the worlds, like in 2017. 17. And then at Diamond League when these guys are just elite, They're a level, the top level you can race against.

Yeah, I mean, it's very leveling. Like, it's. You see a lot. The college kids come out and they run the circuit for a year and they just get absolutely destroyed. And it's just. Just a different. It's different level and it takes time to get used to. But in the Diamond League, I don't often get a start in the Diamond League because I'm just not fast enough on the clock. But they're not necessarily like the circuit races are very different to the championship races. So what I lack in the circuit, I make up for in the championship. And yeah, the championships just crazy because it's a lot of the guys that I've watched my whole career, you, like, line up next to them. You have to, you know, you can't be afraid to shove them out the way if you have to. Yeah, it's like in 2017, I sort of had a really tough heat. There was probably four or five Olympic medalists in there. And I just remember me, but, like, I knocked a lot of like a century to won the Olympics. He was last in the heat at London. So, you know, even a guy like that who's so good tackly, you just. You can get it wrong. Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely a huge step up, like, enormous. It's not just a step, it's like a leap.

I've heard you talk about that period briefly actually where you said. And it was probably coming out of college where it's that six month period where it was really tough.

Yeah.

Kind of said maybe a lot of people were. You were disappointed in yourself, a lot of people were disappointed in you and that was pretty tough to go through.

Yeah.

What was. Talk us through that period and then.

Getting out of that as well. Yeah, well, I just like I wasn't running great and had a few bad races, lost races that I shouldn't have, wasn't training great. I'd sort of, you know, three sessions in a week. One of them would be horrendous, two of them would be alright. Sort of.

What do you mean by horrendous?

Like not hitting the targets.

Yeah, like I can't finish session.

Like was there other things? There's always a reason why it's not.

It's probably trying to train at a level that you're not ready for, but there's sort of no way around getting to the level. You just sort of have to throw yourself in the deep end and suck it up. You'll eventually start swimming.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Yeah. So yeah.

Did you think you from your college period where it wasn't as serious, do you think now this is really serious?

Oh yeah.

I actually have to train harder than I've ever trained and probably focus a little bit more on every day, making the most of every day.

Yeah, well, when you're in college, if it wasn't a session day, it was just you just show up and fluff around, do nothing, whatever. I wasn't focused on what I was eating, what I was doing. Didn't care about sleeping, all the little things then I probably wasn't doing a lot of those things right when I first came out. And you just. Yeah, it's a shock and you get exposed badly, quickly. So yeah, you just takes a little time. And what helped me a lot was being around a guy like Ryan Gregson, like professionalism, just, you just see it. Once you see it, you just start. I know it's probably so annoying for him because he's had so many people come through and just, just copy him, do what he does, follow him around sort of thing, which it's a great accolade to him.

He's a leader.

Oh, he's. He's unbelievable. And he's. And he's probably, he probably doesn't want to be like he's a humble. Yeah, like he's just, just does his own thing and probably, probably does get bugged a lot. But I always, you know, tell him thanks, thanks for putting up with me and all that. So. Yeah, I learned so much from him. And Colis Birmingham as well.

Yes.

Coming out, he, he's a bit more active in sort of teaching the young guys. Like he'll tell you, he'll have chats with you and stuff about, you know, where you got to improve and stuff like that. Whereas Ryan, it was more like I just sort of copy him.

The interesting thing is, you know, since 2012 you have been able to run a world class time that's good enough for the Olympics. So it's not just the physicalness, is it? You know, in 2019 you still, you don't lose that talent. You've got the engine.

Yeah.

And you can win races. You've proved that. What is the thing, you know, that is it. Is it more. Everybody's at similar level.

Yeah.

Why does some people win races and others don't?

What.

What do you think? Where do you see you in that? There's a lot in that question.

But yeah, well, I think from when I was young I might have been able to run the occasional good time, but it was a lot more inconsistent. So if you had a look at my times across 2018, like I probably ran on the 340 maybe like 15 times and like, you know, 336, like three times. So.

Wow.

It's just the. You have less bad races, which is. Yeah, that, that, that's the consistent consistency's a huge part of it definitely. But like the. Yeah, being able to win the races, I just think, I just think I'm probably more desperate for it than other people and I'm not exactly sure where like where that comes from. Like that's probably something that I haven't thought about or, you know, realize or anything. But. Yeah, it just finds like I just always seem to like when I'm in a real dog fight with someone down the straight, I can get past them. Just find something else. Yeah, yeah.

You pick your times to be that desperate, don't you? Like when it's an important race.

Yeah. Oh, like this last one, you know, Newcastle that. I had a terrible season. I was injured. I probably had two and a half, three months off. So it was really. I had a really hard time coming back from that. Just wasn't quite right for a long time. But sort of Nick said before this race, you know, you really need to win this race, like, it's gonna be hard if you don't. If you don't come off the European season with at least one good result. It's hard to. Hard to come back from a whole season of shockers.

So did that put a bit of pressure on you?

Yeah, but, like, you happy with that? I needed it. Like, I needed him to tell it. Like I said, he always tells you what you need to hear. So, like, obviously I just needed to hear it and I won the race and had a real dog fight with Grego with, you know, last 400 and just got him on the line. So, yeah, I just.

It's almost a turning point for you, wasn't it?

Yeah, like, I just. This was such a bad season for me. Like, I know I was injured and stuff, but I probably just made so many mistakes coming back. Like, I would. I probably rushed into training too hard, too soon. I wasn't eating enough because I was trying to stay skinny because I couldn't. I couldn't keep the weight off on the bike. I wasn't riding enough. I just couldn't. I couldn't ride like three. I couldn't ride more than like three or four hours.

Yeah.

So, like, it's hard to keep the weight down on the bike. It's actually not that. It's not that good of exercise compared to running. Like an hour run is like a great workout, just jogging, whereas you have to be spinning for ages on the bike.

Yeah, that's such a really good point. And for those who don't know, you were injured during that period, so you were doing everything possible to keep your fitness going. So you turned yourself to Zwift cycling, got yourself a bike.

Our audience will love hearing that.

Yeah.

You had no idea what Zwift was and you fell in love with it.

Yeah, it's pretty good. You get hooked.

Yeah.

It's like gaming.

So your eyes were open to, oh, there's a whole new world out here of cycling.

Yeah.

So with the injury, that's your only choice, wasn't it?

Yeah. And like, I did. I did actually really enjoy it. Like, I. One of my mates is a, you know, up and coming triathlete, so I'd hang out with him once a week and just fire away all the questions at him, oh, what do you do here? Like, you know, I'm like, absolutely tanked after two hours and he's like, yeah, man, you have to actually eat on the bike. I'm like, what?

I'm trying to lose weight.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he sorted Me out a bit Cashore. Good man.

No, that's good.

But yeah, no, I enjoyed it. Like I got on Zwift. Like that was sort of like where I started started doing. I was on the, I was just doing sessions on the Watt bike and then someone's like mate, have a God Zwift. Like it's two bikes over. I'm like, oh yeah, why not? At the Vis is pretty lucky they got all that cool stuff. So if. Did a few races crack at a race, I hear. Yeah, got a few wins. All right.

Sprint finishes.

Yeah. Oh, and that's another thing you. I would go way too far out in the sprints on the bike. I didn't realize you have to leave it late as like I'd be going like a K to go just absolutely whacking it and I'm like, oh God, regretting it.

So had you, you've come back from that injury, had you come second in that last race, would that have had an impact on you because it was a sprint finish again. So would you be totally disappointed with second?

Oh, for the sake of the fairy tale story, I'm going to say yes. But I think it would either way. I think if I had had a really close race, close race with, with Grego, I would have been up and about either way. But yeah, maybe it gave me a little bit extra, a little bit extra confidence. But yeah, I mean it really has set up a pretty good run the last couple months. I'm in a good spot right now. Like I found that yesterday when I was running around. I just ended up running 4 minute k's for a while and I was out of nowhere. You know, that's only when you. Everything's in a really good spot does something like that happen. You just, you know, without even knowing, you end up running really quick.

Just seeing that you said you, you're in a pretty relaxed period right now. It's almost like an off period. Even though you're racing and you've had five wins and what you touched on before that, as soon as guys relax a bit more, they run better.

Yeah.

And it's the same concept across all sport. Like golfers who tense up and then just can't hit the ball. Pro golfers or tail tennis players get to the final, they can't hit it properly in the hundred thousand. Maybe you relax a bit after your injury and you're absolutely fine.

Yeah, nah. Yeah. And there's a lot to be said about that too. Like I agree with you. Like a lot of sports, same Thing happens. And with running as well, you want to be in good shape and all that and be serious. But you got to find that balance where you're sort of relaxed as well. And that's very hard to find. I think that's might sort of separate the really good ones with just, you know, what could have beens. They just can't find the balance, find the right point for them.

It's such an important point there. I've touched on it in other sports a little bit. The guys who have total focus on one thing, it's almost too much.

Yeah.

And if they don't have another outlet, whether it be, this is ridiculous, but a painter painting on a canvas or, you know, avid reader. I'm just thinking of the most mundane things. But you actually have to have an interest, don't you?

Yeah.

Whether it's studying another subject at uni, afl, footballers, the ones who have got nothing to do other than train don't seem to get the better results compared to the guys who have so busy in their life. So what?

Or you can go to outlets that are detrimental to you.

Yeah, the opposite.

Yeah, yeah.

Gambling, partying, all that.

Yeah.

Just like partying. Or even as you said yourself, just hanging out with friends too much when you're wasting time.

Yeah, yeah.

Is that something you have to actually be careful of because you've got that much time in between sessions when you're training?

Yeah, like during the week, like on some of the days I'm like, I need to go and have a lay down. Which is. That's another really important thing. Moneghetti always says it, he goes, you got to get in bed for an hour a day, during the day. Just, you know, it. It makes all the difference in the world and it really does. So I try and like, you know, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. I'm usually pretty smashed after the session, so. And I do gym as well those days, so I try and doing a.

Lot of two a days anyway, so that would be.

Yeah, yeah. So I. You gotta. You need the downtime and I do read a bit and yeah. Play games. Bit of a gamer. Got time for it, so why not?

How much do you read?

A bit. A bit.

Book a month. Book every few months?

Yeah, probably book a month. Maybe depending, like when I'm at falls, I might knock out like four or five. You know, I probably spend a couple hours a day reading because I spend enough time with the guys that I'm training with, I don't have to spend all my downtime with them as well.

Offhanded question. What's your favorite book of the last year?

I'm reading this book right now. I really like the Sports Gene by Epstein and now followed up with his next book called Range. And it's, it's actually perfect book for what we've just been talking about. It's like saying how the most successful people are like well rounded, not just too. Yeah. Too narrow focused. So but it's. And he takes examples from everywhere. Not just like sport or you know, good businessmen often don't come into their, you know, niche till later in life. So they might be doing. They might be engineers for years or you know, they said the. He's got this one good point that they were really stuck on this. Like our 3M was stuck on this pattern for something. Couldn't figure it out. I can't remember exactly what it was. What was it? I talked about another podcast actually. Some chemical. They couldn't figure it out and they had all these nerd chemists and all this stuff working on the smartest guys in the room sort of thing. And then a lawyer who had done a bit of patent law in the area figured it out just because he could just see it from a different.

Yeah. Another perspective.

Different, different scope. So yeah.

Such tunnel vision.

Yeah. And yeah, that's a good book. But yeah, I read a lot. Whatever. Like since. Since finishing college I've read heaps. Probably 50 odd books. 50 or 100 books.

Mostly sport books.

No, not necessarily like I like obviously bit interested in business from. From college. So a few business books. Not so much. Not so much like how to business books. More. More like, you know, the economic downturns and like the market crashes and fallouts and stuff like that. A few. We read a lot of. Did a lot of classics in. In school. It's like Villanova. The degree is actually. It's like a liberal arts school, so my degree is in science. But the core curriculum in Advilonova is a lot of like religion and liberal arts sort of classes. So we read heaps of like, you know, Hemingway, like Socrates, Plato, all that.

Like everything.

So read a lot of that as well. So that's pretty cool. Goes all right.

That's good. It gives us a well rounded picture of. Yeah. How a professional athlete has to get that balance and that sleep's the big thing. Doing the 1% is the strength training outside of your training.

Yeah.

You touched on diet. What is it? What do you eat during the week?

So like that sort of relaxed mentality I've got right now Sort of carries over to my diet. I'm not that worried about it at the minute. Like, I'd be better off carrying a few kilos now. You know, kilo or whatever it is now because it's just unsustainable. Being too skinny for too long. You get sick and injured and it's like often when people are too skinny, that's when it all goes wrong. And. But again, there is a time where you need to be like as light as possible.

So before you go on with your nutrition. So let's work backwards. 2020 is a big year. Obviously it's the Olympic year. So your goal at this particular point, sitting right here, is to be a part of that Australian team, to be in the 1500.

Yeah, that's your goal.

So working backwards from what is the date, what's the final?

The 1500, I think it's like, I don't know exactly what the font. I'm. I'm very. I'm sort of in the here and now.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, I know when the Olympics is, but I don't know, like the date of the final or anything like that.

So the month is.

Or it'll be the first week of August.

Okay. So it's eight months plus December. So it's nine months away.

Yeah.

So your diet now, what will it be? You said unsustainable eating needs to be a small period of time.

Yeah.

How would you work backwards from here? Let's just talk about your nutrition.

Yeah. So it'd only be like, I'd be flirting with the idea of two months before, but maybe even just the month before you just strict. Just tighten it up a little bit.

What does that mean for you? What do you.

So specifically, like, specifically, I'll just eat a bit less on not session days before the run. So like, I know it'll be just enough to like get me through it and like nothing more. Like it'll be like one piece of toast, half banana. Before. Before anything but a session. But obviously on a session, I don't want to blow the session. So I'll have normal. Have normal? Yeah. And that, that's my main way of like cutting. Cutting a bit of weight.

And what about post session, would you be having recovery?

Yeah, yeah. Protein always.

Every session?

Yeah. Every run, not afternoon runs, but every gym. And every morning run I'll have a. Have a protein.

Is there any other supplements you would use?

Not really. When I'm at altitude, I'll take a iron supplement just because, you know, you don't want to Become iron deficient. That's. That's a big. That's a big problem. Happens more. It doesn't happen very often in boys, but it can. So, yeah, that's something you really like. Obviously iron's a huge part of like your oxygen carrying around your body. So yeah, got to make sure that's tip top.

Yeah.

So you're not changing what you're eating as much, just how much.

Just a bit of volume. Yeah. And like, like when I'm like now because it's like, not really that serious and you know, from filling up at the servo and there's a special lollies.

Yeah.

Getting them sweet too. Sure. I'm a shocker. I'm a shocker.

But you probably can afford to be there. Like you see most, most cyclists kind of eat whatever they want.

Yeah. Yeah. You got. You do have to get it in.

Yeah.

And like sometimes I'll know. I'll know if I haven't eaten enough the day before. I just feel. You just feel a bit flat. So I make sure I put a bit extra in. And like, if you have a bad session or if you're getting a bit tired, honestly, like, you just forget about what you're eating for a little bit and just have a big. Have a go at it for, you know, a day. And it often gets you out of the hole pretty quick.

Yep. A lot of people would be interested. A lot of people like to have a social drink now and then.

Yeah.

Is it something that you have got a real firm belief on whether you should be drinking?

Oh, yeah. I don't mind a beer. I'm sure Jordy remembers back at a few of the high school parties and stuff, or maybe, maybe not. But yeah, I'm fine. I'm not too stressed about it. Like, I think I've sort of gotten down the. To the point now where I'm not that keen to like go and have a blowout and drink 20 beers. I don't care. Like, I know a lot of people talk about balance in like sort of that side of things as well, but I don't necessarily think balance is 20 beers. I think if you. I just don't want to do that. Like, you know, you feel like shit the next day and, and the day after sometimes even so it like knocks you around a bit. So I just. Yeah, I'm not. I don't really do, like. I don't really do that anymore. I might have like one or two beers on a, On a Saturday or whatever. On a Sunday. Sunday iva. Yeah, whatever. But, you know, in the, in the season, we might go out for a beer or something, but probably go like six months with having 10 beers.

Yeah, the whole group's pretty similar.

Yeah. Some won't drink at all, some probably drink a little more, but not, not much more than that.

Yep.

Yeah.

That's interesting. And I say a lot of the athletes I coach, whether you're, you know, a triathlete and you're standing on the beach before the race starts for your swim, or whether you're a cyclist and you're on the line, you know, you want to, you want to look back at your preparation and go, did I do everything in my power to get me in the best possible shape, to give me the best opportunity to execute my plan?

Yeah.

And you know, the food, the sleep, alcohol, you know, the altitude and the training, of course, they're, they're just, you know, the strength and conditioning, they're just, you can rattle off all the things and you know, making decisions, I think really tunes the body to make sure that you are, you know, you want to stand there going, I'm ready, you know, and I'm happy with my preparation. You don't have any doubts, do you?

No. And like, yeah, certainly that confidence you get from the discipline. Yeah. Like, and you're not, you don't even have to think about what mistakes you've made because you're not going to make, you know, you're not going to make them. So like, yeah, like I said about how I operate and how our group operates, the confidence and the self belief and that all comes from stuff like that as well. Like if you have not, you know, made a mistake in anything, like, how confident are you going to be? Like you're going to be ready to go. Yeah.

There isn't a roadblock you haven't had to navigate, is there? And that gives you confidence.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, the mistakes give you confidence. People find that really hard to. That's a ridiculous sentence. The more mistakes you make, the more confident I'm getting. Yeah, I'm not going to repeat that.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like everyone's like, I've made all, all the mistakes and like all that. And yeah, certainly when you don't make them anymore, you're better off for it and, you know, you're better off for it. So.

And that's what you're saying before with, you know, you've run under 240, 340.

Yeah.

You know, over how many times? Because your consistency's there now.

Yeah.

You're making less mistakes.

Yeah.

That just doesn't come from six months of training, does it?

That count? No, that is. That's a whole lifetime of mistakes. Yeah. Sound like a bloody drama queen.

That's true. And look, a lot of the guys who come on board with their, you know, who are listening to this podcast, which has been so intriguing, is that they think that in six months, they got everything covered, and it's just not. It's just not possible.

Yeah, it's. It's hard to see the immediate, like, gain. Sometimes you really do. Like, if you try something new and, like, obviously you're gonna see immediate gains because you've not done much of it before, but with you on the bike. Yeah, exactly. Like, I was terrible. Couldn't do anything. And then by the end of it, I sort of can. Yeah. Winning on Zwift, but, yeah, it just. It's just like anything. It's like any good thing, it just takes time. It's like.

Yeah.

You know, like, in my career, definitely. It's. Like I said, it's been a one long learning curve, and it's taken me a really long time to get it all right. But it's like anything, anyone starting anything, just. It'll take. It'll take your time, but you'll. You'll be proud of it the longer you stick at it. You'd be really proud of it at the end, like, you know, you can hang your hat on some. Something you can be really proud of, like. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

A lot of the guys we coach, they're not Olympians. They're not, you know, they haven't even won a race. But for us, it's improvement of themselves.

Yeah.

Whether it's, you know, all rounded improvement as a person, and they get some joy out of actually being fitter or healthier.

It's really important.

And just improving. We can measure. And cycling with your FTP.

Yeah.

Is it 200 this month and, you know, 220 the next month. And that's not, you know, from where you sit, aspiring, you know, Olympian World Championship runner. We were just talking about the basic guys here, and, you know, it's all about just getting the marginal improvement that's kind of. And for you, you talked about, you know, your best time is in 2012, and, you know, you've been hovering around that and, you know, guys need to hear that. That.

Yeah.

That at that level, the gains are.

Oh, yeah.

They're seconds.

You train your ass off for quarter of a second, like, It's. Yeah, it's a tough. Yeah, it's. It's. You give a lot in this sport and you. You often don't get anything back. But it's a matter of perspective, really, because you look at it elsewhere, you know, from a different. From a different angle. Like, I say this. Like this run that I said I did the other day, and I felt really good, like, cruising around went really fast. And often, if it's not an absolute slog, you just enjoy it more. You might be going at the same pace and the same result at the end, but, like, you're happy. You're happy at the end of it.

So the journey, isn't it. The results are bonus.

Yeah, totally.

The journey is. Is kind of what you do. You said before you're in the now. Yeah, I think that's a great way to be. You know, it takes away the worry. People worry about what might happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and we shouldn't. We should be thinking about, what can I achieve today? What can I do the best today? And it's a great. That's great that you said that.

Yeah. It definitely goes back to, like, my trust in Nick as well, because I know he knows what. He knows what I'm doing next week, in a month's time, in a year's time. Like, whatever it is, he knows. He's got it all planned out. He's a bit of a genius like that. He's a really good coach. And it's important to have a good coach because then you don't have to worry about things like that, and you can just do the little things that really do make a huge difference. And, you know, you start. If you can leave a lot of the big decision making to your coach, you're not making as many mistakes as you could be. It's like taking a whole part of the mistakes to be made out of the. Out of the scenario. So you're just more confident anyway if you're not worrying about it. Yeah, totally. I know I am, for sure.

That's a great team combination you've got, then.

Yeah, he's a good bloke.

That's awesome. Well, I mean, there's a couple more things I want to go through. We have had you on here a while, but this has been so good. Our listeners will get so much out of it. It's exactly what you're saying, because the equivalencies between whether you're an Olympian or just someone that's trying to aspire to improve or achieve a Goal is the same thing, cyclists that they're trying to get a power number of 250 and they just can't get there. And they're so hung up on that. And you always say to them, you know, it's not about improving because you can go use that improving. It's about maybe you win a race or maybe you do something you haven't done before, which is massive. So for a lot of our guys that are thinking about racing or coming into a race, I want to know at your level, how you taper and then how you mentally come into a race in that last week or so, what's the process?

So mentally I really don't think about it at all until the day of because wasted energy, wasted energy, Losing sleep, stuff like that, you just. You can't afford it at the really high level. That can be the difference sometimes between winning and losing, definitely. So I usually don't really think about it until my coach might tell me the morning of or the day of, or. I'm not really thinking about too much till then, because you don't need to. You can make all the decisions in the last few hours and then a lot of the stuff you have to decide on the fly anyway because it's all coming at you a thousand miles an hour. Yeah. But yeah, the taper, that's. That's a pretty important one because it can make and break you a lot, I think. And it's very individual as well. So, like, for me personally, usually say the race is on a Saturday. I might just do pretty normal Tuesday session. Like Monday will be normal. Tuesday might be 6k volumes at 8k volume and maybe a couple little faster things, you know, just to get the speed going, legs ticking over a bit. And then Thursday we still do a threshold, but 4k, usually 4k 2 mile, 5k just doesn't really matter. Like it's not 4 or 5k threshold doesn't really hurt you too much. And then maybe a couple strides again just to feel good and yeah, just jog around, take it really easy, do less, do less stuff. Less volume. So normal race week might be about 100k.

Yeah.

Whereas a. Knocked off 60k. Yeah. Knocked off 60k. So.

Kept the intensity, haven't you?

Yeah, not like, not as long. Yeah, not as long periods in that intense. In the intensity. But yeah, you still gotta. You gotta touch everything otherwise.

And you found that works for you?

Well, yeah, I like doing it. Sometimes I'll. The day before the race, I might do a few drills and bit of stretching. And some strides and stuff. But not always because sometimes that's the big thing about running. And it's probably pretty similar in triathlon, cycling and all that. Is that often your routine gets messed up a lot because you might have a long travel or not at no access to a track or you know, whatever million things. Like sometimes when you're in Japan all you can eat is rice, stuff like that. So if you. I find that I don't really have too much routine because if you get too hung up on it that that's probably one of those mistakes. You know, you get too high up on it, you get starts working against you if you don't have it. So I've really got. No, not much of a routine. Yeah, not much superstition, nothing like that.

Yeah. Flexible.

Does that include race day in terms of what you're eating for breaking stuff or two hours pre the race? Is this something you have to have?

I actually don't eat a lot on race day because if I was doing a 10k I'd probably eat a bit just because I know you do need it at that point. But 1500, you don't really need anything in your stomach. So I just, I don't eat much really at all. Like I went like this year after Birmingham we Birmingham Diamond League ran terrible. Like I was in a bit of a bad patch. So like a few people like said come and have a few beers. Like you need to like relax, take your mind off things. And I remember having two pints and I was pissed at. And I remember being like like what is going on here? And I realized that in the last 24 hours I had one. Banana. Yeah, I just didn't even realize. Yeah, but so yeah I don't really eat much on race day. Like sometimes I have a bit of breakfast and banana, you know, Caffeine, smash the caffeine.

What's your warm up like on race day?

Pretty normal. Normal as I do for a session, like you know, 20 minutes jogging, a couple strides, some stretching drills, stuff like that.

So nothing changes. You want to keep your routine, don't you?

Yeah, like it's. And it's very flexible too. Like if I couldn't often the call room times are all different. So sometimes they're like 45 minutes, sometimes they're 10. So you just gotta be ready to do everything on the fly a little bit. Yeah, it helps to be pretty. Well I'm lucky. I'm pretty relaxed normally so it's easy to just go with the flow. But seeing people get Hung up on things. So try and avoid that.

You can see them beating before you start.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I remember this guy. One time we were racing, and it was for an Australian team. We had to wear. We all had to be wearing the same outfits, and there was three of us, and we're all sort of more like 1500, 800 guys. And we're like, nah, mate, we're in split shorts. And he really wanted to wear a bodysuit. And we're like, nah, split shorts, mate. And he was. Oh, no, he was. He was terrible in this race because he was so hung up on, like. He was like, oh, this is bullshit. You know, I should be able to wear this. And like, nah, mate, Sorry. And he was just useless. Rubbish. Yep. No good.

He was beaten for before the race. Yeah.

Yeah.

So a question that I was thinking about is trying to peak a couple of times in a season because obviously you have to qualify to get to the Olympics, and is that something that's quite difficult to achieve? When will you be qualifying for the Olympics? When's your opportunity to try out? What month compared to August, when the Olympics are on.

So there'll be the qualifying period and probably three weeks before the Olympics. Right. Okay. So pretty much till then. Yeah. So it started maybe four months ago.

Yeah.

Five months ago or something like that.

You just have to run the time in between now and then.

Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty much it. If you run the time, the time's quick enough. So how's the time now this year? 3.35Flat. So there's a few other ways now to do it. It's sort of. They're trying to sort of bring in a ranking system and stuff like that. So it's a. It's very complicated. I personally don't quite understand it yet.

So how do you go about that, then?

What's your plan? Yeah, what's your plan around that for qualifying?

Yeah, I think, like, the way I'm going now, I. I really think I can run. It's like a lot of the years. Like a lot of last few years, like Nick said to me, he's like, God, I just thought you could have run 334 this year. Like, you. Everything was going right, but, like, you just don't get the race at the right time, stuff like that. So, you know, it's not the end of the world. I don't. I'm not that hung up on times, but, like, yeah, obviously I gotta have the run. Yeah. For the. For the Olympics, so. All right, I can I can do it. I know I can do it. It's just gotta get it right at the right time.

Can you set a race up for your squad?

Yeah, yeah, you can. There's a few rules on what's an official race, but. Yeah, yeah, but we could do it. Yeah, easy. No trouble at all.

Is that the plan? You set up races or.

We might, we might. I like Kipchoge style. Nah, you can't do that. You can't do that. Wish you could, but.

Just quickly you. Were you as impressed as the whole running community with that? And because there is. There is some backlash of that. It doesn't count for that reason.

Yeah, I, I would have liked to have seen it in a proper race. That would have been cool. Like, that would have been. I think that would have been a better first time, but it's sort of like, yeah, still gotta run it. Yeah. And you know, you might not have a good opportunity where you have a guy at the right time of his career and he's like one of the best ever that's ready to go to do it. So, like, I see they had. They sort of had to in a way.

Yeah.

But yeah, it was cool. It was great to watch. And there was four guys from our group involved in pacing, so that was good. It was really good. Yeah.

Anyway, so, yeah, your own. Your own plans to.

Yeah. So I like, like, I'm, I'm not really thinking about it yet. I like. No, Nick will have it. He'll have all these ideas zooming around in his head.

So just Coach Jared putting the pressure on you.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man. You should speak to him. But yeah, I'm not that. You just. You just got to get in as good a shape as you can and like, he'll. He'll put you in the race when you need it at the right time and all that. So.

Yep. So one of the opportunities you have, the Australian summer, you have that.

Yeah, but that's. It's an opportunity, but probably won't happen. I don't think an Australians ever run that quick in Australia. In Australia. So like, history would say that it's probably unlikely in Australia, but. And then. And the standard of competition probably just isn't good enough either. You need. You need a race where a bunch of guys can do it because it just. Everyone pushes each other through and Is.

That where you need some. Some paces.

Yeah.

To run a 400 each.

Yeah.

Is that legal to do that?

So they'd have to. They couldn't come in and out. Oh.

So okay, they have to start.

They have to start. And like, I've actually, I did a bit of pacing this year.

I saw a couple of weeks pace.

The world record indoors. It was pretty good. Yeah, Nice payday too.

Did you, did you do it on time? Like, were you?

Yeah, so I had to run 221 for the, for the K. I think it was 221 or 221. And I ran 221.2. So bang on. It's pretty good. They were very happy.

Yeah.

Which is good.

You see so many paces.

Oh, they go too quick.

Were they right behind you?

Yeah, they were right on it. Yeah, they were good. I mean, they knew that like, that was the whole, the whole reason we were there is because they wanted the world record. So these guys knew there was two of them, two Ethiopian guys. They were right on it. So.

Thank you. After.

I actually didn't even see him after. Yeah, they're sort of the Kenyans and the Ethiopians, they're very keep to themselves a lot and they're very quiet in nature. So, like, you know, if a, a Western person broke the world record, they'd be running around bloody screaming. But they just sort of taking their strike. Yeah, they're pretty quiet about it. I'm sure they're celebrating their own way.

So things like the Australian 1500 meter title, does that have any significance to you?

Yeah, I haven't. I've always had a hard time getting it right in. In Australia it always seems a bit early, but like I came second in 2018 last year. I didn't run because I was injured, but I'd love to win one match.

Is it?

Yeah, yeah. Or maybe even April.

Yep.

But yeah, should be good. Hopefully if you can win that, you're sort of ahead of everyone else. Yeah, it can help. So if you, if you get the time and you win, you're automatic. Whereas if like four people get the time, they have to pick and winning that title get you no matter what you're in. Yeah. So that helps. So be good to win that.

If you don't run the time when you win the title, you get in.

If you don't run the time, you still have to run the time. But there's like the ranking system.

It'll help.

Yeah, that helps, but not necessarily.

Yeah, from a coaching point of view, I'm thinking more in terms of. I just know that it's not easy to peak.

Yeah, it's very, very hard.

So you want to, you want to qualify as close to the Olympics as possible.

Yeah.

So that you're not in the form of your life in April and then.

You'Re off the cliff sort of thing.

You've got to kind of recover or.

Yeah.

So is that what you think Nick will have? Do you discuss that with Nick?

Not, not so much. Like, I think the way our, our season structured, it's sort of like our November camp will be just you sort of get him back into shape.

Yeah.

And January camp will be like, all right, now you really hit it. But we're never in like tip top shape in Australia. It's just. And, and you don't want to be like, you can't really. If you put too much emphasis on Australia, you're going to be done by the time it comes around. And a lot of, a lot of Australian athletes, it's a big problem we've got because our seasons just don't line up at all.

Yeah. Yeah. So Diamond League is where you'll be put in your.

Yeah, I'd say if I was going to get a qualifier, probably be in there somewhere.

So when is Diamond League? It's what month.

It will start in? It starts pretty early because they do, they do a couple in Asia, they do one in China and Doha and they might be doing two in China next year and they've got a couple in America. So it pretty much goes from, you know, finishes in September, probably starts in May. Yeah.

So you've got those couple of months to really have a crack.

Yeah.

Will they change it this year with the Olympics being on? Will they still have Diamond League?

It'll just go before and after. Whereas like they'll have like a month break in the program when like, you know, probably two weeks before and two weeks after the Olympics.

So getting a start in those races is really important to you.

Yeah. And it's hard. And that's where like Nick's also really good. Cause he's been around for a long time. He's a really good manager. So he's good at getting, getting a start in.

Well, the. I think you were ranked at some stage, 22nd fastest in the world.

Yeah. On the, on the points.

Yeah.

So that's. And that, that goes to show Nick, like how good of an agent Nick is because he's able to get you in these races where they get you lots of like ranking points and all that. So that's, that's, that's always handy. So he's got a few of the Diamond Leagues where he's got really good relationships at like London and Oslo and Stockholm and stuff like that. So yeah, yeah, I've run those ones before. So yeah, hopefully get in them again.

So thinking about Com Games last year because you came really back into form and you were re motivated for that and became six in the final, which is an unbelievable result at Commonwealth Games. Were you totally happy with that?

Yeah, I thought that was like a, that was like a good result, like wasn't out of the park sort of result. I think, I think if I was like third or fourth I would have been like really happy. But it wasn't by no means bad result. Like I was very happy with it.

And don't, don't forget the people listening that out of all the sports in the Commonwealth Games, athletics is probably the hardest one. Yeah, you've got the African nations.

Yeah, there's still Kenya and it's like world class athletes, Uganda and stuff.

Yeah, like Commonwealth Games is, you know, is sometimes seen as a lesser event, but not in athletics.

Yeah, it's always hard when you like we're in the village and the swimmers are walking around, you know, with back problems because they've got so many medals hanging off their necks and it's just like, you know, their biggest competition is America. So once they're out of it, it becomes a little easier. But yeah, it's certainly pretty tough still for us. So yeah, the guys that were first and second at Commonwealth Games were also first and second at the World Championships and then the guy was first again in this World Championship. So.

Says a lot, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's, it's tough. So yeah, I mean it's a good result. I was happy when you put it in that perspective. Yeah, yeah.

It speaks volumes of what you can achieve. And so one of the questions I really want to hear is if I look at sports around the world, let's just say tennis, a lot of the really good tennis players have come from really hard life background and it's their avenue out of poverty. So a lot of the communist countries, the Russians or they've been really struggling to have a really functional life. And if they're talented gymnast or talented tennis player or, or golfer, it's their, it's almost like their ticket to a better lifestyle. And so therefore their desire to perform is based on survival rather than an Australian athlete or an American athlete who has a very privileged life hasn't got that survival instinct. Do you see much value in that comparison?

Yeah, I think when you're getting off the ground a little bit. Yeah, certainly it's.

Is the hunger the Same for you as it would be for a. I'm just, I'll think of cycling, you know, a guy who comes from an Italian countryside.

Yeah, you know, it's hard to say because I, you know, being Australian, we're so lucky. So I can't. It's hard to. It's really hard to put yourself in those shoes. But can I imagine they've got a, you know, pretty big fire burning to get themselves out. Like, you hear stories about some of the Kenyans that have ended up in America and they end up getting looked after pretty well financially and they look, they end up bringing their whole families out and all that. So it's obviously life changing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It means a lot to. For them and. Yeah, I think, yeah, talent alone gets you so far. Like, I've seen a lot of talented guys not make it. So. Yeah, you gotta have that desire. And I imagine a guy that's really, really is running for their life probably has a bit more to run for. But. Yeah, it's kind of the world championship final. Always in the Olympic final. It's always a pretty good mix of. Obviously there's three canyons. Usually. Always. But yeah, other than that, it's usually a pretty good mix of like people and backgrounds. Like there's a couple Polish guys that are really good right now and they're probably coming from.

It's always intrigued me that we don't have the, you know, we don't have a lot of really world class athletes in Australia and America. And I wonder whether the correlation between the desire and the hunger.

Oh yeah. Could be. Could be.

I'm just guessing. It's just something I often thought about the guys who need it more, want it more and achieve it more.

Do you think there's better systems happening somewhere else? I mean, obviously the Kenyans have the genetic advantage, but when you think about which countries are doing well, like the Polish guys, have they come through a really good system or is it just.

Yeah, the Polish, like middle distance right now for like how small the country is and betting above themselves, aren't they? Yeah. Unbelievable. There's a couple guys in the, in the middle distance. They're just ridiculous. I don't know how they're doing it. Like, they're just, they're, they're like, you know, some of them are kind of old. Like one of them's like 35 or something, still winning medals and stuff. Like Lewandowski. Absolute jet. Yeah, yeah. No, and like he's a, he's a really good Guy. I met him a bunch and like. Yeah, yeah, I would. I'd be very surprised if, if, you know, he had a little extra help.

Yeah. Even the Belgium, the brothers, the Ballies.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's fantastic.

Yeah, they're doing Belgium.

Such a small country. It's such a cycling dominated.

Yeah.

You have these gun runners.

They've actually. They've got a. They've got probably the. The biggest diamond league there.

Brussels.

Like, it's a really big one.

Yeah, they love this sport in Belgium.

Yeah. I couldn't believe I ran there in 2017. I ran in Brussels and couldn't believe it. Like it was in. There's like a. Like we have a football game. They had pack out an athletics meet, which is. Yeah, it's crazy. You never get to see anything like that.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

You've probably run in a lot of stadiums that. Not a lot, but you can run in stadiums full of people, which is pretty exciting. As a professional athlete, that's what you want to do.

Yeah. Like there's been some really cool. Actually Noosa Noosa Bolt is actually one of the best. One of the best races to do because it's just because they have it the day before. Everyone's going to drop their bikes off and see the little festival and they all end up watching. It's actually pretty cool. There's people the whole way and you just don't get that.

You'd thrive off that, wouldn't you?

Yeah. Yeah. You love that. That's what we do for. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really cool. But I think the best, obviously Gold coast, because it was the common games, 1500 finals on the last day and it was like absolutely packed and, you know, I did a stride around the bend and cheers. You just. But it's not just cheers. It's like I reckon I had a hundred times. Come on, Jordy. I'm like, personal. Yeah, it's like really. It's. It's quite nice to.

Yeah, it's really cool.

It's very different.

All the training you do.

Yeah, yeah. And like, obviously London, like in the uk, they're really good fans. So London World Champs and Diamond League and stuff. Crazy. You can't hear anything on your own. So, yeah, there's some awesome place to run. Definitely.

Hopefully you'll get it in Tokyo.

Yeah.

Do you feel like you're blessed to have a lifestyle like this? Is it something you've thought about that, you know, or is it too early.

In you as a 27 year old yeah, yeah. Yes and no. I say no because it is a lot of hard work. So, you know, it's a fair. You give up a lot to do it. So I don't think it's as much blessed as you think, but I think it's more like a lot of it for me has been the right place at the right time. Like I've just been associated with certain people that have, you know, give me a nudge in whichever direction that's really worked for me. So probably more blessed in the people I've known rather than being in the sport so much. Yeah.

You've got to have the talent to get to those opportunities, though. So you've certainly got that. And one of the things that we wanted to get you on board was just to show people what, you know, let people hear what it's like to be a professional runner.

Yeah.

And what sacrifices you make and how. We didn't really touch on a lot of your training sessions, you know, how hard you train. We did interview Julian Painter, who, you know is an Olympian, and he touched a lot on some of the grueling training sessions.

Oh, yeah.

That they used to do back in the day.

I'm sure they'll tell you it was way harder than whatever kids doing these days. Yeah.

So it's really been good to get an insight into what makes you tick and how you go about approaching and it's really good for listeners to hear. A lot of the guys are full time workers, they've got families. You've still got to have the consistency, the dedication, no matter what level you're at, don't you, to get an outcome.

Yeah, definitely.

I also love what you said about the fact that you just love running. And we've interviewed three pros or ex pros now on the podcast and Julian, Tim and Jordi, you've all said, talked about the love for the feeling you get of just being as fit as possible and whether it's cycling, running or triathlon or any sport you're doing. But that's that love that keeps you going.

Yeah, definitely. It's a very perfectionist sort of sport. So, yeah, that's what you're aiming for.

You've got to have a passion though, don't you? You've got to. You've got to love what you're doing.

Yeah.

And I've always said to all the guys, if you don't enjoy what you're doing, you're not going to be successful. You've got to want to get out there every day. And improve and if you don't have that passion, that's okay, but you won't get the results you're after.

Yeah. And that doesn't happen overnight either. I don't think you just. There's probably people that just love it, to love it, but I don't know, I've sort of probably. There was heaps of days when we were younger and stuff. You know, I can't be bothered doing Run today. When you're a kid and stuff and you just.

Yep.

You grow to love it. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah. We might wrap it up there. This was by far the longest we've done. Sorry to keep it so long, but it was so good that.

How long is it?

In our 40s, really.

Yeah.

So honestly, it was so good that we just wanted to get. I want to keep asking questions and hearing. Hopefully everyone listening got as much out of it as we did because I know you enjoyed that as well.

Yeah.

Look, it's great to catch up on what you've been doing in those periods. Periods where I've been watching you from afar, knowing you as a little nine year old, winning eight hundreds around the track and seeing what happened at college, at uni and what your aspirations are now. It's going to be something. A lot of people who have listened to this are going to be cheering for you, Jordy, to get that spot and who knows, it doesn't always pan out, but you're in there trying. So. Yeah, good luck with that.

Awesome. Yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

All good. And that's it. Thank you, Jordan Williams. We'll see everyone next time.