Marathon Mistakes + Run Culture with Dane Verwey

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined, as always, on every podcast by your hosts. We have former Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly, and I am Jordan Donnelly. In this episode, we got to speak to someone who is very special to Trivelon, very special to the Donnelly family. It's a family friend and it's Dane Burway. Dane is a qualified physiotherapist, a injury running injury physio specialist. He's an elite marathon runner. And mostly I think he's just an absolute running fanatic. He loves running more than anything else. He's a man that loves running so much that he started his own podcast on running and he has admitted that he just started it so he could talk more about running with his friends. And he actually, he loves running so much that he proposed to his girlfriend on a 10 kilometer run. Today's chat was really, really fun. We absolutely love talking to Dane. He has some great experiences throughout his running career to talk about. He has a very impressive marathon career. So far. He's completed 10 marathons, including two wins. He won the Hobart and Adelaide marathon in times of 2 hours 24 minutes. That's for a marathon, 2 hours 24 minutes. He boasts an impressive PB of 2, 22, 40, which is just outstanding running. And to show his running capabilities, he also has an incredibly impressive half marathon PB of 1 hour, 7 minutes and 49 seconds. So that's 67, 49, that's a half marathon. That's 21 kilometers, which is incredible running. So we had a great chat today and today we spoke about everything about running. His running career, his setbacks, his trials, his tribulations, his incredible ability to push through some tough times in his career. And it was a great learning experience. I really enjoyed the chat. So did you, dad.

Yeah, it was a great example for all of our athletes that we coach and all the people that are listening about perseverance. And he epitomizes that, you know, not gaining much success as a runner for a long time. We talk, you know, he's. He's been doing this for 18 years, seriously running five days a week since he was 12 years of age and doubting along his journey the whole time. His passion for running is something that stands out to me and you've got to love what you're doing in order to be good at it. There are plenty of examples of people who are really talented but they don't have the passion and, and they may have some success but it's short lived. And Dane's an example of the opposite. He's not super talented, don't get me wrong, he's a really decent runner but he's got some outstanding results because of his perseverance, his consistency, his passion. And it's a great story of someone who's got the most out of themselves because of their desire and their love of what they do. You'll always do well at something you love. You won't be so good at something that's a chore and I've said that many times and the story of Dane and you know, as I've said, you know, for the listeners, we've known Dane since he was born. I went to school with his, went to uni with both his parents and so I've seen Dane grow up and I've just admired the way, you know, no matter what's happened to him, no matter what roadblocks been put in front of him, he has actually managed to.

Get around it and he's had some.

Great, great, outstanding successes despite all the things that have seemingly gone against him. And it's a great example for people not to give up. You know, it's never over till it's over. And if you've got the desire and the passion, the consistency, there's nothing's going to stop you. And it was spine tingling listening to some of the stuff that he's done and he definitely is the quiet achiever and he never, you would never know what he's done in his career because he would never tell anybody. So getting him to talk about himself was really a hard thing to do and I think he did a good job, definitely.

That's a great way to put it. So without further ado, here is the podcast with Dane. Alright, Dane Verway, welcome to the Trivelo coaching podcast.

Thanks George. Thanks, Gerry. Yeah, it's great to be here.

Awesome. We're really excited for this chat and we have to start it off by mentioning something that everyone needs to know. I personally have known Dane my whole life and so is Jarrod. Dane, you're a bit older than me so you would have known me since I was born as well. And that's because our parents went to university together. So dad and mum went to university with Dane's parents, Arthur and Bridget. And so we've known this family for a long time. I'm really excited to talk to you, Dane. It's pretty funny, isn't it?

Yes. We had so many good Christmas holidays.

Yeah.

Whether it was Phillip island or Wilson's prom.

Were they training camps or holidays?

They were pretty much, yeah. They were pretty active. Every morning we'd get up and whether it was a run or you'd be off for your ride. Yeah. And everyone got so fit and it was. Yeah, I always remember those times like that. So such fun times.

Yeah, definitely. There was. There was 12 kids all going for a run every morning and all the parents as well.

Peer group pressure was incredible, wasn't it? Learn how to exercise and there's something wrong with you.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. So first question I wanted to ask is, out of all of us and as long as I've known you, you've probably been the most passionate and fanatic runner and you just absolutely love, love running. So where did you get this passion to run from?

Well, I think I got it from Mum and Dad initially. Like, I saw that they would run regularly and like you said, alluded to, like, our family holidays just around all these PE teachers and. Yeah, you sort of were amongst sort of active families. That definitely influenced me. And then I went reasonably okay at school. At primary school, I got through to zone cross country and athletics and I think once I did that, I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I'm okay at this. So I started practicing doing 3k runs around the local Mount Eliza north primary School. There was a little cross country course and I did that and I got better. And then I sought out a athletics coach at Frankston Athletics Club down at Ballon park and started training there with a small group. And I probably was doing it more out of the case that I was good at it at the time. And I liked, always liked just trying to get better at things and improve. And I really liked the feeling of going well. And so then that sort of sparked an interest in running. And then it grew from there. Yeah, from there I went to Haileybury and then I had to decide between footy and running because I was really small. I kept getting hurt. And it was about year eight that I actually decided to pursue running a little bit more. And after that I was pretty hooked. I think all my friends were in running and so my social outlet was running friends. And I got along with the whole group of kids that I ran with at Frankston under Nicky Frey. She was my coach. And by having that group, that certainly encouraged me to like running more because it was just fun. And then from there I think it became sort of more like, by the end of school and uni, I felt like I had to go for a run, otherwise it didn't feel normal. And it became a bit more of an obsession as well, a healthy obsession where, yeah, I'd go for a run and I'd feel good. So it became a bit of a habit. And then I always knew that I was more destined to go longer because every time the distances crept up through school, I would go a little bit better. And so there was just this underlying interest to how would I go over a marathon. And because I was so small growing up and I was too young to try the marathon, there was always this little burning ambition in the back of my head of like, I wonder how I'll go in the marathon. So I just wanted to stick at it. And so I stayed with the sport. And yeah, it's been a great sport. It's taught me a lot of things about life too, and how I go about life too, with the learnings that I've got from the sport.

Was there anybody, Dane, who you really.

Thought I'd like to be like that runner? Is there anybody who you thought was the, you know, you pin up sort of thing, I want to be like you?

Yeah, definitely. I had quite a few, I reckon, early days, it was Phil Sly. Phil Sly was a runner down my way on the peninsula and he was a marathoner. And I would always see him when I was, I don't know, 12, 13, 14. He was doing laps of the track and what I saw him do, I thought it was crazy. And then I saw him running amazing marathon times, like 2:15, 2:16. So I sort of looked up to that. And I remember one time running along Walker's Road, which is a Road in Mount Eliza. And I was just doing my usual 4k little training run, and he drove past in the car and stopped and wound down the window and said, oh, you're going well, mate. And yeah, I remember that moment. But he was definitely an inspiration from a local level. And then I always looked up to Steve Montagueti. I remember writing Steve Montagueti letters when I was growing up and I remember talking to him after.

Did he retire in his.

No, no, he didn't. I don't think so. I can't remember. I don't think he did. I remember talking to him after a Bundoora State cross country and he'd won the race. And I went up to him after and said, oh, well done, Steve. I was the kid who wrote you a letter earlier this year, and I think I referenced something about Cause he, he said something like he loves drinking coffee or reference something about that. And that's how he said, oh, yeah, I remember the boy that wrote something about that. But I don't know if he was just saying that. Be nice.

Have you seen him in your adult life? Have you seen him since you started running marathons as a pretty much elite runner?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He now would know my name and I could talk to him. Yeah. From like, obviously not close friends, but like, at least feel like I could talk to him. And yeah, he's definitely an inspiration to so many runners because the way he like carries himself and he's a really good role model for Australian running. Yeah. So definitely him. And, and then, you know, just seeing Craig Mottram as well in like from sort of the early 2000s and what he did and how he sort of took Australian running onto the world stage and competed against the Africans, like just to show that that was possible was really cool for an inspired sort of young runner coming through the ranks. So, yeah, probably those three.

Yeah. Awesome.

It's really good, isn't it, that you. That, you know, some leading examples locally.

And internationally can trend, you know, for the fact that he stopped his car on a back street in Mount Eliza and you still remember that and it's just fantastic. You don't know what effect you're having on influencing others, do you? And you set standard by yourself, don't you? By what, how you carry yourself. And that was incredible for him to.

Do that, you know, and it's had.

A long lasting effect on you.

Oh, yeah. Like, for example, I reached out to him about two months ago because I was like, oh, I wonder if I could chat to Phil Sly on the podcast I'm doing. And I reached out to him and we actually recorded an episode, but unfortunately he was at a coffee shop so the background noise was, was too loud. So I haven't, we haven't put it out, but we'll probably chat again. But I told him about that story and yeah, he didn't remember it, but yeah, it's funny. Funny how the world goes.

That's great. So you touched on then when you were introducing kind of your passion for running, that you really think running has taught you a lot of good life lessons. What are some of those lessons that you think is carried over into your life?

Probably there's heaps, but probably the biggest one is just keep chipping away slowly over time. Be patient and persistent. Know that good things take, you know, a long time and it all doesn't happen at once. So, yeah, just steadily applying yourself over time, but consistently.

Have you just summarized my chapter one?

Yeah.

But I think you would know it too, Gerry, because you've experienced it yourself, too, over a long time. You get surprised at how the stuff that you can eventually achieve. I've seen so many runners drop out of the sport over time, over years. A few of them, I bet you would have thought that that's as good as they would get. And they were going, oh, that's not worth it. But it's amazing how good you can get. Like, I've still run PBS, you know, as recent as last year. And I'm 34, and I've run consistently since I was 11. I reckon I was running five days a week at 12, 13. So, like, it just shows that, yeah, distance running is a really cool sport in that you don't have to be super talented. Endurance sport, you don't have to be super talented. If you put in the work over time, it's amazing how much your physiology can change. And I think that's the way I live my life, too. Like, as in, you might not achieve something straight away, but if you sort of constantly sort of put yourself the areas or in the zone or in the right spot and don't get too disturbed or too disappointed or despondent by a poor result at the time, and just try to stick at it over time, yeah, it's amazing what you can achieve. So that's probably one thing that immediately springs to mind, but there'd be heaps more.

Let's just follow on from that and let's have a little talk about your marathon career. And look, you know, Jordan and I know it intimately, but, you know, let's just start with how many marathons have you actually completed?

Yeah, I've done 10. 10 now.

Fantastic. And thousands of half marathons along that journey, I imagine. And what, you know, we've. Let's just have a look at some of the best things you've done. So you've won a couple of marathons, you've won Hobart and you've won Adelaide. Were they things that were, you know, really high in your list of achievements to actually win a marathon?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Gerry. I reckon I started my marathons when I was 28. So I just waited and waited and waited because a lot of people said, oh, no, you're not old enough, you're not mature enough, you haven't finished growing, or you're just not ready. From a running side of point of.

View, are you Happy you took that long to start marathons. Is that something?

Looking back?

I think so, because I certainly. It meant that I maximised my speed side of things, so I got the best I could have out of myself over 1500, 3K, 5K, because now, like, I wouldn't be able to go any. I can't go very fast over 1500 or 3K. So it was a good. It was good to wait till 28. And then when I was 28, I did the Melbourne marathon. That was my debut. And I actually did a. I had a really good day and my preparation was. Yeah, a really good preparation. My coach at the time, Pete Swallow, probably prepared me for the race from a long way out.

And.

I did, like a really good sort of training stint for that race. But it's amazing how much my training has changed since then. I ran that race and I ran a 2:24 and that was an amazing time for my debut. And a lot of people said, oh, you might be able to break 220 once you've done a few of these. And then I proceeded to run another seven, I think, and I didn't get very close to 224, so I actually got it. I felt like for various reasons, because of injury or doing overseas races where I'd get asthma or my preparation just didn't go as well as it should have because I was burning the candle at both ends with work. And so then when I hadn't reached a time, I was getting a little bit down about that. So I was like, well, why don't I just try to try to run a race where maybe I could win it? Because I'm putting so much time into training, I should try to get something a bit more out of it. So I targeted Hobart Marathon in 2018. And, yeah, went over there. And, yeah, it was a great race. In the end, I was running with Dion Finochiro and another little Ethiopian sat Sam, and he's run 207, actually, but he's sort of at the back end of his career and he went out really hard and had a massive lead. And Dion and I worked together and we went out reasonably conservatively. And it was, for those that know, Hobart course is quite hilly and windy. And so we went out in 73 minutes, but then we sort of could see Sam in the distance. So by 25k, we actually caught him. And then suddenly to know that I was actually in a shot for the win, it was amazing what that did. Like, you suddenly not looking at your watch, you're not looking at the time, you're just thinking about the race. And yes, then we ran together. Sam did a little spurt at about 38k, got away again, and then Dion and I caught him at 40k. So all three of us were together at 40k with two k's to go. And then I tried to put a surge in and just. It's amazing. Yeah. Because I knew there was only 2Ks to go. And it's amazing what self talk can do to your perception of pain because I was like, well, really, I've only got less than seven minutes of work to go. And I put a surge in and then Dion covered it. And then with a K to go, I put another surge in and this time I got away and I won. So it was pretty cool and just an amazing feeling, like crossing the line knowing that you'd won a marathon because you pretty stripped back and roar and tired and your motions are pretty close to the surface and then across the line was pretty memorable. So, yeah, I was so glad that I changed my goal to try to win a race because I ended up running 2:24 and it was only, yeah, it was only 30 seconds off my PB from that first day at Melbourne. So it gave me confidence that I could do it again. And then from there I did Berlin later in the year.

Yeah.

And before we get to Berlin, you actually won Adelaide as well. But winning Hobart, did that give you confidence to back up and win another race? Do you think that first step, you have to take that first step of winning?

Yeah, like Adelaide was, it was a different race. I actually led from gun to tape. Like I went out, I didn't know anyone on the start line. There was a lead bike rider and it was just on the bike path through Adelaide. And you do two laps, it's a pretty flat course, but it's pretty windy. And I went out in 318 for the first K. I was just feeling really good and it didn't feel like a 3.18k. And so suddenly I was by myself. And so I just decided to run by myself. And I just followed the bike, lead bike and ease back a little bit to a pace that I thought I could sustain. And yeah, I went through halfway in 71 minutes. And there was a few switchbacks in the course, so I knew I had a decent lead. I had about a one minute lead at halfway. That just gave me. It might have been a bit more two minute lead at halfway. So it just gave me the confidence that I could do it. And that confidence of running scared, being out front, knowing that you're two minutes ahead made me run even better. Yeah, Funnily enough, because, yeah, I was out in front. And like, when you're out in front, you just think positively because you're winning a race. Whereas when you're getting past and the race is turning pear shaped, you start thinking negatively. Whereas I was just having a good day and that was reinforcing how I was feeling about it. And, yeah, so one Adelaide. If I knew the results afterwards, I probably wouldn't have been as aggressive. Like the guy who came second, Dean Menzies, was two minutes behind in the end. I ran 224. He was 226. And then he's gone on to break 2:20 since then. So he was a pretty good runner. I just didn't know him. But because I went out so hard, he couldn't see me. And I think that that meant the race played in my favor and maybe winning Hobart gave me the confidence to do that.

There was two different styles of running, really, wasn't it? One in a pack and coming from behind and negative splitting. Like Hobart, you've run a 73 and a 71. And in Adelaide, you've run a 71 and a 73. And just, you know, execution is everything we talk about in our coaching program. And you still have to race the race, though, you know, and you have to definitely think about your opponents and your, you know, the course terrain and what's going to best suit you on the day. And you've executed both of those completely different scenarios and got the same result, which is. Which is a really good testament about how you've gone about the race, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

But do you know what? Like, we talk about those two, but there's a whole swagger, like, whole heap of races that didn't go to plan and I didn't run the race. So, like, I think it was because I've run so many races over my running career. Like, it's. You learn through mistakes and you learn through. Yeah. So I think, yeah, had I not had those experiences over other races where I was like, oh, yeah, I could have gone about this a different way. Yeah, you definitely get a better instinct of how to race and you learn where your body's at and whether you can push or you should pull back and you start to get better at those high pressure sort of decisions on race day.

We talk about that a lot, don't we, Jordan, in our program about, you know, you learn more from the, you know, the bad experiences than you do from the victories. And it's so much sweeter for the victories because you've done your apprenticeship with so many horrible experiences. And that leads the next question. Obviously, I know Jordan's probably got a question he wants to ask in there, but that gets us to Berlin, which was your pb, and just tell us about that experience.

Berlin was, you know, in the back of my mind for a couple of years. I always wanted to do it because it has such like, everyone knows that it's the fastest course in the world. It's had probably the last eight to ten men's world records run on it. So I just wanted to do it because in Australia, marathon wise, there's always something a bit adverse in terms of time wise. So Melbourne, you go up, you know, a few climbs, you've generally got a bit of a wind. Same with Hobart, same with Canberra, same with Sydney. Gold coast is pretty warm. They're all great courses, but they're nothing compared to Berlin. Berlin, when you do it, it's pancake flat, it's 14 degrees. You've generally got a pack of runners that are there for the same reason you are. And you jump in and you've got people around you all trying to run. You know, there's generally a group of 10 people trying to run the same time you are. So it was just perfect. And it was something that was always on the radar. And I ended up 16 weeks before it. I booked all the flights and I started to write a blog. And I think writing a blog, there's something to it. Like I released a blog every week and meant that I wanted to break 224. That was the goal. And because I was publicly putting this blog out, everyone knew what I was doing and I felt accountable to tick every box and do everything I could to perform on the day. And yeah, it ended up working out perfectly. Sort of like my debut at Melbourne. It all went to plan. I stayed healthy. I got to race day feeling healthy, and I was certainly the fittest I've ever been. I knew that going in. I ran a half marathon PB and a few nice sessions in the lead up. I changed my training before Hobart about a year before and started doing some bigger sort of marathon specific sessions in the lead up. And. And my body really seemed to respond well to that kind of training. I don't think I would have been able to do that training hadn't I not done the smaller kind of training before it. Like, I graduated to it really well. And yeah, I Ended up running Berlin. And it was amazing event to be part of because Kipchoge actually broke the world record on the day and it's still the world record. And I shook his hand, actually just briefly for one second after. I remember being at the 6. I was at the 36k mark when he finished and there was this big screen and I saw him crossing the line and I saw the time. 201:38. I had six K's to go. And I heard the roar because there's pretty good atmosphere at Berlin and I could hear the roar in the distance. And when I saw that, that just motivated me to make sure that I made the day special for myself as well. It was kind of inspiring. It really did give you that sort of shiver through the body. When I saw that, I was like, oh, come on, I've got to do this. And to that point, my race was going really well. Like, I had gone through halfway in a nice package in 71 15. And then I held it together and ran a 7125 for the second half and ran 222 40. So massive PV. And I remember finishing the race, calling dad because, yeah, he's been like, such a great supporter of my running. And yeah, it was a pretty special moment.

To be honest, that story gives me goosebumps because I know how much preparation went into it. And reading your blog, I encourage anyone to go find the Ronculture blog and read that. The whole preparation is just so fascinating. And to see you get the PP was such a rewarding story to read. It was so good. Apart from the PB and the world record. I mean, what makes that memory so special for you and that result so special?

Is the preparation.

Yeah, definitely, like how long it took to run that time. I remember when I ran my first marathon, people were like, oh, you can run under 220. And to me, I was like, no, it still feels so far away and it really is. And Pete, my coach at the time was just break it up into a chunk. So next marathon goal is to break or to run a 222. So I felt like I'd finally achieved that. But, like, it's amazing how much work happened from, like, it was four years of work to get to that point and for everything to fall into place. Like, the marathon's such a hard event to get right. You put six months of work in and it comes down to. Yeah, some of it is, like how the weather is on the day. Like, sometimes you can be in amazing shape. But if there's 40k hour wind. It's going to be hard to run your pb. There's so much that goes into it, especially when you're traveling overseas to Berlin and you're living in a different country and the time zone changes. I get a bit of asthma. I had a bit of asthma in the lead up, but it just came good two days before just because of the different pollution and different. Just different country. Yeah. I think the preparation and how much work went into it and just the chase, like I've always been, I've always loved just trying to get better and knowing that, like just not knowing that. I thought there was a time where I was like, oh, maybe I'm a 224 guy and that's just what I am. And just actually showing to yourself that no, you ran a 2:22. And actually, yeah, I think that that's, I guess the fact that I did it and yes, so much preparation went into it. Yeah, the journey, I guess.

Just a brief note on that and I want to get your thoughts on this dad as well. Because, dad, you often speak about how when you get to the start line you will be confident when your preparations being good. There will be nerves, of course, but you will be much less nervous when you know that you can look back in your preparation. It's been good. And you actually mentioned that in your blog, Dane, I think a day before, two days before you did, you did a practice run and you just said you just felt, you felt like everything was clicking. You felt perfect and you probably knew then in the back of your mind that you were going to do a good result and obviously doing it on the day is different. But is that true that you know when your preparation is that good that in that factor you kind of know you're going to do a good result before the race?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's definitely for me always been a factor. Like when I've known that I've been able to tick off every part of the preparation and, and I've put everything into the race, then I've definitely been more confident. Whereas when you've got like that seed of doubt in your mind where you're like, oh, I could have done that better or this didn't quite go right, it definitely makes it harder to perform well. But you can still perform well. Like I've still had some good results where off less than ideal preparation. But I think where that's worked for me is it made me rest and taper for the race and be a bit fresher and it was. But at the same time, I wasn't confident on the start line. I still, I ran well, but maybe I ran well because I was more an underdog and I viewed myself like that and I was like, oh, like I'm like. And that sort of meant that I didn't put as much pressure on myself so that I still performed well. But yeah, definitely, it's so much easier to be confident on the start line. Yeah. Once you've ticked every box. And certainly for Berlin, that's what I had done.

We often asked and I actually rang.

Your dad and asked this question and I said, I'm going to talk to.

Dane on a podcast. Tell me what you think his biggest strength is. And he did not even hesitate. He said, perseverance is what has got Dane where he is today. And I go as far as to call you Mr. Consistency. You are a person who is relentless with consistency and it's paid off. And it's taken 18 years of running to get to the point where you've achieved some incredible results for yourself. And, you know, growing up as a really tiny kid against, you know, really big opposition, you really. I can still remember at Olympic park watching you at the APS Sports running the 3k against looked like you were a year 6 kid in a year 12 race and you blitzed the field and it was just fantastic to see someone who is so dedicated and so consistent and persevering and, you know, is that something that you pride yourself on, Dane, as being something that really is important to you? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Even from a day to day life, I can't, like, it's almost to a fault. Like if I've got something like, I don't know, a podcast or something that I need to get done or I've got patient notes or I've got some kind of thing during the day that I need to get done. I just can't stop until I've, I've done it or like I. So to it, to an extent it's a fault, but to an extent it's a strength. So sometimes, like, I need to be more kind on myself to know when to rest and to, to stop. But at the same time, it is a strength because it is that never, never give up attitude. And definitely, Jerry, I pride myself on it. Like, I like, I like that in people. Like, that's like, there's a few boys in that I coach and a few of them really have that same, that same sort of quality and it makes me, like, really cherish coaching them. Because I think it's a quality that actually is a underrated talent for a lot of things because eventually you might not succeed at the start, but eventually good things happen over time because you keep pushing in that general direction. So things are bound to happen. Yeah, so, yeah, definitely. I pride myself on it. Yeah, it's. Yeah. And I'd agree with dad. That's probably my best quality. Like, I remember as a kid, Mum and Dad were both teachers at the one school and I think I was sick one day, so I stayed home and might have been year eight actually at Haileybury, and I had to do a history project and make it a castle. And I always remember this one because I think it really exemplifies, like, how focused I can get and how I am. And they left, and they left it sort of for school. And then I went downstairs and was doing my history project which was making a castle. And I made this castle out of matchsticks and cardboard. And I was in my dressing gown and then I looked at my watch and it was 5pm and mum and dad rocked up and I was still in my dressing gown, that the breakfast stuff was still on the table and I was still just like focusing in on what I was doing. And yeah, I used to get, like, in a fair bit of not trouble, but Mum and Dad would, yeah, go, oh, come on, Dane, you've got to be able to. Yeah. So I don't know, like. See what I mean? Like, it's a good quality, but it's a bad quality as well.

That's such a great story. And so have you got some balance into your life now? That's obviously the next question. Obviously you've been a determined, persevering, consistent person.

But, you know, I'm often saying to.

People, you know, you've got to have some balance and if you're extreme in anything, something's going to give and it's unsustainable. Would you agree with that?

Oh, yeah. So, yeah, two years ago, I had to. I was getting a bit burnt out from physio, from my work. I was, I was like, I'm so, so, like, I love doing a good job with my job and making sure that every patient I treat, I follow up. And I was, I was just sometimes, like, I remember Mum saying to me, like, you can only do what you can do in a certain amount of time and, you know, you've got. Sometimes you just got to put it to bed and, you know, even if you haven't, you know, done the best you feel like you could have if you only got half an hour to treat a patient then you've only got half an hour. But yeah, I was going overtime every day and five days a week and after doing that for eight years I got burnt out and I had to go down to three days a week with my physio and two days a week from home. And since I've done that I felt like I've had such a better life balance. I'm not as, yeah, I love my job but I was definitely getting tired mentally. Have I found like good life balance? I reckon I'm fully aware of it and I need to keep reminding myself every day that like of all the, all the important things. And we were actually speaking about this off air just before and about a month ago I was treating my boss's dad and he actually said to me, Dane, because he's been a great, he's been a bit of a mentor of mine here and there just infrequently every year or two. He, he's quite good at just, I don't know, we have like these philosophical conversations and he was like Dane, what are the five main things that are important in your life at the moment? And he got me to list them out and I said something like family, friends and yeah, work, running and health. And he's like, well you've got to think of those five things as. When you evenly distribute your time and effort to them like a wheel. And if you do so the wheel is functioning and it's rolling because you've got a fifth to each section like a pie. And then he's like, do you feel like you're doing that? And I honestly would say that I was spending more time with work and with running and focusing on that. And so I reckon my wheel wasn't a wheel, it was a bit off center. So yeah, I've always got to keep reminding myself of that. It's funny, there's one thing of being aware of things and there's another thing of like making sure that you do it.

And yeah, so yeah, yeah, implementing, implementing your actions is the next step from first of all finding out what you need to fix. And that's the key, isn't it?

Okay, you know I don't do that.

So well, what are you going to do about it? That's the next step, isn't it? That leads me. I don't want to butt in George, but I'm always intrigued as to how you go about setting your goals and getting that balance right. And I'M a real pusher of this in our coaching businesses is, you know, you can't just aimlessly train. You can, but it's generally not that successful. You need.

And I, and I say to people.

A goal can be that I want to be consistent. That can be a goal. A goal can be I pick a race. That can be another goal, a goal could be. I just want to be able to go injury free for a period. What do you do when you. Each year or each six years or what? How do you go about planning you're running and what are the things that you prioritize in your goal setting? How do you go about it?

Well, yeah, I think I start off so recently, like if you're talking about say this year, when I look, I've planned to have a goal over Covid and when I planned that goal, it was definitely just what excites me, like what will make me enthusiastic enough to go out the door time and time again. And I'll think about it and I'll dream about it and I'll. And it actually really lights a fire inside me. So that's probably the first thing that I actually find because if it doesn't mean enough, then you're not going to put in the time, you're not going to structure your day and plan it out enough. Yeah, appropriately. So I think it's going to mean a lot to you. Yeah, that's probably the first thing. And so, yeah, I think then from there you've got to go, well, am I actually ready to achieve this goal? And if it's a long term goal or a short term goal, you've got to work that out too. So, so say the goal compared to where you're at is just too ambitious, then that determines the timeframe and then you've got to work out on a few short term goals that might be like really appropriate in terms of getting you to that long term goal. So for example, this morning I was treating a patient that wants to run the Gold coast marathon next year. So for December, I said, let's aim for the half marathon because you're going to. There's a virtual Melbourne marathon, half marathon in December. And I feel like if she aims for that, then she's that much more prepared to take that next step towards the marathon next year. So, yeah, working out where you're at and then working out how big that goal is compared to where you're at is really important because that determines the time frame and then that determines also what the next suitable step Is, yeah, great answer.

And one thing that comes out in your answer is that unless you have the passion to fulfill that goal, you can talk all you like. You've got to actually walk the walk. You know, people always say, you know, he's a big talker, but is he a doer? And you can hear it in your answers. The passion. When you set your goal, the passion's there. Like, what's going to motivate me? And I always talk to my athletes about when you stand on that start line for the marathon or for the triathlon or whatever event, you're standing on the start line, if you look back and you. Are you totally satisfied with the preparation? And if you are, the confidence you get standing there going, I'm going to do well today, like you would have at Berlin or. But yeah, that's how you. The goal setting is what you've answered there is so true. And having that passion to fulfill it day after day, because it is so difficult to keep the motivation going when, okay, I'm now. Got a little niggling injury. Now I'm sick, you know, now I've got too much work at work, or something's happened with the family. You know, there are all these roadblocks that are going to be put in front of your goal. And if you don't have the passion to get through these roadblocks, then you're going to fail, unfortunately. Would you agree with that?

Oh, yeah. A perfect case has been this period with COVID Like, there's been no races for endurance athletes in Melbourne, particularly to strive for. And so without that goal, then there's no direction, and there's no direction, then you're gonna probably go, oh, well, what's the point? Or I can miss this day. Whereas once you've got that goal, then you've got a bit more purpose. So, like, for example, I've actually. And it might sound like a crazy goal, but for November 29th, I've organized with three friends of mine that we're gonna race 50 kilometers around an athletics train track. And, yeah, the thing is, like, we want to do the Australian record, or one of us wants to do the Australian record. So we're currently building towards that. And we chose that because it was exciting. It was at least something to aim for. And we think it might go ahead, depending on the COVID restrictions. So obviously that's the sticking point, but we're trying to arrange it so that it's safe and help within the restrictions. And then that's actually been a really Good use of a goal because that's getting me out the door. I've got something to aim for. And then once I've got something to aim for and I know what to do each week with my running, then a lot of things actually I get structure in my week as well and it makes me feel good and it actually feeds into my life as well.

I was going to ask you, what's your next goal? That is a whopping goal. November 29th, we'll keep an eye on that date.

It's going to be 125 laps.

That actually seems more reasonable than when you hear 50km on a track. I mean 125 laps is extreme, but I guess to me it sounds more reasonable than 50 kilometers around the track.

It's fantastic. Dana, look, I remember reading stories back in the. Dad was telling me stories back in the stage 70s of the Japanese runners would train for marathon on the 400 meter track. And the main purpose obviously was to get fit. But the main purpose was their mindset. Like if you can run 7,000 laps on a, on a 400 meter ass track in preparation for a marathon, the marathon is going to be pretty easy.

By the time you get to it.

So like I've been doing a few training sessions on the track and on the treadmill as well because of our two hour restrictions. And so for example like a Sunday long run doing two hours outside, then an hour on the treadmill just staring at the fly on the wall and yeah, definitely, definitely is definitely exercising that mental, mental strength that hopefully I can call upon like over those last 50 or so laps because it's going to get pretty easy to want to stop like when you're so close to the finish line all the time crossing it every 400 meters. Like if I aim for a 5k, I've done a 5k virtual race or I've done a 5k race so many times in my life. And I know just without having a crowd or without having the atmosphere of a race, it just wasn't exciting me. So that for me wasn't enough. It wasn't a good goal. And so I had to change for some reason 50k's around the track. But with having that chance of the Australian record because it's actually the Australian records not super, super amazing because it's a rarely run event. So it's kind of like a chance. My PB over a marathon is quicker than it. So I'm a slim chance. But that chase and it's not going to be an easy Goal but it's actually possible. So that sort of chance, you know, makes it exciting and that makes me get out the door. So that's a good goal.

That's unreal. Dane. I think only someone that loves running as much as you would pick that as a goal. But no, that's great. I wanted to touch on. Did you have a question dad?

No, I was just going to say, you know it's not a normally run.

Thing because it's crazy.

Dane.

I was going to ask you though, you talking about the perseverance theme before and you've mentioned that you've had a lot of setbacks in your career. You've had a lot of injuries, illness, you had asthma at certain races, a lot of races that you performed not where you wanted to be, which are really disappointing. How did you get through some of those setbacks and some of those really tough ones where you had really sustained injuries or illness that stopped your racing when you were prepared?

Well yeah, that's a really good question Jord. I remember like when I was quite young like 16, 15, having a heap of bad races for one or two seasons in a row. I think at the time like when I reflect on it I was over trained and I was racing training. I was trying too hard in every run. But you don't like people like your coach tells you at the time but you just think you're immune to it and it's going to make you better, quicker. I remember when I was having those season or two where I was having average race after average race for how much training I was putting in. I was putting a lot of training in for how poorly I was running. I was definitely doubting myself and thinking oh geez. There's definitely times where I was like oh geez, maybe yeah, maybe I'm just not going to be much better than this. And the thing is given that just because I was able to push through those times I was able to see that they were reversible if I listened to my body and if I gave it time and rested up. So whether it was if I just got the pain right or the cold right or the sickness right or the over training right. Like if I started to listen to my body things soon reversed and there was a few moments, few times. I remember one time when I was quite young I had a few poor races and then within two weeks I had a really good race and I started to see a few times where that would happen and when I saw that that could happen it gave it always sort of you always remember those times and you're like, oh, okay, well, you can turn it around. And so that I soon saw that you can't read too much into every result. And it's easy as runners to become a bit too reactive to, you know, you have a shopping training session, so suddenly you're unfit. But it might be just because you're tired, you're overworked, there might be something that's stressing you out, and that's why you had that poor, poor training session, especially if, like a week or two ago, you're flying. And yes, I think it's very easy to become too myopic about your training and your form. And sometimes taking a step back, which is what I started to learn, was, look, I've put in all this work, the fact that I'm performing poorly at the moment, it's just a small hurdle at the moment, and I just need to get through whatever it is. But all in all, if I take a step back and I look at my training for the last year, I haven't missed any more than five days, so I've got to be fit. And so taking a step back and having a bit more of a bigger view of your training. Yeah. Is really important. And you only learn that through trial and error and being able to see that you can bounce back reasonably quickly over time with smart decisions and pulling back a little bit with your training and addressing the immediate concern. And then if you address that immediate concern, it's amazing how quickly your form can change, especially once you've got a year or two under the belt. But it's very easy to get to look at your most recent result and be very reactive about it and go, oh, that's as good as I am. But it's definitely. It was definitely a learning process.

That's so true. And you've given so many good examples of what every athlete experiences, you know, day in, week in, month in. And it's so good that you've said that, because we do push that a lot. And I get that example of one minute you can perform really well and then you suck for two weeks. You don't lose and gain fitness over two weeks. There's a lot of other things that happen, and you've touched on it a few times in this podcast. And one of the things I want to hone in on is you've said, I haven't been very well prepared in some of the races where I've done really well in. And. And if you really were analyzing closely, I could because I know your personality. I know you're Mr. Perseverance. The days, the sessions and the weeks where you had trouble and then you got to a race where you were not that confident but you ended up running well was because you were forced to rest. And that is one of the big things that you've said a few times. Well, I wasn't that well prepared. I didn't nail on my sessions. Bill, the fact that you ran well was because you were forced to rest and you're fresh and, you know, that's why people can perform really well on one weekend and then suck for two weeks because they were probably freshened up on that day. And then they started training hard again and they went back into being fatigue training. So that's an important lesson for everybody out there listening. And you have hit the nail on the head so many times in this.

Podcast, which is really good.

So yeah, yeah, I remember there's probably three races that really stick out to mind, like two 10k PBS that I did on the road where I was sick with asthma seven days before it and even a little bit on the day. But it meant that I just totally pulled back my running and so I did that twice in 10k road races and ran PBS. And then one time I remember I just graduated with my physiotherapy. My last placement was in Geelong and I had a really tough placement which I was really struggling with. So I just ended up just jogging for the month. I didn't do any hard sessions, any hard running training, I just jogged every day. And so then the 5k state champs, the B division state champs were on. I had my physio graduation ball the night before, stayed up till 4 o' clock in the morning, Was drunk.

And.

Then spent the rest of the day recovering. That next night, stood on the start line going, oh, it'll just be good to be midfield and I just have an okay result. I'm obviously the underdog here. I had a shocking preparation, went out slow after a K was midfield and then just started feeling good and moved up the field, got into second with a K to go and then absolutely unleashed with a K to go and ran a 64 second lap and people in the stand were going, oh, he's miscounted the laps, he thinks it's the last lap, but then held on and ran. I'm pretty sure it was a 5k PB at the time off a shocking preparation, but still sweating out the alcohol probably. Yeah, that's it. I think it was something about even mentally not putting pressure on myself too, and mentally not putting that high expectation on myself.

Having fun, just running.

Having fun. Yeah. So it's funny how sometimes we can try too hard and be too rigid and our performance actually goes the other way.

That's amazing. Yeah. I wanted to finish off by touching on your physio career a little bit. And you started the Run Culture blog and movement and podcast, which you're loving at the moment. And you really love treating runners and talking all things running. I want to ask you about some of your big lessons, you know, treating running injuries and what stands out to you as most common with runners. And then I want you to get into some tips afterwards about you have some unique tips that I think are akin to your personality in some of the home treatments you've come up with for Achilles and that kind of thing. You did it with my brother Liam. So I want to start by touching on the running injury side of things and things you've noticed in the running community and what can help runners out there, because we have a lot of triathletes listening to this and endurance runners who get a lot of injuries.

Yeah. I think with running injuries, obviously everyone's different and the reason they get injured is different. So from a general way of speaking, the biggest mismatch I see in the clinic or the main thing I see people getting wrong, is it starts off with that goal. And the goal perhaps is to their time frame to achieve what they're trying to achieve is too rushed for where they're at. So often they're trying to get this physiological change that they don't have enough time to achieve because everyone's physiology adapts and regenerates and recovers at different rates depending on so many different factors. And even within a person like myself, I might have recovered better last week when I was well rested, well asleep, less stress. And then if this week was more highly, I was more highly stressed, then maybe my recovery wasn't as good. So the fact that recovery is so variable, I think we need to give plenty of time for our goals. And often I get people coming in with a six week goal that's just so tough on their body and they're trying to force it and they're trying to force everything to change and happen all at once without a respect of that physiology changes. Yeah, it needs time to change. So that's probably the biggest thing. Yeah. And then probably another big thing would.

Be.

Training decisions and training errors, which sort of goes hand in hand with that goal. So, yeah, Often the progressions are too quick or they're trying to change too many parameters in one week, whether it's duration and time out there and intensity, frequency of runs, and then probably under recovering and not giving enough thought to recovery. So, yeah, training decisions is probably the. And training errors is probably one of the biggest things that if you spend time with and sort of work out, making sure that the training is sort of pitched really well with the person's capacity to tolerate running. So when I say capacity, like, you know, how strong is the person's calf? How strong is the person's Achilles? Like wherever they're getting tight or fatigued or they're struggling, like, how strong is it and what's a suitable training load for that? For their body part that's struggling and where are they at? And then what's a suitable progression and how quick can we progress that? But like, that's so dependent on where they're at, where their strength's at and what their goal is. So, yeah, definitely making sure that the training is pitched well to the person's capacity. And as long as it's not too in excess of their capacity. Because if it's. Because obviously to get stronger and get fitter, you need to test the person and you need to test your body. So you do need a stress, you need to put some kind of strain. So you're constantly running that gauntlet when you're striving to improve your performance. And you're running between stressing the body but then making sure you recover. But sometimes people are going too far into the red and really stressing their body. Yeah. So training errors and then probably making sure, like, especially what I see a lot of is. Well, I see a lot of running injuries, but I see a lot of people that just aren't fit running wise. So respecting that running is a high load activity and there's a lot of load going through the tissue. It's so repetitive. You're out there for a long time, you're doing the same thing. You need to have strong muscles, so you need to have strong calves. You need to have strong quads, you need to have strong glutes and you need strong tendons and you need strong bones and you need strong cartilage. And over time that stuff adapts and it gets stronger. But running alone, I think for some people isn't enough. I think some people's calves are often not strong enough. So often I'm trying to encourage people to do a little bit more work in terms of calf raises or Calf strengthening to make sure that their calves are strong enough. Their Achilles, their plantar fascia is strong enough to tolerate the loads of running. And the same thing goes with. Yeah, they're more proximal strength. So whether it's hip strength, like glute strength and quad strength. So, yeah, definitely working on their strength capacity because a lot of our sedentary lifestyles don't really encourage us to use our muscles in that way. And then we go to run. So there's too much of a.

Of a.

Like a. Often our jobs are down here and running's up here.

Yeah, that's a pretty common theme that we speak about a bit on the podcast, is kind of underestimating a training program and probably overestimating our own ability. And we've heard it from a lot of people who speak about injuries. It's the same thing, underestimating the load that a training program has and overestimating your body's ability to adapt to it. That's a really good answer. Yeah. And I did want to ask you about some of your home. Home remedies that you've got for injuries. Some stuff you've come up with. I know. So Liam had a Achilles injury and you gave him a weird kind of home concoction. Can you explain that to us? And any other little tricks you have for people with maybe knee pain or Achilles pain or glute pain or something?

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think I got him to do the night wrap, which is Voltaren cream, hiradoid cream, and cling wrap. And yet you put a blob of Voltaren and hiradoid cream on the painful area over the Achilles and then wrap it with cling wrap and let it drain in overnight for eight hours. So there's a lot of different types of Achilles injuries. So that was to see if there was more just some swelling around the paratenon and the bursa, and it wouldn't apply to everyone. So often with Achilles, you've got to really work on the strength tolerance and slowly make sure that you're building the calf strength and resilience with calf raises and then also pitching the running program accordingly to where they're at. And you can do that through slower running, less heels, less intensity. Shoes that are built up at the back with a higher heel than toe are often quite good to offload the Achilles structure. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to talk specifics with knees. Often I see people with either IT band syndrome or patellofemoral syndrome, which is runner's knee. And runner's knee is when the kneecap gets a little bit of swelling under it. And it's quite a common one, actually. And it's a really good injury to have, which sounds weird to say, but it's good because it responds really well to treatment. So often when people get runner's knee, it's often because more often than not, they're not conditioned enough through their hip stabilizers and their quadriceps biomechanically, I've seen a few runners that didn't respond to a strength program through their glutes and quads, and that was because they had a crossover gait and their knees were pretty much touching each other when they ran. And I've had success with a couple of patients that didn't respond to a strengthening program with changing their biomechanics. So I've had a guy that stands out last year where he could only run 800 meters until his knee pain kicked in. And that happened for three months. And he was really compliant with his exercises. And it wasn't until I got him running in the clinic, one foot either side of the line that went through the center of the carpet that he's like, oh, that feels really good. And then he messaged me two days later and he ran 25 minutes pain free. So biomechanics can feed into it as well. So I've just mentioned that shoes can help strengthening can help changing your running training. So it really is dependent on the person.

Yeah, that's great. That's a great answer. Really good way to finish. Did you have anything else, dad?

No.

Look, I think, Dane, you've summed up almost every aspect of running, from goal setting to consistency to injury prevention, training, overloading. It's so many good aspects that you've mentioned and just not for running, as we talked about off air. They're all relatable to every sport that you're doing and, and, you know, understanding your program and not doing something that's out of reach is what you've, you know, in a summary, you've kind of. You've hit every topic that you know that most athletes, whether they're a runner or a swimmer or a bike rider or a gymnast, you know, you've got to have that mentality with the right structure. And there's so many facets, isn't there, that that eventually lead to a successful outcome, whether that's just a PB or.

Whether you're winning events.

But it's been great to hear how you've gone about it. Yourself and you have walked the walk and you are very much not a person who talks about it. And to get you to open up about your career has been really great because I've known you all your life and you are one of the most quiet, achieving people that I've ever met. And it's so great to see you getting success after so many years of trying your hardest. And, you know, it is fantastic to see the way your career has blossomed and. Yeah. So congratulations, mate. And we're really grateful that you've been able to spend time with us on the podcast. It's been, it's been fantastic. And is there anything else, Jordan, that you wanted to ask Dane?

No, that's. That's it. I second that. Dan, your enthusiasm is infectious and I absolutely have loved the podcast because of that. I always love hearing about your running adventures. I love reading your blog because you're. It's inspiring to read. And we didn't touch on nearly everything at all in this podcast in terms of your setbacks, in terms of some of your long term injuries, even your consistent, you know, medium term injuries, a lot of illness, that kind of thing. And important people to know that you really did have to persevere through that stuff and to hear the positivity that you have and all the learnings you've taken and how you've turned them all into experiences that have helped you grow is what's really inspiring about it and why, like dad said, we've loved seeing your success. So thanks so much for coming on. I think an easy way to summarize how much you love writing is before the podcast, I said to you, what do you want me to tell everyone in your, in your introduction you were going through your career and stuff. The first thing you said was, well, tell them I love running. And I thought, well, they're going to know that by the end of the podcast. Trust me, they'll figure that out. But thanks so much for joining us, Dame. We really, really enjoyed it. Where can everyone find you if they want to listen to your podcast or read your blog?

Yeah, so thanks guys. Firstly, really enjoyed it and always love chatting to you guys and very kind words from Gerry and George. Thanks so much. Means a lot. Yeah, my podcast called the Run Culture podcast. So you can just find that on all the platforms that you listen to your podcast. I've also got an Instagram page called the Run Culture and that's where I normally just weekly update where the podcast is at and also update where the squad that I coach how they're going. So the sort of eight young boys that I'm coaching down on the peninsula, how they're progressing and. Yeah, then also, yeah, run culture on Facebook as well.

Awesome. And you've got a private Facebook group, is that right? For.

Yeah, I've got running injury and support group and got about 900 followers. And it's been really fulfilling running that. And every week I try to put an interesting podcast that I've listened to during the week, maybe on a run. And often those podcasts are about training or injury, injury prevention or various concepts. So, yeah, I've enjoyed that because as a physio, when you're sitting in the clinic, you treat 10 people, but they're often already injured. So it's kind of nice to be a bit more proactive and on the front foot and trying to prevent injury out in the community with a big reach of people. So for me, that's really fulfilling. And yeah, so that group. Yeah, just the running, training and injury support group.

Perfect. That's a great way to finish. Thanks so much, Dane, for coming on. We really appreciate it and we'll hopefully talk to you soon. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Cheers.

Thanks, guys.