Mastering Running Form: Expert Tips with The Balanced Runner

But you could be running with perfect technique, land by, you know, bounce flight, float, little ground contact time. And I could be running with heel strike over stride, braking force, ground contact time. That's the exact same number.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode, we are joined by Paul McKinnon, also known as the Balanced Runner. Paul is an ex professional field hockey player turned movement and running technique expert. He's worked with top athletes across a wide range of sports and currently works with some of the most elite runners in the business, including Australia's very own Brett Robinson, who we know has been in scintillating form in the past 12 months, breaking the Australian marathon record. If you've ever thought you need to change your running technique but thought it might be too late, or you might injure yourself, or you just don't know how, then this episode is for you. We go through some brilliant running cues and form tips to help you become a more efficient runner. Just a note, there were some recording interruptions throughout the episode. I actually went missing for about five to 10 minutes in the middle. So apologies for any interruptions or any parts of the recording that might not be too clear or for some potential repeat questions. Lastly, this episode is brought to you by Giant Australia. The Giant TT bikes are the most used bikes by our Tribalo athletes. Giant are a part of the Tribalo family and we couldn't recommend them more for now. Enjoy the episode. Paul, a very warm welcome and thank you very much for joining us on the podcast.

All right, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah.

The first question we'd love to ask a guest is, what training session did you do today?

I did 30 minutes run and 20 minutes on the stair climber of all things. I thought I wanted to go a bit longer but didn't want to do 50 minutes running. So find that the stairclimber is actually a little bit better than cycling or the elliptical. So that was. That's been my. My day today.

That's a good mix. That's a great example of what you can do if you don't feel like you don't have that motivation to go for the full 50 minutes per hour. Just break it up.

That's good. Break it up. I did the 20 minutes run two to the local gym I go to sometime just run in, do the stair climb again. It's kind of like that strength, endurance based stuff without the impact. Just kind of taking a little bit of that impact away for the day but still get an extra 20 minutes of similar or what I feel like is the most similar mechanically as running and then run on home.

Personally, what are you aiming for? Tell the listeners where you're seeing yourself. I know we're going to talk a lot of technical stuff today, but just from the start, where are you at and what are you aiming for training wise?

Yeah, consistency. I'm not even aiming for something that's actually specific in, in race wise, like trying to create just some consistency of being able to have sort of at least five not, you know, six days a week about running, having a session, having a longer run and just trying to kind of create that consistency. Weirdly enough though, in about six, seven weeks away I've got to play a week of hockey tournament and I'm just not prepared for that. So I think that I'm just going to leave that to be the most shock to the body possible rather than actually do anything because I'm kind of enjoying the consistency of running at the moment. So I don't want to, I don't want to break that up.

So you are the balanced runner and yeah, your, your whole role is to help people with their technique. So we kind of want to come out, right out, right out the gate and say, is there a optimal running form? So if you were to take someone who had never run and probably an adult who had never run before, is there an optimal running form that you would say you need to do these things to have people potentially the most efficient running form?

I think there's, I'd say there's probably four or five really low hanging fruit concepts that yes, definitely wouldn't be trying to model them on any one particular person because of differences in musculoskeletal structure, leg length, background or history of exercise. But I think as far as the movement patterns for each individual, there are I think real basic fundamentals that would fit into those. So I guess in part the answer is yes there is, but then there's kind of nuance of the individual from there.

So what are they? What are those kind of fundamentals that.

You look for, the real fundamentals about arm movement and the symmetry of our movement and what that arm movement is doing and how that's actually providing assistance to a running technique rather than actually taking away from. And those fundamentals do Work on where that movement should be coming from, what sort of forces they are trying to generate and they're not trying to create propulsive forces, more vertical forces to assist with flight and flow and then ranges of motion. So you can restrict range of motion by restricting an arm swing or you can overdo it, overdoing an arm swing. And then the legs have to find or reduce a range of motion as a result torso position, shape. So how the torso is positioned in regards to where the center of mass is, where they're holding tension, where they're not. The position will allow or take away from range of motion of legs. So you know, that torso is a really big fundamental piece. And we'll kind of, I think once we sort of get into some of the questions that you mentioned earlier on, like we'll kind of get into some of the, I guess misconceptions about what the torso can and can't do and how some of the coaching principles still currently, I wouldn't even say previously would still currently coach how they actually affect an influence negatively on an athlete. And then coming down into legs, the coordination or the pattern of the legs. So is it upper or lower leg dominated movement? How does the upper connect to the lower which then in turn creates the landing? So the landing is kind of the last piece for me and is often it is just an outcome. So even then I wouldn't say it's like a piece of the low hanging fruit, however it is a gauge or an outcome of recognition of how the person's moving, what position they're doing it in. So they're probably like the real four main pieces that how we get from where the person is and to that place will be very different. Because you know, some people can have the leg patterning perfect and really good and it's just limited by or affected by hips up. Some people could have something completely wrong in the whole spectrum. So it's like where and how long is that piece of string to get them to that point where they are in a really good position and a really good movement?

Yeah, that's a really good start, I think. And therefore really good things that people could really hone in on if they were listening to this for the first time and really didn't know that there was such a thing as having the optimal efficiency as a runner. And a lot of our listeners would be in that category. And we know that you are coaching right from the very elite and everyday runners. And obviously the pace that people are running would determine a lot of how they look as a runner. And so I'd like to talk about the elite side and I'd like to talk about the age grouper who's, who's in it for fun. You know, he's not trying to break world records, he's just trying to improve. He or she is just trying to improve. What would be the order that you would be looking at? Would you try to do the whole thing together? Or if you could see something that's outstandingly wrong, say the arms are okay, the landing position looks like they've got the brakes on. Every time they, they land their torsos upright. Where would you start? Give us a little glimpse about how you would go about helping someone who's got a lot of fundamental things wrong.

The process that I use is very much like that top down process. So the reason why it is top down because everything above feet and then therefore legs is influenced by or affected by everything above it. So if those arms aren't helping or if they are, then the next piece can be the torso. So we kind of like going from top all the way down to then be able to attack down into the legs. Because it's really difficult to land in a manner that you want to land in, move in a manner that you want to move in if you have exactly what you said, like really upright or arched back or restricted range of motion. So we can try and change that leg pattern all we want, but that top half has got such a fundamental influence on what's happening down there that even if you had the right patterns, that landing is going to be that outcome. And that landing is going to be, I guess, poorly done even if it is in the right place of foot, you know, because if you lean back, you can't land underneath. You know, we always talk about or hear about landing underneath your hips, but if you're leaning back and you're pulling center of mass backwards, it's almost impossible because you're opening up that space. So my process is very much top down. I start with arms normally because of the torso. Ideally I'd like love to start with the torso, but if the arms are making really poor movements or pulling back in a retracted position, it's impossible to actually start and attack that torso. So we've got to go almost like the gateway is that arms to then be allowed the torso to be, to be fixed or improved is probably a better way to put it. And then we can go, cool, what leg pattern are you doing? And all of that process is done really about self awareness, like giving the person, the self awareness as to what they're doing initially and how that's affecting them and then creating a differential. So this is what I want you to do and then actually getting them or giving them the opportunity to tell me how it's influencing them. So it's not just sort of saying, you know, that's better, good, do that. It's like, how do you feel? Like how do you feel that's affecting you? And if it's not an improvement, they won't feel an improvement. And if it's not an improvement, I haven't done my job. So they really want them to be able to walk away and get a feeling of, geez, that's better. I think similarly so for like triathlon listeners or your triathlon athletes, like when you're in the pool, if there is an improvement, there's an improvement in that hydrodynamics, there's an improvement in how they feel in the water, or there's an improvement in time or all the above to go, oh, that feels better, I have to concentrate on it. But you can feel a direct improvement from that change. Running's the same, it's just that relationship with the ground. So if you can improve a movement or a position, then they should be able to tell me what it is that they feel and why they feel it.

So can we just delve a little bit deeper? Let's start with the arms. And I've seen like you so many elite athletes on the telly who've got really beautiful arm actions. And then you might go and see, you know, 5,000 people that cameras on, coming through in the marathon who are running a 3:30 to a five hour marathon Marathon and their arms are doing little or a lot or too much or not enough or sideways action rather than just give us an idea of what you're trying to get. And everybody's going to be different. As you said at the beginning, everybody's got different skeletal structure, genetic ability, flexibility, limb length, range of movement. So where are you looking with their arms? What is in your opinion a good piece of advice for someone who's just trying to think about, well, what should my arms be doing?

Yeah. So I always think about like what role do the arms play in, in the running technique? And so the easiest thing to think about or the first thing to think about is like they're the counter movers to the legs. So we need a counter movement from the upper body to match with or to create the movement down in the lower body. And you know, it's it's a diagonal. So the left works with right, right works with left. And we don't have to think about, okay, right and left, left and right, like it's a natural neurological pattern that we do, however we want to think about. If we restrict a range of motion through our arm swing, we're going to restrict a range of motion and or time for the legs to go through their stride. So if the arms are creating the correct amount of counter swing for that pace, and it can be any given pace, then the legs can match it. If they're not, if they're not creating that correct amount and then or from the correct place, the body is going to do two things, one being restrict the legs or they're going to find that counter movement from elsewhere. And this is exactly what you're talking about when you see, you know, the next couple of thousand runners coming through. That has been their versions and their personal, you know, potluck chance of what they've chosen and what their body's chosen to be their counter movement. So the roles are the counter movement and time kind of goes in hand in hand with that balance and timing. So we're thinking about like a symmetrical movement. If you've got two different movements, right and left, we can't expect to have two different movements, right and left down through the legs. Now that can be in range of motion, it can be in impact, it can be in time, you know, so we don't have a symmetrical. So the arms can assist with or create balance and then therefore timing. So if you've got an even movement or a symmetrical movement to create a timing becomes a lot simpler. And then I think the last thing which becomes what I think is probably the most important is they're there to assist with and create lift. So when we're running, we're trying to create flight and float and bounce. Like we're trying to cover as much distance in the air as possible with this little ground contact time. And it is like it's a bit of a relationship and it's going to change as we go up through paces or come down through paces. But essentially we want to make the most of our ground contact time in the smallest amount. And we want to make the most of our flight time because we're just trying to fight gravity. Now if our arms aren't creating lift and they're not creating a vertical force to assist with the legs role in creating that flight, then it's making it harder. So then we've got left and right forces while we're trying to go up and forward and up and forward and we're getting these movements left and right. So the legs just have to work harder. So they're not helping. So if we can think about those roles and if you are matching all those roles, you're probably doing a good job. But even something as simple as on what, what direction or what plane are you swinging your arms on? Like our shoulder structure, the glenohumeral joint, the ball and socket joint isn't designed 90 degrees. So everyone's has like a 45 degree angle, give or take, depending on the individual. So each individual is going to be slightly different, determined by muscular structure, maybe injuries, maybe the genetics. So you're going to try and find that line as well. So there's a lot to it. What it doesn't do is create like propulsive force. It doesn't touch the ground. So no amount of tension and tightening and force and, you know, like muscling through it is actually going to be implemented. So it's all been wasted energy.

That's such a great starting example. And when you start to look at these specifics, it can almost be a little bit overwhelming to go, oh, wow, I did not know my arms were playing such a role. And I imagine for any everyday runner or even an elite runner who hadn't thought about this before, it can, yeah, be a little bit overwhelming to go, how do I change this and what do I do? And I kind of want to ask a little bit of a broader question and get your thoughts on what is our ability to change technique overall and how much confidence can we have that, you know, if I've run with this certain form for a long time, how much can I change it? How much is changeable?

What's possible for me, completely changeable. I'd like return a question and say, how much is changeable in a swimming technique? Running's no different. It's if the difference is nothing is changeable in a swimming technique unless it's done properly, same as running. And I think that's where we've had that real disconnect with running because. And completely understandable. It's like, oh, hang on, you know, I've run all this time and you know, I've seen, I've heard people have tried to do technique change previously and you think, wow, it hasn't really worked. But also then you think, has it been the correct way? And so you can say the same thing with any movement pattern or anything in the world is like, if it's done Poorly, of course it's not going to be good for you. So I think it's about how you're doing it. And then therefore, yes, the next big thing. Yeah, you can change it and you can change it for the better.

Yeah, that's a great answer because it gives. Gives athletes confidence that. Cause I think that would be. And you can tell me if you agree or disagree. But I think it would be one of the big misconceptions with running that you're stuck with your running form, you know, and people say I've always run this way.

Correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I think also because then it's like, even like for coaches, you go, oh, it's a difficult change that, you know, it's too hard to change. Like, because the person hasn't done it, that's not them that's on the coach. Like, that's. If I can't make a change for the individuals because I'm not doing my job, it's not the individual not taking those changes. That's not a them problem. Like, that's a me problem if I can't get them to understand it because I'm not asking them the right questions, giving them the right feedback. So. And it kind of comes back to then if you're giving them a wrong, wrong cues or the wrong developmental or skill acquisition and it's like, well, it's probably not the right stuff. So don't, don't just dare put it on the athlete. That's you trying to put a square peg into a round hole and say, that's. That's better. No, it doesn't work that way. So I think you're right. And I always laugh at the concept of, oh, no, that's just how we run. The two parts to it is that just because that's how they've always run. Apparently, like, running is the only movement in the world where you can't change your mechanic. You know, like, there's just that one thing in this whole concept of movement patterns and, and skill acquisition that running is the only one thing that you can't change. Because I get every now and again a few people going, oh, if you go to. Go to kids and they just run so natural, you know, five, six, seven. I can tell you now, I used to be a teacher, put a skill in the schoolyard of, you know, 30 or 60 kids and line them up and get them to run. I can tell there'd be about four or five that run. Well, the other one are horrible. They're not going to get injured because they're so pliable and malleable and they're not just, they're just not running very much, which they shouldn't either. So like there's just so many misconceptions around that. Rather than at that 6, 7, 8 year old, how about we give him those fundamental three or four things, arms, torso, leg pattern and just go over it every year. Because what we can do is we can get to the end of year 12 or end of year 10 and now we've got, okay, geez, look at, they all run similarly. And so they should. There's an ideal movement pattern that we want to actually replicate, but it's not going to be like specifically the same for every person, but the movement pattern itself. Like there's a study of biomechanics about running that says which is a better best case. So yeah.

It'S a great topic because you become more efficient when you do it a lot. And that's a sentence that every expert will say. Well, that's not necessarily true, but you look at the kids who have had to run to school for 6k and then run home from 6k from school to their home. Again, this is an extreme example, but they will become very efficient at making it as easy as possible to do that run. Whereas the kids who have caught the bus, who don't do any running, they're not actually practicing, they're running, they're running efficiency or they're running patterns. And that has a lot to do with how. And you think about the world, where are these people who are actually having to run to school and back? Well, they're in the places like Kenya and the African nations where there isn't a lot of public transport and people are too poor to have cars. Whereas in the modern world where we are living, everything's getting dropped off, kids are barely riding their bikes to school. So does that form better patterns or more incorrect patterns for the kids who are doing it right from an early age compared to the kids who are in a luckier world that we live in, who actually don't run a lot. And therefore then they decide as a 40 year old to take up running, they've lost all that instinctive style of running. What are your thoughts on that?

Look, there'd be a part to that that I'd agree with. I think that the, the example you made of the little bit more or just say isolated area to get, to get to school. I think the more they run, the more economical they'll get at their movement pattern. So they'll become conditioned in their movement patterns. And I think then their movement patterns themselves will be determined by they're in a really good position that the greatest running athlete around has a supremely good efficient technique. So if they're going to copy anyone and they copy Kip Shogi, like it's a pretty good person to copy. But I think I wouldn't necessarily agree with the fact that if they run so much, they will then create an efficient movement. It'll be that their movement becomes more economical because they're doing lots of it. And I think that's where another kind of lost translation with running. It's like, well now you have your technique and you do it for more and you structure it well. Like you have coaches like yourselves and you're structuring it in a manner that's like progression and not doing too much and not adding too much intensity and that, that's kind of like the conditioning portion of it. So they get more economical at doing their movement pattern from training rather than actually changing a movement pattern to become more efficient. Because we can actually create efficiency within a session. You can't create economy in a session that takes like the training or it takes strength and conditioning to, to be stronger and then utilize less oxygen for the same movement. Or we can change the movement so that we can actually get more out of each movement. So in part I do agree with you, I think but in the other part of it it's more about the differentiation between the two because I think you could use someone like a Brett Robinson as an example who's born and raised in Canberra. It's a pretty middle class town and he has beautiful mechanics. So it's not necessarily the nature. Yeah. And the environment. Some people get lucky, some people don't and they have to work on it. Some people don't and they don't work on it. So you sort of think about where are we on that kind of structure? So yeah, so half and half I'd agree with you, Jared.

So yeah, I just want to keep going through some of the big common mistakes or misconceptions that you think are worth highlighting. Because I think that first one where Jim just getting rid of that belief that you can't change your form is really important as a starting point. But what else do you think is worth noting for any athlete who's, who's looking to improve that efficiency and economy?

I think in some cases like trusting what they feel like. I watched this real. It's funny, as a runner over in the States. Should read a magazine article through one of the magazines. I won't say which one. And in those tips were shoulders back, chest out. Make sure your ears are in line with your shoulders in that back position. And she went through this video saying, this feels horrible. What am I doing? What am I doing? Right? Then it says, move here to here. So these cues that are given in this reputable running magazine, if you try them and they don't feel like they're improving, there's a very good reason for it, you know. So if we go to those real misconceptions of technique at the moment, that shoulders back, chest out is a really good one that I use a lot. Because you think, okay, we're trying to propel ourselves forward. You think about, like, having this forward lean, but by pulling our chest and our shoulders and our weight backwards is counterintuitive to physics. So that mass forward. If we're pulling our shoulders and our chest out and our shoulders back, we're actually shifting mass backwards and we're trying to have a forward lean. So it's counterintuitive to just the physics. And everything about biomechanics is physics and movement. So the cue of run upright and tall with your shoulders back and your chest out is actually putting all your center of mass on top of, if not behind, your power structure, which is legs. So even something as simple as that, it's almost as silly as if you're trying to jump start a car, but instead of pushing it, you're trying to pull it. It's something as simple. They're the mechanics of it. Like you're putting your mass in behind you rather than in front.

What's the tip on that? Just before you move on, on that particular action of having an upright body, what is the tip that you give to your. To your runners that present looking exactly like that? Because we have. We have quite a few runners who do actually present like that. And. And I'm interested in hearing what your tip is to get them to start training with a lead so that they've got the center of gravity underneath their eyeballs almost. What are your tips for that?

The thing I'd always talk about. Cause it's normally like a tension, you think the thought process, because you think, okay, oh, they're really stiff and tight or tense. And often you think or you hear about relax your face, relax your jaw, relax your hands and your wrists to try and run a bit relaxed. Whereas I'm like, no, no, let's find out what muscles are Actually engaged and turn them off. So it's like, which muscles do you feel specifically to the athlete? You know, where are you tight? You know, are the scapulas actually drawing together? What muscles do you feel switched on most and saying, switch them off, and then all of a sudden, if you can allow them that awareness and that feeling, then you're going, cool. So now you know what it feels like to have them off. And in this case, more often than not, they'll feel rounded, but the reality is they're just in a neutral position. But rounded. They feel rounded because compared to their normal, they are further forward. So it's like, what are we trying to achieve? So let's actually focus in on that. Exactly. What you're saying is, like, if they're in that position and pull back here. Well, let's focus on what's pulled back and disengage and put it forward.

I really love. I've heard you say that, I think you might have even said it on this podcast already as well, that from the waist up, you're not getting any more force. Whereas it's a very natural feeling to feel like if I tense my arms more, if I tense my chest, I might get faster or more force. And that's. That's also just not true.

Right?

Yeah. And the hard thing is, I think subconsciously and like, I still don't know the psychology behind it. It's like when you're getting fatigued, you're trying to run faster. Like, it's. I'm trying to put more effort in. And the real awareness marker of going, I have to actually think I can't apply force. And in fact, I'm actually making it harder for me. So, you know, soften, melt, be in the right position. And then, you know, you can't beat fatigue, you know, like, but we're trying to delay it or we're trying to make it as easy as possible, and you just. This is going to make it even harder. That fatigue level is going to shoot up. So awareness, shoot. I've changed. I'm back in my, you know, back in my upright position or restricted position, shift back into it and then, you know, find that rhythm again. Even, like, even something as simple as that, what we're talking about, that upright just. That is actually restricting lung capacity. So it's not even just about physics. So that if you pull shoulders back and take the biggest, deepest breath in and out, and then you compare it to a neutral position, lung capacity is completely different. So this coached terminology of upright and Tall and chest out because you can feel your lungs with it. You're just thinking, have you even tried this? Those type of things like frustrate you just think, well just kind of keep continuing. Trying to give the right information. Trying to give the right information.

Was it you that put up the post recently where I think a study actually showed, you know, how all the, the football coaches would tell you to put your hands on your head after a break and letting down and growing up running training, I would always lean on my knees and whenever I'd go to a session like, like a footy session, they'd put your hands in your head. I would just refuse because I'm going.

That feels way worse.

And you, you know it instinctively. But it's great that the research didn't come out like that.

Yeah, yeah. And I was the same like, oh, you know, hands on hands and walk around and like no, I used to get in trouble. So I was like, it was like that. Yeah, it probably wasn't great in a, you know, like in a compliance issue. But it's a reason why we, yeah. Go to this position. Like I agree with, don't stand still because if you've got, you know, lactate pooling, you want to keep some movement happening but at least allow people to be position. And I use that a lot with my athletes. Like there's even a, like a, a prenatal nurse that I was coaching and she said, yeah, that makes sense because we even teach, you know, ladies in deep pregnancy if they're getting shortness of breath to actually get in that position because counterintuitive. You think, well hang on, there's something there and I'm still going to get in that position because it makes it easier to breathe and yet we get taught to run in this position. I think that like a just becomes mind blowing.

I love that tip you gave on and having the muscles turned off that are not contributing to the action. And look, we've all watched the 100 meter sprint final for the men and women and the slow mo of their whole cheek just being relaxed, no tension in their face. And of course they're using their arms to swing themselves, but their arms aren't tight, they're relaxed. Everything about their upper body is relaxed. I love that vision and that's almost saying exactly what you and these guys are trying to run maximal. And we're talking to the general population here who are maybe running a marathon pace and it still matters, doesn't it, to have that upper body in as relaxed as possible. Mode. And the things that should be working are the things that are going to contribute to the forward movement.

Spot on. Because if you, if you, if you tighten up and you tense, you're going to restrict a range of motion or you're going to make that range of motion harder to go through for them because they're, they're producing such forces and, you know, their cadence is so high and high turnover. They need to be strong both to take force and load and apply it correctly without just, you know, losing all structure, but also arrest movement and return in such short timeframes. So they need to be quite stacked, but they need to be so relaxed through that movement. Otherwise, yeah, their stride shortens. And as soon as their stride shortens, they're not covering distance. And if they're not covering distance, they're not running fast.

Let's take it now. We've had a really good go at everything above the waist. Let's talk about the hips and the alignment and forward tilt. You know, how does the hip contribute to the forward movement?

So if we're thinking about like that alignment of sort of hips to shoulders, I think naturally people get into a pretty good hip position. It looks often anteriorly tilted because of the rest of the body, so upright or even arched backwards. And I think we'll get caught in thinking that it's the hips or the pelvis's fault and like, oh, I gotta tuck that under when you go. No, that's probably in a pretty good position because they're literally pushing in that angle of mass forward. So it would almost be actually matching that. Now there are times when that's not the case. Like it is too far under or if it is too anterior tilted and that lumbar spine is actually causing a real anterior tilt. So it does have a big part to play. But then the alignment of the pelvis will then allow and influence how much range of motion you can get and where that range of motion is used through femur swing. So thinking about that femur swing both forward and back, it's not just extension, it's not just knee drive, it's the relationship between the two. So, yeah, super important. But it's like that's going to be influenced by even spinal shape rather than just the hip position itself.

And on that, if, if a person who's just. I'm really trying to talk to the everyday runner here and not honing in on the elite runners who have got the best form. What about limitations in their flexibility for that? Is that something that you would Be telling them to go away and really work on or. Yeah, take us through what you. If you see someone who you're trying to get into a. Into a certain state of stride, but they've got limitations with flexibility, with hip flexors or glutes or lower back, tell us your thoughts.

I think it can occur. It's probably less, less frequent than what you might think in regards to, like, being a restricted range of motion. Because I think if most people would stand and do leg swings as a warmup, they can go through a big enough range of motion that could match or mimic the amount that they needed running. Because running such a submaximal sport, anything from pretty much 1500 up, you're going to be probably running maybe slightly less than full range of motion. And if we're talking about the athlete that's doing half marathons and marathons, that they're not even going to go through 60% of the range of motion. So the majority of them will have enough flexibility. What happens, though, is depending on how and where they move in, their range of motion will determine what gets tight or overused. So if we think about that hip flexor mechanic or hip flexor tightness, it's more that they're not ever going past a neutral portion of their hip range and therefore not creating an elastic, you know, stretch through the hip flexor. So that elastic stretch will create knee drive. But if they're just going to neutral and then having to pick their leg up again, all they're doing is going from a neutral position to a shortened position over and over and over again. And what that will do is create tight hip flexors. And it's not that the hip flexors aren't strong. It's not that their hip flexors, you know, I always get tight hip flexors from running. It's that they are creating or they are going through a movement pattern that relies almost solely on the hip flexors to lift the leg, rather than that relationship between extension and then inflection. Because if we think about the opposing muscles, I always find it funny. The opposing muscles, you know, glutes and then hip flexor. You know, the hip flexor is like a thin, bandy, tendinous muscle. So it needs the glute to be able to actually stretch it, create elasticity, and then drive the knee up. Now, if you're creating. The other part is if you're creating a mechanic that lets the leg go on the ground all the way behind and then starts to lift, which was what I call like a Lower leg dominant movement. What it's doing is it's taking time on the ground behind the body, and then it's coming up off the ground, still taking up time. And that's time away from creating knee drive or flexion. So we can actually go the other way as well. So it's like, it's the mechanic that they do to then create the muscles that they'll use. And if it's not the right muscles or it's not shared, then you can actually start to recognize like, oh, shoot, maybe I'm not actually using. Using the correct mechanic.

So just going forward on that, then, Paul, with. With people who have got a really minimal heel lift at the back and a minimal knee propulsion at the front, and they're almost shuffling. What are the. What are the key things you're trying to get them to do?

Yeah, yeah.

So that I think. I guess the easiest way to explain it is, you know, if we think about, like, the leg mechanics themselves, and we're thinking about a running mechanic compared to a walking mechanic. When we walk, you know, our arms are in a, you know, lengthened state down the side of our body, and our feet, foot, and hand and the opposite side match. You know, they move together forward and back. That's a walking mechanic. And you push over that front leg and it is that long levering movement. The running mechanic. Ideally, what happens is when you get your hands up to create a shorter lever, you want the humerus, the upper arm to match, and pendulum swing with the upper leg. So that's the movement of a running mechanic. Now you won't have an over stride. You'll land closer to the center of mass. What's happening with the movement that you are talking about is the arm, however they move in the upper body. And this is what I was saying, like, no matter how you move up here, it'll go into influence. But irrespective of how the upper body is moving, that lower leg dominant flat movement that you talked about is their elbow swing is still matched with their foot. So as they swing forward, it's the arm and the foot that are meeting and matching and working together, rather than the upper arm and the upper leg. So their mechanic and their coordinated pattern of movement is not creating a running mechanic, it is creating a walking mechanic. Now they're getting flight and float, so they're getting off the ground, but they're having to work really hard to create that. And then they hit in front of the body and they create a braking force and then takes a long time to get through each stride because they're on the ground for such a period of time. And then as you're saying like it comes up and then it has to reach forward again. So it's a really flat movement. But it's not that they're landing wrong and it's not that their cadence is too low. It is that their mechanic that they use to run is still a walking mechanic. So they're race walking but cheating.

Let's go from that, that point you've just raised about time spent with your feet on the ground compared to, you know, the elite runner who's basically just touching the ground and just getting an amazing set of propulsion because he's timing and he's, his upper body is in the right spot. And you know, they are magnificent machines to watch runners when they're running.

Fast, beautiful.

And then, and then you get to the everyday runner who's, who's, who's anything from a shuffler to kind of nice, a nice looking runner. I know that the fitness component plays a role at the end of the a marathon or a half marathon where your form might deteriorate because specifically you're not fit enough to hold the right running technique. Are there any tips that you could give other than get fitter to your runners that you would say, look, once you feel your form going, what are the key things you should be honing in on here to try and keep yourself from minimizing the shuffle?

Look, it does depend on the athlete at the time. Like they might have a specific cue to be working on at that time. So it's like just keep coming, coming back to that because that's going to be the best version or the most efficient version and you are going to get worse at that. As fatigue holds, however, that's going to be a better start point. So as you get fatigued, A, it's probably going to take a little bit longer to get to that point. But B, if you start points at a better version compared to your old version, like that old version is going to get worse and worse and it's going to get worse earlier. So it's really coming back to what are you working on? Go back to that now. If they've gone through a huge, you know, if we've worked together for 18 months or two years or we've gone through this big process of complete change, then there might be, not necessarily, you know, a couple of things, but it's like what works best for you, what for that individual, it's like what brings you Back into either awareness or your best movement. And let's use that.

Unreal. I really want to hone in a little bit more on the actual, the style of runner that you see. Some people are heel strikers, some people are landing on their toes. What is the most efficient method, and I know it is very specific to every certain body part that you possess in your body. When you're looking at a runner and you see that they're just. They're just doing everything right except their heel striking more than you want them to. What are the things that you would be telling them to do in their. In their practice to try and. Or would you be saying, that's great, stay with that. We'll try and move different things.

If it was in a stage of development. Yeah, if it was in a stage of development where that was like the last piece, like, they're doing the right thing from all the way down into that last piece. Okay, just keep working on what we're supposed to be working on now and we'll make that change next. The reality is, if they're doing everything right up until that point, 90 or like say nine times out of 10, the landing is going to change. Because if you're using that upper leg dominated movement and you're not allowing that lower leg to actually get out in front of the knee and create that either slight or big over stride, it is almost impossible to land on a heel because you're actually at that point. It's for those people that have a really big dorsiflexion and they're creating a different angle of lower leg into foot that then they can still create a heel strike, although they're in good movement, good position, correct pattern of movement of legs and coordinated pattern of legs. It's just that last little piece. Otherwise they'd be landing where you want to do it. Now, the staging of that, the other side of the benefit of being top down is as you make these changes, it influences the landing. The landing starts to come closer. So it gets closer and closer and closer to that landing pattern that we want to get to anyway. And their conditioning a little bit by a little bit by a little bit to get to that point until it's like, oh, it's not such a big change. Whereas we think about a lot of the times, I think it's like 90 to 95% of incidents of injury for those people who try and change their landing pattern without changing anything else. So there's that staged and developed process to be able to allow them to Actually make that change as a resultant and as a process rather than.

Being.

The focal point of it. And I think that's when I get really critical about like cadence being a focal point as well, because it is an outcome of movement, time on ground, pace, leg length, sometimes terrain. So it's like we can't focus on the outcomes we need to work out. If it's. If I use the cadences as an example again, we can have like, you and I could be running together, just an easy run, 30, 40 minutes and we could both be running at like 165 cadence. And most people go, oh, that's, that's a. Maybe that's a bit low. But you could be running with perfect technique. Land buy, you know, bounce, flight, flow, little ground contact time. And I could be running with heel strike over stride, breaking force, ground contact time. That's the exact same number. Me getting a high number is not going to actually change my movement pattern. And nor would anyone or nor would I suggest anyone would tell you, oh, you should have a higher cadence. No, you're just working really efficiently. You don't need to have lots of steps. You don't have to create flight and float any more than what you're already doing. Just allow you to keep going through it. Whereas me, it's like, okay, why is it so low? And you look at it and go, oh, that's why. So changing the outcome isn't going to change. And changing my landing isn't going to change. Changing my cadence isn't going to change that. It's how are you moving, how are you positioned? What's that leg pattern of movement? It's like, oh, hang on, there's a fair bit going here.

Where does cadence come in then? In your opinion, is there an optimal cadence that we should be running at? Great.

No, no chance.

So sorry, George.

Oh, I just, I just hear people say to me all the time, like, well, I have to run 175. That's what everyone on the Internet says. Like, that's. And yeah, I'm glad that you just said flat out.

No, no, no, flat out. No, flat out now. So you can go from two ends of the spectrum. So you can see like a, you know, Paul Chile might be doing 600 reps and he's. His cadence is, you know, 200 to 210. You're going to tell him to do 180 at the high pace. Similarly, he's going to be running at, you know, four 34 minute pace. He's not going to be running at 175, 180. He doesn't need to, you know, like there's a range and then that's going to be determined by, you know, the efficiency of your movement pattern for one. And that's where I'm looking at it. But even something as simple as say all three of us ran with perfect mechanics and all three of us are running together at five minute pace, you know, if Jordy's got long legs and I've got tiny little short legs and you've. Which kind of do. And you've. And Jared, you've got, you know, medium leg length and we're going through a perfect mechanic. We're going to have different cadence. You know, it's going to cost me less effort for each one of my steps because they are shorter levers. It's going to cost Jordy more effort for each one of his steps. However, I'm going to take more. This is the beauty of running is that the physics of a kind of even out if you do it correctly, it's then if you don't, then we've got this huge variance that was.

That's a great example you use. And you, I'm sure you would have seen that viral clip that went round of Chelimo who you're talking about doing those sessions often. Yeah, yeah. So can you, can you talk us through that? Because to give the listener example, it's Chillimo and Ortega, two different event runners. Ortega's more marathon runner than Chalimo, but the video went viral because he's just. Is that right? Louis Ortega? Is that who the runner was?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Chelima just looks as beautiful as possible. He just looks so smooth and, and Ortega looks like his chest is really high and he's really straining to keep up. But he's an elite runner in himself. So can you talk us through? Everyone's absolutely grilling him for his high cadence and his, his form looking worse. But there's a couple of elements here.

Yeah, yeah, but it is like, and I think that's a really good example because. And it is an example that I'll use when I'll go and like do presentations or if I use the example of, you know, torso position and shape influencing range of motion. So the easiest thing and the argument is he's a bit shorter than Chalimo. Yes. And I can see that for sure. So there's going to be a slight difference in leg length or there's a slight different leg length difference. However, because of the position that he gets himself in. And if you watch that video again, he's almost at 90 degrees into his sacrum. He's like leaning back. So straight away he is restricting range of motion into or through extension. So now all of a sudden he's got shorter legs and he's restricting his range of motion. So in that video, and that's why I used this for him though before, he uses 204, that's his cadence. Luis is using 246. Now. He was only doing a 400 rep compared to Chilimo's 600 rep. Now the other argument was, oh, but he's a half marathon marathon runner. Chilimo's a 5k runner. It doesn't matter. In this example, they're running the same pace, the same distance. They're not racing over 5k or half marathon. They're doing 400 reps or 600 reps depending on which individual you are. But the movement has been determined by, yes, shorter leg. So you will naturally have to have a higher cadence slightly, but not 40 steps more. So that range of motion is actually restricted by his body position. And the other thing, if you look really closely, he's actually got a hitch in his step too. It's not even. And if you watch him when he's doing his longer runs, he's actually got two different landing patterns. So he's got a flat to heel strike on one foot and he's got a high toe strike on the other. And he wants like it keeps getting injured on one of his feet. But you know, like there's such this argument around. Oh no, no, no, no, this like I'm a bit shorter and I'm a marathon runner, it doesn't work like that. Champ.

That's great. That's awesome. So yeah, when you, when you do go to a half ironman or Ironman event, it is. There's such intense events, but not in the way that people expect. When you go and watch the spectator, everyone is just shuffling, shuffling through it at an average, a lot slower pace than you'd expect. You know, the average pace can go from 5 minute K pace up to 7, 7 and a half. And so when we're looking at optimal form, you know, how do we think about this when really we are just shuffling along and your whole goal at this point is almost survival. When you're getting to an end of a half ironman or Ironman, you really can't be thinking about, or you're probably not thinking about your arm swing and your leg drive. But at the same time you need to be getting yourself forward as efficiently as possible. And it's almost more important in a marathon to do that because you're trying to conserve as much energy. So can you talk us through some kind of cues or tips at this point when your form goes out the window to how you might be running when you're running more comfortably?

Well, the same applies that when you're actually doing your longer runs or your reps during training where it is just specific running. However, you got to think about it as being like a smaller version of it. So we're thinking about a smaller range of motion, a smaller lift, a smaller step. But we still want the concepts and the fundamental movement patterns and the positioning to be the exact same. It's just your ability to create and maintain a force and a range of motion becomes diminished because you've just been exercising for, you know, if you, anywhere between four and 12 hours, how good you are and what, what discipline like if the half or the full. So we don't want to take away from the fact that you've been exercising for a whole period of time. So you're not going to be running at that same pace. However, the movement is the same, it's just a smaller version. And the best example I can give is that if, if you and I are, you know, throwing a baseball to each other and over 20 meters, we're not going to have a full blooded throw. You know, we're just going to actually have the same mechanic done slightly smaller so we can actually cover that distance. So my output is less if you're 60 meters away. You know, I might have a full one. You know, if you're 100 meters, I have to run up and really throw it out and probably won't quite make it. But you know, like we're thinking about the range of motion and the force applied will change, the movement doesn't. So we're trying to then be really, really aware of what a small version of that ideal movement pattern is. And then yeah, you got to think about it. I mean, I'm sure they're probably thinking about it through their swim when they're getting fatigued and their body position in a TT position when they're, when they're cycling. So I don't think any of that changes. So running is no different. It's just that you're probably even more and more under stress and fatigue. And then all of a sudden you've got components of nutrition and hydration that's going to affect concentration as that as well. So I understand all that. But the fundamental movement pattern and concepts are the same and what you are working on at that time is going to be your best option to work on.

So I love that you've just said that because I have a lot of pushback from a lot of the runners where I'm saying you should try to keep your movement pattern identical whether you're running 2 minute k pace, which no one's running, or 6 minute k, 6 minute k base. So but oh, you know, I can't run that slow. That's what I get. And the runner might be a 5 minute K runner and, and I'm saying to him, I wanted you to run 5:30 pace today and you ended up still running 5 minute K pace. No matter what I give you, you're going to your go to pace but I can't do anything else. What's your, what's your answer to that?

Oh, I see this a lot Jared, and it's, it's a really interesting thing because I think you're both trying to do the right thing. So like you're trying to give them and prescribe the right pace. It's going to keep them in a, in an area that they can consistently hold it. And they're for the most part, I'm sure some aren't but for the most part the majority of them would be trying to run that as well. And I don't think there's not like a, you know, a stuff you moment. If we go back to what we're talking about with that lower leg dominated or coordinated pattern, which is a walking mechanic, at one point or another they're going to have to create such a small movement that they're not going to create flight time. So now at 5, 45 or even 6 minute pace, it doesn't feel like a run to them anymore because they're not getting flat time. So at one point or another they've always got at least one foot on the ground. So then they go, oh, I'm not running. So I'll create my movement pattern that I use until I can feel like running again. Then it gets up to like 5:30, 5, 15. It just kind of feels easier for me to do that. And it's actually a feeling of running as opposed to a neglect of what they're supposed to be doing. And then the hard thing for you is like, but then your heart rate goes up. So they're working at a pace and through a movement that's actually too fast for their heart rate to maintain a low one. But if they go to the pace that will allow the heart rate to slow down. They're not running anymore. So there's a, there's a gap. Well, there's a band because if we go back to then if we create a running mechanic which is that upper leg movement, you can run at 7:38 minute pace and still get flight and float and bounce. But it's not again going back to that landing on a specific part of the foot. It's what movement are you creating to create your relationship with the ground to then be able to do that and keep that low heart rate. So I think it's a. Yeah, it's really difficult for coaches because you see this thing like I've given you this, but you've given me this where there's a gap here and I think there's a real, real, real reason for it. And it's. That's the mechanic and the movement of the legs and then therefore the relationship with the ground.

And that's great that it can be actually fixed because the pace they're going to select that go to pace which you know, we, if we say they're going to run four hours and five minutes for that, for that marathon in the Ironman and they start off at 5 minute K pace, it's unsustainable. They can't hold it. They can't keep that pace going. And, and that's the answer I'm getting. But it felt good. It felt comfortable. Of course it did. You're fresh. It's. It's halfway through, it's 5k into the race. Of course. It's great.

Yeah.

And trying to teach the athlete to run at that pace is one of the key things that we're. And it's great that you've come up with those little tips that you've just got to reduce everything. Like the throw example you gave is just make the force reduced.

Even if you make the wrong mechanic and you make a smaller version of it, that's when it becomes the walking. So then you go, oh, I can't actually run at that pace. Then you go, that should start to tweak with the interview. If I can't run at that pace, I'm not running like I'm, I'm race walking but cheating. So you're going back to that again. I'm using the walking mechanic to, to run rather than actually a running mechanic. And yeah, you're spot on.

So one of the biggest things with age groupers is injury risk. And getting to the start line is as much a battle as have healthy as as actual the training load and, and the actual race itself. And especially with running, you know, running injuries can be so prevalent. So I'd love to know your thoughts on one, what kind of patterns do you see? Any commonalities between certain patterns causing more injury? And two, when changing your running pattern or attempting to change what is the injury risk there and how do you try and prevent that as much as possible?

100%. Let's see specific movement patterns creating injury like that's that over stride and yes, we say heel strike but it is the movement pattern that's creating a braking force and creating excess ground contact time. Because any time that you spend on the ground and any increased breaking for force is stress on the body. Now the other part to that is what mechanic are you taking load? Now if you're hitting out in front and you are using irrespective if it's heel strike or mid foot with the same mechanic, it's just where's that load going? So if it's the heel strike with that over stride you're going to be taking it through a pronation movement. There's going to be tib post, there's going to be medial stress, there's going to be itb. It's probably going to be up into hip and sacral or even like glute me tendinopathy in a propulsive manner. It's going to be high hamstring because you're using hamstring and using your calf, you're using plantar fascia to actually create force. So the mechanic that you are using to create your propulsion is going to be where you load the muscles. So you can see it straight away. Now the same mechanic done with a midfoot strike. So this is to highlight this not about the strike pattern. Now it's going to go through your met. So you're going to go, you know, stress through your mets because it's at an angle. You're going to be shortened in calf when you're landing. So it's all going to go into calf and Achilles and then you're going to go through that same movement. You're going to use calf and hamstring to create your force. So we can actually start to reduce the force by changing mechanic, changing body position. So we're decreasing the braking force. Now we're not going to remove all forces because that's the nature of running, but we can actually start to reduce it despite what people think. Then if you reduce the ground contact time because it is that spring loaded return of energy. Rather than break, start again, break, start again, we can actually return some of the energy and then, I don't know, I think we're going to get to this at some point is how that then relates into the shoes as well. You know, like if you're moving in the best possible manner, you will make the most out of the shoe. Now the shoe will still give you an economic return for a poor movement pattern, but it gives you nowhere near as much as what it gives you for a really good movement pattern. And to highlight that the like Nike. The guy that I stay with is the senior shoe developer at Nike. He does vapor fly and Alphafly. Their testing for the vapor fly was initially 2 to 7% economical improvement. That's economical, not efficiency. So it doesn't change the mechanics, it just allows you to do your mechanic a little bit more economically. And what they found was that 2 to 7% was a varying degree of the individual's movement patterns. So the poor move has got 2%. The really elite movers got 7%. Now the average was 4%. So the name 4%. So we can actually highlight, you know, the geometry of the shoe being able to actually land properly and get off that foot sooner because of the geometry and utilize the mid foot compounds and the carbon plate. Now if you can move poorly with a braking force, that midsole is really great. It'll take shock and you can kind of get through it a little bit better, but nowhere near as well as the other one. So even something as simple as that is like how do you use or make the most of the technology that's being used? So it just starts to like feed and roll into each other.

It's almost this wheel of mechanics where there's, there's so many different elements coming into it and it's, I guess each person would have a different area where it's impacting them more. And some people, the, yeah, the shoe might be having a greater impact or a lesser impact. It might be the heel strike, it might be their stride length.

And yeah, you start to see movement patterns. Yeah. And it is because you can start to see movement patterns and it's not bucketing each individual into, you know, a specific bucket, but certain movements load certain parts of the leg. So certain parts of the leg are going to be more susceptible because of certain movement patterns. It's just natural. Like if you use stuff more, it will get stressed. And if you make a movement that's not the Most ideal, you're going to stress that area. In my head, you just think it's not that difficult.

Is it a misconception or a myth that because this is the biggest, I would say this is probably seems to be the biggest resistance to changing your running pattern is, oh, I'll get injured. I've run this way all my life. If I change it, I'll get injured. Which I guess logically makes sense if you think about you're recruiting potentially new muscles that you don't use as often. So what are your thoughts on that?

So Jared and I, we spoke about this before and I think that's the, the benefit of that top down approach is that as you change stuff from the top and you improve it to the right movement, the right position, naturally it's actually changing developmentally the landing position, the landing pattern, the landing time and the time on ground. And what we're doing is actually trying to slowly bring it into a good position. So what you're doing over the course over 6, 12, 18 months is you are slowly conditioning closer and closer until inevitably one cumulative queue or another will actually change the landing pattern. But what I'll see is that we can get down to a couple and I'll see, oh, well, next Q is probably going to do it or the next two cues. So you can actually start to set them up for success anyway. You know, create some little hopping, dynamic movements, some strengthening stuff. But even then, because we've staged it over such a long period of time that it's not going to cause an injury, as you said. Yes, we're loading different, you know, muscle structures or parts of the body that are going to be used more or differently. And it can, but if we stage it over time, we can actually get it ready for it rather than just like, you know, whack it in the face. The thing about changing mechanics is normally is it's foot focused or leg focused? Normally foot focused. And the first thing you do is I'm going to just change my landing pattern. As I said, there's like a 90, 95% of incidence of injury for heel strike the midfield because all they've done is done the exact same movement in the exact same position with the exact same outcome, except they've just added another lever. So now I'm just going to load somewhere else. Of course you're going to get injured because you just done this huge change at the end result rather than actually understanding what was causing the problem in the first place.

So I guess this is probably a good Area to finish and talk about the shoe technology and how shoe affects form, affects pace. Yeah. What can you hit us with to finish? What are your thoughts on everything that's happening? The development is crazy. You're kind of in there hands on, you're seeing it right. You're doing a lot of work at Nike headquarters.

Specifically.

Specifically. So what can you tell us about, about your shoes and efficiency, economy, everything?

Well, I wouldn't say I'm doing any work at Nike headquarters. I don't want to put myself but I'm around the person that is. I don't want to take anything. That's what I meant. Sorry, I just wanted to clarify for my own. I think, you know, like always think about of examples. Like to think that putting a shoe on the foot is going to change an arm swing or a body position for me is kind of funny like, but we hear it so often, oh it changes your. Changes your form. No it doesn't. Changes your relationship with the ground. So how soon, how quick, how does that feel like how much impact you have when you do your mechanic? What it can do is it can improve your version in economy wise, but it's not going to change the version of your movement. So like putting on a wetsuit isn't going to make you a much more efficient swimmer. It's not going to change your movement patterns similarly to a shoe. Like it's not going to change your movement patterns, but what it's going to do is going to help with the economy side of your movement pattern.

I think that's a really good explanation. And if people can understand that the shoes, unless you have the right movement patterns, the shoe's not really going to be the game changer that people think it is. And I think that's the key thing is, you know, you have to understand fundamentally that you are running with the right technique and then the shoe will facilitate that to allow you to propel yourself further faster. That's.

Yeah. And I think the facilitation is a really good word. Like it facilitates an improvement across the board. However, not in the manner that what people think and maybe not as much as what you think if you're moving in a particular way. I think something as simple as just looking at the tread on the shoe. There's two half inch strips on the heel of a vapor fly. It's literally about an inch and a half long and half an inch wide, you know, centimeter and a half wide, 3cm long. And we think oh no, it's okay to land there they're not even really designed for it. Like they are, like they're thick enough for it, but as far as aware, like a rubber tread on it, there's hardly any there. So you start to think, oh, maybe they're not necessarily set up for this. Again, they can still give that improvement and a lot of people feel like much more comfortable in them, which I can understand because the midsole material is so good and for various different, you know, brands as well. But it's not necessarily the best version of utilizing that shoe.

I really love that distinction you made before about, you know, looking at the percentage of improvement and that, that 4% title, really understanding that that's internal economy, but it doesn't actually change your efficiency. I think that's a really, really important point for people to remember with shoes. So to finish off with Paul, we'd love to ask, and this might be a difficult question to answer because everyone is so specific, but can you give the listener potentially three cues to walk away from that? If they're just going to generally try and prove themselves, what cues can they think about when they're going out for a run?

I think the first thing would be to actually create some self awareness. So actually start to ask the question, like, what movements am I making, where do I feel or where do I hold tension and what does it feel like I am doing? And particularly when you start to think is left and right doing the same thing. So start to actually place some, some awareness, place some thought into what left and right is doing, whether it is arms, torso, hips, legs, feet, like actually take stock. So I think that'd be the first one. The next one would be irrespective of the movement pattern, at least try and make it symmetrical. You know, like even the worst movement pattern done symmetrically is better than a really poor movement pattern done asymmetrically. You know, like at least load the body in the same manner. And the last one is think about, for me, it's like the timing of the movements as well. So if we're thinking about I feel heavy and I'm on the ground for a lot, like where am I actually spending most of my time? So again, it's a bit of an awareness cube. It's like start to think more, you know, levity, fighting gravity rather than actually trying to pull the ground or trying to fight with the ground. Start to actually think like, what am I trying to fight? Most often it is the gravity. So start to create some vertical movements. And obviously we don't want to go to the point where you're running on the spot. But like we're thinking about that's probably the main thing. Once we gain momentum or create momentum, the whole job then is, you know, like 70 to 80% is just fighting gravity. So we're trying to think about up off, up off, up off. So I think those three things are probably the first thing that they can start to take stock of.

That's a great way to finish. Paul, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. It's been jam packed. Explanations have been unreal. You're doing a lot of great work with some top athletes. Like we just mentioned before. You are spending some time in the U.S. you going to Oregon and spending some time at Nike headquarters looking at some of the top athletes, which is really exciting. But how can the everyday age group find you? Where can people look for you? I know you've got an online program and, and obviously your Instagram as well.

Yeah, yeah. So the online program actually gives you like a real background on the process of the session, the self awareness, you know, recording yourself and then all these like high level cues. I think at the moment it's probably like 10 separate videos of like top down and all these videos. So all that content is all there and that's@tbrunner.com and then Instagram if you're sort of wanting to have a look at just some of the thought process or concepts of what I do and some of the people I work with and also you know, like there's technical stuff there, like new way, old way and that sort of stuff is at the Balanced Runner. They're probably the most two active areas. There is a YouTube channel which I do have some tips and stuff up as well. So yeah, pretty easy to find there.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We've really appreciated it.

No worries. Thanks Jody. Thanks Joe. Thanks for having me. It's been really fun.

Awesome. And that's it for this episode to all our listeners, I guess. Dad, did you want to say something?

No, absolutely. I really loved. We went on a lot and it's very technical for the listener but I think there's some really good cues that people could really just try to think about and it will make you more efficient in your everyday running sessions. And even if you're a racer, there are so many good things you've covered. Paul. So thanks very much, mate. It's really appreciated.

No, really appreciate it. Thank you.

That's it for this episode. We'll see you on the next one.