Mathew Hayman [Special Interview]

Now, the only advice, the best bit of advice I've ever got for Paris Roubaix comes from Mark Walters, and it is always keep riding. So you're going to come across something today. There's going to be something go wrong and try and keep the morale high and just keep going, because there's always someone else who's had a puncture or had a bike change. So you can come back a lot in this race and keep believing, keep riding, and it's not over until you get to Velodrome.

Welcome to the Train Smarter, Race Faster podcast, brought to you by Tribello Coaching, where we are experts in helping triathletes and cyclists, the age groupers, race and train better to race better. We are absolutely pumped for today's episode because we had a special guest on today, someone that is now a legend in Australian cycling, and that is none other than Matt Hayman. We got to interview Matt Hayman today, and it was a really good interview. We were really pumped to speak with him.

Yeah, we were. Jordan, some of the stuff that you'll get to hear is gold. He really gave us an insight into how the Mitchelton Scott team are handling the coronavirus at the moment and the similarities to that for him when he prepared for Roubaix. Yeah. So he's got some really good insights in how to physically and mentally go about when things don't go well.

Yeah. And he provided some insight that was actually quite surprising that most people would be surprised at with how the pros are dealing with it. And we definitely enjoyed and appreciated that. His advice was similar to the rhetoric that we've been thinking as well and how to tackle this period. But he really gives some, like you said, gold in insight into how you should be thinking just to be able to get through this and stay mentally and physically healthy. So we'll let you guys hear it because it was great to talk to him about that stuff and to talk to him about Roubaix.

Yeah. And for those who might not know his background, it's pretty important that we get that across to you. Just to give you a little bit of a historical point of view of his cycling career, principally, he's only one of two Australians to have ever won Paris Roubaix, Stuart o' Grady and himself. He's completed the most Paris Roubaix.

He's got the record for the most.

Yeah. He's a Commonwealth Games gold medalist on the road. He actually got second place in the world under 23 time trial in 1996. So he can time trial he did race on the track. He preferred the road, obviously. He's been with three teams, Rabobank sky and Mitchelton Scott. He's been probably the most underrated rider in Australia's history, but Roubaix changed that. And had he not won Roubaix, he would have been one of those riders who was just thought of as a fantastic guy to have on the team. But it was awesome to see him win a race of that stature.

And his story has been retold many times. But basically he broke his arm six weeks out from Roubaix. He was told he would be off the bike. He then turned to indoor training to try and get himself right. He ended up getting on Zwift, which at the time wasn't very popular, but because he rode Zwift for six weeks, managed to get himself fit enough or keep himself fit enough to ride Roubaix, he turned up and he won. And it was just a miraculous victory and an absolutely incredible and inspiring story. And Swift kind of blew up after that, because everyone's going Swift was the difference. But, you know, as he kind of says in the podcast, we'll let you hear it. But he talks about how he went.

Through that period and look, you know, leaning on others for help during periods when, like, his handicap was a broken arm. Our handicap now is we're not allowed outside. The similarities are. You know, it's still a restriction to. And how do you deal with that? And through dealing with his coach, his coach, Matt, talks about openly saying he really helped him through this period, got him motivated, gave him structure and gave him confidence that his form was fantastic. And come race day, he raced the race of his career. And, yeah, it's. It's well worth a listen.

So on that note, if you personally do want some help in this period with some training, we train to hopefully race. Obviously, there's no races at the moment, but there will be races in the future. If you want some help with a training plan in this period, you can go to the link in our show, notes in the description, and we can help you out with a training plan. But without further ado, we are introducing the legend Matt Hayman on the line. All right, we're super excited to have the legendary Matthew Heyman on the line. Matt, thanks for joining us. And you are currently isolated at home in Belgium, is that correct?

Yeah, yep. We've been locked down just coming up to about three weeks here now. So two weeks by the end of the week, still allowed to go outside here, unlike some of the European Countries for short walks or trips around the local streets with the kids can still get out every now and again. And feeling pretty fortunate to have a backyard with three kids in the house.

Yeah, definitely. Are you allowed to ride the bike at the moment outdoors?

You are, but to be honest, I spent a lot of my time, you know, working with the team on the Zwift events and I've just kept it to indoors. I've gone for a couple of jogs outside. But it was a bit of a backlash, I think, when it first started. And like most countries, a few people saw it as an opportunity to get out and get some training done because they had been, you know, told to go home from work and there was quite a big bunches out. But that's definitely changed. It didn't take long for people to realise that that wasn't the idea to go for big long rides. And yeah, you can ride by yourself or in a group of two and I think a lot of people are respecting that now. Great.

And that's very similar to what the situation is here as well. Well, that leads to the first question. So you know, you're involved with Mitchelton Scott as the director of Sportif. How hands on are you with the guys at the moment?

Yeah, look, we've had a couple of meetings from the director side about what we were going to do and I guess the goalpost just kind of kept changing. We weren't sure what this was all going to entail and you know, discarding for people in Italy longer than three, four weeks ago, probably almost six weeks ago now. And yeah, you're going off, you know, reports and what we're seeing coming out of China and we're not sure how long, how long this is going to go on for. So yeah, originally the conversations were about, you know, moving goals and reorganizing a program and now, you know, with more and more races getting called off, it's more about the riders health and well being, you know, making sure that people are able to, you know, also train to stay emotionally stable in a difficult period. I mean, I know none of the guys are going to, you know, overestimate what this means compared with, you know, they're all happy to be inside in a country where people are dying out there and they're not going to, to put their cycling performances above the country's well being. But it's also like it is for anybody who's running a business. There's loss there. They've had goals taken away and their whole world has been Turned upside down and they're confined to their apartments. At the moment some of them are only being allowed out to go shopping.

Look, you've probably had that experience back when you actually won the Roubaix race where you were hindered through injury and now the guys are hindered through the virus to maintain their fitness. And they're probably at a great winter's training at altitude just like you probably did and came into this period where they're meant to be racing with probably great form. And what, what are you sort of saying? What are you doing? You've had to go through this to motivate yourself to prepare for Roubaix. What are you saying to the guys about look, there will be an end to this so you need to have good form and it's important. How are you motivating the guys?

Yeah, yeah, well, there's kind of twofold. It's, you know, look, we all know the kind of rules and you know, and definitely professional athletes, they like structure and they like to be goal orientated and at the moment the goals are being taken away. So let's just try and replace that with some structure. You know, making sure they're getting up in the morning and getting dressed as if it was a normal day. Some of these events on Zwift and keeping training at the moment it's more a mental side rather than trying to keep that top form because to try and keep that top form at the moment, you know, before we see any of these rules relaxed and before we go back into racing. I don't think racing is going to be sprung on anybody. There'll be a period where they'll be able to train. So and I think, you know, to start with a lot of people just didn't want to see the bike, which is the first reaction and something that I went through, there's this pain about it all being taken away and then, and then there's quite a roller coaster and it's really just, you know, kind of accept the bad days and don't be too hard on yourself if you're struggling for motivation and know that it will swing around and then, yeah, just use those good days. You know, obviously if there's too many bad days in a row then you've got to look at, look at the situation and you know, maybe reach out, reach out to your coach, reach out to your directors on the team and, and talk to them about what you're going through. But a day where you don't feel like doing anything, that happens, that happens a lot. It happens to everybody in all walks of life and don't beat yourself up too much if you can't finish the training session. But then I think there's a lot of athletes that are looking for some structure in their day and talking to their coaches about keeping the structure because it helps them be more level headed and, and keep morale up because essentially they're all bike riders and that's what you know, they identify with and that's what they want to be doing. So having some structure there. I saw a couple of days ago that one of the coaches had all his athletes on zwift at once and they were racing each other around and I'm sure that's not for the actual training benefit of racing each other. That's for, for the interaction with each other.

Yeah.

And just kind of keeping, keeping sane during this period. And, and yeah, of course they don't want to let themselves go totally. But they're professional athletes as well.

Are you, are you doing some group swift rides with the, with the boys?

Yeah, look, we've got some different ones. We've got, we reduced it from our original program. So now in the weekend we do one in the morning in Europe and which will get people in Australia and then another one on Sunday evening which is more for the South American and the American group of people. But yeah, there's some other guys inviting us along for difference. I mean I guess the guys are finding out the different aspects whether it's group workouts or just rides or. And guys are doing some meeting up and using the chat function on there to talk with each other. Even if they're in the same city, they haven't seen each other for two or three weeks. And as we know the sport can be pretty social as far as it's not just about riding the coffee shop stops and those kinds of things. And that's a big part of the sport and it's a big part of why people enjoy cycling so much. And when that's taken away, just sitting on the ergo isn't as much fun as you're normally doing that. So you can go out and ride with your mates on the weekend and enjoy that coffee.

Do a lot of the guys have individual coaches in the team?

We've got three main coaches on the team who cover the guys. Even if they do have individual coaches they generally fall under one of our main coaches who just keep an eye on that person. So even if they are. So everybody is covered by one of our in house coaches. And I think most of the guys use our own trainers. So we've been in touch with them as directors. They're normally the first contact for the riders and then as directors we're more. Well, we were more race day. But you know, we have to change that a little bit and be in touch with the riders, just how they're going. And you know, we've got guys that are 21 years old, you know, just, just sign their first professional contract right through to guys who were looking to retire in a few months and have three kids at home. So you really gotta, you know, look at all of those people differently and their personalities as well about what kind of support they need through a period like this.

Yeah, your role as a coach is really being tested now. You've got to actually when the main enjoyment factor, which is the race is taken away from them, you've got to kind of get them motivated a different way, really, don't you?

Yeah, I mean, and like I said, the goal, just not knowing where that goal is. I mean, I think we all work really well when you get that goal. And, and so there's the original kind of loss and almost grief I guess of having everything ripped away. But then also now the uncertainty which, which is not something that we deal with very well as, as humans of not knowing when that next one is. So I think, yeah, as the coaches just, you know, taking away some uncertainty and maybe replacing those goals with. They're not necessarily races, but what is our goal at the moment? What are we trying to achieve with our training? It might not be race fitness, it might not be this event, but what we're trying to achieve is a certain level of something to. Once we get to a certain point in time we can, we can capitalize on what we've done. And, and a lot of athletes have also used this as a period to, to address some, some weaknesses, whether that's study or core stability or you know, injuries, niggles that have been going on. And now you do have time to do that rehab properly left because you. Yeah, because he might have, you know, been doing 25 hour week training and you don't really want to do those ankle exercises or those little stretches and now you have that time to actually really hone down and maybe go back to basics on some of those niggles that might have been carrying as an athlete for years and never really worked on property.

You just touched on then about the fact that this is more of an uncertain period. We don't know exactly when this period is going to end. I mean Your story yourself is legendary. When you did break your arm and then came back from that to win root a. But I guess on that you knew that you were only out for four to six weeks with your arm. There was a certain period to come back, but you even touched on before. And I've heard you speak previously about the fact that you weren't motivated at the start. You know, you didn't want to see the bike. What actually changed for you? Was it having, having that certainty that you were going to get to back to a race eventually or what was it?

Yeah, no, don't be disillusioned there that I thought I was going to be back for rebate. That was never. So that whole period, that four weeks, I was uncertain the whole time. Yeah. So I think people might assume that I knew I was going to start Roubaix and I just knuckled down on a training program to train for Roubaix. Yes, you know, that was a goal, but there was no certainty I was going to make it. And, and like I said, that roller coaster of emotion happened. There were days when I, when I didn't touch the bike. There were days when I'd get through a session, but it was just on, you know, really just ticking it off and, and then I'd go, you know, vividly remember walking into the kitchen and talking to my wife and just asking her, what the hell am I doing? Why did I just do, you know, a double session with a whole bunch of, I don't know, threshold efforts. I don't even know if I'm going to be racing, you know, what am I, what am I doing? So, yeah, yeah, if that. I think, yeah, maybe people get the wrong idea that, that I was super focused and knew exactly what I was going to do and, and I knuckled down and the goal was always Rebe. That couldn't be further from the truth. I, I had the goal in my head. I wanted to stay fit. I'd done a lot of training and I didn't want to let it all go, but there was a lot of un. And some days I was super motivated and the motivation was just staying fit and doing, doing, you know, my sport as best I could. And other days it was, you know, what the hell am I doing? And it wasn't until I got closer and closer to Rebe that it started to kind of realize that I had a proper chance to do it. So, yeah, yeah, I think that's where I go back to. We're not sure. And, and some days, you Just have to be easy on yourself. And. And, you know, I definitely had a lot of contact with my coach during that period, Kevin Poulton, and, and he was the one that was, you know, after doing a few of those sessions, realized that I was, you know, holding my form and, and the training was going well. And he kept reiterating to me that, you know, and then he. His kind of attitude changed and he started to really focus on Roubaix. And I guess towards the end, he was the one that was the driving force there and giving me a lot of motivation to say that, you know, my form was, you know, I had held it through that whole period.

Yeah, that's great for our listeners, you know, all of the people in our coaching business to hear, you know, that you have vulnerability and you have weekdays, it's really fantastic because that's what exists. Exactly. They're going through right now. And they're just everyday cyclists, everyday triathletes, age groupers, who. Yeah, but absolutely love it.

But. But it's important to them, I guess, you know, and it doesn't matter, you know, it's very important to people, and they've put a lot of hard work into getting to this level and to have it all change. And I think, you know, if you can find that rhythm, and I don't want to be too negative, that every day I was. There were days that I really enjoyed riding. And there's a real sense of achievement, of getting through sessions and ticking them off, even if you're not sure of what the future is. And we know the health benefits and the mental health benefits of exercise. And I think when you are having those slumps, sometimes the best thing is to drag yourself onto the bike and you might unwillingly get on the bike and realize, you know, halfway through the session that a lot of that was just in your head and you actually got good form and you perform a really good session. So there is a real fine balance between wallowing in your own misery and actually just pushing yourself a little bit to start the session, you know, and I guess that's something that athletes will just, you know, have to grapple with and talk with a coach a lot about. And you do that all through your career, you know, when there's a moment to push and when's the moment to just say, well, you know, it's just not happening at the moment. But yeah, you do feel so much better once you've done a session. And even if you don't hit absolutely everything, you know, you just, you know, we Know, we know in a period like this, having some structure, doing your sessions, even if you're not hitting the numbers you want to, you're going to feel better, you're going to be a better person for it. I just encourage that. And yeah, and I think, you know, my wife and I, we've got three kids at home and we really try and make space for each other to exercise every day because we just know we're better parents when we, when we do that.

It's. It's so interesting. Exactly what you just said. I was just doing a session prior to the interview and I was listening to a podcast that you were doing with Matt Keenan, and I was doing, you know, just some intervals, some threshold intervals, and I was struggling a bit. And the more I was listening to you and Matt talking about your, your race, you know, sections in the race, it got me pedaling better and better and, and I got off the bike and I just felt so satisfied. And that feeling is important for, for all of the people to understand that that is an outcome of, of why we train, because we get that really endorphin rush from a successful event that we've completed in a very unsuccessful day. Probably.

Yeah, no, no. And, yeah, it's hard sometimes to do it. And, you know, and I'm lucky that my wife's motivated in that way and sometimes looks at me and just says, you know, just get on there. Just don't think about it, you know, get up and do it, because she knows I'll be a better person afterwards. And whether that's your partner, your wife or a coach or somebody, there are times when you do need to just give yourself a break and not be too hard on yourself. But the majority of the times, if you just kind of start the session, you find you work your way into it sometimes just don't think, just put the kid on and start moving because you start feeling better. And sometimes we even try it with the kids. It doesn't always work, but try and get them moving and often their mood will change.

Yeah, absolutely. So on that note, you say that you didn't have the clear expectations that you would make Roubaix. What were based on that? What were you generating expectations when you decided you were going to race after having so much time off the bike? I mean, you've performed well there. Previously you'd had two top 10 finishes, but going into the race, what were your genuine expectations of yourself.

Again? Kevin, my coach, was really excited about where my form was at. He wrote me an email the Night before the race and said, you should be confident where you're at and your numbers are really good. But, you know, as an athlete, I hadn't raced all these guys. I'd missed all the races that, you know, I thought you needed to do to. To be prepared and to be on top of your game.

So.

Lack of confidence. I mean, there was, you know, I was, you know, not going in with. Putting the pressure on myself that I had in other years to. To perform on that day. But the flip side was, you know, I was. I'm really passionate about that race and to have that kind of come together. The excitement for me was. Was new. It was like I was going back to that race as a young kid again and getting an opportunity I didn't think I had. So it was more about that excitement. Wow. Look, look, I'm actually here and I'm going to get a chance to ride which, which came through. And I think in the years previously, it had been a bit more here. It has to happen today. I've put so much effort, you know, this is the one day that I kind of have to. Have to, you know, really ride for myself and get a result. So, yeah, just probably more excitement and just being happy at being back in event. I, you know, really love and passionate about. And I've taken that pressure off myself of getting a result.

That's a really important point about releasing pressure. And you perform so much better. And you've sort of. You've shown that in that race. You had nothing to lose in that race. Whereas Sagan, Cancellara, Boonen, Vanmark Gilbert, they had to win. Their expectation from their team was they had to win. And you can go into the race going, well, Durbridge is our man. And, and yeah, you know, I'm, I'm here, but I'm. I'm still a chance, I suppose, without any expectation.

Yeah. And I mean, even. Even in other years, going in there and only writing, you know, potentially, I wasn't ever a canceller or a bone in where I had that expectation. I mean, but I was putting it on myself.

Yeah.

In other years, I was going in with, you know, I have to show something on this day and I, you know, I was being super critical of every mistake I made and it was just a different way of riding. I was just there because I loved to race and I had an opportunity that I thought had been taken away from me. So, yeah, it was a really liberating way to ride.

So could we say your coach did a great job? You had doubt about the endurance you had from just riding Zwift, but he managed to get your mindset, probably better to give you the confidence that you did have the numbers that said you could ride well. So how much does the mindset of a pro cyclist relate to the result, in your opinion?

Yeah, look, I mean, I think you'll find all professional athletes, although they. They might look like they're. They're 10 men and they're super strong on television or, you know, they have the normal doubts that anybody has and, you know, Yeah, I didn't go in there with the confidence of having results in the previous weeks, which. Which would be a normal way to go into Roubaix. And in some ways, you know, it was the 15 years of experience as well that. That told that, you know, I was able to use all that experience to position myself well and to know. But I'll admit too, that that's all the way through till the end of the race. The distance was something that I, you know, I couldn't believe how good I was feeling, but was worried that. That I hadn't done that work and I hadn't done what, you know, you thought was necessary to. To win that race, that you needed to ride Flanders 260k the week before, and I hadn't. So the whole way through the race, I was kind of, you know, a little bit hesitant about. About when. When the wheels were going to fall off or when it was all going to come crumbling down. And it never actually did.

In fact, maybe that was. You attacked the breakaway with. At the 80k mark, I think.

Yeah, well, that was maybe a little bit, A little bit silly. A little bit too. A little bit too excited there. I think it's still about 80k to go. Yeah, but no, I was very aware that, I mean, maybe that was also a point in the race where I was still just happy to be in the breakaway and to be out the front having a great day. And at that point, the win wasn't even really on the cards. But coming towards the final, you know, I still. In 2011, when I had another good ride there, I kind of opened up too early, got too excited, and through that experience, put in the same situation again, I remembered that, you know, I need to keep a lid on this. And even if I feel good, it is a long way. And knowing that I hadn't had the distance in my legs, really tried to keep everything under wraps. Just kind of waiting almost. Yeah. And it did, you know, that just, you know, making sure I didn't never went too deep and I obviously had that a little bit left in the tank in the final.

Yeah. And you've just talked about a point that I'd like to ask you about, which is having a completely different preparation as to a normal pro would have done Flanders the week before and Dawes, Vlaanderen and a whole lot of other races leading up to it. You really only did a couple of one day races. One in Spain, I think, and another event somewhere else. It was completely different buildup for you. Do you think the freshness is what was the standout thing?

Yeah, 100%. Not just the physical freshness, but also the mental freshness. So both of those had a big role to play. And I mean, I guess when you, when you break it down, there aren't that many opportunities in the classics. You know, there's E3 Gent, Webelgen, Flanders, Roubaix. So as a rider, you don't want to miss any of those. But you do, you do get to Roubaix and you are physically your. You know, this is something I've brought up with our performance team in the past. Like we see one or two riders who will gain physically in form and most of the guys will struggle through that period. And don't forget you're also up in Belgium reconing and riding these races for three and a half weeks. So there's a big mental pressure too of being in that. And often you're receiving a kicking most weeks and you've got to come back and do it again. And by the time you get to rebate and line up, you know, the writing's generally already on the wall. So I came in super fresh, hadn't been going through that, you know, five, six hours worth of stress, you know, constantly in the weeks leading up. You know, was new to the, the push and shove, but had the experience to know what it was all about. But yeah, came in fresh both mentally and physically.

And that brings to another question is because you had the injury, did you have a feeling of this has been taken away from me. I really do appreciate what I have an opportunity when I have it.

Yeah, no, that was, you know, just. And I think we'll see this when the guys get back out. And you know, you kind of get used to your lifestyle, get used to everything. And when somebody takes it away for a little while, you start to appreciate a lot more. And I think that we'll see that across the community with everything, not just with sport. Once bans and restrictions are lifted, people find a New lease on life. And I definitely have that, you know, where those guys were looking towards the end of their classics and, you know, kind of ticking that box and then resetting for whatever was coming in the year. I was just. Just getting started and felt like there were new opportunities. So, yeah, it's. It's not until it's taken away or until you can't do something. And I think that was one thing, you know, that. That my wife has helped me in the past, too, with. With training or motivation, you know, when you don't really don't want to do something or feel like you don't want to complete the training. And. And, you know, she often used to say to me, well, imagine if you were told you weren't allowed to train today, how you would you feel, you know, instead of saying you don't want to, if somebody tried to take it off you, how would you feel then? And it was only when you end up in that situation that you kind of appreciate what you do have.

Absolutely. And it turned into one of the most epic stories of Australian cycling. I think dad and I were talking about the fact that anytime we bring it up, we get goosebumps. And I'm sure you do, too. I mean, that backstage video of Green Edge is just one for the ages. It's one of the best videos on YouTube. I think we'll actually link it again in the show notes for anyone that wants to watch it again. It's really a where were you? Moment. And, dad, you have a bit of a where were you? Moment for where you were at that race, which would be very interesting for Matt to hear.

Look, I don't want to take away from the interview too much, but I did mention to Matt when I caught up with him at the Cycling Australia Awards, where was I? Moment. And fortunately, I happened to be out on the course that day and took a few photos of Matt. And the driver that we had was a policeman who is in charge of looking after the king. So he's a pretty talented driver, but, boy, can he drive fast. And we went probably two or three sections, ran, took a photo, ran back to the car, and he drove the car at a million miles an hour. Got us back to the velodrome about 5k before you got there. Boy, you guys ride fast. Because we were driving very fast to get from wherever we were. And in the velodrome, obviously having Tom Boonen come in and, you know, he's going for the record. And there's Sepp Vanmark, another Belgium, and Stannard And Bosenhagen and yourself and, you know, everybody's expecting Tom Boonen to win and you come around to the finish line and of course he doesn't and you win. And the crowd were a little bit silent, except for the three of us just jumping up and down, just hugging each other. And it was one of those days that I'll never, ever forget. So thanks, Matty, for providing that.

But yeah, yeah, it never fails to amaze me that, you know, a lot of this as an athlete, you're pretty self centered and you're pretty focused. And a lot of what I did was because I wanted to race and I wanted to be a rider and to turn pro. But since that victory, going back to Australia and having people talk about how you inspired people, I mean, it's been a pretty nice byproduct of something that, you know, that was never really my intention, but pretty moving. Every time you hear somebody or you get tagged in photos with people with, with injuries, on the home trainer, trying to try to come back and to inspire somebody, I mean, that's, you know, that's bigger. If I can change somebody's life through.

That victory, then definitely has been something that's been obvious to me. And Cadell and yourself have had two life changing experiences as an Australian in a cycling world that's full of champion Europeans. And, you know, there's probably three iconic Australians, there's probably a few more, but Phil, Anderson and Cadell and yourself have really forged a path in setting a standard. And you know, o' Grady and there's many others that have done a great job. But that really inspires a lot of Australians to get out and ride their bikes. And that's pretty much from our point of view and our listeners, it's really important that they get to hear some success from the pros. And it really rubs off on them.

No, well, and I think in this tough period and what we've touched on today, it's, you know, the benefits of riding, of exercising, and especially in this period where everybody's feeling it. And I think, you know, the stress levels on everybody is pretty high. The uncertainty is there, whether it's, you know, about your job, your family or your next event that, you know that we support each other. And obviously with a coaching group, that support has to be there, but then also just, you know, just making that effort to move and you do feel better afterwards. And I think for everybody's mental health is probably the first thing that we need to worry about. And then getting back to peak Fitness will come in time.

Yeah.

Your advice has been absolutely spot on. I didn't expect you to say that. The pros that you really, you know, taking care of their mental health and wellbeing first, which is obvious, that's what we should be doing. I was expecting, you know, you just say they're on a really strict program. So it's really valuable for all our listeners to hear that and just take the pressure off ourselves a bit and say, you don't have to be perfect. The motivation is going to be low. It's a hard period, but we can really get through it. So thanks very much for your time, Matt. We really appreciate you coming on. It's been unreal to hear from you and we love your story. A finishing question we really like our guest to answer is it doesn't have to be on the topic of what we've just spoken about, but what is the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months that you could pass on to others? It can be life, sport, family or anything you want.

Oh, biggest lesson I've learned in the last, I guess transitioning from being a writer to being a director. And you know, I. There's quite a lot more things involved in being a director than just sitting in the same car and talking through the tactics. And I guess, you know, I got to the end of the season, I evaluated it and I probably wanted to try and connect more with the guys instead of, you know, spending more time looking at files or looking at data, looking at race books, you know, just more connection with the athletes themselves. And I think that's probably more powerful than knowing the left hand corner or the gradient of a certain con.

Yeah, absolutely. I think especially in this period, that connection is going to be key. Thank you very much, Matt. We really appreciate your time. Thanks again for joining us.

I really appreciate it. Matt, it's been fantastic and looking forward to seeing how your new role as one of the head people at Mitchelton Scott goes and hopefully we get to see that sooner rather than later.

Okay, thanks guys. And yeah, to all your athletes. Stay safe, look after each other and I'm sure we'll be back out racing soon.

Unreal. Thanks, Matt. Cheers.