Norwegian & Olympic Gold Head Coach Arild Tveiten

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode, we absolutely geeked out because we got to speak to arguably the number one triathlon coach in the world at the moment, and that is Arild Varden from Norway. He is the head coach and sports director of the Norwegian Triathlon Federation. And the Norwegian triathletes have taken triathlon world by storm over the last two, three, four years, even longer. And he's been at the head of the triathlon group in Norway and the athletes for 10 plus years now, and he's really developed them into just the powerhouse of the sport. So we get to speak to him today. And it was an unbelievable chat and he weren't aware. At the Olympics In Tokyo in 2021, the Norwegian athlete Christian Blumenfeldt won gold. He's been coached by Arud for 11 years. He took the gold medal. And their fellow Norwegian athletes, Gustav Eden and Casper Stones came eighth and 11th, respectively, as well as Lottie Miller, who finished 24th as well in the game. So to have four athletes in the top 24, three in the top 11, just shows the strength of them. Plus, as we speak about in the actual episode, they were pretty disappointed with their 8th and 11th positions. They couldn't have been disappointed with the gold medal. So, yeah, we, we got as much information as we possibly could out of a rule today, didn't we, dad? And he was extremely generous with his time. And more importantly and more helpful for us, he was extremely generous with his answers. He could have held back, but he gave us an insight into the top coaching program in the world. Whereas a lot of coaches would keep their cards close to their chest.

Yeah, we're extremely grateful for him to give us an hour of his time. And it's one of the most impressive interviews we've done because he really opens up as to how a tiny country like Norway can unbelievably be the world leader in triathlon. And, you know, the story is it could be a movie. It's fantastic. It's a guy with a passion and wanting to see people improve. You know, he admits himself he was just an everyday triathlete and aspired to higher successes, but he saw that his gift was in coaching and he took, you know, a group of 14 to 16 year olds who weren't very Talented. And he's turned one of them into an Olympic champion after, you know, 10 year journey, which, you know, during the process would have been, you know, extremely long and arduous. But looking back now, after you've won the Olympic games gold medal, it's obviously the journey was worth it. And not only just to have one athlete, but to have two or three other athletes who are winning world championships and winning the best triathlons that are being available to the athletes in the last two years. And I think in Bermuda they got first, second and third with incredible result. And this is an example of attention to detail, trusting the process, you know, having the right program, having the right intensity to rest, being scientific, taking lactate threshold, you know, detailed in training and really, you know, being the leader in all aspects of training and racing and competing and preparation, you know, that they weren't that successful at Rio in 2016. They went away and did some more homework and look what happened, you know, four or actually five years later due to Covid. But it's just a great story and he's got an insight into which will, you know, you can associate as an everyday age grouper. You can understand that, you know, there are a lot of similarities between what you can do as a professional and what you can do as an age grouper. You know, mentally you are in charge of a lot of the decisions you make as an age group are just the same as a professional is. You can decide to train as hard or as easy as you like. So the choices are still there and there's no ceiling on how far you can go with yourself. It's your ability and willingness to actually do the program and put the effort in. So I took a lot out of that. And he also confirmed a lot of the theories that we like to continue to evolve in our coaching business because if you don't improve your coaching, you stand still and you get left behind. So, you know, we need to learn from others. And I think, you know, from my own personal coaching, I learn so much from other people and try to implement the good things into our program so our athletes get the best benefit from it. And he's another example of someone who's willing to share what's been successful for him. And I think it's some really good listening information.

Absolutely. So without further ado, we'll let you get stuck into this episode and soak up all the best information that we got to chat to Arud about. So here is Arul to Vodden. So Arud, we are so grateful to have you join us, a very big warm welcome to the Trivelo coaching podcast.

Thank you and it's the pleasure to be with you. I'm looking forward to this podcast and the conversation we will have.

Our very first question we like to ask our guest is, what does the sport of triathlon mean to you?

Wow. It has been a really big part of my life since I did my first triathlon when I was 16 in 1987. So I have quite a long background as an athlete and now as a coach and it's the lifestyle and is really important part of my life.

Of course, I mean, on that note, you had a long history as an athlete, but you've really developed a huge passion for coaching and you've now been at the top of the game with Norway and Team Norway for a long time now. We wanted to start by touching on the relationship you have with your athletes because it's quite unique in that you've been with these top athletes, Christian Bloemenfeld stuff, Eden and all the rest, for potentially 10 plus years. So firstly, how has the relationship developed with these athletes in terms of them trusting you, trusting your philosophies and trusting the process between you as a coach and them as an athlete?

Wow. It has been a really long journey. Of course I have to admit that when I started coaching Christian, I had the coaching background, but that was more or less coaching age group or and many of them doing ironman and longer distance stuff. So it was actually a process for me to say yes to that role because I knew that coaching young athletes, coaching athletes, going to be fast, to be good at sprint distance, that was a little bit different ball game than coaching age group or doing an ironman. But I jump into it and in many ways it's been a really good learning experience. And in the beginning you have your philosophy of how it works. But I have to say that maybe the first two or three years it was every, after each season we were thinking, oh, okay, are we pushing it too hard, too much, too early, will it stop, develop the next year and so on. But then after a few while, few years, you understood that, okay, we have a kind of a sustainable system of working and develop that. So you trust the process, you trust the coaching philosophy you have, and then you see the result now. And also I need to say that of course when you begin coaching, you are in many ways a kind of an instructor. You tell the athletes what to do. Christian was 16 years old, but as long as they develop, they're getting better, they Also show interest in in coaching or the training fields to be themselves. And after a while they are more kind of aspiring partner. And we have a dialogue and discussion about how the training should be. And now we are moving even more like they are much more independent than they were the first year. So it's always then kind of an evolution of the process. But the coaching philosophy is more or less the same. But of course it's developed through the years.

So we know you're extremely passionate about what you do. And it comes through in a lot of the stuff I've been listening to you on your journey. And do you find that you're reinventing yourself as you learn as a coach and seeing what works and understanding that maybe that's too much or that's not enough? How do you see that? Is it something that you're trying to progressively build an understanding of how the athlete responds to your coaching methods? And has that changed from 2010 to 2015 to 2021? Have you seen a change in your philosophy?

Yes. Okay. In many ways, the way we are working, the main principle that has been the same, but it's already been a developing through the years. And as I say that you learn the athletes more and better and the athletes get to know you, they get to know more about the training. And this is always a kind of evolution and improvement and progression all the time. And especially after the Rio Olympics, we step it up quite a lot with paying much more attention to intensity control. And it's not so much about the volume, it's more about how to balance the training, the intensity in the training. And we have been much more focused on that. And that has also been evolved further when we are going into getting closer to the Tokyo Games. Because then you need to take a look at what do you need to do to try to win an Olympic goal in Tokyo. And that in many ways changed a little bit of aspect of the training and how should work with athletes. And you need them. It's not about just me doing the job because we have other coaches there too, and sports scientist who is been really kind of a main architect for some of the work we have done the last two, three years.

Especially the philosophy that you talk about. Can you explain to our listeners what is your general philosophy as a coach of a triathlon country, as elite individuals? What is your basic philosophy? If you could summarize that for the listeners, it'd be fantastic.

Oh, it's of course not so easy to say it shortly, but in many ways we believe in a Volume based model. We strongly believe that triathlon is an aerobic endurance part. And that is the main principle we are working at. So. So the anaerobic impact and low volume, high intensity stuff is not the way we are working. It's also very polarized that we have a lot of low, really low intensity and a lot of the work. And the intensity part is very structured based on the intensity we think we need to do. But that also has been improved development through the years. Because if you would say in general we probably do much more what you call anaerobic threshold training than many other countries because we have seen that doing that in the system and also have the volume at high intensity. We see a big improvement in VO2 max. So when we see our atlas on a model like that have a VO2 max at between 85 to 90 millimeter, then we actually see that that is the model who also developed the VO2 Max. So that is the main principle. But of course when you're going into the details, it's much more what to say niants and then that is of course that's the general answer in many ways. Yeah.

So can you explain what you mean by you change the intensity control, especially after Rio, heading towards Tokyo. What did you change specifically?

One of the things, okay, in general when you're doing intensity control, when we start with young athletes, quite normal to use heart rate monitors and then you use the power meters. But then we had always using lactate monitoring and taking lactate testing. So what we actually did that we developed new testing regime. It was our sports scientist who made a totally new protocol. And with that we could more accurate determine the LT1 the aerobic threshold and also the LT2 anaerobic threshold to have much more detail in more accurate than we have done before. One of the thing is instead of, let's say you're doing an interval on the bike and instead of that, okay, you need to do three 50 to 360 racks or whatever it is. They can maybe start other than that. And then we take a lector test and okay, this is a little bit too high or too low. And then we adjust it according to how they are at that specific day. So the intensity control and how we do it is much more individually based on how the athletes are feeling exactly that day. So that is one of the big changes. And in many ways it's not as a really big improvement, but it's a little bit more into the details in how you you work with the athletes and they are maybe doing performing Every session a little bit more accurate than did before. And when you having volume 30 to 35 hours a week on the on a weekly basis, that is something that make a difference in the end, we.

Believe that's absolutely brilliant. And it goes straight into the topic that we really want to dive into and that is specific sessions. And so you've spoken about doing more specific or accurate training at that LT2 point. Christian has, you know, has been really getting into YouTube the last few years and he posts a lot of the sessions on YouTube, which is really kind of him. We get to see his sessions live and what he does and he puts up the data and it's great to look at. And a lot of the efforts might be described at, you know, 3 by 10 minutes on the bike at LT2. So we were wondering how much of these high intensity sessions at LT2 or maybe just under or just above or how many are way higher, you know where they're at.110 of LT2.

Yeah, of course that is a little bit based on the part of the year they are at and also of course that they are training for. So when Christian now is training for his ironman is not so much about LT2, but I would say that in general, in most of the year, in most of our training or interval session is around altitude and we try to develop the time frame we are working at the altitude intensity. So to be quite general, I would say that on the bike we are maybe 60 to 75 minutes at altitude. Which means if you want to do it at the really at altitude, what we define as altitude, you cannot work at a 4 millimolar because then you are going too high. On the run we are more or less 12, 14, 15K. That is something we see that work quite well as long as you stay at the right intensity. If we say what we do above altitude, I would say that that's very little. It's of course when you are preparing for the races, we do lit when we are in training block where we see that we need to work on develop the VO2 max of some of the athletes, then we go higher. But in general I would say nine out of ten interval session on the bike and run is at LT2.

Yeah, that's really interesting because when most people think of polarized, they think of the hard sessions much higher intensity and the easy sessions easy. So you'd assume that the hard sessions are, you know, much higher intensity and not at LT2. Yet you're saying you're spending all the time at LT2, it doesn't seem so polarized.

No, no, it's not so polarized in the way they normally describe polarized training. But when you see how we differ between the easy session, because when we are at easy session, we are below 1.0 in Lagback and at Delta 2 we are maybe around 2.5 and higher. So in that way we are polarized in that way that we are not doing anything between. But of course it's normal to say that if you polarize, you're doing very high intensity when you are doing intensity work. But for us it's mostly control intensity work at altitude. But as I say that it is some changes and one of the other things that has been changing through the years that we are instead of building up the training year around the normal plan, you have your base work and then you go into specific works and high end, intensive work. We are doing tests in the lab maybe every six or eight weeks. And if we see an athlete, even if it's off season, need to improve the VO2 max, then we will change his training to work on, develop the VO2 max at that time. And then we come to a new test six, eight weeks later. And then we see that, okay, now the VO2 max is the high level. But the difference between LT1 and LT2 is not where we want it to be. So then we need to adapt and change the training based on that. Again, that is also one of them big difference that we do compared to five years ago.

It's a huge advantage, isn't it, when you can actually be testing your lactate levels in the lab and in the training session and it's really, it's going the extra mile, isn't it? Was that something that changed prior to Rio and then post Rio when you realized that maybe you need a little bit more scientific evidence about where your training level should be and to prevent the athlete from pushing too hard. Because you know, the motivated athlete and you have many of them in your squad, you know, if, if you ask them to jump, you know, six meters, they'll do six meters. If you ask them to jump three meters, they'll do that. So, so it is hard to hold the motivated athlete back. And, and the lactate is a really good objective way where there's no, there's no subjectiveness that you know this is your lactate. Don't go above this. Do you think that was a big, a big shift from what you were doing prior to Rio to post Rio going into Tokyo?

Yeah, it's a big difference. And as you see that, even before Rio, we were taking a lot of lactate testing, but that was mostly a little bit on key session and a little bit in the lab. But it was always a little bit that, okay, if you're feeling really good that day, you can push a little bit harder. But now that is changed because they know the like that at the altitude and that one of the thing is interesting. Let's see, over three boys that they were all performing quite well at the Olympics. And of course they're helping the team in the training when I train together. But when they're doing intervals, yes, they can be there and push each other, each other. But it's more like they try to see I need to do this session at my intensity, at my threshold. And that sometimes you need to let your ego go away. That means that Christian in many sessions have been passed by both Casper and Gustav, because at that day, maybe Christian is a little bit tired, but you know that if he at his left at altitude level, he still have a good training session. But if you go with Jorus, it will not be a good session for him. And so they actually see that the session is a success whenever achieved it at the elected values that need to do, not by the pace they do or the power they do. And that is a big difference and very difficult for many athletes to understand and change.

And for the mental side that, you know, I want to keep up with Casper, I don't want to be left behind, you know, that would be hard for an athlete who's motivated. Why am I lactating so high and I need to hold back. That's not an easy thing for an.

Athlete, especially for the world champion.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's really tough. And that's one of the biggest learning experience you have. And of course you need to work closely with the athletes. The athletes need to understand all this work and why that is correct and right things to do for them. And it was an old man who said many years ago, a former professional cyclist, you need to find your training pathos with care. And it's not that everyone said that you need to have some good, better athletes to push yourself. But he said, if you choose a training group, you sure that you are the strongest one.

So are you taking lactate in every single session? I've seen the videos where they're taking lactate pricking the ear or behind the ear, or you've got the sports scientists there. Is that happening every hard session?

Yes. I will say that every Hard session and also in quite many of the LT1 sessions because at that point it's quite easy to maybe go up to 1.3, 1.4 in like that. But that also a point where we want to be quite accurate.

But how is that happening? If they're going for a long run in the hills or I know they run around the mountains in Norway. Is there someone following them and then. And taking their lactate.

We do it in both ways. When they are alone, they're maybe not doing too much testing, but they have their own lactate meter with them. Then I always use the fingertip because that's the easiest part. Um, when we are on training camp, we fall on them. Um, running interest, running intervals is quite okay. On the bike it could be a little bit more challenging because then we are driving the car and try to calculate when I finish with the, the 10 minutes intervals or whatever. So especially when we are in the month in Sierra Nevada. I think the, the, the local police are not so happy about this because. Because we are stopping in the middle of the road a lot of the time just to take the lactate values.

But that was my next question. Sorry dad. Last one on this lactate testing is it's obviously a game changer. You're saying how accessible do you think it is for the age grouper to get their own lactate test and do it themselves in sessions?

It's always a fine balance because doing a lot of testing is costs quite a lot of money. So you need to see how much you want to invest in it. But I see for myself that it's really good to do because then of course you know, let's say your altitude power values or the pace you should have on the track running intervals. But I always try to have one or two tests just to check if I'm within the right levels and if I'm not, I need to adjust the pace up and down or maybe adjust the training session. But of course I don't use it in the same ways that I do with my elite athletes. So it's more on to do a kind of an age group level. But if you are professional in what you do, a lot of age group are investing a lot of money in expensive equipment. In a new bike I would say that you can have, if you have all the right equipment that everything is correct. I think one of the biggest game changer is to use lactate and know how to use it. That's probably the main thing. You don't know how to use it. If it doesn't help you.

That's right. And one of the things that you could become very good at is understanding what your LT1 and your LT2 equivalent power number is. So. Or your running pace. And of course that can change with, with heat, with cold, with the way you're feeling, with the fatigue levels you're carrying. So you can become, you know, with minimal testing, I suppose get a comparison of what your running pace is, should be around these, you know, minutes per km or the power data, you know, that you know, is around 2.6. It could be 250 watts and above and that you get quite good at that. And are the athletes you're coaching understanding that you know, LT1 lactate number is similar to this pace and that obviously changes as you get fitter?

Yes, of course. And that is some of the thing you take in when you're working with age group that if you are working at, say you are back in Norway, the weather is quite constant, that you are training at the same places, then you can adapt the lactate values to power numbers and pace and that will be really good and accurate. But when you develop in your training that probably will change and then you need to take some new test again. But what we actually see is the biggest changes is that for Aurelia, let's say that you're going to altitude, then you cannot use the pace in the same way that you do at sea level. And the last years when you are training in the heat to try to prepare for races in the heat like the Tokyo race, the pace and the power values, the first day at the heat camp is very different from what it is at the sea level. And for us, for instance, this year before the Tokyo, when we are at the higher altitude and then you go directly to heat camp, of course the value is different than only constant parameters you use is the lactate, the power and the pace is changing.

Yes. And that is really making it complex, isn't it? And you really have to understand where you are in your training, what environment you're in and have almost a few sets of numbers. You know, this is my C level training with normal temperature. This is my altitude training. This is my heat training. And, and knowing that you will have to adapt to different stimulus to. To keep yourself from over training.

Yeah, no, no, no, it's. That is the big science. And there's always something you can learn more of. And we are getting more and more experience from year to year. And one thing we see that is very individually how for Instance how they react to an altitude camp, how many days they need to be acclimatized. We see a big difference. If an athlete, let's say Christian, he's been maybe 80 to 100 days a year at altitude since 2014. So he is at that so much. Yeah, yeah. So when he come to an altitude camp now, his time to be adapted and kind of the power values and like that levels is quite similar to what you do at sea level is quite. Just a few days.

Wow.

But some of the other athletes it could take maybe it's a big difference. The whole camp.

I really. I've got a few more questions on. On everything about lactate testing because it is so fascinating for us and this is just gold information, to be honest. We just nerd out about this information so much. It's what we love talking about. A quick question. The Inger Britzen family, the athletics family, they are famous for lactate testing as well. Is it just a coincidence that you're all Norwegian or is there some sort of crossover there in the Norwegian sports program? Because they're one of the few other coaching groups that. That do it as much as you?

Yeah, it's. I would say that it's not a coincidence because, okay, we are not working closely together, but we are a little bit a part of, I would not say the same program. But the coach to the Ingenbrissen brothers, they are their father. He has one mentor he's discussing training with that is an old professor from Norway called Jan Matson. And he was also my first mentor when I started working to go more scientific into the training, when we are starting doing altitude training. So if you see the main things about training, what they do compared to what we do, it's quite use of late admittance, it's quite high use of altitude training and it's some of the same principles in training. And even if they're racing for three and a half minutes, they're working in a way that they're working a lot with, develop the aerobic pathway and less on the VO2 max path. So that means that they will also be good in running 5k, 10k and so on. So they have a different approach to the 1500 meters than some of the other track and field athletes who are really fast and good at 800 and maybe are able to run a fast 1500 meter when they are in the shape of their life. So they have a some of the same approach. Even the racing time is three and a half minutes. And that is very interesting.

You can see that in Jakob Ingebritzen. Even in the Olympics, every single race he refused to sprint out at the start. He sits there back and keeps his lactate down and he runs an even pace the whole way. Um, yeah, in one of Christian's videos, he, he's doing 1k reps. It's a brick session. And he's doing some efforts on a bike and then 1k reps after and he's running 2:50 pace for most of them. And then he does one at 2:38 pace. Yeah, that's not his LT2 though, is it? 250? Because that's, that's just faster than he's 10k PB.

Yeah, at that kind of session, he's running high at the higher pace than his altitude, but his lactate level at the pace like that is maybe around four. So it's not like he's skyrocket high. I would say that if he is running 12 times 1000 at altitude intensity, he will maybe do it 3 or 5 per K. Okay, so that was.

My next question is because that session was about 6km of running a bit higher intensity. And then the session you described before, or the way you described it before was the bike is 60 minutes to 75 minutes at LT2 or potentially 14 to 15 kilometers. So at what point are they doing that kind of training where it's a 60 minute bike at LT2 or 14Ks of running at LT2. The base training, or is that.

Yeah, that's base training. But you need to understand that they do base training all year round. So we did that kind of session even in altitude in July and we do it a lot of it now. So that is also one of the things that, let's say you want to win an Olympic gold medal. Of course, the time, if you do the training right, have the volume and you're working all the parameters, this specific training, you need to be fast enough to develop the speed and the power and able on the bike to work on different power, all the sprint and everything. We see that if you're using four to five weeks of specific training on that, you are ready to race the highest level.

And in your opinion, would that be because you're continuing to keep your aerobic base going all year and so you can, you can jump for four to six weeks or five to seven weeks of specific training because you've kept that base endurance, which is very much aligned with our philosophy, which is really great to hear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

It's all year round and I Would say that even some of the session we did at heat camp in outside Tokyo. Then we are just two weeks before the Olympics when we do the interval session. Some of the first session we do that we started Delta 2 just to maintain that fitness and then you going closer to more race pace and race specific. And maybe then when we have the last session before going into the Games then you are just working on the race base. But maybe up to the week before you still do a little bit delta 2 not to develop the L2 but to maintain it.

And sorry to clarify, you really only switched to that high intensity last five to six weeks out from Tokyo. Is that what you said?

Yeah, I would say so. But then we of course we have an earlier period before the races. We start with the Yokohama races. So let's say that in the Olympic cyclists we have one period in late April, early May when we did the same. And then we went into a racing block of four weeks of racing. Then you go on altitude camp again and working on the basic stuff. And at the end of that you're switching to higher intensity and more race specific things for four, five weeks before really the Games.

So really you had almost a practice run prior to the Tokyo Olympics by doing that in April, a specific build go to do. I don't know, I think you. You guys did four races maybe in that block and then. And then that's kind of simulating the high intensity preparation that you were going to do for Tokyo. And you're getting a practice run at that. And then you go back and train it at altitude, come back out of there and go to Tokyo and revisit exactly the same formula. And it's. Is that an accurate version of what you are trying to do with your athletes?

Yes, you summarized it quite well. That's the way we do it. And that will of course be a little bit different build from year to year based on the season. One of the little change that before we went to the May racing with the Yokohama race, we were at altitude at Sierra Nevada. In Sierra Nevada, that higher altitude that is 2,300. So there we can do very little of high intensity stuff. So that. So this first part of the season we do more altitude things and a little bit less higher race specific things because of the altitude you are. But in the summer camp we are in the Pont Gourmet that 1800 meters and we do some of the intervals at 16, 1700 meters there is a little bit different there we can go at a little bit higher intensity. So we do A little bit more race specific in that pairing leading into the Olympics. And that I would say that in general, that's what we normally do from year to year.

If we were trying to uncover the secret of the Norwegian success. And, and that's, it's a real credit to you because you have developed this program yourself and it's taken you a long time, over 10 years to get these athletes to peak performance. And when you first started with these athletes, they were, I think I heard you say they were average athletes. And you have developed them into, you know, Christian has won the Olympic gold medal at Tokyo. That is the pinnacle of of triathlon. To win the gold medal at the Olympics and there are other world championship titles that are probably as important, but the Olympics is a real standout because it's only every four years. So do you pinch yourself looking back now over the journey and you know, do you have a sense of pride about how you've developed your coaching and you've brought these athletes who were, in your own words, they weren't, you know, outstanding athletes to begin with, but you've developed them over a journey to become the best in the world. Is that something you're really proud of?

Yes, I have to say that I'm proud of the process and what we started. But it's really important to understand that the last, typically the last year we have a lot of expert who is being taking the program further.

Because.

I think one of the key element to be a coach is that you always need to understand that you need to learn more and you need to develop as a coach. And what I started with would never be enough to win an Olympic gold medal. So I need to develop and then also come to a point that certain things that we have other coaches or sports scientists, we have better and higher knowledge. So they are much more important now than when we started alone. But the main thing is Norway is a little country. You have few athletes. You need to work with the athletes you have. So the thing that you are trusting the athletes you trust in the process, you are patient with them and can work on long term goals and just be able to do that. That is something you are proud of because that is kind of a different approach to other countries. Let's say your country, you have a lot of young athletes, you have a lot of races, you have a lot of super sprint races and fast formula races. And how you pick your athletes is based on how they perform at that kind of races. If you have put the Norwegian national team in Australia, I would say that 10 out of 12, we never ever get an Australian national team because they don't have that skills when they were young. That is something they develop later on.

It certainly needs a bit of patience, doesn't it, to put into an athlete? Identifying talent early is a benefit, of course, but you've proven that, you know, with the right guidance and patience, you can develop athletes. But you need. You need time, don't you? You need time to develop them.

Yeah, yeah, you need time. And I have said many times, and we mean that the biggest talent you need in triathlon is the talent to train and do the work. And if you have that and you are patient and you are willing to take your time, you will develop and come to a high, high level, as I said. Okay. Christian was quite early at a quite high level. But for instance, both Gustav and Casper, they were not very good in the beginning. They were really bad swimmers. So they were. They were not even in the main group. If they do a junior continental cup in Europe, they were almost dead last out of the water and they were fighting for 50 or 60 positions, and that is not so impressive. And there was Casper. He tried to qualify for the Youth Olympics. It was way off. But I see that today, if you see the results from the Youth Olympics compared to who's the best athletes today, it's totally changed. Because what you do when you are 16 or 17, it could be very different from when you are 20, 22 and VCR or at least have a. Maybe the biggest improvement they have is when they are 18 to 20, 21, they're a little bit late or developed than some other countries. So that means that when they are 16, 17, 18, they will probably not get into a national program many places in the world, but when they are 20, they are quite good.

It's interesting and I've heard you say many times, and we have this asked of us, coach, what do you think I can achieve if we talk about running pace? Do you think I can run under three hours for the marathon? Do you think I can push 300 watts as a bike rider? And I love your answer to those questions. Can you just tell our listeners what you think about those questions and how you would respond to an athlete who came to you and said, what do you think I'm capable of?

I think one other thing about our success, that we strongly believe that you can achieve everything you want if you're doing on the right guidance. In general, I would say that as a coach, you need to believe the athletes need to stay High targets. And you as an athlete coach, you need to see that, okay, this is possible, but it's everything. If you say that as an age group my main goal is to run under three hours in the marathon in Ireland. You need to break it down. Okay, what is the consequence? What do you need to do? But first I will think, oh yes, you can do it, I think you can do it. But what do you need to do to come to that point? Because if is no shortcuts on that. Because then you show that you have big endurance and you need to run at a decent pace at the end of a long race, of course you need to do the work. And I see that. I've been working with some age groupers too. And it's a lot of that age group who have really high ambition about themselves but that really don't understand what they actually need to do. And when you as a coach actually tell them to, they don't truly understand it or believe it. They always someone who believes on shortcuts.

The important part is that you tell them that you believe they can but you really have to follow it up with but you need to do this. This is what it's.

I think that is the main thing. I think that is no big limit for most people what they can achieve. Of course for me, at my age, When I was 30, 35, my goal was to run sub three hours in a marathon in Ironman. But when I'm 50, if I should do an Ironman again, I know that that is a little bit too high ambitious. So maybe I should go for 3:30, but that I know I can do.

Let's talk about Tokyo Olympics. Firstly, a big congratulations on the gold medal. We know how talented Christian is. We've spoken about your journey. You started working with him when he was 16. You had other athletes there. I do want to start with Christian and just say how did that feel for you as a coach watching him after this whole journey win that gold medal?

Oh, it was difficult to describe it of course. We were really, really happy, really happy for him and was a big relief too because we have been quite open on our ambitions and you know that it's a lot of things that can go wrong on the day. So most of us really happy and then it's a big relief. Yes, we did it because it could probably have a really, really good race and be number two or three because it was a tough race. But then we had a feeling that we didn't succeed. So that is the first impression. But when the time goes. Now I'm more like why didn't we were able to help Gustav and Kasper and do the right thing for them to be even higher placed than they did? So now I put much more attention to them and what should we maybe have done different or in other ways because they were really disappointed after the race even. Yeah, it was good to be 18 and 11.

It's a terrific answer. And rather than just basking in the glory of one victory as a true coach, you're always concerned about every athlete and you're asking yourself, and this is what we really push in our athletes is the post race analysis and understanding why Christian went so well and why the others were a little bit disappointed. Is there something post race that you could look back on the training, the preparation on the race day itself that you could do differently? Is that something you spend a lot of time since post Tokyo and how have you gone about that?

Yes, of course we have some discussion about that. It's always about at that level. It's on small details. We have been discussing that maybe some of training leading up the race could be a little bit more individual visualized. We think that the, the way they executed the race during the race was not in all, all, all parts perfect. They wasted little bit too much energy at part of the races where that shouldn't.

In which part?

But I, I think that for, for instance, I need to be a little bit different. I can say it, of course, but we saw that Kasp especially, he was really nervous about the race. So he was very anxious that he needed to be at the front all the time. That is of course good. But he was not so calm, especially on the bike as Christian was. Christian, you can see the way he races that he felt under total control. Kasper was wasting a little bit too much energy. So when he started to run he was still fresh, he was still feeling really, really good and he was following the elite athletes in the beginning. But at the end the fatigue.

Caught up to it, caught him.

So yeah.

And what about Gustav? Where do you think he could have improved?

If his swim has been a little bit faster, that will help a little bit on the bike. But his main thing that was not perfect was the, the first 5K on the run. He was losing quite a lot of position and was not feeling too good. The last 5K was probably, I, I can't remember the times bit now, but that was one of the fastest, the last 5k in the whole race.

What would you change for them next time? Because they're quite specific things to that race. So it doesn't seem like it's a common mistake for either of them.

No, it's not a common mistake. But one of the big learning experience that when we have three Atlas we know they are different. We know they are respond little bit different to different kind of training is that we need to be paying even more attention to the individualization of training program. So that is some of the improvement we need to. And we still looking at deeper into now because they all want to be the best in the world. So we of course need to try to do whatever we can to help all the athletes to come to a higher level. But it is also that they are different in age. And it's very difficult for Casper to understand that one of the reason that he is slower than Christian, that he's three years younger and he has three years of less training than Christian to win an Olympic medal. That is something that will be. Could be a difference.

Yeah. And that could be something that he aspires to and learns from this experience and is the better athlete because of it and won't be so aggressive on the bike and race differently. But certainly if you look at the way all of the athletes can competed, your philosophy is being about the team, the Norwegian team, training together as a group, as a unit and, and. And then to look back and say maybe we needed to be a little bit more individualized. It's probably a bit hard when you've got guys competing in training against each other. And even though it seems like Casper has more. Sorry. Christian has more maturity to not try and run the paces in some training sessions and sit back and the lactate threshold data tells him to, so he listens to that. It is hard when you're continually training with other people. There are very many good, positive reasons to do that and there are also some drawbacks with that because you, you tend to race each other in training. But I'm sure you've got control of that with your. With your, you know, your laboratory style approach to it. But that could be detrimental, you know, for looking backwards on. On the race. The team thing that you were so strong with could have been in fact one of the. One of the downfalls or the negatives.

Yes, that's absolutely true and that is some of the things that's been discussed because we know that our team model that the best athletes working together, training together under the same philosophy. It will still be a winning success formula the next year and. But then we need to balance that With a little bit more individualization within the Atlas in the team. But it's not that we can send athletes on different training camp and different coaches. You need to be in the same environment, the same training group. We have a little bit more coaches now, so we will change a little bit who will work with different athletes, but we will still be together. We will still living in Bergen with an awesome training camp.

So.

Yeah, so we know that's a key factor for success and that we need to keep.

And look, we need to remind the listeners that we're being very particular here because you had three athletes in the first 11 places and you know, from a small country that, you know, it is an outstanding performance and we're being a little bit too critical, I think, of for someone to come 1st, 4th and 11th, you know, 8th and 11th. Sorry, 1st, 8th and 11th. But you know, the results are disappointing for them. But you know, from, from the outsider, they're outstanding results.

And you obviously fix something because Gustav, not that anything really needs to be fixed like your point, dad, but Gustav just became world champion for the second time a couple of weeks ago. So, you know, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

But he said afterwards that he would probably be. Was in a little bit better shape after Olympics than during the Olympics. So that is also one of the things that we have looked into.

What the tape. I was just going to mention the tapering. I don't know. Sorry, George, you might have been saying the same thing. But, but the tapering we. We've sent many times to our own particular athletes that you need to find out what works best for you. And you can only do that by trial and error in other events. And the way you approach a B race or a C race, as we call it, compared to your A race and learning from how you performed in those B races when you might not have tapered so much. And then you come to the A race when you taper a lot because you want to be as fresh as possible to perform at your best. And for some people that actually doesn't work. And, and that is a thing you need to identify very early on what works specifically for you. Because you can't throw a blanket and say every athlete should taper this way.

No, I totally agree on that. And that is some of the art of coaching to try to find that. Okay? You as a coach try to help the athletes to find it. But it's always the athletes that need to try it out. They need to find out how they respond to the tapering process. And that is really individual. And we see it's different for all athletes. What I can say in general is that when we have been tapering too much, going too much down the volume, they have a tendency to underperform. But that is very general. But still we need to. The athletes need to learn and working with age grouper, it's also the same because they have a really different life and the time they can use in their training. And that will of course affect the tapering process, how much tapering, how long and so on. That's something you just need to learn yourself. But of course, with a good coach, you will all have the communication with the athletes and try to find the best solution. But it is a little bit. You need to try it out.

My last question on the Olympics is that when dad and I watched the race, we just said Christian is drinking a lot of water. And he probably drank more water. I really just want you to give us some insight into this. He drank more water on the run than anyone I've ever seen in a triathlon. And it seemed a bit excessive. At every station he was taking some and I know that it was hot and he had to acclimatize and athletes want to keep themselves cool. He vomited it all up over the finish line. You could see there was pictures of him chucking it. Why was he drinking so much? Was that a plan or he was just felt dehydrated or that the plan was to take that much water?

It was of course part of a plan. But Christian is probably one of the few athletes in the world who can gain weight during a competition. But the serious answer to that question is we have done a lot of sweat testing so we know the sweat rate. We knew how much of the fluid that need to replace replace. So it should not affect the performance in a negative way. So all the athletes knew how much they needed to drink and then knew how much the imbalance could be. Because there's no way you can drink so much. You need to, because I can say it now, but let's say for Christian, the sweat rate was 2.3 or 2.4 liter per hour. And when you break up the race on the bike, you have a little bit limited how many bottles you can bring with you. Of course you cannot drink on the swim. That means that you need to actually drink quite a lot on the run. And then he knew how much he needed to do. And instead of drinking quite a lot a few times, he took a little bit all the times and also used a Little bit for as a cooling.

That's great to hear. I should never have doubted you. I should have known it was an exact plan. We are conscious of time so we only have a couple of questions left. But you mentioned that you are coaching some age groupers as well. So what are you doing differently with your age groupers? What are some primary principles you're doing differently compared to the pros that can train 35 hours a week?

You need to pay much more attention to the daily life of the age group. So you need to balance and mix the plan compared to how the life is. That is the bigger difference. I think the main principles in training are more or less the same. But if you have 10 hours of time for training compared to 30, the intensity in distribution will be a little bit different. Of course it depends on the distance you do. But if you do less training you can go a little bit more on the interval side, a little bit more intensity and a little bit lower on the long easy things. But that's. Yeah, it's very individually based. But I have to say that the main coaching philosophy is the. The same is adapted to the overall volume and the overall life of the age groupers.

Well, rude. We want to thank you very much for your time. Before we let you go, dad, was there one other thing you wanted to ask? Anything?

Yeah, I, I did want to. Just one question. When we were talking about a lot of the, the actual training sessions, how flexible are you? If the athlete is really, if he's got a high intensity session coming up and, and it's really important part of the program in maybe a four week block and all of a sudden he's not feeling like he can hit the targets and everything medically says that he's okay, but he's just not feeling. How flexible are you with the sessions?

Oh, I would say that we are quite flexible. Very often we take down the volume or skip session. If we see that it's needed because it's all about being ready to do the really key sessions. And we see that in the high performance group they recover a little bit differently. Maybe they have some days where they're not able to sleep well enough or eat the thing they need to do, then we need to adapt it. But it's very often that they try to start a session and if it's not feeling okay, then we change it.

That's a great answer. Our final question that we ask our guest is what's a life lesson you've learned in the last 12 months that you'd like to pass on to others.

Wow. That is something I haven't thought of.

Hit you on the spot.

That was difficult to say a good answer on that. But if I say compared to what we did, you need to. Okay. To win Olympic gold medal, you need to go all in for it, and you need to be really passionate about it and you need to just trust the process and go for it.

That's a great answer. Thank you very much again for your time. We really appreciate it. We have hundreds more questions we could ask, but you've given us invaluable insight into one of the top triathlon programs in the world. So thank you very much.

R. Thank you very much.

You're welcome. You're welcome. It's nice meeting you and good luck with your coaching and your career. So. Okay, Take care.

Thank you very much.

Fantastic.

Sa.