Olympian and USA Triathlon Coach Ryan Bolton

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo coaching, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode, we got to speak to USA Triathlon coach and former pro triathlete Ryan Bolton. He was a US Olympian from Sydney, 2000 former Ironman champion, and now he coaches elite runners, including a whole group of elite runners from East Africa, as well as the winner of the Boston Marathon, caroline rotage in 2015, and pro triathletes like Ben Hoffman, Heather Jackson and Sam Long, a person we love to talk about on this podcast. But he's also an advisor for USA Triathlon and was really involved in the coaching side of things for the USA Triathlon Team with some elite performers there. And this episode, we got to really dive into his coaching philosophies and really ask some great questions on how he handles both pro triathletes and age group triathletes. But before we get into the episode, let's just talk a little bit about his journey as a triathlete himself. Dad. He's really an impressive person, both as an athlete and a coach.

What a great person to have on the podcast. And I'm really excited for the listeners to. You know, not many people may have heard of Ryan before, but he's got a very impressive resume, both as a. As an athlete himself and as a coach. And I think people underestimated him throughout his whole career and underestimate him as a coach as well, because he's pretty much done it all. He grew up, you know, not in a really big city in America, but, you know, a bit in the outback. And he was a really quality college swimmer and an exceptional runner, you know, so much so that he could run a 29 minute 10k in a triathlon as a junior. So, you know, the 28 minute 10k fresh was probably, you know, some of the ability that he had as a runner. So he was outstanding runner and level in America. He was right at the top as an individual runner and, you know, could possibly have gone on as a runner alone without even going into triathlon. But he managed to get through uni and his college days and his major was exercise physiology and a bit of nutrition. So he's really got a great background to understand how training and coaching should really be managed. And so he's, you know, he's done it all as an athlete and he went to the world titles in triathlon with very minimal training, ended up coming second as a junior at the world titles, qualified for the U.S. olympic team for the very first triathlon in Olympic Games in Sydney, Australia. And you know, that was one of the highlights of his career. He competed at a high level, obviously, and then he put his hand to endurance triathlon and became successful winning 70.3s and Ironmans that he entered into, all at the same time helping others in their journey as athletes and really developed himself as a really top line coach. And as you mentioned, he's had African athletes who, you know, in themselves are quality athletes, but he was able to get them to actually, you know, be more successful through his coaching philosophies. And he's coaching some of the best triathletes in the world at the moment. And you know, to have a winner of the Boston Marathon, it's like the pinnacle of marathons in the world. You know, it's like the Kona of triathlon. To have coached an athlete to win that event is, is, you know, pretty special. So he knows his stuff. We can learn a lot from him. And like, like we say in everything, you know, if you're not learning something today, you're getting left behind. And it's a really good opportunity for all our listeners out there to, to you really take note of the things that he's philosophies and they're very aligned with ours and it's really great to have someone like minded on the show and I'm really wrapped to have him part of our, our podcast.

It was an absolute pleasure to talk to him. He was so generous with his time and we were geeking out about asking him as many questions as possible because we just want to hear from the top coaches in the world and he's one of them. So without further ado, here is the episode with Ryan Bolton. Ryan, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. Firstly, welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thanks. Great to be here, guys.

Our first question, we like to ask, we like all our to ask all our guests. This is depending on the sport, but for you, what does the sport of triathlon mean to you?

Oh man, that seems like an incredibly simple question. It's actually very, very complicated. I actually ask myself that sometimes because it's been a part of my life from maybe before even we knew what a triathlon was. Uh, because as a kid I was, you know, always swimming, biking and running. It's hard for me honestly to separate life out from the world of Triathlon. So I, I would say, what is it? I, I, it's kind of, it's, it's one of my main centers of my life. It's a big part of it. You know, a lot of my, my social circles, you know, my friends are triathletes, you know, old and new. And then obviously, you know, like, you know, working intensively in it. You know, my professional group is too. So maybe it's not incredibly healthy, but I would say it's a pretty big center of my world almost. And so, I mean, that's, that's what it means to me. I mean, it's everything too. It's, you know, it's very much, I mean, and I think this is a great thing about this sport, is with three different sports, is it's a lifestyle. And, you know, to this day, I mean, I don't race anymore. You know, I used to race and everything, but I still rarely go a day without swimming, biking, or running. And it's just incredibly important to me. And I remember when, when I was a professional, people would say, what will you do when you retire? You know, will you, will you get lazy? And I was like, no, probably do exactly what I do now, maybe just a little bit less. And over the years, it's definitely become significantly less, but it's still a big part of who I am.

That's, that's brilliant. And I imagine you still get out there and test yourself and push yourself along to keep your health and fitness. Not such as competitor trying to win things, but just to stay healthy and fit. That would probably be a major part of, of keeping your sanity as well, I imagine.

No, for sure, that's exactly it. Sanity. Like, I just love being outside. I love being on a bike, I love being in a swimming pool, all of that. And also, you know, I do a lot of training with athletes and who are still athletes, so I don't know when the day is coming, but it's probably coming very soon, where I just can't hold wheels anymore. But I still, for the most part, can hold someone's will, definitely. But it gets harder every year.

And as the listeners may or may not know, you do coach some of the most talented athletes in the world at the moment. And to go on a training ride with a Ben Hoffman or Sam Long might be a little bit intimidating for the everyday age grouper, but you to be able to hold their wheel is still pretty incredible. You're still in your 40s?

Um, yeah, I'm 48 now. Yeah. Yeah. And those Guys, it's, it's not easy. And I think they play nice because if they wanted to drop me, they could.

So look, moving on from that answer, you, as the listeners will have heard, have had had a pretty stellar career. And, you know, you started off your days as a bit of a swimmer and a pretty renowned runner in your college days. And you in fact had a college scholarship to be a runner, cross country runner with some really good talent as a swimmer. You then moved on to be a triathlete for a period and went to the Olympics. And along that journey, I got second at the world titles as a junior in Manchester. And you then proceeded to go into 70.3s and Ironmans and be very successful winning Ironman races there. And it's really evident to me from reading and learning about your history that you have absolutely surrounded yourself with the right people, the people who have guided you along that journey. And obviously you're intelligent enough to experiment on yourself, which is what we all do to see what works and what doesn't work. But just give us a little bit of a guideline from your college days. Who influenced you at college as a swimmer, as. As a runner, then as a triathlete? Who are some of the major people that really influenced you along that journey?

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say that I got really, really lucky at an early age, when I was young, by being surrounded by great coaches. And at the time, you don't realize that, you just think that this is normal. But I would say that both my high school swimming and running coaches were really phenomenal people. The people who ultimately got me into running initially were just magical, special people. And the way that they looked at the sport even, which kind of speaks to what we talked about before. Like, to them, you know, it was about a lifestyle. And sure, it was competitive too, and they could sense that I was highly competitive, so they were willing to push me in that regard. But it was. And so it was very much that, you know, being surrounded. And then I would say it almost taught me then to like what you said. And I think you hit it spot on to, you know, surround myself with pretty great people. So in college I had a fantastic coach and then for running, who taught me a lot. And I also actually had some other running mentors during that period. And then when I started racing triathlon, I, I guess I recognized, well, I recognized very early that I needed a triathlon coach. But I ended up right away working with Joe Friel, who a lot of people know, Joe, you Guys should get him on the show sometime. He's a fascinating guy, but I got really. Unless he's maybe been on. But I, you know, I really got lucky in connecting with him and I learned so much from him as, as an athlete and not only, you know, physiology and, you know, proper training and everything, but once again, with him, it was more of like, how to be a good person, you know, in the world of the sport and, you know, how to work with people that way, how to work with athletes. He didn't have an ego. He's very. A very modest guy, which I really appreciated about him. But it was like, you know, having. Having mentors like that as both an athlete and at the time, I didn't see them as mentors for me to be a coach. But now, like, it's really clear that I was kind of being. Not formally, but definitely trained to be a coach as well at some point.

The personality and characteristics of the people that it helped you. The one theme, and I've just recognized this in so many people that we've talked to, is their love and passion for what they do. And it absolutely comes through with them. It wouldn't matter if they were being paid or not. They just love their sport and love doing it and love helping other people. And that seems to be a game changer, I think, for, for the everyday athlete, the age grouper out there that, you know, if you've got a love and passion for something, you will actually do okay at it. It's the minute you don't enjoy what you're doing is the time to question what you're doing. How would you see that? As a. As a sentence?

Yeah, definitely. I. I mean, once again, it's a neat thing about triathlon is I think, you know, people choose to do this sport because it's a challenge, because it's hard, you know, a lot of people. But. But there's, I think, a lot of things in life. Nothing in life that's really rewarding and really beautiful isn't challenging. And I think that's what's so special about this sport is it's a challenge. I mean, that's what attracts people to it. And, you know, both, like I said, the community and creating a community with it, but also just the training and the bonding that comes with that. It's interesting that you say that because every once in a while, and I'm sure you guys see this is, you know, athletes, they get into the sport, they get more and more serious, and sometimes I'll have to Grab an athlete and like, take them. Take, take a step back, you know, and say, hey, you know, because they're starting to get really, you know, tense about something or really nervous about something. I'm like, hey, you do this because this is something you enjoy. This is something fun. Sure, it's competition and everything, but it's an important, you know, this is your hobby and your hobby shouldn't be stressful. And it's a good reminder to people because then people do normally, you know, take a step back. I'll even do that with workouts that, you know, sometimes if a person's doing, you know, really obsessing about workouts and numbers, I'll be like, okay, for a day or for a week, you know, we're just going to go out. I just want you to go run on trails. I don't want you to worry about pace, I don't want you to worry about heart rate. I just want you to get out there and remember why you enjoy this and love this. And I mean, I've done that with age group athletes and professionals because, I mean, pros go through exactly the same emotions.

So based on some of the great people you've had around you, including, like you said, Joe Friel, the guru of triathlon coaching, how has that more specifically influenced your coaching philosophy now? Where do you see that coming through in yourself as a coach now?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of components to that. A big part is obviously just the philosophy, you know, behind coaching, like what works, what doesn't work so you can talk about the technical side of things and, you know, periodization and volume and intensity and timing on all of that. I think the other piece that noted was just Joe's style of like, he's very, he's very athlete centric, I guess you could say. You know, he was never like trying to shine the light on himself. He was. And I guess another thing that I really liked about him that I really appreciate as a coach, I mean, it's one thing being with you guys today is just collaborating and learning from other people. And Joe always had an open mind and was always willing to both share information, but also take in information and maybe change his perspective based on. And he's still that way today. I mean, he's in his mid-70s and same thing. He's like a kid when it comes to digesting information and wanting to digest information and also changing his views. And I think that was one of the big things for me is learning to constantly grow as a coach, constantly Learn and not be afraid to, you know, change based on new science or. Or just new observations and everything like that. Joe, one thing that I really appreciate about him and some of my athletes tell me this about me, and it's not intentional, but I remember he rarely got really excited when you were racing. You know what I mean? You could be having the best day of your ice, and he'd be like. Or, you know, you'd see him on the course and he'd be like, good job, good work. You know, there was one race in my life where I actually saw him get excited, and it was actually our Olympic trials, and I was actually. I was having a horrible race, and I think he thought I was out of it. And on, like, maybe the last loop of the run, I think he saw, oh, you're going to make the Olympic team. And it was funny. I came around the corner and he was jumping up and down, and I was like, wow, Joe, real excited. I was like, I must be doing something really big here, because time that I've seen him excited, but it was funny, actually, just at 70.3 worlds. Sam Long, we were talking after the race, and he was like, man, he was like, you're out on the course. And he was like, and, you know, I'm having an amazing race, and you're just, like, constantly just feeding me information. He was like, it's never like, you know, show of excitement or never, you know, a show of like, oh, my gosh, you know, you're always like, okay, this is where you are. This is what you need to do. You know, that type of stuff. And I was like, okay, maybe that's a good lesson that maybe I should. I should show a little more emotion on the race course on occasion to my athletes, as opposed to just being a coach, you know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you've clearly taken that from Joe. That's probably one. One thing you might not have realized you've taken already. There are a lot of technical aspects to coaching, like you said, which is, you know, what philosophy do you abide by? Kind of periodization. What principles do you abide by? I know this is a tough question to summarize, but how would you summarize your coaching philosophy and your principles?

Yeah, well, you know, what we've talked about thus far is like, having mentors. And I feel like over the years, I've taken bits and pieces of all the people that I've worked with and from coaches and coaches that I've read and listened to speak and also worked with as well, as, believe it or not, athletes that I've worked with, you know. And I would say, you know, putting all of that together, you know, it kind of like forms, you know, coach and a coach's philosophy. I would say. Like I said, I, you know, I've worked a lot with East African runners, as you guys may know. And I honestly have learned a lot from them because they're incredibly intuitive athletes. You know, they really listen to themselves, they really listen to their bodies. And I've learned to really trust what they say. But anyway, I mean, I'll go back to Arthur Lydiard, who, you guys probably know some of his philosophies in running. I really subscribe to that when I was in college, as did a couple coaches that I worked with, were kind of disciples of Lydiard. And then translating that into the world of triathlon. Like I said, you know, working with Joe. And I would say one of the key principles for sure of all that we already noted it is periodization. I'm really into periodizing schedules with athletes both on a micro cycle, like on a weekly basis, but also monthly, yearly and multiple years. When start working with an athlete who's relatively young, who has big ambitions, it's definitely, I'm looking five years down the line as opposed to what is best for this year. And which is important I think with young athletes. Cause they want everything right now, you know, they want everything overnight. And in endurance sports that's not the way things work. It takes a lot of time, you know, to build the engine in endurance sports, no matter how much talent you have. And I think that's actually just a little segue off of that with, with age group athletes or athletes that are getting in the sport, you know, a lot of people, and I mean, you guys probably see this and you're like, hey, I want to do an Ironman in three months. You know, can you get me ready? And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, have you done a triathlon before? Nope. You know, never swam before actually. But you know, I'd love to do this Ironman and I just registered. So I think that, you know, working with like those age groupers and like you know, telling them that hey, this is a really long term process and you're going to, but you know, sort of a cliche to say, but the journey is really a lot about what it's, it's about and enjoying that process and understanding that, you know, what you see in year one, year two, year three, that really, you know, the potential for like booking long term and doing that with a, you know, kind of a specific, like said, periodized plan. And it's interesting because I don't. I wouldn't say. I guess another thing aside, periodization is. I don't. I'm not like a fundamentalist, if that makes sense. Like, you know, some coaching and coaching philosophies. There's like, you know, it is this way and this is the only way, and it has to be 100% this way. And I don't see it that way. I think I treat athletes independently. I mean, I definitely have core principles. Periodization. I really believe in putting in big aerobic volume cycles and then adding specificity for whatever race it's doing. As you get closer to specific races, I would say that's a key thing. But that looks differently for different athletes depending upon what they thrive on, what their weaknesses are, what their strengths are and where they are developmentally. So it changes a younger athlete, um, like you can, you know, you can really focus on strength and base and kind of like building that engine, whereas older athletes, you can really focus on the fine tuning and adding turbos to, you know, to those athletes and everything. So, you know, I think that's a big part of it too, is that we're all. We're all really individual. And like I said, you know, I would say, like, my top Pro athletes do 85% of the stuff that's pretty darn similar, but each of them has that like 15% or so that's, you know, gets tweaked based on. Based on them and their needs, if that makes sense.

So.

And the same thing is true. And I get asked this a lot, and you guys deal with a lot of age group athletes too, is, you know, sometimes I'll work with an age group athlete and they'll say, you know, oh, there's no way I could do, you know, what your pros do. And I'm like, well, it's actually exactly the same philosophy. You know what I mean? Volume might be different, intensity might be different. Certainly paces and power numbers are different, but really philosophically, it's a very similar thing. And I think that's another really cool thing about this sport.

Can you break down what the last 15% might be that actually changes what kind of things are slightly different?

Yeah, totally. And I would say that even varies within individual, you know, it depends on the time of the year or the season or whatever. What I would say it's what they're working on, what we see as their greatest weaknesses. In that moment, you know, you know, going into a big race, if, if I see or you know, we're feeling like someone's swim is just a little bit off where it needs to be, then you kind of put a little extra emphasis in that. But also, I would say, I would say a lot of that stuff comes as you get closer to races because like you said, adding in the specificity of what they need. I have some athletes who race better on fatigue and you learn that, you know, like how, how tapered, how rested do they need to be and, and, and others who need a significant amount of rest, you know, to feel sharp for a race. And that definitely varies a lot from athlete to athlete. And that's the only way to learn that is to work with them for a while and talk with them and to understand and to kind of mess with, you know, what does that last week or two weeks of training and say a big race look like? So, yeah, it's kind of, I would say a lot of it is, that is, you know, getting that specific kind of high end tweaking of, you know, pacing and, or you know, rest work.

The historical data that you, you gather from each athlete is incredibly valuable, isn't it? And that's the beauty of having an A race for the season or the, for the, for the year or the, but the two or three year down the track sort of goal that you're achieving and, and gathering all the events that you've done as a B race or a C race where you've trained through them and, and seeing how you respond to different types of tapering where you train straight through into a race. You get so much information that, that really dictates your end day where it comes to say you're going to Kona or to the, you know, the US Trials or whatever. Your main thing is you just have to listen and look at the data that you've got to understand what suits you best. And, and we get so many of our guys thinking that, you know, they've read the philosophy on this is what you do for taper recovery. And, and this should work for me. And they end up having a horrible experience.

That's right. I always, it's funny, that's my, I call it like the magazine conundrum is, you know, I'll get an email from an athlete and they'll be like, hey, I just read in whatever magazine that this is an amazing, amazing workout. You know, and they're like, what do you think? And I'm like, well that is an amazing workout, actually, but at a very specific time. You know what I mean? Not this week, not tomorrow for you. And you're right that like people, I think, you know, a big piece of like what you just noted is there is so much individuality that it's hard to write, you know, like, or like you said, it's hard to create like a bulk. Hey, this is what's going to specifically, you know, work from everyone based on what data sets, you know, and like, because I mean there is data and data is incredibly valuable. But I also think in this day and age, and I guess this kind of gets back onto like coaching philosophy that I have is like, I think it's so easy for us as coaches and also athletes in this day and age to get, oh, sucked into all the data too much, you know, and rely on it like it's a crutch. I think for some people, you know, they get obsessed with the numbers and obsessed with, you know, if you're in. In training peaks, you know, their chronic training loads or their acute training loads or, or you know, where is this? And you know, and their power numbers and all of that stuff. And I think it takes away and it's a big piece is as a coach to teach athletes how to not forget what I call like the artistic side of racing. Like actually understanding your body, you know, how does your body feel, how is it responding right now, you know, and, and like listening to that and learning to listen to that. I think, you know, the way our minds work and especially triathletes minds, a lot of times, like I said, it's a lot easier just tell a person, hit this number, you know, all day long, go. You know, and they're like, okay, that made sense to me. It's very simple, you know, but then they get three hours into that number and they're like, okay, this doesn't feel right anymore. Or the opposite. This feels way too easy, easy. And then they don't artistically listen to their own bodies. And I think as coaches, like I said, that's a huge responsibility because I meet way too many coaches and way too many athletes that anymore are relying on the data. The data is incredibly powerful and incredibly useful and a really great thing to use. But it can also become a bit of a crutch and also just a talking topic. People love to talk numbers. I can talk them all day long with the best of them because, I mean, I love that stuff too. But I also understand it's just a piece of the piece puzzle, you know.

It'S incredibly important to have data. And we, we are really pushing our athletes when they come to us because they've come to us generally as an age grouper with no information about their performance. And so we're trying to teach them right from the outset that it, it really is to understand the data that you, that you actually can produce on any given swim, bike and run session. And, and once we've taught them that, then the next hardest part is relating their feelings to the data. And we are big believers and it's a two pronged attack that you've got your subjective feelings and you've got your objective data and to dominate one over the other is a huge mistake. And they need to go together and they need to be always together because on any given day you can feel absolutely horrible or unbelievably fantastic and then you've still got to use your parameters to stay within there so that you don't actually go too hard. And that's what data helps with, is not going too hard. And then if you're feeling average, you know, not going too easy. So where do you see that aspect of your coaching and how important do you feel that the actual subjective feelings and the objective data is and how do you implement that into your coaching philosophy?

Yeah, that's great. I would say you just put it in a couple really good ways of. It's important. Like I try to get, I want as much objective information as I can get from athletes and you guys probably get this. Do you want me to get the power meter? It's like yes or hey, I was wondering if I should wear my heart rate monitor for this, this workout. You know, should I? And I'm always like, well if you're willing to, yeah, because it's just one more piece of data that we're going to get. You know, even if it's a, say a pace oriented workout where we're shooting for a specific race, I'm like, still wear your heart rate monitor. It's giving me some useful information. And I think, but like what you said is like, I think making sure that. And you get all different personality types and you know, you have your types that like, you know, want to completely rely on the data and then you want your other ones. You're like artistic athletes who are like, ah, forget about the data. I just want to go out there and go on how I feel. And I think creating the balance. And this is a question I get a lot where people are like, what's the difference between your best Pros and a decent age grouper and I would say the pros, believe it or not are, are some of the best subjective racers, you know that I know. Like they're really, really, really in tune with their body. They know exactly where that limit is and they know exactly how to get right to that level and then hold it there, you know, without taking a step over or without but you know, while also not taking a step under. And that's such, it's a learned thing. It takes a long time to like, I mean some people, you know, it's kind of a talent I guess you could say. But it's also a learned thing. But I would say with, with like age group athletes is kind of like, I think you put it really well is try to bring them up to speed on the data and how to use that and how it can be useful and what we can learn from that and how they can use that. But, and then kind of like almost implementing subjective, you know, after that and saying hey we need to learn this and you know, you need to learn what this feels. And I think that's, you know, let's use Ironman racing as an example. You know, with nutrition we have best laid nutrition plans is as you guys know in the middle of a race sometimes those plans go out the window or, or something happens and you have to, you have to lay off. And that's where like I think it's important to teach athletes or for athletes to learn, you know. Okay, well you know, I know that I'm supposed to be taking in X amount of calories per hour. My stomach is really rejecting that right now. And I've had this, I'm sure you guys have too. But coach, you told me that I was supposed to be taking in this many calories an hour. So I just kept on taking them in and I just kept on puking them up and I'm like ok, hey, you know, that's where I want you to put on your like your athlete, you know, hat and be like okay, maybe this isn't a great idea. You know, maybe you should, you know, maybe you should lay off the calories a little bit. You know, maybe cut it with some water or something like that. But you know, same thing as with you know, the numbers and you know that like you said that the feeling with the numbers and getting subjective. I often going into a race like I'll talk numbers and I'm sure you guys too with athletes, you know, these are goal numbers that we like to hit but this is a Saying that I often say to them is, I was like, use these as a guide, but not gospel. You know, like, this isn't, like, laid in stone. Like, I was like, you know, these are what I think. And you think, you know, we can accomplish. But just remember, like, you know, I want you to use this as a guide, you know, but in either direction, if it feels a little bit, you know, too hard, maybe back off a bit. A bit. And if it feels a little bit too easy, you know, don't be afraid to push, especially, you know, later in the race and stuff. But yeah, I always tell people, use as guide as a guide, not gospel.

And looking. Getting your athlete to take responsibility for their. For their end result is. Is such a hard thing sometimes because we're not robots. We, you know, we're not. We. We can't just run, ride, or swim to a number. We have feelings and. And we have to be determining how we feel. We might come to the day and be on top of the world and it's too easy and we get to the end of the race and I could have gone harder. That feeling. It's very rare, by the way, that anybody does say that at the end of an iron man, I could have gone harder. But it is a potential outcome, isn't it? But, coach, you told me to stay with these numbers for the day, and that's not what we're saying, is it? It's absolutely taking responsibility. And obviously risk, reward, it's something that I really push on our athletes is sure, take a risk. It's a huge reward if it pays off, but there are consequences.

Yeah, no, totally. And it's funny because all levels of athletes, like you said, from a person who's doing their first sprint distance triathlon to guys that are competing to win a Kona depending upon the race. It's funny that you say risk reward is oftentimes that's a part of the conversation that I'll be having with athletes. You have nothing to lose here. Go for it. You know what I mean? Maybe take some pretty massive risks that could completely explode and will cause people to criticize you. They'll cause them to criticize me for making decisions, but I'm willing to take that risk. You're willing to take that risk where there's other races where it's like, no, it's incredibly important for you to follow this plan and to stay more conservative just based on, like you said, kind of the risk reward ratio. So. Yeah.

Can you think of a specific time where you told an Athlete or you yourself took a big risk and it paid off, man.

So, so many. I would say I would, I would.

Love, Ryan, for you to tell the story of your approach to getting selected for the, the very first Olympic triathlon, which happened to be in Sydney, Australia, and your process, mind process and the way you went about getting selected. And I've heard this story. You tell this story before. I'd love the listeners to hear this. And this is almost what Jordan's asking. This is an amazing story on risk, reward and how you got selected for the team, for the US Team and the way you went.

Well, I guess maybe a couple of things and I'm not sure exactly what you're alluding to, but I can kind of tell the story is, yeah.

We.

On our selection year, which was 2000, we had two trials races or two selection races and one of them was actually in Sydney and there was what would be a WTS level race. Now it was World Cups at the time and there was a World cup in Sydney earlier in the year. And then maybe two months later we actually had an on American soil trials race. And I was training well, I was racing well and I was probably overly confident. And so the first selection race in Sydney, it was early, so I was like, I don't, I don't need to be ready that early and I don't want to go that early. So I completely skipped that race, which made it so that, like, I, that was a pretty big risk to take, you know, by basically eliminating 50% of my chance to, to make the team. And then so at the trials race, and I already talked about this a little bit, it was just outside of Dallas, Texas. It was insanely hot, it was insanely muggy, and I had the worst swim of my life and just a horrible swim came out. I don't even know technically what pack I was in on the bike. Remember, this was draft legal, but certainly not the front pack. And I had to work and I had to work with people on the bike, but we, the, the front pack was just gone in a way. And like I could see once again it was a, like I was in a situation that I wasn't expecting myself to be in. And I guess there's two, two parts of the story. A, I, I should have raced before because I did take away my opportunity and I mean, who knows what would have happened if I wouldn't have made the team. But secondly, I did in my mind though as an athlete. And I mean this is like when you're in that like, in that zone or in that space, there was zero doubt in my mind that I was not going to make the Olympic team. Like, I just knew I was going to do whatever it took to make the team. And so despite having, you know, a horrible swim there and then, you know, having an okay bike, I would say, like, so I started running. I know there's a photo, which I wish I could find it. There's a photo of T2, and it's like the pack that I was riding in, and guys are like, you know, still running with their bikes, you know, to the racks, and I'm like, I've got my run shoes on, and I'm like, exiting transmission. I mean, I came into transition with him, but I just wanted to get onto the run so quickly because I knew that was my last chance to catch people. And then, yeah, I had a phenomenal run, and I ended up eating through, you know, the people and ultimately, you know, making the Olympic team. But once again, it was a massive, massive risk for me because I eliminated one, you know, race by not even going to it. And then ultimately, and I think also that's a good, good thing. On that day, another lesson was I was having one of the worst races of my life. But mentally, I. When and. And I mean, for multiple reasons, but mentally, like, I was so committed to, like, performing well on that day that I ended up, at the end of the day putting it together. So that was critical, but once again, it was a mindset. And that's another huge part of this sport, is the mental side of things, for sure.

Yeah. The power of the mind is an incredible thing, isn't it? And there's so many examples of athletes and historical events where the athlete. We've seen Kona, examples of people crawling to the finish line. And I happened to be in that event when Julie Moss, I was there that year competing, and, you know, that. That made more headlines than the actual, you know, I think Mark Allen winning the day. But. But, you know, but they're examples of extreme mental toughness to. To do what you set out to do.

And.

And that's a great example you've given of, you know, you actually putting all your eggs in one basket. Whether it was good or bad decision, that's what you did. And you ended up, you know, coming through and. And getting. Getting the end result. So, yeah, just another example to athletes who are listening that, you know, you know, you can. You can achieve things if you have the right mental approach, but, you know, you don't want to put Yourself under too much pressure to make, to make it, you know, happen, you know, when you've only got one option left, which is what you sort of put yourself into a corner. And selection of events and things like that is really something that we want to dig into too. And I know we've got a lot of topics to cover here, but from a coaching point of view, we've experienced two years of COVID in the world almost now and some countries have had a different experience. In Australia, it's been quite severe lockdown. Melbourne in fact, has had the most days locked down in the world, over 250 days of lockdown. I think it's, you know, quite a phenomenal amount of time where we've just been within 5 kilometer radius of our house or you know, basically not out and not allowed outside to exercise for more than an hour, et cetera. So from your point of view, have.

Such a great turbo trainer set up behind you. So, so from training for the last two years.

That's right, we have him. We have absolutely embraced the Zwift phenomenon that's, that's been going along and we've, we've managed. But I want to ask you about how you managed your coaching, how you managed your athletes. There were, there were races that were on the calendar, then all of a sudden they're off the calendar. You've planned six months out for this event and it's an Ironman and, and now four weeks out, the race isn't there. How have you managed that?

Yeah, it's been hard and it's definitely been on an athlete to athlete basis. You guys have, I know in Australia being locked down and you know, I was in Tokyo at the Olympics because I'm involved with USA Triathlon working with them and the national team athletes and the Olympic athletes and even on that circuit, on the world triathlon circuit, the Australians, I felt really bad for them because I know they were locked down. And if you leave the country, I think coming back is like incredibly hard. And that's if you could even leave. And so those guys were really struggling. But I, I would say with my athletes, you know, people, I think approached it in, in different ways and, and I can actually use specific examples of people that I work with. But you know, some people right away recognize that, hey, you know, races were going to get moved and I'm not happy with races getting moved and I'm just going to go into a maintenance mode and like fun mode. And so they found things to motivate them. They just said, pull off, pull races off the schedule. Um, and let's, you know, let's kind of do some free form stuff, you know, and go, you know, do some like, epic bike rides and stuff like that, which we were still able to do, you know, here you weren't locked down, you know, within five kilometers of your. Of your house. Other athletes really wanted to keep those races on the schedule and keep those carrots out there, you know, to grab. I think those are the athletes that had the hardest time with the whole situation because this, as you said, they were trained for an event, the event would get canceled, you know, have to hit the reset button, then train for the next event. You know, that event got canceled. And I mean, it's still happening, you know, as you guys know, like, I mean, like Ironman World Championships, like being moved, you know, from October to February, then from February to May and now May, it's in a different location. And, you know, I mean, that's really messed with people. And I think people, like, start getting to a point where they're like, you know, is this for real? And they start distrusting even if that's going to happen. Which, I mean, I think it's an incredible way to think. I think that was the hardest way to approach it. And, and I had athletes definitely who are doing that. And I personally, I tried to support them, but I would also, especially as we got further into the pandemic, I was like, listen, like, you know, we can gun for this and we can set all of our, you know, training toward this, but you need to mentally, this is a very delicate balance. You mentally need to be committed to that race, but you also mentally need to be willing to let go of it if you have to. And that was a hard, I mean, it was a hard place because like you said, people put so much time and so much energy into it. The other way that the third way that I had people approach it is they said, well, if races aren't going to happen, I still want to retain, I still want to remain fit. And like, you know, I want to increase my FTP. Let's set up. And that's what I would set up specific goals. Let's set up, you know, a, you know, let's do a 5K PR and might be on your own. Let's do an FTP, you know, PR, let's get that better. Or, or Strava segments, you know, hitting Strava segments and everything. And so, you know, that was kind of a fun to keep these, like I said, these carrots out there to keep, you know, people engaged and motivated and. Yeah, I, and I think, I mean, you can even see it. It's interesting with racing this year, I felt like, you know, and if you watch professional level racing, like all of a sudden there's about eight names that you haven't really heard so much that are really at the top of the charts. And like, those are people who, you know, they were young and they probably would have progressed really well over that period. We weren't watching them progress. And you know, some of the young, new young people and I mean, the Olympics were a good example of that, you know, but also just, you know, even in, even in the longer course racing.

Well, there's one specific athlete we wanted to touch on and that is the phenomenon of Sam Long, who has really exploded the last few years. And I imagine he is someone that you would have to really. He just wants. He's gung ho, you know, his personality is so out there and we love him for that. We talk about, about him a bit on the show for that reason. He's a great personality in triathlon, but I imagine he's someone that really wanted to race and you really would have had to have these conversations with about holding him back, for one. And he's someone that would have thrived off racing and not thrive so much off the training. Is that correct?

Yeah, it is. And he's actually a good example of, I mean, he's young and he's really full of energy and it was interesting because. And I'll use him. And Ben Hoffman, you guys mentioned Ben. Ben. Ben is later in his career. He's incredibly established. He has, you know, a resume, you know, that's 10 miles long and with a lot of amazing races. And so, you know, he had a new baby right at the end of 2019. He had a phenomenal end of his 2019. He was fourth in Kony, had the second fastest run there. He's right, you know, and then he. He actually ran the fastest marathon off a bike ever in Ironman, Florida, like, you know, a few weeks after that. And I mean, he was really fit. And then Covid hit and for him, you know, I think like philosophically, like he was like, you know, I have all my sponsors, you know, I'm going to bunker down and basically recharge the batteries and conserve energy, you know, and think long term and everything. Sam was at that point, I'd been working with him about two years. Like I said when I first started working with him, he was a young, young Kid, he was like 20, you know, 21, 22 years old, with boundless energy. I always say he's kind of like a. Like a puppy, you know what I mean? A really excited, like, lab puppy. And he just kind of like, you know, runs around bumping into stuff. He's just really excited all the time. And that's kind of. Which takes some harnessing of that energy, for sure. You know, I mean, it's one thing that makes him a great athlete, but also like, you know, giving him direction with that. But when, When Covet happened, he was highly, highly motivated. You know, he just. The season before, it was the first season that he actually started having good results. You know, he won a couple 70 point threes. He won an Ironman, you know, and he was just starting to see, I think, his potential. And so what he did at the beginning of that year, and this is a lot driven by him because, you know, I sat down with him, you know, what, you know, what do you want? You know, there might not be races. And he was like, you know, once again, I have boundless energy. Like, I want to crush stuff. And I was like, great. So once again, we set up Strava. I don't know if you guys followed the. Him and Sanders duking it out on Mount Lemon in Tucson, because we're all there. We were all training there at the time. And so, you know, I think, you know, Sanders said it and then, you know, Sam took it back from him. And it's pretty impressive. Actually. That whole thing was impressive because. Because if you look at the names of the guys who had those Strava segments before them, they're big name professional cyclists that are these little, you know, a hundred or I need to talk in kilograms with you guys. But, you know, these just really small cyclists, skinny cyclist guys, you know. And so then you have Sam, who's 175 pounds, you know, and 6ft 4 tall, like, you know, crushing a climb, which is, like, pretty fun. But, you know, he found motivation in that. And then with him, then when even what were little races popped up, because they were little races, they were, you know, there was nothing major on the schedule. He was 100% ready to go for them. He was fit. He was really fit. He was at the peak, you know, he's at. I mean, I wouldn't call it peak, peak fitness, but he was in a really good space because he just wanted that. And so it ended up, you know, working out really well for him because he was able to build his name and kind of build his brand and also build tremendous amount of fitness. Because once again, at the age of 24, you know, what we could get into his body during that year was, was so much, you know, and the gains could be. Percentages could be so much, you know, whereas like I said, in contrast to Ben Hoffman, I could have been. Could have trained really hard and really did stuff, you know, and got like, you know, half percent of a gain, whereas Sam could get 10% gain because of his age. So it really made sense for those two to take very different philosophies during that. And, and you know, Sam, it really paid off. Cause then he came into this year and, you know, races especially like domestically were happening a lot more and everything, and we were able to put together a really good season with him, and he was able to take everything that he gained in basically an off year and really kind of take it to the next level.

That's a really good answer. And it really would be helpful for the age grouper who's listening, because everybody's in that same position. Whether you're a professional or an age grouper, there will be races eventually happening. And you have to understand that at some point you will be actually lining up on the beach to compete in your race that you've been training for. Whether it's been delayed five times or not, in the next year, people will be racing again, the world will go back to normal. And you can choose the Ben pathway, which is look after yourself and not push yourself too much and, and ease your way back into it. Or you could take the Sam method, which is really be race ready, so when your first race comes, you're in great form. And, and that's really good for the listeners to hear. I think that there is not just one pathway here and that, you know, both have equally, you know, strong positive outcomes. And, you know, Ben could actually, you know, we're hoping down the track that this, this could, you know, prolong his. His career, probably.

Yeah, no, for sure. I would totally agree. Yeah. And I think with a lot of your athletes, like, another lesson is it's been a good opportunity to work on weaknesses. Swimming may be a challenge. If pools haven't been open, I'm not sure how they've been there.

They're all closed.

Yeah, exactly. Which is really unfortunate. But yeah, working on weaknesses is such a nice thing right now. You know what a weakness is in an athlete or something that they want to work on. It's such a great time because you can almost like treat those weaknesses as goals.

So yeah, one of the things on that with, with athletes who come to you, and we just touched on it a little bit before, but you've got maybe a guy who's, you know, not suited physiologically to do endurance sport. He looks like a sprinter and yet he wants to do an ironman and vice versa. Someone who looks like they could go all day and all night and then they want to do sprint. What's your advice to an athlete who presents for an event that clearly isn't suitable to them, but they're adamant that that's what they want to do? How do you cope with advising them.

Training them ultimately for that event? I always say that you can always tell what common athlete, like if I'm talking to an athlete on the phone who I've never worked with before for, and I want to get a gist of like what kind of an athlete they are, like, based on what you said, like maybe more fast twitch versus slow twitches. We say if you ask an athlete, you know, would you rather go run 20 miles or 40 kilometers, we'll say, you know, easy and aerobic, or would you rather go, do, you know, 6 by 800 meter repeats all out as hard as you possibly can? You know, your aerobic animals, you're like, you know, endurance guys are like, oh yeah, now I'll go run 40km every day. Every day, you know what I mean? You know, whereas you're like fast twitch dives. They'll be like, oh, I'm not, you know, what 40 kilometers, that's, you know, like I'll do the six, eight hundreds, you know, and eat that lactate and love it.

Exactly.

And I mean, yeah, because I'm, I'm the, I'm the former, like, I could, I could go all day every day and like, no problem. But man, you tell me to do six by eight hundreds and I'd be like, woof, that's, that does not sound pleasant or fun at all. But I always say you can tell exactly what you know. You don't even have to do, you know, any fancy physiology tests. Like that's the simple question test right there, almost.

Which one do you want?

Yeah, which one do you want? But I would say with those guys is, you know, likely. If they say, hey, I want to do those six by eight hundreds, what they probably need is the 40 kilometers and vice versa. But I guess with what your question is, you know, helping them understand that, you know, like what their engine is likely, you know, kind of, you know, used to and what it's Capable of and then working on, you know, those specific. Working on their weaknesses, which I know is hard for people. People to do. But you know, you got to say, I mean, you know, if you want to do an ironman and you're a fast twitch person, it's like it's a slow twitch event, you know, and sure we can use those strengths in certain ways, but really you're going to have to get out and kind of like, you know, train. And I guess from a physiology standpoint, that's the better position to be in. It's easier to incorporate, you know, endurance stuff into those batch switch people than fast twitching for those endurance people. That's, that's kind of tough, challenging, especially as we age.

The good thing is though, it is trainable, isn't it? And if you are determined to turn yourself into an endurance athlete and you are a fast twitch fiber athlete, it is possible.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely is.

One of the last few topics we wanted to touch on was recovery. Recovery is really a buzzword, especially over the last decade. You know, it's becoming more and more apparent to people that you have to train your hard sessions harder and your easy sessions easier. But we have also seen that kind of go a little bit too far. And we've had a lot of conversations about this and we'd love to know your perspective on that. People might be training a bit too easy. And we want to know what's your philosophy on recovery? How much recovery do you actually need? Pros versus age groupers after a really hard session? Is it one day, is it two days? You know, because some pros will have a really hard Tuesday morning, but then back up that Tuesday night and do something else really hard. And then their Wednesday is really easy to same thing Thursday. Some age groupers need Monday to Thursday. How do you know when to go really hard and then what's too easy as well?

Super complicated answer I would say to that. You know, you can use metrics to measure, you know, heart rate variability, um, you know, stuff like that. You know, there, there's a huge subjective component here on, you know, athletes and how they feel. I guess I like kind of more basic fundamentals on recovery is I definitely do lean toward like what, what, what you initially said is like hard days are hard, easy days are easy. Earlier on I was talking about the East Africans and this one big thing that I learned from them is they, their hard days are incredibly hard. You know, I'll have an age group triathlete visiting in town and I say, hey, you know, we're gonna go run with the East Africans. And they're like, I can't run with those guys. And I'm like, no, it's an easy day. You can, you know, and they're running five, five minutes per kilometer. Five, 30 per kilometer, you know, like for, you know, whatever, 15, 20 kilometers. And they're like, oh, I could run with those guys, no problem. I'm like, okay, yeah, well, tomorrow, you know, it's a hard workout day. And you know, in the hard workout day, then they're running, you know, 2:45 per kilometer. And you know, it's a whole, it's like very extreme. Like, they are very. They like really taught me that in that, you know, easy days, easy or it's just they, they provided more evidence that like, that is really, you know, really effective. It's really polarized. I guess it's the term, you know, that people use for that is using that polarized training. It does vary, I guess, a couple fundamentals that I would say is like, the fitter a person is, you know, the more of a foundation that they've laid, usually the less recovery they need. And maybe that sounds like a simple thing, but, but it's true. You know, if you have a person who, you know, has, has laid down a really big foundation of training ahead of time, normally they'll, you know, recover quicker and they need less days in between with recovery. Personally, I like to, even with age group athletes, depends on their age and older, you know, this is maybe another kind of like, kind of no brainer. But, you know, older athletes normally need and I would say older, I'd start saying, you know, 45, 50 plus, start needing more recovery for sure. But I like to block out days. With triathletes, I like to block out days where it's often a couple days in a row of heavier training, sometimes even three days in a row, you know, and then, you know, a couple days of lighter days. So you might go like three days on, two days off, two days on, you know, two days off, something like that. It's rare that, you know, all block like, you know, four hard days in a row and. Or it's rare that I'll, you know, only give, I would never give someone like, say just 12 hours of recovery. So I think the big, the big thing is, is like, it's usually blocked out a bit more, you know, on, on that. The thing with pros is you can do it however you want to because, you know, a Sunday is just another day of the week for them, you know what I mean? So, like, if it has to be easy, I think when you're working with age group athletes, you know, a common thing is, you know, people block up their weekends, obviously, because they have more time on their weekends. So, you know, which often means that say, maybe Mondays and, or Mondays, Tuesdays need to be lighter days, and then you can do something with the middle of the week to make that more intense at that time of the year. But I think, I guess the other thing is with recovery, and this is once again probably a pretty common concept, but what I found is, I think science finds too, is long aerobic work. It doesn't take. You don't have to incorporate as much recovery, the higher intensity. And I think that sometimes, you know, let's say you have an age group athlete who's training, you know, aerobically 18 hours a week, and they're taking a little bit less recovery. And then, you know, you start injecting some high intensity and some really good interval and speed working where their heart rate's elevated a significant amount and they're only training 12 hours a week. At that point, there actually needs to be more recovery once that intensity, you know, picks up. And I think that that's like something that sometimes people mess up. Like, they add intensity and they keep recovery the same, you know, the same amount. And I think that's like a big mistake that I see people make because your heart is just getting taxed a lot more. And that's when you start seeing injuries happen and everything when people aren't allowing to recover. But, and this is, I'll say this about Americans, and maybe Australians will fall into the same category, but I say this all the time, is, it's exactly what you said at the beginning, is most American athletes don't go hard enough on hard days and don't go easy enough on easy days. You know what I mean? It's not polarized enough. And that's a hard thing as a coach, to really try to convince people. But when they get it and when they see it, it's like, you know, you see it click in their brain. It's really exciting as a coach when you can get them to actually go easy on that easy run day. And then they see the value of that on their heart. You know, that's fun to see.

No, that's. That's spot on. And, and, you know, we in Australia, the athletes that we're coaching, when they come to us, they are training in the same zone the whole time in the middle zone and.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're not at the top of the hard zone and they're not at the easy zone ever. And that's the basic thing that we change straight away. You know, building their base and fitness. For some of them, it's brilliant because they've, they've just done that, you know, train between 70 and 90% of of their effort for the last 20 years. And, and they've never trained with intensity and never recovered properly. So the improvement is incredible. And then they start, you know, it still takes people time to understand that. You know, I'm riding with my group this weekend and tomorrow I've got my high intensity session, but it's okay to ride with my group today. Cause it's an easy session. And five minutes in, someone takes off up the road and all of a sudden the bunch is chasing that guy up the road in that easy ride. And then the next day they can't do the numbers that they wanted to do. And that's a hard lesson for people to hear. Is that an experience that you've found in your journey as a coach?

Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely. A lot. Yeah. And I think it's triathletes in general, people attracted to the sport are pretty intense people, like you said. So telling them to slow down is a hard thing. I think if you can show a person like, either by making them do this specific type of training or just showing them the science of what happens in your body in the one and two zones, like magic things happen at those low heart rates. And I think, like I said, our mentality is like athletes, it's like, well, hard. Hard's gotta be better. Hard's gotta be better for us. Hard's got to make us faster. And it's actually, it's kind of like you actually slowing down to speed up, especially on those recovery days, is. It's just incredibly valuable. And I can tell you, I mean, the top athletes that I work with, that's exactly how there are. And sure, they're slow, isn't as slow as, you know, some people, but it's still like, you know, percentage wise to them, it is really, you know, pretty easy. But even, even some of my most experienced athletes, you got to hold them back sometimes because like you said, people, they want to go hard. Yeah.

This is quite a technical question, but I really want to know the answer. We're super interested in this because the East African example you gave is still surprising. I know that they go easy, but five to five, 30 pace for them, their heart rate would be at, could be under 100. You know, that's, that's right.

Yeah, definitely.

And so I'd want to know from a pro athlete perspective, easy training, zone one or two training would be classified as anywhere up to that first lactate threshold point almost if someone was to get tested. Yeah, maybe their first point of their LT1 is 140 beats per minute or something. 130 for a really fit athlete, depending on the age and etc, that's just a general example. So like I said, these East Africans might be so far low that they're at 100 beats per minute. For example. How do, how do you know exactly where to sit up to that first know tipping point of the zone? Because if you sit right at the bottom, it's still slightly different to sitting right under that first kind of lactate threshold point, but it's still all easy. Does that make sense? So where wherever you sit in that scale is, it's still a slightly different session. So where do you sit in that right now?

That's a good question. I mean, because if you look at like say the one and two zones, like you said, the bottom end of low of zone one is quite a ways away from the top end of zone two. And I think, I mean that's like, once again, I would say it's very athlete dependent. And I would also say that usually those athletes who are like wanting to be at the high end of zone two are the ones who likely need to go towards the zone one and vice versa, you know what I mean? And you know that some of the ones that are in zone one, but I mean it's, it's, I mean it's. Yeah, I, I guess with those guys, if it's true, like if you're doing a complete recovery run, like recovery run, um, and I mean, I'll even put that like in, you know, in athletes and workouts, like, you know, this recovery run, it's like zone one, like strict zone one, you know, get out there, get the blood flowing, keep it very aerobic. Whereas like, you know, if I'm saying it's an aerobic base run and which can still be recovery oriented, it's in between, you know, it's not a hard day. I don't mind if athletes are like pushing to the high two zone unless they're doing that on, you know, every single one, you know, and that's when you got to be like, okay, you know, you know, maybe you should, you know, back off on these a little bit. You're always pushing those limits. And I find obviously with younger athletes and, or newer athletes, they always want to push the higher end, you know what I mean? And those are the ones to try to get them to slow down a little bit because then going back to what we were talking about before then, you know, they start learning their bodies and they start learning, oh, okay, you know, this is how this feels. You know, today I'm actually a little bit. And so I know that I could go to the top zone too, but I want it, you know, back off and maybe keep it a little bit lighter than that.

The East African example, they could probably run at 4 minute pace or 410 pace and still be in zone.

Yeah. And still be aerobic. Exactly. No, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure.

Well, we're conscious of the time and we really want to get some, some key things. The expertise that you studied in your days at college was around nutrition and we wouldn't want to leave this conversation without getting some real insights to your philosophies on especially endurance events and how the role of nutrition plays in not only on race day, but in preparation for the event and post recovery. So can you just give us a general overview of what your approach is to your athletes? And obviously guys who are doing a seven or eight hour Ironman compared to people who are doing an age group, 12 or 13 hour might vary in, in the amount of nutrition and the type of nutrition that you'd want to give your athletes. Can, can you just give us a bit of a summary on that?

Yeah. Talking about race day nutrition, first is, you know, the shorter the event because of the intensity level, obviously the less amount of calories that you can take in, say on a per hour basis. With 70.3, nutrition becomes incredibly important. With Ironman, it's the deal breaker, you know what I mean? If you don't do your nutrition right. It's kind of funny because 70.3 and Ironman I feel like are actually really analogous to a half marathon. In a full marathon, you know, in a 70.3 you can make some nutrition mistakes and still have a great day. In a half marathon, you can still make some nutrition pacing mistakes and have a great day. In an Ironman you make some nutrition mistakes and it's going to be a long day and you're probably not going to have your best day. But I mean, I guess, you know, I, I don't know where to start with this because it's such a big topic. But I mean, with each athlete I work with and Once again, I mean, it's pretty individualized, but there are parameters to work around. You know, we always lay out regardless of if it's the sprint race to an ironman race, you know, lay out a really specific, you know, nutrition game plan. And that's. I actually, from a product standpoint, I don't like play favorites because I think people like are attracted to, you know, certain things that work for them. And that's like a big thing that I tell people is I give them a little self accountability. I'm like, I want you to find what works best with you and I'll definitely, you know, suggest some items. And there's, there's constantly new stuff coming on the market and there's some really cool new stuff coming on the market, you know, like soon now too. But I think like, you know, I want the athletes to experiment with specific products. You know, is it fluids, is it gels, is it a spray, you know, is it, you know, actually solid foods and you know, what works best for them. But staying under like specific philosophies of, you know, you have to take in X amount of calories per hour and you know, I'm not on the like the metabolically efficient side of things. You know, some, that whole work, you know, taking in 60 calories per hour, you know, an ironman and trying to get away with that. I think that, you know, it is a possibility if you're keeping it incredibly aerobic. But you know, if you're, if you're like pushing your limits a little bit, you know, you need to be up in the higher calorie ranges and you know, but I also like to think of it as an IV drift for all races. And when I say that is like, you know, kind of like a constant flow of calories in and you know, as opposed to like big gut bombs every, you know, every hour or something like that. I like to break it into, you know, 15 or 20 minute blocks of, of, you know, nutrition. I can say that, you know, some athletes, it's like talking about what we were talking about before with like your slow twitch versus fast twitch people is fast twitch. Athletes are normally rifling through the sugar faster and so sometimes they, they have higher caloric needs. I just see that just metabolically they're that way and as long as their stomachs can handle that, then fine, it's okay, you know, whereas like the, the, you know, kind of the slower burn, athletes might not need to take in as many calories, but you know, people have gut issues. I think Finding that it's just, it's really a big thing to practice and, and stay on top of as far as general nutrition goes. And sorry because this is kind of all over the place. I, I like, I, I, I really with my athletes is I, I do believe in like periodizing nutrition as well. So there's during base times of the year and everything people will do more fasted workouts or more workouts where they're like, you know, not taking in very many calories because the aerobic, the workouts are really aerobic. They're mostly in fat metabolism. You know, we're working on that. But then I'm a major advocate of when you get into high quality work, into making sure that you're practicing race day or even maybe more nutrition during those workouts so that you can get quality out of those workouts. Because as you guys know, you know, you do a four hour bike ride that has a lot of intensity in it and you don't take nutrition in, you know, that last hour, two hours is the quality of the workout's just going to go down. I always tell people and is, you know, when nutrition should be really centered around and especially if you're really, you know, competitive and stuff should be centered around the training, you know, when you eat and how you eat should be centered around the train. I always tell people if you want a pint of ice cream, that's totally fine. And honestly the best time to do that is you get off a five hour bike ride and that's when you should eat the pint of ice cream. And honestly it's an okay time to eat it because there's a lot of good things in that pint of ice cream that your body needs in that moment. The time that you don't want to eat a pint of ice cream is one normally most of us do at 9 or 10pm at night when we're sitting around bored watching a movie. That's the last time you actually want to eat a pint of ice cream. So like to kind of pound my point in for like, you know, recovery foods and right times to eat. I always tell people that and they're like, so you're telling me to eat a pint of ice cream after my five hour bike ride. I'm like, well I'm not telling you to do that, but if you're going to do that then that's when you should do it, you know. So yeah, and I know that's kind of like I said, there's so much I mean, it's a whole, we could, we could probably do about, you know, five podcasts on this very topic. But, but I mean, yeah, there's so, there's so much to it and there's so many, you know, products. The super starches, like, I'm a big believer in those. But I also think that, you know, you, you need to combine that stuff with like, acute calories. And like I said, I know there's new products coming out that, you know, are even like, you know, aerosol sprays of calories that are like, making it easier even just to completely IV drip, you know, calories throughout without, you know, any issues. I mean, because sometimes people even have a hard time taking gels or whatever. So, yeah, there's some really neat, neat stuff on the horizon.

Even with nutrition, potentially easier. One of the last questions we want to ask and last thing on nutrition is caffeine. Thoughts on caffeine intake. How much can an athlete handle? And a lot of the pro athletes are sponsored by Red Bull, and so they are seen drinking Red Bull, but are they really drinking that much? We've kind of wondered. Is, you know, it's, it's not seen as the healthiest thing, but it can be very beneficial in a 70.3 or Ironman. Right? Yeah.

It's all about timing, of course, and caffeine. Caffeine is, it's an ergogenic aid. I mean, what it does, I think one of the biggest things that caffeine does that is beneficial for longer course racing is it does actually help keep our bodies in fat metabolism at higher efforts. And so it actually is saving sugar stores a bit. So there are some major positives with caffeine, but also it's a diuretic. Um, you know, there's kind of some counter, counterbalance things. It can upset people's stomachs. Um, so I actually, I, I, I'm a believer in caffeine. I advocate for caffeine, but more it's like in an Ironman, in the second half of the race, um, you know, Olympic distance race, you can get, get going with it right away. Cause it's such a short race for.

Olympic athletes before the race they'd be taking.

Yeah, yeah, even. Yeah, exactly. Even. Unless, unless it causes, once again, too much anxiety. Their pants a lot. Yeah. Over arousal. Exactly. Which you do see. You know what I mean? So, yeah, whereas with Iron man, like I've seen people experiment in Iron man, you know, starting to take caffeine early on and, you know, optimal amount is like, really, you Know, athlete dependent. But I, you know, if you look at like certain products, you know, historically gels have had say like 25 to 50 milligrams. And then the ones that are supplemented with caffeine, you know, Martin's came out with their, or Morton's, however you want to call it. You know, theirs have 100 milligrams. That's a lot of caffeine in one, you know, and 100 calories or so. 100 milligrams of caffeine is a really significant amount. And I think, you know, that's the problem now is, you know, people, how much do you want to take A cup of coffee is like 200, 200 milligrams, which is a pretty significant amount too. But I, with, with caffeine, I like, I a, I do advocate for it. Like said in Ironman, start taking it in, you know, halfway to even later age grouper depending, you know, if they're, you know, if they're running say a four, you know, plus hour marathon, I would incorporate even later, you know, into the bike ride with pros I'd incorporated in about mid ride. And because a, it starts helping. Well, the whole alert factor, but also the metabolism factor, it can help with. And at that point it's not impacting people's stomachs enough. But yeah, like I said, it's just like the nutrition, though. It's a thing that people have to practice. And you know, caffeine is, it's dependent. Your, your response to it is dependent upon how much you take on a daily basis. You know, people, you know, if they're heavy coffee drinkers, like, you know, the larger amounts needed to get the same, you know, effects and all of that too. So it's very personalized. But especially, especially.

Ryan, you're not a coffee drinker, are you?

I'm not. Not at all.

And for, for. I'm not a coffee drinker either. And we're a bit of a rare breed, I think. And, and to have supplements with caffeine in it, it almost feels to me like I'm getting a double effect because I just don't have the body that's adapted to caffeine.

No, I, I'm exactly the same way. If I eat a gel with caffeine in it, I notice it. Like, it's definitely noticeable. Yeah. Whereas, yeah, coffee drinkers, like you said, you give them 20 of them and they'd be like, what? Yeah, totally. I mean, I think physiologically it's still having an impact obviously on people who are normal Caffeine users, but, but they might not notice it as much as we do. Yeah.

Well, we really appreciate your time, Ryan. Last couple of quick questions. Ironman California is coming up. This is a really big battle between a heavy list of the, the heavy hitters in triathlon, including your athlete, Ben Hoffman. What are your predictions for the race?

Well, Ben's not racing. Yeah. Yeah, he's not racing. Yeah, I think he is on the start list, but yeah, he's not racing. I actually, yeah, we talked about it. He's doing Oceanside the following week. Sam, actually this was a conversation that we had when it came up because he, he wanted, when, when Kona was canceled, you know, that's what I was like, these late season races are going to turn into world championship races. And, and the type of course that California is. I told Sam, I was like, that's the race you need to be at. And, and there's good people. Unfortunately his. Well, and, and maybe fortunately and honestly this is a good thing and this is a great lesson is his family had planned a vacation in Kona for that was going to be post Kona and, and that got canceled. So instead, and this was before everything got moved with, with like California and stuff, they planned a trip to Costa Rica. And so when that happened, I was like, okay, well, kind of no brainer for me. You cover from 70.3 worlds. We, we have plenty of time to get in a really solid Ironman block, especially based on the background that he had going into 70.3 worlds and let's do California and knock it out of the park and go against some of the big names too. And unfortunately this shows in some ways how mature Sam is. And he was like, oh, well, my parents had planned a trip to Costa Rica and it's a family trip. And he was like, you know, and that's pretty important to me. And I was like, you're right. I was like, you've had an amazing season. Like, I really want you to take a break, you know, after the season. I want you to recharge the batteries. I think that's incredibly important. And, and you're 25 years old. There's, you have, you know, a dozen years or more of, of, you know, going head to head with the top guys in the sport and to sacrifice the family vacation at this point, even though he's a professional, you know, just so he could go to Ironman California, you know, wasn't worthwhile. And I was like, no, let's don't. And you know, and he was like, well, I want to do Iron Man Chattanooga instead. And I said, fine. You know, I was like, but once again, that's kind of the risk reward thing. I was like, go there and give it a shot and just see what happens. And it ended up being not so great. But he kind of knew that would, you know, that would be the case. And I also knew, and this is like Little Sam, long story. Uh, people were like, how will he do in Chattanooga? And I was like, if, if he did poorly at 70.3 worlds, I was like, he'll win Chattanooga by a long ways. I said, but if he does well at 70.3 worlds, I was like, he might not make it to the starting line. And that was like more of the case because, I mean, he was just on such a high after, you know, 70.3 worlds. But, man, that the race is going to be super interesting because there are some really big names in there. It's an incredibly flat course of. The potential for speed is high. But I don't know if you guys have been following, so I do actually have a couple age group athletes there. But it's, it's supposed to rain. I don't know, I need to do conversions or you guys need to pull out your converters. It's supposed to rain three inches that day, which is an insane amount. And the high temperature, you know, it's like, I don't know, like 16 degrees or something. It's, it's going to be a cold and rainy day, which will make for an interesting race both for just age groupers wanting to communicate, lead an Ironman, but also for the pro race. That will make it really fascinating. So, yeah, I'll be, I'll be curious and I actually, I checked this morning. I'm checking every day to see what the weather's like and it's still saying it's supposed to be really, really unpleasant. So that will have an impact on the race for sure.

We've, we have an age group of competing as well. And he said that Sacramento has had 221 days of no rain. And on Sunday they're going to have all.

No, it's. It's absolutely crazy. And that's what I actually. Independent of the race. I saw some similar article that said something about, you know, is all the rain California, the Central Valley is getting, you know, going to save California from its, you know, it's drought, you know, woes. And it's like, no, it's just going to happen. It happens to be during the Ironman. It's going to be an interesting race. But honestly think, you know, some of those guys, while most of those guys are incredibly lean, and when you're talking about, you know, 15ish degrees and wet conditions like that, it can be tricky.

It can really be hypothermia.

Yeah. I'll be curious how people handle that.

Yeah, I really love that answer about Sam because you can tell he's so gung ho. And so for him to really choose a family holiday over a race that I'm sure he would hate to miss out on because he wants to compete against the best is really great lesson that we can all learn. Our final question we always like to ask a guest is, what's a life lesson you've learned over the last year that you would like to pass on to others?

Oh, boy. It's a lesson I learn every year. Is patience the biggest and most magic ingredient in life, I feel like with a lot of things is simply time. You know what I mean? Giving stuff time, being patient with stuff, being patient with myself, being patient with athletes. And I think it's kind of funny. It does summarize our conversation a lot because. Because in endurance sports, I do think, like, that is. It's the magic ingredient. You know, it's the magic ingredient that really makes great athletes. And also it's just, you know, time and, you know, from year to year, consistency and stuff. And even for myself, like, embracing that and being patient with the process and understanding the process is good. Maybe slowing. Once again, this kind of ties into the whole conversation slowing down a little bit to. So ultimately we can go faster. Yeah. So, but anyway, yeah, I would say that's it. It's been, I think, also with COVID and everything and, you know, restrictions and everything like that, patience is really, really key because it's, you know, a lot of people, I always tell them, and I mean, this is something we can tell, you know, the listeners of the podcast, you know, triathlon's not going anywhere. You know, like, if you miss this race this year, guess what, it's, you know, next year they're going to have the race or, you know, it is going to resume at some point. And I think, you know, like, realizing that and understanding that, not getting all caught up and I need this, you know, now. Okay. You know, I can be patient with it and, you know, enjoy the process a little bit more.

Yeah, the being flexible and patient, not only in life, but on race day, isn't it, you know, losing your mind when people are going past you at the start of a bike leg or getting off the a bike and running and seeing people run away from you. You need incredible patience and flexibility to keep reassessing your journey, don't you? Whether it's on race day or whether it's in training and keep reassessing. That's one of the things that we really push in our coaching group and it's great that you've actually said that lesson at the end of this podcast because it totally sums up our philosophy, I think.

Yeah, no, for sure.

We really appreciate your time. I know we've gone over time. It's fantastic having you on and the listeners will get an enormous amount of value out of what you've said over the last hour and a bit. So, yeah, we've got lots more things we wanted to discuss unfortunately.

But yeah, I'll come on some other time.

Fantastic.

Thank you so much, Ryan. Absolute pleasure to have you on.

Right on, guys. Thanks a lot, Sam.