Quitting Short Course for Ironman with Natalie Van Coevorden

Natalie, it's been 5 and a half years since you were last on the podcast. Welcome back to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you. I feel like a lot's happened in that time, so yeah, I'm really excited to chat.

Yeah, a lot has happened since then, and, and I do want to take it back to pre-Tokyo, and I don't want to start on a negative, but, but far out, we spoke to you on, on our, on that podcast, and you, we were sure you were going to the Olympics, and, and that was a bit of a negative experience for you. So, so yeah. Yeah, you don't have to dive into it too much, but take us through kind of what happened there and how you look back on that now since you did end up going to Paris 2024.

Oh, I don't really feel— honestly, it feels like a lifetime ago. Um, yeah, so much has happened between now and then. I feel like other sort of memories in my career kind of overrode that sort of, uh, negative part of my life. Um, yes, I think last time I spoke to you, I was actually in Europe for 2 years, um, at that time. And making that decision ultimately let me off the team in Tokyo, which is kind of disappointing because I feel like I was having some great results in that time and I feel like I would have showcased, yeah, some of my, yeah, a really good result on the day at the Olympics. But yeah, I didn't get selected, so it was a tough time for me. But over the past few years, like qualifying for the Commonwealth Games and then rebuilding for the Olympics in Paris, like I said, yeah, it's really set the stone for other events that's happened.

Yeah, we can, we can skip over that. You were performing so well and you were racing so consistently in Europe, and I think what you're alluding to is they weren't seeing you on home soil at that, in that, through that COVID period, and so you might have been overlooked there. But you did make it to Paris, and yeah, talk us through Paris and that journey of achieving that dream. And I think all the Aussies kind of came back just a little bit disappointed in their performances, but still you made the Olympics, a lifelong dream. So much work to get there. How, how do you look back on that now?

Yes, having that setback with Tokyo and then obviously achieving like another major games, the Commonwealth Games, I knew that I was in really good shape to perform at the test event in 2023, which was actually on the course in Paris. And I think that whole time I was just like believing in myself and trusting in my ability that I didn't have to prove to everyone else that I deserved to be on that start line. I knew that I was capable of being there. And even though I probably should have been there 3 years or 4 years before that, I was really, really proud that I made that team. And like I said, it was a lifelong dream for me to qualify for the Olympics in Paris. It wasn't a result that I think I was capable of by any means. I think I went into that Olympic Games probably running at about 80%, to be honest. I feel like we worked so hard every single day leading to those Games to try and be the best athlete I could be, but I think in hindsight it actually drove me into the ground. And on a course like the Olympics, which demands so much out of you, like we had the currents and the water and then, you know, really demanding bike course with all the different aspects around that. Um, yeah, I just came into it tired, um, basically. So I was pretty disappointed not to showcase what I thought I could on Olympic stage. Um, and I think that kind of represented the relay also. We didn't really perform the way that we should have in that either. So yeah, it's not— it wasn't what I wanted, but I think, yeah, like I said many times to people, that I'm an Olympian and yeah, no one can really take that away from me now. And it's a special part of my career and my life, and I'll cherish that forever.

You'll always be an Olympian. That's one thing you can always say, which is absolutely brilliant. And you should be congratulated for that one. Hanging tough to fight to get, you know, discounted and then, and then get yourself back on the team. And, uh, uh, is there anything you feel that you did poorly in your taper, or was it just too much excitement about getting as fit as you possibly could for the race? Was there something in particular now you look back on and say, oh, maybe I need to revisit that taper? Or have you changed many things for races, you know, Ultimately, this is probably one of the biggest events of your career, the Olympic Games, and it only comes around every 4 or 5 or 3 years depending on what, what era you're in.

Depending on COVID, yeah.

Is there any, is there anything, it's always good to look back and adjust things that, that might not have worked. Can you give our listeners an insight into how that looks?

Yeah, so for me, I think actually wasn't my taper. It was the fact that I I had, I think I had 4 coaches in 5 years actually, um, leading in from 2020 up to 2024. And for me, I found, I found like what I was working for me around 2022 and 2023. And then basically Kaplan Australia said, well, we're not going to fund you if you stay with a certain coach. So I had to make decisions based off funding and support rather than probably what really worked for me as an athlete. And I think we got really caught up in the mixed relay. And for me as an athlete, I know that my ability lies in endurance and steady training work, and that's actually where I showcase my best work. It's not about actually smashing myself every single day because it just makes me tired and then I get worse. So, um, the coach that I had at the time leading into the Olympic Games, unfortunately that program was just not for me. And in my back of my mind, I was like, I need to, I'm not getting results, but I need to stay here because if I don't stay here, then I'm not going to get selected for the Olympics. So I was in this real tussle in my mind of like, what's, what gets me to the Games basically. And, um, unfortunately, yeah, I suppose rare results probably in 2023 at the start of the Olympic qualification period actually led me to being on that team rather than my results in 2024 because Yeah, I was having some really disappointing results. So yeah, it's not— I don't think it was really about the type of all the work that I was doing so much. Yeah, in the lead-up, those 2 weeks or whatever before the Games, it was probably the 9 or 10 months before that that led to not my best result.

Makes a lot of sense. And let's not skim over, um, your mixed relay result at the Comm Games, which you mentioned getting a bronze medal there. Was that one of your career highlights? And, and you've, you've done a lot of mixed relays with with the Aussie team. And, and you mentioned the last podcast that in 2019 you had that, um, medal at the World Champs as well. Um, yeah, was that, was that Comm Games one of the highlights of your career?

I mean, it's pretty, um, hard now watching the Commonwealth Games ads coming on TV at the moment, and to think that maybe I could be the last Commonwealth Games triathlete, um, to represent Australia, because maybe one might not know that, come on, that triathlon's been taken out of the Commonwealth Games, um, this year. So Yeah, it was actually really cool. I think people would try and dismiss the Commonwealth Games, but for us it was actually a really great stepping stone towards the Olympics and then bigger major games. So yeah, to have a medal on like a huge stage like that against some pretty amazing athletes, um, is a really part of great part of my career.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a, uh, a little, little bit of a full circle moment here, um, because Dad was actually in the first Comm Games triathlon team in, in 1990, was it, Dad? So you were in the first and Natalie was in the last.

Yes, it was, uh, in New Zealand, which, uh, wasn't a big trip across the ditch. Um, but, but it was an exciting time to be part of the very first triathlon, uh, at Commonwealth Games. Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was, uh, yeah, big, big news for triathlon in those days in 1990. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really special actually. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, it's no shortage of good competition there, especially the UK athletes are, um, as good as you can get. Who won gold in 20— in the relay.

Great Britain, I think it was, and that it was, uh, Scotland, I'm going to say, was second.

Yeah, yeah. Great Britain.

Yeah.

Very, very strong and still are. And a lot of those same athletes in that kind of era, um, have made that switchover like you have. Um, Georgia Taylor-Brown and a few others have made that switch to, uh, to long course. So, so yeah, post, post Paris, um, how are you feeling, uh, in those next few months? And, and you ended up announcing, doing a big announcement at the end of 2024 that that's it, you're, you're done now with short course and, um, and, and you're switching to long course, you know. So how did that announcement come about, come about, and that decision? And yeah, what was the emotion behind that as well?

I think a lot of people think you've just gone to these major games and you're on this high and, you know, but I kind of came home and I swear on an all-time low. I thought to myself, am I still good enough to do triathlon? Like, is this the end of my career? Like, and should I dabble in long course? And for the race that I actually did post, uh, the Olympics in 2024, I remember getting up that morning for the race and was like, I didn't even want to be here. You know, like I was just in such a terrible mindset because I just hadn't found my feet yet. And I give credit to my coach, who's my coach currently, um, Ryan Williams, because he just gave me so much confidence in myself that I could be on a start line, I could be competing against the best girls in the world in, in 70.3. And I doubled in a few 70.3s when I was still doing short course, so I knew that I really loved that distance. I knew that I had a, I did have a career in that, but it did take me a few months to just, yeah, find my confidence back. And, um, I think a lot of people will know, like, every race that you could see me at, I was vomiting and, you know, like, I was just having, I had so much pressure on myself from short course and I was taking that across into long course. Where now I feel like, yeah, I've kind of taken that weight off my shoulders and I can be, yeah, one of the best athletes I can be on race day. But, um, yeah, it was definitely a moment where I thought to myself, I need to make this move to still love triathlon. Um, because I had so much politics and pressure and everything else that surrounds being in short course. So, um, yeah, I'm really, really happy. I think a lot of people can see that, that results come with happiness and contentment and whatever else. So, um, yeah, it's been a really great career change, uh, so far. I think I made it at the right time.

I did— oh, you go, Dad.

I was just going to say, it's interesting, um, also the program that you're doing for yourself matters, doesn't it? Uh, you know, you're doing something that you weren't actually thinking was right for you, uh, at the time leading into Paris. And it was almost probably a relief, I can imagine, when you can say, right, I'm not, I'm not doing that form of training anymore. I'm going to go back to what I know works for me. Was that kind of how, how you felt?

Oh, 100% it was. I mean, now I'm on my own sort of terms, and I'm believing in the training that's being prescribed to me every day. And I think having a coach that I can sit down with and we can discuss things that I think maybe will work for me or new things and how we can build on my training and racing. And I think that's been really critical in my, in my change. And I think he knows too, it was a bit of a slow build, you know, it took me probably 6 months to my first big result in Geelong, start of last year to actually, yeah, start believing in myself again that I was capable of, yeah, racing the best girls in the world. So, um, yeah, it's definitely been a huge huge switch in my mind. I think that's played a critical part in my results so far.

How much impact, Natalie, does that victory have on your mindset and your well-being about racing and your confidence? Does that— is it almost like an aha moment? Like, oh, far out, I just won that race. And you've competed a long time since you've been a very young girl, but was that kind of a little bit of a, like, far out, I just did that? Tell us about that experience.

Well, funny enough, Geelong Morning, I woke up the night before the race, I was sick as a dog, you know, classic flu symptoms. I remember calling my coach being like, I'm not starting today. I don't feel good. He goes, just go, try your best, you know, just get through. And then every little part of the race, I was like, oh, I'm still here. I'm still here. You know, and then I was winning the race and I was like, oh my gosh, like, okay, I'm actually going to do this. And I think there was so many moments of that race where I was like, I wasn't going to start, but I've now just won the race. And I was like, I think everything just came together on that day. And yeah, like you said, um, it really helped my confidence and, um, made me believe in what we were, what we were doing and what I was capable of. Um, and I think that showed through, yeah, winning the Fort Macquarie the next race that I did too. Um, but I just, yeah, I just, I just believed, which is as simple as it sounds, but, um, it's, yeah.

Awesome to have that backing from your coach and just to have someone in your corner just say, hey, you can do this. And it's so funny, you know, hearing the behind the scenes of what you were going through in that 6-month period, you know, or longer post-Olympics and the emotional turmoil. And, you know, from my perspective, I remember just seeing the result and going, whoa, that's unreal for Madeline. But I was like, okay, kind of makes sense, you know, gun ITU triathlete, you know, jumping up, getting a win. But then the backstory to get there is so much deeper and more challenging than it just seems on paper. You just, you come and get the win. It's, it's It's so nice to hear. And you come out with a bang.

Yeah.

Winning your first two races. Um, yeah, that must have felt pretty good backing up at Port Mac as well, especially when there was no swim, which is your, your strongest leg.

Yeah. I mean, Port Macquarie was kind of crazy to me too. I mean, I think I started probably 2 minutes or so back, um, on the bike and I just ticked off the next athlete to the next athlete. And then I was like, okay, I'm kind of at the front now, but I actually don't know if I'm leading because of like the dynamics of how it all kind of works. It wasn't until on a run where I was like, oh, I've had a really, really good ride today. And I think, like you said, I was a bit nervous because, yeah, I do have my strongest leg, but I think it just showed me that every part of my race now is getting stronger and stronger. And I have to believe in my weaknesses that are being my strengths. And yeah, I think it can show no matter what worries that you have on race morning or the night before the race, um, I can deliver a really good result.

That's, that sickness is so interesting and it does happen to some athletes where they have a shocking night, not the ideal preparation, you know, absolute lack of sleep and still come out and perform, and your body's just super capable of it. Uh, I didn't know that, that part about the pressure you're putting on yourself, or that was happening, um, in the short course. You were vomiting out of nerves before races and pressure, and you just were feeling the weight, and you, you're probably not enjoying the races anymore either.

Yeah, so like probably from, well, I didn't even qualify for the Olympics in Tokyo to probably to Geelong, actually. I was pretty— sounds crazy, but it sounds— I was actually throwing up the race because I was just so nervous. Of like not getting funded, not getting supported. Um, everyone watching me knowing that I'm going to have a bad result or a good result, you know, just the external pressures rather than just getting on with the job that I knew I could do. I've done it 100, 150 times in my career, you know, and yeah, it's pretty amazing to me that now I can stand on a start line in the morning and just think, just feel relaxed and feel, yeah, in a really good sort of headspace that I know that No matter what the result is today, I've got a really good training block behind me and I've got, there's always another race too. And I'm going to choose that next race, you know? So, um, yeah, people think that we're like, I don't know. I think age groupers think that we're just these, yeah, exactly. You know, but we're all going through the same emotions and I always joke with people on the start line. I'm like, I wish I was like an age grouper today because they can just go out there and have fun. There's no pressure, you know? Like, but no, we're like standing on the start line trying to win. So I love both, both aspects of it.

But yeah, that really is an amazing turnaround. And, and look, your, your first year was— it went, you know, I mean, I'm curious to hear your, your reflection from your first year because on paper it's, it's almost as good as you get. You won your first 2 races, podium 4 out of your first— I think you did 8 or 9 long course races last year, mix of T100 and 70.3. Um, but you know, 4th, 5th, 8th place. Um, results were all there. Obviously it took the pressure off because you're enjoying it. What was your review of that first season?

Oh, it's pretty amazing to be honest. I think I had 3 wins last year and yeah, we have 6 podiums and 3 wins. And I think every time I went to a race, I was like, my expectation is now to be standing on a podium because I know that's what I, I knew I could do. Um, and I actually had a knee injury for 10 weeks of last year too. So last, last year, sorry, sorry. Yeah, it was pretty amazing that I could still turn out good results, um, even with an injury, um, middle of the year. And I think it's like what you said, it was like I had such a good base the whole year that no matter kind of what happened to me, my little bit of a sickness or with my injury of my knee, I came back probably healthier than ever at the back end of the year because I had such a good base, um, behind me. So yeah, I'm really proud of last year actually, to be honest, coming off a year of 2024 where I had so much disappointment in myself and what I thought I was capable of to come out and yeah, really hit the nail on the head and, um, be enjoying triathlon again. Um, yeah, it showed in my results and I think I'd like to, yeah, hopefully carry that into, yeah, 2026.

How impactful do you think that pressure that you were putting on yourself had on your results? And, and then the difference between, okay, now I've won some races and I'm on the podium regularly. You've got a completely different mindset, haven't you, compared to what you were thinking before? You're still the same athlete, although you'd probably trained differently to what you were doing in that Olympic year, obviously, from the program that you aren't happy with. But the mindset has a lot to do with it, doesn't it? And the controllables we talk about when we're talking to our age group athletes is, you know, don't have that weight of expectation on performance so much as, as execution is kind of more important. You know you've done the training and you've just got to go out there and execute, uh, to the best of your ability. And every race is just another race. It's not, you know, the be-all and end-all of your season. Is that the way you're approaching it when you've got that confidence back from, from that sheer fear of competing to now, I can't wait to compete?

Yeah, I think it comes from, it comes from training, right? But just every day I turn up to training and I know I can do what's on my training program. It's nothing special, it's just literally just hitting the numbers that are prescribed for me. And I think that's what brings up the confidence in my performance is just the consistency that I'm getting every week, day in, day out. And yeah, that pressure that I was getting was because I think the more that I didn't perform, the more that I put pressure on myself to perform. So now coming into 70.3, I just had that weight off my shoulders. I was like, well, it is what it is to kind of start with. And then once I kind of won a few races, I knew what I had to do. And like I said before, even the day that I won Geelong, I wasn't doing anything special. I was just doing what I knew I was capable of, and that was just sticking in a race as long as I could. And then, um, my strengths kind of, yeah, played out the best way that it could. So yeah, I think there's lots of different, lots of different factors around pressure, but I think it all comes from knowing that you have the ability to do that in training and transferring that across to across the race day.

Absolutely brilliant insight. It's, yeah, what a journey. And you're, you're right at the start, a lot has happened the last 5 years. And, and so I'm keen as to jump into the training now and dive right into it and, and making that change. So, so what, what are the biggest changes in training since switching from, from short course to long course? How did you start, how did you start building that base and, and, and leading into Geelong last year?

I mean, I suppose the biggest thing for me, like, last week I just came off a 500-kilometer cycle week, which is something that I would never have done in short course. So for me and my coach, it was probably spending the most time I possibly could on my TT bike because that's what we're racing on. So I actually haven't ridden my road bike since the Olympics, which is pretty crazy to some people, but I just love riding my TT bike so much. And yeah, I think that's thrown in my racing, that, um, riding that TT bike so much is what we're trying to do for 90 kilometers or 180 kilometers for some people. Um, but I'm still training probably the same amount of training as what I was in short course. So roughly that 25 hours a week. Um, but I've probably taken a little bit less focus off my swimming. Um, because I know that is probably one of my strengths and I found in 70.3 it's not as— on T100 you've got 20 girls to deal with, so you're not getting whacked across the head or you're not having to sprint the first 200 meters to find your space in the water, I suppose. So for me it's like just trying to get, yeah, 2 sessions I suppose of threshold type of work a week, one with my wetsuit cuz that's what we, funny enough, we do a lot of races in our wetsuit. Um, and, um, rest of it's just trying to get swimming Ks in, I would say. Um, the bike is fully turned into like a lot of steady work. Um, a lot of high-end threshold work kind of also, but shorter sort of sessions, not in long sessions. Um, and now with T100 too, because the courses are a lot of corners and a lot of ins and outs, we still need to add in, yeah, some high, kind of similar to short course work, you would say, so 3 minutes, 4 minutes at that higher intensity, just because coming out of the water, that's just completely different, um, race. But I think the biggest thing for me is probably the run. Now I'm not running as much as I was in short course. I'm only running 4 times a week. Um, and 2 of those, or 2 or 3 of those actually sessions a week and 1 is a long run. So we're trying to maximize what I'm doing as much as possible. Um, but yeah, it's pretty easy to see here with that I'm not running a huge amount of Ks. Um, but yeah, trying to get the work in, in bigger sort of sessions.

I have a lot of questions about, about all that. So I'm, I'm keen to dive into it. Uh, if we, if we kind of start with a swim. So you, you've backed that off. You said only 3. 3 swims a week and a couple of those are threshold sessions?

2.

I swim, I know I swim 5, no, I swim, uh, 5, 5 times a week, 6 times a week, but 2 of them are only harder sessions. The rest of it is just mostly going through the motions of swimming, I suppose you could say. Yeah.

Yeah.

That was, that was quite surprising for me. So I was kind of, I mean, you're confident you're swimming, but that's, that's backing it off right, right, right off. Um, Okay. And so what are those threshold sessions? What, what do they look like volume-wise? What reps you doing?

Um, so they can go probably range from like a 2K main set to a 3K sort of main set. Um, for an example, last week I had a, uh, wetsuit session, so that was 5K swim and then it was 30 100s on the 125. Um, and that's basically just trying to swim at race pace, I would say. So like a 1:10, 1:12. Um, just consistently. Um, and yeah, I think. We've been doing that because, um, getting used to swimming in your wetsuit, um, has been a really good thing. But then, um, in the pool we try and do like some front-end 50s into some threshold work. Um, so yeah, everything's a little bit different but similar type of, uh, session.

Where are you swimming your open water swims? Uh, in, in, uh, in South of Sydney where you are at the moment?

Um, I don't like going in the ocean by myself, so I go into the ocean pool because we have a lot on the coast of Wollongong, we have a lot of 50-meter open water pool, like ocean pools. So yeah, I really like swimming in those because it kind of gives you the same, a similar sensation, I suppose, to swimming in the ocean, but there's no sharks in there. So yeah.

And what do you, what's your mindset around swimming? Because you know, you're, you're at that 1:10, 1:12, 1:13 pace for a race. Are you trying to improve? Are you just trying to maintain? I mean, you're always trying to improve, but how do you even lift your ceiling from here when you've been at your ceiling for so long?

Wow. It's kind of weird because I feel like I've been at the same pace since I was 15 years old, which is kind of funny to a lot of people, but I actually love pushing myself hard in the water because I have such, so much enjoyment around swimming hard. And I do a lot of my, well, I do all my swimming by myself too. So I'm just pushing me against the clock and I know what paces I can swim. So yeah, that's kind of good enough for me.

Unreal. Unreal. Okay. So keep breaking down. So that's the swims. I'd love just an overview of the training split if you're willing to give it to us. So, um, what does your whole week look like and where does your swim bike and runs all fit in?

So I kind of, a lot of days actually I'm only doing 2 sessions a day. Um, it's probably twice a week I'm doing 3, uh, sessions a day. Sometimes I'm also doing 2 gym sessions a week too, so I try and add those in on some lighter, um, sort of days. Um, but I mean, off this week I'm trading 28 hours, which is a higher week for me because I'm just doing so much bike volume at the moment. Um, so yeah, 15 hours is riding and then, yeah, you can break down probably 4 and a half hours, I suppose, of running and then the rest is swimming and gym, you would probably say.

Yep. And then what days are you doing, like, how do you split them up between, um, Monday to Sunday? You know, what's hard, what's easy?

Oh, I feel like I ride hard every day, to be honest. So I feel like that's probably the biggest change in long course is that I feel like every ride has a focus. So you're not, you can't, unless you're maybe doing like 1 hour easy after a hard run session, I feel like every ride you have to concentrate on, on a wattage or it's a heat session or, you know, so I actually really like that. But generally, I mean, Mondays you say are an easier day. Tuesdays is like a long run, maybe a tempo run, um, easy swim. And then, uh, today I did like some overgear work with a hard swim. Tomorrow is a hard track session and like an easy swim. Friday is, uh, like a longer ride and a harder open water swim, they say. Saturday is my brick, so a hard, uh, bike, hard run, and then easier swim in the afternoon. My coach is nice to me. And then, um, Sunday I either ride long or I do some steady efforts in my long ride. And then in the afternoon it's just an hour easy run. So that's generally how my mix works.

Are you spending, uh, much difference between indoor and outdoor training, or the majority of the time on the TT bike are you outdoor, or is it you're only indoor for the weather, uh, changes?

Yeah, I'm only indoor generally when the weather doesn't let me go outside, but I also like to do some sessions inside. I think the trainer just lets you I mean, just lets you get like a harder effort and you can be more consistent throughout the whole block. I mean, sometimes when it's undulating, you can't get an effort as hard or you get a sprint on a downhill and then that sprint's kind of useless. So yeah, sometimes I think riding inside, I get more out of my riding than what I do outside. Um, but yeah, it just depends on what type of thing you're looking for.

I just love hearing the pro split breakdowns and the slight variations in the weeks. It's just so fascinating to see how you break it up. Um, so one of the key sessions is probably that Saturday brick day. What, what does that look like intensity-wise, volume-wise, the bike and the run?

Um, yeah, so I mean, going off your Saturday, I'm doing, um, 5 minutes, you'd say, upper threshold, and then going to 10 minutes more at my race wattage. And I do that, um, 6 times through. And then, um, this week I'm not doing like a harder run off the bike, you say, but I'm doing an hour at 4 minutes 30. So just a steady run off a hard, um, a hard ride. But sometimes I'm doing, I don't know, 12 one-heyas off a session like that, or it just depends on what, well, or what sports, I suppose.

Yeah.

Are you doing mini sessions, Natalie, where you're actually running, uh, off the bike at your half marathon, uh, 70.3 pace around that 3:40, 3:35? Range, are you doing many of those sessions as a continuous run without the intervals?

Yeah, so I actually love doing those sessions. I feel like when I do a session and I really excel that session, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to go. We do normally like 20-minute sort of blocks, so it could be 20 minutes at, um, 4 minutes, then 20 minutes at 3:50, then 20 minutes at 3:40. And if I can do that, I know that I'm in, yep, really good shape. Um, so yeah. We do that quite often actually, and lately we've been integrating, um, for the custom kind of from what I saw Kat Matthews do, I wanted to try and integrate some more 20-minute sort of blocks of work at like pace at actual half marathon pace, just to get used to running fast for a longer period of time. Um, yeah, it's getting, I think you can probably know the run's getting harder and harder. Um, yeah. So yeah, if you can't be, now you have to run 3:40s, 3:45s to get anywhere near the podium.

Yep. Yeah, geez, that's an epic breakdown. What's the, you know, what's been the change training to wattage so much and being a time trial rider? Were you really riding as much to wattage when you were doing your short course stuff? And yeah, how's that different now?

Yeah, I feel like really interesting actually that we don't in short course, we actually don't really ride to wattage. It's more like Go steady or go solid, or, you know, and I think that's, that's where it happens with the mind. It's like, well, I don't feel that good today. Well, what's my steady? You know, is that a 4 out of 10 today? Is that a 6 out of 10 today? So I think you can kind of take the easy approach in some way or another if you're not feeling great. So I actually enjoy now the fact that I can have my training eaps and there's wattages there because I know what I need to do on that day. And you have a focus for the whole session rather than kind of just having a bit of a guess, I suppose. So yeah, I'm actually really enjoying that part of, I suppose that's why you can do a lot of stuff by yourself because you have the work in front of you and you don't need other people around you to execute that because you have the bike in front of you and you know what you need to do.

Do you like that accountability of the power meter that you might feel like you are putting in here and you're feeling like you're riding 8 or 9 out of 10, you look down and you're actually riding 6? Out of 10. Um, do you like that accountability where it's really forcing you to concentrate more? Is that something that's been a big game changer from, from short course training where it's, you know, bunch riding and you're trying to hold the wheel and you're trying to sit in the pack and actually conserve? Whereas as a time trialist in a 70.3, you could be in a pace line, but you could also be on your own.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think I also like the other way where you think that you're pushing a 6 out of 10, then you look down your power meter and it says, oh, yep, fantastic watts today. That's a nice way of looking at it. Um, but yeah, I think we, we know what we're doing, right? So I, I like to, because I know if I have bad power and I know I'm hitting that power today, then I finish the session and be like, okay, tick the box, you know? That's what I'm, what I like. And the ranges aren't so big either, so they're quite, yeah, but maybe 5 watts, 5 to 10 watts, I suppose, range that I'm trying to hit in that sort of session. Um, but yeah, I mean, even when you're in a, in a line on, on race day, I think if your watts aren't what you've trained to, it doesn't, it doesn't matter, you know? Like if you're sitting at 20 meters back and you're in the race, who cares if you're 20 watts less than what you planned on pushing? But yeah, like you said, when you're out, you are out by yourself, it's good to know, okay, well in training I could put, I dunno, 230 watts for an hour, then I can know that I can do that on race day if I have to ride by myself, or I know my chain drops, I need to make up time. You know, you have the capability of, of doing that.

That's that racing instinct and mindset you've got, and we hope all the age groupers listening pay attention to that because we are so data focused and we talk about it all the time on the podcast that, you know, you train to power all the time, but if in the race there's enough people around, which it happens every 70.3 for age groupers, and especially Gold Coast, which we'll talk about with you later, Natalie, about the Race Ranger controversy, but You know, if you're getting the speed you want in the race, who cares about the wattage? You know, if, if you're getting what you want, then it's irrelevant. But it's a tool there to use if you are by yourself or if you need a marker to go off to race and get that average speed.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, speed is a huge factor in what we do because we're all chasing the best fuel mix, the best suits, the whatever else. So we might as well use the speed to our advantage. And yeah, like you said, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. The number doesn't matter at all, really. And the amount of times I can tell you that I've hit my race numbers in a race is probably, I don't know, 50/50 really, to be honest, like in my short space of time. But yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah.

How does your bike data look now that you're experiencing it more and seeing it in races and depending on the race, who's around you, uh, for your first, you know, 9 or 10, um, long distance races? How has your data looked compared to training and what have you noticed in race conditions?

Yeah, I mean, we've really tried to work hard on my bike. Um, and when I first started, um, my watts probably were higher because I was on such an old bike that I had to push so much harder to move me forward. So my watts have actually probably come down a little bit just because my setup is improved.

More efficient.

As a first. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, what we're training to, um, is what I want to hit in a race. And especially in these races in Australia, I'd like to think that I could be somewhere at the front of the race or be riding by myself like I did in Port Macquarie. So I need to know those numbers and what I can run off the bike, um, too. So yeah, they'll be really critical, um, in knowing, yeah, what, what we need to build on. Um, because yeah, like I said, racing is getting faster and harder, so we need to always be getting better, um, and getting, yeah, and getting stronger. So that's why we are doing this huge block of riding at the moment, because that's the only time I've got to really focus on my bike leading into this European season.

Are you doing much strength work in your, in your riding, uh, at threshold or at, or at tempo zone 2? Is there much specific stuff where you're saying, I need to get some leg strength on the bike in the TT position or sitting up on the TT bike? And because there's a lot of races around the world where you really are riding very undulating courses. Of course, there are flat races as well, but are you spending much time focusing on that, that strength and power on the bike, uh, in using the hills?

Yeah, so today, well, today, for example, I did 4 times 20 minutes overgear, um, and I did that outside, um, on an undulating road that we have, um, here at my house. So, um, yeah, we've been trying to work. I mean, from when I started to what I'm doing now, my watts have improved about 25 watts from my overgear. So It's definitely showing that consistency week by week has really helped me, um, build strength on the bike. And I think it's also when you are doing training rides, um, to ride a bit of a bigger gear, um, to do on a strength ride or on a hillier course, um, to do your long rides on. Because yeah, there's so many courses over the world now that aren't flat. But that general strength, um, is so important for us to, yeah, to have a strong run off the bike and to also feel comfortable out on the bike.

I want to keep diving into, yeah, some more sessions. I just love hearing the, um, the specifics. Track Thursdays, what kind of run sessions are you doing on the track? How does that change up? What kind of speed are you running?

Um, I'm actually really happy with my run is at the moment. Um, we've been working on, I suppose, like some Piper speed sort of stuff. So a bit faster than what I would race at, um, for a 70.3. So it's kind of diving back into my roots. Short course. Um, so yeah, I've been doing kind of a mixture. Um, I suppose last week, for example, I did, um, like 1K, 2K, 3K, 2K, 1K, all on 1-minute sprints. And I did that at about 3:30 to 3:35 pace. Um, so yeah, I've been really enjoying it that my running is, um, coming back. I feel like I can be consistent through the whole session rather than just having a few good reps and then dying towards the end. So I think that was the biggest switch from coming from short course is I got to about 16K on a marathon and I was like, holy moly, I've still got 6K or 5K left to run. So yeah, I've been trying to really work on that back end and being consistent through my whole, um, sort of session. But yeah, we'll be doing sessions like that or be doing, I know it can range up to even 50K other track sessions. So yeah, there's been a big differential between, uh, weights are just depending on if I'm running for bike harder on Saturday, it's running, yeah, what influence what I do on a Thursday.

And any speed work? Sorry, any, any speed work in terms of, uh, 400s or, or something like that?

Yeah, so we do like a session, I suppose it's like 800 at like 2:38-ish, 2:40, and then we go into doing a 400 at that 1:15 pace. And then, um, we do that 5 or 6 times, uh, through. So yeah, we've been trying to really work, um, just the leg speed, I suppose, because that's what helps you run fast is keeping your legs, is that turning over. And I think, yeah, coming from short course, I do have that ability to turn my legs over quickly. So yeah, we've been trying to kick the steady work, the base work that I really need to run a really good half marathon, but also trying to use my lungs more, um, that I can run fast, so I need to run faster.

Yeah, that's great, uh, that you're really Uh, yeah, as you said, come from a short course background where you have got that good leg turnover, but it's sustaining that for a longer period of time, isn't it? Past the 10K, past the 8K, 5K mark. And, and have you found that that's really added to the load, uh, to your legs? And you mentioned you had a little bit of a niggle with your knee. Is that, is that kind of impacted a little bit from maybe some, some, uh, too much leg speed or just the sheer volume of your running? Is that How has that injury come about and, uh, is it related to running?

No, so I actually got my, my, I pinched my fat pad in my knee. Um, and basically the fat pad is just a bunch of nerves in your knee. So it was really, really painful. And I actually did that because I changed saddles, um, when I was over in Europe and I put my bike saddle too low. So you can imagine every rotation and my bike saddle being too low, it's just literally just pitching the fat pad in my knee and then, um, I was racing in Europe, um, and I was doing European Champs, and about 19K, my knee just went. It said, I've had enough. And then from that point onwards, I couldn't walk. And that just took, unfortunately, 10 weeks to find the right doctor to give me the answers to what it, what it was. But in saying that, I think coming back from that injury made me so much stronger because I got in the pool and I did swim about 30 kilometers a week. I was in the gym every day trying to do my rehabilitation exercises. So coming back to running was a really easy return. It actually felt easier than having, having 10 weeks off running felt easier than having 2 weeks off running in my, which is crazy to think. I just came back, came back so naturally. And then I think that showed in my results towards the end of last year that I just kept building momentum. And I had one of my best runs of my year actually in my last race of the year coming off. Yeah, not much running, but doing that, I think, heck, maybe come into this year quite fresh and I started the season running faster than what I was running. Yeah. Starting, starting last year. So yeah, it really shows that maybe just having that time off to, it wasn't, I didn't want to have time off, but I think it actually kind of helped me to just take a step back and, um, rebuild myself and get stronger in areas, areas that were my, were my weakness. Um, so yeah.

Such an important lesson for all the age groupers. We always say that triathlon is so hard to train for cuz you train for 3 sports at once and so often this happens where where someone gets a running injury, but they can still swim or ride, and they, they're really disappointed. And we say, hey, it's the, it's the first chance you've gotten just to focus on swimming and cycling and not have to be exhausted from running as well. And, and it's amazing how so often this story happens where a little bit of time off running, obviously if it's super extended, it's, it's frustrating. People come back and get their running legs really quickly. And it's a bit of a kind of, um, it's been a bit of an age-old question where, you know, some people have the theory of should you just focus on a certain discipline for a few blocks, uh, and, and have the other one, one other discipline like running quieter, and that forced rest allows you to come back faster. It's really hard to know, and, and most people aren't willing to risk that. Um, but for you to come back firing off that break and, and be running so well is, is unreal. I mean, would you consider that again? Were you, were you ever— that's pretty rogue training, training, uh, attempt.

I would not.

Yeah, just don't want to risk it.

No, I mean, someone said to me, that was, that was the last time you were injured and that was 2014. So I've had 11 years of consistent running, you know, so that's huge. So maybe to have that time off, yeah, like I said, it was just, it was maybe a blessing in disguise. I don't know. But yeah, it's really helped me to just, I think even just the small, all those annoying exercises your physio tells you to do and you don't want to do. That's what I was doing that whole time through my rehab. And I think it just, yeah. Made me so much stronger in my running mechanisms. And yeah, been still trying to incorporate a lot of that now, even though my knee's perfect. Um, just because I know it's helped me, um, come back stronger.

We are strange creatures, aren't we? We only do rehab when we're injured, and we're— whereas we should be actually doing it all the time. And, and that's kind of a conundrum, isn't it? Uh, you will stay uninjured if you actually focus on being stronger through all the off the bike, out of the pool, and off the, off the running shoes, uh, things. But we don't do that until we're actually injured, and then we, then we focus back on it. So, so, you know, for every negative outcome with the injury with your fat pad, there's so many positive things you've learned from it, isn't it? It's, it's just an amazing, uh, cycle. I've, I believe that, you know, things are meant to happen for a reason. You're probably a better athlete because of that injury.

Yeah, 100%. I only missed one race, so it wasn't like I was missing a huge part of my my season. So even at the time I was like, I just wanna get back out there, people are racing around me and whatever else. I think, like you said, I learned so much about myself and the maturity that I've got as an older athlete now, um, to, to listen to my body and know what's right for me and to not rush. Even though I wanted to, after 2 weeks you're like trying to get back up and running and stuff. I knew that, yeah, I had to do what you have to do. It's like, it's to start with walk runs and then get back into normal running. So yeah, it's been a, yeah, a great phase really to just learn a bit more about myself.

And so no niggles now, you're back up to how many kilometers per week? You said 4 to 4.5 hours a round of running. How many Ks is that?

So generally it runs, well, I say about 55 to 65 per week, I would say roughly. Um, just depending on, like I said, if we do like a longer sort of run session, um, that week or the run off the bike is Shorter or longer kind of depends on how my running is, but yeah, generally, so it's around that 60 kilometer mark. Yeah.

Amazing. And so I wanted to jump to nutrition, uh, and the changes in that because, um, you had an experience at Melbourne 70.3. I can't remember what year that was where you were leading the whole race and just really faded in that last kilometer and you kind of put that down to maybe a nutrition mistake, just not used to the distance. Is that correct? And, and yeah, what are the changes you make now?

It is very correct. Um, coming from short course again, um, we don't really have time to drink. It's not a, you have a bottle on your bike, but I think half the time I've had 2 sips because you're so busy trying to focus on the next corner and athletes around you and blah, blah, blah. So I learned the hard way in Melbourne that, um, you do need to have gels. You do need to drink. Um, because yeah, I was leading the race until 20 kilometers and then I got cast because in Melbourne, Sonia Prankteri, I think I maybe had 1 or 2 gels maybe, and no gels running. So by the time I got to that, I was depleted. As I crossed the line, I just basically collapsed because my body just had absolutely no more, and I was probably severely dehydrated. Um, also, so yeah, I really learned that, um, even in what I'm doing now in training is to basically reciprocate what I'm doing on race day. Um, and yeah, try and get a similar amount of carbs in on my high-quality sessions. And I've learnt to run with gels, um, on runs that I probably never would've run with gels on before. Cause I've realized even having that 30 grams of carbs can really uplift you, um, towards the back end of a session. And it's not even about the session itself really, it's about how you can recover for the next session that day and the days after. So. Um, that's been a really important part of my, my learning also is how to fuel myself across this whole week of training.

It's pretty impressive that you could get through a 4-hour Half Ironman on such minimal fuel. It is, it is very impressive and you're very well fat adapted, obviously. Um, but, but what a diff— what a different athlete you are. And you know this now, and, and that's the thing we want to get across to the listeners. The age groupers is it is crucial. It's like the extra leg in the race. If you can be a great swimmer, rider, and runner, but you will eventually come to a grinding halt, won't you? If you don't give yourself the nutrition required to actually finish.

Yeah, I mean, it's like on a long ride, right? Once you, once you've bonked, there's basically no coming back, really, you know? That's basically what happened to me in a lot of my semi-pro triathlons. So I think even more so than having a heavy gels is probably drinking. I think you realize how much more ability you have to run off the bike when you've had fluid. Um, and yeah, I think my thing too is like when you see someone in front of you drink, have a drink, you know, like it's a good sign that people around you are doing it. Yeah, exactly. And to have aid stations around you, um, there's also been more aid stations on the course than when I had a problem in short course series. Every time I run past aid station, even if it's just a small cup of water, you know, just to keep reminding myself to, to have something. And, um, so it's kind of set timers for myself in, in racing and in training that, okay, every hour I'm going to stop and have something to eat. And every 30 minutes into the half marathon now I have a gel. So it's like just reminding myself through, through time, I suppose.

Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's almost like a lot of age groupers will be smiling, listening, saying, welcome to the club. You know, glad to hear a pro athlete did the same mistake that we all do. But it's no small thing. We, um, we know that the director sportives of the cycling teams, the pro cycling teams, they say that half their role in the, in the car behind the peloton is just saying, hey, eat something, drink something. Because when you focus on so many other things, you can easily forget it. And, and no one is immune to that. So it's, yeah, it's like that, that small tactic you're just saying. If you see someone else do it, it's a good reminder for yourself because you can easily accidentally go 45 minutes without either and you've, you've cooked yourself a little bit.

Yeah, 100%. And I think too, like, it's great that we're in society now that, that food and, um, nutrition in itself has become a bit of a forefront of triathlon. And I think that's That's really great for the sport because we are promoting, uh, healthy, healthy athletes and healthy mindset around the ability to have carbs and to have, to have more than what you probably think that you need. And I think, yeah, you can talk to a nutritionist or you can have support around you through your coach just to learn like what you actually need. Because, uh, yeah, it's been, it's been great to see that in the past few years that we are making a big reputation that, uh, You need to, you need to eat.

A question I always love to ask professional athletes is, and you must see what other athletes are doing in training because there's so much information that's out there with Strava or what, you know, you can see a lot of, and people are very happy to put their programs out there for others to see. Do you kind of have a sneaky look and see, oh, that person's doing that? And, but, you know, I know you've got your own program. I know you've got a coach who's really dedicated to giving you the best outcome. But do you have this feeling of that worked for that athlete? Is that something we should talk about? Is that something we should implement? Does that cross your conversation with your coach?

More around nutrition or around like a session or more performance-based?

Yeah, more performance-based training sessions, specific, maybe specific sessions that you see. Like we had Christian on a couple of weeks ago and he said, you know, I love doing 2400s. That's the session. That I know if I can do these at 58, 62 seconds per 100, I'm going to have a great race. And ironically, he went out and won Geelong, then he went out and won Oceanside and ran brilliantly. And he'd just done that session that morning, I think, that he told us. Is that— yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm, I'm thinking. When you see someone talk like that, is that something you think, oh, maybe I should try that? Or what's your viewpoint on what you see others doing?

Oh, I think it's like 50/50, to be honest. I mean, Um, I think I said to Mike at the start of the year, I spoke to my coach and said, when I looked at my training program for January, it was kind of similar to what we ended the year on last year. And I said, can we please, can we change it up? Probably for physical and for mentally, for me to like be motivated to, into training every day. And I think when I look at other people's training, it's kind of like they could be the best athlete they can be in training, you know, but then rock up on race day and have a terrible performance. So I think. And that's the mindset that we really have to have is like, just have to focus on what you are doing and what you know that you are capable of because it doesn't matter what Nantes people are posting because everyone knows we all have different power meters. We're all at different ages. We're all training on different environments, different, different weather conditions, whatever else. So yeah, I think it's really important that you just, you can have a look, sure, have a squiz, but just at the end of the day, like, remember that it comes just down to you on race day because You can't control what everyone else is doing, and you just have to believe that what you're doing is the best for you. Um, and I think that's, yeah, that's really important.

Such a good thing to remind. It's, yeah, you've got to, you've either got to compare apples with apples, you'd have to be in the exact same training environment, or you can't, you can't fully compare. But you've been around the top athletes in the world for the last 10 years, especially in short course. You mentioned before, you know, seeing Kat Matthews do those 20-minute efforts and trying to think about that. Have you, making this jump and, and, and meeting different level of athletes, um, who have been doing this for a while, are you, are you talking to any of them? Have you learned anything from them that you, you hadn't learned in your career so far?

Um, well, not really, to be honest. I think people kind of come at me for advice because I've been around the sport for such a long time now, which is crazy to think. It's been half my life, um, doing triathlon. But, um, I think I looked at what Chi was doing. I've been seeing a lot more people do these Um, I think I saw Solveig do a similar session the other day. She did 4 times 30 minutes for her Ironman training. And I think Lisa Pirtle did a similar session in her. So I think a lot of us are trying to do these longer sessions, um, to be, yeah, to know what to do on, on race day, because that's what, it's probably a little bit harder than what your race day effort is. Um, but it's just training your body to know what to do and to feel that sort of, that sort of maximal sort of pain. Um, levels, but I think we can all learn off each other. I think we're all posting now on social media that you kind of grab little snippets of what people kind of say, but don't take it. Don't take, don't take all of it. Um, because if you do, then you probably get lost in this big wide world of, of things. So, um, yeah, I think just little bits and pieces.

So really curious to know what's, what's the goals from here? You, you've, you're jumping around a bit between Team 100 and 70.3. Um, You have, you said to me explicitly that you've got no interest in Ironman. So is that, is that for good? Is that ever, or have you never say never? Uh, what's the career pathway from here?

Um, so yeah, my next race will be Western Sydney, um, 70.3. That's really close to home for me, so I'm really excited to get back out there. That was one of my first 70.3s in 2016, so excited to get back out on the racecourse. Um, I'll be racing hopefully some more single hundreds this year, but again, during another mixture of 70.3s, um, and I qualified for Nice, um, middle of last year, so I'd race at, uh, World Championships in Nice. Um, I probably aim to do, yeah, 9 or 10, I suppose, 70.3s, kind of similar to what I did, um, last year. Um, no Ironmans this year. Um, definitely in the future I would like to double maybe in some, but at the moment I'm just happy to watch my friends, uh, on the track is because it's hard enough just watching them for the whole day than actually competing myself. So, um, I think coming from, yeah, so it's been an amazing job so far and I think having this focus on 70.3 and, uh, performing so well, I just want to keep focusing on that and not have too much, too much going on. Um, and then Dublin Ironman, yeah, a bit later in my, in my career.

That's great. Great answer. And what, what are you thinking this year? What is your, your big the big race that stands out to you that you— I know you want to do well in every race, that's, that's the answer we should have for all our age groupers, but, but is there a race that you'd really like to do well in? Is it, is it Nice World Champs? Is it, uh, you know, 10 years since you did a Western Sydney, uh, when 2016? Is that something that really is important to you? Um, yeah, give us a brief insight into what your thought process is with because we'd like to tell athletes there's an A race and a lot of B races, and you can't have 6 A races in a season. As a pro, that's actually the opposite. You want to have every race as an A race, but, but we have to build towards something. Is it— is that how your mindset is?

Yeah, so I mean, I think people will probably know that coming off T100 Gold Coast, I was really disappointed in that result. So my big focus now is to come out firing, uh, in Western Sydney and to go and win that, because I know that that's what I did last year in some races here in Australia. So that was— that'd be my, my big goal, because I think, yeah, like I said, we all want to hold up a tape. Um, it's fantastic to do that. Um, and I think, yeah, okay, Cora was doing that year. Um, yeah, in a few weeks, a few weeks' time. Um, but yeah, the big goal obviously is to race the big guns, you could say, um, at Nice and have a really good result against the best athletes in the world, because I think we all want to race the best because that shows us where we're at. And I think just these, these results or these races that I'm going to do leading up to that will be great, sort of like stepping stones towards that in September.

So talk us through Gold Coast. What was your race review? What happened for you? How did it unfold? And what were you disappointed with specifically?

Um, yeah, I mean, there's obviously a lot of talk around um, the ocean, um, the waves. Um, I mean, I've been probably in some huge waves in my lifetime because we used to have to go into the beach where the beach was closed. So looking at those waves, I was like, oh, it doesn't raise me the slightest, but it was very, very choppy out in the water. So I was really happy actually just to have a great, a great swim, um, and to use my surf skills that I know, um, to the best of my ability. Um, I had a really good block of training in January to March, so I think and I raced in Abu Dhabi at the start of, uh, February. So I knew that, yeah, my training had been going well and you had some stuff to build on. Um, but just jumping on the bike on Gold Coast, I just knew that it— my legs just said, see you later. And it was so disappointing because the weekend before I had a great, like a 30-minute time trial on the bike and I knew what numbers I could push. I was like, okay, I'm in good shape. I feel really good. Hope that carries on to next weekend. And, um, yeah, I just honestly, I started the bike in 2nd out of T1 and another athlete passed me. And I think by the end of the bike I was in 12th place just because I honestly couldn't hold a wheel. I was just, I just couldn't, no matter how much I try, my legs just said not today. And, uh, unfortunately on a laps course, it probably shows it more than what it would on a normal 70.3 because you can kind of see where everyone is and every time you see them get a bit closer, it's a bit like, okay, I'm not really going anywhere, like blah blah blah. So, and I was on the bike, I was like, I don't even know if I'm going to finish today. And I thought to myself, just, just get off the bike and see how you run. You know, you don't know, maybe you have a terrible bike and then you feel great running. And I didn't feel great running either. And I honestly, I tried to drink all my carb drink on the bike. I tried to eat all the gels that I could just so I knew that I could have as much energy intake I could when I started, when I started running. And, um, we had 6 laps on the run course and I was just like, tick off, just keep ticking them off, you know. And, um, I knew that top 10 would qualify you for T100 Spain, so that right at the end I was like, that's just, make that your goal, you know. We're not where we want to be, but that's, we'll get you to the next race. Um, so yeah, I finished that race really disappointed because I felt like I couldn't show what we were doing. And, um, in hindsight, we kind of look back on the work, um, load, and I think that we probably worked too hard, um, too late into that block. And the days that I was meant to have easy, I basically had to do life things on those days, which made my days, easy days, turn into— I couldn't really just relax and enjoy that. So, um, Yeah, I think I kind of hit my taper too late, you know, but you kind of come off a taper and you feel like in this bit of a lull. And I think when I raced in T100 Allcross, I was still in that lull. I didn't come, I never came back out to feel fresh.

Mm-hmm.

So I think we've really learned that, um, and Nick, we need to, if I'm gonna have a huge training block, then I need to back off a little bit earlier because my body's just craving, um, to feel, to feel fresh again. So yeah, we definitely weren't slacking outta that race and hopefully, yeah. You can take that into the nutrition system.

It's always interesting, uh, we have a lot of examples of athletes who maybe don't get that right and then have a poor performance even though they're in great form. And then a couple of weeks later, they are absolutely flying. Have you, have you found that you're actually riding, riding quite well now?

I am, to be honest. And I said to my coach, I wish there was a race in 2 weeks after Gold Coast, because I just wanted to go back out there and prove to myself that I wasn't as bad as what I showcased on race day that day. So, um, yeah, unfortunately there was nothing on that I could really do. So, um, we just knuckled down back into training and, like I said, we're trying to learn, um, going into his next races into Western Sydney and beyond.

I love your mindset though, that, you know, you still were really cognizant of the fact that if I finish in the top 10 here, I've got a ticket to the next event. And A lot of the age groupers, if they're having a bad day, they just say, okay, that's it. This is a bad day. You still need to think about things, positive things that you can actually achieve, whether it's a qualification or, or, you know, extra 5 minutes faster than, than you, you could have if you just give, almost give up, um, on the day. And it's really great that you could say, okay, I'm not having the best day, but there's still some positive thing I can get out of this. So that's a really good message, I think, for, for all those people listening, and you know, that it doesn't happen that often, but you know, when you're in that position, it's really hard, isn't it, to, to think positively when you're having such a bad experience?

It honestly is, and I think we kind of look back, and then I had probably one bad race in 2025 where I felt exactly the same, and I said to my coach, well, it's funny because my bad day that way, bad day that day, I ran, I think maybe 4:20, I think, for my half marathon. I was terrible, terrible. And then I said in Gold Coast, well, I ran 4:03 or something. So like, it shows you that my baseline has got— on a bad day, my baseline has got so much better. So that's what we kind of took out of it. And, um, yeah, like I said, I give myself 48 hours to be miserable and whatever else. And then, like I said, I try and find what's next and get back into the next training block.

Last question on the Gold Coast, there was, um, the Race Ranger data did you dirty on social media where they just posted you know, the— we, we spoke about this, uh, on Instagram, but, um, just posted their data without a bit of context. But what's your thoughts on, on the Race Ranger and, and finding the, the, the 20-meter gap? And then that course especially was just so— just not conducive for the pros to have a smooth run. Yeah, overtaking each other in corners and, and the, the, the loop and, and everyone's quite close together. The, the time spent in the quote-unquote draft zone Um, is not representative of, of actual drafting effect. So yeah, what are your thoughts on all that?

Yeah, I mean, I had this discussion with a few other female pros about when this data came out because, um, the data comes— number data just comes out with no context. So the people that you see post on these social media posts haven't watched the race actually. They have no concept of the course, um, and actually have no idea how RaceRanger works. And for us as pro athletes, we actually have no idea. So they say to us, oh, um, We're going to take out certain sections of the course that we think, um, are where you're going to be bunching up or whatever, but we actually have no idea how long that section is going to be. So they might just take out the aid station where it says aid station starts, aid station finish, that might be the section. But we could still be in the red because we haven't even got back into line yet. And I think unfortunately for me, like I said before, I started the ride in 2nd place and I finished the ride in 12th or 13th. So I've had 10 or 11 athletes pass me on a course that had 64 speed bumps, I think it was, um, over 100 corners, uh, 3 U-turns per lap. So yeah, it's like crazy thing that people don't understand that because for me that takes every time an athlete passes me, that's another 30 seconds that we have to swatch back in, you know, get back into a, into a line and get back, get back sorted. And, um, for majority of the time I had a referee behind me because we have 4 referees on a 10 lap, uh, a 10 kilometer, um, course. But what I showed you on Instagram is the fact that Toowoonga Q100, we ride on the right-hand side of the road for safety. And for us, normally we ride on the left-hand side of the road. So a lot of people were swaying to the left-hand side of the road on corners. So the drafting time that got posted for me is because when I got blocked by an athlete because I didn't pass, because I got blocked, it just accumulates the time. So the one instance that I, that I've showed you, that's a minute 45 of drafty time because I got blocked, which I think is pretty unfair that that data comes out with no context. Yes. Because, and I said to the guys that kind of run Lace Ranger, I said, well, it's not fair, but they were like, well, we can't just take out one instant, like, you know, one incident that happens on the course.

Yeah.

But then I'm like, well then why post the data? Because there's people that are attacking me for being a cheat when I've done nothing wrong. And I think that comes back to like the mental health of athletes and, um, whatever else, because we're the ones that get the fire from the race, from, from people. And unfortunately that's just the, what social media has done to a lot of us. So yeah, I, I really hope that, yeah, it can be Showing more like the context of the race, especially XU100, because the courses are so different from a normal 70.3. Um, and I totally agree with 20 meters. Like, I think that makes the race a lot more fairer. And, but it does take time to get used to. And the fact that people don't realize that we have a, we have a flashing light in front of us and we have to make that instant decision to move, to move forward. And on a course like Gold Coast, when there is a lot of corners, you only have a certain short space of time to make that decision before the next corner, corner comes up. So yeah, I think I got really unfairly, um, played on that Strava. I just have to know deep down that I did, I did nothing wrong. It's just the fact that, yeah, it just the way that it shows on numbers. Yeah. On Strava.

It's, it's pretty irresponsible of them, I thought, to just post it without context. They just drop the numbers. They, They need to say that, hey, our data's not perfect. You have to take these into consideration or, or post that. And even, um, my, just the overall problem I think is that the reason the data is there or they're trying to post the data is to show athletes gaining an unfair advantage. And especially that clip you selected, you are in the zone, in the illegal draft zone, on your, out of the bars on your TT bike with your hand in the air kind of going, well, I can't get past here. That is not gaining an advantage from drafting and that's counted as accumulated time, you know? So.

It's—

the premise is there to stop gaining unfair advantage, and you're getting the opposite. You're actually on, on, off the hoods and, um, out of the aero position, getting slowed down inside that zone. So it's completely— it's just completely inaccurate, um, Race Ranger. So that was my thought process looking at that.

Yeah, unfortunately, I think, um, I think now they have tried to release the data. I mean, I don't— no one wants to be— no one's been shown as a cheater. No one wants— no one wants those numbers to come out as 7 or 8 minutes or whatever, you know, I think everyone's pretty tired to being more conscious of their decisions out on, out on racecourse. And I think that's actually been, been great. Cause I even know too, like sometimes when the light does flash red, you're like, well, I need to go because I know there's a referee behind me and I know the dire is coming out. So I need to make this decision to move. So I think that's been a great, a great part of it. But like you said, it's very hard when they just come out with this, this data that probably normal people wouldn't even look at, to be honest, because it's just literally on a T100 website normally. So if someone like Pro Tri News or whatever didn't post it, then people wouldn't even know about it. So yeah, I think there needs to be some more, um, more context around what comes out and even to athletes to know what they're taking out, um, or what they decide to remove would be also great for athletes because I think then we could also make more conscious decisions.

It would be, it would be different if you were, you know, riding behind Teleniv and you were second the whole race and it came out with 7 minutes of drafting data. Everyone would be going, oh, well, that was clearly it. But you weren't, well, you weren't having an enjoyable race anyway. And there's a lot of people coming past you and you're getting all this accumulated data. It wasn't ideal.

I can laugh about it now, but honestly, I was like, when the data came out, I was like, I wasn't holding anybody's wheel. I was going backwards at an awful rate. Yeah. Like, If you actually don't watch the race, or you watch the race. Yeah, if you watch the race and the coverage, you have to show like, I was literally, I lost minutes. Like, so yeah, it's, um, I think it's just also a great way to show like, when stuff like this comes out, like, before you make a comment or whatever, like, be mindful of what you're trying to talk about, or like, know some facts before people do make a comment. So I think, yeah, there is athletes behind, um, the comments that you are that you are making.

I'm glad you can laugh about it now, but it's, yeah, it's not, it's not something lighthearted. And, and I always say on this podcast, we're so grateful for the access that pro athletes give us and coming on podcasts and, and people doing vlogs and showing their numbers. And we don't want to just tear athletes down who are, who are being really vulnerable with, with your data and, and turning up on the start line. Um, just on the, on the run and the run pace, so you managed to hold a 4:03, uh, in Abu Dhabi. It was a 1:14. Um, was that, that's quite an anomaly for your pace. Is that what, what happened there?

Was that a short course or No, no, in Abu Dhabi, I think we ran 18K. So yeah, sometimes, you know, the course isn't very accurate, to be honest. So yeah, there's, you have to, um, yeah, very mindful of looking at, um, or probably going back to before because the times on the tracker sometimes are so far off what your actual race pace, um, was. So yeah, the track is sometimes quite fine to you because the race course is probably 2 or 3K.

Short. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Glad you cleared that up, Jordan. I had a big debate about, wow, this is such an improved time from Geelong to here. It's like, wow, I'd love to hear what she's doing in her running training.

An outlier. Something's off there. Cool. Okay, well, you know, thank you for, for all the information and for telling us everything. We absolutely love it. We know that the audience will love it. Kind of last question, you know, for you and your career and where you're at, what does, what does success look like for you for the next few years? What do you, what do you want to get out of this not just this year, but the years to come?

Oh, it's quite, it's hard to say, I think. But, um, I think if I can follow one and, um, to be winning races, especially in Australia, um, is something that I aim to do, um, when I got myself on the start line here. And I think too, yeah, I had that confidence that when I do stand on start lines in Europe, I also can, can do that, uh, also. And I think success probably is the fact that I'm probably building every, every year. I think that's, that's really important that I'm not just, not just stagnant, like, like, so my, my run times are getting better or I'm improving where I am on the bike, you know? So I think that's, that's a really important part of, uh, success for me that I am seeing results in training and I'm in racing. And yeah, hopefully I can, um, get a great result, uh, in Nice, uh, later this year and for future world championships.

Unbelievable. It's been awesome to watch you switch. That's what I said to you. It's, it's, it's gone so well, and, uh, it's been, yeah, it's been really impressive to watch. So congratulations on, on the turnaround and from where you came from and the last 5 and a half years. And, and we can't wait to watch you this year and, and your journey to, to the world champs. So thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing everything.

No, thank you for having me again. I really appreciate the chat.

That's it for this episode. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Thanks to Natalie, and we'll see you on the next one.