Racing Against Pros with a Full Time Job - Nick Locandro

I really think gravel racing is the future and I think we're definitely seeing that shift over the last six to 12 months. Now, even with the amount of events here in Australia, America has really pioneered gravel racing. If you look at America now, there's almost no road racing at all.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. A couple of weeks ago here in Australia, a new race called the Dirty Warning was held. It's an epic day of 246km, ranges from 270 to almost 300ks long, and it was in fact the longest one day race in the world for a long period. And this year came the first official edition of the of gravel racing. It stems from one of the most famous road races in Australia, the Melbourne to Warrnambool. Now the Melbourne to Warnie is one of the longest standing races in the world. And a Dirty Warnie, the Melbourne to Warrnambool, but for gravel riding. And it's a symptom of the fact that gravel riding is taking off in its popularity globally. Endurance athletes love a challenge, that's no secret. And the option of gravel racing provides exactly that with races between 8 to 12 hours long. So today on the podcast to talk all about cycling, gravel racing and more, we're joined by a guy with a few major gravel racing victories to his name already. He's a gun cyclist, former director of both men's and women's NRS professional racing teams, and most importantly, he's one of our cycling specialist coaches here at Tribello. So, Nick Lecandro, I know you've been itching to come on the podcast for a while. It's great to have finally have you on here. Welcome on.

Thanks, Jordy. Yeah, it probably goes to the top of the list in terms of accolades now, I think finally make it on the Trouble podcast.

When I said you could come on, you said, oh, that's it, I can retire now. So that's it.

Yeah, I haven't told Jared that yet, but good time.

There's nothing dad and I love more than chatting everything cycling, training and sport with you, Nick. So as a coach, you're going to jump in with our gratitude today and what's caught our attention and then we're going to get into a bit of your cycling history as well as gravel racing. So dad, welcome to you to the episode. I know you're probably a little bit nervous about how much shit Nick and I might talk when we're together, but start us off with gratitudes for the episode.

You can't be emphasising the safety issue of riding a bike. And when you're out on the road competing with space, on the bitumen, with cars and pedestrians, it's a real joy to go into the bush. And really, kangaroos are about the only thing that's going to be preventing you from having an enjoyable day. Or some trees, which a few of the Trivala athletes have had some bad encounters with lately. So, yeah, I'm really excited to talk all things gravel. Okay. My gratitude for today, I don't really like picking individuals out a lot, but I'm going to make an exception for this particular gratitude and I'm really grateful for the opportunity that a couple of our riders in particular had a weekend ago at the Melbourne 70.3 here in Australia. And one of those athletes made his pro debut, Calvin Amos. And I've got to say that, you know, it was really an exciting time for him and for Trivelo as a. As a coaching group, because we don't really push the elite level in our coaching. We are really all about age groupers and getting people to do their pbs, getting them to enjoy the process, the journey and getting them to perform better than they ever have before. But every now and then we get some talented athletes come through our ranks and these particular two athletes, one being Kelvin and one being Tom Page, both had some unbelievable results on the weekend. Kelvin, in his debut as a Pro, ended up 10th in the Pro race, really improved his swimming, pretty much rode solo whilst the pros were in a pack of the pros up the road were in a pack of six or seven and got off and ran really well and ran from. Got off 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th sort of position and ended up 10th. So ran really well. And that's our signature, isn't it? Getting off the bike and running. Running to your. To the standard that you want to run at. And so it was particularly encouraging to see such an outstanding performance. He wasn't overawed, he stuck to his plan. He really performed and executed the way someone with a lot more experience would be really pleased to do. So congratulations to him and I'm very grateful for the fact that he got that opportunity. And the second athlete was Tom Page, who's only a 21 year old, who's come from a rowing background and Nick knows him really well. Nick knows him as a youngster who was his footy coach and has grown up sort of watching his progress. He's a bit of a brute of a rower and he's turned his hand to triathlon. He's been doing it for literally five minutes and he actually won the overall race. Except for the pros, he was the fastest age grouper on the day and his time would have got him 14th in the pros, which was pretty incredible when he started, you know, back with the age group pack and his time on the bike was a solo ride. Being an age grouper, we didn't have a bunch to ride with. And he ended up riding a 204, which was within a minute of the pros group. You know, it was just an outstanding performance and he got off and ran as solid as you could expect. He only won overall by about 45 seconds. So he really hung in there and ran really well, even though he had some difficulties with some nutrition issues that he's been having. We're trying to work that out. But he really still managed to execute even though he's having difficulties. And that's a mark of a really. Someone who's really concentrating on how to limit your losses and still make the most out of the opportunity you've been given. So really grateful to see those two guys perform so well on the big stage and weren't overawed. And the encouraging thing was a lot of the other trivalo athletes on that day ran some of their pbs. And that is one thing we push a lot. And I'm really grateful to see so many of our guys run strongly through the field and remark at the end of the day, it was such a buzz to actually be passing people from halfway and never get passed the whole way, other than a trivelo person passing me. So it was really good to know that and I'm grateful that people are actually getting the message. And for all those non trivalo people out there who are thinking about how to execute any particular triathlon they're going to enter, being able to run strong at the back end of your RA is such a buzz. It's. It's such a good feeling. You feel like you've executed well, your confidence is high because you're holding the pace that you started with whilst everybody around you is slowing down. And that's a great way to finish a race. And so I'm really. My gratitude's all around that and I know I shouldn't be picking out people, but they're just two outstanding performances.

I absolutely love that. And I want to give a quick shout out to a guy that actually came up to us in Sydney. And if you listen to the last one of the last episodes, we mentioned the fact that we're going up to Celtic and he came up to us in the stadium and said, I knew you were going to be here because I listened to the podcast. I didn't know you'd be sitting two rows away from me. But he just came to say hey. And he said, I want to say that I'm a negative splitter. I negative split all my races. And I just love that because it just shows that people are listening and they're getting that message and running the back half strong. And I just wanted to give a shout out to all the negative splitters out there. We know you're out there, we know you're listening and we're stoked for you.

And very proud of you.

So. So that's that shout out. Nick, moving on to your gratitude, what are you grateful for today?

That was a great one. Jerry, obviously a pretty big fan of Tom Page myself, I take a bit of credit to bringing him. He's an under 16 footy player, so I've known him for a long time now and maybe a little bit scared that I brought him for Trivalo after his bike leg at Melbourne because I feel like he's going to overtake me very quickly. My gratitude. Jordy is my support network. I think it doesn't matter what level of athlete you are, how crucial it is. And sometimes you can be a recreational cyclist or someone just getting into triathletes, but you have family, friends, coaches, workplaces, and it's no different for me. I feel very grateful to have a very supportive wife. Mum and sister came up to races in Noosa with me, dietitians. Jerry is my coach, my workplace for being so flexible. People like Ryan Warren for strength programs and testing. So I think it's good to kind of sit back and reflect. And I really love people like Ash Barty and her mentality about having a support network. Even though, you know, in most cases we probably think something like tennis is an individual sport. The way that she really started to talk about we instead of I as an athlete. So very grateful for my support network around me.

That's a great point and I won't go into it too much, but, you know, someone like Nick Kyrgios has the opposite mentality. He refuses to get a coach and he does use a lot of the I language. And, you know, Ash Barty's been a lot more successful than him and you can't put it down to that. That's a whole nother topic, but it's a really great point. My gratitude is quite simply the World cup is on and I'm just so excited for it, I can't get enough of it. Unfortunately, the time zones are pretty average this World Cup. The games are at 9pm each night, which is awesome. And then there's a midnight game, a 3am game and a 6am game each night. So we'll have to miss the middle two. But anytime there's some world class sport on, whether it's the Olympics or World Champs or Tour de France or in this case World Cup, I just lap it up and can't get enough of it. So I'm absolutely stoked to once again not get much sleep for the next few weeks as I commit to these games. Moving on. Dad, what has caught your attention in the world of sport at the moment?

There's a lot going on, isn't there, with the World Cup? And look, I just want to briefly follow on what you just said and I want to use the World cup as an example to all marathon runners, cyclists, gravel riders, triathletes, swimmers, whatever your chosen sport is, the minute you resign yourself to not doing your best performance, the outcome will reflect that. And the example I'm going to use is the number one ranked team going into the World cup, probably two teams, France, the defending champions, and Argentina are the the number one teams going into this World cup and Saudi Arabia are ranked the lowest. And so of course Argentina played Saudi Arabia the other day and you know, the score could have been 10 nil. You know, that would have been the prediction. The difference between the two teams is that vast. And Argentina lost 2:1 to Saudi Arabia in the opening round of the tournament. And the message is you, you have to give yourself a chance. If you don't give yourself a chance, I just don't see the point in standing on the start line. And if you think that your competition is better than you, well, that's what's going to happen on the day. You don't know how well your opposition is going to perform or not perform on any given day. And so if you go in with the attitude that you're already second, then that is exactly what's going to happen. You just need to focus on what you can do well and you watch others around you capitulate if you're doing something really well. And I think that was the lesson that Saudi Arabia did. They weren't overawed by Argentina's. You know, the, the money difference for the players was something like, you know, $600 million difference between the amount of money that the Argentina players total to the Saudi Arabia squad. And if you let those factors influence your performance, they will influence your performance. And if you get overawed and let the opposition play and make a mockery of you, that's what's going to happen. But if you just stick to your own personal execution and do your role, do your job right, like every Saudi Arabia player did, you know, they were 1 nil down. They came back and won 2 1. It's not like they got a head start. They actually stuck to their task and outplayed, you know, the potential world champions. And I just think that's a great analogy for sport in general, that you must go into every event backing yourself and having a crack. And I must say, I watched Australia this morning and how disappointed I was at the lack of having a crack and letting France dominate. We had a great start. We scored the opening goal and then they could have beaten us 81 in the end and said it was only 4 1. But I was just so disappointed in the performance. The execution was. Was horrible. They just did not, you know, yell out at all. They. They were feeble in their response to everything and let. Let France dominate them. And, and, you know, I'd rather go down fighting and having a crack and taking the game on. And that's, that's, you know, that's kind of a little bit opposite to what I say in terms of execution in an ironman, but, you know, but he's still taking the race on. If you, if you set targets that you think you can achieve and try to aim for a little bit better on race day, that's taken the event on that same analogy. If you just sit back in your comfort zone and do something that's less than what you've been able to do in training, that to me, is not taking your event on. That's you hiding from the fact that you're too scared to have a crack. So there's a lot to learn in the gratitude that I'm trying to get across and really backing yourself in and having confidence in yourself that you can do the task because you're well prepared for it. So back yourself in. That's the message for this migration.

That's a great one. Nick, what's caught your attention?

What's caught my attention is riders entering grades that they aren't ready for. Or wanting to move up too quickly. So we've had a couple of Victorian road series races recently. Fredic and T Bright is coming up as well and it's something that I saw running Giant racing team as well. Having riders that are 17, 18 years old that might have only competed in C or B grade and only just finished with the peloton yet they're sending applications to want to be a part of a national road series team. And I think there's two really big parts to it and ultra racing in any level, any level. And one is having the physical ability to be in a certain grade and then one is also having the tactical now and race knowledge and bunch skills and there's both equally as crucial. And riders wanting to progress too quickly without actually learning to win races, I think just ends pretty badly and really missing a crucial step in their progression. I know this because I did it myself, was given guidance in the past to move up quickly and I think I pretty much went from C to A, pretty much skipping B completely. And it really took me a long time to develop my racecraft and I think also took a fair whack to my cycling mentality and confidence because I used to just get smashed all the time in agrate. I just wasn't ready for it. So I think that's my biggest thing I can pass on to young riders or really riders of any age is really making sure that you're winning or doing really well in multiple races in that grade before you even contemplate about moving up to the next grade.

Dad, I know you couldn't agree with that more. I mean, you often have athletes, they might be riding CLB grade and they comment something like I was too strong or I was too comfortable the whole time, or the wattage felt easy. And then you say, well, did you win? And they say, oh, no, no. Then something happened and you go, well, you can't move up until you've shown that and proven that you can. 1 I guess that's the lesson you're trying to get across, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely spot on. Nick, with what's caught your attention there? It is one of the things I've got my beam, my bonnet about. You know, we have a lot of athletes who are super powerful and have had no experience whatsoever. It's okay having strength and power on the bike or as a runner being a. You just need to know where your level in ability and your level in race tactics are. And the only way you can learn race tactics is having to work out the race. And if you do that in a grade and you're just the same level as everybody else, you're not going to get an opportunity to have a crack at attacking or jumping across a bunch. Whereas if you start in a lower grade, you get to work out how to win by using tactics and not sheer brute strength. Of course, you're probably more powerful than the other riders, but I guarantee some of the riders who've been in that grade for 20 years will still beat you because they have greater tactical. They're not as fitted, as powerful as you, but they're just way smarter. And that's where you learn your craft, is by watching others and having the opportunity to practice an attack or practice a breakaway, or practice the sprint, a late sprint, or practice a solo effort where you might get caught on the line and get done and realize that that's not the best thing for this particular race. So these are the things that you need to learn. It's almost like doing your time before you get to go to the big leagues and learning how to win. I don't mean that that's the key thing to everything, but learning how to tactically get yourself around a race where you are part of the race and not really a spectator is actually more enjoyable than going into an A grade level when you're just hanging on or you're actually not contributing to anything except for trying to hold wheels. And to me, that's the least amount of fun. As to why I race, I'd rather be in a race where I can actually participate and be an influence in the race, rather than a spectator, as I call it.

Absolutely brilliant. Really great way to think about things for any, like you said, Nick, any cyclist at any age. But I mean specifically thinking about young riders developing. But even if you're a masters athlete trying to move up in grades, what's got my attention is I went for what was supposed to be a long Endurance Zone 2 run last week, and we often talk about on the podcast, sticking to the right training zone, not going too hard on your easy day so that you can train well and properly and hard in your hard days. But on this run, it happened to be the best day in Melbourne for a couple of weeks. After a couple of weeks of crappy weather and rain, it was absolutely glorious. The sun was shining. I was training in the middle of the day when it was absolutely brilliant temperature and I was just having so much fun running that I just was pushing the pace and absolutely loving it. And I made a decision mid, mid Run, sorry, not race mid run. To just not worry about my pace, not really worry about my heart rate. Know that it was probably in the wrong zone. Know that I was definitely above zone two and I was happy to sacrifice that. And there's two parts to this. The first part is it was a calculated decision in that I knew my next couple of days weren't actually that hard. I had no key session coming up in the next two days. So I knew that if I did push a little bit hard, that's okay, it wasn't going to affect the week. But also a lot of people do comment that when they are sticking to a structured training program, it can potentially take the enjoyment out of the sport that you're doing. You're cycling, you're running, you're swimming because it feels like it's too structured. You don't have that freedom to go have fun with your mates when you want. And we always want to make some really big points in this, then we just don't think that's true. Firstly, there are times when you can go have fun and you can plant them into your structured training week and pick your days when you can go with your mates and go race each other. But also if you have the knowledge about your training week, you can make those calculated decisions. And even knowing that if I did have a key session coming up a couple of days later, I might have still made that decision to go a little bit harder, knowing I wasn't going to train as well.

But I was happy to do it.

Because of the nature of the day and I'd still be able to get through that key training session the next day. I didn't absolutely blow myself out, but I wasn't. But I was willing to do that knowing I was having fun at the time and knowing that I could still achieve the goal of a key session in the next couple of days. So a couple of little nuances there, but I think it's a really important point for people to remember that we don't want to take the enjoyment out of training. We want to keep that enjoyment there, but understand what the purpose of a structured training week is. And then knowing that we can make decisions otherwise to really enjoy ourselves. I don't know what you guys think about that as coaches, but that was my takeaway from enjoying myself on a run.

I think it's a really good point, George. I know I've been there myself. And I think when you are in a structured program and your a race might be something that's six months Away it can, at least for myself. I also get a bit mentally fatigued just with the structure of it. And that's where working with Jarrad with my own personal program is. There's occasions where I will jump on the mountain bike or the gravel bike for an endurance ride, although I might not be in zone two and it might be a little bit less or a little bit more. The mental gains that I get from something different at the time and obviously, as you said, it's dependent on where you are and you build for a race and the sessions. But the positive impacts of that I think can definitely outweigh, you know, maybe some of the negatives of pushing too hard and not being able to do, you know, a specific session in a couple of days time. I know doing that for me is really benefited me, you know, in the next four to six week block, for example, because I have had, you know, that mental release of doing something slightly different.

Absolutely. It's a really great point you both make and you know, that is, don't let anybody out there think that, you know, it's just regimented structure. You, you, you need to have the enjoyment factor. You know, I don't know if people are sick of me saying this, but you need to have a goal that's going to be improvement based. But the journey has to be fun. And the minute you take the fun out of it, you don't want to ride your bike or go for a run or go for a swim or whatever the sport you've chosen, the minute it's not enjoyable, you won't, you won't go out and do the required necessary training that's going to get you the outcome you need. And, and as we know in life, if you enjoy doing something, you know, how good is it to wake up and know that, oh, I can't wait for today, I'm going to do this. I've got a group of mates I'm going to go riding with, I'm going to go trail running with these guys or I'm going to go mountain biking over here on new trails that I haven't seen before. I'm looking forward to this and we want you to do that. There is scope in our program for that. And that is a really great point you make. That is the mental side that makes the, you know, you can do that once a week and get your socializing in. That's so important to enable you to have fun. And then the other days where, you know, you need to be concentrating on your numbers, you make sure. You're actually, you know, able to do that. And if that involves other people as well and they're able to fit into your program, then also do that. You know, we don't want people just being hermits and training, you know, solo for eight months coming into their next race. We actually don't want that. We want people to be in competition in races. And every time you're at a race, there's people around, you're having a chat. It's what you train for, you know, to get yourself to the. Whether it's a gran fondo or just a group Saturday training session that you're looking forward to each week, it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be a race. That's what keeps us going as a human. We've got this fun factor in our life, apart from our. Hopefully everybody enjoys their work. I know that's a, a touchy subject for a lot of people where work's just a means to an end, means to their recreation on the weekend. But you know, you will perform better at work if you actually enjoy it. And you know, you have some, some form of goal setting that gives you feedback of satisfaction. And everybody knows that you will feel better about things in life if things are going well and do those things that are going to make you happy, happiest and, and you know, don't be so strict that you are becoming the opposite to what we're trying to, trying to get people to experience.

Absolutely. So we want to spend some time talking about you, Nick, specifically and then we'll jump into some, some discussion about gravel racing as well. But I want to start with a typical question that we normally ask a guest at the start of an episode and that is what does cycling mean to you?

I was listening to the podcast you did with Sarah Klein recently and I really loved her respons response to this question. And for me there's no kind of simple answer on what it means to me.

It's.

It's a lot of things and I think it changes depending on where exactly I am in life at that stage. But it's big part of my life from a work perspective. So I work at Bike Sports and National Partnership Manager for Science and Sport and Santini Custom coaching with Trivalo as well. As you mentioned, I looked after Giant Racing team for the last four or five years. So it's been a big part of my life off the bike as well and then on it. I've been riding for six, seven, eight years now in a pretty Serious manner and training to a pretty high level and giving it a fair crack. But yeah, it's a. It's a mental release for me. It's great from a physical health aspect as well. Just an enjoyment, a social outlet. So it's, it's so many different things. And yeah, it's certainly a big, big part of my life and, you know, I think it will be for a fairly long time in the future as well.

Great answer. And let's just hone in a little bit on, on your history of your cycling careers thus far. Just give us a little brief glimpse of what got you started in cycling. You know, who was inspirational to you, why did you want to become a bike rider? And. And yeah, just give us a little bit of a journey on. Historic journey on how you got into it.

Yeah, so I actually came to cycling pretty late, so as a kid I played running. I played running, played cricket and did running as well and definitely enjoyed that at the time. But majority part of my sporting life has been playing footy. Afl. I can't really say football here to two soccer fans, can I? Afl. And I actually got into cycling when I watched a few friends do Ballarat Half Iron man and I thought it looked like a pretty big challenge. I'm someone that loves challenges, so. And said we should do this next year. So pretty much the next day we started training together. And this is probably where I laugh now, being a Tribalo coach, looking back, and I know we've. We've laughed about it as well. Looking back at my splits and my time doing Batharat Half Iron man compared to looking back, wishing I had the same guidance and knowledge as we pass under the Tribala athletes because I didn't have the greatest splits. I think compared to my time at Melbourne this year I did on the bike. I was 35, 40 minutes off what I did at Ballarat competing. I did a few runs off the bike, but not running off a triathlon bike. So I was bloody sore about 5ks into the run, wondering why definitely did it. Negative split. So nearly all the things that we teach the triathlon athletes to do, I did the opposite. But after going through that, I just absolutely loved the cycling part of it. Was a horrible swimmer, so doing more triathlons wasn't really an option for me because I like being pretty competitive. So still manage the next year playing football and trying to have a bit more of a crack at my cycling at that as well. And then kind of got to the end of that year and realized that it kind of Wasn't possible to manage the two at the level that I would want. And I'd been playing footy for probably eight to 10 years at that point. I've been really fortunate to win a couple of premierships and some great personal accolades as well. And when I was a bit younger, when I trained the Swan Districts in the Western Australian Football League, so I kind of felt like I got everything out of football that I could and was kind of ready for a new challenge. And for me, cycling kind of presented that someone coming into the sport and seeing how far that I could get in a new sport was so appealing to me, which is why I made the transition across at the end of that year. And I guess the rest is history in terms of being cycling for 6, 7, 8 years.

Interesting start to a sport and you must shake your head knowing you can pretty much ride 90k at just over two hours and you did two and a half hours on that day in Ballarat. You just must shake your head going, how is it possible to be a half hour better rider?

Yeah, well, I guess I said, it's funny now, comparing all the things that we teach at Triballo compared to me just kind of looking up on the Internet, kind of what I need to do and had no real idea at all. I didn't. Didn't ride the power on the bike leg, didn't have a training plan, a plan, a race plan. It was more going by feel, and I didn't really know exactly what going by feel even looked like as someone that wasn't experienced. So it was a really quick transition, I must admit, from a football player through to cycling. And I think going back to what's caught my attention and progressing through too quickly, it's something that I really experienced myself. So from finishing football in September, I was on an NRS team by May the next year. So I was riding most days of the week, bar Saturday, my last year of football. And then as soon as I finished in September, I got a coach and then was on an NRS team in, yeah, I think May. So I progressed from riding C grade. I think I raised one grade in B. And then I was racing a few A grade races. Not that I did anything outstanding by any means. I was basically hanging on to the pack. And then just from meeting a few people who I guess saw my commitment to training and the professionalism that I'd had from different sports that I was able to bring that through to cycling as well. So it gave me an opportunity. But yeah, looking back now, that progression was way too quick and probably really impacted the couple of years I had as an NRS rider because basically I was just there making up the numbers. I didn't really have any idea of racecraft, which is probably understandable given that I'd come from a sport or a different sport and came later. But I never experienced what it was like to be in a break or winning moves or anything like that. And even my coaching through that period was completely different to it is now. I was training 15, 20 hours a week around a full time job. Not much flexibility around my training. Kind of didn't really have that communication. It was kind of just here's a plan, you can kind of follow it if you'd like to. And I'm someone that follows things to a T. So I never really kind of questioned it, just followed it because I thought that that was right, you know, and we fast forward, I guess to now. I've been with Triballo, I think around three years now, and even though I've been training for five years doing 15, 20 hours a week and been at the NRS level, I'm a far superior rider than I am now to when I was riding nrs, you know, so coming under Trivalo is just being incredible. Jared often talks about you have a ceiling and when you're a really elite rider, if you can hold what your FTP is or increase one or two watts, we're having a huge celebration. And I know six months after being with Trivalo, I think I put 15 watts straight away onto my FTP as a pretty experienced cyclist. So it just shows the impact of, you know, having correct programming and guidance and different coaching.

It's such a great example. And I, I just really want to highlight this point and it's just another example where we've seen this payoff. Most people that would look at you now would go, he's an elite cyclist and he must have been that since his teenage years, you know, and obviously you were a very good athlete and you've got that talent, but a lot of people have talent and they don't get to where you've gotten. But the point I want to make is that you haven't had that experience in cycling years. You're probably still relatively fresh, but just with consistent training, commitment to a program and then commitment to a better program, you've turned yourself into literally an elite category cyclist. And I think for anyone out there, it can just take a few years of consistent hard work. And we point out these examples all the time of Trivalo athletes that get to their third or fourth year of consistent training and they're just completely totally transformed rider. And yeah, you don't have to have had that junior experience. You don't have to have been riding since you were 12 years old. You don't have to have been at this level for 10 plus years. It actually just takes a couple of years of serious structured training to your ability and you can get to that level. So I just think it's a great example.

I remember my first FTP test when I did, and I think it was 260 watts, you know, and as you said, probably people would look now and comparing it to, you know, my current cycling ability now, and really it was three or four years of consistent training. So I certainly didn't start off, you know, like some genetic freak like Tadej Podrikar or anything like that. And it really has just been not only consistency, because I think you can be consistent. Like I was that when I first started seriously getting into cycling and I said I didn't have the knowledge of the sport and what I should be doing and shouldn't be doing. So. And when you're going to someone that's giving you advice, when you don't know, otherwise you just follow it. So I was consistent, but probably not doing. I think my progress probably would have been even quicker had I been with Trivalo earlier. And, you know, it's, you know, the same as we talked about my first triathlon. You know, there's a lot of athletes that come on now that are probably like Tom, probably a very similar athlete to what I was when I first started. Yet comparing what he's been able to do in a year's time compared to a year's training for me, when I wasn't getting the right training and just online kind of just doing what I thought was right is really chalk and cheese. So consistency, yes, but consistency. Doing the right thing. And my thought process always has been you invest so much time, irrespective of whether you're a triathlete, five and a half hours or four hours, everyone's still putting in all the same time. It's just relative. But for me, I wish I put in so much time for Ballarat Half Iron man when I just started, I'd wish that I had had the proper training and invested a bit more in myself and getting the right coach because the results just would have been completely different.

That's a great story because your engine has, you know, your physiological makeup has been there. Nick, the Whole time. And it's not like all of a sudden you've become a great rider. You had the potential back when you were 16, 18, 20, same as Tom. The consistency is important. You make that point so well. But like the golfer, if you go consistently to the driving range and practice hooking, you're going to end up every time you hit a ball, hooking it. So, you know, you've got to be consistently doing the right things rather than things that are actually not going to help contribute you to becoming a better performer. And so your attention to detail is one of your biggest attributes. And, you know, understanding what the purpose of each session that you were getting and doing it to the best of your ability and getting the recovery that you weren't getting with the previous program. You were just basically riding yourself into the ground and, and that seems to be, would you agree, the biggest difference between what you were doing before and now?

Yeah, definitely. And I think when you're starting off, basically, yeah, I had some genetic attributes that meant, you know, that was certainly helpful to being an endurance athlete. But when you're doing 15 to 20 hours, irrespective of what you're doing, coming from zero base, you're always going to improve and get better, but you're only gonna, you're only gonna reach so far. And, you know, that's where I think the biggest difference has been. When I first started with Trobello, I was actually doing less time quite significantly, probably five, six, seven hours less. Yet I improved so quickly. And that wasn't just across, you know, my 20 minute test, that was nearly across the board in every single time split. And it was just simply because I was doing the right training. And I think that's potentially where a lot of people get caught out when they're first coming into the sport, is when you're not doing any specific training whatsoever and riding your bike, getting something, you're always going to improve, but that's only going to be to a point. And that's why, you know, I think really investing in yourself and getting a coach that really has the right program and, you know, has athletes that have shown signs of improvement over a long period of time. Time, it's worth that investment up front because not only will you improve quicker, but it's sustained improvement. You aren't just going to get to a point and then plateau.

Can you think of a key moment or moments, anything specific, whether it was after a really successful race or a successful FTP test, something that stood out to you in the process? Once you start with Trivelo, that something really clicked. I know that's kind of a hard, arbitrary question, but I'm just looking for a lesson that you've learned, that you've gone, I now want to pass that on to your athletes and say, you need to learn this, you need to understand this and this is going to help you become a better athlete.

Yeah, it's a good question, George. I think it almost goes back to investing in yourself and really putting in the time to finding the right coach. And that's going to be different for everyone. But I said for me, I'd been with coaches previously and done enormous amounts of work, 15, 20 hours a week, and then to move across to Trivalo and improve so quickly, even though at first I was quite probably a bit scared, to be honest, because I was doing so much less volume, but the structure and the sessions were right. So it's really just having confidence in that as well. So once you've invested the time, gone through the process to find the right coach is just trusting the process. And I have athletes now that I coach that from day one, just trust the process. Straight away, they're ticking all the boxes. They're asking questions about why am I doing this session? And that's something that I've been really big and something I hadn't done previously with other coaches. And when I started with Jared and would get sessions asking, why am I doing this session? What is it improving? And, you know, I could really see the benefits after Jared explaining to me about what sessions are improving, what and why, and relating to the specific racing I was doing, whether it was gravel racing or mountain bike race or a road race I targeted, it all made so much sense and it made it a lot easier for me to trust that process fully and tick every box. So be inquisitive up front with your coach. Ask questions, ask why you're doing that session, because if your coach can't give an answer back as to why it's going to help you, and that being related back to what your main goals are in cycling, that should probably start ringing some alarm bells for you.

Just following on that once you've selected what you think is the right coach and as you said, you've had a few goes at it, the relationship with the coach and it being a team, is that what's you've found a little bit different and the investment from the other side and now you're accountable to, to the outcome of the session, how's that? That's something you never Experienced from what you've told me previously, yes.

As I mentioned previously, I'd just been given a training plan and it was basically you can follow it or you don't follow it. And I didn't really have anyone giving, providing feedback on any of my high intensity sessions or kind of didn't really matter whether I was hitting my numbers or not hitting my numbers. And then moving to trivalo, just the amount of communication and commitment that I got back on the other end, I'm definitely someone that gives 110% to something. So to have that matched back was incredible. And obviously our relationship, Jared and I's relationship over the last three years has really gone from strength to strength. Jared would know probably more about how I'm feeling every day than my wife would because the communication is so strong and it has to be, you know, when you've got goals and you're unsure whether like you'd spoken about my decision to not ride in the dirty warny like Jared's there helping me make those decisions and he knows wasn't just the morning of that he knew what I felt like it was. He knew a week before that my stats through WHOOP were trending in the wrong direction. Yeah. So to have that, that level of communication and attention to detail and commitment back to me as an athlete, something I'd never experienced before and yeah, it's I think definitely improved me as an all around athlete as well.

Now I'm going to regret asking this question because I never want to give you a chance to get to pump yourself up and you're a humble guy but we do banter with each other privately. But I'll give you the floor. Nick, I want you to tell us your best race and your best racing experience and why that was so good to you and why you were so proud of that race. Good question.

George. I'd like to pick out multiples with races where it's been you and I at the end of a race and me maybe sometimes getting over the top of you, but I'll spare you that on this occasion.

I knew you're going to bring that up.

It's a great question because I think someone typically may mention a result where they won a race. For me, it would probably be unbound gravel race in America that I did this year and I think I got top 50. So it's not as if I won the race but for me and I think this has been a really big mind shift for me over the last couple of years and I remember the Last time that I rode in the national championships at Bunyong, I dropped my chain on lap four or five and I'd done an enormous amount of work to get to that point. So I was working a 9 to 5 job at that time. I was getting up at 4:30, be on the bike at 5, do two hours before work. I was using some annual leave to finish a little bit earlier each day. I would then do a couple of hours after work. So just invested so much time into this race to then drop a chain on the fifth lap. And it was interesting. I, I would tell people what happened and everyone's feedback was, oh, it's like so amazing the amount of work that you put in to get to that point. It wasn't, the result was irrelevant. No one cares that I lasted fifth lap up to five laps. No one would have cared if I finished. No one would have cared if I won. So for me, my mindset changed to the journey of it. And the three or three or so months that I put in to that point is, was 99% of that experience. The race was really 1%. So a lot of people walk away and go, oh, it was a disaster. I didn't finish. But that was really only 1% of the experience. And that's why Unbound was so amazing to me. I put in an enormous amount of work in terms of hours off the bike or my commitment off it, whether it be diet saunas, you know, making decisions to, you know, not do as many social activities. Yeah. So to go to that event and finish in the top 50 against so many amazing athletes. You know, it's hard when you say to finish top 50, but to give people some perspective about some of the guys that were there. There was probably 10 to 20 either current or ex World Tour riders there. So there were people like Ted King, who was Peter Sagan's lead out man back in the day. Ian Boswell, road for Sky, Lawrence Tandam, who's finished top 10 in the tour. Thomas Decker, top 10 at Liege, Nathan Haas, Lockie Morton, all these amazing riders. And then you've probably got another 30 to 50, maybe gravel pros or amazing mountain bikers that have won American national championships. So yeah, to finish 50, top 50 there, yeah, it was probably my most amazing, I guess, experience and event that I've done today. I know that was a bit long winded, but yeah, as I said, it wasn't something that was a I wanted or finished on the podium. I only finished in the top 50. But that is an experience for a three month period of the leading, all the training and then the race day experience. It was incredible.

It was a great journey. And for those listening, we really, really focused on that being your big, your big event and to travel to the US for that and in the middle of, in the middle of winter in Australia and try to prepare for that event. Did you? I know you and I have talked about post, the post of that event and you know, you and I were carrying on like we, you just won because it was, it was such an outstanding performance against that quality field in, you know, it's basically a world Ranke event. And, and that really gave you some confidence, didn't it, with the way you prepared and it highlighted the areas you now needed to work on and what was your mindset like after that and now the decisions you've made about your future as a gravel rider. Tell, tell, tell the listeners a little bit about that journey.

Yeah, it's a really good point, Jerry. I guess I'm someone, while I put in, I put in a lot of effort to be the best athlete that I can be. Probably never had the confidence in my own ability at that level or even at the National Road series level that I had the ability to influence a race. And then I guess my experience at Unbound and I was in the second group before I punctured and you know, I had riders like Thomas Decker in my group who said it was top 10 in liege bastard and I'm there riding next to him, gave me a lot of confidence after the race in my own ability. I guess I probably looked at Unbound as potentially kind of being my last big hurrah and then maybe stepping it back a bit and kind of taking cycling not quite as serious. But after that event I kind of got back and my wife, probably not that happy about it, but it went the other way. I was like, you know, I need to continue to give this a really big crack. And now I go into events and my mindset, irrespective of who is there, is that I can do really well and I can influence a race. And that has been such a big mind shift for me. And really taking the momentum of the, I guess the training and the commitment to training from that event is almost become my standard now rather than it being just what I would do for an A race. It's really been, this is how I train all the time, which is a massive commitment and it's not for everyone, you know, depending on their work and family. I don't have kids yet. I'M really fortunate to have a really flexible workplace, but I guess all the little things I do around that as well. Yeah, I guess has really taken my cycling to. To another level.

I want to touch on the gravel side of things. And what makes you so excited about it? Because while you are a road cyclist and a cycling coach, you are also, as we said, a gravel cyclist and a gravel cycling coach. So what do you love about gravel racing and where do you see it as a sport at the moment? It's just growing massively in popularity, especially over in the States.

Yeah. I've been saying for quite a number of years, George, that I really think gravel racing is the future and I think we're definitely seeing that shift with over the last six to 12 months now, even with the amount of events here in Australia, America has really pioneered gravel racing. If you look at America now, there's almost no road racing at all. Basically it's just their crit series and gravel racing. And mountain biking is still a big part over there as well. But I really see Australia following in a similar way to America, which is maybe a little bit sad that there won't be as much road racing now. But I think we can probably see it in the amount of races that are getting cancelled now because of low entries and then races like Dirty Warning, Thunderbolt, Adventure Ride, Dirty Pig and Whistle, all these gravel races popping up. And I think there's a few reasons for that. Jared mentioned it in the podcast. But safety being a main thing to go out on gravel roads where there's no cars takes, you know, a really big, the safety aspect out of riding on the road. And that's why a lot of people turn to zwift as well, just from the safety aspect. So that's definitely a big thing. A big thing. I think getting permits is becoming harder and harder for road road races. That's a lot easier for gravel racing. And I think just the enjoyment out of it. I think, and this is just my opinion, there's maybe not a tendency to do road racing as much for the competition. People's need for competitiveness, I think the competitiveness that people are getting from gravel riding is the sheer. You're ticking a box for doing a wild six, seven hour ride. And that's. People are getting the same feeling from that than they would from a race. So I think that's becoming a lot more appealing to people. So I really see it progressing in that manner. And I think road racing definitely won't be as prominent here in Australia. You can only look at the National Road Series and the teams that have folded over the last six months. So I think all the directions point that we're going to be in a similar kind of shape to America in the next few years, which for me I think is exciting because I love gravel racing. But I think the other thing is, is that unlike road racing where you can enter a road race if you get dropped, it's a pretty, pretty lonely, soul searching experience when you've got to do half a race by yourself. Where in gravel racing you might have 20 or 30 people that you know are there to really push themselves and go for a win, but the other half are just doing it for the adventure and for the challenge of actually competing distance. So it's really a sport that's probably more for the recreational cyclists and the elite, which I don't think road racing particularly has, which, which is another really big plus for gravel races as well.

We've seen a lot of that in Europe. I kind of look at Europe and the Gran Fondo or the sportif as they call it. So road cycling with categories and divisions and masters championships, some of them are still there. But the sportives, which is a gran fondo, such as the Paris Roubaix or Tour of Flanders or Liege, Bastogne, Liege, they're all available to the average punter to go and compete in as a challenge race. And sure there's guys doing these gran fondos who want to be in the first 10, they're at every race. But the other 18,000 who seem to line up for these events are doing it to race on the same course that the pros are going to do the next day. And I think Europe has taken a little bit of different tact. And gravel racing and mountain biking and cross bike is still huge in Europe. But the Gran fondo sportif is what's really taken off. And we follow America more than we, we follow Europe. And I think you're right, Nick. I think whatever the trend is in America, you can guarantee a year or two later that that's what's going to happen. In Australia and the sportifs, we don't have the population to fill all of the events. Whereas in Europe, you know, every single sportif on there, almost every Saturday before any of the spring classics or the road racing season for the UCI calendar, they're there every weekend and literally they're between 10 and 20,000 entries, you know, each weekend. And that's where all the cyclists are in Europe. And I think the gravel racing is going to be the same here if we can get, if we can get some more events happening like you've mentioned. And there are plenty on the calendar already that people will, you know, will use it as a day out and get their tents with their mates and have the barbecue afterwards. It's a real fun day and I just think it's going to have a future and we need to embrace it rather than avoid it.

Yeah, I think even, even domestically as well. Jared, you look at the Fred Ekin, they might have only had, I don't know, the weather wasn't great but 100 to 150 entries, the dirty warning had 350. So already we're seeing such a big, a big shift in just the participation for road compared to gravel as well. And I kind of feel like it's happened quite quickly too. It's only really been over a six to 12 month period. We've seen these events really starting to pop up yet the shift in participation towards these is, you know, has really happened quite quickly.

So Nick, to finish off, we will get you on the podcast again in the future, especially with the pro gravel racing circuit taking off a little bit and we had Dylan Johnson on the podcast earlier on the year who is a key part of that whole scene. So I'm sure we'll get you on next year to talk a lot about gravel racing specifically. But we do want to know for everyone that can follow your journey from now and when we get you back on, what are your key goals for next year? What are you aiming for now that you've had that mindset Shift.

So I'm going to have a crack at the road nationals again, which is my first time for a couple of years, which is the last time I tried was the experience I spoke about with dropping my chain on lap four or five. So I'm going to give that another crack. It's a race that also means a fair bit to me as well. My parents grew up. Sorry, my parents family home is on the nationals circuit so I spent a few years there as well and it was actually one of the last races that my. I actually competed in the Gran Fondo of it when I just started cycling and absolutely suffered around six laps I thought was absolutely impossible how someone would do 16. My dad watched me do that, which is the last cycling event that he saw me do before he passed away. So it's one that means a lot to me. So gonna have a crack at that and then we'll go back for another go at Unbound next year. There's a couple of races over there like Gravel Locos as well, which is kind of seen as the big preparation race. A lot of them. People that want to do well at Unbound will do Gravel Locos. So they're kind of the main goals for me next year, which is. Which is really exciting to get to head back to America again, especially with the experience under my belt. I think we'll definitely pay dividends to having a go a second time and then fortunate enough to be heading on the Belgium, a Belgian trip with Trivalo. So I'll have to try and get myself in some kind of form to make sure that you aren't doing too much damage to me in the races there.

Jordy, I know that the Quaromont up the Coremont next year in Belgium is your A race. Don't talk about Unbound or the road series. I know that that's your A race and that's what you're trying to peak for. So, dad, anything from you to finish off?

No. Look, I'm really excited for Nick's journey, and he's really made the commitment to really put everything into this year. From the minute he finished Unbound. That was the conversation we had. Let's have a real crack at seeing what you can do with another year under your belt. And I'm really excited. You cannot get a better, more dedicated athlete to coach. Nick is just the ultimate professional in every way. He prepares himself. His course, knowledge of the events, he's doing his research. He understands his numbers. The training sessions, he's just nailing them. He's staying in the ranges. His recovery is fantastic. He does the extra mile with the strength and conditioning and working hard there, and the altitude and the heat, the nutrition there is, you know, it's a great, great example of how to go about whether you're just an average Joe. You can actually get the most out of yourself if you're willing to put in a little bit of time in your chosen activity. He's a great example of how to go about things. The professionalism he shows is such a great attribute that Nick's got. So I'm no doubt that he will actually give it his best. And the result will be a really outstanding performance. And it doesn't necessarily be based around winning or losing. It's, you know, it's the journey that he's on this year, which has already been, you know, a fair bit of a blast so far. So I can't wait to see how his journey unfolds over the next six months and let's, let's look and see.

Nick, I hope you enjoyed your first time on the podcast. Many more to come. Thank you for joining us.

Can't wait. Jordy, thanks for having me. Thanks, Jared.

If you want to, if you are someone that's interested in Gravel Rider gravel racing, it is obvious that it's an area that's growing and we are willing to coach you through that and put you on a program that gets you specific for that. So make sure you inquire within. You can go to our website and inquire to get one on one coaching from us. That is it for this episode. Thank you very much for listening as always and we'll see you on the next one.