Should The Age Group Athlete Try The ‘Norwegian’ Method?

If you think like a professional, it could be your undoing. You need to pick the best things out of what the professionals do.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jarrett Donnelly. In today's episode, Lucy Charles shatters the Kona course record and blows us away with a shock win. Ironman arrivaling the PTO with a new racing schedule. And we dissect the Norwegian training method to pick out the parts that you can do in your own training as an age grouper and warn you of the parts you should avoid. We can learn a lot from the pros, but we shouldn't always copy the pros. So today we'll take you through all the do's and don'ts of their training methods and what you can take from it. Dad. Welcome back to another episode. Let's start with our normal segment. What are you grateful for?

Thanks, George. Yeah. One of the things that always gives me the most excitement and a real buzz is a new athlete who's finally made the decision to come to the dark side almost and get some structure and some real organized sessions around their passion, whether it's marathon running or triathlon or cycling. And the excitement you hear in their voice when they've actually made the commitment and they've joined, joined the Trivalo coaching group and they know now that they have got guidance and they are going to see some improvement and it's almost like relief. They've been stewing on this decision for, for, I don't know how long. And they've reached out and you can just hear it. I love that from. It's very exciting. It's like, you know, a new kid on the block.

It's great.

So that's my gratitude.

That's a great one. And it is. It is always interesting to watch how long people sit on the fence for or stew on it. And that's fair enough. It can be a big decision and sometimes it can be intimid, joining a coaching group or seeking some structure. And sometimes the fear is that, you know, you. You're having to suddenly make yourself accountable and a lot of us can avoid that accountability for a long time. So you go, fine, if I'm going to sign up, I know that's going to keep me accountable. And. And sometimes you avoid that. And people do tell us once they sign up that they say they've been sitting on this for three or six months or potentially one or two years maybe, listening to the podcast. And then the most common thing that they get we. That we hear is three to six months into the program, they go, oh, I. I wish I did this two years ago, you know, and it took a while to get there, to cross that line, but then you go, oh, far out. I wish you didn't sooner. So it's always funny to watch that, isn't it?

I think, look, as humans, we're pretty set in our ways, and we like routine. And doing something like this is complete change to what you're normally used to. There's the issue right there. We have anxiety about change as humans. We do. And whether we want to admit it enough, I do as well. And this is a huge change. And, you know, having someone looking at your training and you all of a sudden become accountable, that's massive for people. And, and for a lot of people, that's the best thing that's ever happened to them because now they're. They're actually happy that they know they're doing the right sessions and in the right zones and they're not overdoing it, not underdoing it. And then they start to think, oh, this is what I should have been doing in the first place. And the change isn't as bad. And once we get used to the new routine, you think back to what you were doing before and you think how crazy that was, where you wake up each day and you actually don't have any idea what you're going to do, except, I'm going to run. I've got no idea what the run entails, how long it's going to be, how hard it's going to be, or I'm going to ride. I don't know whether I'm zone, 2, 3, 4, or high intensity or what I'm doing, but I know I'm going to ride. And you know what a change to their attitude is, knowing that, you know, today's set. I know what I'm doing, I know what zones I should be in, and I know it's helping me. And I know that I've got people who know what they're doing guiding me along the way. And, you know, once they get through that initial phase, it's like, oh, wow, this is such a relief.

No, I totally agree. My gratitude is I have been off the bike for about four to five months, and I've been back on it for the last month just didn't have my bike with me and I am so grateful to be back on it. It is so much fun, having a lot of fun. Doing some epic rides again, getting as much heels in as possible. Yeah, just definitely missed getting the combination of, of more than just running in or swimming. So very grateful to have the bike back.

Isn't it amazing how something that you actually love doing and you haven't done it for a while and then you get back on it and you think, ah, far out. This is, this is actually enjoyable again. And some of the epic. You've done a climb the other day, it was a 90 minute climb. You know, there's not a lot of places you can do that without being in the Alps in France or Italy or, or wherever. But yeah, well done. I'm, I'm wrapped to see you on the bike again and it will complement your running, I've got no doubt.

Yeah, yeah. And we, we do talk about this a lot where we are just big believers in how much the running and cycling compliment each other. And for a lot of cyclists, they could probably benefit a little bit from maybe potentially introducing some running into their training. We can structure and nothing hard. Um, and yeah, any triathletes will know that benefit as well. So, yeah, and that, that 90k climb, like I could have had more fun. I was literally whooping and cheering anytime I'd come around a corner to a. A new good view, I'm in. And so there's just crazy views and a lot of locals are cheering you on up the hill because you hit some sections that were 10, 12, 14% and there was one truck that came past with a whole bunch of workers on the back and they're all cheering out at the side of the truck and giving me hours. I'm yelling back at them. So nothing better than that. Moving on to what's caught our attention. The biggest news last week, and it's been covered a lot in the triathlon world, but we want to talk about a really specific part of Lucy Charles Barkley's win at co owner that was epic for multiple reasons. She shattered the course record, which, you know, the times are getting faster and faster and it's. It's hard to see how they keep getting quicker. But she did it. But the big reason we, the big thing we want to point out, and it has been talked about, but we just really can't understate how amazing this is. It's the epitome of everything we talk about in this podcast is that this was her. She's come for second four times at this race that is just so mentally tough and challenging. And she finally, on her fifth attempt, wins it. And with every second place, the pressure builds more and more as to whether it's possible, whether she can actually win it or not. The doubt goes into her head and she put out a great video a couple of weeks before the race or the last week before the race about her preparation and she talks about that mental toll of always coming second and that, yeah, that, that doubt that does come in. And she had a bit of a different approach this year because she, her preparation had not been ideal and so she actually took the pressure off herself and she said exactly what we love to hear. She just said, I'm not worried about the result, I'm just giving my best performance. That's all I'm going to do. And as long as I execute my best performance, I can be proud of myself. If that results in a first or a second, she's kind of let go of that expectation and that is just brilliant. Strong mindset and turns out she, she'd done the work and it paid off on race day.

Yeah, it was. That documentary is worth going and revisiting for those who haven't seen it. And it was, I think it was a three or four month video that, that they just put together and it came out just before the race and it was perfect timing both from a social media point of view and for the person who is about to win the race. In hindsight it, it looks super impressive. And she had a lot of roadblocks put in her way along that journey. She was injured and ironically, I think that injury, and this is a hard one that might have contributed to her improving her swim, which is already world class. Her swim is unbelievably outstanding, it always has been. But now she gapped the field and that, I haven't seen that in many races, you know, at a professional level where one swimmer gaps the field. And at Kona, she, from that moment on, she was never out of first place. She won from start to finish. She was first out of the water, first off the bike and she wasn't the fastest runner, but she finished the race in front. So, you know, she basically led from start to finish. And that's the, the special part of this, this result is that mindset to be out there for so long and, and you know, doing everything solo. Whereas you know, on the bike, obviously the other riders have that advantage of having riders around them where someone can be on the front and you can be paced off someone that can be a disadvantage if you're riding above your level. But, but it's certainly, it is a help to have other people around you. And, and you know, the fact that she was reasonably injured, so much so that she couldn't run for a period, she concentrated more on her swimming and it paid dividends and I think that was a contributing factor to getting a head start on the field. And they were chasing her all day because she'd improved her swim by an extra 5% which meant that, you know, she was at the front by herself and, and they had to chase. And I think that was, you know, a really good outcome for her. I know that she, you know, she was being run down and, and I think there was nine minutes between her run timer. 2:58. I think 2:48 or 2:49 was, was the second runner's marathon pace time and that's. She only missed by three minutes of catching Lucy. But yeah, that doesn't matter. The race is, the race is 42.2, not 45. Yeah. Kilometers. So, you know, whoever finishes at the end of 42.2 is the winner. It doesn't matter how fast the person is coming behind you. That's the value of measuring your effort across the day. And, and so with, with not the, you know, the fastest run, but she still had enough lead to win by three or four minutes, which is still a significant victory. And yeah, I'm, I reckon it's fantastic and I'm like you, I think it's really the epitome of consistency and sticking out a task and, and making sure that you do everything you can and leave no stone unturned to get the outcome that you want. And if you do the best you can on the day and it's not good enough, then hats off to the other competitors, they're just better than you. But if you focus on the result and not actually how you get the result then, then that's obviously going to have a different outcome as well. So I think her mental approach to the race was so much better. I'm going to do these numbers and if someone's better than me, so be it. And look, we saw the year before where she got run down and it looked like she was going to actually come third or fourth or fifth and, and I was super impressed last year with her ability to stay. I think she stayed between 30 and 45 seconds ahead of the chasing runner. I can't remember who it was who was a really good runner and, and Lucy Kept that distance the same all the way to the finish and ended up coming second. She wasn't ever going to win that race, but to hang on for second was. She's a tough cookie. I'm impressed.

Yeah. And on that note, she had an injury that flared up in the final week as well. I don't know exactly what it was. I don't know if it's been confirmed it was something to do with her Achilles, but she was in a lot of pain in the marathon this year and so much so that right from.

The second day, yeah, she put a.

Photo up on her Instagram and you could see the swelling in the leg post race, which shows the damage she would have been doing in the race. But her mindset, her. Her laser focus and her mental toughness is just out of the, out of this world. And that comes through in all her video content when you. We've been watching her training for years because she's been putting it up and she leaves no stone unturned, which I think is the most impressive part of the preparation. I also think one thing that might have contributed to this is she's been relatively quiet this year. And we actually mentioned this in the podcast before the race how there's a lot of names out there and one name that just hadn't been talked about that much was what's Lucy Charles going to come out and do? Because she hasn't raced heaps this year, when she has raced, there hasn't been anything that impressive. She's been dealing with injury and she's kind of. You'd almost been keeping to herself and just been going about her business. But in the background, you know, the behind the scenes when the, when the content comes out, she's been working like an animal. And yeah, is the epitome of no stone unturned. And it's almost like because she was so laser focused on this race, she's just come out and blitzed all three legs. And normally, yeah, you're right, it's the. She's a gun at the swim and then she gets chased down the bike and run. But she was the strongest rider almost across, strongest athlete almost across all three disciplines, apart from just starting to lose a lead a little bit in the run. But I wouldn't say by any means she was getting mowed down. So. And the last point on the swim there, which I thought you point, the point you made was great, is it's almost like, you know, for a few years she was unmatched in the swim and then A lot of the women have been catching up to her and then there's been a few races where she's coming out with a pack of two, three or four. You know, some women are really upping their swim game and then she's come back in this period. She's, she's broken away again and gotten a lead on them. So absolutely epic. And I just, I can't get over the mental toughness too to come forth four times like that and the pressure you'd be feeling and for her to be strong enough to switch the mindset, worry about execution and then she's world champion.

I wanted to mention George back in the day when Mark Allen and Dave Scott. I think Dave. I think Mark Allen came fourth, third, second, I think four times before he won five. That's another example of someone who's, you know, determination and ability to concentrate and not give up and just keep turning up and, and changing things that they've done poorly previously and, and eventually, you know, winning 5k owners is. There's only a few people, him and Dave Scott who have contributed to that sort of style of domination. And you know, people think that Mark Allen, you know, so he's won those races but they don't even see the ones that he hasn't won. It's a bit like Peter Sagan in cycling where he, he won 200 and something World Tour races but he comes second also 200 times. So you know, if you keep knocking on the door and keep turning up and maintain the focus and the consistency in your training, it will eventually turn.

We talk about that so much and it's just. I love this other example of it. One other thing I just thought was mentioning which would be really interesting for next year and I want to talk about it from an age group perspective because we always want to look at what the pro is doing. That's the whole topic of this episode is the new Ironman formats. They've come out and revealed they've done this big social media reveal about the 2024 season and they've been forced to up their game because of the pto. Because the PTO races are great prize money, great races. All the pro athletes want to do it, great coverage. So Iron man, they're going to get left behind or change their format. That's what they've done and they've created a whole new point series. I There's 17 races over the year, 70.3s and Ironmans and pros will get points per race. Their top four races for the year will count towards their total points and you have to do two. It's 270.32 Ironmans I think which is pretty interesting to really force athletes to have that, that range of how half Ironman's Ironmans. I do like that it's a top four so athletes don't burn themselves out by trying to do too much. But it will be very interesting to see, you know, what races athletes pick. Trying, trying to be really strategic around peaking and trying to get good for four races over the year. Trying to see who's going to enter each race. That'll be really interesting because you go, well if there's a weaker field I'm going to get myself to South America or something and race there. Whereas if, if the Australian race is absolutely stacked, you know, you might not want to race there and or is the world championships your your A race goal? You don't really care about the Ironman points. You know, there's going to be so much at play next year and I think it makes every race on the calendar really important because there's going to be pros turning up to try and maximize their points and it's something like first place gets 10 points and then after that there's some sort of system around second down to 10th plus timing gaps to first place, that kind of thing. So very interesting. That combined with the PTO character makes for some great racing and I'm really looking forward to it. But I think from an age group of perspective be really good to learn to see how the coaches and the athletes plan next year and see how they approach their training blocks, their training structures, what they change. I think we're going to see a lot of innovation and potentially new potential training methods or race peaking methods coming out from this kind of format. So I think it's really progressive.

Yeah, you have to be quite flexible, don't you? And if, if finance is driving you then you're going to be very strategic in what races you select because if your livelihood is, is determined by the success you have in races then then you will to be doing your research on who's going to what races. And, and can I, can I get the points that I need to get the income that I'm striving for or is is just the competition you're after against putting yourself up against the best? And that's a bit of a dilemma for, for every professional triathlete. You know, you still have to make a living but you want to be peaking for the biggest races in the world. And the biggest races in the world have generally been, you know, at the Olympics is the Olympic distance race. At the World Championships, it's the half ironman and Kona and, you know, and you've got European championships now we've got the PTO where they've got their own versions of, you know, the Asian Championship, the USA Championship, the European Championship. And so, you know, the prestige of all these events, you can't be doing them all. So. So there's. There's a real dilemma being thrown out now that, that athletes. And it's a really good dilemma to be in, by the way. The more events there are for athletes, the more opportunity they are. And what's the difference there? Well, at the championship races, you would imagine that every one of the best triathletes in the world, male and female, are at that race. And so that's where you're going to get perspective of where you sit in the world. And that's how it should be. A world championship should be. Where do I sit? AM I the 35th best female triathlete or am I the best female triathlete? And if you go to, you know, all the races that go throughout the year and you win three or four of those races, but you come 35th at the world titles, that's going to tell you something about, you know, you either had a great day on those other days or the competition was really low. And, and so that's. That's going to be hard to see who really is in the form, isn't it? Because with so many races available and, you know, you could have potential of 30 or 40 winners over half Ironman and Ironman throughout the whole season, and you're not really getting a gauge as to who is actually dominating. And, you know, there will be some people, obviously, who will do that at the pointy end and they'll win their races, but they can't be at every race. So there'll be. There'll be other pro triathletes who are stepping up and getting the success, which is, I think, a fantastic thing, and will encourage younger triathletes to turn to triathlon as a potential career. We want the sport of triathlon and we'd love marathon running to be the same as it is as a cyclist. You know, there's. There's a lot of depth for cyclists to. To make a good income. Not a lot for marathon runners and not a lot for triathletes, although it is improving. So. So it's a good thing.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's the prize pool is, is that incentive, you know? Ironman announced a massive prize pool of 2 million. I think it's first, second, third, get 300 or 400,000 spread among them. The top 10 get paid out decently well. After that it's pretty thin pickings, but so be it. That's the nature of, of professional sport. But that combined with the PTO money, there's a lot of money in PTO as well. So across both organizations there, there is chances for athletes to make some coin. And we saw a lot this year where a lot of underdogs would come to races and, and dominate and beat some main guys like Lionel Sanders or, or Gustaf or Christian or of course both fields, men and women, because maybe these, these pros were overtraining, maybe they were doing too many races and then someone else would come in super fresh and, and have a really good day out and get some prize money for it. So yeah, it's pretty exciting. And last point on that note, in terms of popularity in cycling, just reminded me that Thibaut Pino's kind of on his last couple of races or maybe he's done his last race. And a great, some great footage came out of the, I think it was Lombardia where he comes up a climb and his, his hardcore ultra supporters were all waiting there and there was a hundred of them, all with flares and whistles and horns and he comes around and they just sur, they basically stop him riding and he's, he's just laughing because, and that's, that's what cycling is in Europe. It's just so passionate and it's almost like a soccer game or a footy game. It's just, it's even more so. And I just thought that was great to see and we love that passion.

Yeah, the frantic fans and literally they were pushing him up that 200 meter section and they were chanting songs and you know, he's, he's such a charismatic cyclist and he wears his heart on his sleeve. You can actually tell every time he rides whether he's actually hurting or happy. He's been one of the riders that I've loved to watch because his mental, his mindset is kind of dictating the outcome. Every time I see him race, I can say today Pino is on because he's got the right attitude. And other days you can see him throwing his head around and waving his arms and you can just tell it's going to be a bad day. And, and you know, that's what I love about him because he's, he tells you how he's feeling all the time on it, on his bike. It's great. It reminds me of the other French guy, which I can't think of his name, Thomas Vocler was similar and, and oh boy, was he an entertainer and you know you could. It was worth watching him just for the laugh.

Well, I think Chris Horner ripped into Thibaut on one of the Tour de France stages where he was in the breakaway a few times in his last hurrah and he was just riding like a bit like that, a bit reckless and a bit like an idiot. And the other guy on the breakaway just sat behind, didn't pull a turn till the top and then just sprinted past Pino. And Chris Horn is going, I know that's your personality, that's how you ride, but you really mess that one up by riding like that. You know, you just, you just carried this guy to the top of climb and he sprint around you. So. All right, let's get more into the topic of today and, and we're looking at, you know, triathletes and pros as a whole and you know, specifically Norwegian method has gained so much popularity. We want to talk about that from a triathlete perspective from the Norwegians we know, plus the athletics perspective from the Inger Britons. But it's almost the whole Norway Athletic Federation. You know, we've spoken to a couple of coaches on here. There's a lot of content out there about the ignorance dad, how he's kind of formulated this method a bit and the federation itself was putting so much money into the system and there's more Norway triathletes coming through that are really talented. Not just Gustav and Christian. There's more than just the igor Bridsons. The 19 year old kid just ran insane 1500 meter times at the back end of the diamond league. So as well as all the pros that are putting their content online, you know, we're seeing a lot, we're getting a lot of access to a range of data, a range of training styles and programs we want to look at. You know, what are they doing and what can emulate. But more, more specifically, what do we not need to copy and what do we want to stay away from? Because age groups have to train very different to to pros. And ironically on the Ironman post recently when they announced their big prize pool, I saw a comment of someone saying will the age groupers start getting prize money? Like is any of this going to Age groupers or just pros. And I personally could have disagreed with that comment more. I just don't think that these in a bad path. You know, age groupers aren't, aren't regulated, potentially aren't tested or definitely aren't tested. It just creates a whole bad stream for, you know, amateur people to start competing for prize money. I think that just leave that to the pros. Age groups are doing for the love of age groups, even though the age group times are getting insanely fast, needs to be left completely distinct. But we want to take some lessons here. So we're going to go through some, some key characteristics of some standout points of what are pro training programs doing? What are they doing different to what we need to be doing and what can we, what can we copy? So the very first, or before I go to the very first point, are there any starting comments you want to make about the difference between pro training program and the age group of training program?

Just on that final comment you're making with prize money for age group is it's always been an interesting one. We do have that sort of in cycling clubs a little bit where there's maybe $20 prize money for first in the, in the A grade, B grade, C grade, D grade. Don't underestimate how serious people are racing for the $20. I don't think the $20 means anything. I think it's just that I won that race in, in my club. So I think the money is, is not really the incentive, even though, I mean it's clearly not the incentive because most club prize pools are just covering the, the entry fee. So it's not about the money. It's about, it's about your performance. And I think that's where age groups should stay. And we don't want it to be like a pro event. It's. I think it's a personal performance. And whether you're running a marathon or a triathlon or a cycling race, you know, your outcome is determined by your performance, not by your finishing place. And if your performance is good enough, your finishing place will, will be adequate for what you're trying to achieve. And you know, take cycling for example. It's one of the rare sports where you could be the best dominated rider in that race and not even get on the podium because of tactics. Whereas as a marathon runner, it's generally the best runner or a half marathon runner, the best runner, the fittest person, the person who's well tapered and well trained will perform generally same as a Triathlon, mostly, the person who is well prepared will perform on the day. And it's not about tactics. And, you know, unless you're in the pro fields where it is about tactics, where there's, there's baselines and there's, you know, drafting limits and you're allowed to draft in the swim and you can, you know, as a runner, you can do the same as a draft. Lucy Charles Barclay's riding on her own compared to a group of six people have it easier behind. So they're all nuances, but generally the best person will win. So, so that's what we're trying to push here and, and the difference between what we're saying as a professional and as an amateur, keep that in mind. You are solely determining your outcome by your performance. And that is the beauty of being in a sport that you love so much, so passionate about, that you can't wait to improve yourself each day when you wake up and there's going to be days where you're exhausted, where you still think, I should train hard and, and that's what you shouldn't be doing. But these are all the things we're trying to get across is if you think like a professional, it could be your undoing. You need to pick the best things out of what the professionals do. Which is what we're trying to do here today is, is give you the key elements that will be of benefit to you and get rid of the other stuff that the pros have the time to do that you probably won't have. But if your sole focus is on improving your performance, then that should be what you should be measuring yourself by rather than your, your finishing place or time. I think the performance should outweigh that.

It's a great opening point because it almost makes the point that it's more enjoyable for age groupers because it's just performance and PB based and you can get so many wins where there's so much pressure on the pros to come a certain place to get prize money so they can fund their, their lifestyle. Yeah, that does make it tougher. That makes it, you know, it's really mentally taxing on the pro athletes. So, yeah, from an age group perspective, you get to soak up the wins like you're on the top podium and you've had plenty of conversations, I mean, even last week in the Melbourne Marathon of people saying to you, you know, I know I'm coming 617th in the marathon, but they've done an eight minute PB and they're more chuffed. And it feels like they're standing on the top step of the podium just from that PB performance. And that's what it's all about.

So I would, I would add, Jord, that, you know, some of the pros could take like we're trying to pick the eyes out of what the pros do to get the our age group or the improvement they want. But if the pros didn't focus so much on the outcome, they still would probably have better results. If they, if they concentrated on their performance, then the result will take care of itself. You've heard me say that since you were eight. If you, if you perform well in the actual moment, you know, concentrating on the moment, take a 3K cross country. It's broken down into the start, the middle and the finish. And if you're controlling yourself in that 3K as a, as a 12 year old little kid and not running flat out and like the other hundred cross country runners around you and then running through the field, you are already in the moment and the result will be whatever it is because you've actually performed and executed well. And if the pros had that approach, rather than I have to win this race to earn money so that I can keep being a professional, they're actually concentrating on the wrong thing. They need to concentrate on the performance being in the moment and the result will be whatever it is. And if it's not good enough, then you have to get back and do some more work to try and improve your performance. But it's both for pros and amateurs. I think that the sense of the difference there isn't that great. They should be thinking the same way. But how they go about that is what we're going to talk about.

Yeah, for sure. So the very first point and something that's become so wildly popular, kind of the lactate stuff came from the Norwegian camp almost. But it's the notion of regular testing and all athletes are doing it now and we absolutely want to copy this and we are, we are massive proponents of regular testing and that doesn't have to just limit itself to lactate testing and VO2 max tests in the lab. Although we've probably shifted our mindset on that a little bit too. We used to probably say, like it's not necessary, but you know, it's really helpful and we, if you want to do and you want to spend the money, we would advise it to. Now where we're saying if you really want to improve, probably that's one of the best Things you can do, you know, get as accurate data about yourself as possible. So look, it is an investment, it is money, but we think it's something that's definitely worth the money. But you don't have to do it to be able to test yourself regularly and, and improve. We field tests, FTP tests, regular time trials. We are absolutely proponents of this and think this is what all age groupers should be doing.

It's the next step though, for those people who don't have access to that. The testing regime that we already have in place is absolutely adequate. But the next level is to find out exactly where your zone 2 heart rate and power is on the bike and finding exactly just through lactate testing what your LT2 is. And that's your threshold. So when it comes to the coach telling you that I want you to ride nothing today above zone 2 and immediately I know from my lactate testing that my heart rate for that is 135 and my power is 225, I'm going to keep that in the forefront of my mind for that whole session. That's what I'm concentrating on, not letting my session go above those two numbers. And why is heart rate so important? Because you could be at a hot, temperate climate like you are in Bali, and 225 could actually be 155 beats per minute instead of 135 where you were tested in the lab. So that's why we need both. So 135 heart rate is really important in a hot, temperate climate compared to someone who's training in the winter. So I could be, you know, sitting on close to 225, 135 heart rate, heart rate beats per minute where I live. And if I, as soon as I go to Queensland, which is the northern part of Australia, I can't ride it above 180 for that 135 beats. So that's why that lab testing is really crucial. And I, I think that's the next step. And if you've got access to it, you should be getting yourself tested not as regularly as you do for your, your training blocks that you're doing in your program over a 16 week period, but do it at the start of the program and then try to do it towards the end of the program to see how much you've improved and where your numbers are, but you'll be knowing that anyway from the testing you've been doing in between. So it is really an important aspect of measuring how your performance is going and it will always Be determined by what's been happening in that period. Have you had a consistently good training period or have you been injured or have you been sick? And they're the things that you need to take into consideration. And that's why your performance will be either up, down, or the same. So, you know, expecting to improve just because you've, you're eight weeks down into a training program, you got to look at what you actually did in that, in that eight weeks before you could actually categorically say, well, I expect to improve this amount. And they're the things that people really need to take into consideration.

The next characteristic you see in a pro training program is high volume. No, they are just able to train 20, 25, 30 plus hours a week. And they're taking it to absolute extremes. And that is something that we have to understand. That's the pros lifestyle. You know, they are literally training, recovering. You know, it's eat, eat, sleep, train, or eat, train, sleep, whatever order that they're just doing that on repeat. And we see, you know, footage of the Norwegian training camps where they're literally doing that three times in the day and they're waking up, getting food in, doing their swim session, getting food in, sleeping, waking up, doing their bike session, eating, sleeping, waking up, doing their run session, you know, three times a day. That's. That is their lifestyle. And we just can't replicate the volume. You know, you might have some periods off where you aren't working, you're on holidays or something, and you want to increase the volume. But we've done podcast episodes on why that necessarily isn't the best idea. And yeah, this is something that we just go look, given majority of age group is lifestyles and working and family commitments. You don't want to try and replicate that. And more volume isn't necessarily better. There are so many good examples of training sessions that you could do to help yourself improve, and it doesn't just mean more volume.

Ironically, we've just had a training camp in the mountains in local Victoria, and there's a beautiful place called Bright where it's got three spectacular climbs that aren't like Europe, but they're Australia's version of Europe. We've got Falls Creek, we've got Mount Hawthorne, we've got Mount Buffalo. And they're legitimate, you know, one to an hour and a half in time for a climb, which, you know is right up there with some, some of the great climbs around the world. The elevation's not like Stelvio at 2,900 but you know, the maximum Hotham is around 17 or hundred meters. Taking a group of guys away for a training camp like that, the feeling and the excitement amongst the group is let's just train the house down, let's get as much volume as we possibly can and let's just ride all day for the whole three days. That sounds like a good plan to get your fitness going through the roof, but it's actually quite detrimental to what's going to happen in the next five days after that or the next two weeks where you're so exhausted that you actually can't put two and two together for, you know, for quite a long time. So, so, you know, some of the, the ways we go about that training camp is we just don't ride hard and long all day. And that's an example of what you're trying to say. We, we need to be very methodical in what we're trying to achieve if we've got more time to do some training. Most of the athletes we coach would know. My recommendation, based on the Trivello way that we go about things, is to add more volume to your warmup and cool down and leave the main set alone because that, that is hard enough. Doing the main set is hard enough. And whether that main set is zone two on a long endurance ride, that's the main set. Whether that main set is high intensity at VO2 at, you know, 30 minutes worth of 120% of your FTP or more, that's the main set. Don't add any more to it. And the warmup and cool down can be zone one top recovery, where you're just adding more time that will be less an impact on your overall fatigue than you think. So, so that's something you just don't go from eight hours a week to 24 hours the next week and then back to eight hours, that's going to be detrimental down the track. And you know, you'll be wanting to basically sleep for the next week because you're so exhausted. So that's examples of super high volume is not always going to be the best, but we know from a lot of the work we've done with our endurance athletes and we'll use Rachel, who was on the podcast, you know, a month ago from her Mont Blanc 200 and 180k run, ultra run, where, you know, she improved incredibly by getting her endurance base up. And, and that's kind of where people are getting a little bit confused. There is a point where too much is too much, but our Goal is to get our endurance as high as we can. So our aerobic fitness, our base fitness is huge. And that's the point you're trying to get here, is not to overdo that but to still have it as a component.

I was thinking about this recently, about the, the Saturday and Sunday kind of endurance weekend sessions a lot of triathletes do. And I feel like with the development of training and the more knowledge we have, you know, you see everyone. It's not rare for people to be just doing monster rides on a Saturday. Whether it's four, five, six plus, eight hours. Sometimes people get really excited and they'll go for 200k or 220k, especially with the emergency gravel riding. And I, I feel like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I want to know your opinion is, is that's become a lot more common and a lot more popular because everyone's seeing each other on Strava and way more than it was 5, 10, 15 years ago. Even among age groupers and the standard, the bar just keeps moving up and up and up. And there is a point I was thinking where it just gets a bit ridiculous because especially when your body's not used to it, you know, I know that if I jump into a four, four or five hour bunch ride when I'm not fit for it, I spend the next five to seven hours recovering, you know, and that's not what your Saturday is supposed to be. That's not what your training program is supposed to do to you where you literally I'm just eating and sleeping and lying my couch for the next five or six hours because I can't, I can't function, I can't do anything else. And so that's obviously when you're unfit. The more you get used to it, the more frequently you do it, the easier and better you recover. But definitely is a funny kind of phase we're going through now where it's people keep trying to one up each other, but that can't go forever because you'll cross that line. You'll be doing too much endurance.

Yeah, it's a really good point. I think the apps that we have available to us are really good. They're very positive and there was always the negative associated with it. And that's that one upmanship that you're talking about is such and such. My competition has done this. I need to go and match that or better it. And that's okay now and then, but that's not predominantly how your program should Be based. We do know, we've just said it. The fitter endurance you have, the better athlete you're going to be, whether you're a swimmer, rider, runner, mountain biker, you need to build that endurance. And that's something like Strava, where you can see exactly what people are doing, how many hours, how many elevation meters, what distances they're riding. You don't know what they've done unless you're looking at their last three months. They, they might have posted a 200k ride, but they might have started at 80k three months ago and they've progressed themselves to 200. And you just look at that one day and see 200k and that's your competition. And you're saying to yourself, well, if he's doing that or she's doing that, I need to do that as well. That's actually a mistake. You need to just progressively get yourself. And 200k might not be what you need. You're not the same athlete as that other person is. So 200k, you might need 140 to match that person because you've already got a great endurance engine you need to work on. Maybe your high intensity, short, sharp efforts, or your speed or your, or your zone two work. You know, there's so many things that you see from other people that are incentivizing you, motivating you, but they're actually not relevant to you. And understanding the difference is really important. And knowing that you have to progress to this stage rather than seeing someone and trying to match it, that's an error.

And the great example is Jakob Ingebridson, who will never do a long run more than 90 minutes or 20K, you know, and he just doesn't need to. And he could look at all the pros around him and just see some of the monster kilometers they're doing. And weekly volume is, is massive. But that Sunday durance run, he's not blowing that out of proportion just because, you know, Kelvin Kip's training program came out after that marathon world record. And he had a training block where he, he did over 200km per week for three weeks in a row. It was something like 600ks in three weeks. It was basically averaging 30ks a day plus of running just absolutely wild. And so again, it's very situation specific, but you can cross that line. And we've got to look at, you know, why is he doing that? Well, that the marathons, his event, you know, and you compare that to Jakob's 1500 or 5K event yeah, two very different approaches. So the next characteristic is training to specific intensities. And we, you kind of just covered this already and all the other points, but we're a big yes to step to having specific goals for the session and staying within the ranges of those goals. Whether it was the Zone 2 example you provided before, whether it's a VO2 max session where you know to be in that VO2 max zone, you have to be above potentially 105% for the effort, you know, that's just an example. Or if it's a sub threshold session or a zone three, four tempo session, you know what those ranges are. You know you're above that zone 2 threshold, but you're below that, that lactate threshold, that LT2. So if you haven't listened, if you're new here, you, you probably wouldn't have heard us talk about this. But if you. This is not your first podcast with us. We have talked about this in almost every single training program, session, podcast episode we've done. So it's, it's very simple. Every session needs a specific intensity goal and that's what we should be copying the pros about.

And look, it almost comes back to point one, isn't it? How do you know what is my intensity? Where is it? And the testing provides that opportunity to do this very point that you're talking about training and staying in the specific intensities. And if you're guessing, then you're getting this wrong and you think you might be doing a tempo or a zone 2 or a recovery or an endurance, and you're crossing, you're crossing between the two, and that's detrimental because we want to train. Exactly. We don't waste sessions. And if, if we're crossing across zones and we're not meant to be doing that, we're going to end up doing the same training day in, day out. And you don't have to be Einstein to understand that repeating the same thing day after day will result in you performing that way. So if you're going to train in zone 2 and 3 for your whole block of training, you'll on race day perform in zone two and three. And your ability to train above that is going to be very limited unless you've done some overload training in that period. As humans, we'll be very good at what we train at. So if you're a guy who does a lot of running at high speed work, when you come to do short, sharp efforts, you've done a lot of that, you know, in a race where someone surges, you'll be good at covering that. But if the race is a half marathon or a marathon and someone surges, that's actually not a requirement in that race. Unless you're an elite runner who's trying to, you know, win a world title as a, as an age group athlete, we don't want to be doing that. That's not something that's helpful in a race. So we want the training to be specific based on what the requirements of the race are, but also what our testing tells us. And that's, that's a hard one to get right. And, and you know, it's a very throwaway line. You know, I'm training in the right intensity. Well, are you and, and is this session helpful to the requirements of your race?

The next point is a pretty interesting one. And we see a lot of the pros, especially endurance triathletes or the endurance races, they're not doing as much super high VO2 work compared to probably what we would want to recommend for the age group athlete. And yes, this is one where we want to be a little bit different, you know, and there's a lot of talk about polarized or pyramidal training. And basically the concept is a lot of Zone 2 stuff, a lot of easy stuff, and then polarized is more at the top end that VO2 work. And the pyramidal is, is actually more kind of tempo, subthreshold work with just a tiny bit of top up VO2. And we definitely see within the Norwegian style of training that it is less high VO2 work than we would probably anticipate. They definitely have sections or times when they do go really hard. But for the age grouper, we kind of have a different approach and we go, well, when you've got limited hours in the week for a lot of age group athletes, they're, they are really good at endurance, they are quite good at zone two and they do a lot of that on repeat. They do a lot of zone two or zone three kind of work. They're missing that kind of top end. And so most of the times the prescription is, you know, you need more consistent, structured, high intensity V2 sessions in your week for a long period. You know, you need to be doing three, six months plus of this to really get that top end fitness. And that is a pretty key difference.

Over the decades that I've been involved, since I started doing intervals As a 10 year old in 1970, I've really seen the highs and lows, the ebbs and flows of this is better system than that system. And it's been quite a journey over those six decades that I've been competing and training. And as early as the 70s, you know, we were trailblazing as 10 year olds running 6 by 400 meter reps on the track on a Wednesday and on a Thursday we do 8 by 200 with a 20, 30 second float. And that was way advanced stuff. And we didn't do any endurance stuff. We just did this short burst training. And we were quite unbeatable as, as little, little athletes at that stage because all our events were 200, 400 or 800 and occasionally a 1500. So it was very specific to what we were doing. As we got older and more mature and a lot of the races got longer, that style of training was good for a period, but if we didn't do the longer running then we weren't actually improving the way the other runners were. So we had to change our mindset to a bit more reverse where it was 80, 20. Originally we were doing 80% of intensity and 20% of endurance. Now we had to swap it right around and then we had the zone 1, 2 and 3, 4 system. So rather than just having two zones, slow and hard, now you've got, you know, in between tempo and, and sub threshold and Then threshold and VO2 as well as, as recovery. So the ebbs and flows of, of how much you put into your high intensity has varied over the decades and, and where we're at now and from the, from the scientific research that is readily available out there, which is what we've gleaned over in the last three or four years and tried to take the best of, of what we've seen and we've experimented on ourselves, myself and yourself and then implemented into our athletes and the improvement rates for VO2 work for the everyday age grouper is phenomenal. That's just anecdotal evidence. And now there will be lots of examples of athletes who don't respond to that. I'm sure we could find them. Overwhelmingly the data that we've had is if we include this structure into their program, their performance is absolutely. And as you would have seen from our case study examples, the improvements we've got from the method of incorporating some very high intensity, the performances from our athletes have been unrivaled. If we use another method. And that's kind of exciting.

Yeah. So the next characteristic is kind of a little bit opposite to that, that theory and that is, you know, you see a lot of endurance athletes and especially Norwegians and just this lactate method in general, sticking to sub threshold work. So a lot of work below that LT2 where they're doing these sessions and then they're doing long stints, you know, long efforts where they lactate testing and not allowing themselves to go above that LT2 and keep the intensity lower and that might end up being in zone three or four tempo work or sub threshold work, however you want to label it. Everyone has slightly different labels for the same sort of things and we have to say that we believe so much in that style of training and we are huge proponents of that. But unfortunately you've got to pick your priorities and when you've got limited time in the week, you kind of can't really fit in two high intensity VO2 sessions, a sub threshold tempo session, enough zone 2 work and enough endurance work all within a week or two and, or a seven or 14 day cycle. So we have examples where when it's just cyclists or running programs, we are actually able to fit this in and it's so beneficial and we have our cyclists becoming really, really strong threshold riders, really, really strong time trialists because they're able to fit in a sub threshold style session into their week. And same with runners, you know, be able to do kind of half marathon tempo race pace sessions. And we see huge benefits from that. So that's something that if you can fit it in, is so good to copy what the pros do. But it's really hard for triathletes in a packed program when you really have to try and pick your priorities. For the most part, we will do, depending on the context of the program, we will really aim for that more high intensity stuff over this and then potentially getting more towards race day, we start to replace the VO2 work with this kind of race pace work. But again, whether it's zone three or zone four or race pace, it kind of depends on the intensity of the athlete, depends on where they're at their program. But yeah, this is a bit of a funny one to get right and we have to say that yeah, we're huge proponents of it, but it is hard to fit in a lot of people's program. Yeah.

And every athlete has different levels of experience and certainly the beginner athlete can't cope with all of the sessions that you've just thrown out there to, to the podcast world. And we really want to understand that and make sure that your experience as an athlete really does count for what load you can cope with. And, and having a really balanced program where you're trying to incorporate some good recovery, some good Zone 2 work, some really good high intensity work and the strength and endurance. And then if you've got that under control, then at various times add this zone three to four that's in between this in between training that is really beneficial. It's, it's not threshold and it's not zone two. It's that in between one that's not hard on your heart and lungs, but your legs feel like they're just aching the whole time. And it's, that is a game changer. And, and it's always hard to, to account for exactly the reason why. The improvement is. Is it a little bit of VO2, is it a little bit more strength and endurance, Is it a little bit more sub threshold work? I'm sure it's a combination of all those things, but if you can get that into your program, it will certainly be a game changer for you. And, and again, the load is important that you don't overdo it. We're not components of 20, 25 hours a week of training. That's, that's a pro level and above. But if you do have more time, then these are the sessions that we really advise our athletes who are really more focused on the pointy end of their, of their, of their sport to make time to do, if they can.

To finish off with some final key characteristics of pros. There's some examples we spoke about already, which is double or triple training days. And it's very situation specific, it's very specific to the experience of the athlete. But we definitely do double training days where we get a lot of triathletes to run off the bike. And that's a really key part of a triathlon training program is running off the bike multiple times a week. There are examples of, you know, two high intensity sessions in a row where you get an athlete to do VO2 work on the bike and then get off and run and do some VO2 work. And they're quite hard to get right because it's long volume, it's a lot of volume there. So you really need to make sure you're not overloading and doing too much VO2 work in the one day because you just won't be able to complete the session. There are examples of triple training days that the pros do where, like we said before, they're swimming, riding and running the same day. And in a minority of cases, triathletes can attempt that on maybe a weekend where they're trying to emulate A race day specific session. Once again, it probably isn't a popular part of an age group is training program. And again it is very situation specific but it has to be talked about some other key, key parts. Altitude training camps so popular with the pros. Again, if a age grouper can do it like, like we just had two of ride on the weekend, it's going to be helpful. But it's one of those extra things that is hard to get right. Same with heat training camps. It's becoming very popular among a lot of pro training groups and it just comes down to the situation in the person specifically where you go. It's that and also the protocols around that haven't actually come out yet in terms of what specifically the Norwegians doing. What specifically are these pro pros doing on their training camps? And there are more and more programs coming out where people are getting access to that information. But yeah, the protocols around that. Both altitude and heat training camps are still very unknown and it's not solid about what specifically is the best thing for an age group to do. The last one before I get your comments on these, all these last final ones I'm just throwing out here is hills. We see so many pro athletes just incorporate hills into their training program. Strength training, endurance specific strength training. You know, most cyc. Every, every pro cyclist basically moves to Andorra to, to train in the hills and do all their training there. So that is just a big guess from us. The more hills you can get in, it's only going to be beneficial for you. So any final thoughts on those last ones I've just thrown out there?

No, they're all those things are certainly right in the pros basket, aren't they? And if you can take some of that stuff out of their basket and put it into your own as an age grouper, you will definitely be benefiting from from what they're doing very well. And they're not going to do these particular styles of training if it doesn't work. And you know, we've got some of the best scientific brains in the world in charge of thinking of the pro cycling teams or, or the Norwegians. They are, they are researching this and to be fair, they're researching because they're trying to find a better way. And they have said on our podcast that we don't actually know exactly whether this is the right or wrong way, but we are learning and with every athlete's performance, they learn some more about what worked and what didn't work. But generally we know that altitude training we know that heat training, we know that regular racing, we know that doing endurance work, you know, training back to back sessions, we know that running off the bike for a triathlete, we know all these things are going to contribute to an improvement. We know that strength and conditioning training, we know that good sleep, we know that in the nutrition is key to our performance. If you do a lot of those things well, you will continue to improve your performance on a, on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and in some cases over the decades. Even though you are getting older, it is remarkable how many older athletes are still matching what they could do 15 or 20 years ago. And that's the exciting part. If you do a lot of these things well, pick the brains out of the pros programs and try and implement that into what you're doing on a realistic way. And so that you're not actually running yourself literally into the ground. That's going to be a huge benefit to your performance and make the the sport that you love so much more enjoyable because you are actually performing at your best.

One last point I wanted to pick on in there that you mentioned was regular racing and that's something we see a lot from the pros one because I have to for the career. But you know, scheduling in racing, regular racing smartly and intelligently is where they get such good super specific race intensity and experience from their program and they kind of put what all the volume they're doing to training into a race like condition. And we see at the Diamond League at athletics we see it with cycling how they in season they're barely training, they're just racing. That's the extreme example was it they're racing on the Sunday, they're racing on the Wednesday and then you know, for triathletes as well, whether it's you know endurance athletes are going and doing super league triathlon and getting heaps of intensity from there. Just unbelievable high intensity VO2 training for them or they're jumping up and down distance, they're jumping into an Olympic distance triathlon, they're jumping into some 72.3s or Ironman and getting that race specific experience there. So yeah, you can make mistake as an age grouper to have your eye race and then not do anything for six months up into that where regular field testing, regular racing that you can get yourself into. And you are always putting our triathletes into 10k fun runs into into some crit races on the bike to get that racing experience. Even though triathletes aren't going to do any crit races, you put them into time trial events to get that experience. And that is such a key part that if you want to, you want to do it smartly, but you need to do that to get the most out of yourself.

And it's also an easier way to train. For example, in the next two hours, I'm going to do a race on a Tuesday night. I take that over training session any day. As long as I'm not doing that too often. As long as I'm getting the right training in, it's great occasionally to get a race where I'm not having to think about anything except to be competitive and I'll. I'll be pushing myself to the limit. And that's actually what the aim of the session today is, is to get a maximal effort out. And so what better way to do that and to race when you don't have to think about how hard this training session is? You're so much involved in the race that you're just doing it. And that's a great way to think around getting a high intensity session done. But there are too much of that causes you not to improve because you're not getting the specific high intensity that you should be. But having a filter of that throughout your program is really much more beneficial than just training and then turning up to one race.

In some exciting news to finish off with, we're actually doing a little bit of a self experiment with one of our top athletes who this athlete has a little bit more time to train and can fit a bit more volume into that week and that are at a very high level already. And so we're actually going, we're doing a bit of the, the real intense Ingo Britain method with them where they're doing some double training days a couple days a week where it's like double threshold day. So it's not, it's less high intensity VO2 work. They've done plenty of that. They've got that experience and now they're doing a block of some of those double threshold days. And we'll keep you updated with how that athlete goes and attempting sort of to really copy what a pro can do, even though they are not fully a pro. But we've adjusted the volume to make sure it's something the exact same amount of volume as what the pros are doing. But we've changed that intensity a little bit. So we'll keep you updated that self experiment. So thank you very much as always for listening to another episode of podcast. We hope you've enjoyed it and we'll see you on the next one. It.