The Art of Consistency: Stewart McSweyn's Training and Racing Secrets

What you do in training doesn't really matter if you're not racing well. So once I did kind of take that step forward, I kind of felt like the previous hardship I'd gone through had definitely been worth it. And I kind of felt like I was at the stage where possibly I could start trying to make teams. I could kind of maybe sneak into a Diamond League race or something like that as well.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. In today's episode we are joined by a guest that we have been very excited to talk to for a long time. You will have heard his name on the podcast many times, especially in 2020 and 2021 when he really started dominating on the world Athletic circuit. And that is none other than the man, the 1500 meter superstar from Australia himself, Stuart McSwain and Stewie. He's got some incredible results to his name so far and he's rise to the very top of 1500 meter. The 1500 meter event at World Athletics has been notorious among the athletics community in Australia. He, he started really progressing in 2017, 2018, and then he had some unbelievably consistent seasons in 2020 and 2021 leading up to the Tokyo Olympic Games, and that included multiple Diamond League wins. Basically he had a string of a dozen, maybe more, maybe seven to ten races at Diamond League where the worst position he came was third or fourth behind world champion Jakob Inger Britson, Timothy Chariot and many other superstars around the world. He currently boasts the Australian record in the 1500 meters with a blistering time of 329. Also in the 3000 meters at 728, a 5kpb of 1256, a 10kpb of 1227,23. And he came seventh at the Tokyo Olympics, which is a discussion point of today's podcast, where after coming third or fourth at every single Diamond League event and been ranked actually third in 1500 meters in the world going into the Olympic Games. Seventh was a little bit of a disappointing result for him. Even though, as we say in the episode, you can never balk at coming seventh at the Olympic Games, the pinnacle event for athletics every four years. So we dive right into that in this discussion. We get to ask him all the questions we've been wondering over the last few years, how did he? How did his success come about? What did he do in training? What resulted in this rise for him where he really broke through in 2017, 2018, then had a few good years and really has risen to the top in 1500 meter performances. And he does answer all our questions and we're very excited to really hammer him dad, with training and racing questions. And some of his answers surprised us and some of them did not at all because it's exactly what you would expect from a champion.

Yeah, it was one of my favorite podcasts that we've done in a long time and I say that about every podcast, but this was really great. And look, it's unusual. We haven't had such a really good, classy athlete since Bottram, probably on the track. There's plenty of really good runners around. Don't make many mistakes about that. But Stu has certainly climbed the ladder and on any given day he's as good as anybody in the world. As everybody know who listens to this podcast, our favorite man, Jakob Ingebritsyn. And Stewie, you know, he gets mentioned by Jakob as someone who's a challenge to him and a talent and someone he has to watch. And you've got to admire the way he races. He is an out and out racer and I love his relaxed attitude about everything, about training, about the way he runs to feel and you know, when he gets on the start line, he's clear about what he's going to do. He's going to give it 110% and he says that so many times. No matter what form I'm in, I'm just going to have a crack and if I get the result I want, I'm wrapped. If I don't get the result, I know that I've had a crack and I'm not going to leave anything out on the table. So I just love his attitude and it's no wonder he's been so successful. We had lots of information coming back from fellow guys, you know, who train with him, who say that he's one of the best workers going around. And look, that's an easy thing to say about anybody who trains hard, but he's exceptionally dedicated to getting his training and, you know, on point and where he needs to be and making sure that he's ready for the next event. And that's something that, you know, he's really proud of, I think. And he loves racing for Australia and the world cross country titles are on in Bathurst in, I think it's February 18th and he's got a team put together, a two man, two women team and really excited to see how that goes. That's some of the, you know, the best for athletes that we have at the moment are all going to be racing in that 2k event which is a little bit different distance. But that shows you the versatility that Stu has. He's a really good 800 meter runner. I know you said some really good statistics there, but it's almost easy to gloss over them. His PB is 329 for 1500 meters. You know, there aren't many people who've run under 330 in the history of track and field. He's run a sub 13,5K. You know, there aren't many people who've done that. He's won the Zadapak in here in Melbourne back to back with 27 low 27s as a 10k runner. So, so he really has the score on the board and, and he, he is a performer and that's, that's. I just love talking to people who, who are really confident and trust the process and he, he exhumes all of those principles and it was a great conversation.

I wish I knew the stat off the top of my head, but I believe that his PB of 3k at 07:28:02 is something like it might be top 10 or might be top 15 fastest times ever recorded, which is just an astounding PB to have. So that just shows the caliber of athlete he is. So a lot to learn in this episode. We absolutely love this interview. We can't wait for you to hear it. So without further ado, here is the episode with Stu McSwain. Stewie. Very big welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for jumping on. The first question we like to ask our guests is what session did you do today?

Nah. Thanks for having me on guys. Excited to be on. Today's a Wednesday, so it's kind of a recovery day, so I just have a 70 minute run in the morning, so maybe 15, 16K. Pretty comfy. Maybe 4, 24, 30 kilometer pace and then I'll just run another 7 or 8K in the evening. So um, it's kind of an off day between, between session days, Tuesday and Thursday. So nothing too crazy today.

And you're. You're in Melbourne and training in. Around the suburbs of Melbourne.

Yeah, so I'm actually based in St Kilda, so right now but park. So not a bad spot for training. So I'll pretty much, yeah, do while I'm in Australia. I'll spend, yeah, five or six months here training, love training in Melbourne. I don't think there's many better places in the world to run, so, yeah, enjoying it, especially with a bit better weather as well.

I have to say, I am in St Kilda and I have seen you running around a bit, so I assumed you were local to this area. I've passed you, I reckon, a few times around Albert Park. And when you're doing these easy runs, are you tracking your pace? Are you going purely by feel? Are you looking at your watch or your heart rate?

Yeah, pretty much by feel. I'm not a big data guy. I pretty much run on time. I use a stopwatch rather than a GPS watch. So, yeah, I'm 100% on fuel. I'll just run if I'm tired, I'll run slow. If I'm feeling good, I might push a little bit quicker. But yeah, I'm not really a data guy, so kind of keep it nice and simple. I kind of have my. My laps as well. So I'll have a, like Marvo run. I know 7 and 8k. I won't even wear a watch. I kind of just have a course for that. And then other days I kind of have set course as well that I'll run, whether it takes me 60 minutes, 70 minutes, and it is what it is. I'll just kind of run the course, depending how I feel on the day.

I have heard you're a stopwatch guy.

Are you.

Does it the data get uploaded anywhere? Are you carrying your phone with you? Is it going to Strava or something where you're looking at it after, or you're just happy to run to time?

Nah, absolutely goes nowhere. Just. I don't even really record sessions. I kind of prefer, I think after you've done it for a few years, you kind of get pretty good at judging what your fitness level is. And I kind of prefer not knowing. Like, I think you can get pretty good at comparing sessions and you're always trying to beat them. You're trying to run quicker than what you did last week. But as US athletes know, training indicators don't always indicate racing performance. So I prefer, yeah, kind of just basing on feel and not overthinking it too much. Kind of just keeping it nice and easy and kind of. Yeah, just trying to tick it off rather than. And I'm trying to beat it every run or every session or trying to go quicker or whatever as well.

That's such a refreshing point. Of view, isn't it? And we're really drumming into our athletes who are all listening out there with great interest what the elite people do. And we're kind of pushing our guys to keep, keep a real tab or tally on where they're at in any given period. But you do it in a different way, don't you? You know how you're feeling according to what your times are on certain routes and how long it takes you compared what it normally does and, and generally how you, how you're feeling and coping with the day to day sessions.

Yeah, exactly. I think I'm definitely kind of. You probably described me as a fuel based athlete. I feel like I've been, yeah. Doing it long enough that I kind of have a good judge of how I'm feeling, how hard I'm going. And as you mentioned, you obviously have indicators in training. You, you kind of know what shape you're in. But yeah, I kind of prefer just having, not having times. I'm trying to hit each, each session really because I think, yeah, depending on whether there's so many outcomes that can affect sessions. If you're trying to beat it every time, it's not going to be easy. So yeah, trying to keep it simple. Trying to put those consistent training weeks together is more important for me. And then I know if I can put those weeks together, I'm going to be in good shape at the end of the training block.

It's a big thing. That's kind of a lot of people, especially your coach Nick Berto has said about your real good period over the last five years and how you've really excelled to the top of the world stage. And it's just based on that consistency. Whenever people ask him how Stewie got to this level, he just always says consistent training, training put together over a long period until last year probably had very minimal interruptions. When you look at the way you train and as a field based athlete, like you just said, compared to guys you're lining up against in the start line at every single diamond league or world champ race, like Inger Britzen, you know, he's the very opposite approach. He's very non feel based and very science based, very technical, very lactate based, yet you end up at the start line, at the finish line, you know, under a second apart from each other. What do you think about that? When you, when you look at the mda, compare yourself, do you think you might like to go down that path at all? Do you ever think it's just, just two different ways you go about it. What's, what's your experience there?

Yeah, I think it shows us obviously different ways to do. There's no direct route for him. He's been science based his whole life. Everything's lactate is kind of personalized training for him. I probably similarly done the same but just not as scientific. I don't really record it as much but I kind of understand what works for me, what type of training I need to do. What training I can't really touch on because my body can't handle it or I feel like I can't maintain for that full training block. So yeah, I think over years of experience he's kind of personalized his training a little bit more. I feel like I've kind of done the same as well. So I think with my train the only good thing is when you're probably not going quite as good, you still have that kind of belief that you, you're maybe not going as bad as you think. And I think that's kind of nice going into every race unsure how fit you are, knowing that maybe there is a big result coming up. So yeah, I think it's kind of good that you don't have those limitations and you kind of know your level of fitness in training because then when you get to race day you kind of don't have a limit on what you could do even if your training's not going probably as well as you were hoping going in just on that.

That's a really good point. You brace and I was about to ask you the similar question when you just, you brought that up. If you're going through a bit of a form slump or you don't feel like you're quite racing as well as you should be, are you then questioning should I change something or should I just stick with my program and trust the process?

Yeah, I think you do have to be adaptable if things aren't working. You're kind of looking for reasons what's going wrong or whatever. But what's worked for you in the past generally. For me I've found if I keep generally the same formula it generally I'll hopefully keep getting similar results to what I have in the past. But as you mentioned that the world, the world of sports ever, ever involving place. So you've got to keep getting better, you've got to try and improve. So I've got structures in that. I know that will work but I'm still looking to find the, yeah, the 5% increase in performance, whether that's through adapting training, whether that's through the maybe implementing some of the scientific stuff. Obviously I have a sports like sports team around me. Whether that's nutritionists, we've got a sports physiologist at the vis that I'll use as well. So little things like that. I'm still trying to improve, adapt but yeah, I'll generally year to year try and keep same structures that have held me into relatively good stead up until this point.

The World Cross champs are in 10 days or nine days or 10 days. That's pretty exciting. There's a fair bit of buzz around the Aussie team, specifically your team, the mixed relay 4x2k. What's your training block been up until this point? Have you changed anything specific to preparing for 2 km of cross country?

I think it's been normal. I think we've been generally we're working pretty hard in training so hopefully we'll be in good shape for cross country. We've kind include a few more hills and stuff after seeing the course a couple weeks ago. The world cross country course is going to be tough. There's a fair few hills undulating uneven surfaces so we've probably tried to incorporate that into training more Especially on our Saturday hill session we've been doing kind of more, maybe a few more steeper, a few more undulating hills to try and make sure we're ready for the race. But other than that it's just yeah trying to put the weeks together and making sure in a week's time we're 100% ready to go and hopefully we can put in a great performance.

What is your week leading into that 2k flat out effort look like? Is it a little bit changed from the normal structure of maybe the last eight weeks?

I think it will be. I think we'll have a decent taper. Obviously anytime you're at a World Champs level you've got to be ready to go. So probably early in the week we'll still have a pretty solid session probably on the Tuesday and then after that it'll be tapering off. Nice to make sure we're fresh physically but also mentally. I feel like for a competition like that you kind of want to feel like you're ready to go. You've got to be honest in your step and you're just ready to give 110% on the day. So yeah, we'll train a lot easier in the second half of the week and make sure we're ready to go by the time Bathurst comes around.

Does that team Environment give you a little bit more motivation to sort of, you know, you're very driven as an individual, but now you're in a group of three other team members and you know, that team aspect, you've grown up, you know, here in Victoria, probably playing a lot of cricket and tennis and footy. You know, that team aspect was completely different to individualism in athletics. So does this team environment give you some extra buzz?

Yeah, I think it does. Obviously, firstly, wearing the Aussie goons, it gives you a huge budget buzz. Anyway, for us it's the greatest privilege we have in the sport. So you probably don't need any more motivation than wearing the national guernsey. But I think being in a team environment, you kind of feel like you're not only out there doing it for you, you're doing it for the other three members in our team as well. So, yeah, I'll be making sure I'm ready to go, I'm ready to put in a big performance performance because I know the other three will be doing the same. So hopefully if we can all bring that high performance. Bring the, bring the. Yeah. Bring what we hopefully can do on the day, we're going to be hopefully in a good spot to be right in the mix.

Have you got tactics that you've worked out with who's running what legs, who's doing first and second?

Yeah, I think most teams will generally be the same. I think the, the first and last legs a little bit longer because they have an end like an entry and exit shoot from the 2K. So I think it's about 150 meters longer. So I assume that most teams will have men on the longer legs and have women in the two middle legs. So I'm not sure that that's a hidden secret between any of the teams, but I assume most of them will be pretty much the same.

It is a stack team. For those that don't know, it's you yourself, it's Comm Games gold medalist Ollie Hoare, it's Comm Games bronze medalist Abby Caldwell, and then Jess Hull, who has just been dominating the 1500 meter scene on the world stage as well. So it's very, very exciting. Do you have much contact with, with those athletes? You're all quite spread out around the world or do you guys just meet up in race week and. And chat then? How's that work?

Yeah, I think we'll meet up, but obviously we've been on the circuit together for a lot of years. We know each other really well. We spoke at the end of last year and kind of were like, we should have a crack at this. I reckon if we can get our best team on the park, we can be right in the mix because obviously it's hard to win world, world level medals. Australia hasn't won too many World Cross over the years. So we thought if we're gonna have a chance to do it, we want everyone there, we want everyone peeking for it as well. So I think, yeah, we're all hopefully going to be ready. All four of us are running pretty well at the moment, so fingers crossed we can stay healthy the next week and a half and be ready to go in a week. Yeah, as you mentioned, nine days time.

So exciting. It's on home soil. It's a really great chance for a middle, which is what everyone's buzzing about. It's great to hear that you guys are really peaking for this. We are. We can't wait to see how you go. We want to move into talking about Tokyo 2021. That was a really exciting period for Australian at in general. I think Australian athletics is just improving so much over the last three, four, five years. We're having so many runners dominate on the world stage and it's so exciting for us. We've actually spoken about you a lot on this podcast. That Diamond League season where you were dominating and you ran the 1500 and 3000 national record was just so exciting to see. Coming into Tokyo, you had an unbelievable Diamond League season. You were just performing so well, so consistently. How did you find your experience at Tokyo overall coming off that excellent Diamond League season? What was your recap of the. Of the final?

Yeah, as you mentioned, for us, Olympics without a doubt is the biggest year for us, obviously one once every four years. So for us, it's the pinnacle of what we get to do. And I think it's as any kid, you dream of maybe one day going to Olympics, Whether it's in any sport or for me, it was athletics. So it was obviously a huge honor. I think my preparation had gone amazingly well that season. I was running. I came off that Covert year in 2020, was running well and that felt like I was racing pretty strongly, especially in Europe in that 2021 season. So, yeah, I felt like I came into Olympics in a good position. I was confident if I kind of, yeah, got it right, I could be right in the mix. Whether that was, firstly, you got to get through the round. So in the 1500, we've got a first round, a semi and a final. So the big goal was making sure I got in that final, and then after that, it was kind of putting myself in the mix to try. And obviously you're going into any race trying to win, but to. To be in the mix would have been nice. And trying to be in that top three was always, always the goal as well. So, unfortunately, I wasn't able to get that done on the day. I kind of, yeah, ran out of legs that last 400 in the final, but, yeah, I was in the right position. I felt like I executed a good race other than I got a little bit tired late. But I feel like in Olympic final, you want to go in and give yourself any chance to try and if not win, be right in the mix. And I did. I did that. So I kind of walked off the track knowing that although I didn't finish top three, I was kind of knew that I left it all out there and gave myself the best chance on the day to try and do some pretty special. So, yeah, as I mentioned, that's. That's all I could do. So I kind of walked away from the Olympics pretty, pretty satisfied. But if I want to do better in Paris, I've got to keep improving and, yeah, get better from that experience.

You came seventh in3.31, which just shows the speed. And I can't remember what Jakob did. Was it 329? But look, seventh is an outstanding result at the Olympics. And there's no way we want to use the word disappointed when you get that, but it is interesting to hear that, you know, for yourself, you probably were a little bit disappointed because you know that you can mix it in and definitely be in that top three and you give yourself every chance to win. So I guess I want to know from that final, what lessons do you take away to try and improve for Paris?

Yeah, as you mentioned, I think that season I finished ranked. I think on the rankings, I was third. So it would have been nice to be top three at the Olympics. I feel like with the rest of the season, the lowest I finished in a 1500 was 4. So to finish seventh at Olympics obviously wasn't what I was aiming for. But, yeah, as you mentioned, championship racing is different. There's a lot of. A lot of factors going into it. But, yeah, I think for me, I've got to get better at the rounds. I think especially the Olympics is. There's so much hype. You have so many expectations, so many people reaching out. I think it's the one meet for us every four years where the media cares a lot about. So, yeah, it's just a different experience and I've probably got to get better at kind of blocking out that external factors and also getting better, getting through the rounds. I think at the Olympics, the semi finals are hard. The heat, even the heat's hard. There's no easy rounds. Everyone at the Olympics is a good athlete. So I've got to get better getting through that heat and semi comfy and making sure when I do get to the final, hopefully I can't can run quicker than 331 and maybe I can get near my PB on the final day and that should put me right in the mix. So that's what I'm working on for Paris. And then, yeah, I guess we'll, we'll find out in the next 18 months how, how that improvement curve goes on that exact topic.

The three races that you have to do in such a short time span, is that something that you think impacted on you and you weren't, you weren't ready for that third race? I don't mean not ready. I mean, did it take too much out of you and can you do something about that knowing that you're going to have three, pretty much three 30 something, 331, 332, 333 in a row. Three, three times in one week. Do you think there's something you can do there that will enable you not to run out of legs on that, that third time, lining up to run basically, you know, the fastest you could ever run in your career?

Yeah, I think it's. It comes down to like the recovery practices. It's not often we have to do three races in four days. So it's just focused on those recovery. I think at the Olympics it's kind of so much is going on, it's easy to get distracted, especially three rounds. You've got to like, you've got drug testing on off days, you've got media commitments you got to do. So it's kind of probably avoiding doing as much stuff as you. You can avoid doing and making sure you just focus on that recovery, whether that's making sure you're eating right, the ice baths on off days or whatever to try and make sure by the time you've had those two rounds, once you're in the final, you're feeling like you're showing up, your body's 100 and you're ready to absolute roll. So I think for me that's going to be the big focus kind of. Yeah. Blocking out that external stuff that obviously you have to do some Drug testing or whatever, there's no, no way around it you're doing. But just the other stuff, you can kind of probably block it out, not, not spend as much energy on other stuff between those rounds. And hopefully that means you'll be more rested and energized for. Hopefully if I can get through the final in Paris, I'll be in a better position to hopefully give it a, give it a good crack.

Anything in your training that you would do differently to, to prepare you for those three runs in, in the four days, is there something you would practice maybe six weeks out to have back to. Back to back kind of races to get your body used to that, that feel?

Yeah, I think there's definitely something in it kind of leading in. I did have a lot of races. I had three in a week. So I kind of did have that practice jumping around and was able to run pretty well. So I think it does come down to training. We're kind of looking at being able to do hard efforts back to back days because in most of our cycle you kind of base it on. You have a hard session, you have an easy day recovery hard session. But in the champs you're obviously the heat and semi are back to back days. So you've got to get used to that ability to recover quickly and make sure you're ready to go the next day. So for me, it's making sure I'm physically ready to hopefully be able to get through the heat okay and then the sammy and feel like I can have that off day and then. Yeah, come back the third time and be able to deliver. Yeah, hopefully near my best.

We heard you say that. Yeah. Everything you were talking about just then with the media drug testing, everything that is involved in the Olympics, you did struggle a little bit with the village. How could you change that? Is that true that you're a bit, I don't know, maybe overwhelmed with everything going on in the village? Were you just kind of a bit too stimulated with the whole Olympic experience? Talk us through that, that village experience and maybe what you do differently there.

Yeah, I think compared to any other champs, the, the Olympics are definitely the hardest. Obviously Covid made it harder for us because we're kind of normally. I was one of the later events, so I wouldn't come to the village that early. And obviously we had to go to pre camp in Japan. So you're spending a week in a pre camp where you're kind of just in your hotel room if you're not training. Obviously you couldn't Risk going outside based on COVID protocols. And then I spent, yeah, five or six days before my first round just sitting in the Olympics waiting. You kind of ride in the highs of the rest of the team, not only in athletics, you've got swimming in the first week, so you're riding the highs of people winning golds or whatever. And then you're also feeling the lows when people have disappointing performance because you're obviously in the team area, you're kind of riding their stories as well. So. So I think that's a little bit hard to have that emotional up and down before, even before you've even stepped on the start line for your first round. So hopefully we don't have that covert issue again and we're kind of. I'd prefer if I'm not getting to the village quite as early. It's probably nicer watching it externally rather than being riding the emotional roller coaster that is everyone's Olympic journey. And you're kind of there and yeah, kind of riding their waves as well, which probably ties you a little bit for when you actually start. So. So I think that hopefully will be a big change for future championships.

I definitely think anybody who does anything for the second time has such a great experience from the first event and they do things so much better the next time. So I'm really excited. Next time you'll have learned so much from that first experience and you'll be a better athlete for it, there's no doubt. And you've learned so many things about what worked and what didn't. And you've already explained that you know you're going to do things slightly differently. So. So, Lia, just believe me, people who do things for the second time generally do a better job at it, second round at it. So the next question I'm kind of keen on asking is what do you think is your greatest strength as a runner that's enabled you to get to this point at this high level? And let's face it, you are ranked, as you just said, in the top three in the world at this 1500 meter event. What do you think is your greatest strength that's allowed you to rise from a boy from King island and is now making, you know, on the world scene as a, as a top 1500 meter runner.

I think the biggest thing for me, obviously a lot of, a lot of physical and stuff come into it, but for me, I feel like I've grown up pretty resilient guy. I feel like I'm pretty good at riding the ups and Downs of the sport. Obviously in any athletics career you can have a lot of, a lot of ups, but you're going to have a lot of downs as well. Whether that's missing teams underperforming, having off years, having bad races. But I feel like for me, I kind of always feel like I can get through it and I kind of stay pretty positive from that sense. So I feel like I'm pretty good at writing the negatives and trying to turn them into positives and trying to whether I've had a defeat, I've underperformed, I'm trying to use it to find things I can get better at and kind of make sure it doesn't happen again. So I think resiliency is probably one of my, what I think is one of my greatest strengths. And yeah, I think that kind of has helped me over the years kind of ride the waves that any, any athlete faces.

I was speaking to one of your teammates at Melbourne Track Club at your training group and he was explaining that there seemed to be a bit of a lag period of almost a couple of years between how well you were training and translating that into race results. So was that a bit of a frustrating period for you and is that an example of what you're talking about here with being able to push through some potentially hard times?

I don't think that was really the sense of the hard time. I think it was more that you kind of, it's weird. I feel like in performance you kind of got to get to a level in training and be able to do a certain amount of training and kind of recover from that training before you're able to execute it at the highest level, which for us is a race. So yeah, I think I struggled initially probably handling the training load. Obviously you're trying to work out what works for you, what doesn't. I came from a junior who wasn't really training too hard to then when I was 21, 22, jumping into open ranks and joining Melbourne Track Club, which is a professional group and trying to train a fair bit harder. So it probably takes, takes a little bit to kind of, yeah, get used to the training loads and yeah all the things that are involved with as well. At that point I wasn't a full time athlete as well. I was kind of working jobs as well. So you kind of recovery is probably not as good. So you're probably not recovering from training as much or whatever. So there's a lot of factors into it. But I think those that probably year when I was training really well, but not racing quite as well probably kind of did drive me to keep pushing through and then once I kind of saw those results in races, I kind of, yeah, worked out what worked for me and I kind of, yeah, was able to use that from that point to hopefully keep improving from, from that point on.

Did you find that being with the group training mentality with such an elite group of eight to ten runners around you, did that help you or did is that something you felt was a real contributing positive aspect of your training and preparation for races?

I definitely think so. I think you always want to be in a situation where you're getting pushed. For me, when I joined I was probably the 10th best guy. You kind of, yeah, you see, see the standard you need to get to. It's kind of nice. Although no one likes getting their ass handed to them in training sessions. We kind of, you want to avoid that if you can. It's pretty eye opening and kind of motivates you to get to that next level because you don't really enjoy it too much. So for me, kind of jumping in the deep end with the group I think definitely helped me and kind of, yeah, I think every season you realize how good everyone's going, how good the rest of the world is going. So you kind of need to have that, that ability to not just settle where you are trying to get better each time. And I think with a group it definitely helps that, that you're all trying to get better each season because if you don't, you're going to get left behind. So you've got to kind of, yeah, keep, keep working to improve and keep, keep working as hard as you did the previous year. I think as you, as you mentioned for us generally you're only as good as your last race. So there's no use sitting on your laurels. You got to keep trying to get better and try and improve on, on what you've done previously.

I'm super fascinated by that period though, because in hindsight it's, you can easily see that, yeah, you just need consistency. You needed your body to adapt as training load, but at the time you wouldn't have known exactly what was happening and you're obviously just trying to improve. But what were you telling yourself, you know, when your race times weren't quite there, you, you were, you're in that period for a couple of years. Are you just getting through it? Are you thinking, are you questioning yourself as a professional athlete and how much time you're dedicating to it or Were you just someone that was happy to keep pushing and you had confidence it would come? What was it for you?

Yeah, I think when things aren't going well, you're obviously any, any athlete, they're probably lying if they're not saying you're questioning things. You're kind of unsure if it's worth the, the effort. I think a lot of athletes will go through it where you have those tough periods and you kind of. Yeah. Is it worth doing? What am I doing wrong? What can I do? What, yeah, what's, what's happening that I should be doing better. But yeah, I think it was just that positive outlook that I knew it was going to come. It's whether it was in the next race, three races down the track, I kind of believed that it would come. And you kind of. Yeah, just gotta, gotta hold it together. Gotta stay strong kinda.

Yeah.

Back yourself in that. That it will happen. Yeah. And then once it did happen, it kinda, you feel like you've kind of reached that level and you feel like you can kind of progress from there. So you kind of just. Yeah, got to sit tough and hope for it to turn around.

How was that feeling when I think there was a couple of breakout performances around that 27, 28 in period and you ran a 1325 K, I think at Diamond League and then your PB for 15 jumped from 340 or 341, maybe even 342 down to 334 quite, quite drastically. When you had a couple of those, correct me if I'm wrong there, when you had a couple of those races, how did that feel and how much confidence did that give you?

Yeah, I think a lot. Obviously this is a performance based sport. What you're doing, training doesn't, doesn't really matter if you're not racing well. So once I did kind of take that step forward, I kind of, yeah, felt like the, the previous hardship I'd gone through had definitely been worth it. And I kind of felt like I was at the stage where possibly I could start trying to make teams. I could kind of maybe sneak into a Diamond League race or something like that as well. So. So yeah, obviously it was a huge confidence that I could be at the level and could compete against some of the best guys in the world. So yeah, I think it kind of showed that the training did work. I just kind of had to get on top of it in the end.

Trusting the process is something that we really push out to our athletes and making them understand that if they continue with the right work ethic and work hard and be consistent and as you said, resilience, you will eventually succeed, you will prevail. And it could take two, three seasons before you start to see any improvement. And that's something that it is hard for people to really get their heads around is far out. I've been working so hard for six months here and yet I'm still feeling like I'm not, you know, getting anywhere. Is that something that, that you've experienced in on your journey and something you could sort of tell the listener that, you know, just trust the process.

Yeah, I think no matter what, what level athlete you are, you kind of put in the work before you see any result. You probably performance plate why you are getting better. You're probably not seeing the results, but it's crazy. You can be plateauing, not seeing the results for a fair bit of time. If you can stay at it, keep going. It's crazy sometimes how quick you can jump. For me, I was probably running 13:40 consistently for that year and then all of a sudden I ran 20 odd seconds in one race quicker and kind of jumped me forward. And then I felt like every race from there I was kind of running a PB or improving. But there's no doubt those hard years of training where I probably didn't see the results for the level I was training at definitely got me to the level where that big breakthrough could happen. So I think you just gotta. Yeah, I just said stay consistent, keep putting in the work. And yeah, if you, if you're willing to work hard enough, the results will come at some point. You just gotta kind of. Yeah. Stick to it and back in that if you're doing a lot of the right things, in the end you'll kind of get that just reward.

I love that message so much. It's just, it just every athlete needs to hear that. Whether you're a professional or whether you're just aiming for park run, PBS or something. That's just, it just is so true. So I hope everyone really does take that on board and your story is just perfect for that. And from, from those years onwards, you just kept going on that upward trajectory and I think that is a clear reward for the hard work you were doing. We spoke about your strength as a runner and your strength and consistency in training and what the rewards you reap from that. Can we talk about maybe any areas you've identified as a weakness in your running and is there anything you're currently working on specifically to try and improve?

Yeah, I Think for me a big thing is a lot of the, the off track work. Obviously I'm not great in the, the gym and little things like that. So I've kind of, especially over the last 18 months, I've definitely put a bigger focus on making sure I'm doing the, the little things. Whether that's getting the gym two or three times a week, making sure I'm getting the massage every week, making sure I've got that schedule in because yeah, as I mentioned after Tokyo I'm looking to try and find 1 or 2%. So for me, making sure I'm doing those little things, if they can get me 0.5% better, I'm all for it. So yeah, just making sure I'm doing. It's not only for us, it's not the running, it's not always just the running training, it's the, yeah, the recovery. Doing the little things that keep you on the track, keep you healthy and keep you with the ability to put the consistent weeks together. So they're probably the big thing that I'm trying to improve in kind of what's going on with my like kind of training week.

I'm interested in the mental side of your thought processes for getting yourself up for race and how you think about. Because everything you're doing is going to be as a result of what happens on race day. All the massage, all the strength work, all the nutrition, all the right sleep components and of course the training program. But if that's all in place and yet you still have anxiety about racing and we have a lot of people we coach who just have this huge anxiety about, about putting a number on or standing with their foot on the line or jumping on the bike to race. How are you approaching that from, you know, are you embracing that? Is it something you've always had a fear of or you, you can't wait to race, what's your thought process about that, that mental side of race preparation?

Yeah, I think any race, if it means something to you, you're going to be a little bit nervous. I think as you mentioned, when you put in the work in practice, you kind of want to get the just reward from the race. So you do have an expectation, whether that's external, say for the Olympics or whatever, or your own expectation on a race, you kind of do have that little bit of pressure to perform. But for me it's kind of I'm just going into every race going, no matter what happens, when I'm on the start line, if I go out, give it 110 and I finish. Whether I run quick, slow or anything in between, that's all I can do. And whether it's a great result, I'm still going to look at it and go, what did I do well? What did I not do well? How can I improve? And whether it's a bad one, I'm going to do the exact same. So it's kind of. You just got to go in with that. For me, the mentality that you're going to go out there, give it everything you have on the day, whether it's good enough to win 10th, whatever it takes care of itself, but you can just go in and give it everything you have on the day and you'll kind of walk off knowing that. That you left it all out there. And hopefully there's going to be a few more races where you can kind of resurrect it if it doesn't go well.

From that point, are you analyzing your performance yourself or based on your result? And that's something that really. I'm intrigued to hear your answer.

Yeah, I think no matter the performance, you're still trying to work out what happened. I think you'll probably. I don't really like watching my own races too much, but you're probably more likely to watch races, you actually have bad days than the ones that you run really well or win just because you kind of want to work out what happened, how did that happen, what mistakes you made, and to try and not let it happen again. So I think you have to, no matter the level of performance you bring, you still have to be critical to try and work out how you can improve. Because unless you're the best in the world, there's definitely a lot of room for improvement. So as I said, until you're breaking world records to the best, you're still a long way off what I'm aiming to do. So I've got to kind of keep looking for those inches and those bits of improvement I can take along the way.

You are breaking a lot of national records, so, I mean, you're not far off that world record stage. I guess I still want to stick to the. This kind of mental preparation for races because it is a massive area for. And we just find a lot of professional athletes tend to have generally a better hold on it because you race so much. Whereas a lot of amateur athletes, age group athletes, like we said, recreational athletes, tend to get really nervous about and build themselves up a lot because they're trying to run a pb. They put Pressure on themselves. So for you, at what point do you start thinking about the race? During race week? Are you thinking a week out? Are you just not touching it till the night before? How do you go about that mental process?

Yeah, for me, I probably try and avoid thinking about it too much. I'll kinda have a plan that I will know at least a day before I'll know what I'm gonna do in the race. Generally I'll have a decent idea and then, yeah, I probably won't think about it till I actually warm up. Other than just making sure I'm doing the, the little things like making sure I get a good night's sleep, I'm eating the right things, but I won't overanalyze the race. Obviously you, you, as I said, you have a plan, but you kind of don't want to overthink it because you get in a race, anything could happen. There's, there's, there's different factors. You can't, you can't be set on what you're going to do. You kind of got to be adaptable as well. So yeah, I won't overthink it until I'm on that start line. And then once I'm out there, kind of, you feel like you're in control and you can kind of take take control of what's going on out there and you're kind of probably not quite as nervous once you're actually in the action and kind of can do, do your best. Once you're, once you're in the race.

Situation, do you feel that, that if you can control the race, you're going to have a better outcome than if you're being dictated to by the other competitors. Let's take for example any of those Diamond League races where the pace starts out too slow for you and the pace setter, which is unusual, that it could be too slow, but if you find the race is too slow, would you go and dictate the race and take control or take us through that? How do you feel you race best?

Yeah, I think for me it's kind of, as you mentioned, taking control of your own, kind of in the race, some sort of your destiny. I think for me, I prefer running what suits me, running how, how I think I'm gonna do. Run the best I can on the day and yeah, so I'll try. Yeah, hopefully I can try. And I actually like leading because it kind of takes out the kind of factors of what the other competitors are doing, what, what else is going on and I can kind of just focus on running my best race. If it's good enough to win the race to beat everyone else, so be it. If it's not good enough and I get beat, at least I've kind of go out there and know that I've. I've ran the race that I thought suited me and kind of gave it 110 on the day. So, yeah, I kind of prefer having that. That sense of control where you're focusing on your race and then whether. Whether people beat you or you beat them. You run a pb, you don't run a pb, at least you've kind of left in your hands and kind of can ride that result based on knowing that you kind of took. Took control of your own result.

Race execution is, yeah, just such a big thing that we try and drum into our athletes at Triballo because dictate whether that you actually get the rewards from your training or if you stuff up the execution so badly, you just, you're not doing yourself any justice. When you were getting these, you know, continued repeated good results at the world stage at Diamond League, there was a lot of buzz around Australian athletics about the stuff you were doing. And I know you said you don't watch your race back, but if you did, you would know that the. The main Diamond League commentator, the British guy, I can't actually remember his name, but he loves it when you race because you're always out the front. You're always taking the race on, setting a hot pace and he just gets so excited. He's like, oh, we can always trust you and explain to sure that the pace is on and that's the way you like to race. And I want to take that back to the very start. So you don't have the quickest starts. And is that something that you do one a little bit deliberately to. You like to see how the race plans out or you're just not quick enough off the line and you're okay with that? I mean, talk us through. But then you do like to get to the front at some point, first 200, 300 meters. So talk us through that.

Yeah, I think for me, it probably looks like it's more deliberate because Jakob kind of rolls off the start line as well. Well, so often me and him are kind of towards the back and we kind of roll around a little bit. But yeah, being a taller kind of gangly guy, I'm probably not quite as explosive as a lot of guys. Especially in the 1500, I came down from the 10k 5k so we didn't have to get off the line quite as quick. And then in the 1500 you're racing guys that are amazing over the 800 as well. So I probably don't have the explosion to get off the line as quick as some of, some of the guys but, but I kind of don't mind it too much as well because it kind of enables me to find the spot that I want to get in the race. Even though I do have to probably work a little bit hard in the first 200, I kind of can work out where I want to be in the race. I kind of get a decent look to see, to see how the race is panning out before I kind of work out where I want to sit. So I'd love to get out quicker if I could, but unfortunately I probably don't have the explosion of some of the other guys in the 1500.

Do you think it could work in your favor a little bit though because the first hundred guys are gassing it out. It's really 100 meter sprint and yes, you're working probably a little bit harder from what, 100 to 200 around the bend, but you're also not probably using as much or getting as far into the red zone in that first hundred as the other guy. So do you think that benefits you at all or do you think it all works out pretty similar?

I think maybe it does. I'm probably not quite going. I am still trying pretty hard that first time. It's not going as quick as those guys. But yeah, I think the big thing for me is it kind of probably helps me stay out of trouble a little bit more. As we say in middle distance racing, there's a lot of people get clear, dip, fall over in that first 200 meters it can be kind of the dangerous part, especially when you're in good level fields because there's 15 guys fighting for good spots. So it can be dangerous. So it probably helps me in some sense stay out of trouble a little bit that first lap. So that's probably the, the positive side of not being quite as explosive as the other guys.

We, we heard you say about you coming down from 10, 000 to 5, 000 to 1500 compared to some runners who come from 800 up to 1500. How much, much value do you think racing those 10Ks, the Zatopex, the 5Ks has enabled you to be a strong 1500 meter runner?

I think a lot. Obviously I'm not as quick over the 800 as a lot of guys. So I've got to be for the 1500, I've got to be strong over the 3k, 5k because that's my advantage on them. Hopefully I can kind of hurt them before that last 100 meter sprint if I can. Because obviously there's guys that have a quicker, quicker last hundred than me if we're, we're head to head coming down the straight. So yeah, I think also for me when you're only running for a bit under four laps, it's kind of nicer than when I used to do the 10K on the track. And you'd see 24, 23, 22 laps on the counter. Kind of feeling like you get to halfway and you see one or two laps left in a 1500 mentally is a lot nicer than having the long run home as you're doing the 5k and 10k. So I think that's kind of made the transition down to the 1500 a little nice as well.

That comes to the point of where I've watched so many 1500 meter races where Ingebritzen from 500, 400 or 300, he will not let anybody pass him once he goes to the front. And that just winding it up tactic that he uses. And he lost the world titles with someone passing him with 150 to go, which I think threw him out almost. And is that something that you could train yourself? Is that something you're thinking about? Because that's his tactic is to not let anybody pass him from the point he gets to the front of the field to the finish. Is that something you've, you've seen him do or thought about or something you can do about your training to match that? Have you, has that been in your mind about how he races?

I think so. Obviously he's the best guy in our event. So you kind of using him as kind of the what the level you need to get to. So, so what he's able to do from the front, I think he makes it look so easy, but when he gets to the front he's grinding the pace, he's dropping a second every 100. And it's not physically not an easy thing to do, especially when you're at that point of the race you've got lactic build up as well. So obviously I'm looking to try and emulate what he can do, but I've got to run to my strengths as well. So as I said, any race I'm going in, I'm trying to win, I'm trying to beat him if I can. But he's obviously got a tactic and he's a brilliant athlete that's working pretty well. So I'll be trying to. Yeah. Hopefully this season I can kind of throw a few curveballs with him. But we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

I do want to ask a couple more questions on kind of this mindset and self talk in race and pre race. Just taking it back to the night before. Are you fine just naturally you're able to get to sleep pretty well. You don't overthink the race or is there any tactic you use to not think about the race? I guess that's the distinction. Is it something that comes naturally or is there anything specific that you do to get yourself to have a good night? So sleep.

Luckily I feel like I'm not bad at getting to sleep on race nights. I try and yeah as I mentioned, I don't try and overthink it. I'm not really too worried. I'll kind of yeah. Do all the preparation the day before I need whether that's the hydration, the nutrition, whatever to make sure that when the next day comes I'm going to be ready to race. But other than that I won't overthink it. I won't worry too much. I'll kind of wait to the next day and still not think about it too much until I'm really warming up and I'll kind of kind of that 50 minutes before when I'm warming up I'll kind of lock in, have the plan ready that when that gun goes I know what I'm doing, I'm ready to go. I know that I've done the preparation, the days, the months, the weeks leading up that hopefully I can kind of take care of what I'm trying to do in the race. So there's for me there's no. Not really anything I can gain from overthinking it the day or the morning of. I'll kind of yeah. Wait to that. That warm up period and make sure I'm ready to go. I'm mentally there as well. I know what I'm doing and kind of ready to switch on when the, when the gun goes though the gun does go and then yeah.

On the start line. What, what specifically are you saying to yourself? Are you. Yeah. You running through the first 100, 200. What's. What, what's. What are the actual specifics?

Yeah, I think yeah, you need to have some kind of plan of how it's going to be. But as I mentioned, you got to be able to adapt. No race is the same, especially middle distance. There's so much happening whether you can get a position, you can't get a position, you're kind of thinking on the spot, whether the pace is quick, slow. So you're still adapting to how the race is playing out. But for me, as I mentioned, I'm standing on the start line going, I've done the prep, whether it was the perfect prep, whether it wasn't. I'm at this point, all I can do is go, I'm going to run 110% in this race and whatever the result is, I can kind of live with that. Whether it's bad, good, whatever in between, I can kind of, yeah, live with that and move forward from that. So I'll just go this next three and a half minutes, I'm just going to give it everything I have and hopefully the result takes care of itself.

You are seen as such a gutsy runner and that is proven time and time again when you're willing to go to the front of the race and as you said before, lead the race and take on the race and push that fast pace. And that even showed last year when you fronted up to a few races knowing you weren't in the best shape post Covid and you still fronted up anyway and gave it everything. And even the results were way off. It showed real gutsy running. Take us through that period last year when Covid affected you for a lot longer than you thought and you had to take basically a fair bit, bit of season off. How did you get through that? How did you manage that mentally?

Yeah, obviously I was struggling with health for a fair few months at the start of the year. Yeah, as I mentioned, it was probably one of those tough periods that you kind of had to work through. Yeah, it was definitely tough. Not only the physical side, the mental side. I think not knowing how long it was going to last for not having the exact, I think athletes, you kind of like having exact dances of knowing when you're going to be back to your best, what effect it's going to have, whether you're ever actually going to get back to your best. You kind of want a timeline. Obviously I didn't have that with what I was going through in the, probably the first four months of the. The season last year. But yeah, as I said, I just kind of had to stay resilient, keep. Keep doing what I normally do, following the process I normally do. And even in the races, obviously I Was trying to do what I normally could. Physically I couldn't do it it, but I was still showing up, trying to do what I normally could with the hope that at some point during the season, hopefully I'd be able to turn it around and hopefully get some just reward for those couple of tough months where I was still pushing through and training. Probably not quite the level that I would hope I'd be able to train at that time of the year. But we're still, yeah, showing up and hoping I could yeah, kind of turn the season around from that point.

A lot of athletes just want to get back to where they were in two days after the had two or three weeks off and they just expect to resume. Did you have that same thought process or did you say, no, I've been sick. I need to progress and let my body catch up to the intensity that's able to cope with. Is that how you went about it or were you like most guys who just want to get back to the normal training routine and almost act like nothing was wrong with them? How did you go about, about your return to training?

Yeah, I think initially I was kind of just up in the air with what was going on that I kind of probably did push through a little hard. Obviously I was trying to get back for the first race of the Diamond League season in Doha. I think it was the start of May. So I did have a timeline that I was trying to get back for. So maybe I was pushing a little bit through through too hard. But then from that point on it was kind of, yeah, I, I kind of worked out that whether I was going to miss the whole season, whether I was going to miss a couple of months, I was gonna kind of adapt training to try and keep training. So I did have that base level of fitness, but kind of make sure I wasn't pushing too hard until I felt like my body was kind of responding and I kind of felt like I was somewhat near my best again before I kind of started focusing on the intensity and kind of, yeah, pushing towards trying to get back to full fitness.

I think we really want to finish this conversation and go into kind of your next 18 months and go, what is, what is your plan around the long term goal being Paris Olympics, but there's a lot of stuff in between that. So how do you approach this with your coach? Do you take it one race at a time? How do you actually plan out your training, structure your racing goals, knowing that the biggest one is Paris next year?

Yeah, I think every year we kind of are lucky that we have a major championship. So if we don't have Olympics, we'll have world champs. We're back to actually lucky this year. We've got a world champs in the cross country early season as a goal. But then we've got the world champs in Hungary in. Yeah, I think at the end of August this year. So there's always a big goal each year that you're gonna put a lot of focus in. Ultimately, as you said, the Olympics for us is the, the big, the big picture goal, the pinnacle. Each season we're lucky. Yeah, we've got the, the championship and we've also got the dime league circuit which for us is kind of like the top level of our sport. So yeah, I think you're focusing on each season as it comes, trying to improve, whether that's running, running quick times, trying to run personal best or whatever, but also trying to race well in those races and kind of trying to improve every time you step on the track each season and then take that momentum into, as you mentioned, the Olympics next year is the, the ultimate goal. But hopefully I can put some good, good results together this year and kind of ride that momentum going into 2024.

Can you give us an insight into how your training blocks actually look? So what do you do between. Yeah. Feb and August? How are your training blocks just pretty similar training kind of the same way or is there big volume periods? Obviously altitude periods? I mean, you guys head to Europe early. Yeah. How do the training blocks actually look and get broken up?

Yeah, I think they're definitely in different phases for us. Like the training is probably similar, but probably the approach and intensity you take changes a lot. For me, I'm probably here in build up phase. Anywhere up from when I start training again after the European season, maybe October, you're probably not in great shape and you'll slowly, week by week, slowly get a little bit better shape until probably February and then you'll kind of step up training a little bit until maybe a month before we leave to go overseas. That's when you're really knuckling down and you kind of. Yeah. Putting a lot more focus on training. For me, I feel like I kind of maybe pre Christmas I'm trained at 70 then and from Christmas to a month before the European season, I feel like Maybe I'm going 80, 85% of what I feel like I can in training. And then once I get towards that European season, it's kind of. They're the months you're trying to peak for they're the, the times you want to be running well. So that's the, when you're knuckling down, you're doing the harder, probably pushing a little bit harder in training, you're kind of focusing a little bit more. And then obviously the weeks leading up to a championship is when you're kind of are all locked in on the performance and making sure you're doing everything you can. Because I think in a year if you're 100% focused on just running, it's a tough sport mentally to be able to maintain for long periods. You do have to have those phases where you kind of feel like you're building up and then that ultimately leading up to champs is where you want to be at your peak level of performance and kind of feel like you're throwing everything at those weeks training and making sure you're ready to go when the champs does come around.

There's a lot of opportunities with the Diamond League. There's so many Diamond League events leading into the World Champs. How are you selecting which races you're going to do and, and what are you doing in between each race? How's the training look?

Yeah, I think it depends on the travel, but you're obviously still training hard because like you'll taper for the races because they're obviously important races. They're good preparation, they're, they're. You, you get to race against the guys that are going to be in the finals in the World Champs or the Olympics. So you kind of of building the skill set to be able to compete at that level and kind of, yeah, understand where you sit compared to other guys and it'll kind of give you an indication of how your training is going prior to those races and then probably how you need to adapt it or improve it post those races as well leading up to the championship. So I think you'll select them based on what, what works well with your training program because you don't want to over race, but then you also want to race quite a bit as well. For me, just to make sure I'm feeling like I'm at a level where I can compete against those guys that when chance does come around, I feel like I, I know what I need to do and know how I'm lining up against a lot of the guys and have that confidence that I can hopefully perform pretty well.

And how flexible are you around the races? Are you making any last minute calls? Are you deciding a couple of weeks out or are you deciding a month or two out of which races you're going to do.

I think before the start of the season, you'll have a general plan of which ones you're doing. You're probably committed to quite a few on the circuit and they know you're racing there. But I think, think, yeah, it's that adaptability where you don't know if you're going to be sick, you don't know if you're going to be injured. You might have a couple races and you feel like you need to go back to training. So you might skip a Diamond League, train for a couple of weeks, maybe go to altitude and train and then kind of come back topped up your fitness level, maybe a little bit fresher from not jumping around and traveling so much for races and then kind of, yeah, work out whether you're going to have another race soon or you're going to keep training for another week or two, depending on. On how the season runs. I think a lot of it comes down to how, how you're feeling, how you, how you feel your fitness is and then also how the races are going. If they're going well, it's probably easier to keep jumping around, but if you have a couple of options, you're probably trying to. Trying to work out whether you need to, yeah. Boost that fitness level, go back to training for a bit or. Yeah, kind of kind of adapt what you need to do to keep going throughout the. Throughout the season.

Are there any in particular races that you really say this is a race I don't want to miss? Like some races you've done really well at in the Diamond League, I think. Was it Brussels where you ran sub 13 for the 5k?

Yeah. I think you have favorite races I obviously love. Yeah, I love the Brussels Dynam League. It's amazing atmosphere, they get amazing crowds. So if you're in decent shape and you can get a start there, you're probably not turning it down unless you have a real big reason. But yeah, there's definitely ones you want to be in as well. Oslo, I love, I love Stockholm Diamond League, the ones in gb. London is a great Diamond League as well. So they're probably the ones you, if you can get in and it fits in your schedule, you're definitely giving it a tick to have a race. But yeah, as I said, ultimately depends on a lot of other factors how you're traveling and also depends how you're running because if you're not running well, you might not get a start in it as well. So. So that also becomes A factor of where you end up racing as well.

So one of the biggest factors you said that you manipulate is intensity and in this buildup period obviously lower and then like you said, you're peaking for closer to actual racing season. What about volume and frequency of training? Are you always going to be running the same amount of times per week? And then how much is your volume changing throughout the year? I know you average around 150Ks a week. So how do you adjust the that?

I think yeah, for me it's kind of keeping it similar. I'll generally yeah, throughout the year it won't change a lot. Obviously when I'm building back up for the season I'll start a lot lower and slowly increase it week by week.

How much lower?

Like maybe I'll first wake. I might be running normally, might run 11 times in a week. First week I might be running three or four times. And then slowly, yeah, build up from there, start adding intensity back and then just kind of playing it by feel because obviously, obviously you got to get your muscles, tendons and stuff used to running hard again. So you kind of got to slowly build that up. But after I'm past that build up phase, most weeks will be similar, generally the same volume, generally the same intensity. And then kind of the off weeks will kind of fit in with racing. If I've got an important race, I'll definitely lower the volume, lower the intensity, especially the last three or four days before the race to make sure you're feeling really good for the race day.

But.

But depends if you're racing a lot. You can't always have big taper weeks otherwise you're going to lose that baseline fitness. So you'll have races as well where you kind of, especially domestically you might go into it not even tapering much. Maybe the day before you might have it a little easier.

Why?

The big diamond league races and the championships you're having that full big taper to make sure you're 100% fresh and ready to go.

Have you experienced both? You've raced well with no taper, you've raced well with a big taper and have you found out which is really your go to too? You've had so many chances at practicing different variations of tapering. Have you nutted out what exactly works well for you?

Yeah, I think it's an individual thing for me. I'd probably respond better if I have kind of medium taper. I actually don't like tapering a massive amount. Obviously if you're running a lot of Volume, it's a big step down if you start tapering a lot and your body kind of probably doesn't quite respond as well. So for me, it's maybe the last couple of days leading in where I'll kind of to reduce the load, the amount I'm running. I won't do anything high intensity on those couple days to make sure that when the race comes around my body's ready for that high intensity effort. That's going to be a race, which is the hardest thing we do. It's harder than anything you do in training. So you got to make sure you're mentally and your body's physically ready as well. From the taper, can you give us.

An example of a really specific session two or three days out? What is the exact rep range and distance and. And times you're hitting a couple days out from a race?

Yeah. So maybe the last solid workout I'll generally have is maybe three or four days before where we'll do. You'll probably do a session where you're pushing. The hardest you'll go for me is maybe 80, 85% of race pace. So it's kind of you ticking the boxes, you kind of getting the heart rate up without absolutely bearing yourself. So it's just kind of a little practice for what the intensity you're going to have when you do step on the start line. And then generally the other days will be easy. I'll probably do something maybe two days before that picks the heart rate up a little bit. Maybe that's a threshold where I do for like 10 or 15 minutes of threshold two days before just to, to keep the heart rate up. Because for me, I find if I have too many easy days, then I get on the start line, I try and do something high heart rate or high intensity. I feel like I kind of feel a little bit sluggish. So for me it's just not, not doing as much load or intensity, but just touching on a little bit in that take a week to make sure. Sure that you feel like it's. You're at a level in your practice for when you do have to go 110 in the race. You kind of feel like it's not. Not foreign from the last few days and not doing much. You kind of. Yeah. Kind of ready to. Ready to go.

Last couple of questions, Stu. I just wanted to know is there any kind of investment you've made that you think has been really worth it to you that athletes could potentially benefit from, benefit from? I know recovery wise People might have a go to foam roller or recovery boots or something, or even just small gadgets. Is there anything that you have as a go to or keep it pretty.

Simple, not too many gadgets. I think for me it's just on the basics. Obviously for me, sleep's huge. If I'm sleeping well, I don't only see it in how I'm training, how I'm recovering, but also performance wise as well. So making sure I'm getting the right amount of sleep to kind of be able to put the days of training together. And the other thing for me is obviously I use a nutritionist as well. So just making sure, not really making sure I'm eating the right things all the time because it's not possible to eat the right things all the time. It's kind of you got to have that moderate approach, but just making sure you're fueling enough. I think especially if you have hard training, it's easy to feel tired and maybe not fuel yourself right or whatever, but having those kind of that set up where you know what you need to do, what foods you should be eating post sessions, post races. Especially when you're jumping from race to race, you kind of got to be on top of making sure you're taking on the protein routines, eating the right carbohydrates to making sure you're giving yourself the best chance to back up the next day for training, but also making sure you're getting the benefits from the training as well. So I think that nutrition side for me, I think is what I've improved a lot the last couple years and I think that's definitely a big thing that kind of helps with improving their performance level.

I don't want to stitch you up here, Stu, but I have heard down the grapevine that you're not the biggest, not so fond of cooking yourself. Is that true and how do you navigate that as a traveling athlete? Athlete?

Oh, it's true. It's definitely true. I'm not sure where that source has come from, but yeah, I kind of, I don't mind ordering. I kind of do the thing. I prefer to pay a professional to do it than me do it myself. But I still try and focus on making sure if I am ordering food or whatever that it's kind of, I'm ticking off the carbohydrates, whether that's pasta or whatever. I'm making sure I'm getting the proteins in as well.

So.

So I'm not a great cook, but I still feel like I cover cover what I need to take on my take on in the training week and take on. Yeah, as I mentioned, carbohydrate proteins or whatever, I'm taking on relatively well throughout the week.

It's a good professional answer. I think your nutritionist would be happy with that. Mate, thanks for. Thanks for jumping on the interview. We've been super keen to talk to you for a long time. We've been loving watching all your Diamond League races and we just love having Aussie mix it in with the best in the world. And you run so gutsy and you get so many good results because of it and that's just exactly what we love to see. So, anything else from you dad, before we finish?

No, just much appreciated your time and really looking forward to seeing how your journey progresses. And we wish you all the best with your aspirations and I know that you're definitely out there doing your best to get the best out of yourself. And good luck with this week, this coming teams cross country, which will be fantastic as a world championship event. So we're really keen to see how you go. So thank you so much, mate and we know your time's valuable and all the listeners have really will really enjoy this podcast.

Appreciate it. No, thanks. Thanks for having me on. I've thoroughly enjoyed my time.

Appreciate it, Stu. Thanks everyone for listening to this episode and we'll see you on the next one.

Sam.