The Art of The Time Trial

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Tribello Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined by your host, former Australian Ironman champion, Jared Donnelly. And I am Jordan Donnelly. In today's episode, we have a lot to discuss. The main topic of today's episode is the art of time trialing. And there's a reason that time trialing is on the forefront of our mind. The Road Masters Nationals Championships was on last week, which include individual time trials and team time trial performances, which we're really excited to talk about today. But also so much happened over that weekend, both from a master's perspective and a trivelo perspective, but also on the elite stage that we want to discuss. So we're really excited to talk about that. But firstly, as always, what has caught your attention?

Without doubt, Jord, watching your journey over the last three years, trying to break the elusive 800 meter sub 2 minute Holy Grail of track and field athletics. And last night we witnessed you not only beat it, but obliterate it. And it was one of the most rewarding and proud moments I've had as a coach, but as a dad as well. To see you struggle for three years and never, ever give up, and the lessons in that are unbelievable for everybody listening. And that's what caught my attention. It's caught my attention for the minute you started that run, to the minute you cross the line. And the whole night last night and all day today, I just can't wipe the smile off my face because the journey is so, so difficult. And that's what makes it so special. And to see you persevere and believe and trust in the process and never doubt it. And even though you didn't achieve it for such a long time, it became more special in the end. And it built up to such a big thing that it was becoming, geez, I'm making this too much. Are we making this too much? Because it seems almost unachievable here. But yeah, you just proved once again that if you trust the process and are 100% committed and do some of the little things that we've banged on about in our podcast for 70 something episodes and you believed it. You actually epitomized, you know, what we've been talking about and, you know, doing the, the result was great, but there was so much satisfaction in seeing that, you know, it, it does work if you do. Actually, Ed Sheeran said, you know, I was a crap singer and a crap musician and the Harder. I worked at it. Funnily enough. There was no, there was no other outcome than me getting better. And, and that's exactly true. Doesn't matter whether you're a singer or a runner or a writer or a, in business, you know, if you continue to try and improve yourself, there's no other outcome that's going to happen. Except you will.

Well, I had a good coach in my corner, so that really helped. Yeah, no, thank you. I, I, firstly, I am, I'm running off very little sleep because I had so much adrenaline last night after the race that I couldn't get to sleep till 2.30am and for any runner that know, knows when you do a big lactic session or race, you get the, the post session or race cough. Runners cough. I'm worried I'm going to be coughing a lot on this podcast because I'm still coughing from last night. But there are some lessons I want to talk about based on what you said. You know, a lot of the lessons that we've spoken about over these podcasts, I just can't believe how many of them applied to me the last month and how many lessons you've ingrained into me that I was able to use the last month since that last race where I, I came onto the podcast and said that I told the story and that actually put a lot of pressure on me over the next month. I had a lot of people asking me about the next race. I had more people than I was probably prepared for, tuned in or waiting for the result, which put a lot of pressure and expectation. And I did put a lot more pressure into expectation myself. So managing that was pretty interesting the last month and I was coming into the race going, am I going to get onto the podcast and say I failed again, or am I going to get on and say I did it and I really didn't want to do the first option.

Isn't that interesting? Some people would think that that could be a negative and you've used it in a positive way to, you know, to motivate you to. I don't want to talk the talk. I want to walk the walk and I want to come back with the success. And, and I think you used it in a really good way. But, but you've got to think about that. That is, you are putting a lot of expectation on yourself, which can be counterproductive, and you've just got to be very careful about doing that. And I think how you handled it was the right way.

It's probably one of the first Lessons I wanted to touch on was you always speak about getting to the start line confident. You want to be standing on the start line and just be able to say I'm confident and I've done the work and I've done the preparation. And what it did do by telling everyone about it was over the month I really put my head down and because I wanted to get to the start line prepared, I didn't want to get there and have that kind of expectation and expectation from others and myself and not be prepared. So it helped throughout the month of training just to stay really focused, especially.

On those days and weeks during the training, training weeks. I don't feel so good today and I've got to do eight two hundreds in 26 seconds and geez, at the start of this session. Oh, this is, this is going to really hurt.

Yeah.

And the motivation of how am I going to feel when I stand on the start line? Am I prepared?

Yeah.

And you could stand there and go, there isn't anything I haven't done in the last month since that last race. It's going to give me that 05 improvement. And you ended up doing two seconds quicker, not 0.05.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean you speak about it from a triathlon sense. Often when you go to a triathlon race it might be interstate and so you have to take your family, pay for accommodation for your family, book flights. It's not just the race you're doing. The race entry is $1,000. You know, there is actually you're putting a lot of expectation on this one race that you're training for if It's a big 70.3 or Ironman and so that can actually have the same positive result if you let it where you go. Well, I'm sacrificing a lot of hours here. Yeah. My family is letting me train this many hours. I'm investing a lot of money that can keep you accountable in your training program. You've got a coach, you know, especially if you're paying for a coach, all that stuff really does help to keep you accountable to the goal in that preparation phase. So when you get to the start line you are confident.

That's a really good point. And I, I was one of the, I was very careful in some of the instructions I wanted to give you pre race but essentially I wanted you to, you know, we had the race plan and I wanted you to just do your thing and not overload you with, you know, with too keep it simple is always going to be the best way. And, and the only one thing I wanted to say was when you do set your race up, from the very minute you start, when the gun goes, and you had a plan to run at this pace to the 200, and then if the pace slowed down, come through and move up so you get to the, you know, the four first 458, and then you, if, you know, if the pace slows down, you have to keep moving, but you get to the top of the straight at the 700 meter mark and you've got 100 to go, you've done all the hard work and are you going to, what. What decision are you going to make there with a hundred to go, when you are absolutely on your limit and your brain's saying, that's enough, I can't do it any. I can't go any harder. I can't. Well, you can look back, not only in the training build, but in that last 700, how well did you prepare for this last hundred? And that was the only thing that I wanted you to think about was don't do all that hard work for 700 and then throw it away. And your last hundred was the most exceptional hundred you've ever run. You lifted. We'd practice that in training, doing 2 hundreds or 150s with the last 50 lifting, high knee lift, and your form at the end. And the 1 percenters, when you drove from half an hour to go to Sherbrooke Forest for the last month, you gave up surfing for a month. You know, all these little 1 percenters, you got new spikes, you know, they all contribute. You had a race under your belt. There's so many things that helped you achieve that one day. And that's the lesson we're trying to get across to the listeners, is, you know, it's the journey and the process that gets the result. The results. The result is the end of all that. You know, you don't get the result without any of that in between stuff. There's so many topics that you could talk about.

Yeah. And we will touch on that with the, with the nationals results as well, because there is. There's real big lessons in that. But measurably, I don't know if the spikes made a difference. So I don't know if, you know, not surfing made a difference, but like we said, we just wanted to put the head down for a month and give it the best shot. And even if measurably, it doesn't make a difference internally, when you're standing on the start line, it does. So even if the spikes don't actually make you go faster, you just, you're doing all these things to give yourself the best chance. Um, I want to take it back to yesterday a little bit because I mean there's, I want it, there's a couple more lessons I want to talk about which just I think apply so well to all racing. Um, and it was a bit of a mental battle throughout the day. Cuz you just having a normal work day, the race is at 8:00pm at night. Um, you know, you're going through kind of waves of emotions of sometimes it's nerves and anxiety and then sometimes it's you know, ready for battle tonight and you know, excited for the race. Um, then times of feeling like oh fuck, I don't want to stuff this up and then feeling confident in the preparation and going through that all day is a definitely an interesting experience. And I'll be honest, I probably stopped working at about 2:00'. Clock. I just, I couldn't concentrate. Spent the afternoon just starting to mentally prepare and I was doing a lot of stretching and just getting the body right and listening to David Goggins. He actually said something that did help me in the last hundred. He said in one of his videos, he said when you don't listen to your body, it will adapt.

So that's such a good sentence.

When your body's screaming at you, don't listen. And if you don't listen to it, it's the only other next option is to adapt. So. And again, measurably. I don't know how true that is, but I just was thinking of that when the lactic's hitting every step, it tells you to slow down at the.

400 to 500 meter mark you start to feel average. Didn't you?

Yeah, yeah.

And you did actually do that there as well.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. So basically from that afternoon right through, it was a funny mental process. You know, I was stretching in the living room for about an hour straight and I was really trying to go light cause I didn't want to overdo it. But my housemate, who she knows nothing about athletics or she's kind of looking at me going, is this a big special race or something? What's going on? And I said, well it is to me, because the way I was preparing, it looked like I was preparing for a national title or something. It was just a Tuesday night PB run.

And that's, that's a good point because it doesn't matter. Every person whether you're riding C grade club race or whether you're riding, you're doing your first triathlon, it's special to you.

Yeah.

And you want to do the best you can.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I love that Will Walker said that last week. You know, some of the best races you do, you don't have to be elite men.

See grade two or bright.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, getting to the race, I was, by the time I got there, I was feeling really confident. I spoke to you about the fact that I was internally feeling more confident than I had throughout the day, but I didn't feel good in the warmup physically. So mentally I felt good. But sometimes in the warmup you feel on. And I did actually last month and then last night I really didn't feel on physically. I felt a bit off. So that throws a bit of a spanner in the works when you've got that confidence. And so I said to you that I was walking to the start line probably a few minutes before the race and I just noticed that I was too relaxed. And in sports science they talk about the optimal arousal. Yeah, optimal arousal level. So it's basically an inverted U. So if you imagine an upside down U, the optimal arousal level is the very top of that U.

The bell curve.

Yeah, yeah. So if you are just to the right of that, then you're over aroused and if you're just to the left of that, you're under aroused. And so you want to try and get. And I was definitely under aroused where I was too relaxed. I found myself. So I kind of worked myself up a little bit, thought about the pressure of the race again to try and bring back some nerves. And because I just felt like I was too relaxed, I didn't want to go into the race just thinking, you're not gonna let. Yeah, you're not gonna let this go by not concentrating properly. But this brings up the next lesson which you always talk about, which is a race most likely isn't going to go perfect. And this is such a thing that you say triathletes fall into. You're rarely going to have a perfect race. Most likely, especially over a six hour race, something is going to go wrong. So you have to have a plan B, you have to have a plan C. And in a two minute race, things happen so quick. And we had kind of plans for every type of scenario, but I went through 400 feeling really average, way more. We were, we were bang on time, actually. I can't believe how perfect the race panned out externally. You know, it went almost as well as it could go, but internally I was really struggling and hit the 500 marks at 300 to go. And in my head I went, geez, I'm really not feeling good. But then having to have that plan B and go, well, what do we do here? Because we're on track, you're not feeling good. So just adjusting slightly, trying to settle down the back straight. And then, yeah, like you said, it's just with 200 to go, you've got a decision, do you? You've done all the work. Do you let it go, let it get away from you or. And for me, I just, I think I dug as deep as I ever have in a race, so that was probably more satisfying that I didn't feel good yet. Found that anyway. But I just couldn't believe all the things that we spoke about, just how so many things had to combine to really get that mindset right. And that was why it was so rewarding. And I think listening to you talk about it from all race forms, I just can't believe how much it applies to everyone. And if you are thinking about all this, all these things, you're going to give yourself the best chance of a successful race.

Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And I think the mindset is so underrated and you are a classic example of that. Actually not feeling that good on the day, but your mind was so powerful and you could see it in your face. For those who understand athletics, 400 meter track, I was at the 200 meter mark calling times for Jordan because he could see the times. They have a big clock at the 400 meter. So I was telling Jordan what his first 200 by calling out, you know, 26, 27 seconds. And then when he gets to the 400, he can see it's 58 and he gets back to the 600. And I'm telling it's 124, 125, 126. Well, he knows he's got 30 seconds to get to the finish line in under two minutes. So there's clear information. And hearing that mentally you think all of a sudden you've got this race as long as you finish and having more information is, is going to mentally help you go, oh God, I've got myself in a good position here and I can all go to do is finish the execute. Whereas if you're getting there, I could see it in your face. I could see your face change from when you could hear that time. It was like, right, yeah, now I'VE got a job to do.

Yeah. That's one of the biggest lessons we talk about with Traveller is data, how valuable data is. And in this running sense it was just a time. We're not even looking at power or average pace or whatever, but especially not feeling good. You can get to that 200 and had I not had any data I could start to panic and go, the race is getting away, I'm feeling average, I'm slowing down because you don't actually know what the time is. So you could, you know, talk yourself out of the race almost. But then to hear that was so reassuring.

But the reason you were feeling average was because you, you were running at a pace that was at your limit, all time history limit. So, so you know, but then hearing that this is okay because I'm under, under schedule.

Yeah.

Is, is, you know, reassuring.

Yeah.

As you said, you know.

Yeah, yeah. So that was, that was it really.

And yeah it was, it was, it was certainly a really. There was so many good lessons in, in the whole night and whether you'd achieved it or not, I'm sure you would have kept going till you. Even though it's been three years and you know, it's, it's like the monkey off your back and you know, just for everybody out there listening, it's, it's just another example of if you want something bad enough you will achieve it no matter how hard or how high the bar is that you've set. And there's been some ridiculous bars being set, but that was one, you know, when you were 18 year old, you know, I think you ran two, five. Yeah, two or four maybe, something like that. And for 10 years, you know, you've, you've gone 203, 202 to a one. So it's not really three years, it's kind of since you're 18 when you're actually able to run fast and to actually, you know, take all that time, it's just so special. You know we're going on a lot about this but the lessons is, what we're trying to get across is, you know, you can improve yourself and, and you know, it just didn't happen because you know, you did, you know, normal training for a month. You know, you changed a lot of things from the last event and if you do, if you do the same things over and over and expect the same result, you're going to get it, the same result. But if you do something well and then add some extras, the 1% is, you know, sleeping better you know, getting better at your nutrition, you know, training with, training with better intent and, and it's, you know, you rattle them off.

Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, I think this transitions into what caught my attention and the topic of the, the discussion today is I was so inspired by the Travelo performances last week at the nationals in the time trial and to see, not only, I mean the performances across the whole were exceptional. Obviously the standouts were seeing our athletes, Grant, Joe and Jules win the individual time trial just to see the execution and then to see six other podiums as well. It's the same lesson, it's just in a different sport. You know, the lessons of preparation. You've seen these guys put their head down, you know, seeing the form they've been in, seeing, seeing the training they did through Covid that led all the way up to and carried through to January 5th this year. And to see that result in a win, there's just something so special about. Yeah. Setting a personal goal. And we always say on the podcast it's not about the podium, it's not about the gold medal. So in my case, last night wasn't a win, it was a pb. But for everyone's results last week, which we're about to talk about, it was really inspiring just to see Doesn't. And the what and the age range as well of, you know, we've got, we've got 35 year old athletes right up to 65, all with the same goal, the same preparation level of preparation, the same intensity. It doesn't matter if it's a national title or not. But that was extra special last week to see, yeah. Grant, Jules and Joe pull out those winning individual performances.

Yeah. And look, it was, it was great, as we just said, to see them win, but there were other guys in our group who, who smashed their PBS and they might have got fifth and fourth and to me that's equally as, you know, as their coach, I'm so wrapped and proud that they've, they've actually executed, prepared and got the desired result which didn't happen to be a podium but was a big improvement on what they've done previously.

And that's a really good point because especially in a time trial, you are competing against yourself. So you can only do your best and if that results in a win, great. And if it doesn't, and I'm going to blindside you a little bit here and ask you because you came second, which you are not used to and I know that would have stung but you also Rode incredibly well. You executed like. And you said to me, you executed as well as you could have. So what are your thoughts kind of a week later on that exact note? Because you've, You've written really well, and that's what you'd say to an athlete.

Yeah, well, it has been about five years since I've lost, so, you know, the expectation on yourself is probably the most severe, and the disappointment for your performance if it was a poor performance is hard to take. But when you perform as well as you can, I can't tell people to be happy with. With that and not do it to myself. So I've got to be. I've got to be happy. And if on the day someone's better than you, then you have to take your hat off to them and go, well done. You are better than me on the day. Fantastic effort. And that's the approach that I have to take. But it's a great fire in my belly to make me push myself, to make sure that I can do everything I can to get as good as that guy. And that's great motivation for me. I love that. But, yeah, I've got to be happy with the performance I did if that's as well as I could do. And it was. The guy's just too, too good for you on the day. And, and, and at the end of the day, that's how you got to cop it. And it's inspirational to, to. For me, I love it.

Yeah.

I could not wait to start training again. It's like, bring on. And of course, we had the team trial and trial the next day, so that was. I think I've never ridden that hard. So it was, it was really good.

Yeah. Yeah.

And for every, every negative situation, there will be a positive. You just got to find it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And as. As tough as it was to cop that, but the positive out of it is I'm super motivated. I can't wait for the next. Next opportunity to time trial again.

It's the response I expected, which is good. So, I mean, it might turn into a little bit of a trivelo love fest, but we do really want to talk about, you know, the overall performance of the individual time trials and team time trials because it's, it was. We, we just were so proud and happy of how all the athletes did. But it's no coincidence because we would say that, you know, time trialing is travel as specialty, and that applies to both individual time trials in cycling, but also the bike leg in a triathlon is an Individual time trial.

Don't devalue the road race. Yeah, we had winners there.

Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, absolutely. But I want to start with when we were there last week and you see everyone warming up. You get to the Trivello section and we have the Tribalo tent, which is great. And there's all of our athletes all warming up on ergos and everyone's in the zone. We've been to Europe and watched cycling races and we've seen the pro teams warm up before sprint classics and these elite races. And I thought I was looking at a pro team. Um, it was just so fun to watch and so cool to see everyone in their element getting as well prepared as possible. And the preparation had started months ago, but on the day, I just loved looking around and just seeing how seriously everyone was taking the preparation and the results showed, you know, that you just looked around and it looked, I looked, I felt like I was looking at a pro team.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Everybody's in their zone and there's not much talk and everybody knows what their warmup routine is. They've got it down pat. It's not something that they're doing for the first time. These guys have done that warm up routine. You know, for some of those guys who've been with me for a long time, they would have done it over a hundred times. And even guys who've just been with us for a short time already know it. And that is key to getting you on the start line on a course where the first 10 seconds you've got to climb a hill over your threshold and then 30 seconds later, you're another two minute hill way over your threshold. So if you're not ready for that, the warmup is key. And just getting there in time and working backwards from your start time, you know, don't underestimate how important those little preparation things are to getting you on the start line in that relaxed manner saying, what's my plan? And you know, that to me was, it's just, I just look around and just go, this is brilliant. Everybody knows their job and there's no one asking me last minute questions. No one. I'm left alone because everybody's ready and focused on what they're meant to be doing.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean that. That leads perfectly into today's topic, which is the art of time trialing. And let's start on that, on that note with the preparation side, because for a lot of people, they would not work so specifically backwards like we do. You know, we, the start time is 12:36, you know, and it's so meticulous that it's get to the start line at 12:31, finish your warm up at 12:26, you know, go the toilet 12:22 or whatever or 12:28 and then it's finished. Your last hard effort at 12:20. So it's, you really warmed up. But there's a certain amount of break towards the time, you know, it's, it's that specific in terms of working backwards, get to the thing two hours before to set up your ergo and everything. And it does take that level of preparation to execute your best possible performance.

Yeah. And there's still people turning up half an hour before their event, running, frantically, getting their number, putting their transponder on and having a five minute warmup and then wondering, oh, I didn't ride too well today. You know, you just can't let those things happen to you. It's, you know, why do all this training? Why, why prepare for months to muck it up on race day? You should have worked out the night before what time you have to leave home. And I'm, I make, you know, I really encourage people to write down their, their schedule for, for the next day from backwards, as you just said from this, your, your start time might be 12:05. So you need to be there at you know, 10:05 or, or 9:35, whatever you, whatever you want. But you need to have two hours and little things like, you know, I go out onto the course if it's, if I'm allowed to and I get there early enough so that I can, because it's not closed, I want to see where the wind is. I want to know before I start. When I get up to this certain point of the course, the wind's going to be across me or when I get to that part, it's going to be a tailwind. So that's going to change a little bit of my race plan because I don't know what the wind's going to be when I'm preparing the plan two days out. You know, I want to know is it changed and that section becomes more important. If it's a headwind, then it's a tailwind. So those little attention to detail things, whether you're doing a triathlon, an 800 or a time trial on the bike, you need to actually have all of those 1 percenters established before you actually start your effort.

These things just add up so much. And you can't underestimate what you've just said about the amount of detail that's required to execute your best performance. And the detail starts from months before. It's not just. There is a Checklist of maybe 20 or 30 things you need to be ticking off from months out. It's the training programs, the biggest one. But then you want to be getting everything else right. And the Trivala athletes we saw do so well last week didn't perform so well because they're the best riders. They perform so well because of all these things. In fact, they're probably not the best riders throughout their group, but they were getting first, second and thirds. Yeah. Because all these things added up and.

They'Re the best prepared.

Yeah. It starts from, you know, weeks out getting their bike resurfaced and then, you know, months out making sure their bike fit is as accurate as possible. And they get used to the bike.

Fit and not one week out.

Yeah.

So you haven't had time to get comfortable in that position because your muscles are going to change the angle from the bike fit. So all of a sudden you're using different sections of your muscle, the hamstring, attachment to the glute, because you've lifted your seat a centimeter, all of a sudden you're using a different angle. So these. These things are so crucial that, you know, and also, if. If you're not doing all those things now, you're not going to do it on the race. So it just formulates a habit of, you know, this is important, so therefore I'm not going to avoid it.

Yeah. And, you know, we've spoken before about athletes taking the 1 percenters to the extreme, doing altitude chant, getting their nutrition right. We had a lot of tribal athletes doing Dr. Harry's nutrition program. He was on the podcast last year, which for a lot of athletes, they lose that extra four to seven kilos power to what ratio skyrockets.

Yeah. And don't underestimate how important your nutrition is, not only for the weight you are on race day, but to give you the right fuel source to actually, when you're under pressure, to be using the right fuels. And if the body doesn't have that in it, it's like getting a petrol tank full of dirty fuel. The car doesn't function very well. Whereas if you've got the beautiful, clean fuel, your body is absolutely using all the resources it can from this great nutrition bank. The electrolyte levels are skyrocketed, your carb levels are fine. You know, your body's adapted to burning the Right. Fuels in a high intensity race situation because you've been training that method of fueling and training for literally months. And you know, it's no coincidence that, you know, Julian's done that. He's lost, you know, X amount of weight. You know, Grant's done exactly the same. You know, Grant was the fastest time trialer in the whole masters division on the day and he's 45 and there were riders from 30 to 70 years of age. So, you know, that was an outstanding performance and Grant's gone from half doing it sort of thing. And I'm not being cruel and Grant would know exactly what I'm talking about here to totally committing himself to this outcome and what a result, you know, of course the win is we're talking about here, but his improvement was just phenomenal just because of those preparation things that he was willing to do to make the difference. And you know, up until then, he's a good, solid rider, but he's a good, solid rider and so is 500 other good, solid riders. What made him a better solid rider to be the fastest time trialer in Australia on that day was all the things that he was prepared to do. And you know, people say, oh yeah, but, but he's always a good time trialer or Joe's one in the last two or three years without losing a time trial. But Joe's great. Well, Joe wasn't a time trialer four years ago. He was one of those really good, solid writers and he's turned himself around to be. And it's the expectation again that, you know, all that Joe should do that, but the reason Joe does it is not because he's the best writer and always has been. It's because he's the best prepared and he's, he's prepared to do what it takes.

It sounds like we harp on this, but there's a, there's a real reason for it. And again, I just can't underestimate this preparedness thing because if you made a checklist of all the things we want our athletes to do, like we said before, there might be 20 or 30 things. And if you're only doing 10 of them, you're giving yourself 30% as much chance to perform well as the person that's doing 30 if you're only doing five of them. And we see plenty of examples of people not ever riding the course before a time trial in cycling and triathlons, never going into a course recon.

You.

Know, missing some really key things that they should be doing. And if you're missing these things, you're just disadvantaging yourself compared to the person who's ticking all of them. And again, it comes to the conversation, some people might say it's extreme, you know, how like the altitude, that kind of thing. How much do you really want to do? How much do you want to spend? But some of the costly ones you don't have to do. And we've spoken about this before, but there are some real fundamentals that don't cost money. It'll cost time and energy, like doing the course recon, studying the corners, that kind of thing. But if you're going to turn up to these events and you want to do as well as you can, why.

Wouldn'T you give yourself more assistance? And, and the course recon's a tough one because if you're doing a race in Cairns or Perth and you live in Tasmania, but you know you're going to go to the venue eventually, so get in the car and drive the course. If you haven't got time to ride it, but get there early enough, I don't expect you to go and do a recon three weeks before. If you live, you know, 200k away from the event. And you know, we still did that for Ballarat, but, but you know, when you, for, for Geelong, 70.3, you make sure that you're over the course the day before in your car. Or if you get there two days earlier, you can ride it easily, sections of it, because it's a 245k loop. The run, you need to know the run course. You roll your bike over the 7k loops or I think it's 11k, whatever it is, you know, depending on what the course is. You find out about the course and, and there's ways and means of doing it, even if you live miles away, to make sure that come race day you're familiar with where the turns are and where the hard parts are and where the potential wind is.

Yeah.

And to underestimate those key things is, is just giving yourself less opportunity to, to perform better than you would eventually do on the day.

Yeah. So the art of time trialing, a big section starts on how prepared you are before you even get to the race. And then there is so much in the execution. But talk me through the race plan, side of time trialing and what you said to the athletes going into Ballarat because it was a bit of different advice to what they're used to.

Yeah. And look, pretty much I said everything I've taught you about time trialling, kind of disregard for this particular event because of the course, the course they selected at Ballarat for the time trial, which is just not a normal time trial course. It's got, it's got technical sections, it's got fast downhills, unbelievably fast, dangerous corners. It's got a lot of turns and it's got two really extreme hills. And you do that three times. You do that, you know, that course, three laps of the same course.

So, so extreme the hills were that you tested the course on a road bike and time trial bike just to make sure that time trial bike was faster.

Yep. And the time trial bike was going to be faster with the downhill section. So what you might lose in the uphills on the lighter road bike, you certainly made up for it. And if you had the right gearing. So the next thing was to make sure you had the right gearing. But the plan for the course was not to ride it like a normal time trial, where I'm always saying, keep it even, you know, don't have spikes, especially for triathlon, you know, we don't want to have spikes that are going to cost us energy and, and really cause us to falter in the run. But even in a time trial, if you do too many spikes, too many burn, too many matches, too much power spikes, we're talking here, if you ride power that's too above, you're going to build the lactate up in your body and eventually that's going to accumulate, so you actually can't ride properly. At some point, your heart rate's going to go through the red zone, and all of a sudden you can't push the pedals even though you are as fit as possible. You are going to put yourself into the zone where you basically can't pedal properly even though you want to. You're mentally prepared to do it. But once lactate, that's a physiological thing that you can't, you know, mentally you can't perform. You can still finish, but you can't perform it to where you want to perform. So the advice was, this is a, you know, over one, one lap of the course is we had four or five vital sections where in time trialing, the biggest gains are in the hardest sections. The smallest gains are in the easiest sections. So the question is to each athlete, tell me what the hardest sections are. Well, that's obvious up the hill. Okay? So we need to get the most value up of this hill because we're going to do it three times. On this particular course. So if you can gain five or six seconds on your opponent on that hill, doing it three times, that's 15 or 18 seconds. And most of the races were won by less than 10 seconds or 30 seconds. You know, they're the time gaps. And if you multiply everything by three laps, you know, two or three seconds on this corner, two seconds on that corner, there's like, I think 15 corners. Well, there's 30 seconds in cornering, you know, and so knowing the course, understanding the course requirements can give you an advantage without being a better athlete, without adding any extra power, you know, just by being technically clever. Getting aero on the downhill when you're doing 60Ks an hour, when the guy beside you might be doing 59.5. Pedaling, pedaling really hard. Well, you know, just recover there, you know, get your heart rate down. They're the things you should be thinking about. Get aero, get tucked, you know, corner properly at 65, 70Ks an hour. Lean the bike over. These are the things you got to think about rather than the power. Yeah, and don't worry about your average power for this ride. It's. It's the power for those sections that's important. So in the downhill section, which was two and a half minutes, you know, I think the average speed was 57Ks an hour. Well, most of the riders were within five seconds of each other, but still three laps of that, still 15 seconds. But it's not as much of as a gain as, as the. If you actually beat someone by 10 or 12 seconds on the hill, which could end up being 34 seconds. So really the advice in the course was to write it like an interval training session. And you just got to think like, I've got to really be at my limit on the hills, the two hills on that one lap and maximize my gains there, because I know that I'm going to get a recovery. So think of it, ride hard, recover like an interval session. Over, under, over, under. So once we drill that into everybody, that was their race strategy. And the only thing you worry about is they're going to go too hard on the hill. So that's the next thing you talk about, is what's the optimum number for time? Because it was a 2 minute between 155 and a 2 minute 30 hill, you know, and you have to do that three times. Plus there was a hill before it that was a minute 30 or something at the same power, 110 to 115%. That's the range, I'm saying You can't afford to go over 115% here on the last lap. You can, because you've got one to go. And you know that this is the last hard hill and it's pretty much downhill except for the last section of the course, which is uphill again. But, you know, knowing all these details, knowing when to do your effort harder, it's so technical on that course. And I'm sure there were lots of riders who just were probably as equally as good as our riders, but they hadn't planned the strategy of how to attack that course. And it was, you know, no other time trial courses like that. You know, we do time trial races everywhere. And, you know, I'm, you know, the only other course is Q Boulevard in Melbourne, where it's basically just rolling hills and it's a series of intervals over, recover, over recover. And so they're the sort of things that was a huge advantage for our guys to, to have a race plan that, you know, because I'd trialed it three different times, I'd done it as a steady state pressure on the pedals, and I was literally miles slower doing it that way than doing it the way that the interval style, which is not the way to time trial.

Yeah, and that's why it's an art, isn't it? Because just all these things add up and there's just, there's so much to think about in terms of your execution. And when you combine what we've said about preparation into the execution of the race plan, you can see how, and we have plenty of examples of this with tribal athletes where, especially in a triathlon time trial where the event is 40k or 90k for an Olympic or 70.3, and we have riders who are finishing 3 or 4 minutes slower than other tribal athletes, but they're much better athletes than them, but they're not getting the art of time trialing right, you know, and the worst athlete is executing better across in terms of this evenness, in terms of their preparation, in terms of knowing the course, in terms of their bike fit and it's resulting in a faster time. Even though we've just seen this play out so many times throughout the years where worse athletes are smashing better athletes. And that just proves to me how much of an art it is and how much, you know, you have to take this stuff seriously.

It's such a great point because you just. If you lined up two athletes, A and B, one is really talented, one has got really good preparation, and the talented person cares nothing about the preparation, the secondary, physically better athlete performs better. It's like it's 99 out of 100 unless the, you know, I was actually talking about it on the ride today was, you know, there's so many examples of people who, because they're so fit, they get away with making mistakes in road races because of their superior fitness. Yet the really clever riders are superior fit, but they don't get caught in the wind, they don't get caught at the back of the peloton, they don't attack at the wrong time, they're saving their bickies, they don't lose the wheel on a fast left hand corner and have to accelerate back up, which has burnt some energy which is going to cost them down the track. They don't do any of those mistakes. And the guy who's supremely fit, who's not clever, he's going to get smashed because he's making so many errors that are costing him energy. And at the end of the day, you know, the clever rider is still going to beat and if they were both physically equal, the clever rider is going to smash that person. So, you know, the example you've just said is spot on. It's, you know, don't underestimate that just because you're well prepared. Our program well prepares everybody. There's no doubt about that. That's the first and foremost thing that we. Without that, you actually can't even be in this position. But the next level is to do all these other things, these other percentage things. And as you said, if you listed 30 things and the really talented athlete only did five of them and the not so talented athlete did 30 of them, he's going to come out on top because he's ticked off all the things that are necessary to get the right outcome to get his pb.

Yeah. And the reason that I say to people, you know, time trialing is tribalo specialty is because of everything you just said, the fact that we practice it the most, it's ingrained into the programming. You know, everyone is doing specific time trial practice, you know, every Tuesday morning, etc. And the beauty is when you take all these individual time trials, who are this prepared and put them in a team together, what happens is a result of what we had in the team's time trial, which was an absolute clean sweep. So I did want to shout out the results of the team time trials after the individual the day after. Yeah, the Triweiler teams just really swept it and I'm tooting the horn of our own athletes here. But it just has to be mentioned that, you know, we really looked like well drilled, oiled machines who had practiced together, who each individual had prepared so well and as a team it just resulted in exceptional performances on the day.

The examples are just extreme. There's so many other teams who had really good athletes and, and look, getting your own performance to be right on the day to understand the nuances of the course and when to go hard and when to go easy. Try putting four people together who have got different abilities and different strengths and different weaknesses, trying to get them to stay together as a unit because that's what it is. The team's time trial, it's such a harder job than the individual time trial as a coach. And so that's why we spend a lot of time training together as teams. And unfortunately the teams that we were against don't, they choose not to do that or don't have the opportunity, doesn't matter, but they didn't do it. Whereas we got there and you know, we know that we've got, in four rider team, we've got definitely all four riders aren't the same ability. So we've got someone who's our best rider, second best, third best and fourth best. Know your role. If you're fourth best, your role is not to get dropped and to help if you can. If you're the best rider, your role is to stay on the front longer and not drop everybody and not show off. And so I saw teams from other clubs with really good riders who left their team and rode off. It's a team's time trial, it's not an individual time trial. And you know, that's just defeating the whole purpose of planning and preparation and, and what a terrible time those other teams were having. And when I'm on the course watching teams go past with gaps and, and riders being dropped, you know, it's, I'm shaking my head going, you know, we've got these guys because they are just a disarray. They have no concept of how to, how to write a team's time trial for a start. So our preparedness in that is exceptional. And you know, I just, I just love the way our guys all got together as a unit, as a team. They had their own little lap going. You know, what's our race plan? You know, these are the areas where we need to focus on, you know, the tough areas, the headwind, the hills, who's stronger, who should be on the front longer, what's our order, who should go first, second Third and fourth. So we've given all that documentation out, you know, at the start, this is. You know, we've got a. I've written an article which is only to the Trivalo people. And they all know, you know, we go through all the points. And so it's no coincidence that come race day, out of the four teams we enter, three of them win a national title. And one team, unfortunately, had one writer down, so they end up with third. But, you know, what is that? We just got the best riders. Have we? Well, not really. We just got the best prepared people.

Yeah.

And, you know, at the end of the day, that's what makes it so much fun, is that your. Your confidence in the process is. And the process is enjoyable, too, because, you know, for me to get up at 3:55 on a Tuesday morning to get down to meet the group at. At 5:30 to do the session, knowing there's going to be possibly 20 guys waiting, I can get out of bed to do that because that's part of the process. And I know that come race day at the nationals, we're going to be so happy we did that for the last 26 weeks. And what a payoff it is. And I've never been so more confident in my life. When I get on the start line with these guys around me, we're going into battle together. And the camaraderie and the excitement of sharing a victory, um, and, you know, things went wrong for every one of those teams.

That's the next point.

And.

Yeah, well, just watching all the teams, it was incredible how so many different things went wrong. And I had to do this lesson again of what's the next plan? What's the next plan? Are you switched on and having practiced, you could adjust. But so many things went wrong to result in a lot. Few of the teams were all within the tribalo teams. Well, different age groups, all within 20 or 30 seconds of each other. And it was just funny how that result happened with so many different things happening.

Yeah. On paper, it looks like we just won all those races.

But.

But, you know, one of the age groups dropped their chain.

Yeah.

One of the better riders dropped their chain.

Yeah.

And, you know, Joe won't mind me saying that, but he rode solo for a lap and a half to support the team in case one of the other riders was struggling. And guess what? One of the other riders did struggle, did his job, and Joe was able to get back on for that team to still win. You know, just plan B. Yeah. Plan C. Yeah. In Our race, we had a similar scenario. And then our plan is if we drop one rider, then the next worst rider has to be more protected.

Yeah.

And he does way less turns so that we get three to the finish. Because it's taken on your best three riders. And so you've got to have another plan. You can't just go in blinding least thinking this is how it's going to turn out. Because such a demanding course with that hill is, you know, is things are going to happen. And it was, it was so rewarding. People just see the result, but they don't see what happened to get that result.

Yeah, it was so fun to watch and it was so rewarding and enjoyable to watch the presentations, to see the team camaraderie and everyone get their medals together. And just everyone had been through the same amount of work, you know, doing the team's time trial practice on Tuesday mornings together. It was unreal reward to see all these lessons come to fruition. All the preparation stuff that we talk about, all of it come together to result in that. And the team's time trial is such a fun event. It really looks professional. I would love to see cycling Australia push it more, you know, push more clubs to get it, you know, maybe have another event throughout the year for it, you know, or have a couple more events where people can get more race practice in. Because I'd love to see it become a really deep competition and become kind of a stalwart for master cycling. I think it would be really cool.

Yeah, there's so many examples like the milers club that you went to in athletics that just started from people wanting to just have a trial at pbs, you know, so they started with one or two races and now there's. How many races?

Yeah, there was 40 races last year.

40 races of people just turning up to do a PB. But, you know, getting that jersey on the dais that, the Australian national jersey, that's, you know, that's like winning a premiership with your mates. That can never be taken away from you. That those four people that you shared that jersey with, that photo you've got with you in the national jersey. And you'll never, you'll get, you know, in Trivalo we get to where we have the jersey ride.

Yeah.

And that's a great day for everybody who every, anybody who's won a national jersey, we have bunch ride. And wherever you are in Australia, if you're a Trivalo athlete, you wear your national jersey on your next available bunch ride and people do that with pride and that's. It's like the victory drive home. You know, you've achieved everything. Your satisfaction of driving home. I just did that. I now have a national jersey. I'm a national champion and that can never be taken away from it. Now how well have you gone in your, in your cycling career? Have you done okay? Yeah, yeah, I won the national teams time trial and I've got a jersey hanging up. You know, it's something that'll always be there. Just like the premiership you've won at the netball or the premiership you won in the footy, in the footy club or whatever sport it is a team C grade tour.

Bright. Yeah, that's not a team, but yeah.

It means so much to you. And those group of guys you shared it with, you'll always have that in common. So there's so many little aspects of, of of it that, that make it, make the journey so much fun because the, the destination certainly is rewarding.

Yeah, definitely. To finish off. How good were the elite road races on Sunday? Great performance by Sarah Roy in the women's to have a solo break to the win. Very, just dominant performance.

And then she must have watched Julian Payne as move the night before. Solo breakaway at the top of the hill and road to victory. Yeah, that was fantastic to see her. And she really had a good year. Before COVID she was in the individual time trial. I remember watching her, and she was right up there and she was in the road race. So she's, she's a super talent. And there's lots of girls who are really improving. You know, Sarah Gigante is an unbelievable talent and a little bit more racecraft. You know, she'll, she'll be a force to be reckoned with. So it's exciting to see so many fitness girls coming through the, the Australian ranks. And of course, the Australian males have always dominated the scene. But, you know, this is a, this is really in. It's exciting to me to see the females and how they're, how they're racing and performing and training.

And good to see the strength of bike exchange compared to the men's as well. I mean, the women's bike exchange dominated, whereas the men's really struggled.

Yes. And they both got the same result. So it just looks like bike exchange dominated. But if you look closely at how they got there. Oh, talk about learning a lesson about it's never over till it's over. Cam Meyer, I've got to say that is, that's a Houdini effort there. And, and Talk about team Luke Durbridge. If you were going into battle, who's the first person you'd pick? It would be him. He's just an epitome of sacrifice.

That's one of the greatest team performances I think I've ever seen on the bike.

Coming back from the dead, he was dropped three times.

Amazing.

Cam was dropped off the main bunch.

Yeah.

You know, not even the breakaway. He was dropped off the main bunch.

It shows how exciting the race was. It was just chopped and changed so much.

It's one of the most exciting races. And you and I have seen a lot of races in Europe, but as a national title, you didn't know who's going to win till last second, the last metre. And you know, Kel o' Brien probably should have won that race. Luke Plebs probably should have won that race, but Cam Meyer won that race and that's who will be remembered. But, yeah, there was certainly lots of team tactics going on. There were lots of highs and lows. And I think Cam Meyer said something to Kel o', Brien. You're only as good as your worst lap. I think that was really good advice. Something along those lines is you're going to have bad phases in the race. It's how you can deal with those bad laps.

That was one of the greatest bits of advice, I think any athlete could say is, yeah, how well can you deal with the bad part of the race? And if everyone can remember that because you just. The chances of you feeling good an entire race are just so slim. So can you manage the bad sections again, so applicable to triathlon? I feel like with all these lessons we talk about, they're always exaggerated with triathlon because it's such a longer event. Yes, six hours. So you're much more likely to have a bad patch.

Look, only the pros in the elite cycling ride four to six hours in races. But, yeah, if you think that you're the only one feeling bad, you've got to stop thinking that. Because around you, there's people who are feeling worse, who have got this great blank poker face that they're not giving away, that, you know, you look at some guy pedaling beautifully, looking fine, and then the next thing, 30 seconds later, he's off the back, blown up. And going by body language is not something that you should be doing too much. You know, I can definitely tell when someone's struggling, when they go to a big gear and start grinding. That's a telltale sign to me. But. But generally I get shocked when I see someone pedaling quite well, and then they just explode. So other people are feeling crap during the race. You've just got to think that if this is hurting me and I think I'm pretty fit, what is it doing to the other people? So you've got to actually think about it like that, because there'd be times where you think, oh, is it just me that's really struggling today? Well, if you look around, there's probably. If you're able to read people's minds, you know, 50% of the people are feeling worse than you, so. So, you know, you've got to. You've got to think that there are bad patches, and I've just got to get through this.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

I think as a. As an event, that was one of the best road races I've seen in a long time. And I was sitting on my rollers, pedaling away, normally on Zwift, but I was actually on the rollers watching the last 60K. And I was just meant to be riding zone one and two. And as they were going up the hill, my cadence started to improve and my power started to go. I'm going, oh, I was just. As they were attacking, and it was so motivating just riding. I was laughing to myself, going, well, yeah. Just getting carried away with this, how exciting this race is. And. And, you know, just the. The never, ever give up. And. And look, there's. There's tactics there that, you know, in hindsight. It's always easy in hindsight to say he shouldn't have done that and shouldn't attacked. With 65k to go, he's probably the best rider in the race, Luke. And yet, you know, I think it. You went way too early, and had he done that with two laps to go, probably could have won the race. But, you know, that's just. That's cycling, and hopefully we can learn lessons on about, you know, I suppose respecting the. The field you're racing against and the fact that I heard he hadn't done a race of that distance before, so it was a really bold thing to do. I don't know whether that was a plan for Cal to win. So we don't know the tactics, but. But seemed like it was. It probably was a good setup for Cal, and had he not cramped, he probably could have won. So there's lots in it that we don't really know. But. But from an outsider's point of view, that was. What makes it intriguing is to what. What the tactics are.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's just having the ability to have a plan B or plan C. In Cammy and Luke Durbidge's case, you know, the amount of times I got dropped and came back and the workload he did and just to. Yeah, like you said, never, ever give up. Right to the line. I loved when he said that he'd been in that position before that Kelly Ryan was in where you're out in front, guys are mowing you down. He'd been. His legs were heavy. He said, I know that feeling and it's horrible. So that was his motivation when he was 60 meters behind Kelly O', Brien. He just said, I'm not going to give up to the line. And if he didn't have that mindset, he would have gone in, but he got in with five minutes to go.

Yeah, it was well done. Cam's not a sprinter. It was really. It was a mindset of, you know, all of the experiences he's had in the past. And he's also been a breakaway leader for a lot of the race and lost camera. He's. Other scenarios. Jack Bobbridge has done exactly the same thing and gone too early and lost. Cam's lost more races on the national titles. You know, that he should have won and yet he's won back to back. And he should not have probably won that one. But. But that's the swings and roundabouts. But he won that because it was almost 15 years of. Of experiences that enabled him to keep. Keep the faith that if he just keeps in the race, keeps himself in. In contact, you never know what's going to happen next. And I do say that a lot. You know, live the moment because you never know what's going to happen next. Enjoy the. The process and the moment you. Whatever you're doing in life, because tomorrow, who knows what's going to happen to you. So make the most of every opportunity. And I think that was. He's just. He's just hanging in there and. And all of a sudden the race opens up with a meter to go and he gets in front and. And look, you know, seeing the picture of him dropping his bike and then going over to Durbridge and. And just saying, I only won this because of you. That, to me, was the epitome of great sportsmanship. You know, not, not, not an I am person. It was a person who understands what it takes. And that's what's admirable about Cam Maya. I just think he's the ultimate in super talented. He's probably one of the best track riders in the world at the moment. And, and for him to, to win a road race two years in a row is pretty exceptional. But he understood that it wasn't just him, it was, you know, through the efforts of Luke Durbridge and he put a photo up on his own insta story. It was just not him winning the race, crossing the line, it was him hugging Luke Durbridge and that. That was fantastic.

Yeah, no, yeah, I, I absolutely loved watching it, to be honest. I have just enjoyed sports so much last week. I'm obviously on cloud nine today after last night, but I just loved the fact that we had the Masters individual time trial and team time trial and crit and road race happening. And our expert SBS commentators Matthew Keane and Dave McKenzie were there from start, from the very start on the Wednesday in all the Masters races, commentating every athlete, presenting all the medals right through to the end of the road race on Sunday. It's just so good for the sport. It's so good to see. And even from the level of, you know, the athletics event last night, to see the organizers there, they're commentating every race and there's, there's a grade right through down to G or J grade and every athlete's getting a go. And that's what it's all about, you know, everyone just wanting to run a pb and triathlon's very much like that as well. It's. It's a PB sport and there are podiums, but I just love being around that atmosphere and this last week really reminded me of that, of how good it is to be in that. And I think that for athletes, it's really important that you choose a goal to get involved in that, because it's so rewarding when you get to be a part of these events. And, yeah, whether you are running a random track race on a weeknight, going to the Masters titles or getting to watch the elite, the elite go round, all the lessons are the same, but the environment's really fun to be in as well. And I've had a really enjoyable week of sport.

Yeah. And one of the things I wanted to point out was the teams time trial. The amount of female teams that entered this year, it was terrific. It was double from last year and the girls were having a ball, you know, in all the age categories and the competition was really solid and I think they just loved getting up on that dais and getting their medals and getting their jersey, national jerseys. And I just want to encourage any teams who think, you know, get together with Your, with your team teammates and, and you know, get ready for next year and you've got a whole year to prepare and plan for it. Why not start now? And, and that's what it takes, it takes you to start thinking about that. Who's going to be in your team? Who do you want to be in your team? And that's how, you know, the Milers Club started. You know, word of mouth saying this is a great event to be a part of. Just like you're talking about having the Matt keenans and Dave McKenzie's commentator and present, you know, read out your name and your, you know, over over 60 competitor. It means a lot, you know, for the guys who are commentating on Peter Sagan one day and, and presenting you another day. It's it, you know, it's, it's special for people who, who are putting in the work and I think it's, that's how the sport's going to grow. Well, I'm not talking about cycling, I'm talking about any sport. If, if at the grassroots level people are, you know, really putting in the time, the sport will boom. And that's kind of what we need, I think. Yeah, and triathlon's a great example of what other sports can, could really do. It's a different topic we're talking about. Yeah, but it's certainly, you know, they could learn the lessons because the PB thing is just, you know, trying to do better than you did last time, better than you did the day before. Tomorrow you want to do better than you do today. That's kind of what, what we're trying to push here.

Yeah.

And sure, we talked a lot about the winners. Yeah, but we don't do that a lot. But, but you know, if you're just improving and you know, I heard someone last night as I was walking away, one coach was saying to his athlete, she's, she said, oh, I'm not really happy with that. And he said, no, you're improving and it's just one day at a time. Be patient. It was just like rattling off all the cliches, you know, it's not going to happen overnight.

You know, she said, it's one second at a time, you know, one second.

One second at a time.

Bike riders can think about that with FTP. Like, you know, a lot of bike riders want a 10 watt improvement every.

Time, one more at a time. And, and it's so true. It's a journey. And, and you know, you're, you're enthusiastic and passionate about this journey. Be the same about the time period that you need to achieve it. And there's so many things to learn, as we've talked about so often. It's just not turning up and competing, it's just being well prepared.

I'll attest to that because it took me 10 years to wipe off four seconds. That's a long time per second.

That's a good way to finish, I think.

Yeah. And, yeah, I guess I'll finish by saying I thoroughly enjoyed having Matthew Keenan and Dave McKenzie give Trivelo a big rap on the commentary. They were like, they were going, geez, TR really, really dominating here. I couldn't have enjoyed that anymore.

So terrific.

That's it for this episode. It was a really big conversation, one of our longer episodes, but like we said at the start, a lot to discuss and it's really a conclusion of all the lessons that we talk about coming to fruition in real life racing. And so that's what we wanted to talk about today. We hope you've enjoyed the episode. Just as a final note, we actually had. We do get some emails back or questions from the podcast and we actually had someone ask if we do Trivelo coaching for international. And just for any of our international listeners. I can see the demographics of who listens. We do have a lot of people in Asia, in the uk listening in New Zealand and other countries. We do do international coaching. So if you do want to get involved, you can go to our website, travelocoaching.com and inquire through there, just so that's clear for those international listeners. But thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next episode.