The Exact Type Of Workouts That Will Improve Your Running Speed

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined as always, but your host, Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly, and I am Jordan Donnelly. In today's episode, we are talking about running workouts, the exact type of workouts that will help you improve your running speed. So, so which workouts are going to help you improve your speed, but also how important is speed really in a triathlon? Because it is an, is a endurance event. So the longer the event, the less speed matters, or so we think. So how much speed work can you actually afford to do as a triathlete and how much should you really be doing? So there's a lot in this discussion today and there are some key differences for triathletes that you need to be aware of when thinking about speed. But first, as always, what's caught your attention? Dad.

The majority of Australia has been in heat wave conditions recently. So training in the heat is probably the thing that's on my mind. And how best to manage your training sessions knowing that you could be facing 38, 42 degree temperatures. The tour Down End is a classic example. Every year, the Australian Open tennis, you're guaranteed to have temperatures that are unsafe for athletes to really compete at the top of their level. And you know, really that's, that's caught my attention. What should we be doing about knowing when it's going to be temperatures like that? Should we train?

What's your answer?

Well, there's a little bit of data telling us that heat acclimatization increases your haemoglobin level. So there is some positive in training in the heat. Another positive is if your race happens to be hitting 35 to 40 degrees and you've never trained in it, the body's going to really struggle. So you need some adaptation in training in the heat. The example I would give is for a weekend, if you're doing an endurance ride or an endurance run and you know that by 10 o' clock it's going to be 36 and going up from 10 o'.

Clock.

If I knew my race had some aspect that's going to be dealing with temperatures similar to that. The obvious one would be Hawaii. We've had Geelong at 40 degrees in a 70.3. We've had Busselton, similar temperatures, 40 degrees. So I would have aspects of my program. For example, if I'm doing a six hour ride, I would start at maybe 6 o' clock and go till 10. I've got four hours between 25 degrees and 35 degrees and then the last two hours 35 degrees to 40, whatever it's going to be. So I'm just edging my, my adaptation over a period of weeks during the summer. So that slowly but surely my body could cope with, you know, one hour, then two hours, then three hours. So that come race day, you know, it can throw any temperature at me. I can cope. So yes, we actually do need to really get our body to adapt. And the opposite side is if you actually do get heat stroke in a training session, that's way too hard for the given temperatures and that's the key point. How hard do you train on those hot days? So I'm not a fan of pushing hard sessions, hill repeats, high intensity efforts in the heat, that it needs to be kind of the end of your session.

No way. I said hill repeats then because we had an athlete do hill repeats in 37 degrees a couple of days ago and it's got heat stroke and really suffered. Yeah.

So, so that's really caught my attention. And, and you've got to be sensible, you know, you need to be doing an easy type of training session in the heat. It's like trying to train at altitude. You can't do massive, high, intense efforts at altitude because you basically can't breathe and you need to, you know, train at altitude. But it needs to be compatible, like training at heat. It needs to be, you know, you.

Need to be able to adapt to it.

That's right.

Give your body a chance.

Yes. Not, not have five more days off after you've done a session in the heat and got heat stroke.

Yeah. So there's a fine line between the adaptation phase, which is always going to be uncomfortable, and, but not pushing that so far that you do your whole session in the heat and you already just can't actually cope with that. It's. You're trying to get too much adaptation too quickly.

Yeah. Common sense has to prevail. So that's what that's really, you know, it's, it, it's a topic that never gets talked about, but it is really crucial during summer in Australia, especially where we've got variations in temperature, you know, depending on where you live in Australia. You know, if you're in the north part of Australia, you've got similar temperatures pretty even all year round. But if you're in the southern part of Australia, you've got extreme cold and extreme hot that surpass the northern, you know, part of Australia's temperature range. So you, you really need to not be used to training at 15 degrees when your race is going to be at 30.

And the study you sent me on the adaptation of the body to five weeks of and it was just easy. Training in the heat promoted a hemoglobin increase that can't be understated because that is, you know, the equivalent effect.

Significant.

Yeah. Of what altitude training is, is achieving. And so you're not just doing it so that you get used to the feeling of the heat. Your body actually adapts in a really positive way.

Yeah, there's a great study that Dr. Harry sent across and I love reading stuff like that and it's all those little 1 percenters that you know that is a positive. Definitely.

Yeah, absolutely. Now that's a good one. What caught my attention this week was actually the Zatopec 10 race was on, which is the 10,000 meter national championships in athletics. It's a great night of racing. They have races from 800 all the way up to 10k. And you see some of the best athletes in Australia running that race normally. And this was no exception. There were some absolutely elite athletes running across these events. And there was an interview with one of the athletes who is hoping to qualify for Tokyo Olympics. And they asked him what he was expecting to perform in the 1500 meters, how he was expected to go. And he gave an answer that I think really applies to a lot of our athletes and triathletes and cyclists and what they need to know about their season and how to approach a season. Because it was quite a big race and it was, it was the first kind of pro race all these guys have had in a long time. And so he said, you know, his PB is 334I think for 1500 meters. He said coming into it, I really hope to just run under 340. That's my expectation of myself in really good form, but that's what I expect. And then the next race in a month or two I'd hope to run in 336 ish. And then a month or two after that hope to break 335 and get, get qualified for Tokyo Olympics. And I thought that was such a well measured answer to understanding where he's at in his season. He's not peaking right now, so don't expect himself to run a PB because running 339, 340 is way off his pace. You know, it's five or six seconds over 1500 meters. It's, it's way off what he's capable of. But there's no ego in his answer. He was just really measured and he's thinking that this is how I'm going to run now, knowing that I'm going to run a bit faster in one to two months, knowing that I can peak a little bit after that. And we all need to think that way with our season and not just try and be peaking for absolutely every race because it's a. It was a televised event last night. You know, you want to perform your best. There's a lot of pressure and he just wasn't falling trapped that at all. And I thought that was just a really good answer.

Yeah, spot on with everything you've said there. January is January. The Olympics are in July or August.

Are they actually don't know when they are this year.

They might not be on anyway, but. But the point to make is your form is your form where you're at in that particular build. And we did talk about that in the last podcast, you know, understanding the data for where you're at. And you don't want to be running a 331 unless you're going to run a 329 come race day. You don't want to be holding a 3:31 from January to July. It's actually not possible. There's got to be highs and lows in your program. Somewhere along the line, you've got to have. You can't hold and maintain that. So it's a really, it's a really good point.

Yeah. Yeah, great. Well, let's get into the topic of today's episode. It's a good one. It's going to provoke a lot of discussion because speed and triathletes don't always go together. So we're going to try and debunk kind of what you need to know about speed as a triathlete. So I'll start by asking, I mean, how important is running speed for triathletes?

There's no doubt about you need to improve your overall running ability. So unless, unless you're going to provide overload in training, you're going to stay the same runner. So that's the first point that has to be made. But what are the risks and reward in running fast sessions? So as an ironman, and we always say this, it depends on what the event is. And look, triathlon, really, they're almost four different events, four different sports to prepare for a marathon in an Ironman, a half iron, half marathon in a 70.3, a 10k in an Olympic and a 5k in a sprint event.

We are talking about almost four entirely different sports.

Yep. So the answer depends. You know, if you're training for the Ironman, the speed is really low on the scale of importance. And if you're training for Olympic distance, you, I think the goal you're always trying to aim at is to get your PB fresh 10k or 5k to almost replicate off the bike. The closer you can get that I think that's more an important goal rather than trying to, you know, I still believe you need to have overload to try and improve. So you say you're a 4 minute K pace runner over 10K. You know, you've been doing that for five years. You can run 40 minutes, 39, 50, 40, 20, that's your range. The only way you're going to get better is to do some higher intensity runs in training so that your body can cope with 4, sorry, 3:54 pace or 3:50 pace or 3:45 pace so that when you come to do another time trial or 10k road race, your body's used to that. But if your body will do whatever it's been doing in training. So if you've just been training at 4 plus minute K pace, you won't ever run faster than 40 minutes. So that's a clear cut answer.

Especially I mean the Olympic distance is known as the quote unquote shorter distance. But it is not a short event and a 10k isn't still not a fast event. Unless you're a professional. You're not running quick in a 10k.

No, no. And when I say 4 minute k pace for Olympic distance, the majority of, we're talking about age group athletes here. So let's get that straight as well. We're not talking about Ryan Grigson's of the world or Jordan Williams who are, you know, I would have run you know, sub 32. They're running 250 something pace.

That's quick.

Yeah, for, for there. So we're not talking about those athletes, they need speed work all the time to be able to run that fast. We're talking about the everyday triathlete or the everyday cyclist or runner. You know, it's, it's relevant to you know, 6 minute K pace. You know, if you want to improve 60 minutes in your 10K, you want to break 60 minutes. You have to do some training at 5:50 or 5:45 or 5:40. So there's a lot of sessions that are available to each athlete that will enable you to do that with the risk that we always talk about is the downside. The upside is do those sessions. The downside is do those sessions and you may not get to the start line because the age grouper is normally, you know, sure, we've got age groupers who are 20 to 25, 25 to 30, but the majority of age groupers are probably 35 and above. And therefore the risk of injury as a runner is far greater than a younger guy who maybe hasn't been running for 20 years. You know, he's only taken up running for two or three years as a triathlete. So the body's got relatively few niggles. So you've got to really try and protect the body so it can get to the start line. So the risk reward with doing a lot more faster speed work as an age grouper is not there. The goal we said before, trying to get your fresh run off the bike. So trying to get your fresh PB as close as possible to the fresh run off the bike. So not the fresh run off the bike, the actual run off the bike.

You're not going to be fresh off the bike?

No. Well, that's what we want to achieve. It's feeling like fresh off the bike, which is why I keep saying that I want you to be fresh off, feeling fresh off the bike. So that's more. The goal is to try and match. So, you know, do we have to run faster in training to match what we're doing in our PBS as a fresh runner? You know, well, probably not. So that's, that's kind of where this debate's going to lead to now.

And I guess with this whole conversation, we never want to sacrifice speed for injury. What you were just saying then. So the ultimate goal is to get to the start line, especially for age groupers, because, you know, depending on what age group you're in, getting to the start line is one of the hardest parts. And we've got, you know, our oldest athlete at Trivelo, Nick always says, you know, the older I get, you know, getting to the start line becomes more of the challenge than actually racing.

Yeah, it's quite significant. And breaking down as you get older is, is, you know, one of the things you're just trying to avoid the whole time. So you've got to be real careful with, with what sessions you select. Out of the sessions that we're going to talk about right now, you've got to be really understanding how it's going to affect your, your injury prone and you know each but somebody could have calf injury or could be hamstrings, it could be back related glute, it could be Achilles, it could be foot soreness. There's so many variations in injuries that runners get that will prevent them from training full stop. So you know, it's great to be fit in the pool and fit on the bike. You know, if you haven't done any run training you're going to have an ordinary day anyway. So you know you're better off doing some conservative running training with no intensity. So you get to the start line rather than risking training so many hard sessions and breaking down and actually getting to the start line where I'm going to have a great day for two of the three legs but I'm not going to be able to run.

Yeah. And there's a lot of awareness to this because the example you gave before with an experienced runner might have a lot of build up because they run so much of potential injury, potential niggles. And maybe someone hasn't been running as long, won't have those niggles. But the other side of that is an experienced runner might be able to know how to get their body through through a big volume and their body's actually been doing it for 20 years. So it's used to a big volume. Whereas a fresh runner is not used to the volume of training required for triathlons Olympic through to Ironman. So their body will break down a lot faster if they're not careful. So that's why exactly like you're saying, the speed isn't worth the sacrifice.

So, and look, the base, exactly what you're talking about. You know, experienced runners who've been running for years have this base, we call it the bank. You know, you know you've got this bank full of 400 runs that's in your legs. And the age group triathlete could possibly only have the tiniest little bank of 30 or 40 runs in their running career. So the body, it does adapt very quickly to things. And if you haven't experienced leg pain from running then you could break down within, you know, weeks.

Yeah, yeah. So on that let's get into the best training sessions to do for running speed. And again I'll just reiterate that caveat that you've said. It's that these sessions of triathletes, cause the answer would be different for a pure runner and they're for age group of triathletes. The answer to this question would differ if we were talking about pro triathletes. It would differ if we're talking about runners trying to get quicker, but we're not. We're talking about triathletes competing in Olympic right through to Ironman. So give me the general overview before we get into the specific sessions of how to improve your running speed.

I'm a big believer in adaptation of the body. Have you heard me say that? So many weeks, you know, it doesn't matter what you're talking about. Even if you're talking about playing marbles, you know, you've got to get your thumb adapted to the action of marble. So. So we really want to get our body to be able to withstand the intensity that we're going to give it at some stage. You don't just start with intensity. You have to. In the example of building a house, you, you know, you can't put the doors and walls in without foundation. So. So it's the same with running. You actually have to do some sort of base training to get your body used to it. And I'm talking. And you know, you and I were talking about this just yesterday, coming back from injury, you know, it's okay to go for an hour run after you've had four weeks off. Clearly not. That would be. That seems ridiculous. But I've done it myself. You know, I was able to run two or three hours, no problem, and then had an injury for three or four weeks. And then first run. Yeah, I'll just do an hour. Well, the run should be 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off for five minutes, and then, you know, the next run, eight minutes of 30 seconds on, then.

The next one, depending on the severity of the injury. Yes.

And. And you just got to acknowledge that you've had a break and you have to rebuild the base again. So. So that. That base is the key to all of your training. So building that base up so that you're in. We call it the endurance run. But it's hardly an endurance run when you start off at 10 minutes. It's an endurance run compared to nothing, isn't it? It's 10 minutes more than nothing. But we generally talk about endurance. We talk about an hour to an hour and a half to two hours.

So I guess the reason we brought that up yesterday, we were chatting about it, was because you kind of said that if you were to go back and try and get through some running injuries you had, you had over the last 10 years, it really inhibited you from running again. You would be just more patient to the extreme level because you tried to come back and run 10 or 20 minutes at a time, which was still too much for what your injury was letting you do. You needed to strip right back to 30 seconds and be as patient as possible.

And just reminded me of how important the body has to have a base. And so the question is, what session should we do to run faster? You can't run faster without that base. And if you do, you're going to risk breaking down. So the endurance run is absolutely paramount to making sure that you're going to have less potential to break down. So I'm a big believer in making sure the endurance run is the key run to make you run faster, but it's also the key to everything else. So, you know, if someone said to me, what's the one session you would do to make you run faster? I'd progressively, progressively run longer to a point of where I think that's, that's enough in terms. And then I would start. So the duration, the run duration, then the consistency of that and then I would add the intensity.

That's a great first answer. So with that, once you've got your base, what are the sessions you need to be doing to get yourself faster?

Well, again, the debate about risk and reward, every time we have this question, what's the next session? Okay, what's the biggest risk? If I just started to do some 200 reps on the track and four hundreds and maybe six and 800 reps as compared to one to 2K reps, what's, what is going to give me more speed? Definitely the 200s, 400s, 800s.

And you do see running groups, triathlon groups falling for this trap and, and trying to go too quick.

And we understand why, because what people want to run faster, but it's, that's actually to the detriment because it's just a quick fix. So if you don't have that base and that endurance run and then you just go and do that, you will last probably three or four weeks before you get a niggle and then you won't be able to run at all. So the risk and reward there is, even though I do agree that you will be faster runner by doing those type of intervals, the risk is too great and we're talking about the age grouper. So I'm a big believer in the number one next best session is the threshold run above your race pace for your triathlon event. So if you're a marathon runner, the 1-2K threshold run. Of course, if you're going to run the marathon at 6 minute k pace, anything below 6 minute k pace is going to make you a faster runner in those threshold sessions. So whether you run them at 4:30 or 5 minute k pace for, for 1k reps or 2k reps, it doesn't matter, as long as you can finish 6 by 1 or 3 by 2K in that session.

So we call them threshold intervals, don't we?

Threshold intervals where you're running faster than you know, if 100% was your threshold, you're trying to run at 105%. So if, if 6 off, if 4 minutes 30 is your threshold, you need to run these under 4:30, you need to run between 4 and 4:15, something like that. So running faster than you're going to do in the race, so that is going to enable you to have overload, which is the principle behind making you to run faster, ride faster, swim faster.

And the reason that 1-2K is that sweet spot is because it's not too short to risk injury and it's not too long that it's just too grueling.

Well, you can't sustain. How long can you sustain your threshold for? Well, your threshold's normally your best effort over 40 minutes. As a runner, your threshold is your best hour. As a rider, you know, and swimmer, it's the same. It's your best effort over 1k. So if you can't run faster than your threshold for a session, that might be 50 minutes as a runner, you can't maintain that continuously, so you have to have a break so you can actually run faster after each break and you recover in the break. That's what intervals are, higher intensity recovery, so you can repeat the higher intensity. Otherwise, if we run just consistency constantly without a break, we progressively get slower from the pace we're trying to run at, so. Or ride at, or swim at. So that's the basics of interval training, which was, you know, a revelation back in the 70s, 60s to do intervals. And even I was talking to you about just in doing zone 2 endurance riding by doing, you know, an hour and a half straight, compared to doing, you know, 6 by 15 minutes with 20 seconds rest. What a difference it made to resetting the feelings of my body rather than progressively getting really uncomfortable after an hour of riding. And it is good to have little mini breaks just so that you can reset, whether it's an interval threshold session or an endurance or recovery easy, easy session. And as you know, in warmup, if you just started your event without the warmup, it takes you ages to get your body to adapt to the feel, oh, now I'm in the groove. But if you did a warm up with sort of easy running and then some high powered sprints and then rest, when you come to do your actual main set or your race, it feels so much different than it did in the first 15 minutes of the warmup. And they're the things we're trying to understand to help us pick the best sessions. And so the threshold session that is key to improving your running speed when you want to do a pb, will it improve your triathlon speed in a race? Of course it will. But remember, there is a risk every time you run faster than you're going to run in a triathlon race. There is a risk because of the other things that you're doing.

And you just have to also understand the psychological feel that you get from these interval sessions. If you're a 6 minute runner in the race, even if it's a 10k Olympic distance, if it's half ironman or ironman, if Your pace is 6km for your race and you train at 5:30, you feel really good running at 5:30. When you go back to 6, it.

Feels really comfortable, it feels really easy. And that is actually one of the real positives in doing interval training. So I'm a big believer in interval training and don't ever anybody say that I'm not. I know that it needs to be in the program, but it needs to be really looked at and each person needs to look at, am I an injury prone person? And if you've had a history of no injuries, then you can actually pick shorter intervals. If you're a person who has, you know, a real history of breaking down, you know, the interval session could almost be bypassed. Well, how are you going to run faster? So that's the next session that we would talk about.

Before we get onto that, who, who says you're not a fan of interval training?

A lot of, a lot of triathletes say we don't do any speed work. And I explained to them the reasons why. And you know, if, if the half ironman or the ironman event meant you to run faster than your best 10k, then we would do it, but it doesn't. The actual event is running the slowest. You'll run in training, in your race. So we're trying to be specific in training terms as to what the requirements are of your race as a runner and we put them into training.

I think this is the wisdom and value of experience in your coaching is that you are very Conservative and for good reason, because it is the worst thing for an athlete to call you up and say I'm injured. And also whenever you go and watch triathlon, it is, when you're watching it, it is so low intensity as a spectator. When you're in it, obviously it feels like the most intense thing in the world, but we do get caught up in wanting to go fast in training. And you would watch the pros train and they just look unbelievable and you kind of want to match that, but your race isn't anything like that and so there's no need to train at that intensity.

That's such a good point, Jordan. When you see yourself on footage, see yourself running, you just think, oh, I'm running so slow. But when you're doing that event because you've already swam potentially 2km and ridden 90km, you are at the highest pace you can maintain for the half marathon. And it's, it's intense, but it's not intense in terms of your fresh running ability, but it feels like you are just at your limit and people looking on. And if you looked at your own video, you go, why am I running so slow? Why does it look like I'm jogging? But you know, that's the nature of, of the endurance event. You know, it is a non intense run and as you said, the only people are really flying. You know, the first two or three competitors out of the 2,000 that are in the race and the rest of the people are not actually in control.

Yeah. Is it fair to say that you are constantly, you know this and you're constantly having to hold people back because you just know the disastrous outcome that could happen.

Yeah. And you know, there's nothing worse than an athlete just going, ah, I've trained for the last six months and I've got an injury three weeks out from the event. It's so disappointing conversation and it could be any one of many reasons why you get injured. But you know, we don't want it to be because you ran too fast. We want to eliminate that reason. You know, if it's another reason, we can sort it out. But it's because you ran too fast when I asked you not to do that or is because you ran on hills that were too steep and your body couldn't cope. Did you run the hills too hard when we asking you to run the hills at 5 minute, at your 5k pace, not your best 1k pace, you know, understanding what the sessions after. So, so really there's a, is a, a level that, where you know, your body and so the sessions you can do and what you can. I've got, you know, one really good triathlete who is a really good runner, but if we give him high intensity interval sessions, he will break down. So we've, we've just stopped doing them. And he does the hill repeats at controlled speed and come race day, he's still running unbelievably good times. PB times for 5K, we're talking here 5K and 10K. And the minute we start to give him intervals, he's done.

Yep. And we often use the example of one of our athletes who was training for an ultra endurance event and just did months and months and months of endurance training and not one single high intensity speed work session, intervals, anything, just all long endurance, finished their event, decided to do a 5k and 10k for fun or a half marathon as well, and smashed a PB in every single race. Yeah, it was just ran so much faster.

It was such a, an eye opener for me. I always knew that that's what's supposed to happen. But to witness it where they'd done.

Such an extreme level, extreme.

And they, to be fair, in all of their endurance training, they were doing lots and lots of elevation in their running, so lots of hills. And you know, there's a couple of things. The endurance factor and the strength work from the hills was enabling them to run 5K PBS, 10 KPBS. And I was getting them to do, you know, two, three, four hour endurance runs, you know, because they were doing 100 kilometer trail race. So, you know, they're going to be out there for 14, 15 hours. So they needed to experience, you know, at one stage they were doing building up from four to six hours in one go and then having a rest during the day and then going back out and doing another two hours. So eight hours in one day, that's extreme. But at no stage we asked them to run fast. It was just get out there and run relaxed with rhythm and they smashed their 5, 10K PBS. It was, it was a revelation.

Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of leads us into the second main session, which you've already mentioned the benefit of the word so many times. Hills.

Yeah. And you know, if I just use my own example, when I was, you know, competing as a professional, I moved the Dandenong Rangers to be next to Sherbrooke Forest. So let's get that right. I moved house so that I could train as close as possible to the venue as a professional triathlete. That was part of my preparation was where's the best place to train? I was living in the suburbs and I had some good little parks here and there around the Box Hill area, but they weren't long enough. There was too much concrete, too much traffic. And if I really wanted to get the best sessions, I would have to drive a lot to the Dandenong Ranges where Sherbrooke Forest is and some of the unbelievably, you know, iconic trails to run on. So. So that strength training enabled me to have so much ability to hold my pace in the back half of the marathon in the Ironman. So without that strength training, I could run the first half of the marathon in the Ironman at the pace I wanted to and fade basically. And I was able to hold the same pace all the way and in fact, negative split the end of the, of the marathon because of my preparedness to do so much strength work. And, you know, moving house is, is really the ultimate. I'm not asking our age group is to do that. It's just an example of, you know, but you should think about getting in your car rather than running from home where it's very convenient. But you might live on a flat road that's got no undulations. So where are you going to get your strength from? Yeah, sure, you can find some stairs and stuff to do, but. But you really need to get not only the downhill and the uphill, but you need to get flat, downhill and uphill. We need all three. The eccentric contraction, the concentric contraction of your legs is just as good up and downhill. It's just as valuable as, you know, running downhill is hard. If you're running downhill for 15 minutes, it takes a toll on your legs. So the benefits of strength training as compared to interval training are almost equal in my opinion. And we've got lots of examples to prove that theory. And the risk of breaking down. You don't have to run hard in the hills. The hills create the intensity. So, you know, for example, if I got you to run on the flat, you would have to run it. Say your, say Your threshold is 4 minute k pace, or let's just use 6 minute k pace on the flat. Your threshold is 6 minute k pace. If I put you on a hill and you ran 8 minute K pace on that hill because the hill's so steep, your, your cardiac output would be unable to talk. You know, probably more intense than the flat. 6 minute K pace.

Depending on the hill.

Yeah, depending on the hill. And so what do you think the intensity is? Like, well, the intensity of the hill is, is just as good as you trying to run as fast as you can. So you're really getting the overload that you're requiring from the cardiovascular system plus the strength in your legs. So you're getting both. Whereas running fast on the, on the flat, you're actually going to get sore legs from running fast rather than stronger legs. That sounds a little bit of a contradiction, but you're not, you're not getting that variation of the concentric eccentric up and down. So the hill, the hill sessions are just so important. And you know yourself how strong you feel when you, like you were talking about before when you, when you run interval training at 5:30 pace, when you're a 6 minute K pace runner and you go to run the race at 6 minute K pace, it feels easy. When you run all, all the hills and you go back onto the flat, it has the same effect. You feel like, well, where's the hill? You know, I don't have any resistance here. It feels like I'm running with really good flow and relaxed, you know, technical running structure almost. It just feels so easy.

Yeah. And that's why for speed we do hill repeats.

That's exactly right. And you know, we do have threshold intervals in our program. We do have monofartlek in our program. You know, don't, don't shy away from that. We do have that but we have it when we're, when we're trying to peek into form. So that's where it's important to understand where the best bang for your buck is, is in the endurance run the hills and then the threshold and then you can, you know, spend a small amount of time running fast.

And that's why we value the hill repeats as a speed session. To help you run faster is because it's, the brilliance of it is that it allows you to like you say, push the intensity without actually having to sprint. If you're getting that, like you said before, that trying to get that same intensity on the flat as you do in a hill, you have to run faster. That increases the risk of injury. And another caveat to that is that some people biomechanically actually run worse on hills and their form goes away and it leads to injury. And so when that does happen then you have to stay away from the hills unfortunately. But for a lot of athletes it's a really, it's a safer alternative because you can get the intensity and the speed that you want. When you go, going to go back to racing on the Flat without the speed required to actually run in training.

Yeah, but look, the example on a bike is really easy. With the power meter you can see, you know, when you're riding on the flat, to ride at 300 watts it takes some, some effort because you're creating the power. There's very little resistance except for wind if you're on the flat. So you're having to generate that yourself. If you go to a hill, it feels in the first two or three minutes that that easy to get to 300 watts because the hill is creating a resistance. It's hard to hold that for a lot longer. But instantly the hill does it for you. And that's the same in running, but you can't measure it. That's what I'm trying to say on a bike you can see it clearly. Geez, I'm riding at 300 watts without me doing anything because I'm just trying to keep up with the hill.

And again, anecdotally there is so much to say about that strength. You actually asked me when talking about hills, what do I find harder? You know, doing the two minute hill repeats that give you that more strength and a bit lower intensity or the shorter 30 second or one minute hill repeats where you. I'm kind of sprinting up the hill and I said that obviously when I. It depends how hard you do the session. When I'm going at my max, it's just no matter what it is, it's one of the worst sessions to do. He's so stuffed. But often you ask me to do two minute hill repeats, but not at, not at sprinting intensity. You know, it's at your 5k, see your 5k, your pace, you know, obviously you're not going to run your 5k pace up the hill because you're going slower. Yes. You know, so if someone's 5k pace is 5 minutes, they're actually not going to do that uphill. They're going to run 6, 30 or 7. But it's your perceived 5 kilometer pace with you're supposed to be able to hold it, you know. And so when I do that session, I'm not as exhausted as a sprinting session on the track or something. But I feel when I go run on the track or when I run, I go run on the flat. I feel so strong when I'm doing these sessions for four, six, eight weeks. And that's been proven so many times in my own program. When I do a block of two blocks of hill repeats like that, I'll go run a PB for 5K. Because it's just. The translation is so brilliant.

Yep. So you know the topic about how to. What sessions are going to make you run faster. Look, we've got two types of hill sessions already, you know, so there's the perceived 5K and there's the running as hard as you can on the hill.

Yeah.

And they're both going to give you benefits that are equal to doing short, fast interval sessions without the risk.

Yeah. To finish off the point you made before about, you know, at what point do you stop trying to get faster and stop trying to run 5 or 10K PBS and, and just work on closing the gap between what you're running fresh and what you're running in a race off the bike. And that's a really, really key point because you can try and get your 10k fresh time down by a minute, two minutes, three minutes continuously, try and get PBS. But there's no use doing that if every time you go to the race and run off the bike, you're five minutes off your fresh pb.

Yeah. And the gap keeps widening. So I'm a believer of. Right. 50 minutes is my 10K. We're just picking that for an example. 5 minute K pace. What can I do off the bike in a race? My best is 55. Okay. My goal in training is to make sure that I can try and get as close to running, you know, 5 minute K pace in the intervals. Because I know come race day I'm a five what, whatever it is. 5:30 5:30. So. So already you've got a different goal. Rather than running 4:30 pace, it's okay to be consistently running 5 minute K pace. And you will in a race because your body's actually used to that speed. That's your goal, that's your pb. So you will actually start to run closer to that, to that 5 minute K pace than had you risked running 4 30s and getting exhausted and break down. So, you know, that's a. If people can understand that concept.

Yeah. And it's really important to understand that's a concept because that's a really generic example. If you're looking at a specific athlete, you would know exactly what pace they're supposed to be running. Their interval that we don't just guess and say. Or run approximately five minutes.

Yes.

You know, we are, we do specifically say to them. But yeah, the concept is there.

Yeah. And so what, you know, I think that's more important to answer the question of what the podcast is about, you know, what sessions should we be doing in order for us to run faster? That's, that's what we're trying to find out here. So in a triathlon you need to do the pace that you want to do in the race, which is as close to your PB fresh pace. And we've said this quite a few times, so you will be an unbelievably top end age grouper if you can run within 30 seconds of your fresh 10kpb. Yeah, so, so you know, you need to train at your fresh 10kpb a lot in those interval type sessions because we know that it could be 5 or 4 or 3 minutes difference between your off the bike 10k time as compared to your fresh. So, you know, there's periods where we, we try to get guys to run way slower than that just as recovery runs to practice running off the bike and then we have specific sessions where we are really trying to improve their run off the bike time.

It comes back to the answer that we've just said feels like a thousand times in the podcast is that you got to practice running off the bike.

Yeah. Yep. And if you're not doing any of that, you're going to get such a shock and you, you'll never be able to get close to your PB because you're treating it like running is a, in a triathlon is a fresh run. And running in a triathlon, no matter how I don't care which way you try and look at it, you have to have had a swim and a bike ride before it. So you need to, you run off the bike time is your time, not how good a runner I am as a fresh runner.

If you're a runner, then it would be. But you're a traffic.

Absolutely. And people wouldn't care what your time is off the bike if you're a runner. But you know, the important thing is, yeah, I can run a 36 minute 10k fresh and my PB off the bike is 46. Well, that's, that's your time.

Yeah.

In a, in a triathlon. What sort of a runner are you? I'm a 46 minute 10k runner. That's disappointing statement to make, isn't it? When you know that it's completely miles away from what you're capable of.

And I know that you have been shocked and surprised at looking at some pro triathletes programs where they are so obsessed with, yeah, improving their, improving their running speed, not running off the bike. You know, they're obsessed with getting their 10k time down to match some elite runners out there. But they're not runners, they're triathletes. And you're just saying to them, shaking your head, going, what's the purpose? You know, you're not performing well in races because you're not practicing running off the bike enough. And from the age group I write to the pro triathlete, the principle's the same.

Yep. And a lot of them are doing their session that really counts, that they think is going to improve them. They're doing it fresh, they're not doing it off the bike. And, you know, you need to have some sessions running off the bike in your program where you're running easy, harder, and very hard. So, you know, that might not be all in the one week. That might be over a block. But unless you've got that in your program and a lot of the pro triathletes programs, I see, there is none of that. It's all about running as fast as they can fresh. And they are very good runners, but they're not very good runners in a triathlon. So which would you rather be? Your sport is triathlon.

Yeah.

You're not doing any 10k runs to. To. To. To. To write home about. You're actually trying to improve yourself as a triathlete.

Yeah. And like we said before, they are very good runners in the triathlon still, but their gap is too big between where they are freshened and that.

It could be a game changer. But it's. It's hard to convince them of that.

Yeah. And you have tried. So. I mean, I love that we can finish this podcast off by coming full circle to what we always do. And. And it's. We. We started with, you know, how to improve your running speed. And it comes back to. Well, there's a lot of different things that you're not thinking about, and improving your running speed isn't necessarily the number one goal. It is. It is, but it comes back to improving your running speed of what you can do off the bike.

Yep. Yep. So the topic definitely is what we're trying to achieve, how do I get faster? But the caveat is off the bike. And. And if you don't put that sentence in together, you're looking at the wrong thing.

Yep. Perfect. That's a good way to finish. That was a very packed topic. Like we said at the start, it was going to be a complex discussion because there is a lot of factors to think about, and we all want to get faster, but we have to think about it in the right context, especially as a triathlete. So finish off there. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next time. It.