The Training Program That Won Her Olympic Gold! With Grace Brown

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. After coming fourth at the Tokyo Olympics time trial in 2021, just seven seconds off the podium, second at the World champs last year, the time trial by six seconds of first place. And coming into this year, Grace Brown's number goal for the year in her final year as a professional cyclist was to win gold at the Paris Olympics. A big amount of pressure to put on yourself when it all has to come together on one day out of four years. She's four time Australian national time trial champion and lucky for her, I wouldn't say lucky. After you listen to this episode, when you find out the level of detail and preparation she has gone into in terms of her training, race planning and execution. It did all come together on race day and she smashed the field and won the olympic gold by 90 seconds. A really incredible effort and to cap off a really, really impressive career which has included, As I said, four Australian National Time Trial Champion Championships, multiple top 10 stages, Classics results in the Spring Classic series, a win in Liege Baston Liege this year after coming second two years in a row, 2023 Tour Down under champion and a very, very strong and talented Australian cyclist, today we really dive deep with Grace Brown about how to time trial better. What, what do you do in training? What kind of efforts do you do? And you'll see the level of preparation and detail she goes into about the training and the specificity of training and how she did everything in terms of the time trial training around the specifics of the Paris race course to give her the best chance of winning. It was an awesome interview and dad, we just really, we're really excited for this one because we really wanted to dive into the details of time trial preparation. It's something that we love, it's something we speak about a lot and she was able to give some really, really good insights about how to get the most out of yourself on a time trial bike.

Yeah, wasn't it really, it's always great to have the best time trialer on a podcast like this where we can really dig into the insights of what allowed her to be so successful in that event. And she's the best time trial in the world at the Olympics and that only comes around every four years and you know, you need to be doing a hell of a Lot of things. Well, to get that and to win by so far was exceptional. To win by over 90 seconds. And when we see the men's race, I think it was 10 seconds between first and second or eight seconds and then, you know, less than 20 seconds between the first, second and third place getters. For Grace to be so dominant in her event was incredible. And, you know, she'd been knocking on the door. She got fourth at Tokyo and she got second at the world titles. And here she is coming out and she got everything right on the day. And look, the conditions were really average and she rode the conditions better than anybody else. And that's part of time trialing, is being really competent at cornering and riding in the wet and knowing your numbers and riding to power and executing all the things we talk about on our podcast. She epitomized in her preparation to get the eventual outcome, which is to be the Olympic champion. And it's a great story and not just about the Olympic champion gold medal winning day, but a lot of her other insights about being in a team and being part of the female peloton and being Tour de France rider and Giro rider and welter writer and the classic spring classics winner. She's done a lot of things and she can look back on her career with fond memories of being, you know, a really talented athlete who really achieved her potential and reached goals that she always dreamed about. And I think this is a great story.

Yeah, we can't wait for you to hear this. You know, it's. You get the chance to hear the best time trial in the world go through their preparation, their training sessions, what equipment they use, the course recon, the mindset, absolutely everything. The aerodynamic gains, her top tips for time trialing, it's all in this episode. So we're, we can't wait for you to hear it. Here is the interview with Grace Brown. And let's go. So, Grace, welcome to the podcast. What an incredible last month. You've had a really good ending to your 2024 season and your final year. How are you feeling now that the dust is settling after the Olympic gold medal and that insane Tour de France that just happened?

Yeah, I don't know, it still hasn't really hit home. Like, I keep waiting to have this, you know, feeling like I've changed as a person because of it. But yeah, it turns out I'm still the same person. Just a little bit more hype and yeah, a new accolade to my name. But yeah, I, I guess it will never, really never really sink in. Maybe when I'm an old woman or something, it'll. It'll seem like, yeah, something a bit more special. But for now, I'm the same.

Congratulations on behalf of every Australian who's listening to this podcast and everybody who's been following your journey. And we want to dive into that a little bit. But, yeah, it's a pretty special thing. You'll always be known as an Olympian, and now you'll be known as an Olympic gold medalist. And you were an Olympian before, but is there much difference in your mind between actually winning the gold medal as compared to just being selected for your country?

Oh, yeah, definitely, I think, yeah, It's. It's sort of like at each milestone that you achieve, you go after the, you know, the next goal to top it. And originally, just being on the Olympic team felt like such an achievement for me back in Tokyo. Like, that was really exciting, just being able to say that I was an Olympian. And then, yeah, as Paris came around, I, you know, it felt inevitable that I should go. And then it became more a matter of, well, you know, I'm going to target the big result. I'm going to go after a gold medal. And I think it, yeah, you know, you see how Australia treats gold medalists and really, you know, gets around that idea, and that gives you a bit of an understanding of what it means versus just being an Olympian. So it feels big. Yeah.

You raised a really interesting point to start with about the fact that it's, um. It takes a while to sink in and it hasn't fully sunk in yet. And we talk about this concept all the time on the podcast about making sure that you do enjoy the training and enjoy, as cliched it is the journey up to that point. And you can't just put everything onto the result. But you're in a different position because we, we're talking to age groupers about that, whereas you're literally going for the epitome, which is the gold medal at the Olympics. So how are you finding that now when you look back? I mean, yeah, you've got. You've got to enjoy the training yourself, but you are putting the pressure on yourself for that top spot.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's something I've reflected on since winning the gold, is that, yeah, I really enjoyed having that goal, even though at some, at points it was scary, you know, and I'd think about the race in the future and have, like, this real full body, sort of nervous feeling about it. And then, yeah, once I'd Spent so much time focusing on the process of getting there, the process of the race, not trying to have, you know, too much expectation of the result. And then, yeah, once I'd achieved my.

Goal.

You know, it almost felt like I'd lost something because, you know, what do you go after then when you've already achieved the top thing that you possibly could. So, yeah, it's really interesting sort of phenomenon.

I guess it would be overwhelming if you didn't process it like you just explained. And it's great for the age grouper to hear that because if you just thought about the race and the pressure of that event and you would have a hard time getting up each day because there's just so much expectation on you from yourself. And as you've just experienced, you know, the whole of Australia loves to get around, get around our Olympians and you can, you know, you have to be very thick skinned not to feel that pressure from the weight of the nation. You know, I always recall Cathy Freeman, how she just must have been so focused on just performing in that 400 meters. And you must have had the same positive outlook about not worrying about the event. But just what can I do in the event? And, and that's kind of what we push as help to our age group, is not to worry about the end result. What, what's going to get you that end result? Is that how you thought about the whole training process and the events leading up to it and on the day and the days before, how did you, how did your mindset cope with that incredible pressure that must have been there?

Yeah, definitely. That's, that's an approach that I, like, consciously took. Was that, okay, I'm, I'm not going to think about so much. Yeah. What the result will be when I cross the line, how that's going to feel like. Yeah, all of that expectation, I'm going to focus on, you know, well, in the training before, in the preparation, everything that I need to do to be at my best on the day and then when I come to the race, it's all about how can I get the very best effort out of myself in the moment. I know that it's going to hurt, it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'm just focused on, on that effort and, and doing my best rather than, yeah, I don't know, the external validation of what my best is.

Yeah, look, I really want to dive into, into the time trialing aspect and everything about the race. But before we get into that and the training and the actual day Itself. I just want to go back a bit earlier to the start of the 2024 season. And in January, you won your fourth national time trial title in a row. Just showing your domination of the time trial event, getting stronger and stronger. And obviously, that was your big goal leading into this year was Paris. But then after you self admitted probably a relatively disappointing classic season all the way up until Liege, Bastogne. Liege, where you won as the first Australian female to win a classic. Just absolutely incredible race. For those who don't know the history, you had come second two years in a row in that race. You've had plenty of top 10 finishes in the classics. That race itself, I mean, we reposted some footage back when it happened, because you were in the break, and then the break kind of got a little bit bigger, and you almost crashed with 7k to go. And then you got back onto the group with 5k to go, a real time trial effort yourself to get there and then win the sprint. Talk us through the emotions of that race and how incredible that was.

Yeah, it was like, it's still a really, I don't know, special memory, even. Like, it's different to the Olympics in a way, because, yeah, I'd had a spring that had been difficult. I'd, you know, just been. Been struggling getting my race together and performing at the level that I wanted to. And then, yeah, just in the week leading up, like, the Ardennes week, I raced. I raced Amstel Gold, and I started feeling like, you know, a bit more like my. Myself at my top. And then I raced Flesh Ballone, and it was like this next step. I was really in the race. I was. I was, yeah, enjoying the, you know, what I could do and the. The feeling of racing. And then the day before Liege, like, I just had this sense that, like, you know, I could go out the next day and race for the win. Um, and I told my team, and they, like, changed the. The race plan a bit so that, you know, I could get my opportunity.

Wow.

And then, you know, it was just like, I had this. I had this focus, like, okay, I'm gonna get in this break. It usually goes in a similar spot in Liege because there's just this really hard section that if you ride the front for, like, 20 kilometers, then you'll just end up in the break because it splits. So, yeah, I just went after it, and I was there and in this great group, and, yeah, and then just felt strong. I had some doubts, like, there was at least shabby in the group, and she Was climbing really well and I, you know, I was a bit worried that she'd drop me on one of the steep climbs towards the end, but, you know, she attacked and she just couldn't get away. I just followed. So. Yeah, and then the, the front, you know, the, the favorites, the, the top climbers joined us after the very last climb.

Roche.

And then I was like, okay, I know that I can out sprint this group, so I just need to get to the finish line with them. And we're sweet. So, yeah, it was such, such a cool race and to, yeah, to come over the line first and just feel like the enormity of winning such a, like, significant race and the history also for Australian women. Yeah, it was really cool and exciting.

That's a great story. And especially when you have to go out on a limb and tell your team you need the support today. That's a hard one to do, isn't it? You want to do that, but at the same time you don't want to put yourself out there so much. So if it backfires, you. Yeah, they might not trust me. The fact that, that you are.

Yeah, next time you say cockney.

But the fact that you actually pulled it off and you put yourself out there, that must be even more satisfying. And for, for your team. I remember watching the footage afterwards, it was so exciting for your team that, you know, your plan actually came together. You did, you did, you did everything right. And, and the sharing of, you know, we know cycling is an individual sport, but it is, it is an individual sport, plus it's a team sport. And, and what was that like in the team to have that classic win? Because that, you don't win many, you know, teams don't win a lot of classics, so it's, it's a real privilege to win a classic. How was that feeling with the team?

Yeah, it was, it was really awesome. And just, yeah, even, even though it was a race where I was alone for a lot of it, like I was in the breakaway for most of the race, I hardly saw my teammate, but when I crossed the line, I felt like they'd all been there on the journey with me. And also just. It's not, it's the teamwork isn't just what happens in the race, it's also what happens off the bike and the support and belief from everyone in my team that, you know, and the trust when I say I believe that I can do this, even though, like, I've not had the best, you know, racing coming up to this point. And yeah, so when I said it, they said they thought, all right, Grace is saying that she's good. We believe her. And, yeah, so it felt like, you know, I. I couldn't have done it without the belief of all those people around me. And then, yeah, to share, you know, to have people so genuinely happy and excited for me when I won was really special.

Can you give us a bit more insight into how that conversation actually goes? Because that is incredible backing. When you go to the team and the director and say, I want to go for it tomorrow, how do you approach that conversation? What's their response? And then what did they actually change based on that?

Yeah, so the team had sent out, like, we. We get given a few days before the race plan that, you know, they're looking at doing and different roles of the riders. And my role was initially quite a, like, supporting role. Like, I. I was to cover attacks and then position one of my teammates to be, yeah, in good position for Laradoot, which is where the race usually, you know, hits off. And, yeah, I saw this plan, and my heart sank because I was like, okay, I'm just. And they're helping. Like, it's not. I don't really have an opportunity to. To race myself. And I love Liege. Like, I really, you know, feel a connection with Liege, so I always want to be in the race. But, yeah, I saw that. And then I. Well, I first spoke with my coach and said, you know, this is how I'm feeling. You know, what do you think? Like, do you think I can talk to the sports director? Like, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, he had a conversation behind the scenes. And then we had an. I had a meeting with the sports director, and, yeah, they. They basically changed it so that, yeah, I could. I could be. I could put myself in the position to, you know, go in the early break to be there to win, or if, you know, if that wasn't the way the race played out, then I, Like, I was always given a bit of a wild card to do what I needed to do if I felt that it could work. So, yeah, that's sort of how it happened.

That's awesome. It's so good to hear. And coming into the sprint, new Aderma goes early. Longo Borghini goes with her. And then a gap opened up. I can't remember who the EF rider was that kind of left the gap, and you had to come round her and really bridge a big gap to come across. And you. You backed your sprinting ability, but was there a point there where, you know, the rider in front of you has dropped the wheel and you're going, this is too far. Were you confident? You know, 50 meters to go. It still didn't look like you were going to come over the top of Longo Bilghini. What was, what was going through your head in that whole last, last sprint?

Yeah, I was, I didn't want to like burn, burn my matches too early to close the gap. And so yeah, it was Kim Kadzell, the New Zealand writer on af. She was, I was on her wheel and she was like putting in an effort to like close it. Not very fast, but I felt like it was coming closer. So I just, you know, sat in patiently trusting that I would, she would bring me within reach to launch my sprint. And then yeah, I saw Elise Longo Borghini just starting her sprint. So I thought, okay, well it's now or never, I have to go. Um, and yeah, thankfully it was like close enough that, you know, I could get a bit of a run and still use the slipstream a little bit to gain speed. But yeah, it was a bit, it was definitely like more of a risky sprint. But in the moment I felt so patient. Like I didn't doubt that I was, you know, doing the right thing or not. Like it's, I felt like, okay, I've got this under control despite the gap.

That's a great summary especially you've probably known better as a time trialist and not a sprinter and for you to back yourself like that in a sprint, in a big one day classic, you've got a real good versatility to your riding career and that's really a standout. Do you think your running days before you became a rider have helped you, helped you with that, that sort of engine that you've got and you've got that sprint as well?

I definitely think the engine, yeah, is helped from my running days. I'm not sure about the sprint, to be honest. Yeah, I mean I'm like, I'm an, I'm an okay sprinter. I know that like in the lie age scenario the girls that were there in the final were all climbers. So to be better sprinters than them is like not super hard. But yeah, in a bunch sprint I don't go so well. But yeah, like I think, I don't, I don't know where the, the sprinter ability comes from. Yeah, this just one of those random things that I seem to be able to do.

Do you practice it in training? Do you, do you guys do sprint work? Do you, do you know, 10 second sprints, kind of really short work in training ever.

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, like quite a bit. But yeah, sometimes I'll just do an endurance ride with. Yeah, maybe six. But my, my coach likes to do seven second sprints because it's sort of enough just to train the explosive. Yeah, sort of explosive power, but not like fatigue you with sprinting. So, yeah, I, I do that quite a bit, but, yeah, probably quite different to what a pure sprinter would do in their training.

Yeah, yeah. Dave McKenzie made a comment after that win saying that even if you win gold at Paris, he will rate this win as higher. And then you've gone on to win gold. So knowing that comment back then and now, you've actually won gold. I think he was just trying to make the point of, of how big classics are in cycling and he really is just a traditional cyclist. But how do you feel about those comments now, having won both?

Yeah, Yeah, I, I do feel like the gold medal is bigger, especially from an Australian standpoint. But. Yeah, but like, because the Olympics just like surpasses, you know, it's bigger than a single sport. But yeah, like, Liege is definitely, you know, it's up there and it's a completely different emotion. Sorry, there's a tractor going by. It's a completely different emotion because it, you know, in a road race, it's, it's really exciting and a bit surprising and yeah, it's really in the moment. Whereas winning the time trial is very like contemplated effort and you have an idea of what you can do and it's really controlled.

So, yeah, let's dive into the time trial. Let's dive into the Paris Olympics and that gold medal. And yeah, we were. When you just think about it and you think about the enormity of the Olympics, it's once every four years. And like you said, the road race, road races and cycling races can throw all sorts of surprises. So you could have really good legs, but the luck not go your way on the day. Whereas the time trial is your performance, your execution, all coming down to you. And for this specific race, it's once every four years. And so that is a lot of pressure to get it all right, to get the gold medal. So we want to take a step back in this and talk about your preparation and what does your training program look like? We really want to dive into kind of the months leading up to it, because this year you did all three Grand Tours, did the Volta earlier in the year, then the Giro. So how are you preparing for all this? Road cycling. But knowing that your a goal is the time trial at the Olympics, where are you fitting your time trial training in?

Yeah, so I guess despite the amount of, you know, road racing that I was doing, I spent a lot of my training on the time trial bike. And yeah, I think I'm trying to think, on average, I would do.

What percentage. What percentage of time would you be on? It'd be 50, 50, or would it be.

No, not, not 50, 50, but I would do like at least three sessions on the time trial bike a week, I would say. But yeah, I mean, a lot of my volume is still on the road bike, so I wouldn't. My coach doesn't tend to set me time trial sessions longer than two and a half hours. And some days I would do split. So I'd do like my quality work on the time trial bike and then I'd come home and I'd swap bikes and go out on the road bike just for endurance. But yeah, I think with the time trial it's not so much about. Yeah. Doing volume on time trial, but. But that when you're on the bike, it's really quality work.

So what kind of sessions are you doing? So if you've got three per week, what are they? Are they VO2 sessions or threshold sessions? What's the actual sets?

Yeah, usually like. Yeah, well, maybe one day I'll just. Just ride my time trial bike without any intervals. And then the other days would be more. Yeah, I do a lot of threshold work, but quite often I'd go a bit above threshold, so it might be sort of under overs or like I do 30 seconds closer to VO2 and then back down to threshold. So it's always like up, down, up, down, but the threshold part is longer and. Or. Yeah, maybe like progressive efforts where building for Paris was like, flat. So, you know, the. You'd think that it's quite a steady state, but also the corners they had to factor in. You're doing a little acceleration out of every single corner. So I do longer efforts at threshold and every minute I'd do an acceleration. Yeah, just, just stuff like that to sort of replicate the course that I'm training for.

And so can we get one more level of specificity? If you're willing to. So let's say you're doing 30 seconds of VO2 and then threshold effort, or the same thing, threshold, and then one minute kind of accelerating. What is your threshold kind of wattage? And so. And then how long are those efforts? Are they. Are they six minutes or eight minutes. And then what wattage are you kind of pushing up to? Like how much higher are you going to hit VO2?

Yeah, so my threshold is around 300 watts and then the, my time trial sessions would always add up to around like 40 minutes at threshold. So because we were expecting the race to be around 40 minutes, it's amazing. But it would always be broken up either into like 4 by 10 minute efforts or yeah, maybe sometimes three 15 minute efforts or two 20 minute efforts. And yeah, quite often like the, the power within the efforts would be a bit higher, a bit lower, but then it would always average out around the 300 watts or maybe like 310 watt average. Yeah, my coach really wanted me to get used to riding that, you know, more around 3:10, 3:15. Because quite often, yeah, you know, with the corners and stuff, if, if you're just targeting 300 watts, then it will average out at lower. So yeah, I did a lot of work actually over threshold.

Was there any opportunities that you could ride for that 40 minutes without, without a rest period, like a straight time trial practice? Did you try to do any of that simulation for doing the full 40 minutes at a time trial pace on your own or was there any events you could go to? How, how did your last sort of six or eight weeks look? Did you have a go at doing something like that or was it, was it all intervals?

Uh, yeah, no, it wasn't. I didn't actually do a full like race simulation. Um, it's quite hard to find. I don't know if you've experienced in Europe to, to find somewhere that you can do 40 minutes uninterrupted. Um, but yeah, I would do sessions that had like very small recovery between each interval. So then it, you know, it's close enough to simulating that full race scenario. Um, but yeah, otherwise, I mean maybe I, I could have done something on the indoor trainer, but I don't really. Yeah, I don't feel like it's the same sort of effort on the indoor trainer compared to on the road. So yeah, this, it works for me, not doing a full simulation, but some people would probably like to do something a bit closer.

It's incredible level of specificity and yeah, you can see why you're so prepared for the effort of the race. But the next level of kind of specificity for the course is actually the course recon, but it's really impossible to do for the Paris course. So did you get a chance to recon it in the days leading up? Was the course closed at all or did you just have to ride around, you know, kind of assuming cause you couldn't get access to the entire course recon as specifically as those corners were?

Yeah, I did a few months before come to Paris and ride the course. We went really early in the morning, but you know, it still wasn't. Yeah, it didn't give us too much insight because you still, even though there was not that much traffic at 6am, there was still the lights that I had to stop for. You didn't know how like the road was going to be buried, so you didn't know what line you could take in the corners and you know, all that sort of detail. But then a few days before the event, they closed the circuit for a couple of hours. So we were able to go on the course and practice. Yeah, it was more about practicing where on the road I wanted to ride, how I was going to take the corners, what to beat. I could take the corners. Yeah, all those sorts of details. Rather than going out like three days before the race. I couldn't do a simulation effort, really. It's not part of the taper, but yeah.

And, and with, with that taper and then making sure that somehow you, you get to feel the best you possibly can on the day that it counts the most. How difficult is that been for you in the past? Or if you, if you've done well? Because being a four time national time trial champion, you, you're probably pretty good at knowing how to get yourself up on the day that it counts. Did you think you did it clearly when you won the race? You've done a really good job of that. But were you happy with your taper and how your feelings were around coming up to the day?

I was actually a little bit worried because as you mentioned earlier, I raced the Giro before and usually in the past I've done these, yeah, you know, week long tours and you know, come off feeling really good after a few days rest. But I think because the Giro was super hot, it really took a lot out of me and I felt, I felt a lot of like fatigue and sort of muscle tiredness afterwards. And it didn't really go away before the Olympics. So I was doing, I was doing my training and I was like, my power was good and everything was good, but I never felt good in the week before the Olympics. So yeah, I was a little bit sort of concerned that yeah, maybe I'd overdone it and I wasn't fresh enough. But yeah, in the end, like, yeah, my coach just kept reminding me okay. Just, you know, it doesn't mean that you can't do it just because you're not feeling your best. And yeah, in the end, I just had to trust the process because we couldn't go back in time anyway. So, yeah, I just need. It was fine in the end.

Yeah.

Sometimes you don't feel like.

Feel good on the day when you look back at your data and your analysis of your performance. Obviously, being the best rider on the day, you must have done a lot of things. Well, the day was really bad weather and a hell of a lot of male and female riders fell over. And you managed to get around that course looking like it was dry. It was impressive. I was awake at 2am watching the event and it was just a matter of, can you stay upright on your bike and you've got this. And were you conscious of knowing that other people had fallen? There's a lot of questions here. Did you ride the power that you wanted to? Did you have to really slow down a lot more than you would have normally had because you knew other people were falling? Did you know all that information before you started? Because you were second last right at the start? And I'm sure someone must have been telling you there's people falling over all the time. How was your thought process on the start line there? What were you thinking?

Yeah, I actually was. I didn't know too much about what was happening in the race. I think, yeah, we, like, I was warming up in a tented area and I didn't have like a TV or anything. There weren't, you know, lots of people from other nations around me. So I was in a bit of a bubble with the Australian team and whether they were following what was happening in the race or not, I don't know. But if. If they knew, they chose not to tell me, which was good. The only thing I saw was when I went. I was. I went to the start and they had a screen up and I saw a Polish rider getting back on her bike on the screen and I thought, it looks like she's crashed. But it didn't occur to me that, okay, she's crashed, that everyone's crashing. So I wasn't really worried about that. And then in the race. Oh, yeah, I obviously knew that because it was wet, I had to take the corners slower than I practiced during the week. So I'd like revised a little bit the speed that I was going to take. And there were some corners I had planned to take in the aero bars that I said, okay, I'm Just coming up, I'm not going to take those risks. And then there was one roundabout I came to, which is actually the roundabout that Luke Clapp crashed on and a few other, a few other riders when I watched back and there were lots of fans just like going, slow down, slow down. Like, and, and yeah, I was like, okay, something obviously happened on, on this roundabout and so I took that extra, extra slowly. But yeah, otherwise I didn't, I wasn't aware of the crashes, which was good because I think if you know that it's really slippery, then you tense up and, and you take the corners worse than you otherwise would. And yeah, when you're tense and, and you, yeah, you, you're more likely to, yeah, react badly to your bike underneath you. So I was glad that I didn't really know that. But in the last 10Ks of the race, so I had radio communication and basically my coach, Dean Bates behind me was saying, grace. Okay, sit up, prepare for the corner. Slow down, wash off the speed. Wash off the speed. It's like, why, like, why are you telling me to slow down? I'm trying to win a race. Yeah, so, yeah, it was, yeah, I didn't really understand the extent of it until I'd finished the race on. But yeah, your other question about power. Oh, do you, sorry, I can answer the question about pacing and power if you want. Yeah. So for the power, we looked back at, you know, my previous, all, all my previous time trial race data and my coach made a graph. Okay, these are your best performances and if you, if you do, you know, power in line with your best performances, this is sort of the time that you'll get and if you can do 5 watts higher than that target power, I think we've got the gold medal like in the bag. So that's what I was aiming for. And then actually it was the first time ever that I've put on my computer average power for the time trial. I usually just have the 3 second power, so I know what I'm doing in the moment. But not overall, but yeah, because of, because it was such a flat time trial, I thought, okay, I'll put average power on my head unit and, and see if that can help me like keep pushing to, you know, keep the power up. And yeah, in the end I, I ended up doing 3, 3 watts over what my target was. So, yeah, it was quite, um, quite a bit better despite the fact that I had to stop pedaling earlier for the corners and, yeah, washing off a lot more speed there. So I don't know if it would have been. Yeah, even better if it was on a dry course. But yeah, it worked out quite well.

Were you consciously in the straight sections then knowing that you were going slower to keep that average power number that you had in your head, Were you consciously going harder in the straight safe sections to get the power back up? Was that something you were consciously doing or was that not even a factor in your thought process?

Yeah, I was like anytime that I was on a straight section, well, the course, even though it was flat, there were sort of either slightly false flat downhill or false flat uphill. So anytime it was a false flat uphill, I was really doing like 30 watts over the average power. And then on the slight downhills, I was just focusing on being as aerodynamic as possible, you know, doing a little bit under my average and try, you know, using those moments to recover a little bit. Um, so it was more of an on off effort, like a under over sort of effort than you would think for a flat course.

Yeah, that's super interesting. We're always really curious when it comes to different courses about how much over and under you go and, and coming out of the corners, what was your race plan and what did you actually execute with in terms of getting the bike back up to speed? How much time do you spend really going over and how far over do you go to get the bike back up to speed, to get back to your kind of race plan wattage?

Yeah, so out of every corner I'd always, yeah, do like a big effort, maybe 10, 15 seconds and then, yeah, sort of watch the speed. So I had, I'd always try and push the speed back up to around 50k an hour before I settled into more controlled pace. There's one thing that I've learned a lot over the years is about the importance of getting back up to the high speed as soon as possible. So like, if you go over the crest of a little hill, you don't stop, you don't see, stop pushing at the crest. You keep pushing over the crest until you've picked up the speed and then you can recover or like settle back into an easier pace. But yeah, it's also true for coming out of corners.

So how, how high are you pushing in that 10 to 15 seconds to get it back up to 50Ks an hour. Is that like 400 watts or is it 350? Or is it 450? Like how, how much are you really going over?

Yeah, no, like it's not that controlled, but it would definitely be over 400 watts, I think.

Yeah, I think that's great. I think we would love to hear a little bit about your equipment and how detailed you went into getting yourself in the right position. The bike, the bike fit. And we are always telling our age groupers that they can get some free speed if actually spend some time concentrating on making sure they're in the, you know, got good equipment on their bike in terms of the handlebar positions and not so much spending money on their bike, but spending money on getting the bike fit to. To suit them. Can you, can you take us through how much detail you. You go into that when you're preparing yourself for your, you know, specifics, the way you ride your bike?

Yeah, it's been, it's been many years of sort of building on. Yeah. First of all, definitely getting the position sorted, I think. Yeah, if you can do some work on the position, whether it. Yeah, I don't know. There's sort of different levels. You can, you can start off just going by, you know, visuals and what is. What you know from other people is practice as, you know, a faster position. And then track testing is. Can be really useful if. Yeah, if you can get the equipment to do some testing on the track to try different positions and then so that validates a little bit what's faster for the individual. And then, yeah, obviously I've done wind tunnel testing, which is expensive and probably not something that the average person should look at doing. And then you get into like the different equipment choices and it's not necessarily always more expensive. Thing is better. Sometimes just a different brand of helmet suits an individual body shape better. So, yeah, what, what works for one rider is a bit different for another. And you can, yeah, you can make a huge difference with the different helmet that you choose. And skin suit. I think, yeah, having a skin suit to begin with makes a big difference. And then, yeah, I like. I had a quite a special skin suit for the Olympics, which made quite a difference for me. And then on the bike, yeah, there's, you know, like the wheels, the running gear, like the chainrings, jockey wheels, the chain, like, you know, having a traded chain. Yeah, there's so many different little aspects that you can go into to find aerodynamic and yeah, running like resistance benefits. So, yeah, it's quite a. Quite a dark hole to dive into.

Sometimes with all the testing that you've done. Could you give kind of like for yourself? Because it's not applicable to everyone. But maybe the top priority of things that you found were, oh, wow, this is actually Giving me the best, best return.

Yeah, so one of the, one of the biggest things, like, yeah, quite a few years ago was for me because I've got, like, not massive shoulders, but, like a bit wider than the average female cyclist. Like having my elbows, like, really, really close together because that, and then that brings my shoulders in. That made a huge difference. And then probably the next thing is, yeah, helmet makes a big difference. Like, probably can't say exactly which brand that I used during the Olympics, but yeah, that, that really helped me. And then, yeah, actually just practicing my position and being comfortable to hold, like. So I actually do a fair bit of training on the rollers on my time trial bike, which is quite a difficult thing to do. But it helps if you can, if you can do it. It really helps you hold your position on the road without having much, like peripheral vision. So it's given me a lot of discipline to keep my head down. Yeah, not, not look up every 10 seconds and yeah, just be able to like ride in a straight line. That. Because, yeah, with aerodynamics, the more you move, the more it affects your drag. So, yeah, being able to hold the. You can have like the best position in the world, but if you're constantly looking up or like you can't hold it for 40 minutes, then it's not really useful. So putting the time in to actually train, holding your aerodynamic position makes a big difference.

I think that's an underrated, really simple tip. Just riding straight. It sounds super simple on the surface, but to hear it from you, to say how much of a difference that makes, I think, yeah, that's, that's really important. So look, time trialing is such a key aspect of, of for our cycling athletes and our triathletes, because a time trial inside a half. Ironman or Ironman, the Cycle League, sorry, is just a time trial. And we're talking off air about the fact that triathletes have to run off it. But you gave a really good tip before around, you know, cresting the, the climb and keeping the power on over the top and keeping that average speed up and how important that is for time trialing. So what else could you teach cyclists and triathletes about? What other tips do you have to improve your time trolling overall?

Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I think definitely focusing on, on speed rather than. It's. It's not always about your average power. Like, yeah, sometimes I've done really good time trials and if you look at my power, it looks pretty average, but it's just because of the course. But you're, yeah, always focusing on, on doing the speed that's appropriate for like each section of the course. And yeah, I think like the technical skills on the time trial bike can't be overlooked. Um, if you're, yeah. If you're losing speed in corners, it's not really, you know, it's just like wasted speed if you're slowing down before you need to, if you're not taking a good line. And this is all stuff that you can like, you don't have to be. Yeah. You know, the most technically skilled bike rider in the world. You can like, you know, even go on Google Maps and like study. Okay, this is the corner and this like you just draw out on the map, like this is the fastest way to get around the corner. And then you go to the thing and you go, okay, that, that little mark on the road or that pole there, that's where I'm going to turn. Like, just simple things like that. It doesn't have to be this, like, you know, you don't have to be a skill master to be able to do it well. And yeah, I think just also, just like learning to be, to accept discomfort is a major thing to be a good time trialist because you're going to be in an uncomfortable zone for a long time.

The tips you've made are so valuable to everybody listening. And you know that you've lost a couple of world championship races by seconds. And I know you won the Olympic gold medal by an extremely long way this time round, but most of the events are always one with five or 10 or 15 seconds and you've lost. You've come second twice at the world titles by really narrow margins. And those little things that you're talking about, about cornering and getting back on the gas over the crest of a hill and keeping tucked as long as you can and staying steady on the bike. They're huge factors that people underestimate that are going to, nine times out of ten that'll be the difference between you coming first, second or third or, or fifth or sixth. It's, it's. Those narrow margins are so crucial, aren't they?

Yeah, definitely. I, I always in a race, just like keep reminding myself, okay, like every second counts. It's worth. Yes, because sometimes you have like the mind games, like, you know, you think that because you're in pain that you, you know, you're not in the competition and maybe like the race has lost already. But yeah, from my experience, especially those two silver medals at the World Championships. Like, I know that each second is important, so just reminding myself to, you know, keep doing everything right, right until the end of the race. Because, yeah, in the end it can be the difference.

How did that play in your mind, you know, as a double edged sword last year, losing the world chance by six seconds? Because you go literally six seconds off being world champion, so that gives you confidence in your ability. But at the same time, you're going far out. You have to sit on that for another year. Before Paris to go, it was only six seconds. How did that play in your mind all year when you're thinking about Paris in the race? How did you handle that? That notion of being right there?

Yeah, I think, I think it was mainly from a mental perspective, like just preparing myself for Tokyo. Why do I keep saying Tokyo for Paris?

How did you forget the event that you're the gold medalist in? That's pretty. That's pretty funny.

I don't know.

Fresh.

Yeah. But I think just reminding myself each, you know, each effort, whenever I'm in pain, like, okay, I need to, I need to keep giving that little bit extra because. Because that train is worth the couple of seconds that it might take to actually win the race. Yeah. So I think maybe I almost prepared myself too much for that. And I did, you know, I was going after every, every little inch of advantage on the course so much that, yeah, in the end it was 90 seconds that I won.

Yeah, but you had to, because you didn't know. Yeah, that's what time trialing is. You just put down your best performance.

Yeah, exactly. Um, and yeah, just to, to have that focus, like throughout the whole race. Um, so, yeah, yeah, no, thank you.

So much for those insights. It's, you know, in terms of the execution of the actual race, it's so valuable. And then all those tips, we just agree with so much, especially the speed one. We just did a podcast episode recently where we are so much about power in terms of training, um, but we constantly have athletes who finish a race with the highest speed they've ever done, but really poor power and they're disappointed. And we keep reminding them that on race day, it's about the speed. Like your power could be 50 watts lower and it doesn't matter if your speed's higher. So we're so glad that you said that. Um, and I want to move. Yeah, I want to move into. To finish off.

Yeah, exactly.

I'll go.

Go.

Yeah.

I was just going to say I don't think I've ever done a power PB in a time trial, like, it just doesn't happen. So, yeah, yeah, it's not like you use your power as a guide, as a tool, but it's not. The race is not about your power in the end. It's about your speed.

And like you said, just because the nature of corners, etcetera, Depending on the course, your average power will end up lower. And so it's about the execution of the course. So coming off that form. Yeah, I want to ask some final questions about the Tour de France, because you came into the time trial of that race obviously full of confidence. You were riding so well, and then you get a puncture. And to be honest, it looked like you were on pace to win. And, you know, we really looked at the footage and from the time that you put your hand up to realize you got a puncture to the time you got the new bike on, it was about 30 seconds, and you ended up, you know, 30 seconds behind the win. So it would have been very close in the end. I mean, how did that. How did that day feel to you?

Yeah, it's. It still hurts a little bit because I. I don't know. I wasn't actually that confident because it's such a different effort to the Olympic race. Like, it was, yeah, only 6.3 kilometers. So, yeah, we calculated less than eight minutes, which is a much higher. Like, I had to go out and target a lot higher power than I'd been training. So it was a little bit lofty to go after the win. But, yeah, still. Still went out there doing it anyway. And. And really, like, you can hardly pace it. You just go and do push as hard as you can for eight minutes. And, yeah, I. I guess, yeah, I came to. It was just before the intermediate time check, and I could feel like my rear wheel, like, it was sort of like a bit clunky. And then, yeah, I sort of bounced and I was like, okay, that's gone down. That's flat. And I originally waved and the sports director in the car behind me was like, no, it's okay. Like, keep going. Like, go, go, go. And I was like, no, it's not okay. I'm, like, pointing at my. And it's like, ah, okay. So, yeah, pulled over and also, unfortunately, like, I'd crested the climb and then stopped on the fastest part of the course, which isn't really ideal because you just lose a lot of speed. It was a quick change, but, yeah, with that distance, it, yeah, wasn't gonna help. But, yeah, like, still, when I got back on the bike initially, I was like, okay, well, there's no point in really racing for it too much now. But, um, yeah, my coach was still, like, yelling, like, okay, keep going after it. Like, you can do this, or I think it's lost. But anyway, so I kept, like, I finished the race. Um, but, yeah, I'm sort of glad that I did do the last bit, like, still all out, because maybe I'm not. Because then I could go back and, like, you know, look at the file and. And see exactly how much time I lost. And, yeah, it would have been, yeah, probably a win very close to 25 seconds. Whether. Yeah, whether it was that or, you know, maybe I would have lost by a second or two. But, yeah, it was. It was there, so. Oh, well.

Were you running? A lot of people want to know, were you running tubeless or. Or tubes in the tyres?

Yeah, it was tubeless, actually. Yeah. Yeah, for the. I'm pretty sure. I think sometimes our disc wheel is maybe a normal clincher. I might need to double check that. Yeah. Because it doesn't hold the same tyres that our front wheel. Pardon?

Do you. Did you remember hitting something or just felt it flat?

No, I don't. Well, there were. There were a couple of bumps on the course. I, like, I did hit some.

Rough.

Patches and we also crossed, like, a. Quite a lot of tram tracks and. Yeah, I don't know, some. Somebody had a theory that because when the trams go around the corners, they, like, sharpen the edge of the track. So that because I had, like a proper slice in the tyre, it wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't just like a normal puncture. It was like full gash. So it got cut. Yeah, it wasn't like a pinch flat or anything.

So a couple of questions on the. On the whole Tour de France. One, you had a good Tour de France. You were doing classic Grace Brown things and getting yourself up ahead of the peloton. You got a really good break. I think it was on stage six, maybe, where you were almost over the top on the last climb. But I think the three of you just got caught by the peloton. How did you rate your own Tour de France and how much fun did you have in what should be your last one?

Yeah, it was quite difficult, actually, coming off the Olympics, and I. Yeah, I think I was quite, like, emotionally and, like, mentally drained from the Olympics. So I struggled a little bit to find, like, personal motivation, you know, to go after my own ambition in the race. So, like, the first couple of stages were Quite difficult apart from the time trial because I'm just, you know, I'm like, so used to doing like, the process of getting in the zone for a time trial, so that was fine. But the. Yeah, the road racing I felt was difficult, like before each stage to, you know, to really get. Get mentally where I needed to be. But then, yeah, as the race went on, like, I find like a real sense of purpose helping. Yeah, like, I was able to be motivated by helping my teammate, Evita, and like, I really believed in what she could do in the race. So, um, yeah, I, I was able to find physical strength through, you know, the motivation of helping the team rather than my own ambition to go after as a result for myself. So, yeah, it's. It was positive in that regard.

She ended up fourth, which was such a great result for your team. And I think you personally put a post out just saying how proud and satisfied you guys were as a team for her to end up with fourth and, and that effort. We're really curious to ask you your thoughts on just observing and we're not trying to get you to say anything controversial here because there's a lot of drama surrounding the top three and Vollering versus New Uedoma, but just from your observations in the peloton and knowing what it's like with team dynamics, what are your thoughts on the crash and following not getting any help and then New Doma putting time into her in that last 3K and then obviously the last day was just absolutely epic. Just one of the greatest stages ever. But yeah, from your own perspective and being impartial to the team and that part of the gc, what were your thoughts?

Yeah, the crash on stage five was like, really interesting. A bit of. Yeah, a lot of drama after the race with how it went down. And I don't. Yeah, I definitely don't blame the teammates of Demi Vollering for how they rode because I think, yeah, you know, and also it's really hard to. For sports directors to get like, clear communication across in a scenario like that. Like, often, often they might not even have, you know, video of what's happening in the race. So to then be able to give instructions is difficult. So I mean, that's all complicated. But I think it comes down to, yeah, sort of the culture of how a team operates in general. Like a lot of teams in that scenario would like for us, for example, if there was a crash in the. In that part of the race, then. Yeah, I mean, what. As soon as that crash happened, like, everyone was on the radio saying, where's Evita? And we, you know, we stopped, waited, found Evita, and then, yeah, took her to the finish line as fast as we could. And for SD Works, I just don't think that that is, you know, something that. That taught, like, the process of thinking that they. Yeah. Are taught to follow. Like, they're so focused on, you know, they were focused on their plan to win that stage. So it didn't. It wasn't their automatic reaction to work out where their leader was because they're so used to Demi Vollering just, you know, getting herself to the finish and doing a good job and, like, she doesn't need to be looked after usually. So. Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. It's complicated in that way. Like, it's hard to say, okay, they, you know, they did the wrong thing. Like, obviously, yeah, they could have won the race overall if they did it differently, but I don't think then, like, the riders definitely aren't to blame for that.

That's super interesting. Yeah. And like you said, it was almost just a mindset of the team because your instincts as a team were to drop back and regardless of the sports director coming through, clear on communication, you would assume that if you're going for the Ella jersey that the other SD Works riders would do that. They ended up winning the stage. So it was a whole bunch of things in one, which complicate it, but like you said, in hindsight, she loses the whole tour by three seconds, which, if she had even just one teammate, let alone two dropping back to help her, could have saved that. So I guess on the other end of the spectrum, what were your thoughts on the final stage where, I mean, you probably didn't know at the time what was happening and you found out after, but the fact that the lead was changing within a matter of seconds for the whole Alpe d', Huez, pretty incredible.

Yeah. I could hear a bit on the radio, but I didn't really understand what, like, the time gaps were. Yeah. Or anything like that. And I think definitely people. Yeah. The expectation was that Demi Vollerin would be able to put enough time into New Adoma on Alpe to wears to, yeah. Make up for, you know, whatever happened on stage five. So, yeah, I don't know that, like, once I got over the line and heard what happened and, yeah, re. Watched some race footage, like, super exciting. Even if, yeah, the. The race wasn't as clean cut as some would have liked it to be. Like, it still makes for some good drama. Like, I think everyone was Tuned in and watching and yeah, it was, it was a good race.

So to finish off, we don't really want to. I don't know what the word is buggy with this kind of question, but you announced your retirement earlier in the year, but you're, you're at the top of your game. You've just won the Olympic gold medal. Are you still committed to retiring?

Yeah, I have been asked this question a lot, but yeah, I'm still. My plans haven't changed. I mean, in fact, like, you know, it was my plan to try and win the gold medal and it wasn't a. If, if I managed to do it then, then my plans might change. But yeah, the, the reason for, for me stopping isn't to do with my performance. It's. It's more to do with my lifestyle. And yeah, the fact that what I have to. Yeah, to leave behind to be over in Europe and race has just like taken its toll over the years. And yeah, I'm, it's almost like, yeah, having these great results in my final year just make it, yeah, more of a sweet career and like, yeah, it's just, I'm just, I just feel lucky to have had such a good experience and yeah, good memories and I don't think staying any longer will make it any better. So, yeah, the decision is the same.

That's a great, that's a great answer. And what better way to go out than on top? And regardless of. You've just said, regardless of where you finished in all of your events this year, you were going to do this decision anyway. But it's a fairy tale outcome for you to be so successful in your final year and you must be super proud of yourself and, and a big congratulations from us and thank you so much for your time. But the last question I've got is what does Grace Brown do from this point on? What direction are you heading to next?

I've got. Yeah, I mean, I'm collecting a few different things to do next year at the moment. Yeah, hopefully I'll still be around a lot of the cycling events and maybe do a bit of commentary. I want to stay as connected as I can with the community, especially in Australia. But yeah, I also have some, some plans that I'm working on developing a product and yeah, hopefully starting a bit of a. My own business. So we'll see how that goes. It's a bit of a, bit of a long lead time for that, so might be a while down the track, but yeah, sort of piecing some things together at the moment.

Thank you so much, Grace, for all your insight. It's been so awesome. We just, we love time trialing, as you can probably tell from our questions. It's, it's one of just our favorite parts of cycling and triathlon. And yeah, if you do give us this insight into it all has been just phenomenal. So congratulations again from us. And, yeah, thank you so much for joining us.

That's all right. It's been a pleasure to talk to you guys.

Awesome. This is Grace Brown. What an incredible career you're finishing off with. And we hope you've enjoyed this episode. And other than that, we'll see you on the next one.

Sam.