Track World Champion to World Tour Road Cyclist: Kell O’Brien

But then at the moment they caught me, I finally had radio again. And Matthew Heyman was on the radio and he was just like, you do not pull a turn like you sit on. You do not do one turn. But we were coming down the main road at like 65, 70k an hour, flying, like going full gas and it was so hard to not roll like you had to just roll.

This podcast is brought to you by Trib Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Kellen O', Brien, at just 24 years old, is already having a track cycling career to remember and has just started his road cycling career on the World Tour circuit. He had his first year last year where he learned a lot as he explains in this episode. But he is a very, very prom talented young cyclists on the road and has already got incredible accolades to his name on the track, including two world championships in the team pursuit, the Commonwealth Games and the team pursuit gold and a Olympic bronze, as well as a junior world champion champion title as well. And he is an impressive young rider, but not just physically, mentally and as you'll hear in this episode, the way he gives insight into his racing and training and how about how he goes about things, there is a reason that he's been so successful and you don't get a world champion title for nothing. He grew up in Kew, Victoria. He came from a strong cycling background and he got a contract with Jaco Lula at the start of the 2022 road season. And dad, this was just another awesome interview where we are so impressed with this athlete and he's in the middle of the spring classics season right now and we're going to try and get this episode a little bit out a little bit earlier than scheduled because we want to get it out before Tour of Flanders and Roubaix happens. And in the middle of a lot of the mini classics as well, because we really want to get this information to you about this guy so you can see some results. And hopefully in this period he has some good results, or at least Jacob, he can help Jaco have some good results. But what a conversation this was. Again.

Yeah, what an impressive human being this young man is. And very humble, very driven, very motivated and knows exactly what he wants to do. He's already had an unbelievably successful career and anybody who wins a world championship in anything would be almost their dream come true and his hunger for more is really evident and the method that he's going about making his journey as fulfilling as he can and wanting to make a career for the next 10 years. And he's got goals towards Brisbane 20, 32 and everything in between he's already mapped out and his perspective of how privileged he is it comes through and he's got a really old head on, a young set of shoulders and super impressive man. We just can't wait to see his his season on the track is coming up towards the end of the year with the World Championships, but right now it's all about Spring Classics for him and as everybody who listens to our podcast knows, we are just in love with the Belgian Spring Classics and we'll be over there to say hello to him and and cheer him on and hopefully everybody enjoys this episode as much as we did and it will be fantastic to see how he goes. He did make a selection in one of the races tours last year in the group of seven in the final. So one of his goals is to try and do that again and let's see if he does in the next four or five opportunities that he gets in in the month, the month of April. So look forward to hearing your feedback about how good a rider Kel o' Brien is and watch this space because there's more to come from this talented human being.

Absolutely. Here is the interview with Kellen o'. Brien, Kello Brian joining us from Belgium place. We can't wait to get to to see you racing. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

The first question we normally like to ask is what session did you do today? But it's the morning for you. Plus you've got an interesting week because you're racing Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. It's currently Tuesday. So what session did you do yesterday and how do you manage a week with three races?

So yesterday was actually wasn't the biggest day, but it turned out like it's a big day in terms of well, I got up at 3:30 yesterday morning and drove to the airport and then I had a very early flight to Belgium. I landed in Brussels a bit before 10am and drove out, kitted up and then met a mechanic who had a car with all my bike and everything. And then I went and did a recon of E3 which is the race on Friday this week. So I did about three hours yesterday with nothing structured. I just more about visually taking in the course. I know I know the course quite well but it's always good to, yeah, see it again and you know, you know how it is up here, like it's left, right up, down, just you know, very, very hectic. So it's nice to see the course but yeah, yesterday was a touch under three hours and yeah, nothing structured at all.

What's too late? What's today looking like, Kel, today?

What are we going to do? I'll probably go, I'll do between an hour and an hour and a half. Very, very, very easy. I'm quite tired obviously yesterday getting up at 3:30 in the morning. I still feel a bit tired today. But normally the day before a race I'll do some activations, I'll do six by 30 30s and then I'll do like between two and three, two minute efforts after that as well depending on feel. I do them all to feel. There's a rough guide that I have of, you know, the power that I should do. But yeah, I normally do those feel. But I've done three or three days in a row of kind of niggly harder sessions. So yeah, I reckon I'll just take it easy today.

Have you found that over the journey that your pre race prep has changed a little bit depending on what race is, how long the race is, how many races you got after it? Have you had to sort of manipulate that a little bit across the last year or two?

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Especially with the difference in training now. Like the way my body feels coming into a race is completely different to how I felt say coming into the Olympic Games on the track or something like that. Yeah. So I find now I like to do a lot more than I used to. Yeah, in the past I'd be more than happy to just do 20, 30 minutes on the rollers. Super easy, you know, a little build maybe to you know, zone two or zone three, get a little bit of heart, you know, get your heart rate up, get a bit of a sweat on. Whereas now like, you know, if you do 6:30-30s and 3:2 minutes that's quite, it's actually quite an intense session and I only started doing that towards the end of last year and just found I felt really, really good after opening up like that the day before. And yeah, I guess like you say, it sort of depends on what the week is looking like and what I've just done as well. So yeah, I've obviously had three rather intense days so I'm like, I probably don't need to open up that much.

You'd think it'd be the opposite. You'd think that for track session, for a track race, you'd do a bigger thing the day before because it's such a short event and then these long races you do less. Do you think you would now take this pre day routine back to the track when you go back and race?

Yeah, it was interesting going back to the track at the end of last year and sort of having to try and piece the two together. I hadn't really been on the track in a long time, so, yeah, I think, I think I will take a little bit of that in. I definitely, I changed my warm up a little bit and the structure of how I prepared for the team pursuit, say last year, at the end of last year, after having a full season on the road. So, yeah, I'm actually really lucky to have the physiologists that I work with. My, my trainer, he's been really, really helpful with stuff like that. And yeah, we've sort of been building our way into what we think we might do before a team pursuit, say, with such a different build to the past.

Have you found that since you've been on the road and you've got that road riding ability, strength now, has it complemented your track work and has your track work helped complement your road riding? Take us through that.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the, yeah, the years and years I spent on the track has definitely given me some tools, like weapons, I guess you can say, like for these types of races that I'm about to go into as well. I find like, yeah, there's certain things that the track can give you that, that is, yeah, super helpful on the road. But having gone back to the track at the end of last year was such a different feeling racing the track again with a full season of world tour road racing in your legs. Absolutely. It complements the track for sure. Even not just physically, but having been exposed to the world to lead outs and bunch sprints and how hectic, you know, even just lead outs into the bottom of climbs for the GC riders are so, so scary. And normally like in a madison, for example, which is the more hectic event on the velodrome, when I went back to do the, to do the madison, it just felt a lot easier to sort of move around the bunch. And yeah, I definitely gained a lot from a year on the road in that sense as well as physically for sure.

It's crazy that you would say that considering most people find track so scary in something like the Madison and even the pursuit and, you know, seeing the types of crashes that can happen and did happen to your team at Tokyo. Most people think that, yeah, the track is way scarier, but that just shows the intensity of the World Tour circuit, I guess, and how scary it really is. We will get to your track career because you've had an epic career so far and still so young. But I just want to bring it back to this week and kind of what's happening right now. We are just super fascinated by how you have to approach training when you've got a full racing calendar. For example, we said you got three races this week. There'll be plenty of races coming up in the next month, including some of the big Spring Classics. How do you manage your training load? Are you doing what most pros do and just really quite easy with a few of these niggle rides. Like you explained, you've got three races this week. How are you managing the whole week in recovery?

It's interesting. I mean, this is only my second time doing this period and last last year I, I managed to, you know, get through this month of the Spring Classics with a lot of success. Like we managed the, the fatigue really well and a lot of it comes down to feel and like I said, my. Well, I have a different trainer this year, but my current trainer is really, really good and on top of monitoring fatigue and staying in contact. So I mean, right now I'm actually still sort of getting rid of the fatigue from Pary Nice, which is over a week ago last week. I had a very, very easy week and more or less just road to feel for an entire week. And yeah, I'm still sort of shaking that out. So, I mean, tomorrow is not. Yeah, it's not one of the harder classics, but the weather is predicting. It's going to be a very, very, very hard day. So Thursday, if I'm looking forward to Thursday already. Yeah, I'll probably be very, very, very easy. Easy day, considering the day after that is quite hard. I find this period is really strange. Like it's not like a tour where you, you just going every day and you got no option and everybody's building fatigue the same way. You kind of. Some people might have a crash in the first 20k of a race, you know, and stay done, day over. That's all they, you know, and then other people, you know, you have 450tss that day. And so it's just such a strange period. And you know, you go Wednesday, Friday, Sunday, and then you have two days off and you go Wednesday and then you have three days off and you go Sunday. So it's like, what do you, what do you do on those days? Because three days is too much to just like completely shut it down. So yeah, it's a hard one. And like I said, I'm lucky with my physiologist. We talk every morning and yeah, it'll be interesting to see how we come out of the, you know, the races this week and build through, through the week after. Because ultimately the goal is to still be, you know, it's to be good tomorrow, but I need to be good in three weeks time in Roubaix as.

Well, you know, so, so that, that brings us to the question is which race are you targeting and what. And the team. What, what's your role in the next. Well, you know, you've got, you've got Flanders, you've got Roubaix, you're doing Shelter Pre as well. Is that what you were doing on the Wednesday?

Yeah, yep.

And, and these three races this week. So which, what's your goal from the race point of view and your own personal.

Well, I mean tomorrow is more or less we go all in for, for Dylan, it's a sprinters classic normally and my role within that is more or less to be looking after our leader in positioning and probably taking up a bit of wind. But given that it's going to be such an open day tomorrow, it's a tough one to read like that. But I mean, for me personally, I'm really, really passionate about E3dwasdor and Flanders. They're my. I just loved them so much last year and I'm really, really hoping to do the best I can on one of those days. I think it's awesome. Like I spend. As soon as the Classics were over last year, I've just spent the entire time thinking about getting back to the Classics and I'm so excited to be here, but I also need to be a little bit realistic at times and go, okay, well last year I actually only finished one of those races.

You finished quite hard.

Like I finished a couple of them. Yeah, I finished a couple of them out of time limit like so I actually did ride the entire thing. But yeah, I think sometimes you got to keep it a little bit in perspective and yeah, but one of those days between I guess tomorrow and the next Sunday there, I'm looking for any opportunity I can get.

Absolutely love that. And you said to us off air how much, you know that your teammates and everyone built up the Spring Classics and last year was Your first time really experiencing them and, and you just can't even describe what it's like. And we've tried on the podcast because once you get over there, you. It's just this, it's such a phenomenon. But talk us through your experience last year and then coming seventh at DAWS with such an elite group, you know, and Matthew van der Poel, just one of the strongest riders in the world the last few years. Tell us about that experience in that race.

Yeah, I mean, like you said, it is hectic and it's awesome how much it builds. Like the crowds and everything will be good tomorrow and they'll be good on Friday and then they'll be a little bit better on Sunday and then the following, like the whole thing just builds all the way through and it gets, it's really exciting. And yeah, last year I had an amazing experience. I, I did my first altitude block beforehand and then I came straight here and so it was all new to me. It was all fresh and like I said, I didn't exactly have the best classics, but I got through it really well and I got so much, so much load in. Like, I got, I think I had six, six days over 400 TSS in, in the block, which is like, for me, before then I'd only ever had like one day that was like over 400 TSS in my life, you know, so you just can't really like explain how much, how intense these races are. They're just like so full on. But yeah, Duasdor, I was, I was very lucky to get the opportunity to race the final there. I wasn't even meant to be in the break that day. I was trying to help, I was trying to help Luke Durbridge to get into the break actually. And we turned left at this corner and I was on Nils Pollitt, who's a, he's the current German national champion. I was on his wheel and he just, he just went for it. He did like a five minute, just full gas. Didn't even look over his shoulder once and they, they blocked the road and yeah, a group of us got away and yeah, it was, it was super, super hard. I mean, they kicked off quite early from the pillow and yeah, a group of five or six came across to us with I think like 65 or 70k to go. And yeah, I managed to get over the last few little bergs before the final around Warigam. And yeah, I mean, it was all, it was such an awesome experience and so good for my confidence at that point because I knew I was in good shape. Like, I was. I was doing good numbers and I was feeling really good on the bike, but obviously I hadn't made a final yet. And, yeah, then when I made this final, it was awesome to see. Like, you know, because you watch these guys on TV for years, and even guys similar age to me, you know, like Tom Peacock and Ben Turner and guys like this, you're like, oh, what's the difference? Like, how do I get to what they're doing? And, yeah, it was awesome to see. Like, even though I'd been in the break the whole day, once they'd done their massive effort in getting away from the pillow at 80k to go or whatever, then you're almost on an even playing field. Like, you sort of see, oh, like once you're in this isolated group and everybody has to chop off, it's kind of like, okay, like, you are human. Like, we are racing here. And that, yeah, that was amazing for my confidence, and I just ran out of legs. So the last 10 minutes of that race was just like, you could like, even, like a speed bump feels like a mountain at that point in time. It's just so hard. But, yeah, I was super happy to get a top 10 there.

That's great insight so far into this actual race, which is what we really want to find out, because this is brilliant. I feel like I'm in the frigging race with you at this stage. It's great. So you were saying that you're looking around thinking, you know, what does it take to be at this level? And here I am in a break with some of the best riders in the world that I've watched on telly. At what point in that. That chopping off, did you think, chair, I belong here?

Well, they caught. They caught us on Hot Onsberg, which is not exactly that much of a climb. But then it's really fast after that for the next 5 or 6K. And I hadn't had radio all day because the, you know, the radios don't go that far. They're behind the peloton, and we're in the breakaway. But then at the moment they caught me, I finally had radio again, and Matthew Heyman was on the radio, and he was just like, you do not pull a turn like you sit on. You do not do one turn. But we were coming down the main road at like, 65, 70K an hour, flying, like, going full gas, and it was so hard to not roll. Like, you had to just roll because trying to sit on, like, it's just. Yeah. So I started rolling and obviously I'd had a hard day at this point but then we had quite a long cobble section to go. Maria Boristra which is difficult. And then yeah, again hanging was just like hit the cobbles first wheel. Just whatever you do, just turn right onto that cobble section, first wheel and you'll be fine. So I did that and then I got halfway through the cobble section. I'm thinking like no one's coming around me here. Like I actually feel all right. And then the problem was after that we had the last proper climb to go which is normally used as a decent from the, from the Eichenberg but we use it as a climb this year in Dwarves door. And it was really hard and I knew like if I don't get over this, it's day over. It's still 55 or 60k to go at this point. And yeah, it was like one of these moments where like going across the top of this climb I had to shift into the big ring. And like normally I was thinking like I was just holding the wheel, just hanging on. Like I did my last pedal stroke about 10 times over the top of that climb but I like shifted into the big ring. I like look down and then I looked up and I was like still on the wheel. And then all of a sudden we like had crested it and everybody that was in the break with me was gone except for Nils and it was just, yeah, it was just us left. And then at that point I was like, oh, like I've made the final in this race. Like I wasn't, it wasn't. There was no question of whether I was getting to the finish then after that because like obviously all the climbs had been at that point I was like, oh, far out. Like I've made it here now. So yeah.

How important is confidence in your bike racing? Just explain to the listeners what tool confidence plays and what role it plays in the self belief that just give us a feel about that.

It's massive even coming from the track. I learned how to deal with that or how to use it as a tool I guess at quite a young age on the track. Because you get put into these situations when you're really young and you know all of a sudden you're on the start line to race for a world World Championship or Commonwealth Games or something like that. And in that setting for me I learned how to do that with a group of people like where you. I have absolute confidence in the guy next to me. That he's gonna do what he should, and I'm gonna do what I should for him. But that kind of changes a little bit now when you get put into these scenarios on the road where you are isolated, and then it is on you to have the belief that you can do it, but you can't just, like. I think you can't just, like, pull it out of thin air like you need to. Or for me, at least, I need to be. I spend a lot of time thinking about races for a long time out, and usually when I have a good result, it's because I've been thinking about that race for a really long time and sort of telling myself, like, no, you can do this.

But you have.

Those battles with yourself all day long. Like I said, I had my last pedal stroke about 10 times in the space of 30 seconds. You're like, just one more pedal stroke, and you fight those battles with yourself all day. And like I said, with these finals and bunch sprints in particular, they're so, so, so scary. And you just have to have, like, I don't know, like, the confidence that. Or the belief that you can do it and that you belong there. And I really struggled with that last year, actually, early last year, in the bunch sprints in particular. Like, I didn't. I just didn't really feel like. I felt like I belonged to there. I didn't have the belief that I could do it. And then throughout the year, I kind of got the confidence, oh, no. Like, you can do this. You can move through the bunch. And, yeah, it is massive, for sure.

Anybody in particular that stands out that's helping you with that, mentoring you and saying to you, no, no, you've got this. Is there anybody you could pinpoint that's helped you dramatically with that?

For sure. I mean, yeah, I was super, super lucky to be in the team that I am because I have so many Australian guys around me, which for me, I think is making a massive impact. Of course, it would be great to be in a European team and experience that, but for my development and someone that didn't really spend much time in Europe on the road. I've been to plenty of bike races now with Luke Durbridge, who's been over here for a long time, and also Michael Hepburn has been a massive, massive help for me in that confidence. And Cameron Meyer, before he retired last year, he was. Well, he's always, you know, always there checking in and helping me through the. To the bits that I was struggling with. So I'm really Lucky to have some older guys that I also have a lot of similarities with, you know, ex track riders. And yeah, it's been really, really good and they've always been, been there to help me for sure.

It's such an important topic and I really want to keep diving to this inside of, of giving, having self confidence that you belong because you know, you, you're in the top seven here at this epic Spring Classics race and you're against some really gun guys. You know, when Matty Heyman gets on the radio and says, don't you do another fucking turn for the rest of the race. You sit in a conservative. Know you've got, you've got Niels Pollard or Matthew van der Poel saying what the you doing when you're sitting at the back? You know, how do you handle that?

Yeah, nah, I think in a very isolated scenario, exactly like that. Yeah, you, I'd be very surprised if people, if many people got bullied into, you know, because of course you try, they, they will try. Of course they yell at you. They, if you try and sit on, they're going to yell at you. And, but at that point it's all one on one. Like there's no. And also like you, I suppose you get exposed to that like from a very, from the very start of your career, like even in local crits in Melbourne or whatever, like people always going to yell at you, but for sure they try. Yeah, they absolutely do. And yeah, like, like you said, like it was hard. I had to make like a lot of those times I had to make a call. Heyman was telling me one thing and then I wasn't necessarily doing that exact thing because it didn't feel right to do it at that moment. Like, it, I was just like, it's actually way harder for me to try and skip turns here. But after the race I said to him, I was like, oh look, sorry, I was doing that, but it just wasn't right. And he was like, no, no, no, absolutely. Like I can give you advice, but at the end of the day you're the one in the position at the time. And if you, if you make a call on doing something and you have a good reason as to why you're doing it, then yeah, that's what, that's all that matters.

That's brilliant. It's great to have someone like Matty Heyman in your corner who has actually won Roubaix. So you've got someone who's got genuine class there. So it's really good to have him in your corner. Is he as excited about the classics we interviewed him or a year or so ago. Is he still as excited about the classics as, as he's always been? Because he just loves it, doesn't he?

Absolutely. Like, he. Yeah, it's so special to have him, you know, de essing our team through these races and yeah, that like, I have a distinct memory of that race, you know, as my first good result in Europe, my first good result in, in Belgium. And I just remember, like, I can remember every word he said, like, to me in that last hour and a half because, you know, like you said, it's Matthew Heyman in your ear saying like, yeah, you're gonna get a result today, like, just makes you feel so good. But yeah, he absolutely loves it. And you. Yeah, you can't keep him away from these races, I don't reckon. So I want to go, I want.

To keep going through your road racing. Yeah. Just to finish off. And I've heard you speak about the fact that, you know, there's a lot of talk about that the one day races are probably your specialty, but you've. I know you've spoken about the fact that, you know, the Grand Tours are also the epitome and you really want to get yourself in good form for them. And you had a crack at the Vuelta last year and it's really cool to hear this insight of what you're saying in that the first part of the season or the year, you were really finding your feet and getting confidence of coming to those bunch sprints. And then we take it to stage 11 of the Vuelta and you're leading the train out and you are flying through that last kilometer and then you guys get the win. How good must have that felt in a Grand Tour to lead that sprint out and get the win for the team?

Yeah, yeah, it was really special. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I was really finding my feet in being able to deliver that role throughout the year. And I mean, even just getting the opportunity to, to start the race, the Vuelta, with the team and we started with a team's time trial, which is kind of like my dream, really. Like when I first started watching cycling full on was when this team, like when Green Edge was winning team team time trials and you know, and I was lining up with Michael Hepburn, Luke Doveridge, Simon Yates in a team title trial and there was unbelievable memories, actually. Yeah. But that particular lead out was just, it was awesome because we got really bad news that morning. Like our GC rider had gotten Covid had to go home. It was like the whole, you know, major purpose as to why we were there was kind of gone. And, you know, we still had the opportunities for the sprints with Kaden, but we were all a bit like on the bus, a bit down the dumps, you know, like Simon's going home. And it was a really, really long, boring day before, before the end of that stage. It was super hot. But yeah, for some reason we just clicked really well and we held the right hand side of the road for about 30k as a team. Like Durbo was riding all day and then he still held the side of the road for like 15k after being on the front all day. It was such a, such an awesome stage. I'll never forget it.

How amazing is Luke Durbridge? I mean, let's just. Can we spend 30 seconds on this guy? He is unbelievable. I just love everything he does. He's the true team man, isn't he?

Absolutely.

What a talented rider. But yet he'll do what you just said, ride for the team till he dies. It's. Imagine having him.

He, his ability to turn over kilojoules is, is unbelievable. Like, yeah, like he, he'll be on the front all day and then he'll still have enough to like do a pull into like a corner with 10k to go. And like when guys are just like running out of legs, he'll just find another, another gear. Even like the team's time trial we did last week in Paris. Nice. He, he did this peel from like 3k to go and mind you, like we'd gone full gas in this team's time trial and he did like this like 90 second pull. That was just like unbelievable. Afterwards I said to her, I was like, hey, like, I know you don't want to, but if you ever want to come back and do the teams pursuit, man, like, that was some turn. He's like, yeah, can we just, can.

We just talk about that, Perry? Nice team's time trial for a second. I know we're jumping around a bit, but, but give us an idea of how much time you were spending on the front. And I think there was Yates, Durbridge, Hamilton, Harper, Matthews, Sobrero, yourself. Is that, is that the lineup and.

Yep.

How, how were you working? Who was spending the most time on the front? And we do a bit of teams time trialing here just as, as masters riders and it's really intriguing. I'd love the guys to hear your take on how you came. You only lost by four Seconds. How did you manage that day? How did, how did plan.

Just before you answer, Cal, that bit of context, for anyone that didn't watch Paris, it was a different team's time trial in that only one rider had to cross the line and everyone got the same time. So, yeah, talk us through, Cal, how you went about the tactics, knowing that that was the, the way it would go.

Yeah, I mean, the. When they announced that, it was like only the time was taken on one rider. Everybody was sort of, oh, like, you know, there's all these different tactics you could do. But at the end of the day, in a, in a triple T like that, when it's so flat and quite long, it doesn't really change much. Like in a normal triple T, when you have to finish with four guys, you still want to keep, you know, at least six until very close to the end. Like, you don't want to have people doing peels really early because what is the risk of then, you know, running out of men and it's just so much faster the more people you have in line. So, yeah, I mean, in the end we were like, we were planning to do all our peels at the end, more or less. And of course, you know, you know, Luke Durbridge is going to hold his own just fine no matter what. Even if he's on his absolute worst day, he's still going to be unbelievable. We had a rough guide as to length of turns on the front, but you got to ride to feel and having done so much team pursuing before, it's probably something that comes really naturally to me. I don't ride to power at all in those scenarios. I just have speed. All I ride to is speed. And because the most important thing is, is delivery of speed and not never losing speed really. So whatever you're given, you need to make sure you maintain that. And I think a lot of people get really caught up in power and, and heart rate and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, the most important thing is speed. And I feel like that's something that I've, you know, I've got in my wheelhouse is my ability to judge pace on speed. But yeah, I mean, the rough guide was, I think Yates, he was doing 15 second pulls, 20 second pulls. Durbar and I were probably pulling between 30 and a minute for most of it and everybody else is just kind of Sobrero was doing 25 second pulls, something like that. And yeah, it was a ripper team time trial. Like it was one of those ones where in the first like 10, 15 minutes you're thinking like, oh, have we, like, have we gone out way too hard here or. But yeah, yeah, it's. It's pretty awesome when you got a team you know, as strong as that, that, you know that they're just going to hang on. Like, even Yatesy, like, Yatesy complains about, you know, obviously he's very, very small and we're very, very big, but man, he, he has some insane seated power for someone of his size. Like, he's unbelievable in team style. Shove. So good.

You have to be to be a GC rider, right?

This is true. This is true. Yeah.

Yeah, we absolutely, as dad said, we absolutely love the team's time trial event and it's so much fun even to get to do it as an age group and masters athlete. If you had it your way, do you reckon you would include it in every tour and especially the Grand Tours? You reckon it deserves its place?

It definitely deserves its place in the Grand Tours. I don't know if I would say every Tour. Like, obviously there's. Yeah, there's a fair few scenarios where like, I don't know, you Basque country races like that. I don't know if it need. But for sure and definitely the, like, the big one is the World Championships. I think that the World Championship team time trial was such an awesome event and I haven't run into anybody in the cycling world that doesn't go, oh, they should put it back in the World Championships or, you know, and the Olympics too. Like, when you go far enough back in the Olympics and you see it was like eight guys, 100k, like, man, imagine how much of an awesome race that would be if they had that back in the Olympics. Especially now because everyone's this resurgence of like individual pursuing and time trialing and everybody is just like, loves it again. Yeah, it would be sweet if it came back to, you know, all three grand. Well, I mean, there's one in the Vuelta this year, stage one in the Vuelta, but other than that there's not enough. I don't reckon so. Yeah, I reckon we should definitely get some more out there.

Let's move on to your track career. You've achieved so much already and I love the fact that you've said that you want to keep going back to it for the Olympic cycles. Roads, obviously your focus right now and you and you will do it throughout parts of the year, but you will definitely want to go to the Olympics each year. You already host such an impressive list of results. Common Games champion, two times world champion, Olympic bronze. Tell us what it was like to become World champion in the team pursuit at just 19 years old. Were you?

I was 18, yeah.

Yeah, even better. How was that?

Yeah, that was. Yeah, it was so special and I guess, like, I, yeah, my entire track career, I don't think I'll ever forget any of those milestones. Like, they're just so special in my memory. Even my, my junior, Junior World Championships was such an unforgettable time for me. And, yeah, I mean, I was lucky in a sense that I was coming out of juniors just as the Rio Olympics were finishing. And the head coach, Tim Decker, gave me the opportunity to come to move to Adelaide at, you know, 17, 18 years of age and be a part of the elite program and, you know, give me the opportunity to sort of put my hand up for the World Championships the next year. And, yeah, I just had an absolute ball. Like, I just absolutely loved it and I was just in my element. And I love track cycling so much, and the team we had, or the team we still have, but the team we had at the time was just an amazing environment to be in. And I had the older guys around me, like Sam Wellsford and Callum Scotson at the time and Miles Scotson and a few of these guys. It was really, really awesome for me to be around them. And, yeah, we built really well into those World Championships in Hong Kong and I was in probably one of the best shapes I'd ever been in. I reckon I was just feeling amazing on the bike and, yeah, just felt really, really good. And yeah, we came away with the World Championship there and I was lucky enough to get bronze in the individual pursuit a couple days later as well. Yeah, which is an awesome experience for me as a first year senior. And yeah, you never, you never take those World Championship experiences. Not just winning a World title, but the experience of going to a World Championships and representing your country is like, never take those for granted, I don't think.

And also, Cal, the preparation, you'll never, you know, you obviously got arrived there in great shape, in great form, and that's a really hard and difficult thing to do, to ride the way you want to on the day that counts the most. How satisfied were you with your preparation and just give us a little bit of an insight as to what it looked like.

Yeah, it was a really long build. I moved to Adelaide in September, October of 2016, and the World Championships were in February of 17, and I was a very fresh young junior and I just got thrown in the deep end. And I just remember the first, like, couple of months, I was like, just, like, crapping my pants every night. About the next day, like, you just like, how the hell am I going to do another one of these track sessions? You know, and. But, yeah, it was really good. And I think a lot of it wasn't really, like, structured in a way that's like, you know, actually to get yourself, you know, it's not. There's not that much science, I guess, behind how we prepared for the first half of that build. It was just like, you know, the head coach was like, right, let's expose this, these young guys to a heavy training load and see how they do. And I managed to get through the first part of. Right. But then I did. I started getting sick every now and then, and, you know, I was still sort of building up my immunity and. And stuff like that.

But.

Yeah, we ended up doing a nice build in Adelaide after, you know, we'd done some World Cups, I went to my first World cup in Colombia and, you know, long travel, get sick, do it again, another World cup, get a little bit sick again, do another build. So the preparation wasn't actually, like, perfect, but the final running was really, really good. And, yeah, I mean, at that time, I think it was just one of those moments where I was really, really happy and soaking up everything that I did at the time. And I think that that was the main thing, is that I was just soaking it up really well and just like, super happy. I think when I look back on any part of my career, the best form I've ever gotten to is always when I've been enjoying it. I think.

How important do you think that is? It's such a great sentence you've just said, and we're big believers in. And if you're not enjoying something, you won't perform the way you want to. And people who are loving what they're doing have great outcomes. How important do you place on that enjoyment factor?

For me, I think last year I learned. I really cemented this lesson. I think I had a really tough year last year, actually, in that space. I'd come off the Olympics in 21, and it didn't go anywhere near the way we wanted it to go. And I reckon I underestimated how much of a toll that took on me in that space. And I came straight to Europe from Tokyo. I never went home. I set up my life here. And then I stayed the entire winter of 2122 in Europe. And so I never saw My family, after the Olympics, I never, you know, got that resolve of the five years that it took to get to the Olympics. And so that was sort of weighing over me, I think. And, you know, being a young, young man moving to Europe and trying to find your feet and set up your life and set up tax and apartments and all that sort of jazz and, you know, like, and then normal, normal stuff, relationships and life and that sort of stuff. I really didn't understand how much that was affecting me. And I had a few moments really last year where, like, dwarves, doors, a perfect example, or the, the team's time trial at the Vuelta is another, is when I really, really noticed it was. I'd. I'd had a great prep, I overperformed for what I was expected to do. We had a good result. And then I was just sitting on the bus afterwards. Like, I got good numbers on my training peaks. I performed well. I had, you know, I enjoyed it while I was doing, was ticking all the boxes. But then I just wasn't feeling, like, not feeling anything about it. I was just like, ah, you know, I didn't get that feeling of, like, I performed well today. And yeah, I think at that moment I realized, okay, like, there's something not quite right here in my life. And yeah, then after having a nice end to the season and actually going back to Australia for the first time in over two years and seeing my family and finally getting to show them my bronze medal from the Olympics and just going back to Australia, really, things started to change again. And I started to notice, like, okay, like, I'm happy. I'm starting to piece together, like, what things in my life actually do make me happy. And I guess that's not always, you know, getting a result on the bike and that, that I found that last year I did get decent results and I was like, not getting that happiness feeling. And since then, I, since I started training back again at the end of last season, I haven't enjoyed riding my bike more in my life. I don't think, like, every day I go out, I'm like, I just love it no matter what. And yeah, I think the feeling I get at the moment, racing is just completely different to last year for sure. I can't actually, cannot stress it enough how different it feels when you have the other things in your life in the right space and you actually are happy.

How do you make that balance right when you are still back in Europe? Do you spend more time, I don't know, talking to family or facetiming family? Or something. How do you make sure you're keeping that up?

Yeah, absolutely. Staying in more regular contact with my family and friends back home is helping me a lot. And I guess there's some things that automatically get ticked off. Like I'm a bit more settled now because my apartment and everything is now set up from last year. But yeah, that's a big one. Staying in contact with family and just knowing, like, I guess knowing the signs, you know, that you're starting to get a little bit down or I guess, you know. I have a great sports psychologist that I've been working with for years and he's a massive help for me. And just little things, you know, like my guitar. It's nice to go home and play my guitar a bit and I find that helps me and just regular life things, I guess. And I guess also, like I said, I've got, I've got an absolutely amazing team around me and they all understand what it's like to be a young Aussie in Europe. So I've always got those guys to turn to as well, which is, which is really nice.

Have you, have you found in your young career already that if you got a perspective of where you are and how good a rider you are and the fun factor that you are doing what you love, riding your bike in races and you probably felt you were born to do this, is it hard to appreciate where you are or is it just still a journey that you're kind of finding your way? Talk us through that.

Yeah, definitely. Last year I, I did not feel like I was living the dream, I guess. But having come back and seeing things through a fresh set of eyes, yeah, everything feels that way now. Like I have this. I guess it feels like I have a much more broader view of it now. And yeah, when I see like the classics coming up or even just little things like just being at home in Andorra and just training in the mountains and stuff, it's like, man, this like 10 year period of my life is just, you know, or looking down the barrel of a 10 year period of my life of living over here and, and doing this sort of stuff. It's just awesome. And like I said, like going out on the bike every day, I just like have this overwhelming feeling of like this is actually amazing getting to do this right now. And yeah, it's a really cool thing. And yeah, I'm definitely, definitely not going to take it for granted, that's for sure.

The way you're talking is just shows such maturity and it's so Cool to hear that. It does obviously come from yourself, but also that help would come from working with something like a sports psychologist to really help give you that perspective. It's so impressive to hear and it'd be hard for athletes to, yeah, like you said, stare down the barrel of a potential 10 year career and go, nah, I'm really excited for what's to come and not feel too daunted by that. And I know that you are potentially looking ahead to keep cycling and keep making your way to all the way to Brisbane.

Right.

That's a long term goal for you and that's in 2032. So that's another nine years away that you're pretty committed to making this work and getting as much out of your career as possible.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean when that, when that all got announced, when Brisbane32 was announced, I was like, wow, that would be, that would be a nice way to round things out. You know, I'll be 34 years old, maybe I keep going after that. I don't know.

But a lot of people do.

It'd be pretty cool to. It'd be pretty cool to finish it off there. I reckon.

I do want to just quickly jump.

Back to that Tokyo experience. You said that it was disappointing to what you guys expected, which is so, so funny to say because I know that you're appreciative of the fact that you got a bronze medal at the Olympics, but you guys did, you know, being world champions did expect to be able to get gold in that infamous Alex Porter crash where his handlebar snapped and crashed at 65ks an hour, really, you know, rattles the team and yeah, you guys don't end up with performance you want now back in hindsight, you know, that was almost coming up to two years ago. How have you processed that and how do you look back on that, that result and that, that those games.

It's funny, it kind of ties into two things that we've said already. Like I didn't respect or feel any attachment at all towards the medal at all for a really long time afterwards. And it was only, it was only after I got to show it to my family that I felt like it was over and I got, I got the feeling of like the weight of the Olympics was off my shoulders only once I'd shown my family the medal. So yeah, it definitely wasn't the result we were after. And, and the way things went, we literally never got to see where we were at as a team. You know, once Alex had crashed, he was done and he was a massive, massive part in our team. And we did an eight week staging camp before the Olympics and he was by far best on ground across the eight weeks. He was in the form of his life like I've never seen. He was absolutely flying. So it was a really shame, it was a big shame to see him, you know, not be able to continue. And, you know, then the next couple of rounds, like, we had all sorts of extra issues that came along with the initial handlebar snap. Like, I didn't, I rode three different bikes across three rounds of team pursuiting. I didn't ride the same bike twice for the Olympic Games, you know, but looking back on it now, I mean, I look back on the five years before it more than I look back on the period of time the 10 days were in Tokyo or whatever. And yeah, it's one of those things, like, it's so hard to, like, no one outside our little team will ever know how we really were moving. We could have been going terribly, we could have been going amazing. No one will ever know. But as a group, we know, we know exactly how we were. And I know between Sam, Wellsford, Plappy and myself, the three guys who are still going from that team, we're like very, very hungry to go after another one. And yeah, it's exciting. Hopefully Paris, I mean, we actually, we actually haven't ridden together since the Olympics, which is, which is pretty scary to think about. But certainly in the future, we haven't forgotten about the Olympics. And yeah, there's a lot of unresolved unfinished business we should say.

It's, it's super motivating to hear you talk like that and all of Australia be unbelievably raped to see. You know, funny, I say this a lot. You know, you get what you deserve, but that was kind of one of the exceptions to the rule, I reckon. You know, things like that, mechanicals. It's just unfortunate, but it is part of, it's not really part of track cycling. It's never really happened that many times. But, you know, you never know what's going to happen next. And you really have to take every opportunity when it's handed to you, don't you? And this is another example. You've now got to wait four years to almost redeem what you felt was yours. You know, how motivated are you to put things right?

Yeah, like, super, super motivated. I mean, like I said, it took me a long time to actually take that weight off my shoulders of the Olympic Games. And I know as an Entire organization, we're kind of juggling the bat. Like we're trying to learn the balancing act of how do we manage professional road careers and the track. And being in an organization where all our equipment and everything is based in Australia, it's a logistical nightmare.

But.

But deep down I know that the core of our team, men's track endurance, the work that we had done leading into Tokyo was just extraordinary. And yeah, as far as races go, that's the one, that's the absolute one. That has always been the one you want to win. I couldn't think of anything else I'd really rather do. And you know, in team pursuiting and the Madison, yeah, there's a really special group of guys from our nation that are going for these events. And yeah, to me it means so much more than just like the result or. It's such a feeling. It's such an amazing feeling when you do it with a group of guys. It's like you've just been working together. You know, everyone is just so hungry for it and, you know, you pull on the green and gold and you get it done. And we've had a taste of it at the Commonwealth Games and a couple of world records and world championships, but, you know, there's a big one missing there and it's not gonna. That feeling won't go away until we get it done.

It's bloody awesome. Cal, your insights today have just been phenomenal. It is just the stuff we love and listeners are just going to relish in it. You've got a really exciting period of racing coming up. We can't wait to watch you. Just looking a little bit further ahead, do you have any insight from the team about a potential Grand Tour that you might be prepping for? Or is it too early in the season? You'll find out a bit later if, if you're going to be aiming for one of the three.

No, I think, I think this year it's not looking likely. Obviously the Giro is pretty well off the cards doing a big classics prep and the World Championships are in August this year and that's a pretty massive goal on the track and that kind of means it's not great. Doesn't really work to do the Tour de France because you're trying to prep for the track and the Vuelta is directly after the track World Championship, so you're not probably not quite in the correct condition to be doing a three week tour of Spain. So, yeah, it's not looking likely, but I'm still hopeful. I mean, the Vaulted. I think there's, if that was an opportunity to do that, especially with the team's time trial stage one again, I would love to do that. But yeah, I suppose we'll have to see once we get out the other side of spring and yeah, get through those summer races like one week stage races in June and yeah, I guess we'll go from there.

Any final questions from you, dad?

Yeah, it's interesting because when I hear you talk about your year ahead, it kind of impresses on me that this period right now is your period, isn't it? The spring classics period is kind of. Because you've got the track stuff happening which is going to interfere with the Grand Tours and a lot of the other summer summer events. So it's really the spring classics is kind of the, the period that you're, you're gunning for right now. Is that kind of accurate?

Yeah, absolutely. I spent, yeah, as soon as I ended my season in October last year, I had a break. And then we, we said, right, we go all in for trying to get into, you know, good enough shape to have a good spring. And yeah, I mean this is this for me personally, but also as a, even as a writer just within the team, this is where I can get a lot of good work done. And yeah, I'm passionate about it. And yeah, this is really the meat of my season, the spring, I guess coming into tomorrow and the next three weeks. This is the biggest part of my season for sure.

That gets us excited to think about what you guys could potentially do next month. It's going to be so good to watch you guys race. One final question from me, it's a bit off the cuff, but it was a fact. I wanted to check that in your team pursuit or maybe it's just your best four minute power, but you ride for four minutes or in your race case, 349. We heard that you hold over 600 watts for the entire race or your best four minute power is 600 watts. Is that correct?

Yes. For the team pursuit I've done over 600. For the TP. Yeah.

Geez, that is unbelievable.

That is just things. I think it was, I think the fastest overall time we ever did, which was in a trial in Melbourne mid covert. I think it was somewhere like 6:15 or something like that for three minutes, 40 something. Yeah.

When, when you look back at your data, what are you doing for the time on the front? If you're doing 600 for the whole four minutes, what, what are you, what are your numbers on the front when your turn comes.

Yeah, lead TP power is 650 to 750, depending on. Depending on. Yeah, a few things. But yeah, lead TP powers around that. 700 watts is kind of like a. Or I guess. I guess we're aiming for, say, north of 3,900 watts per CDA, something like that. Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Yeah, it's quite large.

That's a good way to finish, mate. Well, we're heading to Belgium next week and we can. I can't wait to see you. We will be on the Quaromont seeing you come around three times. We'll be screaming your name for sure when we see you. We'll be there for Paris Bay as well. We can't wait to get over there and, yeah, pump for the next few races ahead. We can't wait to see all your results and see how you and all the boys go. So good luck with it from us. Yeah, thanks for. Thanks for jumping on today.

Yeah, wicked. Thanks so much for having me. I'll see you guys in Belgium.

Anything from you, dad?

No, I'm just really wrapped that you give us some time, Kel. And you've got such a future in riding the bike because you've got your head screwed on incredibly well. And we've interviewed quite a lot of people over the 160 episodes of podcasts that we've done, and it's really refreshing to have someone as motivated and as in love with bike riding as you. And as we've talked about during the podcast, the people who love what they're doing end up being really good at it. So. So keep doing what you're doing and we're gonna have all of our listeners watch with. With huge enjoyment as to seeing your progress over the journey. So thanks very much, mate, for taking the time and good luck for. For this next month.

Ah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate the kind words. It's nice to jump on the podcast and, yeah, safe travels over to Belgium, I guess.

Appreciate it. That's it for this episode. Thanks always for listening and we'll see you on the next one.