Tri Coach Does Post-Race Breakdown With Athletes Live

This podcast is brought to you by Trivalo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Two rookies in their debut year as pro triathletes, two full time doctors who have become two very good friends and most importantly, two very good humans. Welcome back to this series, following along these two fine gentlemen as they juggle the tough job of entering the pro circuit while still working full time jobs as doctors and as they hope to keep improving and move up the ranks in the pro triathlete world. In today's episode, Ironman Disaster and huge training PBS Coming up, we're going to talk about Roland's pro Ironman race debut after he's 2:70.3 races already and Tom's insane half marathon PB in training and much more. So we'll get straight into it. Roland, I, I say Ironman Disaster. It's very aggressive language. There's always learnings in, in results and races. But I want to make the point to start with that it's okay to be disappointed with a result. And off air you just mentioned that through gritted teeth you say, well, you got to take the learnings and take the lessons. But we can acknowledge that it didn't go the way you wanted and we're going to chat about it and see what happened and just chalk it up and say I'm not happy with it. But yeah, of course there's things to look at and things to learn from. So to catch everyone up, you did Port Mac 70.3, which turned into just a bike run as a swim was canceled. You had an elite bike there, best bike of the day there. Six weeks later you decide to step up to the Ironman and did not have the best day out. The. The swim went well. We'll go through it all for the most part in very tough conditions. As for everyone, it was very choppy. Um, the bike did not go to plan as, as the ride went on and then yeah, the run was just a matter of getting through the day and, and yeah, a fair bit off the pace of what you wanted. So we'll go through what happened and the specifics. But as of right now, question I want to ask, and in hindsight, how do you feel about your decision to race the Ironman?

Well, I do agree it was probably a disaster. It's probably the apt words or so I can't say enough about That, I mean, I remember having that conversation with G earlier on about making a decision to do the race. And I'm always going to say that it was the right decision to go and do it because it was such a fun experience regardless, even though during it I was probably hating my life. Looking back on it, you know, it's always an experience to go and do one of those events. So it was really fun, and I've taken a lot of key learnings away from it, and even if it was painful and, you know, pretty disappointing, you know, I still did enjoy that experience. So I think in the end it was a, you know, a good decision. G did make the point of saying when I was, you know, tossing up with that decision of doing the race or not doing it, that I would be, you know, missing out on some, I guess, valuable time in training throughout the winter that you could optimize for later on in the season. Which, I mean, if you're looking at it now, probably in hindsight, it would have been good to maybe just capitalize on that, you know, those weeks that, you know, it could have been tapering or tailoring more towards 70.3 distances, like what Tom's been doing in his training. But, yeah, I think all in all, I don't look back and wish that, you know, hadn't gone and done the race.

So, yeah, part of the whole athlete experience is, is enjoyment. And we talk about that a lot on our podcast. And I think it's a really important point you brought up that you really had an urge to do this, and I feel like you would have. You would have just regretted not doing it no matter what, because you really just. You have this itch that you wanted to scratch, and that's part of it, you know, And I think you accepted after the conversation with dad that it might not be necessarily the perfect thing to do when you're training right now, but it's still something you really want to do. I think there's huge value in that. And, Dan, I just want to get your thoughts on. Not so much we'll go through the race in a second, as I said, but just in hindsight, your. Your thoughts around the decision and. And looking back, what you think logically.

You would say that you're a. Not prepared for an ironman. So that's going to be some issues there on race day. And so as long as your mindset is able to cope with that. And, you know, to be fair, the two. The two guys that are on this podcast, Tom and Roland, and I Put you in this category too, Jordan, and probably myself when we put a number on. There's none of this, you know, I'll just have a casual race day. It's. I'm going to race as hard as I can. And that's the detriment of probably an event like this where if you're not actually fully prepared for an Ironman. And that was one of the things I said to Roland early on. Well, we actually haven't trained for this, so we're just relying on your endurance training. That's not very specific. It's very specific for 70.3 and it proved to be that because you were the fastest pro at Port Mac. So we'd done a fantastic job for you to be the best bike rider and Tom wasn't far behind you. And so we specifically trained for an event. And that for the listener, should, should, should really be obvious that, you know, you, you can't be flippant with some of your choices. You have to be really consciously deciding on stuff that's actually in your weaponry in a current period of time. So, so as much as I'm I said to wrong, if you want to do that, that's absolutely fine by me. But you have to understand the consequences there. There are many consequences with this decision and one of them being, you know, and he's obviously looking at what Tom's doing during this period compared to what he's been doing. And Tom would be the same looking at what Roland's doing, thinking, maybe I should have done that Ironman. That looked like it was a good experience. And so you're both eyeing off each other's different program now, whereas before they were quite similar because you've gone down the Ironman path and Tom's gone down the winter base building period and, and each one of you is sort of saying, I wouldn't mind swapping. And Roland could sit in that position going, you wouldn't want to do what I just did. And Tom's probably thinking, I'm happy I didn't do that race. Seeing what happened.

I think the thing is, if Tom hadn't did the race, he probably would have executed it very well. Probably would have come top 10. So I think he probably wish he would have done it.

So.

Sorry, George. I was going to say that's a great point, Roland. I can guarantee you Tom would not have executed any differently to you and he would have had a similar outcome. And I'm not, I'm not being disrespectful to Tom or you but you are, you are very competitive, both of you, and you can't, you can't do a defensive style of racing, especially when we're trying to learn, we're trying to learn how to race differently. We're not trying to learn how to race like an age grouper anymore. We're trying to race how the pros race, which is high, low power, over under. All of our age groupers who are listening should not be listening to that tactic. It's steady state riding. Stay in your ranges, whereas you guys have to change that, that up. And that's one of the reasons why you come unstuck at 120,130k is because your body's still not ready for that. And had you done that race with the same fitness, but changed your tactic of I'm just going to ride 180ks steady state like I was at an age grouper, you would have breezed through that race, you would have got through it no problem. And I think the listener needs to hear that. The difference between the tactic that you're trying to practice, both you and Tom now, which is to be an over underwriter, to go with surges, to sit in to go again, that's not what we want to do as age groupers. And so you guys aren't, you're not, you haven't been doing it long enough yet to cope with that. And that's what we're working on over winter is I've got Tom doing lots of hills where he's surging and recovering and surging and recovering for four, five, six hours. So to be fair, there's a lot that went into this decision that has hidden consequences that only get revealed after the actual day.

Just a quick one, Tom, did you have any FOMO not doing an Iron Man?

Yeah, I think, I think we might have touched on it briefly on the, the previous podcast. I felt as though I was almost preparing, preparing to do the same or, you know, getting inspiration from, from seeing Summer Rollins preparation and making me pull my finger out and get some good, good endurance work done as well. So I definitely, it was almost mentally and, you know, physically preparing as though I was doing Iron man build, knowing I was never actually going to do it. So that was a good sort of motivated get me through that first part of winter anyway and bake some good work. But yeah, I was definitely very, very envious watching on the day. And I was, I was texting Jared as Roland got out the water, super pumped. I thought of, very excited for what was to come. I'm thinking, you know, I almost back Roland in, you know, eight out of 10 days that he probably would have, would have had a pleasing day in a circumst sense that he wasn't. Unfortunately it just, it just didn't come together on the day for him. But having seen some of the preparation be done, albeit you know, shorter than ideal preparation, I was still really excited to see what he was going to be able to do in, in a pretty quality field on Big Sage. So yeah, yet to debut in the full distance so it's still something's a bit daunting to me trying to get my head around it. But yeah, it was, it was really good to be able to watch along.

We'll go through exactly what happened and I will say that you know you get so many learnings from pinning a number on and despite how any race goes you, you're going to learn so much from every race. But also we do tell our athletes that train for an Ironman is the hardest thing you do. It's just the most intense preparation. But the bulk kilometers in volume you do is actually the best base training and unless you're forced to do that for an Ironman you, you tend not to do that volume. And Tom, I think you were feeling that before the race. You're looking at Roland going geez, he's doing some awesome K's here. I feel like I'm missing out a little bit. And that's true because even though it was a very short build for him, you still are stepping up those Ks. And so we say to all our age group athletes, gee, it's hard and it does take a little bit to recover from which is that potential missing out period that the coach was talking about. Dad, in terms of it takes away from your training a little bit but at the same time we see a big propulsion forward in a lot of athletes if they can keep training through, if they can recover, maintain and then keep training. It's almost like now they've got that Ironman base to build off. They're in such a good position which is so great for you Roland. So take us through swim was.

Sorry George, I just want to butt in on that, that topic there because we've got such a great example of what exactly you just, you just said there that training for the Ironman which is what Tom's been doing even though he's not wanting to do the Iron man just yet, that's the training we've been giving him for his endurance rides and running and you know, we'll talk about this later in the, in the podcast, but he came out and did a PB half marathon with no real intensity training different that we've done anything in the last, I don't know, two years except for extend the long endurance run. And, and that is, that's the value you get from doing that Ironman type training. And if we had given him a 90k time trial, he's already done the half marathon, he would have smashed a 90k time trial because of that strength and endurance that we so much talk about in this podcast series. And that, that's, you know the thing that Roland didn't have that consistency to do that in that period between Port Mac and Cairns, whereas Tom has gradually done that over an eight week period. Whereas for Roland we had recovery from Port Mac and then was it three or three and a bit weeks rolling of specific Ironman stuff whereas Tom's been doing consistently building and that's kind of a missing link for Roland there. But that's the nature of selecting events that are giving you a compromise situation. So yeah, sorry to butt in on that but I really wanted to make that point how important it is that that endurance type of training impacts the shorter stuff. It's quite incredible the data we've got to explain that.

So Roland, the swim went quite well despite really tough conditions. I think it was markly slower for everyone but you know you've come out exactly where you want to be and that's why Tom was messaging dad. Pretty pumped. How'd you feel in the swim and coming out of it you're in a decent position.

Yeah, well looking back I thought I was actually further up than I think I ended up ended up being. In the end I thought I was probably more in the main chasing pack and I was probably in a second chase pack with like Ben Howser and Jared Osborne and some of the other guys that are pretty well up there. But yeah, felt pretty comfortable in the swim despite the really harsh conditions and then to sort of maintaining an effort that I thought was pretty comfortable and came out there or thereabouts I think maybe seven minutes down or so on the main group, all the front people and then maybe like five minutes back on the taste group. Yeah and felt pretty good coming through transition. Not much to report really from there it was just sort of in my head going through. Okay, there's a few guys, there's maybe 20 seconds ahead that I want to quickly bridge up to and get onto so I can be within a path dynamic and not just out of my own all day. And so we quickly got onto the bike and started rolling through and tuned through some people quickly and then just found that I was sort of on my own. Very quickly within the first five minutes had passed Matthew Marquardt who was busy cramping and I think struggling with that. And then we got to the first aid station and then he had obviously come good Matthew that is and just flown by me and I think I was sort of doing around the, the race tower that I was trying to hold of about you know, 300 to 310 moths which we had done in training. So I knew that I was there or thereabouts in able to do that for about the, the Ironman distance. But it was just feeling very sluggish to begin with and I think I was sort of hoping that that would be just from having done the swim now transitioning to the bike and that my, my legs would start to come good after about 20 or 30 minutes if I was getting it a bit of time. But yeah, he, he blew past me very quickly. He must have been going very, very hard because as I said he went straight past and I was trying to stay on his wheel and I think I was pushing about like 360 or 370 just to sort of stay in his draft and I was still getting dropped behind him. And then we got into this rolling sort of section within the, the Cairns terrain which is really beautiful and makes it a really interesting biocraft but also does make it a bit more of an over under effort as you know we were discussing earlier. And so I was really going well without of my range early on there for when I was trying to mold going up to around 400 or 500 watts just to try and stay with the Matthew at some of these points and so sort of stuck with him. And Matt Hansen I think was there as well up until around 40km or 45ks into the ride. And I think at that point I honestly just like was pushing down at the computer and thinking oh, I'm not feeling very good at the moment with the power that I'm pushing. Even if it was a 70.3 I would have been a bit worried and whether or not I could have held that for the full distance to be honest. So I was looking at I'm going to have to back off otherwise I'm not going to be able to cope. And so yeah, I made that decision just to go back to my own power range but I think I'd already As Tom would say, spent a few, few too many berries probably early on in the race, since I was struggling. And then there was some, because there's a few different out and backs, I think through at the 45 and 90 kilometer points, I could see that there was some of the other pros that were racing sort of gaining time on me, and even some of the age group was gaining time on me, which was a bit, I guess, foreign for me, where I usually try to be pushing myself up towards, I guess, the front of these bar sections as you rotated sauce. And so I was finding that I was getting caught and, you know, in my head, sort of being like a bit despondent at that point in time, then got caught by this group on the bike and around, I think, 100Ks or 110Ks, and then was finding that I was getting dropped from that group, Even just doing 280 watts and at around 140 kilometers, cramped up really badly in pretty much both legs, both all my muscle groups, like my quads and my hamstrings. And so every time I did a. Anything above like 260 watts, I think I cramped up. And then at one point I had to get off the bike. Had to get off the bike. Yeah, it's the worst. Yeah, absolute worst. I had to get off the bike at one point. It stretched, and I think I was stretching for about two or three minutes on the side of the road, and just more and more people kept on coming past me and then I was. It's one of those. But I'm sure everyone who's trained or done any sort of bike riding knows there's just some days where you're going into a block, headwind, you're pushing power, you're sitting up, right. And you're just. All you want to do is just get off the bike. I mean, or call someone to come and pick you, pick you up, or you just want it to be done. And that's where I was. That's really where I was at. Yeah. And it was, it was a long, you know, 15k slog back into town. I think I was going about 28ks an hour on the bike. Yeah, it was just really horrible. And in my mind I was like, oh, that's it. I think I wanted to pull the plug. And I thought that, you know, it's just at this point in time, you know, knowing of the sessions that we had done in the weeks leading up to the events, knowing that I, you know, the, the capacity that I had was so Much more than, you know, what I was doing on the day. I just felt quite embarrassed and, you know, was, was just disappointed and that I knew that's just not what I'm capable of. And so, yeah, I had every intention of just getting off the bike and, you know, going back to the hotel room. But then I thought about it, I was like, oh, oh, just what am I going to do? Just go and sit in the hotel room and sit there whilst everyone else is running and not really do anything. So I thought, oh, I may as well just start running and then around, like to try and, you know, at least get around the course, maybe I'll come good. And so pretty much started running, didn't come good with the longer, the short of the long since walks for the rest of the marathon. Pretty much got lapsed by. I think I got lapsed by every single male pro, got passed by every single female professional and probably every other single age group as well. But it was, you know, quite a humbling experience. But also it was amazing because everyone, you know, it doesn't matter in any of these races. Everyone is just so supportive from like the volunteers, all the other, you know, people racing and competing. It's just, yeah, it gives you a different perspective on, you know, it's sometimes it's not just about rights, but it's an experience, as you say, Jordy.

So, yeah, it always makes me laugh the, the scale of the iron man because it just gets lost when in discussion. I feel like still, because that I completely get that logic, you know, going, I'm here now, I might as well see this through and, and get it out. But for most other people, you're like, oh, I might as well just run a marathon now. After, after I just wanted to use the grid of the bike. It's, it does make me laugh. But I just want to step in and say big kudos to you for willing to come on here and talk about it because you use the word embarrassed and humbling there and it just doesn't feel good. And you boys doing a really good job of coming on here and it takes a bit of risk to be public about your training and your racing goals and you've got more eyes on you. And we had plenty of people keen before the race to find out what happened and keen after to just ask what happened. And it's one thing inside yourself and any age group will know if the result doesn't go your way. You get that feeling a little bit that you almost feel like you've let your friends or family down, which is just not true at all. They never feel that way. But as athletes we just feel that you put so much time into training so to come on here and talk about it, it's just unreal. And dad, I want to let you step in here and just talk about any notes you have just from the race so far and what you think. Hearing Roland again.

Yeah, and look, it all comes down to execution a lot of the time and when we look at some of the data that Roland's done over the journey, Harvey Bay, I was actually just looking the other day what the numbers you pushed there when you won that race late last year. And you know, you get perspective then of what you know you're doing. 180k in an Ironman you're doing, I think at Harvey Bay was 80k, wasn't it rolling that day? And so you know you pushed, I think your normalized power at Harvey Bay was 343 watts. And you know your best 20 minutes in the Ironman at Cairns was, I think it was 3:30. So you know you did that in the first hour of that race and you had a five minute effort of 381 in the Ironman. So, so those numbers will hurt you. And, and they did. And, and my, my perspective is always, well, what did you do at Port Mac? And you know, you were able to, you know, be the fastest rider there. So you don't, you don't just become a really bad rider in four or five weeks time from where you were at Port Mac. It's something you're doing that's actually causing it. And so, so that's why digging into the numbers is really helpful because it's, it shows you that well, my body's not ready for five minute effort at 380 watts in the first 12, 15 minutes of, of a race. It'll have a big impact on me. And that's what we're trying to learn for you and Tom is to get your body ready to cope with these over, under efforts so that you can keep, you can keep recovering, you can keep going again because I've said it, I think in the last three podcasts we've trained you for three, four years where we've just got you to ride in the zones and now we're flipping it, we're trying to get you to ride outside the zones. Um, and I keep saying it, age groupers don't try this, this is not for you. And, and you, you've got, you've got to Give yourself time. Just like we would tell you when you very first started with us, you know, you've got to give yourself time to learn this skill. So, so I think, I think it's fair enough that you want to try and race the race but you just, you're just not prepared enough yet for that at this particular time in your journey. That's, that's kind of my summary.

And what's, I mean you rolling you speak about, you spoke about as well just the feeling you have on the day and, and we, you know you've got to, we've always got a feeling compared to numbers and if you're having a slightly off day it's just going to compound any sort of over under effort by a long shot. You know exactly what you said. You just felt like even if it was a 90k effort you wouldn't have been feeling good. But especially with you know those peak power numbers they would hurt you in a 90k effort they're going to hurt you more in 180 kilometer effort they're going to hurt even more if you're having somewhat of a off day or a sluggish day. And then combine that with you know, probably the world's top, I don't know, 35 Ironman bike riding athlete at the moment jumping on his wheel. That's going to be tough as well. So as always when we, when we dig into the reasons there's, there's never one reason that's what the whole coaching experience is about is, is going what what could potentially the fact has been here and just thinking about the run and kind of learning from that it was just a bit of a slog to get through. You ended up just walking a lot of it. You know what kind of pace we was was the actual plan. What, what did you think you, you could hold for that?

I think it had sort of decided in my head that I was going to try and start around 4:24, 15 pace and sort of go from there and see how I felt the aim was to try and run a sub 3 on hair thon I guess based off some of the good sessions that I've put in leading up into the race. But as I said that just for them wasn't going to happen on the day unfortunately especially after you know that incidents but you know it's so true to it as you say just doing the over under if it's does really take it out of your, takes it out of your leg so quickly and whilst at the time you, you might Think it's, you know, you're able to maintain that it's. You really will just pay for it later on in the race that, you know, as I did. So it's, yeah, it's quite a good learning experience to see that that's something we need to go and work on and try and implement and I guess with endurance, what there's just so many, there's so many aspects to training that and things that can potentially have a difference and I guess it's handy working with, you know, yourself who's got so many athletes and so much experience in that you can take from many, many different people. And so I thought that maybe my tapering coming into the race was potentially something that, you know, might have caused me to, you know, feel pretty sluggish coming, coming onto the bike. I found that in the past that, you know, a lot of my good sessions have been off fatigue. I think we, I mean quite a few days like we've quite easy riding and running coming into it which at the time I thought was like maybe what might have caused me to feel a bit sluggish on the day. But now looking back at, it's probably easier to see that those over under efforts at the start of the race, we're probably more to blame. But yeah, as you said, there's so many different facets that you can look.

At for improvement and look, I just want to jump in again Jordan, when Roland's done a lot of our testing over the journey, we've had lots of harsh lessons, haven't we Roland, where you've really gone out too hard in a lot of your testing sessions and one I reckon vividly remember and you'll obviously remember the same because I made you ride FTP test immediately, a day later to do it again, do it properly and, and you, you started at some ridiculous number, four hundred and I don't know, four, was it 440 or 450 and ended up at 380?

Something like that. Yeah.

And, and I said to him, well the best way to learn this lesson is you're doing it again tomorrow. And you were, you thought I was joking and, and I said no, I just want you to learn the lesson of execution. And so I want you to start at 380 and see where you end up. And you ended up at 470 or something, some ridiculous number and, and it was just the same level of fitness, 24 hours a day. In fact you were more tired because you just done a, you know, yet you you smashed the number. You, you got the number you deserved. And, and that's not what we're asking you to do in this race, but it, it just shows you the impact of how debilitating it is if you red zone or red line or lactate too early. And, and that's the thing we've got to practice. That's the thing we're learning here is to get you better adapted at coping with the over unders. And, and that's the really good thing to learn from this. And look, about the run, I just want to make a comment. You know, Lionel Sanders, who's winning everything now at Kona, came 34th and ran almost the same time as you did. Christian Blumenfeld has won Kona and he, he came 28th and had the worst run of his career. And he hasn't lost a race since that event. He's won every single race since that event. And so don't be too disheartened, mate. If it can happen to the best people and you can learn from your experience and I think it's more motivation and you are a person who really likes to respond to adversity. And you're both the same. When things don't go well, you don't throw the towel in you, you work harder. And you know, since, since that recovery period, you've actually done that so well. And I think, you know, anybody else would have not done that run. They would have just packed that in. And, and you deserve a lot of kudos for sticking out there. And you know, you, you were telling me, and I was so blown away by the support you had for people just saying, you know, freaking, well done, mate. Keep going. Gutsy effort. You know, that, that would have taken a lot of guts for you to do that. And that was, that was the impressive part. Even though it was detrimental to everything, it caused more fatigue. You had to recover longer because of it. But I still think, I still think you did a really good thing for your own mental capacity knowing that you can still finish this thing and that that respects the event, and I love that.

Is that how you feel, Roland? You know, because you would have a. I don't want to keep digging the knife in, but, you know, you're, you're essentially an hour off your pace and you're walking the marathon, which is never fun, and you're having a lot negative thoughts. But is that how you feel about it now? You're glad you saw it through?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I'm always sort of had this motto sort of in my mind like it's something I always said to myself was that you should always sort of finish what you start. Even if you know you're, you're really struggling and even if, you know, if you got to do it at 20% of the effort level that you thought you were going to, you know, try and do it at the start, you just giving up shouldn't really be an option. Or you know, unless you, you've got some, you know, extraordinary reason like you're injured or your bike's broken or something else like that. I mean at the end of the day if you can finish and it's, there's no obvious reason why you shouldn't and I think it's as, as Jared said, you know, it's, it does more for I guess your, I guess your own psyche to know that you know, you can push yourself through those really hard adversities to know that you can dig deep into those times and notice something that I've done this before now I know that I can pull from those really hard times and I can get through this. And so it's, it's quite a reassuring thing to know that you can go and do that and have that in your reserve. So yeah, no, certainly happy.

That's brilliant. And I'm sure a lot of people want to know what's, what's stoked the fire now, what's next for you? And we'll get into the mindset since then but we're going to turn to tomorrow and just take it back a week and go Tom, you've just ran in training in a time trial, a half marathon where it wasn't, it wasn't even an all out half marathon although probably felt like that at the end. But it's a classic case of we, we just like to do these in training where you progressively get quicker and just practice that, that execution of negative splitting. And we do these very commonly. And you've ran a one 1331 last week. Congratulations on that. That is a monster, monster run. Roland's kind of shaking his head at how good that is.

Yeah, that'.

It's, yeah. 329 pace for, for the half marathon. Just the fact it's time trial for me is, is kind of the most exciting part about that. And what is that Tom? A two minute pb?

Yeah, I think about, about a minute, a minute and a bit maybe. I think I ran a similar time last year. 114 something. 114 middle or high in a similar sort of time trial. Yeah.

So what do you think has contributed to this run improvement?

Yeah, I think my run has been something that, as Jared's, you know, helped remind me over time is just steadily improved without having to do anything too fancy or out of the ordinary as, as well structured and, you know, specific and tailored as the program is at times. It's also just getting the fundamentals right over a long, you know, consistent period of time, I think, which is evidently very cliche and almost too much of a buzzword that no one listens to it. But I think just that consistency over a long period of time in this last sort of three or four years working with Trivelo and recently Nick and now Jared for the last few years has really been what's held me in good stead. Consistently trying to get an endurance running essentially every week for the last three, four years and having that gradually build up over time to the point where now since Port Mac, without doing canned, I was sort of just bunkering down for a bit of winter training down there in Victoria and looking to build my endurance and, and get some real good base mileage in. And Jared sort of gradually just extended that endurance run for me on, on the weekends. You know, in the past an endurance run was probably 80 minutes, 90 minutes for me. And then maybe last year it was sort of creeping more 90 minutes to an hour 40 or so. And then over the last sort of eight weeks we just built that up to 222 hours 30 a couple of times. But in that sort of 2 hour 10 to 2 hour 30 range for probably done touching on 8 or 8 or 10 runs around that solid duration for my endurance right now. And I think without changing any of the, you know, intensity or anything during the week too much at all, just building that endurance run certainly gave me, yeah, confidence that I was just not necessarily going to be able to run breakneck speed, but just be really strong and resilient at that, at that solid pace. And that was definitely something that I felt just doing, doing the time trial. I was just really confident that I was going to be able to keep progressing the pace as long as I kept on top of, you know, not going out too hard too early and, and looking to just build the effort gradually throughout.

A lot of people would say that 329 is, is blistering speed. 329 pace and a last 10k of 324 pace, last 5k of 322, 1649 last 5k. That's, that's bloody impressive. But I just, Dad, I want to throw to you in a second, but I just want to read out in terms of that consistency. We've got every single time trial half marathon you've done in the last three years. And this just paints the picture perfectly. And it's 1201-181161-17117, 116, 116, 117, 114. That was your PB. 114, 20, 117, 113. So that just paints that perfect progression of just kind of hovering, slight improvement. Hovering slight improvement. And it's the exact picture you get when you, when you bank that consistency. So dad, your thoughts on the buzzword, and we don't want to harp on about it, but just the running in.

General, the accumulation that Tom spoke about so accurately is, don't forget, everybody listening. This is a three to four year period of accumulation of running. And so you've heard us talk about fitness in the bank and that doesn't come with one deposit, that comes with three years or four years worth of deposits of the long endurance run. And it was brilliantly described that, you know, the Tom has not been able to run 2 hours, 2 hours 23 years ago we had to gradually build him from, from an 80 minute runner. Now he can run, you know, still hard work obviously, but now you can get through 2 hours 10, 2 hours 22 hours 30. And they're all, some of the runs are undulating, some of them are quite, you know, then none of them are hard. They're endurance hard, they're fatiguing hard, but they're not intensity hard. But that accumulation, depositing that fitness in the bank. For anybody out there listening, there is no fast track method. You have to do the work over a period of time. As a runner, as a bike rider, you can actually do way more intensity and endurance without getting the same fatigue. The problem with running is it's that training load on the body. The skeletal muscle, muscular system is not coping with you landing, you know, on the ground, on the concrete, so, so hard. Whereas as a bike rider you're not getting that impact. And so, so you can't fast track running like you can riding. So I think, you know, I was talking to Matt Phillips the other day about his running and the same theory is he's really, really on board with the program. I know this is going to take time. I'm going to be a better runner and he already is a better runner since he started. And, and if you can just trust the process and not Think I want the shortcut to be a faster runner because the consequence is you may break down and be injured and then you are losing the key thing about running improvement, which is consistency. So the minute you're injured, you lose your consistency. So you don't end up being a faster runner anyway because you spent six weeks on the sideline injured. So we want to do this slow build and it is frustrating because we are in the now people, aren't we? We want to improve right now. We want to see our results happen as soon as possible and on the bike we can really push that. But as a runner we just have to do the time. And I think, you know, three years and having that fitness build over that period is the. Is actually what's happening now. And as you said, you know, you're knocking off more time each time you do one of these sessions and we're not really running any faster in any of the training sessions. We're running quite similar. So it's just that long endurance, right. It's becoming a. Allowing you to be a more robust athlete, I think.

And Tom, the, the listener will be super keen to know some key, some key data points from those long runs. What sort of undulation are you aiming for? Elevation gain? What sort of pace is that for you on those long runs?

Yeah, I was.

Thank.

Good.

Glad you asked, Jody. I was going to say I think a key point from those endurance runs and I know logistically for a lot of people it's not always possible. I'm just pretty lucky. I've got a really good. What most people would think is an incredibly boring route, but one in which I can get quite a good density of elevation doing a couple of. Couple of out and backs of this final ist. Hey, out and back sort of section close to home. So yeah, I guess I'm running anywhere between 28 and 32, 33Ks in that 2 hours 102 hours 30 ish without any intention of running fast. I think having the some long up and down climbs tends to just take that average pace ends up for me usually somewhere between the 4 mid 4 30s and mid 4 40s. I always go out with the intention of running as easy as possible and just trying to go through the terrain. But the league sort of always warm up and just keeping the effort nice and steady. The pace always seems to come down a little bit towards the end, regardless of how, how much I've done the day before and sort of always try and take it easy with no sort of plan to push the effort at all but I think having some long rolling hills up and down, the pace naturally just sort of sits around that mid-430s to 4:40 sort of mark by the time I get home usually. And that's yeah, between 600 and 800, 820, 850 meters of climbing, depending how long the run is. So, yeah, getting it. Getting a good, good chunk of chunk of hills up and down this, you know, a few longer sort of climbs between 1 to 2 K's in there and then some sort of short, quite punchy, steep ramps on some of the paths around it as well. And it's, I think, something that's not ideal, but I think that has also over time helped and could definitely not recommend this jumping straight into this. But I've run a very similar route for the last few years, so I'm conditioned to it now. I think it's essentially all on Haven, like concrete. And if I had a, you know, off road, soft track close by, I would definitely do this run on a trail or somewhere that was on a soft surface. But I think the resilience in the legs that I've sort of developed from running those downhills in particular on concrete over time and just gradually building up the duration and amount of elevation that I can get into a single run as definitely, yeah, helps helps me adapt and be strong in the back end of, of races and time trials and yeah, something that I'm, you know, Jared's been banging on about for many a year, but I'm becoming a true believer and it sort of amazes me. I think it's a really untapped part of training and you know, way that you can make that long run a bit more specific to try on in that, you know, whatever triathlon you're doing, you know, I guess even from like Olympic up to Iron Man. So whatever pace that person's going to run, it's not a fast pace for that person to run, relatively speaking. So, you know, my half ironman off the bike pace is not a super fast pace for me to run, but it's just being able to do it under fatigue and maintain the strength in the leg. So I think that long healing endurance run has been a key facet to develop that over the last couple of years. And in particular something I focused on.

In this block, 600 to 800 meters elevation is monster numbers and yeah, highly recommend people don't jump to that. And we know a lot of people who would jump to 200 to 300 plus meters elevation and get injured straight away if they did that too quickly. So you really built up to that level. And that is. That is really on the upper echelon of numbers. You're not seeing that very often. Brolin, you. You laughed when you. When you mentioned the course. Have you been able to frequent that course yourself?

I know the exact course because I see it every Sunday on Strava. This is the same out of pack and I was gonna. Tom is just got this innate ability that I think he is just such a driven person that he can stay motivated and focused and able to push himself, really, despite how monotonous the training might be. And so you can go out every Sunday on the same track and just breeds himself. And it's. It's quite a valuable trade. I don't know how he does it. I was going to ask, but I would like to know what he thinks he's either look forward to every Sunday. He's like, I can't wait to get back to that hill.

I usually just have the archive of the Get Fast podcast in my ears.

So that.

That's a great answer.

I. I just want to jump in and look. The thing about the courses you select, and a lot of the age groupers are really kind of coming back at me with, you know, that ride I'm doing, it's so boring. And I think I've discussed this with you, Roland and Tom and Jordy, and I obviously discuss this a lot. I don't even know what's happening in the scenery around me. I'm concentrating so much on what am I doing on the bike, what am I pedaling, what's the. What gears am I changing, what's. What's my average speed and my heart rate and my power and, you know, it's great to have some great, you know, views when you're riding, but a lot of the time you're not really concentrating on that and the run. I remember. I think you love this, Rollin. I think I ran the same run from home up through Sherbrooke Forest, around the same loop and back every Wednesday for over four years. I don't think I missed that run. And some weeks I run it slow. Some weeks I wanted to run fast, progressive fast to see if I could beat my pb. And other weeks it was just another version of it, but it had like 1200 meters of climbing in it. Jordan's run these same trails as well when he was a junior. And. And look, this is the epic place for a lot of the best runners in Australia to come to Sherbrooke. Forest in the Dandenongs. And, and you know, Fernie Creek is renowned for the place to run as a runner. And I was living. That's why we moved there to, to run these trails and, and to run on concrete is really good, Tom, but you've adapted to that. And, you know, you wouldn't want to do that straight away. You want to give yourself some soft surfaces to run on and give your legs not that pounding impact, but you're resilient to it now, which is. Which is brilliant. So everything we're saying here, please don't. The listener, don't take that as, oh, I need to copy what Tom's doing here. You can't do that. You will injure yourself straight away and you have to build up this. But repeating the same runs is, if you've got the mindset of I can actually measure how I feel every week on the same run. That's one of the big key factors for me doing the same session every week for four years was I had such perspective about how I felt at any given time in the year and the times would reflect that. And I did that with some writing sessions, which was from our place up to Emerald and back, where I'd do a time trial and it was. It was a 60 minute time trial. And some weeks I did 64, some weeks I did 54. And so that was a good comparison.

Well, last question on the. I'll go, Tom, go.

Sorry. I was just gonna say I absolutely love running in different places when I'm traveling or, you know, anywhere different. I absolutely love running in a new place, exploring, you know, in the wilderness somewhere else and every sort of week tempting fate and thinking, oh, I could do a nice, you know, 18k lap of the river and then do a few heels towards the end. But I think it just speaks to how much value I feel I get from that Chili run now that I'm just so unwilling to let go of the gains that I feel like I'm able to maintain with it, that I just won't go somewhere that I. If logistically speaking, sometimes I'm elsewhere and I'll just make do with whatever's close by, but I'm just unwilling to. To lose the. The, you know, potential consistency and value of that long, long Qiwi run.

It could be a bit of hill. You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know because he's never been.

That's true, that's true, that's true. But then it might, you know, I might not get the same Amount of elevation and it's just an endless cycle.

Yeah, that answers your question Roland, on how. What's his motivation? He's unwilling to let go of that 700 meter elevation run.

Yeah, I'm too scared to. I'm too scared to.

Last question I had on that run was where does your heart rate sit about because you know 430 to 445 average pace is still moving in those hills because normalized that ends up at a, at a 4:10, 4:15 kind of average which is expected at your boys level for zone two running you probably expected to sit somewhere between 4 and 4:30 for zone two. So where is your heart rate up?

Yeah. And the. I can't observe enough like I really don't focus on the pace at all. Like I just have my screen on my heart rate. Check my elevation every now and then just to, to sort of keep track of that. It just ends up being. I'm certainly not running with any intention of running fast but I think the terrain just end naturally ends up being that in, in that range which is always surprising. My heart rate probably sits again depends week to week. And as I guess Jared alluded to when you do a similar sort of route and a similar sort of session it's. You get quite a good amount of feedback for how things are going. So some weeks my heart rate might, I feel like they're a bit suppressed.

Or a bit fatigued or the other.

Way if I feel like I'm a bit, you know, maybe getting a bit cold or something. Sometimes it can spike up a bit but it'll be anywhere between 135 and 150 beats usually throughout the run averaging probably in the low 140s most of the time. Sometimes that'll creep up closer to 150 average that I'd say most of the time it's probably in the low Low to mid-140s the average heart rate. And again it'll naturally go into the 150s going up a field. It's a steeper one up to around 160 maybe. But I do try and keep a lid on as much as I can. Just let the terrain dictate a bit of natural varied intensity and then it'll come down into sort of the 130s high 120s potentially on some of the longer downhills as well. So yeah, looking to just let the terrain dictate a bit of natural variation.

It's, it's great to hear that you're checking the elevation on the run that you do at the same every week. And it would be interesting to see if you get dramatic changes in the elevation on the same run that you've been doing for week in, week out. That's quite an hilarious.

Sometimes I feel like the Garmin has sold me short and I've been filthy about it.

Don't get me.

Because I know what it should be. I know what it should be at each sort of crest. And if I'm, if I'm a couple of meters short, I know the pressure gauge.

Adjust elevation. You can adjust the elevation rate and just change it. Yeah.

With the Strava one.

Yeah.

I think with the same course, you need to let that go, Tom. It is, it is a metric that you can be trusting. So don't get me started.

Look, it is on garden elevation. It gets cries like ears. Keep going.

Hopeless.

No, no, but it is important for the age grouper who is doing these long runs. And, and sometimes we would say don't run above 75% of your max heart rate and look for the pro runners. That's probably why that, that sentence is in some of our running sessions, so that you know, you don't end up running your long runs too fast. And if for an age grouper that's not necessarily true. If we said don't run above 75%, you would be having to walk up most hills for an age grouper. And so we don't want them to do that. We would rather them train to feel. And if the heart rate spikes, then each week as you do this session over six months, 12 months, two years, the same. If you're doing the same session like Tom's doing, you'll see your heart rate cope better with a faster pace. And so if you just, if you just walked up the hills to keep your heart rate down, you actually, it's a detrimental thing to do for those long runs. You need to be allowing your body to float with the feel rather than the other way around.

Final questions that we want to finish off with for both of you. Yeah, we've had a fair few fans writing and just say loving the episodes and just want to hear more about this, this keyword and I really want to get an insight into your thoughts around it. And that's, that's balance. How are you guys balancing trying to compete with the pros? And let's face it, you know, most of the time in races the top 10 are full time pros. They're not working full time jobs. And so balancing your work hours, your Training hours, extra sessions, like strength sessions, getting enough rest in and, you know, moving your life as well and having time for partners, friends, social life. Roland, what's. What's your thoughts around balance and how do you manage personally trying to get it right?

Yeah, I've always. I mean, people ask me this at work as well, and I think it always comes down to a triangle where you've got free. You got two choices of free, where it's like you can have work life or social life and then like fitness or a hobby. And you can choose two of those three pretty much. And so I've chosen work and fitness pretty much. And it seems to be pretty common that it is very, very difficult in balancing any of those, you know, things. And I think Tom and I, obviously we're in both very similar circumstances. One in that we obviously are in the same career path, I mean, both doing triathlon, but also in that we've got two very supportive partners who are very understanding of what we're doing and give us a lot of time to go and do that. So I think that's one of the first things that I think a lot of people probably maybe sometimes don't always have the opportunity to do if they've got kids in a family. That's an incredible commitment and it's something that, you know, we don't have to deal with. So that. That immediately gives a lot of. A lot more time to. In the day if you go and get some training done. But essentially a lot of the day is either getting up to go and train, eat and then go to work and then come back, train and then go to sleep. Honestly, that's pretty much all I do. It's. It's pretty boring. I think most people, it just wouldn't be for them. But I'm just fortunate that I just, you know, I love the training. It's just something that I really enjoyed to do. And so, yeah, that essentially, I think in finding balance in between the work, it's something I was actually going to ask Jared about in that it must be difficult, especially when you've got, I think, two people who are doing the same career path, but there are different sort of rotations in that sometimes I'm doing the emergency department work and Tom might be doing more medical work or working in a surgical term, deciding when to split the sessions up and, you know, differ the time variance between those two. It'd be an interesting insight to hear from Jared about how he goes about managing that, because that's one of the biggest Things that I think does really help me is that having you guys there to plan out my week so that I don't really have to think about when I'm going to do sessions. I can just look and say well yeah, that's when I'm going to go and do it.

Well I think if you want me to jump in and answer that now, I think it's a no brainer when you work those ridiculous shifts that are three tools. What is it midnight? There's so many variations, isn't there? Taunton Roland, you've got, and it really, you know, when you do those midday, 7:30 till 3 or, or 8 till 6, they're really quite easy just to have a session in the morning and the session in the afternoon. But when you've got those, those late night finishes and sometimes 2am You've really got to be respectful the next day. And you know, I'm, I'm just trying to make sure that those endurance days, days where you are got the most time available. Obviously we're not trying to fit in the long hard stuff. The long hard stuff where we do that once a week where we're trying to do some intensity in those long endurance days that you've got enough recovery from sleep and from work and, and you know, the, the high intensity training sessions with the run and the ride and the swimming, you know, if you've got the right gap between work and the training session then you're going to get a better opportunity to recover even though you're stressed from work. It's more mental than physical but you are standing a lot when you're going from patient to patient so there is a toll there. But, but Roland's kind of a year ahead of Tom so his body's actually been able to cope with that, with that style and it's helped me coach Tom, I think by having to coach you first Roland, through this last year and getting you to understand, you know, to getting me to understand how fatiguing it is for you when you do those long shifts in the middle of the night. So, so it's really respecting the fact that you're not getting proper sleep at nighttime. That's, that's, that plays a big part in my thought process when I'm deciding what should happen. And some days you'll get a standard week's training where I'm saying okay, you should try and fit this in with no matter what's happening with your work, you should try and fit this in. And then if I hear feedback from either of you too, that you're struggling, then I'll immediately change the next day or two. So that's kind of what the thought processes I'm going through is a try to get the best program and then if it doesn't fit, we try to have some days where we decide just to do some Zone 2 stuff rather than some intensity. So it's really as simple as that.

So, Tom, I'm really curious, do you have anything different in terms of how you think about balance and the second part of the question is what really drives you and motivates you to keep up a pretty tough routine like this?

Yeah, I think to the first part of the question. I've previously really liked routine through school, when I was rowing and through university, had a fairly regular schedule and I feel like I really thrived in that regularity and routine. I could sort of be quite organized and fit all the things into my life that I wanted to because I could structure it in a way to do so. So that has been certainly a big shift for me this year, starting, you know, more shift swapping different times, day to day, week to week, having quite a variable schedule and yeah, something I've sort of developed a lot more respect to the way Roland's been able to manage the last couple of years doing the same because it's significantly different, I think. And I've had to really lean into, I guess, the ebbs and flows of the week when you do and don't have time or might not might be within a fortnight if you're more a week on, week off schedule and I guess just roll with the punches a bit. I get. That's something I sort of asked Roland about towards the end of last year, ahead of starting. Starting my year working, knowing that he'd been through quite a similar thing. And he sort of said, you know, you just sort of do what you can when you can and if you can't, sometimes that's all right and you just make. Make the best of it. And that's something I've tried to do. As Roland said, I think we're both incredibly, yeah, lucky to have very supportive partners in Soap and Charles, who you know as. As difficult as it is at times as well for them. And I really do appreciate the. The toll that our busy schedule can have on. On those that are close to us as well, but they're very supportive to try and make sure we can do the things that we love and that bring us a lot of purpose and joy and satisfaction. So we're Speaking, I speak for Roland as well, and I say we're both very grateful for that. And I'm sure we're not the only ones who have very supportive loved ones that, you know, allow them to continue doing the pursuits that they, you know, and follow their ambitions and dreams and. And we're very lucky to be in a position to do so. But I think the thing that's changed for me this year, I guess, in short, Jordan is being able to be okay with stacking some days more than others, having some quite, you know, significantly reduced load days, and then being understanding that it's just the way it is, and that the next day I might end up doing two or three solid sessions because I've only been able to do one shortest one or a couple of times. I've sort of, you know, spoken with Jared, and if I've had a long shift, starting early, finishing late, I'll just have the day off and bump a session to the next day and just have confidence that I'm still getting the consistent work in overtime and trying to not become too unbalanced day to day, because I think that's where I would become unstuck is if I was really burning the candle on both ends for too long, trying to squeeze too much into a day and just trying to use the time when it is available a little bit more and trying to fit the other, you know, things around work and training as well. For example, I worked last night and finished late, slept in this morning. Soph was working this afternoon, so I had the morning with her, and then just got all my training done this afternoon. And in that way, I felt I was able to sort of, you know, meet all those requirements, even though it might not have been the most perfectly planned out, you know, time for recovery and training and everything. I think just adapting with the flow of the work schedule and other things that are happening, you know, within my office as I enabled me to keep things ticking along. Whilst it has been busy and difficult at times, it's. It's manageable for the moment.

I love that Anson and Rowan, I love that you. You talked about. Just love training. And it's such an important part, is you just. Yeah, you do have to love the process, otherwise you won't last long and you'll probably burn out. But it is a hectic schedule and. And you guys are in a tough position because I've mentioned it so many times already this episode. But, yeah, trying to compete with pros who don't necessarily have to work full time and you do is a disadvantage. But the goal is, and I won't assume this, I want to ask you now, the goal is hopefully you could, you know, as you progress through the ranks, potentially be able to train more and work less. And, and how that work looks with work is a whole different topic about, you know, whether some people's work allows that some people don't. But Ron, I'll pass you. You know, how sustainable does this feel for you? And, and is that the goal to keep working towards, you know, potentially a, a career as a triathlete and, and maybe backing off your, your medical career for a few years if, if it pans out that way? What does it feel like to you?

Yeah, well, it's something I have been toying with the idea of. I guess we're quite lucky in the, a medical career in that you. It's quite a stable profession in that it's one that's probably usually always in demand throughout Australia. So, yeah, it's something that's quite fortunate in that respect. And you also do have the ability most of the time to tailor your hours. And by that I mean that you can choose to work unless you're out throughout a week. They call 0.5. So like half time or 0.8, meaning you might only work, you know, three, three or four days a week, which ends up being, you know, a fairly good amount of time that you've got off at the moment. The, the shift work that I'm doing means that I'm only working four or four days out of seven in a week, but they're just more stacked days in that there'll be 10, 10 to 11 hour shifts which, yeah, do end up taking it out of you a little bit more. I think it, it's a bit of a scary dilemma deciding whether or not to, I guess, fully commit to that professional sport. And one that I think, you know, it's quite handy having Jared is, you know, a coach who's been through that sort of predicament to, to sort of guide us as well because on one hand, as I said, it's quite a stable career you've got in medicine and but the thing is, it's very, very competitive and it's almost a professional sport in itself that if you want to go and do a specialty or you want to get really anywhere, you do honestly have to really fully commit to it and it takes a lot of work and a lot of time. And so on the other hand, if you want to be, I guess, you know, pushing the upper ECHELON of any sort of professional sport nowadays in triathlon as well, if you want to be, you know, featuring at the top end of races, you do, as you say, probably have to be, you know, maximizing everything that you're doing in terms of your recovery, spacing your sessions out. And so it's getting to the point where you. It's probably quite difficult to do both to, you know, the upper uri, which is something that I'm thinking about. Probably can't decide right now.

But yeah, the beauty is you're six months into your first year. You're both still very young, so you've got time on your side for sure, and so you don't have to rush into any decisions. And even I know that taking the leap into this pro year was a big step. And so it's just one thing at a time. But I'm sure the listeners were curious about what the goals are and everyone's enjoying following along the journey. So, final questions to finish off. What's the next race for you both? So, Tom, what's next for you? What's the next race and what's the goal for that race?

Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to what's kind of a regular racing calendar for me the last few years up at Roland's hometown, hopefully knock off the hometown hero at Sunshine Coast 70.3, which we both race together the last few years, which has been a great experience and he's very kindly hosted me. It is very conveniently placed house in Lulibar there. So very lucky to have a. Have a good base and, and some. Some close friends that we can make an enjoyable weekend out of it with. And yeah, really, really keen for a good hit out after what will by then have been a solid winter block, hopefully.

How you feeling for it? You know, we're still eight weeks away or so, but. Yeah. How you feeling?

Yeah, yeah, I'm. I'm feeling quite, quite good, actually. Obviously not, you know, into sort of race mode mentally yet, which has been quite nice. Jared and I had a discussion actually about a duathlon that I was going to do a couple of weeks ago down in Victoria. Logistically and just in terms of my motivation and a few things like that, just decided that I've just been enjoying the training process at the moment and as valuable as racing is, and I know that's another topic in itself that you guys have spoken about at length before, but I've just enjoyed this block of being able to focus on my training, getting the work done without any Sort of additional stresses. So I'm still in that sort of zone at the moment, but I know it will come around very quickly. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing how much that endurance work that we've been speaking about is paid off by then. I'm gonna have a couple of weeks of my annual leave in between now and then. So I'll sort of finish off this winter block, have a couple of weeks to freshen up and then get into some of that race ready work towards August and September and yeah, hopefully be feeling nice and sharp and ready to execute a, you know, hopefully best race yet up in Sunny coast is what.

I'm hoping for and certainly not 700 meters of elevation in duathlon. So I reckon you made the right choice there to skip that one. Roland, is Sunshine coast next for you as well?

Yeah, you've got the same, same schedule as Tommy, I think. But yeah, I'll be doing Harvey Bay as well after that and then hopefully some Ironman redemption at the end of the year potentially. So that'll be good at Busselton, but I'll be at Sunny coast is the next one on the, on the mark for me. But getting a bit of bike racing in at the moment too up here on the sunny currents too, which is good. There's some club level racing going on, which I know Jordy said if you guys have done this race before. I did a race last weekend that you guys had done previously apparently, which was really fun but a good way just to get a bit of extra training in and you know, target those over under sort of efforts and just keeping it, you know, light hearted and fun. So yeah, lets me think that, you know, 1% of Tadpogacha want to go.

Out there and you know, I guess just quickly talk us through that decision to do some crit racing because huge value in it is it aligned with goals and dad and I have raced that together, which we haven't been able to race that many crit races together. We got a breakaway together which is just, you know, one of the best things you could ever experience I reckon is getting a breakaway with your dad on breakaways.

The stuff dreams, I think.

Oh yeah, it was, it was unbelievable. But yeah, dad, your thoughts?

You're lucky, Jordan, that you've got a dad you can get in a breakaway with.

I reckon.

I seriously, I believe it's, it's a. Yeah, it was, it's a memory for a lifetime to be honest. But yeah, dad, your thoughts on, on the application of crit style race to triathlon training and the value of, yeah.

Look for Tom and Roland, it's absolutely perfect. We want to have that unpredictable style of training and put yourself in one of the club races which are, you know, in terms of value they're brilliant. But in terms of importance, it's a C category race. You know, almost, almost the same as what a weekend's training day endurance with intensity is, but it's so much better. You'll ride so much faster with that number on your back. You'll, you'll put out more effort. So look, we try to replicate that for some of the guys in winter where we're getting said unpredictable bunch style of riding once a week or once a fortnight or once every three weeks, doesn't matter as long as you can get some of that unpredictable riding where you have to respond to different stimulus. When someone goes up the road and being a competitive athlete, you have to chase them, chase them down and then just, you know, try and work out what you're going to do next. So it's a tactical thing as well that you're trying to suss out and that's what you're going to experience in these pro races where there's, there's tactics. Do you know when that guy goes flying past you, rolling, he ends up winning the race? You know, is he the train to jump on? You know, and you've got to be able to understand whether my ability allows me to do that. And my ambition is always to follow. To follow, but we don't get those confused. You know, my ambition is that's the, that's my free ticket to the front of the race. But have I got the ability to do that? And, and so these types of crit races for what you two guys are trying to learn, this is absolutely fantastic if they're available to you and they're actually really good fun because you could do a really long warm up, could be an hour, hour and a half with a few little efforts. Do the race which is flat out, you know, balls to the wall sort of training for, you know, however long the effort is, the crit can be, you know, 50 minutes to an hour, 20, whatever it is, and then you recover a bit and then add another, you know, couple of hours to the end of your ride where you're riding in zone two and you end up with five or six hours with a high intensity effort. So I just think it's brilliant. It's, it's one of the things I did growing up. I rode a lot of Club bike races and I think it really helped me with that over under style riding as a professional trying to race other, other guys. So yes, my answer is go for it.

And Roland, how are you feeling? You've. You've dusted off the Ironman. Training feels good. Where are you at mentally with. With training and your mindset?

Yeah, no, I was quite keen to get back into it afterwards. I felt that I had actually absorbed that whole training block quite well after a bit of a week off and yeah, I've been feeling quite fit coming back into it and yeah, keen to lock back in, get hot on the heels of Tommy, not let him get away from me at Sunny coast too far. I know that the big man, as we've already discussed in Lake, is punching out some serious numbers, not only on the run but also on the bike. So I've got a bit of work to do to if I'm not going to let him get away from me.

So I find it ironic that you call him the big man. It's for those who don't know, Roland is the biggest man I've ever met. He's David and Goliath.

Oh, this is brilliant. And this is a showdown that, yeah, I think everyone can't wait for. Getting a lot of this backstory as well. And you guys have had some super tight races we've spoken about the last couple of years and yeah, now that everyone gets a bit more insight into your story and your background and your friendship, it just adds to it a little bit for, for this day. So it's, it's going to be great to lead into it.

So don't forget, George, we've got, we've got our secret weapon who's training up to beat knock these two guys off in Matt Phillips, who's a local of.

The area and, and yeah, he's getting very good very fast.

He is, he is. So if you go full time coaching, I think Jared is. He's ready for it.

Yes, exactly right. Yep. Yes.

They cut the athletic career back. He'll be fine.

Travelo coach Matt Phillips coming for, for the boys here. Boys, thank you so much for your time and giving up your busy schedules to fit a podcast in. The listeners very much appreciate it and it's just such great insight to you both. So thank you again for another episode. Yeah, we can't wait for the next.

One to come on.

Cheers, boys. That's it for this episode. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to know more from Tom and Roland, please send in your comments. Or questions about what you'd like to learn on a future episode, and we'll try and deliver you the information that you want. And other than that, we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you very much.