What No One Tells You About Being A Triathlete with Emma Jeffcoat

I feel like definitely the more we can educate people and change people's mindset around Fuel, that is probably the only way we can start reshaping the culture around it for athletes. Because I feel like some of the most damaging stuff is just in, I guess a byproduct of the people you're around in the sport of triathlon and people's attitudes.

This podcast is brought to you by Trivelo Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. I'm your host, Jordan Donnelly, and on my left is former Australian Ironman champion and head coach of Trivalo Coaching, Jared Donnelly. Emma Jeffcoat is one of Australia's top triathletes. She's been on the world scene for almost 10 years now with 13 professional wins and 26 podiums on the world stage, as well as representing Australia at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021, placing 26th and what she describes in this episode as a result that comes with many mixed emotions. We can't wait for you to hear what insights Emma provides here in this episode as we dive into the psychological work she's done and that every athlete needs to do around processing different, different results or disappointing results, managing back to back injuries and having your potential. A race or in Emma's case, Olympic hopes in jeopardy and much more so dad. Another great example of an athlete proving that to be successful. It's so much more about, so much more about than just the training, but more the person behind the training.

Yeah, it's lovely to speak to Emma and she's a fantastic human being the way she's had to deal with adversity and she's had incredible highs already in her triathlon career. Anybody who can represent their country at an Olympic games, that's got to be one of the pinnacles of your career. And she's done that already. She's had also a lot of adversity with some injury and, and you know, for every age group athlete out there, you have to understand that there will be highs and lows and the measure of the human being is how you cope with that. It's okay to be when you're going well, be happy and seeming like there's nothing going to stop you from continuing with your success. But all of a sudden when you're under pressure and things aren't going so well, that's where you really need to step up. And I think she's learned a lot about herself and I think that's really helpful to the age grouper out there who has some issues with whether it's injury, illness, family, work, training. You will have to navigate yourself around these things and not bury them in the sand and hopefully they'll just disappear and go away. You actually have to deal with them and you will be better for it. At the elite level, she's had to do exactly that and she's currently just coming out of another stress fracture. So we actually get a good insight as to how positive she is and how motivated she is to actually, you know, do better with, with her, with her not make the same mistakes possibly. And with her preparation for her next upcoming races and knowing that Paris is in 2024, she has aspirations to go back to another Olympic Games. So, so it is a great, a great interview and yeah, really, really pleased with some of the answers she gave, which is really a really good insight into how she's thinking.

Here is the episode with Emma Jeffcoat. We hope you enjoy it. So Emma, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for joining us. The the first question we love to ask is what training did you do today?

Oh, good question. I like this question because I'm currently rehabbing from an injury and I got to run today for my second run after eight weeks off running. So yeah, so it's a good question. I started the day with a 5K swim. My main set was 800 on 10 minutes, two four hundreds neg split on five minutes and four two hundreds on 230. And then yeah, that was the main set of the swim.

And then that is insane swimming. Oh my goodness.

I preface that with yeah. But I'm coming back from an injury so I've been doing a fair chunk of swimming back with my old swim coach from Manly Swim Club and they were just down here for the world Championship trials. So I was swimming with those guys. So yeah, in good company. But yeah, my swimming was my background so yeah, it's, it's not the same on the run so you won't be as, as impressed with that one. But yeah, followed that, followed that with Jim at the Victorian Institute of sports. So 90 minutes gym and yeah, as I said, building back. So back using both legs, incorporating a few more, yeah, I guess weight bearing exercises, you know, up to 120 kilos on the leg press with both legs which is a great kind of marker that we've been building each week. And then yeah, in the afternoon I did a 30 minute run on the Alt G as 2 minutes run, 1 minute walk at 80% body weight. So less impressive. But I think it was 5.5km total. And as I said, that's my second run in eight weeks and totally pain free. So that was very exciting.

It's a good starting point. Take us through what the plan is, the progression, because there's a lot of athletes out there who are injured and if a professional can show them that there is a slow progress method that works rather than resuming 30 minutes of running the minute you got the okay and you don't have any pain. So take us through how your rehab running program is going to look like.

Yeah, so I'm very fortunate that with the access at the Victorian Institute of Sport, we were able to rescan my leg last week through mri so we could see via MRI scan that the bone, there was no bone stress or no brain oedema and that there my body had clearly laid down a lot of new bone. So that was like all terrific signs that the healing process is underway. So I want to preface, I guess my return to run given it's quite early. I was diagnosed with a femoral stress fracture six weeks ago. So to be running six weeks on is pretty early. But we were able to have the scan to have that clarity. And yeah, so my return to run started with a alter G session on Friday as one minute run, one minute walk at 80% body weight for 30 minutes. And I guess the plan from here is a three to four week build on the altogether back to 90 to 95% body weight and hoping to get towards 40 minutes to 50 minutes of running on there before we transition to land. And then I'll kind of step it back again given I'll be back on land. But so back to doing the walk, running and rebuilding that again on land. But yeah, we're kind of, I guess the way we're working it is we're only changing one variable at a time. So say today I did two minutes running, one minute walking and then I'm only running like I'm running every second day so that my body has a chance to heal, I guess not heal but recover and not overload it in between. And yeah, so not looking, not changing too many variables at once. So then we kind of get an opportunity to like assess how I pulled up from the last run, you know, post. Exactly, post run. Then like that evening and even the next morning seeing how I pulled up, if there's been no change in symptoms, still no awareness in that left leg, then we progress the next run that following day and yeah, just change that one variable at a time so that we're not overloading. And we can kind of then have an indicator, like a good indicator as to what if we push it too far, what variable that was. Yeah, the whole thing. If you change too many things at once, you don't know what's. What went wrong. So that's. I guess the. That's the plan so far, but it's going well. And yeah, we'll. I'm. I am not the best, but I've learned through a few injuries now that you've just got to be patient. And bone stress just comes down to time and giving your body the time it needs.

And for those that don't know, the. The Ultra machine is just an awesome machine where it's kind of from the waist down, it just. It takes off some basically gravity. So like you said, you're running at 80% body weight. It's just a really good way to progress back into it. And there are a few around and they're not easily accessible all the time. But if it's a great rehab tool, if you can get yourself 2, 1, especially coming back from INJ, but you've been dealing with injury for maybe the last six months or so, I'd say. And it's kind of started in your foot as a stress fracture. Is that right? And now it's kind of. You came back a little bit and then you had a femur, this femur stress fracture. So can you talk us through kind of this journey and the frustrations around that?

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of frustration around it. Yeah. So I had a separate incident, like in February of 2022 where I had a stress fracture in my second metatarsal. And since I guess diagnosing and working back from that last year and kind of working back to running, we. I since got in touch with Mitch from the running company at Albert park, who I'm sure you guys have. I know you've spoken to him before, and Mitch was definitely. He was terrific in helping me kind of figure out why that stress fracture came up in my foot because we were a little bit blindsided as to how that one appeared. It literally just came up overnight for me, which in the past, when I've had bone stress injuries, it's not like that. You kind of get like niggly pain and it progresses and then you pick it up. So versus this one was a bit different. So for me, my feet, coming from a swimming background are shocking. And I never wore shoes as a kid growing up, so I've got just really hyper mobile feet and I've unfortunately got shocking. First met like bunions. So that's something I've got to work with. And I was actually just like constantly running in a shoe, like shoes that were a size too small. So yeah, I guess giving my feet now like the room to move. And I've been doing tons of work on that first metatarsal and like big toe exercises and feet exercises working to I guess that get the intrinsics working. And then I was just going and putting shoes on my feet that were too small. So I wasn't even allowing the foot to actually like have the proper mechanics and to be able to like toe off. So yeah, that was amazing in changing that. And since we made those changes, that's been like terrific for I guess like from the knee down in terms of my mechanics and how my foot's able to move in the run shoe. And yeah, unfortunately, this injury that I'm now dealing with kind of what, 15 months later, we kind of. We are I guess still figuring out how it kind of occurred. But when we kind of worked back to I guess the first onset of symptoms, it like presented in my left lower back as like a stiffness. And then I guess the comments that I made along the way was just like it felt like I couldn't drive through that left side in my glute. And I guess like weakness down that left leg was the best way I could kind of describe the sensation. And we like, to the best of our ability. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's a common theme too. It's all on that left side. And yeah, so we kind of diagnosed it as like left side disc injury. And that explained, I guess like the sensation down that left leg coming from a neural pathway. But yeah, I guess unfortunately what ended up being about six weeks later and kind of just a few. Yeah, misinformed kind of decisions. Basing it off the diagnosis of it being in the back until we eventually decided to scan it and we scanned the back of the back, came back clear and then scanned the femur and found the stressy. Yeah, just at the very like 3cm down from my neck of femur, so quite high. Which kind of again made sense why it was presenting in the left lower back and why there was I guess, issues through like the glute and like the drive through that glute and why there was kind of no sensation on the bike. You know, if it was down in the middle of my femoral shaft, then you'd get like the, I guess the flexing of the bone when you ride. But because it was quite up high, it I guess luckily was protected. So, yeah, we diagnosed that one at the start of May through mri. And yeah, was. We're still like, I guess working my loading at that point was not like I'd been running a, like a lot more KS in the past. So it's not like we were pushing the envelope with run Ks or on the bike. So we're kind of a little bit scratching our head in terms of how that one came up. And then I through again, through experience of having bone stress injuries in the past, we did a full bloods and my like, estrogen levels were terrific. So that wasn't a red kind of red flag. My iron levels were good, my nutrition was good. And for me, like, I, for the first time in that like leading like 18 months prior, had had a regular period. So all like the markers that you kind of look for in a bone stress injury where I guess good. So it does lead you to kind of look at maybe biomechanics and loading. So, yeah, that's, that's a process we're still working through as I rebuild.

Yeah, it's. It's such a hard one to manage when you. It's. It's the unknown and, and that's often what stress fractures are. And we did a great podcast a few months ago with two stress fracture experts and there is just variables to it that it is hard to narrow it down. And I really want to focus on the mental side of it with you because, yeah, like you said, to be dealing with the foot stress stuff from February 2022 and then to kind of come back and then this happen. You're a very optimistic and positive person, but this might must rattle you a little bit. And, and yeah, how do you, how do you manage that when it, when it kind of smacks you in the face a little bit?

Yeah, definitely. I, I certainly am quite an optimistic person and I'm generally always at finding the bright side. And I've always said like, you know, give yourself like a few days to just be shitty and cranky with the world. And then I kind of always find it's almost like you just draw a line in the sand. You've got to accept, like, what it is. And I've always found it really helpful to then I guess work with the people around me and start working on a plan. Well, start looking at how we got here. So like, the lessons to take away and what I can do better to avoid this happening next time. But also I guess working on a Plan. And I always found that really helpful to I guess have like goals, like little goals week to week. And I keep saying when people are like checking in, I'm like, I guess when you're coming back from an injury and doing a rehab, like because each week you almost get like a little bit more back and you get a little bit more, I guess, normality back to routine. So it kind of does feel like you're progressing week on week. And like I know if you were in full training and you looked at like what my last kind of six weeks have looked like, you'd think like it's nothing like, I guess like a full professional triathlete's training. But given I was on crutches and non weight bearing six weeks ago and six weeks on, I'm, you know, I think I rode 200k last week. I'm back to full swimming and normal swimming, you know, in the gym three times and got on an altogether running, like I'll take it. And it actually has felt like kind of steady, I guess steady wins along the way. But I feel like this. Yeah, progress, exactly. I feel like this injury particularly though was I guess almost like a. A really good reset for me. I'd been struggling mentally, I guess for probably about six months prior to this injury and just I guess questioning my, you know, off the back of, I guess personally a really tough two years after Tokyo in my personal life. But also, you know, that I'd had like, I mean, come off Tokyo and then got a stressy in my foot in February at the start of the season and then kind of that essentially hampered like the rest of the season and then, you know, rebuilt. Came back this year, was looking to kind of get back into World Series racing and trying to qualify and get myself I guess in within the ballpark to qualify for Paris. And then I get another bone stress injury. So this time round it definitely was like different in terms of the way I approach this injury and this rebuild to how I have previously. Because I didn't just do, I guess, what I've always done in terms of just like getting a plan and almost like going tunnel vision and really just dialing in on what I need to do and I guess going all in on the rehab. I actually for the first time gave myself a break and really enjoyed the process of just switching off from triathlon for four weeks. You know, I went back home, went to Noosa with my mom and then like went on another trip with some girlfriends and just really switched off from triathlon and I Have never done that. And whenever I've been injured, it's almost like you get the injury diagnosis and the next day I'm, I'm turning up, you know, early to the pool or gym, you know, to be able to do the little bit of rehab that I can, you know, and would never miss a water run session or, you know, whatever bit of exercise I could do in those periods of injury. But yeah, so this time was just different. And six weeks on, it definitely was the best thing I could have done for myself because I just, I almost took all the pressure off myself and just let me look after myself overall. And I feel like I just, yeah, took a breather for a second and really, I guess gave myself the time and space to look at what. Well, one, do I still want to do this sport? And it didn't take me long at all to realize I 100% still want to do this sport and I'm so invested in it. But I just had lost a little bit of that spark and I think had kind of ignored the fact that I had lost that spark and just was questioning why I wasn't motivated and, and kind of beating myself up because I wasn't feeling motivated rather than actually like cutting myself some slack and just taking a second to kind of go, okay, like that's okay, but like, what are we going to do to change that? And now we actually going to bring back that spark and that love for the sport that like, I know I still have. So, yeah, that's kind of, I guess, yeah. Brought me to a few changes in what my setup and like, where I'll be based moving forward. But for me as a person, it's really refreshing and I am just, yeah, gradually, I guess, figuring out what it's going to look like. I don't have all the answers, but yeah, like I said, by kind of just taking that pressure off myself and giving myself that time to figure it out, it's been a really enjoyable process rather than a punishing one.

I absolutely love that. And that is a really hard thing to do when it's your actual occupation. And you are a very driven and determined athlete. From the way you've described how you've gone about coming back from the previous injury. And so it takes a lot of courage to step back that far and say, okay, I can't do anything more than rest and let it recover and, and then actually get your health back. And I don't mean injury health, I mean your actual, well, being of who you are as a person. And not as a triathlete. And it's. Sometimes you need to step back and actually question yourself as to, you know, I'm actually getting a little bit too lopsided here. And we've always talked about this in our coaching ourselves is having the right balance. It's easy to talk about it, but, boy, it's difficult for the motivated athlete to balance is something that's so difficult to get right. And I just love hearing the way you've gone about this second injury because you've actually understood that. And this will be such a great mindset change for you, knowing that you can't do much about it when you are incapacitated to a point where you actually can't do anything and let yourself enjoy life for a period. And you get perspective, don't you, straight away about, hey, I really do love what I do and I am missing it and I can't wait to get back when I'm allowed to. And that brings the spark back straight away because once something's taken away from you, it is so much more obvious how much you actually miss it and that's what you want to do. And we also know that people will do better in life at things they love doing. And if at any stage you as a professional get tired and bored with what you're doing, you need to not do it because you won't do very well at it.

Yeah, I 100%, like, I couldn't agree more with what you. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with what you've just said in summarizing that. And that's kind of exactly what how I felt. You know, I honestly felt like when this injury occurred, it was like, I need him actually take a step back and look after me and just give myself some time and space. Because if I don't do that, I, I honestly think I was probably going to be out of the sport in like a short period versus just by, like, yeah, by acknowledging the fact that I just needed a break mentally and physically and giving myself that and giving myself some freedom, not punishing myself for needing a break. And yeah, as you said, like, enjoying the other things in life, like reconnecting with friends, reconnecting with family, and reconnecting with things that I love outside of triathlon, it gave me that perspective. As you said, to go, okay, no, I realize I'm very lucky and I still absolutely love this sport and I have so much more I want to give to it. But I also realized, like, there's way more to me than just triathlon So I think like, yeah, giving myself that period of balance was terrific and it just, yeah, allowed me, I guess, the clarity and the frame of mind to be able to make the decisions that I needed to make that were in my own best interest. So. And I do believe like those decisions in a period of like which, yeah, in a really crappy period, you know, the. I think they've almost going to be silver linings and I'll look back on it in hopefully many years to come while I'm still in this triathlon journey and, and be grateful for this period and the personal growth. And as you said, like, it's hard. It's really hard. I'm grateful that post Tokyo I had to do a lot of, a lot of work with like sports psych and the team around me to I guess work on myself and be like vulnerable enough to like ask hard questions and kind of like open cans of worms. So I'm grateful. I'd done a lot of that work prior. So then when I had this injury I kind of, yeah, had the, I guess self awareness that it was a little bit easier.

Yeah. Emma, this really is an amazing insight. I want to keep diving into it. We don't like getting stuck on one topic too long. But this is really such good insight into your perspective as an athlete. And you mentioned silver lining there. And I think Mitch made a comment about your progress once you change shoe size even in something that small. But he said that you'd mentioned that you've never felt so free running and that is such a positive thing to come out of an injury, I guess, and those things can happen. And I want to ask, you know, in terms of, you mentioned that personally you've been struggling with a few things over the last couple of years and when you're looking for a potential cause of a stress fracture and you're looking, you know, all your, all your blood test levels are normal. Physically, everything seems normal. You start looking biomechanically. But is there also a mental side where you go, maybe there was something there that could have potentially cause the injury? I mean that's such a big jump to make. But is that something you look at or think about?

I don't think it's a big jump to make at all. I think it's so spot on and so undervalued. Like I wish there was a tool that coaches could use to I guess like get a quantitative number on an athlete's like stresses outside of just physical and then be able to kind of collaborate that with like I don't know, training peaks, stress score or. And kind of get an overall number because I 100% think, for me, like, it's been different across, like, my, I guess, like, injuries, especially over the last kind of few years, when I've actually been like, a. I guess a more mature athlete and able to, like, kind of take ownership of the injuries and really, like, look into the reasons why and want it. Want to take ownership and want to be, like, kind of stop them from reoccurring and learning from them. So. And I think in each individual injury, like, the factors at play from, I guess that personal side and the stresses that were, I guess, at play have all been different, but they. Yeah, they've still been taking a massive load. And the way I see that load playing out, I feel is, for me personally, is I know for a fact when I'm stressed and overwhelmed, one, I instantly don't sleep very well. I don't fuel myself as effectively as I know I should. And two, three, I think probably the most importantly for me is I kind of lose the ability to actually pick up on my. What my body's telling me, so symptoms. So. And because I'm someone that has always done sport, and I can happily admit I use sport as, I guess, like a coping mechanism, and it's kind of what got me into the sport. And then I fell in love with it, so. Exactly. And I think a lot of, like, the more people I talk to, I think a lot of us, like, you tell a triathlete that can't go and exercise, they're mentally like, holy hell. Like, I don't know what to do with myself. Like, I know I had a conversation with a friend and I was like, even on a day off, you're like, oh, what to. What to do? Do I eat? Because I haven't really. Like, I don't deserve to go and have a nice pub lunch because I haven't done any exercise. Like, and I think, like, just that common sentiment resonates a lot with triathletes. Like, you know, and that's like, you know, when there's stresses going on in life, I feel like my ability to pick up what my body's telling me, given that, like, you know, there's a lot of, you know, say, like, I might pick up a sore shin or a sore foot or a sore hip. And it's not like I'm choosing to ignore it. It's just I literally don't feel it because there's that much, like, other head noise going on. That's taking my attention. And also I think subconsciously I don't want to lose the ability to exercise, which is a coping mechanism for the stress that's going on in my life. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's like one of the biggest takeaways I've learned. And I feel like over time, over previous injuries, I've learned that communicating and talking with the team people have around me and just telling them that there's stuff going on in my personal life and that I am dealing with a lot, then I let them alter the training and they know that that's going to have an impact, so they back off the training. And it's not left to me because again, as a triathlete, if I'm given the option, I'm always going to do the training and sometimes I need someone to make that choice for me.

Yeah, it's a great answer. And as a coach, we just so need the athlete to be keeping us informed as to what's going on in your world. And we don't want to be prying into your world, but we actually can't make good decisions if we don't know all the information. And what you've just touched on there is absolutely spot on. And just had an example just with one of our athletes before Cairns, and we had the same scenario a year ago come up where he didn't tell me a few things that were going on in his world and with a little bit of fatigue and, and not coping with the load coming into, was actually coming into Cairns as well. And the same thing happened kind of last week and he rang me straight away, learned the lesson from the previous year and said, oh, look, I just didn't train very well today and immediately we can adjust the program straight away to allow him to recover properly. And, you know, it went on, went on to go to Cairns two days ago, won his age group by 17 minutes, you know, got third overall in the 70.3. And they're examples of someone who's really learned a great lesson about understanding how their body's not coping and conveying that to the people who need to know. And it's brilliant that going forward you'll be really much better at this and you probably won't make those mistakes that you've made before because you've got such trust in the process and, and don't underestimate how important that is. And, you know, you're frustrated now because you've gone through these, these periods of roadblocks. That we call them almost. And you've learned so much more about yourself. You'd be better equipped now going forward. And so that's probably where we want to go. Jordan now is to talk about, you know, you've had these periods of really interrupted training where you can't get that continuity going and where you want to be as a triathlete and progressing. You're running and your riding, your swimming's always been super strong so it's not an area where you probably need to spend a lot of time on. But, but you know, I'm sure you want to be a better runner and a better, a better rider and, and now you can actually learn these lessons and, and, and be more consistent. So you know, where once you're back training properly, where do you see yourself thinking about the, the sort of program that you're trying to get towards? And you talked about Paris. You know, how, how does that look between now and Paris 2024? How is that looking with, with your mindset and how the program can get you to be as a qualified and get to that second Olympics?

Yeah, good question. Look, to be perfectly honest, the I've made it extremely difficult for myself to qualify for Paris purely just by the way the qualification goes and when it comes like I won't be able to race at the test event or world championships this year, physically won't be ready for it after this injury and for us there to selection races for Paris. That's not to say the automatic qualification will be taken in those races, but it is really disappointing to miss those like major benchmark events a year out from the games and not have the opportunity to I guess show what I'm capable of. So I guess just from a purely objective point of view I have made it really hard for myself but I guess from my new like perspective sitting on which is different from where I was six weeks ago, I think I also, it's not impossible and I know that if I just focus on me and focus on the like day to day rehab and rebuild and getting back to being healthy, happy and I think that's quite often under, like underestimated but yeah, happy and healthy then I know I'm going to be getting back the best out of myself in training and I know that once I'm fit and when I'm consistently training that I do have world class capabilities across swim, bike and run. It's just getting back to that point of view. Getting back to that point. Sorry, will I get back to that point? Too late for Paris Selection, who knows. But I feel like kind of, I quite like being the underdog and I quite like kind of of being a bit like underestimated and maybe like, I guess like yeah, yeah, yeah. And I kind of enjoy the challenge and it like it literally would be Mount Everest, but it's not impossible. And I am fully like, I am completely okay with being I guess open and vulnerable to say I would love to still try and qualify but I don't know how that's going to play out and that's actually okay because I, I know that like for me I still love this sport. I'm going to be around for, for a long time to come and for me as long as I'm getting back to being happy and healthy and trying to get the best out of myself, swim, bike, run, then that's all I can ask of myself. So will that be too late to get earn a spot on the team for Paris? Who knows? But yeah, I think like I touched on before, I'm not putting that pressure on myself to kind of be trying, trying to be back sooner than what is realistically possible because that, I know that that's just going to end up in I guess, yeah, potentially another injury if I don't I guess do the rebuild appropriately. But yeah, like I did, I. The plan is to be back overseas in Europe racing in towards late August and doing a lot of World cup racing the back end of this year. And yeah, who knows in terms of how the other Australians will go with selection. But yeah, for me the setup and how I'm going to be, I guess training swim, bike and run is also looking a bit different now post this injury and moving forward. So that's also exciting and I'm also in the process of still figuring out what that looks like. But again, yeah, it all kind of ties in pretty well and I feel like the big thing for me after a long period of kind of questioning whether I still wanted to do this board on my own, I guess like, like mental headspace is the fact that I'm creating an environment that, where the underpinning factors are that I'm happy and healthy. So I know that if I can create that and have those underlying then it'll set me up really well to get back to where I want to be in the sport which is yeah, racing the world's best and representing our country.

That's such a mature long term approach and mindset and I guess what you're really saying, and I've heard you kind of say this before, Is that that. Yes, the Olympics is the epitome of the sport and it is the top event. But, yeah, you're more happy with the process and getting yourself to a point where you can enjoy being a professional triathlete as your career and racing the world's best. And sure, yeah, if you can climb Mount Everest and make the Paris Olympics, it'll be an incredible feat. But I guess that outcome isn't what's going to define your identity or happiness. Is that correct?

Yeah, it's spot on. I feel like, personally, like, for me, and I'm not under. Like, I don't want to undersell it, like, the Olympics is a dream come true. It's awesome. Like, it's like a fairy tale land. It's. Yeah, it's hard. I still find it hard to sum up, but I feel like, for me, the massive takeaway was. I think it's almost like I thought I'd go to the Olympics and race and walk away and feel different and feel better about myself and. And I didn't. It was almost the opposite. And that was a real struggle because I went home and went back into, like, a lockdown, and I was not able to, like, society wasn't normal, so you weren't able to surround yourself with family and friends and be supported. It was very, like, it was just a weird time for everyone. And I feel like it was just tough because then you came back to everyone questioning, like, everyone's questions, being like, oh, was it just the best thing ever? Like, was it a dream come true? And it was like, I've said it to people since. It was really tough because I didn't want to let everyone else down and, like, I wanted to tell them what they wanted to hear. Like, yeah, it was awesome. But deep down, I was like. At that point, I was like, I'm still trying to make sense of this in my head because this was meant to be, like, a game changer. And I feel worse off the back of making, like, this childhood dream come true. So kind of then doing the. Yeah, like, doing the work with my sports, like, off the back of that has been awesome in kind of reshaping it and realizing why I wanted it to, like, make me feel better. And then, like, being able to. Yeah, as I said, reshape it and really appreciate what it did give me. And the fact that, for me personally, like, it's not the fact that. That I am now an Olympian, it's the fact that, like, me as Emma was able to get myself to an Olympics by Literally giving the best that I can across swim, bike and run. And I'm so proud of that. Not the fact that I'm able to have an Olympic rings tattoo on my arm. Like, it means a lot more than just ticking the box of going to Olympics, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's a. That's another great. A great answer. And. But let's be honest here. There's not a lot of people who can sit at a table and have a coffee and say, oh, yeah, I went to the Olympics. So down the track, you'll look back on this as one of the highlights of your career, and we can't underestimate what an amazing effort is for anybody to represent their country at the Olympics. So super proud of your efforts. Getting yourself there. The journey of getting yourself there was a tough one in itself, and sometimes that's the hardest part is getting to the Olympics. And don't be forget how much you've learned from that experience. And. And it was a different Olympics, wasn't it? Tokyo, there was no. No spectators, there's no family around you. You're in a little hub there with your other athletes. Just talk us through that experience.

Yeah, 100%. It was wild. It like the Australian Olympic Committee and Japan and the International Olympic Committee, they all did a terrific job in putting a Games together in covert. I know, like, all of us athletes were so appreciative just to be able to have an Olympics. Go ahead. Because I know how, like, I guess up in. Up in the air it was for so long. So to have a Games on in the midst of a pandemic was pretty incredible. And I know, like, the Australian Olympic Committee did an awesome job in trying to make the Games experience for us, like, as close as it could be to normal. So whilst we didn't have, I guess, family and friends able to travel, you know, like, my coach, Danielle came over, but she wasn't. We didn't have enough accreditation, so she stayed externally in a hotel and, you know, like, she couldn't even come out and watch the race. She watched it on, like, on TV in the hotel. So there were so many factors that were unfortunately a result of the pandemic. But at the end of the day, like, the experience that U.S. athletes had within the bubble of the village was awesome. You know, like, I remember going to lunch one day and sitting opposite, like, Federer and then like, Djokovic, like, came and tapped him on the shoulder kind of thing, and you just like, did that really happen? And just. Yeah, like, it's so Surreal. It's such like, as I said, like a fairy tale world. And I guess all the experiences that come with that, like I 100 would love and it's certainly a goal of mine to make it to another Olympics. And I would really, I would love to have an experience where I can share that with family and friends and go and watch other sports. They were probably the two things as a result of COVID that were, I guess most disappointing that we didn't get. But I mean, we still got to race and Olympic Games. And there's something definitely said for I guess that event in, especially in triathlon, like it has, it's not just another triathlon, it's the Olympics. And everyone, everyone knows that. And there's just a different vibe around it. And I know for us as well, like us girls, we had crazy conditions. You know, we'd been getting ready in the heat chamber back in Australia to get ready for like the heat and humidity that Tokyo had. You know, they predicted near 40 degree temps and the water was like sitting between 31 to 32 degrees. And then overnight before our race, we had a typhoon come through. So it ended up being like pouring rain, really strong winds, and all this heat work we'd done. We were all like shivering on the start line. I was like, oh, honestly. So, yeah, it was definitely a unique experience. But yeah, it's something that I can't wait to tell my kids about one day. And I am, I am very proud.

Of myself for sure. And I love one of the things you've said about you. You've blatantly said you came 26, which is again 26. The Olympics is just nothing to be ashamed of. But you said you were disappointed with the outcome, but you were really proud of the process and getting there and what you did. But it is just what seems like from the outside, such an overwhelming experience. And we spoke to Stre McSwain who had really high expectations for the Games as well. And he spoke about how he was disappointed in his results. Same thing, he came eighth in the final, which is just again, nothing to be in ashamed of whatsoever. But he just said, yeah, he had high expectations for himself and he felt like he spent too much energy kind of being overawed by the whole experience. And it's your first games and there's just so much to take in. And as you're trying to describe here, you can't even explain what it's like to be surrounded by the world's best athletes all in one hub having lunch. So was That a lesson you. You learned? And I guess what are the key takeaways you had to. That you would go for next time or even just other championship races in. In terms of how surreal that whole experience is.

Yeah, I definitely agree and like, would reiterate, like, comments, I guess that Stewie's made as well and that, like, whilst it is the Olympic Games, it is just another triathlon and. Or it's just another, like, track race. So, like, it's exactly what we've trained for. Just because it's the Olympics weeks, it's still swim, bike, run. You've still got to do two transitions and get from point A to B quickest. So, like, it's kind of, I guess, letting yourself like you. I don't definitely wouldn't want to underplay it, undersell it to myself because I didn't want to not soak up the experience of an Olympics. Like, I wanted to be on the start line going, holy crap, like, I'm about to race at the Olympic Games. Like, this is so cool, but also, like, bringing it back to go. It is so cool. But it's also like, what I've spent the last 10 years training for every day. Like, I know what to do. It's swim, bike, run. It's no different. Just because it's the Olympics doesn't mean, like, you don't just stick to normal, I guess, like, race, process, goals. And so that's definitely like a take home. And I feel like that kind of experience and lesson, I would just carry on to the next Games. Um, it's this whole same old saying, like, don't try anything new on race day. I guess, like, that kind of shines through too. Like, you do the work in training day in, day out so that you're ready on race day, whether it be, you know, your local race on a weekend or the Olympic Games. So that was definitely like, one key take home. And yeah, I guess maybe just like the experience if. Yeah, hopefully I represent Australia at another Olympics in the future. I definitely see myself in the sport long enough to do that. So I think having been to one Games, you kind of, I guess maybe you, like, I don't think you can take out the expectations because everyone wants to get the best out of themselves. But I feel like you kind of know what's coming so you can, I guess, prepare for it and you're not so overwhelmed because you've been there before and you know what to expect in terms of all the hype and the everyone else talking it up and you kind of, I guess just have that experience there to be able to calm yourself behind the scenes.

If you can say that as an Olympian and say that the Olympics, you know, the biggest race an athlete can do is just, is just another race that's so encouraging for our age group athletes to turn up to their a race, whether it's Cairns Ironman or something like that, and go yeah, I can, I can just try and see this as another race. And look, we've, you've spoken heaps about your mindset which is just such a great insight which we find so valuable. But we do want to know about the structure of some of your training and your tapers. So can you give us an example of in the weeks leading up. So maybe in that last race ready training phase, what was a typical week looking like for you? And that's a big question but can you give us an example of what were the sessions you were doing? Swim, bike and run. How are you really getting race ready for that Tokyo Games?

Yeah, so my Tokyo lead up we were in Melbourne so we'd done a block of racing a block of time training in Cairns to get some heat acquisition and then again due to Covid times kind of we're restricted in movement. So we came back to Melbourne from Cairns and spent the lead up before leaving for Tokyo here in Melbourne. So I guess if I run you through what it was the week I guess prior to taper looked like in that last training block lead up and then I guess some key examples of sessions. So for a Monday for me it was. Yes, wait it was Monday for me was an hour's easy run and then I would follow that, that would be in the morning. Then we had a 10 o' clock hard swim. So always 5km and about a 3k main set. So probably an example of like a main set then would have been we always. I call it the rip set because it's one of the like sometimes it's a session like session that you nail and it feels awesome and most of the time it gets the better of you but it's a, yeah it's a good sim session. So it was 450s max on a minute 20 into 400 race pace into four 1/ hundreds threshold on 123 times through and we would have like a minute reset in between rounds. But it's a 3K session and it's yeah really tough. There's definitely if you do, especially if you do the sprints as like all out to start each round makes the race Pace and the threshold work pretty tough. So yeah, hard swim and then I would follow that with. With gym. So 90 minutes of gym and I really enjoy gym and take it like quite seriously and so like do you know like deadlifts, back squats, hip thrusts and like heavy. So gym something that we've worked really hard on and targeted towards like that power and strength. Yeah. And so then I'd finish Monday with an hour of easy riding in the heat chamber. So again working on that heat heat acquisition Tuesday would be a generally like a easy two and a half to three or. Yeah, preface this with it was getting ready for the Olympics because yeah, I, yeah the Mondays was probably what I'd say a lighter day. But anyway, yeah, so Tuesday we'd probably do like a 2 1/2 to 3 hour ride in the morning 5k swim, like kind of pool paddles all aerobic and then anywhere from probably a 40 minute to an hour run. Wednesday was another probably big day. I do like down here in Melbourne we have North Road long so it's like a quite a well known bunch ride. It's about 100k and it's kind of like chopping turns and then there's like a bit of a hilly section at the end which is really tough with the guys that ride. And then you kind of regroup and then it's like yeah, you're chopping off turns all the way back to Melbourne for like I think it's about 40k back. So yeah, I definitely, I've never, I've only once made it all the way around North Road long with the bunch up through like the hills in two bays if you're from Melbourne. And that was literally in the last time I rode North Road long before Tokyo. So I've since gone back and done the ride and never stuck on. So that'll be a good indicator in future. Yeah, it's a good indicator for how fit I was on the bike prior. But yeah, so I do. It's about just under 3 hours and just over 100k of riding and a really hard ride and I would follow that with a hard swim again. So a 5k hard swim. Um, and again like that main session might be 30 ones on 120 aiming to hit race pace. So about like 113 the whole time consistently or another. I guess like main session that we do is six. Sorry four six hundreds as 200 threshold, 200 tempo, 200 threshold. And then we finish it off with four ones as like best average kind of thing. So they were Kind of like two sessions that come to mind straight away that we might have done on that Wednesday. And then yeah, I do gym at the Institute of Sport and then I would do an hour run in the afternoon. Thursday I did a ride like a ro. Like again aerobic, two hour two and a half hour ride in the morning we would then do a run session. So either like intervals on the flat. I have history of bone stress so I don't never really. I didn't do any track sessions in the lead up to Tokyo. I did all my running on soft surface, so grass track or like gravel surface. And like one session we a key session we did for people that know Melbourne is Wattle Park. So we would do. It's basically a great park where there' some like long hills, about like five minutes, kind of like five minute of work in terms of like working up some hilly sections. And then there's an oval at the top which is like a 400 meter lap. So we would kind of do five rounds through of running the hilly section at threshold and then you'd get to the, the oval at the top and we'd have to do two laps so 800 meters faster and we'd just then have like a few minutes rest and do that five times through. So that was like one key run session we did. Another run session we might do on a Thursday morning would be like 1k on 1k off. So 1k as above threshold, 1k just below threshold and trying to keep like I guess the paces as close as possible without blowing up. So yeah, they were two examples of run sessions I might have done. And then in the afternoon we'd do a 5K aerobic recovery swim. Fridays was our easy day. I'd do 2k swim, easy choice and gym. And then an hour in riding in the heat chamber in the afternoon. And then Saturday was, yeah, Saturday was a brick session. So we'd start like a bike run brick. So mostly on the velodrome on the bike doing like maybe an hour of work or like two like 30 minutes of riding work into maybe like two, four minutes running off the bike and then do that twice through or do like the whole bike session and then do like say four, four minutes running off the bike. And again like I wouldn't do that in race flats. I always just did that my trainers and kind of like uses good strength work I guess holding form under fatigue off a hard bike. And then we would do a sprints swim session in the afternoon. So typical session that we did in the lead up to Tokyo was we went to like a learn to swim pool where the temperature was just disgusting like 32 degrees. Makes you feel ill talking about it. And we would do, we do like nine fifties best average on 60 and then five one hundreds race pace and do that twice through. Yeah and then Sunday I would do anywhere from like 90 minutes to 2 hour long range on and that, that's the week. So it's yeah preface. Look, to be honest I have found that like I'm an athlete that handles volume pretty well. So it like for ks wise so those that wanted to know ks we were doing about 400ks on the bike, 80k of running and about 25, 26k in the pool then plus three gym sessions. Everyone's different. I am an athlete, I respond really well off volume. Um and we've found in the past like I've done some track racing running wise and I've been able to run pretty quick on the track like off no interval work. You know like I remember doing it where I ran a 907 for 3k on the track and I hadn't, that was in April. I hadn't done a single track session that whole year. We'd just been doing like the hills work at water park and aerobic running. So I'm someone that responds really well to volume and But I'm also someone that responds well to consistency and I think that's probably if I preface that, preface the training that led up to Tokyo I was in a really great place, I deserved my spot on that team and I was really really fit. But we've definitely had to learn the hard way that unfortunately the nature of triathlon you do push the envelope with the amount of training we do do and unfortunately by whilst I am someone that responds to volume I have also had stress injuries which are a result of I guess pushing that envelope too far and doing too much and not knowing at the time but finding out those I don't know classic four to five weeks later.

So have you in the past when you've been been going to some of your A races and we're not talking about the Olympics just here but just some examples about your preparation and you're obviously really training from. That example you've given us of the whole one week was you know, you really putting yourself under some really big load and someone who really enjoys that obviously. But looking back over your journey so far in your triathlon career, have you performed best? Have you worked out what really suits you to get your form and taper to perform at your best. How have you gone with managing that over the years? And looking back, what are the races that you've done well at and looked about at your, at your taper and the volume of work you were doing prior to that really successful event? Take us through that.

Yeah. So I think definitely for me what we've learned is the. Yeah, like I said, I'm not someone I don't respond well to mostly for the run or like a lot of intensity. I just break down. So for me, like it is quite a lot of just easy miles in the legs and time on my legs and I know from like I've always been historically like a naturally quite a strong, like I'm a strength based athlete and I think like my strength is my strength. So I definitely, I guess have that advantage in that I'm quite naturally, I guess, swim bike dominant and they are my strengths. But I have had to work really hard on the run and have had a fair share of injuries and we've definitely learned that that lack of consistency on the run does really affect me. And just from a pure, even from like a body composition perspective, I am like quite a solid athlete and I am more than comfortable with that. Like I said, my strength is my strength. But I guess when we lack that consistency in the run and do get periods of injury, then like I feel like there's a lot of other factors that do get like, I guess compromised and influenced. So definitely for me I've learned that like my best results have come off periods of like stability and consistency and kind of not like doing the little things right. So yeah, like I said, I remember like in 2021, in the lead up to like the Olympics that year, year I won nationals down in Devonport and was able to get a breakaway and rode solo in the swim in the bike and, and ran really well. I hadn't done a run session that year yet, but was able like was arguably in some of my best running form purely just based off the fitness I was getting from the swim and the bike intensity work and just clocking some easy K's in my run legs. So I feel like that's something that I've definitely taken away. Not saying that you, like, there's definitely a need for intensity work on the run for me. But yeah, I'm someone that I am mindful that I do get injured and have got that injury history. So I, I guess I'm not jumping it. Like I'm not kind of too eager to overload myself with intensity Because I think it can be detrimental and I feel like in triathlon being an endurance based sport you can get a lot of that I guess aerobic based fitness that I feel like people quite often undervalue how important that is from just doing like the easy miles and I think that whole saying of like doing your easy work easy like not overriding or over swimming or over running when it's meant to just be an aerobic session. So that's something I've definitely learned along the way as well. But yeah like I've also like, I also like I think it's worth noting too like, like previously before I moved to down to Melbourne into a different training environment I was like in a program where I was only running 40km a week because I'd had a bone stress injury and they said all right that's it like we're going to cap you at the year and you're only running 40k a week and you're running three times a week. And I went and won a World cup which came down to a run and a sprint finish and I don't think anyone, if you got were told that it was going to come down to the run no one would have put their money on me. But I again like I feel like I had such a good base of fitness from the like mileage and the way I respond in terms of like the swim and the bike and we know that, that I was able to I guess have that fitness behind me to and I guess like I back myself over a sprint too like being like the way the race played out was just one short burst. So I've also had performances off.

Off.

Yeah 30-40km of running a week. So I guess off the back of this injury what I, what it'll look like moving forward. I don't have all the answers right now but I honestly reckon I'll probably sit somewhere in the middle. So somewhere between that 40 to 80 range I go for 60. Yeah. So that's where running wise triathlon's so.

Interesting like that isn't it? Because you know. Yeah. To have that result is such a great I guess anecdotal piece of evidence about yeah. How well you can perform at the top of the world world stage. You know, you've literally won a world RTU race off that volume of running and I love in that example of a training week how creative your sessions are and, and the little differences and nuances of you know, running to the top of the hill and then doing two flat out laps you know, it really represents what can happen in a triathlon and I feel like those types of sessions are really specific for the type of racing you have to do at this level where it can come down to a sprint finish. And that was going to be my next question. It's like okay, now that you've had that experience where you were running your best at 40Ks, you did a high volume of running to Tokyo, running 80Ks, you might try and find somewhere in the middle I guess. Yeah. Moving forward, how do you, how do you see your total volume, swimming and biking as well combined and you mentioned before it's something you're still figuring out. But do you think you return to the same amount of as pre Tokyo volume but the runnings in the middle or are you going to shake up everything a little bit more and do the sessions kind of look the same over the next three to six months when you're trying to racing again in Europe?

Yeah, awesome question. So I am definitely going to shake it up a little bit. It just purely from an environment perspective. So I've recently made a move back to New South Wales to home. So that is Colorado, north of Sydney and I have made a move back to my old swim coach which I mentioned earlier. I've been doing like back in that program so luckily enough for me it's an awesome program. They've got like a good mix of surf life saving athletes, Nutrigrain, Ironman men and women and as well as open water and pool swimmers. So it's a. Yeah, it's awesome. You know there's 30 odd people turning up every morning and the slowest time cycle for the squad's 120 so like the standard is high and it's been really awesome to get back to an environment where like in that swim where you're surrounded by like world class, both open water I guess with surf life saving being so strong in Australia and that being my background. So getting back to swimming with people I grew up swimming with and like in an environment again of yeah like world class swimming, it's been really refreshing and like I said kind of that was the first thing for me when I got this injury and could only swim. That was a go to like I was like, I really just want to like take a chance to just get back to swimming and it's one of like, it's the one form of exercise I'll do for the rest of my life. I really love it. It's, it's like yeah, so getting back to that and that's something I'll continue doing back now that I'm back up in Sydney on the bike. I'm actually fortunate enough to have done some work in the past with Brad McGee, so I'm sure people have heard that name before. And he actually works at the New South Wales Institute of Sport in, I guess, coach development as well as cycling. So reconnecting with him after, like, having done work with him in the past, he kind of goes between the Southern Highlands in New South Wales and the Northern Beaches, working with the cyclists in the national park there. So looking to do some work again with him on the bike, which is really exciting. That's kind of as far as I've got with that side to things, but in terms of those two disciplines and mileage. So for me, I've gone back to only swimming five days a week. So I just swim Monday to Friday and any of those sessions are anywhere from 4 to 6k. So I guess you go smack in the middle. Averaging about 25k a week in the pool. And I find it really helpful to have two days off in a row of swimming. I really recovered well and I feel like I turn, turn up on a Monday and my body's ready to go again in the pool and then on the bike again. We're kind of at the minute, like I said, I rode 200k last week, so we're definitely building it back that mileage and return post injury. But I see myself riding similar volume to. As to pre Tokyo. So around that 400k mark for me, I only ride five or four or five times a week. So I do definitely enjoy having those two days off the bike generally being like Sunday being one of them, so that I can. Can get a long run in and really like, focus on getting the best, like recovering after that long run.

Um.

Cause I do see that as a key session for me, running wise. Uh, and yeah, I guess moving to the run, I'm still figuring that out in terms of what that'll look like and kind of experimenting with it. Like, it, like I said, it's kind of new for me, working with a swim coach again and a. Like a bike coach and I guess working out how a run coach and someone overseeing the overall program will, Will. Will work and what that'll look like. So that's. Yeah, it's exciting. It's unknown. It's a bit daunting as an athlete, like, and my personality, I like to kind of have a plan and know what the answers are, but I think it's Actually really good for me to have. I guess it kind of ties in with that whole thing of taking the pressure off and really like taking the time to figure out what's best for me and not jumping to any like jumping to any decisions too soon. And I mean, yeah, that's another silver lining to the fact I'm injured. You know, my return to runs being guided by the sports scientists and physio. So they're doing a really great job at building that back and kind of laying the foundations of what the OTG sessions and like the I guess when I get back on land what that'll look like day to day. So I guess that's going to be at least another probably six to six to eight weeks. So yeah, it affords me still some more time to start to continue asking questions and figuring out what that run and overall I guess piece is going to look like in terms of the overall triathlon loading.

It's a great summary of what the future is looking like. You would probably and we totally agree because a lot of the age group athletes that we coach, the running thing is the biggest bane and everybody's life as to trying to stay consistent because of the injury issues that we all have experienced over the journey. And staying consistent is the key. And you can still get that intensity from the swim and bike and get that fitness and aerobic and threshold and VO2 type of training into your cardiovascular system so that it'll enable you to actually run just as strong as if you had been training with some fast rep interval types types of training. But the key thing to remember is that as long as your body is structurally strong enough to run fast when it counts in a race, you've got the fitness to get you through as you said in those examples where you actually were leading into a race and could out sprint anybody and yet you hadn't done any form of interval training. And we totally agree with that philosophy and it's so good to hear you saying that because the injury issue prevents you from being consistent. And I can't wait to see how the running is going to pan out for you when you actually get a run of weeks months where you're able to run just that base type of running where the load is manageable on your legs and you might be able to do an occasional 5K park run or where you're getting tested over a short distance to see where your speed is. But that's about all you need, isn't it? And, and I, I think that's, that's where you're heading, would that be right?

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's probably why I'm hesitant to give you guys a number in terms of what that's going to look like running wise, like in terms of case, because I don't know. And I feel like that's my mindset, not wanting to give a number and I guess, like what that word we've mentioned before, like, not put an expectation on what I expect of myself because I think if I do that, then I'll just be unsatisfied and feel like I'm not doing enough week to week. When you look at how many Ks you've done and quite possibly that like what works for my body and works to keep me injury free and therefore consistent might be a lot less than what other people need. But everyone's different. And I remember someone saying, like, would you prefer to, you know, run fifth, like 52 weeks of a year, but run 40k each week, or would you prefer to run 80k or, you know, for eight weeks straight and then have to spend another eight weeks doing 0k because you've been injured? Like, you know, if you like map that out, it's the same amount of Ks on average each week. But I'd take the 40 Ks every week, week on week, then the, you know, period of no running at all. So I feel like, yeah, I definitely am open and it's exciting too. Like, I think it's worth like mentioning too. Like we're having, having conversations where we're looking at incorporating water running once a week as a session or elliptical once a week as an alternative to a run session and potentially like having that as my second work, like run workout or like for a while, maybe my only run workout. So like having I guess those tools up your sleeve as well that you can use and even like, like for people too. Like maybe they've got a bit of like a niggly something one week. So don't be afraid to actually just like acknowledge that and then like, it doesn't mean you can't run at all, but maybe like speak to your coach and that might look like substituting a run. Like you don't have to miss the run session completely. You can substitute it and get on an elliptical or water run and still get, I guess, those movement patterns and get your heart rate up. So that'd definitely be something that I would mention and something that I've become well versed in using.

That's really cool. I love that. Creative thinking and so true for athletes we don't have to just stick to the, you know, exactly what's in the program. You can kind of think outside of the box and come up with more solutions. Look, there's so many more topics we'd like to touch on, but we're probably running out of time. So I do want to ask you one last thing about nutrition because you've been vocal about your frustrations around public comments about body image and athlete body image. And, and one of the most telling things I've heard you say is how important it was for you to understand that fueling your body properly is a priority and not being afraid of fueling too much because of focus around potentially weight. And we see this pattern so much in age groupers where there's an unhealthy aversion to fueling properly because people want to be lighter and people are worried about body image. So can you just touch on. I mean, we could talk about this for half an hour, but could you just touch on your lesson around that and your advice to athletes out there about. About just how much fueling your body properly actually improves your performance. And it's so, so important compared to risking under fueling.

Yeah, 100. I told you I could talk for hours. But the key message I always come back to is fuel the work required. And that's something that I always, I guess, come back to in terms of my attitude now around fuel, because as I've been very vocal about, there was periods where I felt pressured to, I guess, get to a certain, like, weight or look a certain way as a triathlete, because that's what triathletes should look like. I say in quotation marks, like, triathletes can look like whatever you look like you. If you're swimming, biking and running your triathlete. So I feel like I've had to learn the hard way by getting injured or underperforming or feeling burnt out because I've been under fueling to try and like, fit a mold with which then once I did the work and actually understood, like, I guess the science behind it and what my body needs to perform, it was almost comical in what I was like, trying, like, trying to do. And it was having the opposite effect. So, yeah, I guess for me, like, key lessons I learned was initially, I remember like, that when they told me how many calories I needed to take in on a day, and it was about 4,000 calories. And I remember being so worried I would put on weight and I'd been trying to limit my calories to. To like 2,000 a day, which was ridiculously low. Like, stupid. And I remember my primary concern was about putting on weight. And I remember the dietitian going, what if I, like, can tell you that if you follow this, you won't put on a single, single kilo and you'll actually like, put on some lean muscle mass and start performing. And she kind of just like, like, I mean, I didn't really have an option because I had tried under fueling and it hadn't worked. So. So I just bought into the process and lo and behold, it was like, Trent. Like, it was insane to see how I actually doubled how much I was eating and became leaner and was able to back up for sessions, was able to like, re. Establish my relationship around fuel and the way I thought of fuel. So, like, that whole token of like I said earlier, like, you know, I used to think about eating as like a byproduct of exercise. So like, oh, I can eat because I've exercised and because I've earned the food. And that was just so toxic. Whereas now it's like, you think I think about fueling the work required. So, like, I'm thinking about what I'm eating before a session to like, get the best out of that session and then like, what I can eat after to recover and set myself up to then perform in the next session. Like I said, most days we're doing three to four sessions a day. So you need to be really proactive and yeah, it's going to help you. You not only recover but also get the best out of yourself. And I think, you know, as triathletes, we put in so many hours of work and it's just. Yeah, it's crazy to me how fueling ineffectively can almost just undermine all of that hard work and essentially lead you to be. Yeah. Injured or run down or scratching your head as to why you're not potentially performing come race day.

Just awesome. Just an awesome answer and great, great example for the athletes out there. Dad, did you want to say something or finish off with anything?

No, Look, I loved it as well. And it's good coming from someone at the elite level because the age groupers will only believe the people who are performing well at that level. And it's really good that you've been able to explain that so clearly. And you know, we talk about triathlon, swim, bike and run. It's not. It's swim, bike and run and fuel. And if you get that wrong, doesn't matter how fit you are you can't perform to your best and not only perform but in a training week, but recover to perform again. And if you're not feeling well during the session or after, you're not going to be able to front up for the next session because you're under fueling continuously and you may start getting run down, you may start getting sick. There's so many repercussions and on flow effects that, that occur because the fueling's inadequate. And once we get our heads around that, and Jordan and I were talking about this just prior to this podcast and I'm making the same mistake again. And I've been doing this for decades where I've forgotten how important it is to refuel. And like you, I'm coming back from injury and all of a sudden I'm doing a tiny little training session. And because I didn't pay attention to the fueling after the session, I'm so sore and tired. I'm sore and tired from doing a session that, that has not been regular in my last six weeks. But, but I, if I had eaten better post the exercise, I would have recovered better for the next day. And yeah, so just a comment on how, how great it is coming from, from someone at your level to, to actually, you know, be vulnerable enough to say, look, I had it wrong. This is what I should be doing.

Yeah, I guess the only like, thing I'll probably add and like, the final comment is like, I feel like definitely the more we can educate people and change people's mindset around fuel, that is probably the only way we can start reshaping the culture around it for athletes. Because I feel like some of the most damaging stuff is just in, I guess, a byproduct of the people you're around in the sport of triathlon and people's attitudes. The amount of times I had people come on comment on how fit I was looking purely just based off my appearance and they had no idea that I was completely under fueling and starving myself outside of training. And whilst I might have looked, you know, fit because I'd lost some weight, I had also lost a lot of muscle and was injured shortly after. So, yeah, and I, I, yeah, I've made the comment before, like, I've now been able to fully embrace, like, my strength is my strength and, you know, it's, if I can look after myself mentally, physically and like, fuel myself well and like, then that'll lead to consistency and I know for a fact that'll lead to performance. So that would probably be my Last comment.

Totally agree. And it's funny, dad and I were just talking before you came on about. He was just mentioning back when you went to Kona in the 80s, and, and he's told this story before, but, you know, he comes from an Australian winter going into Kona, and the Americans have come from summer, and he would turn up and they all look as fit and as tanned and as healthy as ever, and he feels like a pale, white Australian. And it's just looks aren't what matters about results. And he said all those really fit tan guys, you know, he was ahead of them all at the end of the race and that's what's most important. So, Emma, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for your openness. You've clearly done so much work. Work. And mentally, I think just done so much work. And I think that, you know, you doing the work and finding your way through these problems just is a great example and helps so many athletes out there. So just awesome. Thanks for. Thanks for the conversation. We really enjoyed it.

My pleasure, guys. It's been, yeah, it's been a joy to chat to you all and I hope people can take some lessons away from it.

Cheers. We'll finish there. Thanks for listening, everyone, and we'll see you on the next episode. Sam.