What To Eat To Go Faster

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you as it has been all year by Tribello Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined as always by your host, former Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly. And I am Jordan Donnelly. I'm really excited for today's episode of the podcast because we've got a special guest. It's third time appearing on the podcast. We love our conversations with him every time. And today's conversation was no different. That's Dr. Harry, our resident nutrition expert. Because this is a topic that you can just talk about what feels like forever on, it is a fascinating topic. There is so much to learn from it. There is still so many, so many unknowns about it. But yeah, I was, I was really excited to talk, to get to talk to Harry again today and explore a few more things. And I know the listeners will get a lot out of it one day.

Yeah, I think it gave us a little bit more clarity across, you know, we're trying to find the extras here in our podcast for performance. That's what our podcast is about, is trying to give listeners something that will motivate them to go the next step. And you know, we are all about trying to improve ourselves and as athletes, but as humans as well, and having a well rounded nutritional program as well as a performance based athletic program. Whether you're a cyclist or a triathlete or a runner, these are the things that we're talking about on this podcast and it's things like understanding what the nutrition component means. Also having goals. Are you wanting to be lighter? Do you want to, you know, perform better or both? You know, obviously as an athlete you want to have the lightest possible weight you can on your bike and therefore your performance will go up, push more power, lose weight and wham, you become a better cyclist. But he also talks about being in charge of measuring your progress and having feedback and data, but also to enjoy, enjoy being in control of your own destiny. And not only is this for improvement in performance, but the thing that he loves talking about is this is going to make you possibly live longer if you actually look after yourself and have control of your own destiny and not be a slave to the carbs that we so devour as a society. And I'm a carb lover, but we can certainly learn. Every time we talk to Harry, we learn something new that we can invest in our actual lifestyle. And that's what I love about hearing Harry. I can listen to him all day.

Yeah, Most people can. And I've said that he was one of my favorite podcasts from last year. The lessons he taught in that podcast were some of my favorite lessons of the year as a whole. Exactly what you just touching on then, you know, not being a slave to your appetite. I just think some of the stuff he talks about is game changing for people. And we've, we've spoken a little bit as well about how athletes have said to you how much their life has improved because of, you know, training and because of getting their nutrition right. And I think that is just incredible and it can't be underestimated how powerful that is. So without further ado, enjoy the episode. Here we are now. All right, we want to welcome back our resident nutrition expert, Dr. Harry on the podcast. Harry, thank you very much for joining us again.

Absolutely, my pleasure, guys. Glad to be here.

So, before we get into the nutrition side of things, I want to ask you about how you're feeling a couple of weeks after reveling in the glory of an Australian teams time trial championship.

Well, I mean, I think if anyone had seen some of the photos, if anyone's seen some of the photos from after the event, you'd know how I've been feeling. Had a big cheesy grin that no one could have wiped off my face. But no, it was just an amazing day, amazing experience. The build up, the shenanigans of the race, the, you know, the performance of my teammates in particular, and my own performance just to do what I could. Just, it was, that's the cycling thrill of my life so far. And now I'm hungry for more success and more improvement and want to be able to stick with, stick with those guys. So just, and you know, hats off to you guys in preparing us and creating the culture and the, and the esprit de corps that breeds such a successful, you know, set of performances, individual and team wise. I think that photo, I'm not sure how people can see this photo, but basically we put together a podium photo with the champions on the team time trial day, and it was filled with trivelo jerseys, which was just magnificent.

So, yeah, we spoke, we spoke after the race and you know, we spoke about the fact that every week, Tuesday morning, you guys were preparing As a team, 5, 6am on Beach Road for so long. And so to stand there and get that jersey was well worth it. So I wanted to start the podcast off on that note. But let's get into it because the people want to hear about nutrition because it is such a Fascinating topic. It's one that you can just talk about endlessly. We've had countless conversations with you about it, countless conversations with tribal athletes about it, and it's always evolving. And we're just talking off air about the fact that I really like you just said then you're as much as a student as you are an expert, because we just don't have concrete facts about this is what it is, black and white, and no one can argue against that. It's a lot of changing and developing and more research always needed. So I want to ask you, since last time you're on the podcast, what more have you learned? What kind of things have you changed your mind about or found that work really well?

Yeah, well, I think you're right. So, again, just for clarity, I wanted to declare that I consider myself to be a student of this whole field of endeavour, whole field of research and medicine and just life in general. I haven't really changed my big picture view of nutrition. There are certain principles that hold true today just as much, if not more so than when we had our conversation last time, such as the merits of a low or very low carbohydrate diet in general, even for athletes, endurance athletes that are constantly putting themselves and others to the sword in terms of performance. So that hasn't changed. But I think since our last conversation, what I have learned is just how differently some people respond to and engage with different programs of nutrition. I have had the pleasure of looking after people that have not only followed my guidance and recommendations, but have created new standards in how they've been adopted right through to others that have done their best but haven't managed really to fully exercise the program and seen the differences in outcomes, the difference in sort of the rate of change that's being experienced, and definitely the difference in the level of performance that's been achieved. And just further to that, I think what I've. What I've learned is that the most success has been garnered by people that have taken the tools and made them habit, as opposed to suffering under new standards or new dietary guidelines or what have you. They've adopted into their lives and that's just who they have become. They've started living. I don't know how glib this will sound, but they've started living like the person that they want to be.

And.

That'S just shown up in the end, that they've made these changes in their mind for life, for their own wellness and their own performance. And I've just been amazed at some of the outcomes, I mean, it's been spectacular. The other thing is, I've become less dogmatic about rules.

I like that.

So I think not everyone's an Olympian, and not everyone can execute like that, but everyone can benefit, provided that they use the tools that I've given them, nutritional and otherwise, to make gains. Most of the gains. Well, there are several gains that can be made by modifying what you eat. In terms of what we're talking about, which is athletic performance, that's what this podcast is about, going faster, right? Let's face it, we want to be lighter. In general, there are very few of us that could say to ourselves, I'm at my ideal race weight today. I don't. I mean, I might know a couple of them, but by and large, 90% of us are a couple of kilos. You know, anywhere from a couple of kilos through to 15 kilos. Too heavy. That's the first thing. The second thing, and probably the more important in the long run, is the metabolic adaptation that occurs from just restricting carbohydrate intake just a little bit. And that's, you know, I think that's really what I'm trying to get across to people, is there's a few ways we can benefit from modifying our diet. One of them is weight loss. Another one's metabolic function, and the third is probably longevity living longer. We know that the. We know, as we discussed last time, the high carbohydrate intake diet is not a great one for us as humans long term.

There's some great points that you started off with, as usual, Harry, and what you said earlier, look, you know, this podcast is we're just trying to improve our performance. And that's what the listeners are just listening to every sentence you say and trying to get that. The secret, which is almost not a secret, because if you go on the program, for example, as a cyclist doing the sessions that I give you, it seems like it's a secret. What do I do? When do I do it? How much intensity do I do? And the same is with the nutritional aspect of it. It's no secret if you just follow these steps. And I find in my coaching, the people who do a version of my program get a version of the results. And it's not, you know, you look at the nationals last week, the standout performers were those who not only did your nutritional program 100%, my training program, 100%, the sleep pattern program, the recovery program, the massage, every 1 percenter you can throw at them, they were the ones standing on the top of the dice. Is that a fair assumption of what the nutritional program is like as well? A version gives you a version of the result?

I think so. You know, it's easy to talk about principles, isn't it? I can talk about the principles of a, of a nutrition program for endurance athletes. It's pretty simple. We want to reduce the amount of carbohydrate at the same time as increasing the amount of fat, maintaining a modest level of protein intake. However, the devil is in the detail, right? As it is, as it is in your program. The devil is in what, what constitutes the percentage of FTP to perform your under in an under an over session. The precision, at least at the start until these habits are formed, the precision is required and the devil's in the detail. And absolutely the people that adhered most closely to my advice on a, not on a, not just on a high level, but on a detailed level, what to eat on what day. And I'm not trying to make things mystical for the listeners, I am saying that there is a level of complexity in choosing foods, you know, just what to eat for the day of a Rico, the same as the day of a high intensity interval session, the same as a four, four and a half, five and a half hour ride on a Saturday. These things all matter. And yeah, those that stick best to the program get the best results as that's absolutely true. I mean it helps to have good athletic pedigree, let's face it. But you know, not all of us have that. So you've got to use the 1 percenters. And to that point, Gerry, that you raised, this is not just about nutrition. I mean, nutrition is our topic. But if you, if you only do nutrition but get four hours sleep a night, never stretch or do massage or core strength or anything like that, you're not going to perform to the best of your ability. So it's one, you know, it's, it's one facet of a multi faceted program as far as I can see it.

Anyway, I want you to talk about the steep body adaptation curve and how that differs depending on the athlete. So you spoke at the start about habits and the athletes that did really well made it a habit. And I was talking to a tribal athlete about this at the nationals who said for them it was a big change. Um, it was quite drastic and it took them probably only 10 or 11 days, which is a long time when you're getting used to it. Um, until they just said, I just stopped craving snacks, I stopped craving any sugar and it just felt really normal. So how do you find the differing responses in people? And you spoke last time on the podcast about the fact that dad himself is an example of someone that's so well trained, it was as steep an adaptation compared to your average Joe, who has never tried anything like this.

Yeah.

So really good question. And actually, now that you mentioned this, I can reflect back on things that I've changed over the last period since we spoke. And that is, I'm going to get to the answer to your question, Jordan. But first I have to say what I did learn is about expectation management. I needed to learn that people respond differently and they suffer differently at the start. And I'm over using that word. It's not so much sufferance at the start. One of the tools that I give to people that I'm looking after is freedom from hunger. This is so fundamental to everything that follows. If we can't cross that bridge, we can't go any further. I must free people up from hunger because all the good things come downstream once you are no longer a slave to your appetite. Now, as we spoke about, appetite is a massively strong drive that affects all of us, every single one of us. There's no way of getting around it. You will eventually you will feel hungry if you don't eat enough. But in sort of employing a extremely low carbohydrate diet at the start, AKA a ketogenic diet, people will, over a period of time, be liberated from their hunger. And that occurs as their body upregulates metabolic changes that include the production of ketones to fuel the brain. Now, if you're Gerard Donnelly, you don't need that long to adapt to a ketogenic diet. You probably do it within two days. You don't get the keto flu. You might feel a little bit off colour for a day or so. And then there are others that really feel it for a couple of weeks. And for those people, the comfort comes from expectation management. So I say you're going to feel like shit, you're not going to be able to pedal, in fact, 50 watts is going to feel like a threshold session. If I say that, then they may be pleasantly surprised. If they have somewhere hidden in their background, you know, 5,000 meter track background or something like that, then lo and behold, they adapt very quickly because actually those metabolic pathways were not really in mothballs. And so, you know, that is, in my experience, the difference is this time at the start, where I'm trying to get people liberated from their hunger and I can I can predict it's going to be between a few days and a few weeks. And I make up that time with a range of endeavors that include all sorts of distractions. You know, they've got to go shop, they've got to do all the shopping. They've got to get some gadgets to start measuring their ketones, whether it be in blood, urine or breath. I'm getting them prepared to track their sleep, to, you know, track their recovery, their heart rate, all sorts of stuff. So by the time they sort of look up, they're adapted. They're adapted, exactly right. And then I can. Then I can start experimenting with the next phases, which by and large include things like intermittent fasting, extended fasting. I know to the, to the. To the naive listener, this will sound like I'm just depriving people of food. That's not the case. You know, these athletes are eating just as much in terms of calories as anyone else. But what has been changed is what they're eating and the timing that they're eating. And there are metabolic and longevity benefits from intermittent fasting. So that typically constitutes the second phase. And then it's really about creating adaptations that enable athletes to perform at a lower. To perform better and better at a low level of carbohydrate consumption. Because then when carbohydrate is added, they perform even better. It's like rocket fuel. And they conserve glycogen, which is gold dust, at the end of a race. So if you've got the most glycogen, when the hammer goes down, you will outlast your competition and you'll win. And that. We saw that happen.

I just wanted. You did say some really good things there and that answer. And one of the things is it's easy for people to sit back and go, well, of course, if you starve your body, you're going to achieve the weight loss. But the one thing I wanted to point out to the listeners is you can't actually do the training program with no fuel. And so actual just starving is going to prevent you from actually finishing any session. So that's where the metabolic adaptation is so crucial to the weight loss and to the longevity, you know, the three facets you talked about. So we need to get the listeners to understand that it's just not starving. It's actually eating the right fuel so that you can still function and perform. And that's, I think, where people get lost. I can do that. I can just not eat and fast and I'll be fine. Well, you're not adapting to anything. You're just starving yourself.

And not only that, but they won't be able to do it because as we've discussed previously and as I educate every patient on, you can't outrun hunger. It just, it's, you can try, you can do it for a day, you could possibly do it for two days. You might even succeed in doing it for a week. I don't think so. But come any type of stress, any type of adversity, or any type of distraction when willpower is not there on call, then hunger will kick in and kick ass. There's just, you cannot outrun it. So it's not a strategy. It's actually very short term thinking. We know this. All of us have tried dieting, all of us have tried calorie restriction. Eat less, move more. It doesn't work. And it doesn't work for a range of reasons that involve complex sets of hormones and an innate drive to put calories in our body that is essential for survival. So you're right, it has to be a particular way of going about things. This is why I am such an advocate. I'm not religious about this. Right. I'm not fervently advocating that everyone go on a ketogenic diet tomorrow for the rest of their lives. That's absolutely not the case. It's having it as a tool in the toolbox that needs to be pulled out periodically, just like training blocks. I mean, as we go on, you know, all these concepts in training, these were not always known. It was not always known to taper. I mean, I think the discovery of taper was quite accidental. You know, someone got sick a week out from their marathon with gastro, couldn't train, had a rest, rehydrated and went. And just slaughtered everyone in the competition. And they went, hey, there must be something to this. And the same goes for base build, pre race, all that stuff. That's all relatively new. And I believe the same is true in nutrition. And I, and, and I know, I know you guys are itching to talk about heat and altitude. I think there's a role for periodizing those as well. So, yeah, again, ketogenic diet, really good for a couple of reasons, you know, in that it removes hunger from your life and that's just, that's so powerful because then, then we can pull other levers and periodize our nutrition and training appropriately.

It's so true. And you know, when you are starving, you actually can't concentrate on anything, can you? You can't function as a human being because you've got to fulfill that. That almost, you know, it's just an innate desire to eat first and.

Absolutely, absolutely. So that's. Yeah, that's, that's right, that's. That's why, as I said, I, I don't really enjoy a ketogenic diet. I actually get, I get pretty bored of it pretty quickly. I can do it for a month if I have to, but it's, it's not my, it's not my favorite diet. I feel, I feel it's a bit sort of dry and I find myself looking for fruit or, you know, something starchy, obviously, because that's, that's what my body is telling me to do and I'm ignoring it. I'll tell you a good one, though. There's a patient I'm looking after that said to me, said to me just the other day, and he's going better than he's ever gone. And he's at least lightest weight that I've ever known him. You know, he's lost 10 or 12 kilograms from an 83 kilo guy. And he said, yeah, I find I can have a big night out, big meal and a few drinks and then I'll just go keto for a couple of days. And I thought, that's exactly, that's exactly how to do it. Exactly how to do it. Just reset your body and away you go.

It's so true in not only nutrition, but in anything. And how many times, Jordan, have we talked about anything that's unsustainable? Guess what? You're going to fail at it because it's extreme. So, you know, pick an extreme thing to do and if it's, if it's not something you can last at, you're going to give up. And so you've got to have versions. And that's kind of what the message you're trying to get across, isn't it? You need to do the staple, the staple property Kickstarter and then it's versions of it. I'm doing exactly the same thing. As a big event comes near, I just switch into that mode of. Right. I need to watch these things with the carbs. I need to have my short fasting periods and wham. I've got the weight I want within four days and I can hold that for a month.

Yep. And I think, you know, it's. You use the word versions. But what it is really is once you've achieved mastery, then you can, then you can pull the levers at specific Times because there's no half keto, you know, there's no half intermittent fasting. These are things that have to be executed fully to get the benefit. But when to do that is really dependent on where in your program or where in your life you're up to.

Can you clarify for me when an athlete needs to do a endurance ride or run, so on the weekend they either doing a big four to six hour ride or they're doing a big two hour run. And if they're intermittent fasting, they're most likely not eating before that. So you're wanting them to be able to do that fasted and that helps create fat adaption. So using fat for fuel. But how do you draw that line of just not training your body starved?

Well, my answer to that is it depends. It depends on the goal. Yeah, this is something you guys talk about. Every, every podcast depends on the goal for the session. What is the goal of the session? If the goal of the session is to, is to raise your level of fitness, you know, your ability to keep pressure on the pedals, to hold a wheel going up a hill where you know it's going to be hard, that sort of thing, then I would not be advocating for that to be performed faster. If it's a, specifically a endurance ride where you're just trying to get K's into your legs, either running or cycling, then it's not a bad time to experiment with a minimum amount of food intake. Bearing in mind that if you were to try a five hour ride of moderate intensity fasted, okay, we're talking about something like 4,000 calories of exertion and not a single calorie of food intake. That's hard for anyone. And I would think that the goals of the session will not be met if that's the case. So in that case, what I've been advocating and I found great success with this is on the order of a quarter to a third of whatever the energy expenditures going to be to be divided between a small amount of food before the session and a little bit and then the rest spread out across the session, in particular feeding intervals. So I've had good success with this personally and amongst the athletes I look after. But again, there are other times and you know, I know. So Gerry scratched his head wondering where I've just gone. I wonder how far I can ride before I bonk. You know, I wonder if I can get to 150Ks at 180 watts and see how far I can get without crashing. I mean when you do bonk, of course, you're a long way behind in everything. You're likely to be dehydrated, you're likely to be electrolyte deplete, you're likely to, you're definitely glycogen deplete. And yeah, I've, I've had those rides where I bonked with 20ks to go and literally needed, you know, half the ride's worth of food just to be able to get home. And that, that in itself, well, there, there is some adaptation, but in the end you get, you scratch it and you go, well, maybe next time I'll just eat a bit more during the, during the ride and complete the goals, achieve the goals of the session. But does that answer your question there?

Look, and I think on that exactly what you've just said about, you know, are the goals being met of the session? Is there value in bonking? Well, you know, the next day training session will be a problem and probably two or three days down the track if you don't actually refuel and you know, if you're in the middle of fasting period, you're actually not going to be able to train at all, you know, and it could actually be disastrously detrimental to your, you know, we're trying to do nutrition for performance improvement, not for regression.

No, precisely. And that's exactly right. So it does take a lot of precision. And with a couple of the guys leading up to the nationals, we employed a low carbohydrate diet in the days leading up and then repleted them with about two days to go. So they were maximally soaking up and storing glucose as glycogen and the performance was very clear.

A follow up question on this note is again, where do you draw the line post session with your fuel? So not just an endurance session, any, any session, a midweek high intensity session. Uh, I've heard that the first half an hour is vital for fuel, for recovery and that can affect the next day or the next couple of days. Um, yeah, what, what's the stance on that with what you should be taking in half hour, hour after exercise?

Depends. It depends again, depends on what you're trying to do. Depends on the phase you're in. So that's that. I know that's an unhelpful answer, but if, if an athlete is in a very low carbohydrate phase of their program, I would say what you need is a bit of protein. So protein shake with some, with some calories as fat, MCT oil or something. Like that. And that's all you take protein in an attempt to spare muscle being converted into fuel. But on the other hand, if you have just emptied the tank and now is time to carbohydrate load with an A race coming up in within 30 minutes, you want to have a small carbohydrate meal, followed up about 45 minutes later with another small carbohydrate meal, followed up another 45 minutes later with another small carbohydrate meal. I mean, I'm talking, you know, a bowl of rice, a slice of toast, et cetera, to maximally integrate that into muscle and Liverpool.

Why is that? Why are the smaller portions timed, spaced out?

Do that just because the gut gets overloaded. And particularly in athletes that have been restricting carbohydrate, if you hit, you hit someone with a high carbohydrate load that's been restricted, they will blow up like a balloon, be very uncomfortable and in any case simply won't, simply won't convert that into stored glycogen. Anyway.

So what are the, what are the key things that you would say come up over and over that you go? These things are vital for the success of the goal?

Well, it is actually very similar to what you guys do. That shouldn't be surprising. Of course, number one is always induction and education. If someone understands the concepts of play and understands the principles, then they are able to get it right in their own head and make sense of it. And it doesn't need to be scientifically accurate. You know, they don't need to know all the metabolic pathways, they just need. They need a construct in their own head of how it works. Right? And that's always the place to start. The second thing I've learned is that people do need a goal. They need. Well, they do better if they have a goal. And it could be, it could be a weight target or it could be a performance goal or it could be both, but they need, they definitely do better. And I, as you know, I sort of tried my hand at being like a medical coach and found that once people had either achieved their goal or had lost sight of their goal that they just treaded water. And it was dissatisfying to me and I'm certain it was dissatisfying to them. So really, unless there's a clearly articulated goal, success is less likely. The third thing, again in line with what you guys do is you have to measure and monitor at least until things are habitual, right? So I get my patients to measure all sorts of stuff including their food intake, their caloric intake, their macronutrient intake, their sleep, their heart rate, heart rate variability and so forth. Because it's a score that they can look at. And just looking at it modifies the outcome. If you look at what you're eating and you look at how many calories you're eating, you look at how much sleep you're getting, well, you're probably going to subconsciously do something to improve those numbers.

Probably.

That is my experience. And on that, you need to get to know your numbers. Like any runner or cyclist or triathlete, you need to become intimate with your numbers. You need to know what your basal metabolic rate is, because then you'll get a feel. You will develop these feels. I listen to your podcast and your power meter goes down mid race. You've got to have another number to go by, right? Your speed, your heart rate, whatever. Same goes in nutrition. Once you've got a feel, you can be out at a restaurant and know just without, you don't need to plug it in, you'll just know roughly what you're consuming. And I think. And that makes it sustainable and to some extent, enjoyable. That's the other thing. Sorry, if I could just digress. I know I've painted this picture of it being quite a miserable experience. It's not. It is so empowering to get on top of your health. Like, there is nothing better. There's no better feeling than going, I've got my shit together. And I often talk about pleasure versus happiness. Okay, a piece of apple pie will give you pleasure, but happiness, that comes from standing on top of the podium at the Nationals, right?

That's different.

And the same goes for getting on top of your health, knowing that you're less at risk of heart disease, less at risk of cancer, less at risk of diabetes. This gives you comfort in that you've got your hands on the steering wheel, possibly for the first time in your life. So. I know, I know I sort of started out with a pretty dim picture and apologies, but I think it's a wonderful thing actually having this information to take control. The last thing I wanted to say in terms of success outcomes, sleep greatly underrated, hard to, sometimes hard to improve. But, you know, I wouldn't want you to have a camera in my bedroom to see what sort of shenanigans I've got set up to help me sleep better. I mean, I. Look, it's a bit like a circus, you know, I've got a. Like a cooling pad on top of my mattress. I'VE got an air conditioner in the room, I wear an eye mask. I've got shushing sounds going in my ear. I mean, it's a joke, but my oura ring tells me I get a sleep score sort of somewhere between 80 and 95 when I do that stuff. And when I don't, it's a bloody disaster. So I've started focusing on sleep and I think lots of health benefits come out of improving sleep, the quality and the quantity of sleep that we get. And it definitely is important for weight loss and integrating some of the other adaptations that are involved in the program. I give.

So far it's been gold. And I do know we wanted to talk about altitude and on that sort of segue from sleeping in altitude and training at altitude. And I'm just conscious that we've been talking, you know, a fair bit of time already, so can we just move on to the next concept? And that's, you know, the value of performance improvement. And, you know, you've, you've been a guinea pig to yourself and gone through and so have I sleeping at altitude. And you know, from a medical viewpoint, and lots of us are quite happy to accept that when we jump into a car, the car drives. We don't know how the engine works, but we just believe it will work and it does. And so that the knowledge about. When you were saying education is important to understand how things work to, to a certain point, but you've got to trust that the research has been done just like the COVID vaccine. We're trusting that it's right. So, getting back to altitude questions, so in your opinion, how valuable is that in performance improvement for people who want to get that extra percentage?

Big topic, big topic and very, very controversial. And I want to say from the outset that I don't think we know on a mass scale the benefit of altitude for performance or general health yet, but we will soon. And the reason we will soon is the advent of live high train low environments such as bedrooms equipped with, you know, hypoxic conditions at altitude simulator, which is, yes, I have to declare I have one in, in my bedroom. So my wife and I sleep at altitude periodically according to a program that I'm sort of making up as I go along. That's the first thing to say. What I can also tell you is that there are people that respond to altitude and people that don't respond so well to altitude. So that's well documented that the response, both in terms of your biological parameters and your performance do vary across People using altitude. So what does altitude do? Well, obviously it's exposing you to a low oxygen environment. That's the whole purpose. And that in turn will trigger changes in the blood, particularly, it'll trigger the endogenous production of epo, which, as we know, then stimulates red blood cell production. What, what I know is that the.

Change.

The change in sort of blood haemoglobin, which is the, which is the molecule that carries oxygen after being at altitude for a period, can be increased by something like somewhere between 6 and 10%. That doesn't necessarily translate to a 6 to 10% increase in aerobic ability. The literature is definitely still out on that one.

I was going to ask, what is, what does that 6 to 10% mean?

Yeah, well, I mean, there's this concept of EPO as a placebo. Okay. So for those, I mean, there's.

You.

Know, the performance improvements are within striking distance of placebo. So you could give them a sugar pill, say, this is epo, mate, see how you go. And you may get similar benefits in terms of performance. So the jury is still out on altitude and might I say on EPO for that matter. There have been studies where they administer highly trained athletes with epo and their performance benefit is not that different to placebo. So that is controversial. It's controversial. And, you know, obviously we take the view that EPO will improve performance and so does the, you know, WADA and so forth, because it might well do. No question. We're talking about altitude, of course. So another couple of key points I can give you is that the benefit could be divided into two categories. One is increasing your red cell mass, so how much red blood cell you've got in your body to carry oxygen, to increase your aerobic capacity. And the other one is more subtle and not very well understood, but is probably quite quick. It's probably quite quick to come on. So within a day or two of being at altitude, you won't have produced way more red blood cells, but you will already have adaptations. And so at what altitude do you get these benefits? In the literature, as low as 1500 meters, optimally, 2000 to 2 and a half thousand meters of altitude, and optimally for a period of weeks. And again, this is something I'd love to talk to you about at length another time, once I've learned more and experienced more myself. But definitely there is a, there is a way to do this, to build this into a training program, to periodize it, to time it with a races, because it is a science to know when to be at altitude, when to come out of altitude relative to an upcoming race.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're not so sure on what the literature says and the outcomes of it yet. You sleep with an altitude tent?

I do. So I'm, I'll declare straight away that I'm. Well, a, I'm, I always experiment on myself, but. And two, there's enough support in the literature. It's controversial, but there is support in the literature. But I am also interested in the longevity benefit that comes from something called hormesis, which is basically exposing the body to difficulty and the long term benefit of that. So you can access this hormesis and a process in the body known as autophagy, which is basically like recycling old, dead, shitty DNA and cells to reduce your cancer risk and maintain your chance of living longer by exposure to heat, like sauna, altitude, carbohydrate restriction, calorie restriction, all of these things can potentially increase our lifespan through reducing our risk of certain diseases. So I'm, I'm an interested experimenter and student of that outside of performance. So yeah, that's why I'm interested. But as you say, as you rightly point out, the literature is definitely divided on the benefit largely because there is a paucity of really good studies. There's just not that many good studies. And it took researchers a long time to figure out that if you try and train at high altitude, you just can't, you can't push the power, you can't run at that pace. So they had, they. So that's, it was only, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago that the concept of live high, train low actually came about. You know that they had these training camps in Colorado and then they'd come and do their sessions indoors at Norma Barrack, norm oxic conditions. So it's just, this is all very new and as I said now with the ability to, because I'm not a massive fan of the tent because I get claustrophobic. But now with, you know, with systems where you're in a bedroom, you know, you could get 10, 11 hours in your bedroom at 2,000 meters and see the benefit.

So yeah, fascinating.

There is so much in it. And look, it's no different, the altitude. There is a certain amount of metabolic adaptation occurring as well. Just like in nutrition, just like in training. You know, it's no coincidence that it seemed like the Kenyans who lived at, you know, 2000, the South Americans, the, you know, the Ethiopians, and you just Rattle off. Every culture that lived above a certain height had years of adapting, so they were already adapted and therefore they could train hard at altitude. And this is one of the points you're saying we're not adapted because we don't, we haven't lived at altitude for our entire life. So therefore when we go to train we just, we're gasping with the lack of oxygen in the air. And that's the value of these guys who can sleep and train without, you know, they're trying to do as a runner, you're trying to do 6 by 1k at 2:30 pace. They have no issue doing that at Alkeshu. Whereas know average Joe comes from sea level. He's going to absolutely fail at that session.

Absolutely. I'll tell you another interesting one. Just, just for interest sake, there was a study done in Kenyan runners a couple of years ago and they gave Kenyan runners EPO every second day for four weeks. And they gave.

Ethical study.

Yeah, ethical study, ethical study. And they also gave, you know, sea level athletes epo. And the, and the rise in haemoglobin in the Kenyans who were living at like 2200 meters was bugger all. So actually most of the benefit of, most of the benefit was achieved just by altitude. Living at altitude, training at altitude. So they kind of didn't really need the EPO because they'd already got that benefit alone. So it's these sort of studies that make me think it is possible, it is possible to dope legally with altitude. That's my underlying belief is that it is a performance, performance enhancer that is legal at, legal at the moment.

I just want to pick up on something we just talked about before and it was the placebo effect of epo. It was off the topic, but it's such a ripper because for me the investment should be in the psychologist to get you to think that you are a world beater today. You know, that is where we should be actually the mind and we, I think in the last 10 or 15 years there's been more psychologists employed for athletes than there ever has before because people understand how valuable it is to have the right mindset and focus and single mindedness. It is like taking EPO or sleeping at altitude. The benefits you get from having the right mindset. And we've talked about this in many podcasts, not only on this topic but, but you know, would that be your opinion, Harry, that is untapped?

Well, I actually think again if you look at the performance of the trivelo athletes at the Nationals that exceeds what should have happened on a statistical basis, which to me represents the potency of non physiological intervention. For me, it is a cultural intervention, it is a psychological intervention that you've created in the cycling group. So I think you're right. Whether you need a coach or a psychologist might depend on the individual, but certainly there is performance to be tapped that is outside what your blood biochemistry, your blood hematology and biochemistry can explain. And equally there's probably, you know, as I said, there's. You might get a 8% uplift in your oxygen carrying capacity from altitude or some other means. But how come we can't, how come we haven't seen an 8% increase in performance from that in any of the studies? And that's again, it's probably, there's probably some limiter. You know, I've mentioned that book, Endure by Alex Hutchins. That's a really good read for any of the listeners and he talks about some of the limiting factors to human performance. Really good read. So I recommend that.

I think that'll be my next book. Will Walker touched on the podcast last week because we asked him about his record VO2 max of 94 and he made the interesting and very valid point that he believes that someone with a VO2 max of 60 could still compete against the world's best. You know, it's not exactly what you just said then. You know, there's a lot more to performance than just. Yeah, what's your hemoglobin count or your biochemistry, your physiology? Yeah.

Oh, so true. And how do you explain. How do you explain two people with similar FTP with just vastly different race performance result? Race results? There's something more to it, obviously.

Yep. So I want to finish with asking you a couple of last questions. And one is what is the most or what are the most frequently asked questions or topics that you get from your, your patients or people asking you about nutrition that you want to. You could quickly just answer.

If I'm honest, the most common questions are bit inane and silly. Am I allowed to eat yogurt? Does weet bix count as carbohydrate if I don't put milk on it? It's just silly stuff. That's what I get mostly.

Most people wouldn't know the answers to those.

Yeah, I mean, it's good educating people on various aspects of nutrition, I think. Look, it's a lot to do, as I said, with expectation management. How long is this going to take? When will I see the change and so forth. They are honestly the main questions that I get. And I've had to learn to manage expectation because sometimes they're like a border gate and people will lose 10% of their body weight within weeks and their performance is amazing. We know a few examples of those in the coaching group and others. It just is a slower burn, but no one fails to make gains if they stick to the program. Every single person that I've looked after, okay, some take a bit longer, but the principles, the principles applied will work on everyone. So, yeah, I mean, they're the main. And the other ones are what do I eat before a session? What do I during a session? You know, if you're. Again, depends on the. Depends on the phase and the particular type of session. But I think the real. The one that I really cottoned onto quite recently, especially once an athlete was pretty well adapted but now looking for performance benefits during sessions, was just to add a little bit of carbohydrate before the session and during, but not, not too much and to maintain, you know, 100 grams a day of carbohydrate as a. As a rule. So they're the main. The main two questions I get.

I suppose that's a great summary that you said that, you know, eventually, it doesn't matter whether it's one minute or one month or, you know, six months, you will eventually achieve the goal if you stick with it. And I think I said in the podcast a couple of weeks ago, I was listening to an interview from Ed Sheeran and he was saying he was a really average singer, really average musician in terms of playing any instruments. And he said the more you work at something, you give yourself no chance except get better. And it's such a true statement, you know, you can't help it if you just keep plugging away. And this is the thing that I'm trying to get across to the listeners in getting someone like you on Harry, who is going to encourage people that you, you know, there is no other solution. If you stick with the process, eventually you will succeed. And I'm saying that message, and so is Jordan. Now, we've got so many examples of this. You know, Jordan took three years to break two minutes in an 800. You know, that is just an outlying example of sticking with the process and you will succeed.

Hope we can keep celebrating that. Every podcast.

That's right.

No, great point, dad. Yeah, Harry, so much value in being able to have these conversations with you. We absolutely love it. We know the listeners do as well. And I feel like we could Talk for hours. Which is why we'll definitely have you back on the podcast very soon because these topics are just so much fun to dive into.

I agree. No, I love it. It's great fun, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. I really want to reiterate the point you made in the middle of the podcast, which is an absolutely outstanding point on pleasure versus happiness. And we, I think, yeah, over the three podcasts where we spoke about nutrition, we have painted a little bit of a grim picture, but what you said was unbelievable. I just kind of found that just so profound. And last year when we did our wrap up for the year, we did our biggest lessons, my number one lesson was what you taught us about nutrition and how you don't have to be a slave to your appetite. And I just think there is such an amazing lesson in that. And when you can get on top of it, it is liberating. And it's. You're looking at the world differently. You know, suddenly food isn't controlling you. And this is from a perspective of myself where I've never really had a problem with food or weight, but yeah, I know in society you've said this, it's a big problem. And so to be able to get on top of that and achieve that happiness level compared to succumbing to the pleasure of what your appetite wants is, yeah, Quite profound.

Imagine being in control of your own destiny every minute of the day. It's just such a good feeling, isn't it? And you know, we always say people get their ambition and ability confused at times, but once you get on that journey, you know, you certainly, you are in control. And that's such a good feeling. And that's kind of what we're trying to. The message we're trying to get across is you can take control of anything in your life. And I'm not talking about athletic performance or nutrition or whatever. You're in charge of your own destiny if you want to. You know, and there's so many lessons there in life. We are talking about athletic performance, but I'm really an adamant pusher of people taking control of their own destiny. I'll give you the tools, just like you're saying with your nutrition. Here's how to go about it, here's what to do every day, when to do it. Get this order right, and you will be in control of your own destiny. And you will, because you've got feedback from every minute of the day that you're seeing things happen. It's inspiring. And that's what's important. You need to have that analysis coming back at you all the time where you're going, oh, shit, I can do this better next week, I can do this better again. And it's motivating and that's that controlling your own destiny. And I think that's one of the things that if we want to get anything out of this today is that, you know, it's up to you, it's up to each individual as to whether you want to take control of that or whether you want to just carry on the journey that you're on. And there's nothing wrong with that, except we are talking about improving your athletic performance and this is a game changer.

Any comments, final comments from you, Harry?

Well, I don't want to come in over the top of that because I think it was perfectly put.

Perfect. Well, thank you very much for coming on again. Where can people find you if they want to enlist in your services and get this help and take control of their destiny, as dad said?

Well, you can see me on the Sav mantra with Trivelo when we're allowed to ride outdoors again, which hopefully will be this weekend. Or I have a website which is myperformancedoctor.com so myperformancedoctor, all one word dot com.

Perfect. And we'll put that URL in the show notes of the podcast. So if you look at the detailed description of the podcast, you'll be able to see that URL. So thank you so much, Harry. Absolute pleasure. Really enjoy that and can't wait to talk to you again on the next episode.

Absolutely. Thanks, guys.

Cheers.