Why Suffering As An Athlete is Wrong with Jaemin Frazer

Today we have a really exciting and unique type of episode to bring to you. We don't do these types of episodes very often, but when we do, it's because we fully believe that the topic and the guest could really help you as an athlete. We're always looking at ways to make you faster, stronger, or more efficient, but today we're looking at how to do this from a different perspective, from the mindset side of things. And so today's guest is Jaymon Fraser, founder of the Insecurity Project. What does that mean? What What's the Insecurity Project? Well, Jaymon is someone who personally helped two people that we are really close with. These are some of the smartest, most driven, successful people we know, and they couldn't stop raving about how transformative his process was. When they said that, we just thought, okay, we have to talk to this guy. So he works with individuals, high performers, and athletes on their insecurities, their fears, and the deeper work inside themselves that's holding them back. So we absolutely loved this conversation and the topics it brings to light. This is the stuff that needs to be spoken about more in the athlete space. Instead of just covering the physical training side of things. And out of anyone in this world, we really think Jaymin does a brilliant job of opening up that conversation. So we cannot wait for you to hear this. Jaymin Fraser, a very big warm welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming on. And can we start right out of the gate with just asking, why insecurity? What is— what has this journey been for you with insecurity?

Oh boy, when I launched the Insecurity Project, I had a business coach at the time and I said, here's my great idea, I'm going to double down on insecurity. This is my name. And he looked at me like, what do you mean? Like, what are you going to do when that doesn't work? Like, people are insecure about being insecure. That's the worst name I've ever heard. And it goes against business rule. And like, you're not supposed to pitch the problem, you pitch the prize. So it's like saying you're the shit business coach. Like, what? No, that can't be it. And I really loved and respected this guy. I took the wind out of my sails for a few days and then I was driving in the car to Canberra a couple of days later, having a bit of a pity party. And then I thought, hang on, Jaymin, like, he's not your mum. He can't tell you what to do. So it was a chance to check in. What do you want? Well, I see people suffer greatly for not knowing that insecurity is a solvable problem. And for whatever reason, I know that it is. So it would feel incredibly unkind to hold back a solution from the world in an area that causes suffering, untold suffering. So what I'm going to do is put a flag in the ground and go, insecurity, insecurity, insecurity. Even though it's hard, I'm going to talk about it cleanly and intelligently. And when people are ready to face this, they'll know where to find me. So that's what I've done for the last 15 years or so. And I'm not sure there's anyone in the world who's banged on them all, you know, about insecurity than I have over that time.

We're so excited to dive right into it, and we want to start by looking at it from a sport and an athlete perspective. And you've had your own journey as an athlete, uh, going through this, you know, and you, you speak about how insecurity can be a great motivator, um, but for a short term, and then it probably stops serving you at some point. So what did that look like for you as an athlete?

Yeah, well, the, the idea around insecurity is it's, it's universal. It's unavoidable, and it's actually useful for a season. So I describe it like rocket fuel, and I'm sure everyone could have an experience of this if they reflected on their past. Having something to prove and defend is really like— it's one of the strongest motivators. Often people can point to some harsh words someone has said about them, you know, you'll never do that, you're stupid, you're this. And so there's this like it's this great horror and embarrassment, but what rises up in its place is like, right, well, I'll show you. Yeah, I'm going to be the strongest, the fastest, the sharpest to prove that they're wrong, to prove I am better than you say that I am. So that insecurity is so, so useful in terms of performance-enhancing drugs. I'm not sure anything compares with it. And if you look across the world of sport, I would say the highest performing athletes, without doubt, without exception, could point to drivers of insecurity that fuel their performance. You know, I love Michael Jordan. I'm a huge basketball fan. Loved his Netflix documentary a few years ago. But it's like, here's the kid who got cut from the basketball team, you know, never good enough, just this drive. And I don't know whether you've seen the, the episode, but He constantly talks about having to incite violence, making shit up, you know, with other athletes. This guy slighted me, this guy said something about me, so that when I knew, you know, he'd said this, I got on the court and my whole energy was to prove him wrong. And, and so yeah, it's, it's a great motivator. And that was true for me too. Like, I, I love to run. When I was at school, I was a kid that tried hard and never won anything. I was just such a good attitude, such a— but such a tryhard, and so average and ordinary. I just wanted to be excellent, but I was so sure that I wasn't. And there are a few really painful remarks and comments at times that just stuck in my craw. And so, so I became driven to perform. And, and around running— running seemed to be the thing that I wanted to excel at the most. And so I found a way to win, and I found a way to run fast, and I devoted myself to training for marathons and did 4 marathons. And, um, you know, ran a 2:46 marathon in Townsville off the back of this, oh, you know, proving that I am not average, that I am awesome actually. Um, and yeah, and then, and then it all kind of came crashing down when, uh, it was such an unsustainable way to treat my body and such a strange story to run out of. So, you know, I'm sure we'll get to that, but that's, uh, yeah, that's where— how it was useful for me for a period.

I'd love to dive into that more. And, and because, yeah, you're so right that we, we can have these sticking points of, of these insecurities or drive that come from a kind of negative place but seem to fuel a positive result. And so we, we can assume that it's healthy. And you're talking about Michael Jordan then, but I think about Tom Brady example, you know, the greatest quarterback of all time. Watching him now, he's— I'm a big into the NFL, so I'm watching a lot of media, and he's in news media now, and he still treats his job like he's got a chip on his shoulder. Like, his whole story as a quarterback was he had a chip on his shoulder the whole time, and he was so driven to be the best. Like a lot of these hyper, hyper successful people, it comes from this deep-rooted chip on their shoulder. But this year was, uh, was really interesting because his ex-team, the Patriots, made the Super Bowl, and you could see him squirming on, on his media hating their success because he still has his chip on his shoulder that he wants to be the best, and he doesn't want to see any, any young, young quarterback come through and be better than him. And you always want to say to him, let it go, man, like, you did your job, you're as good as you can get, and there's nothing more. And so yeah, I'd love to keep exploring this topic from you about why is it unhealthy to come from that place for a long period.

Well, because it's a young man's game, right, or young woman's game. So every athlete at the peak of their game who retires and then comes back. Every single time it's a mistake, but it's— you just watch it and you're like, oh no. You know, you watch Usain Bolt come and play soccer in Australia, like, you know, you're saying like, this isn't going to go well. You, you need to be the hero and you can't run against the young guys anymore, so now you've got to find some other way to prove you're awesome. Yeah. And so the great problem is it, is it just requires you to have energy to waste. And when you're young, you do have energy to waste. You can steal from Peter to pay Paul. You do not have to live sustainably. You can be driven and pay no heed to rest, no heed to injury, no heed to relationships. You can be single-minded, obsessed, focused, and it works. Well, it appears to work. And then the world breaks down, primarily because you're competing against young upstarts that have the age advantage, the energy advantage. And so physically, you cannot compete at the same level. Your body is breaking down, and the drive is still there and you're watching your performance diminish. So just practically, it, it cannot, it cannot continue based on the physics and biochemistry of an aging human being. So I, I used to be on a mission to kind of address insecurity at all ages. So I got invited into high schools all the time to talk to, you know, 16, 17, 18-year-olds about insecurity. And teachers were very excited and parents are very excited, but do you know who was not excited? 16, 17, 18-year-olds, and they're still little shits, right? And they've still got to go live their life. And then I kind of realized, hang on a minute, it's still working for them. Be pragmatic about it. Don't worry about taking something that's working. Just be there when it stops working to go, oh great, here you are, now you're ready. Let's not say it's good or bad, right or wrong. Let's just say it works, and here's why it works, and here's why it'll stop working. And when it stops working, Okay, now's the time to switch fuel sources to go and examine this strange narrative that has been driving you to see if it's really true. And if you could find an alternate way to be you and to find value in being you in the world, then attaching your whole self-worth and value to performance in one specific area.

It's an interesting topic, isn't it, that insecurity as an adult, you're saying it's good as a positive, but then it can be unsustainable at some point in your life. And, and we always think in the short term, don't we? At the moment it's working for me, so why would I change anything?

Yeah.

And, and then things change in your life. You might have been single at 28 and you had all this time to train, and then all of a sudden you've got a, a job that's way more time-consuming. Uh, you've now got maybe a partner, or you've now got a baby, and all of a sudden what you used to do with your athletic career, for example, um, is now not who you were. Not— you can't identify with that person anymore because your circumstances have changed. And I think there's a lot of people in our audience who are in that position. Um, you know, they've— they're either somewhere between 20 and we've got 70-year-olds. Um, uh, and all of those people have going to be on a journey at some point. So Uh, we always say in our podcast, you know, if something's extreme behavior, eventually it's going to be unsustainable. Eventually. It may take decades or it may take 6 months. Um, but extreme behavior is something that, that is going to drive you to a certain point, but then you need some other things in your life that, that aren't extreme so that you can actually enjoy your life. Um, so, so I'm really intrigued as to Once that insecurity barrier motivator is gone, how does that look from, yeah, the next step in your, in your journey as a human being?

And, and this is the great fear, and this is why you've got Dave— guys like, um, David Goggins and Jocko Willink, you know, the ex-military hardasses that are really driving this discipline or die message even in their age, like there's no sign of them slowing down even as their body is breaking down. And it's hard to watch. It's— you kind of go, this, this can't end. Like, this is not an infinite strategy to go on into the future. At some point, this actually breaks down, and people can see that but are terrified of going, but I only know how to get the best out of myself fighting against myself from this place of managing myself from mistrust. So The hypothesis, if you're willing to consider it, is that sure, when you're young, let's say proving and defending is likely to create your greatest source of drive and therefore increase your performance the most. I'm suggesting if you can be rational and objective about it, that there is no way possible that proving and defending will be your greatest source of performance from midlife and beyond. You're still putting all your best energy into proving and defending that you matter. And then now the insecure wanker in the room, it doesn't look good. And it's not driving up performance, it's now a performance inhibitor and everything is suffering. So I watch people who have nothing to prove and defend, who are relaxed and at ease, who have resolved these strange narratives about their lack of value and worth they've carried from their childhood and are at ease with themselves. I watch them be able to trust their natural ability and follow their heart into life-giving practices and have all parts of themselves aligned in the same direction. There's no war anymore. The war's over. And, and the body craves health. You know, in my own experience, I actually love to run. I don't have to fight myself to run. It's what I love to do and what I'm good at. And so if I'm not trying to prove anything, it turns out that with the handbrake off, I, I run well, I run at ease, and, and my performance increased off the back of being at peace with myself rather than trying to prove and defend. So yeah, it's a, it's a strange thing for people to get their head around that you could do better than self-discipline. But it is a young person's game built on mistrusting yourself, all driven by insecurity, and it cannot be peak performance from midlife.

I want to dive into, into this, this fear I think a lot of athletes would have around, well, if I let go of this drive, how am I going to be motivated to train? How am I going to be motivated to get results? Because that's what's giving me the motivation, and I don't want to give that up. But just before we go there, I want to take a step back and, and ask What are we actually talking about here with insecurity? We talk about these things popping up that are driving people. What specifically are we referencing?

So let's use a bit of Yoda wisdom here. Yoda says, "Named must your fear be before banish it you can." I like Jordan Peterson, his wisdom, Rule 10 in his 12 Rules for Life is, "Be precise in your speech. Things that go unnamed become monsters that consume you." So when I have a conversation with people around fear and insecurity, and most people assume they know what they're talking about, but under gentle scrutiny, they have no idea what they're talking about. No one— once people realize they are being driven by some fear, no one actually knows what it is that they are afraid of. And so the, the most important thing is to define insecurity. What is it that we are talking about? Break it down to its smallest moving part. So, you know, when people start thinking about fear and they start being honest, then the honesty reveals there's always some kind of fear of failure. You know, I'm going to try hard at something and my best won't be enough, and then I'll be found out. Or I'm going to be in— I'm afraid of some kind of rejection. I'm going to put myself out there and my best won't be enough and people won't accept me, and so I'll be rejected by those I want to be liked and accepted by. And so that seems to be the core of it. I'm afraid of some kind of failure or rejection. But just thinking it, you know, as a problem-solving exercise, if you're afraid of failure, that's it. Well, the only way to never fail is don't try, so that, that can't be it. And if it's rejection, well, the only way to never be rejected is either obsess about pleasing every single person you meet for the rest of your life or talk to no one. You know, both of them are nonsense. So keep thinking clearly, and you go, no one's afraid of failing or being rejected. It's just the level underneath it. I— if I was to fail, what does that reveal about me? What do you now see? Yeah, now my inadequacies are on show. Now you see me. Same as rejection. No one's afraid of being rejected. It's the personal implications. If I was to be rejected, what do you now see is true? What can the world see? You see my flaw. You see my lack of value and worth. So all to say, insecurity is not the fear of what others think about us. Insecurity is the fear of our own worst opinion of ourselves being confirmed by the world, which is fun, right? Because it's just an opinion problem. And without exception, without exception, it's an opinion you formed about yourself before you were 7, almost invariably before you were 4. So you are actually most afraid of the worst childhood assumption you formed about yourself at a time when you didn't really know, you know, your head from your ass. You like, you, you're making shit up. So how in the world could that opinion have been accurate? And yet it's gone unreviewed all these years. You thought you were right, and so you've built a whole game so that no one sees the thing you think is wrong. But it's all, it's all a work of fiction. Yeah, this is the fun of it. Insecurity, it's a solvable problem because when you go back and have a look you see the misunderstanding and realize there is no evidence. You've lived like there's evidence and it's never there.

That's the hardest part is, is, you know, when you have these, these, if you will call them limiting beliefs or insecure beliefs, they feel so true, you know, and it's hard to break that thought pattern because you, at the core of it, you do believe it so much. So without like naming names or anything, could you give us an example or some stories about Um, I just want to get really clear on, on some specific insecurities or fears that come up that you address and, and how you start to even work through them.

Great. So, so I had a high performer, um, uh, CEO running a big company and, and earn a lot of money and really well respected in the industry, and yet found— finds himself paralyzed, finds himself procrastinating, finds himself lying to his business partner about jobs that he's done, and just cannot access this motivation and clarity in this weird space. Always been able to just get it done. Now it's like, why can't I get it done? Why can't I just make myself be better? It just notices this great weirdness inside himself. And, you know, I love that as an indicator from your own conscious to go, could we, um, could we have a conversation about some stuff? Would that be okay? Or are you just going to continue to drive everything and not listen? So, so anyway, he was willing to explore, not sure what he would find. But desperate. I got to get back to performing because this is costing me a fortune. And so, and you know, people ask me all the time, you know, you're a coach, surely, you know, we're forward-focused. Give me some strategies for confidence. Surely, you know, the past is the past, you can't change it. Surely we don't have to go back there, do we? And I say every time, oh no, I never take people back into the past. Oh, I mean, except where it's necessary, and it's always bloody necessary. So yeah, strap in, of course that's where we're going, because you formed your worst opinion about yourself as a kid. So for this guy, I think it was kindergarten or year 1, so 5 or 6, um, the first bit of graded work he'd done at school, the first assessment, and he thought he'd done okay. And, and he's come home proud as punch. He's shown it to his mum, she's praised him, and then he's having afternoon tea, like, watching telly, and he hears his dad come home and here's a conversation happening behind the door with mum and dad talking about his report or his test, whatever, and his dad's blown up and says, this kid's stupid. And so, so he's like thinking he's fine, thinking he's great. He hears his dad say those words and something changes inside of him. Now this is the fun of this review work, right? Because I would say every time I've gone on this journey with someone, they can point to words spoken to them or about them that they think has changed their life. And because they've got a vivid memory— no, no, no, you need to understand, when my dad said this, it changed my life. I, from that moment, just felt like, oh my God, I am stupid. And I've just always felt the need to prove that I'm not. And so it feels like there's nothing you can do about that. It happened the way that you remember. And yet, I don't know if you've ever read Don Miguel Ruiz's book The Four Agreements, but it's a stunning work. I love it. And he says Listen, you got to know one thing about structure and memory and insecurity. It's not the words spoken to you or about you that change your life. It's just the ones you agree with. So it turns out no one has the power to bless you or curse you without your permission. And it's stunning, right? Because it's just this misdirection. People think they know where the actions happen, but they're not. They're oblivious to where the action was really happening. And so, so what happened for this guy at 5? He heard those words from his dad, and in a split second he had to decide, is this true? And he, he thought, well, it must be because my dad is upset and embarrassed about me, so he knows more about the world. And so I've just discovered something about myself that I was oblivious to. I am stupid. That is true. And so in that split second, he's made an assessment about himself and then doubled down on it. So he hasn't, hasn't gone to trial, and he's had a defense attorney, and, you know, there's been due diligence. It's just accusation and conviction. You lock it in, Eddie, I am stupid. And so from that moment then, it's just like, well, I can't be me anymore because me is stupid, so I need to demonstrate that I'm not so that no one sees the truth that I know. And so then his whole world is about developing these personas to, to appear to be smart. So then he obsesses about reading and learning and answering questions and chooses paths where he can't get answers wrong and plays a very strategic game to always be seen to be right, always to be the one that has the answers. And so he built a business where he was the smartest person in the room. And as things have grown, he's brought on board brilliant minds. And so he's constantly in danger of someone being smarter than him. Which the moment that's proven to be true, his whole game is up and he's in chaos. And so there's this whole world falling apart, weakening his performance, destabilizing him at his core, and, and all based on this assumption, opinion formed, you know, when he brought home a report card at 5.

It's such an intriguing concept, isn't it? Uh, what you perceive about yourself can be directly related to what others you think perceive about you. So you make your mind up about, as an athlete, uh, people think that I'm average or below average or absolutely brilliant, uh, the top end. And so you take on that persona, don't you? You take on that, but, but you're making an assumption based on what other people are telling you about yourself, and, and you, and you will believe that for forever. Until you, until you get to a position with the example you're giving where almost like the game's up, you, you know, you're in a position where you can't, you can't have that persona anymore. So there's two things happening, isn't there? What you think about yourself and what others think about you. And you're basing a lot of it about what you think about yourself, about what others think about you.

It's, it's so subtle, but, but profound when you see the real structure of it. And when my kids were young, I used to do this magic trick for them. I had this rubber latex thumb and I could hide a red cloth up inside it. And you know, the art of magic is all misdirection. I'm telling this fanciful story and they're watching my left hand, you know, telling a story about making this cloth appear out of thin air, out of someone's red jumper, and then disappear into the floor. And they're just gobsmacked when the real action's happening over in my right hand with this fake thumb. But no one's watching my right hand. And so that's magic. It appears supernatural because you are caught up in the story rather than the action. And so this is so many people's dilemma. They're caught up in the story of what happened, who said what, how it felt, and they're missing the real structure of it. It's like, yeah, yeah, well, that happened, but the real action happened when you heard it. You had to make a decision. Is this true or not? Because You'd have to imagine, you know, from this client, um, his mum had said a whole bunch of positive things about him that day. So why didn't he agree with those words? You know, it's not the words, it's just the ones we agree with. He dismissed his mum. Oh, that's just what mum says. Mum say that, you know, blah blah blah. But dad, dad who I really want to approve of me and love me, his words mean more. So I'm placing more emphasis on that. That must be true. But just, you know, the real action— as soon as you see the real action, the magic is broken. You can understand what to do. Yeah, I can remember the day that I must have done this trick 100 times, and one day I was doing it for my son and his friends, and my daughter was behind me and she was watching me, not the trick. She's like, Dad, what is that thing on your right hand? And it's hideous, like it sticks out an inch too long, it's the wrong color. But I've got away with it all this time because no one's even looking. But as soon as she draws attention to what's actually happening, all the supernatural elements gone, all the magic's broken, and it's weird and strange. And so that's, that's the fun of this, when you go, oh my God, my whole life I've been caught up in the supernatural curse of these words spoken to me, and I believe them, and I kind of thought I couldn't do anything. When I break through it, I realized, no, no, they were, they were my words. I, I'm not an actor in the story, I'm the storyteller. I've had the pen the whole time. I was the one that signed off on that. So it is my own opinion of me. It's never been others' words. I always thought it was. I always thought it was others' words that are driving me, and it's been my own words. Wow. Well, then I could change my own words. I can't change other people's words, but I could change my words. And when I do, I could set myself free from this whole drama.

You started to touch on this before, but my question is You know, that kid went on to be a high-performing CEO, very successful in business. Yeah, you would argue those are all positive things, you know. And, and, and so what's the— how is it a problem?

You know, the problem is he can't access it anymore. He's, he's, he's built his thing so well that now smart people are joining him and he's no longer able to hide in the thing that he's built. And so he's in danger of being exposed because he's done so well and he's brought on brilliant people. And so this strategy of be smarter than anyone else so no one thinks you're dumb can no longer work. So it wasn't a problem until now. It is a problem now. That's not going to work. So this is how insecurity works. You build a space where you can win. Your performance convinces yourself and others you're fine until someone can outperform you, or till you watch your performance drop, or till there's a danger of your performance dropping. Then your whole strategy to prove and defend and run and hide and cover and compensate is in danger of falling apart, and your existential angst, the thing that you are most afraid of, is in danger of being exposed. There's no greater fear, there's no greater source of chaos for human beings than that.

So does it come down to the reason why we do things?

What do you mean, Gerard?

So if my whole, uh, mindset of myself is, um, that I want to be good at something, I want to be better at just if we use sport as the example, and people, like you said in your example for yourself, you're no good, you won't be any good. Um, so, so that's the driver, you know. The reason for me to, to do what I'm doing is an external one that I've heard from other people saying that I'm not that good, and I've taken on that persona. Yes, I'm no good, but I have to do something about it. So that's, that's the driver. Um, and so That's, that's the question is. So when, when that is no longer the driver and you're now in a situation where you're satisfied with your, with your running because you actually enjoy the running, uh, the running, the activity of running rather than the performing of running, but you're still performing, but you've got a better mindset, a better attitude about yourself because it's not driven by your concept of what others think about you. You're performing the way you want to perform. Under your own conditions. And, and that's kind of the biggest thing we see in our athletes is, um, if they've got the wrong reason, the wrong why for what they're doing, they're going to come unstuck eventually because it's unsustainable. That's kind of what I'm asking you. Um, yeah, forget, forget the reason why we're doing it. That's important, isn't it?

It really is. And if you zoom out a little and just look at, or you look at somebody else who you can see is clearly proving and defending, I'll show you. And you know, when you do achieve that podium or achieve that time, like, yes, this is the thing that someone said I couldn't, and you stand on that dais and you feel incredible, you kind of realize the person who told you you couldn't do it didn't really care anyway, or has forgotten they told you you couldn't do it. And it's such a short-lived bit of euphoria, and you go like, ah, wow, no one was really watching, no one cared. That's strange. So yeah, it's unsustainable and it's strange and it's dysfunctional. It works. Let's not say it doesn't work, but it could work better. And could it work with less chaos, with, with less collateral damage, um, in a way that looks more beautiful? And I, I'm sure it can. My own experience was I used to, I used to dread every training session. So it was always, I must train. I don't want to train, just get it done. Put the hay in the barn, you know, just, just fight your way forward so that you could get it. And just the destruction you do to yourself in the, in the process of that. You don't listen to your body. Injuries— I don't have time for injuries. You know, you're overtraining. It's just— and it works when you're young. The older you get, the less it works. But I just— one of the things that I found so joyful and so surprising was when I resolved this strange opinion of myself that I was only average at best. I wanted to be awesome, but there was nothing awesome in me, about me, that I was ordinary, I was vanilla, I was average, I was middle of the road. Like, that was the indictment I had on me. When I realized that that had never been true, that was a misunderstanding, that I in fact was delightful, I'd always been delightful, I wasn't trying to be delightful, I just always had been, it was just so stunning. And I observed my natural state in my my love of running and the joy that it gave me, and, and just the athletic nature of my body, that it— the machinery loves drawing in oxygen, turning food into fuel, and all of that fun. I set myself, um, an entry to another marathon, and, uh, the peace and performance, the combination— I didn't miss a single session. I woke up before my alarm every single time. I live in Goulburn, so there were training sessions all through winter So there was, you know, some -10 frosts, and, you know, I've set my alarm for 5 in the morning and I'm up at 4:55 with joy. Like, so, so I trained more sessions when at peace than I did forcing myself. I had more fun with the sessions and the joy of the experience. There was no fight. And so my performance increased. And, and even when it didn't, because training for a marathon is a strange thing, like, to actually achieve the goal everything has to be perfect on the day, and there are a bunch of things that are outside your control. So there were a couple of occasions where my drinks didn't arrive on, on, you know, checkpoints, or the weather was completely different than how I trained, or the gel that I had used affected my stomach in a way that I wasn't predicting, and, and my performance dropped off. And sure, there's disappointment in that, but I'm not really trying to prove anything. I'm I'm running because I love it, and I've loved the whole experience of training. I love being an athlete. I love seeing what my body's capable of, and I have permission to be fast and free. And so I've loved the whole experience, even the disappointment of reaching for something. And one of the things that was so meaningful to me and pops up as a memory is I, I had this long, you know, race debrief for one of my most important marathons that I was going for, and just and I was disappointed I hadn't achieved the goal, and I was slightly embarrassed that I'd set this goal and hadn't achieved it. And just the wave of love and care from the people who, who just love watching me be me, and they didn't care that I didn't achieve my goal, they just loved that I was doing something that, that was joyful for me. And it was just like, oh yeah, no, no one cares whether I achieve this goal or not, and I love the training experience and I love the race, and the disappointment belongs along with the adulation of victory. So how fun it is to be free to just enjoy my body and see what it can do.

That's a great answer. And look, I think we also define ourselves a lot by the actual end result, don't we? And that we think that means everything, but you've just explained beautifully how the journey, and we talk about this so casually in a lot of our podcasts that, you know, you've got to love the journey. Well, if you don't actually love the journey, how are you going to get up at 5 to 5 in the morning? You've got to have a love of what you're doing to enable you to go and do the training sessions. So the journey is equally as important to the end result. And as you said, you can only control the controllables that, you know, you can't, you can't understand that you get a dud gel or poor nutrition or you're missing nutrition or it's a crappy day, it's a headwind the whole time. They're things out of your control. And the thing that you should love about that is you, you overcome adversity, uh, on the day compared to— it could be a worse time, but you could have actually executed way better. And, and they're the things I think the listener should be taking out of what you're trying to say here, is it's just not always about the end result. It's, it's, you've got to, and that's why I was asking that question before, why are you doing this? And if you can resolve that question, you're going to have a better experience all around the whole thing, the whole journey that you're on, whether it's sport or business or family. You know, if you, if you hate the fact that your kids are going to wake up at 2 o'clock every morning, You're going to be the worst, grumpiest parent ever, but that's a fact that happens. So you have to be in tune with that and accept it. And that's part of your daily routine that that's going to happen. And how are you going to respond to that? They're the things that I'm really keen for you to push out to the athletes better than we can.

Yeah. One other thing too, which is a fun thought experiment and outside the realms of how most people think, but this is my daily experience with high performance. Is that I love the relational component of this. I love treating insecurity like a relationship with yourself. You have accused yourself of being bad, wrong, weak, stupid, ordinary, whatever, and then you've made a decision to try and not be you. So there's this breakdown in relationship with yourself. Now then, then you try and manage yourself from a place of mistrust. Now if you've ever been managed by, you know, by someone in a work situation someone doesn't trust you, someone's trying to get the best out of you by disciplining you, by riding you, by micromanaging you, by forcing you, the resentment that builds can be catastrophic. Like, people burn buildings down. Like, that ends badly. You, 20 years, 30 years of being managed by someone who doesn't trust you, that is not fun. So just to consider what it must feel like to manage yourself from a place of mistrust and to perpetrate this misunderstanding about your core nature and just to keep gaining more evidence that it's true. It ends in tears. And what I love to consider is the fact that your unconscious mind controls at least 90% of your function. So at some point, I watch the unconscious sabotage performance as a way of going, this is not fun and it's not fair and you're a crazy person and I resent the way that you mistrust me. And so watch this, pull this fuse out, pull this fuse out. Like, you want to perform? Well, you need me actually. And what— watch what happens when I rebel or why I revolt. So I watch high performers develop injuries and illness and strange health conditions and all this stuff. It's like, what? Why is this happening to my body? Why is my body not cooperating? And then they just further double down on this discipline or die approach and further manage themselves. I just think, what a, what a crazy strategy. Why not end the madness examine the structure of who you think you are and sort out this misunderstanding so that you could work with yourself rather than against yourself. It makes sense. You could achieve more pointing in the same direction than when parts of you are at war. That's, that's just basic logic.

That's the topic I wanted to explore next, because the way you describe that, that running with freedom experience versus running through forced discipline is, is just exactly what we, we talk about so often. We see we have such a range of athletes come in, and it's so obvious to us, the ones that come in guns blazing, you know, trying to— yeah, trying to prove something. And we're always trying— they're the athletes we're trying to pull back and just say, hey, let's just make this sustainable, because your mental attitude here and the way you're trying to train, you will burn out. And you're putting all of your eggs in this one race basket and, and squeezing so tight to get a result. And if you're doing all that and you fail, then you're not going to be in a good way, you know. And so we're trying to, to help these athletes just get more balance and, and have an A race goal and, and have something to work towards, but the outcome isn't going to define who you are. Um, the athletes that have— that train with more freedom, and because they, they want to do it and they, they love racing and they're working towards being the best version of themselves, find the training more sustainable and easy to follow. But my question on, on this next part is, you know, for, for a high performer listening who's going, okay, I have a feeling that I'm doing some of this, you know, I there's a part of me that has, has gotten me these results so far, but maybe I don't want to— I don't want to touch that. Exactly what you're talking about before. I don't want to— I don't want to start to address those unconscious thoughts or beliefs, um, that are driving me. That's a little bit scary because it's gotten me here, you know. And so I don't want to— I don't want to wreck that. I'm worried that if I start looking at this, A, it's going to be scary, or B, it's going to, um, stop me— stop me having the drive that's got me all these results so far. So, so what do you do with that?

Well, I think firstly, you just future pace that and find a metaphor that can work. So just say your marriage, I think marriage or your most significant relationship is the closest thing to a relationship with yourself. So there's some stuff going on with your wife or your husband and you know it's there and you don't want to address it. Well, at some point that comes to a head, at some point that makes the relationship untenable and it doesn't end well. So like, for me, when I was unwilling to address this, I didn't want to, I was afraid, my unconscious went, well, it's so short-sighted of you and so unfair. And so for me, I— my piriformis muscle— I don't know whether this sounds strange or not, but this is my experience of it— my piriformis muscle locked on, grabbed my sciatic nerve so badly that I couldn't run for 6 months. Such was the sciatic pain down my left leg. And I thought, I need dry needling and massage and physio and nothing I did worked. So my unconscious is like, yeah, you're a crazy person and I don't want to do it like this. So, so good luck continuing with this even if you don't want to. I don't really care if you don't want to. Please, can we have this conversation? Could we sort this out? So I think that's the first thing to consider. No one wants to go and have a look at this stuff. Not a single person wants to wade into the mess of their past. Never ever. And if you could avoid it, you would, by all means. So, um, you know, Carl Jung described this as the shadow. Stuff happens in our past, we don't know what to do with it, so we put it in the shadow to kind of go, I don't know, hopefully it'll just go away. It doesn't go away, it just stays there and then comes out dysfunctionally. So if you just look at human beings as a species and just treat yourself as part of the collective, okay, no one wants to have a look in the shadow, but it doesn't work out if you you don't. So, and, and the fun of it is your unconscious can have some leverage, can play some tricks to increase your readiness and motivation. I loved that my unconscious took running off the table because I love running so much. It's like, all right, you don't want to play ball? Well then, watch this. I can stop you running, and I'm not your enemy, by the way. I just would love to have a conversation. So, um, yeah, so I think that's the first thing. Um, yeah, a second thing, like I, as I said, I used to be on a mission, and I heard myself say that out loud one time, and I nearly vomited because I'm like, oh no, no one wants to hear someone preach at them. You got to sort your shit out, you need to do this. Like, no you don't. I know you don't. Most people won't. Most people will just, ah well, this is as good as it gets, and they'll just fight and force and slowly descend into madness. So don't let me tell you have to sort this out. And it's, it's rare and hard, but I, I just think about, hang on, it seems to me that that would— I couldn't imagine a single person getting to the end of their life being glad that they didn't resolve the worst story they thought was true about themselves. Especially if you get to the end and you go, oh, look at that, that was all unnecessary, that was never true, that's a shame. So I think, yeah, then sure, you're scared, but you don't need to be scared. It's just, it's become a monster because you haven't examined it. It's not actually a monster. It's never a monster. Every day I have people go, 'Jamin, I've never told anyone this thing. I've never thought about this for 30 years or 40 years or 50 years. There's this stuff.' I'm like, 'Great, well, let's treat it like data and go have a look.' And they're always so terrified. And I'm like, 'Is that it? That's the thing? Um, anything else back there? Like, where is this monster? Where is this evidence that you are objectively stupid or objectively— where, where is it? You've been living as though it's there and running and hiding from this your whole life. Can you show it to me? Can you point to it? You know, where are these weapons of mass destruction? Which warehouse are they in? Like, are they there or are they not? So, you know, just a bit of clean thinking, a bit of objective thinking, taking yourself, your unique version, out of the story and going, this is universal, everyone has this, you know, no one gets to 7 without implicating themselves of some imagined crime. Not a single human survives their childhood without developing limiting beliefs. And that's not the tragedy. The tragedy is that adults don't know it's their job to go back and review the data and set themselves free, and so don't— so often don't.

And so the first step is to be willing to have that conversation and start addressing it. And you said it shows up as, as fear of failure or rejection. What are some of the other true specific fears that, that come up that you have with, with your coaching clients?

Well, the fun of it is they're all variations on a theme. So they're all indictments of inadequacy. So they're all, they're all some kind of not enough— not good enough, not smart enough, not strong enough, not pretty enough, not valuable enough. So there's, there's no real variation. And, and so some people kind of have higher level versions of this. Like, I'm afraid, um, that I'm, you know, that I'm a lazy person. I had a client recently and that was— they should— they were sure that was their worst opinion. I'm like, just tell me the scenario. And, and their defining moment was playing with their Lego at 4 or 5. Dad comes in and is so upset at them because Dad asked them to do chores and here they are wasting time playing Lego. And that says, you are you are such a lazy such-and-such. And you— and so in the culture of that world, lazy was actually the worst word you could use to describe someone. Like, the Protestant work ethic— you are defined by your contribution. If you're not contributing, you are stealing, you are a thief, you are worse than bad. Like, you are taking people, you are taking from the world, you are an evil person, you are, you are bad, you are actually bad. And so So lazy thought was the fear. I'm lazy. No, no. What kind of person is lazy? Well, a bad person, a dangerous person, a person who hurts other people, who makes other people's lives worse. So that's the real indictment, the real inadequacy, the real crime that they've convinced themselves. So there's, there's never any variations on it. It's just, uh, you know, all around those same themes of inadequacy. And you know, this, this is the human condition. We want to be good, uh, we want to be seen as good and think others think we're good. We're just afraid that we're not. If laid bare, there'd be some evidence of not being good. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. And for fear of actually verifying that, people run or they hide or they prove or they defend. So you want to solve it? Yeah, it starts with, well, what if you were to go have a look instead? What does the data actually say?

And so once you've named it Well, you figure out what it is. What happens next? How do you review it, dismantle it, work through it?

So it's very structured and very predictable. So name it and then realize you created it. So practice one is step into the light, tell the truth, name your fear. Practice two is understand not only are you— so not take responsibility, but realize you've always been responsible. You know, you've always had the pattern your whole life. You thought you felt this because of what was done to you or said to you. That's not true. Not the words spoken to you or about you, just the ones you agreed with. And that's not to blame yourself, it's just to see where did the action actually take place. Break through the magic. And then confronting but brilliantly empowering, because, huh, if I did this, well then sure, I'm the villain, but I'm also the hero. As soon as I'm ready, I could go back and change my mind. That's, that's essential. There's no other way outside of that responsibility. Sometimes people name the fear and then they get further stuck. They're like, yeah, I am afraid that I'm worthless, and here's why. Here's what people have said to me and done to me my whole life. It's true. And now I've named it, I'm even more scared about it because now I can see it. So you've got to, you've got to keep going. Name it and then see who created it, uh, and you're on your way.

And, and yeah, when that resistance pops up, I'm sure, you know, what does resistance look like in real time, you know? And I'm sure a lot of stuff pops up for when we have to face that. And, and yeah, for anyone that's been through any sort of therapeutic process like that, it's, it does get confronting, you know? How does that show up and how do you move them through it?

Yeah, it does show up. I had a client today, so they're in week 2 of a process, and they named the thing And much to their shock, the moment in time where they first decided this was true popped up. And they were convinced they didn't remember their childhood. This memory wasn't there. They'd told this story that they'd had a great childhood. And so that— I love that. Like, I just love the fact that these are precise moments in time stored so pristinely with all the emotion, all the color, all the sound, because your whole life pivoted off these moments. They're there, you just don't want to see them. So, so, so, wait till he saw the actual thing he said was wrong and the moment he said it. And so what happens is that this is simple and hard, not complicated and unique. So almost invariably a person becomes shocked. They're like, hang on a minute, you're telling me the door's locked from the inside, not from the outside? Like, you're telling me I, I could change this? It's as simple as an opinion. Look up opinion in the dictionary. It's the lowest form of knowing anything. It's the flakiest form of knowing there is. So therefore it must be the easiest thing to change. And so it's this resistance like, oh, hang on, I only know how to be this guy. I know I only know how to be the disciplined performer attaching my identity to this endeavor. I don't know how to be anyone else. So I'm very nervous. Not that I can't change, but I'm nervous that I could change right now and what would that change mean? So yeah, there's a whole dance around what freedom would feel like and what's on the other side. And you know, Gerard, your point before, I know how to get the best out of myself is by fighting myself. I don't know what would happen if I dropped this motivator. So invariably resistance shows up and it's part of the process.

Uh, is that, is that ability when we do have the key to change and we're quite reluctant to change, that's just a human trait, isn't it? We, we like, we like the, we like to know what's ahead, the routine. We love that. Um, but if we have the ability now that we've unlocked the door, but we still have this fear factor of change, what, what do, what do we, what do we fear? What's, what's happening here?

Yeah, it is. You're totally right. We, we love the certainty, the familiar, the safe, knowing the comfortable, better the devil you know than the one you don't. People stay in dysfunctional situations because they're familiar. So the only, the only way that I have breakthrough this resistance is just to keep the light on. I go, just remember, this only survives by not looking at it. That's the only way this works. Fear unexamined grows. Fear examined diminishes. Because every time you look at it, you just see a scared kindergartner. Like making shit up, and you feel sorry for him. And then you realize he's been locked out in the cold for 30 years while you've been confirming the bias he formed then. You're like, oh, this is madness, and I'm doing this to me. So yeah, sure, it's a bit scary to change, but worse still would be to leave this kid suffering under this false accusation that just doesn't seem like he could have any evidence. I got to go back. I got to go back. I gotta sort this out. So that's what overrides. And, you know, practice 3 and 4 in the 7 Essential Practices for Overcoming Insecurity— practice 3 is to stack the pain. So, you know, this is an inconvenient endeavor, and nobody goes back and restores and reviews the past except from a place of pain. Like, you don't dismantle systems that are working. It's just when things stop working where you go, oh my goodness, like I have a reason to examine something that I previously was shut off to. And yes, I'm scared, but worse, I'm honest and sober and this gets worse for me. So I must. That the pain of inaction is greater than the pain of action. So that's the only way anyone does it. Does it. Most people need more pain to change than they do to staying the same. But when you do an accurate audit, what is the cost of unresolved insecurity in your life? And you tell the truth about it, you're like, oh my goodness, this is catastrophic. And so then you go, my house is on fire. Ah, so yeah, sure, I'm a bit nervous about stepping out and having a look at there, but it's, it's now less pain than staying here. And then you're on your way. Like, that's pain. It's your most loving and honest voice. It's designed to protect you from further pain. Most ignore their pain. But it just kind of misses the point of what it's there for in the first place.

Yeah, that's easy to say, isn't it? Look, I'm being— there's something holding me back here and I can't identify it, but now you've given them the identification of what it is, and yet you're still reluctant to, to do something about it. Um, and that's where, that's where you, you really have that guidance of, uh, it's okay, it's okay to go outside the door when the house is burning down, because if you don't, you're going to actually continue to perish in inside the burning house as the example you're using. And, and I think that's the thing is, you know, if you stay doing the same thing and expect a different result, that's actually a definition of insanity, isn't it? You're, you're not going to get the, the changes that you want. And, and I think as an athlete that, that could be so true because you've been doing something for 20 years as an athlete and you aren't improving, or you've been in business where you know, you're just still making the same money, you're not getting ahead, you just think, oh, it's, it's easier to do this than to change, to change my tack, because there's too much risk with change. Well, you know, at the moment, the risk is that you're going to stay the same athlete or the same businessman or the same partner. And that's the thing that I'm loving about this conversation is we're all feeling the same thing, but we, we don't actually address it to ourselves and I've had those experiences myself and, and I've just had to be, you know, go, well, this isn't working. What have I got to lose here? Uh, let's try something different here. And I know that that's worked with a lot of athletes that we've coached is, you know, you're reaching out for help when they reach out to join us. And I'm asking them, you know, why you think we can do something better than you're already doing yourself? Well, The answer to them is I've come to a point of stagnation. I'm not improving. I'm not improving my performance. There must be some other magic pill. Well, it is a magic pill, but it's just doing something different, you know, looking at what you're doing currently. And that's kind of a simplistic way of what you've explained. But, but at the end of the day, they're the things that we want to hear you talk about now is, you know, how do you unlock that change? How do you get brave and, and go about changing things that, you know, you've been doing for 30 years.

Brave is an important word, but it's only how to start the journey. So people overestimate the value of courage. You do require courage to have a look in files that have been shut for a long time. But when you, when you understand, if you think about the metaphor of, you know, a scared kid locked out in the cold, accused of a crime they didn't commit, it's not really courage to go and have that conversation. It's, it's actually kindness. When you really understand what this whole thing is. Like, if you were to walk out of your office today and see a kid crying in a bus stop alone, it's not really courage to go up and see if they're okay in Elton. You're compelled by kindness. So yeah, I think people overestimate, they build it up how scary it is. But when you go and have a look and you see what really is going on, yeah, courage to start. It is courage to start. No other way of describing it. But kindness takes over. And that's a beautiful thought. And yes, pain, like telling the truth around pain is very important. And Tony Robbins describes this beautifully. He calls it the pressure cooker strategy. So you tell the truth around massive pain, massive pain creates massive motivation, massive motivation creates massive action, leads to massive change, leads to incredible improvement in results. Improvement in results diminishes pain, which diminishes motivation, diminishes action, and therefore change. And 6 months later, you're back to where you were. So he says stacking the pain is only half the equation. Yeah, yeah, tell the truth about what's not working, what you don't like. But hang on, what do you want instead? Like, what's— what are you moving towards? What's the real desire? What, you know, when you think about your life and you think about what this is all about, what's most important to you? Getting to the end of your life? What is a life well lived? So tell the truth around desire. And, and desire is a stronger motivator than pain even. It's, it's a more long-lasting, more sustainable, more beautiful motivator. And so you will need pain, but you will need desire as well. And those things together, you know, all right, okay, um, I'm in the game. And, and I'm, and I'm in the game until I come out the other side restoring this relationship, rather than just a short, you know, just do enough to get out of pain and then run away again.

I, I'm loving this chat for the same reason, you know. You— and it's why we brought you on— where you're really just pulling back the curtain on, on stuff that's happening for everyone. And we're all— we all have our fears, we all have our insecurities, and, and this conversation doesn't happen enough. And, and the analogy I, I love about, um, thinking about change is, is the story of the dog on the deck and, and these Um, two people are just looking at this dog sitting on a deck and it's, it's whimpering. And one guy says to the owner, why is it, why is your dog whimpering? And he says, oh, because he's sitting on a nail sticking out of the deck. And he said, well, why doesn't he move? And he said, oh, it mustn't, mustn't hurt enough yet, you know. And that's kind of what you were talking about before. But I, I want to know, what's your message around, you know, people waiting for it to be too painful to get to that breaking point before they change? Now that, that of course is going to happen then, but that's necessarily the healthiest way to go about it. You know, we all have these insecurities. What's, what's your thought process around not waiting until it's so painful that it's breaking down your life?

You know, well, the best example around this is smoking cigarettes. So just because something is killing you does not mean you have to pay attention to the fact that it's killing you. That's how you smoke cigarettes. There's enough research to say it's not good for your health, and if you keep doing it, the likelihood of you inducing death increases dramatically. But you just don't pay attention to that. Like, you pay attention to the social comfort you get, the escape from your pressure, the way it makes you feel. So you can't focus on everything, and what you focus on determines what you get and what you miss. So there is enough pain. There is more than enough pain there, especially if you're in midlife. Insecurity is actually ruining things.

There's—

there is no other way of thinking about it. And so it's not like you have to wait for things to get bad enough. They're already bad enough. They've been bad enough for a long time. All you would have to do is just look at it and tell the truth. And so that's how anyone quits smoking. They just look at it, they go, hang on a minute, hang on, hang on, my teeth are getting yellow, my fingers are yellow, I can't walk up these stairs. They look at their children and think, I might not be around to see these kids graduate. Or they, they look at their bank account and they actually tell the truth around how much money they're sinking into cigarettes. Or they notice they can't smell like they used to, food isn't tasting good. Like, they just tell the truth around what's already there, and they go, this is shit. Like, this is— and when, as soon as you link something to pain, everything inside you naturally wants to avoid pain. So you give yourself an advantage. So as soon as you tell the truth around what it's like using all your best energy to prove and defend yourself, and just the madness of that, you're like, it's a distaste in your mouth. Yeah, this, this ain't it. Like, this is whatever's involved in change. I, I can't keep doing this. So yeah, there's already enough pain. You don't have to wait for any more. The, the challenge is just to tell the truth. So that's often my message, is just to, just to take people outside themselves for a minute and just, just have a look at this. Have a look at this thing you haven't been paying attention to, and that, um, just, just notice and see how it feels.

So one of the things I've heard you say that I, I really like is is this notion of when addressing this, you need to get help from someone who doesn't care about you, which, which sounds super counterintuitive, but I love the way you describe it. So can you talk about, to us, about what that, that idea means?

It is counterintuitive, but it's essential because, um, in order to address this, you have to be able to see what's going on. And, you know, awareness is essential. What are the moving parts? What are the structures? What are the things in your past that are actually creating these, this pain. But you can't do judgment and awareness at the same time. So that's a really essential idea. And you'll get this, you'll get this idea by thinking about the people who love you and care about you. If someone who cares about you comes to you and says, how you going today? Because, because of their love for you, you kind of realize there's a right answer and a wrong answer to that question. You understand that to actually tell them the truth may implicate yourself, may upset them, may create a raft of problems for you. And so you don't really tell truth to very many people, and you really don't tell truth to yourself because of your own sense of judgment and the fear of what the truth might reveal about you. So there's a whole bunch of pretense that stops a person actually seeing what's true. And if you can't see it, you can't change it. So, so I go, no, no, we have to treat this like data. And the only way we can do that is in a clean space. And so my very first job, when I get the privilege of being invited into someone's world as the forensic scientist or the structural engineer to have a look at this, is to convince them I don't give a shit about them. And it's so much fun because I know I look like a guy who gives a shit. And so— and I'm actually not a sociopath, I'm very emotionally intelligent, I'm kind and caring. I just would never dare bring that into the conversation. Because the moment I get invested, I become dangerous. If it's about me encouraging you, cheering you on, believing you, then you can please me and disappoint me. So then your truth might mean I withhold my affection or approval from you. And so to be able to see this, it has to be safe. And the only thing that makes it dangerous is, is judgment— someone else's judgment and your own judgment. So you have to create a clean space. And the only way to do that is find someone who knows the way without getting in the way. Someone who, when you look in their eyes and hear their voice, they're certain this is a solvable problem, but you're also certain they don't need to solve this for you. So they're not there to rescue you. They can handle the truth. Whatever you reveal doesn't change anything because they don't need anything from you in the first place. As soon as you create that clean space, like, it, it never ceases to amaze clients how quickly they say things they never thought they were going to say. And, and how surprised at how safe it was, and, and how wonderful it is to be able to say things you've never said before and for it not to ruin you. So it's essential. You're talking about existential angst. You're talking about the thing you least want to talk about, the thing that has the most charge and energy and fear inside you, therefore the most dangerous idea you have about yourself. It's always too costly to even hear yourself say that out loud, let alone involve someone else in there. So yeah, that the essential nature of finding someone who can handle the truth, and the only way they can handle the truth is if they don't need anything from you.

And so you set that frame, and you mentioned earlier that, you know, at the start trying to reveal that truth, there might be some resistance. You know, what does that look like, and, and, and how do you move someone through that resistance in, in real time?

Yeah, it's so rare because everyone wants something from you or for you, so talk's cheap. So I say that and straight away someone's got to pressure test that. They're like, I don't know if that's possible. Like, surely— well, first of all, they're like, it sounds really rude and wrong that they think they need someone to care about them. And it's, it's based on the misunderstanding of what insecurity is. People assume I'm insecure because of all the bad words that were spoken to me by unkind people.

People.

So to fix this, I need good words spoken by kind people. So go find me a safe, supportive, caring, kind, empathetic human who can understand my suffering and hold my hand and make me feel okay. Those people get in the way and they perpetuate the misdirection. So I just go, hey, look, no one's coming to save you, right? You did this to you, and only you can change it. So when you're ready, if you're ready, um, yeah, I'll hold you in a safe space. And I, I use the metaphor of a cast. You know, if you break a bone and you go to the surgeon and get it set properly and a cast on it, you understand the action of the healing. Like, how is that healing happening? Does the surgeon heal you? Does the cast heal you? Does the doctor heal you? What happens? Now, you heal you. Your body has inbuilt capacity to repair damaged tissue, bone cells. It It does it. It just has to be held still. So I just say, that's who I am. I'll just hold you still. I'll hold you still. You'll tell me sad stories, I won't cry. You'll show up resistance, I won't believe you. I'll— I won't let you escape. You've asked me to help you solve a problem, and until you really tell me to piss off, I'll treat you seriously. And I'll go, oh sure, I know how to solve this problem. Let me hold you still. Let me hold you still. Your problem's not complicated and unique. You're not special. Here is a process. The only way out of fear is in the process. So trust the process, take your medicine, and come out the other side whole and healed.

Do you have an example of, you know, someone right there with you who just— who just, uh, this happens in all form of coaching, especially, um, in, in athlete coaching as well— just go, oh, actually I'm not ready for this, you know, I thought I was but I'm not, I, I kind of want to pull out of this. They start the process but not— do you What's your approach to that?

No one ever says it that cleanly to me. They give me the bullshit version of that. So I had a client pull out last year. It doesn't happen very often. If someone gets past month 1, then they're ruined. Like, where are they going? It's too late. But if they're going to escape, they escape in the month 1. So a guy escaped last year and he complained that I was walking my dog while talking to him on the phone. And so I wasn't showing up. And I said, listen, like, to be honest, I've got enough coaching skill in my little finger to solve this problem. I could do this while scrolling Facebook or being half asleep. Like, this is not as complicated as you think it is. This is the thing I've devoted my whole life to do. The problem was not me with my dog. The problem was you were scared and wanted to run away. You just needed to blame me. He didn't agree with that narrative, but, but that was the only logic that was happening. And so no one just goes, I'm scared, can I run away? They're like, no, no, no, this is more, no, you don't understand me. No, no, you haven't treated me seriously. No, you've let me down. Um, because it's scary, right? And it's, it's hard. So I just, I just deal with that upstream. Like I do have a high barrier to entry. I, I doubt people's readiness for change before they've started rather than after they've started. Let's go. You sure? Like, this is a journey into pain and fear. Are you sure you're done with this? Are you sure you're enough pain? Like, I don't need to rescue you, so don't let me twist your arm. Sure, I can help, but just so you know, this gets hard. Um, so, so I think because of those upstream conversations, when a person comes in, they're like, all right, great, then I won't buy into any of the bullshit, and I'll just keep speaking to the part of you that actually knows you're ready. And, and keep examining the fear and deconstructing it because it's not real. So you're okay, yeah, you're okay, you're all right. And because I'm non-negotiable about smoking what I'm selling, um, people do find certainty in my eyes and in my voice. They, they pressure test me all the time. They want to know, have I solved this for me, or am I just guessing and making it up when it gets hard? They want to know if I'm wavering, if like, if they can pull out some story or some excuse that I've never heard of before. They go, oh gee, uh, yeah, sorry, I didn't realize you're you're really messed up. So when they can't find that, then they just settle down and trust the process and we carry on.

You mentioned, uh, you know, getting through month 1, uh, for those that don't know, you have a 6-month program. Can you give an example of what someone looks like, you know, at month 1 versus month 6? You know, what actually shifts? You know, what's happening in the process?

Um, so as I mentioned, week 2, all the lights come on and it's to everyone's, not my surprise, but their surprise. So the data is revealed very early on. And then week 3 or 4, they pretend they didn't hear what they just heard because they're like, can we keep going deeper? Like, no, no, we went as deep as it was. It's just the implication of the depth that's just scared you. And so then we continue to stack the pain and build a case around what they want instead and continue to do reconnaissance around what is this fear and is it true? It's just the gift of doubt. You've built this world, you've confirmed your own assumptions, you kept gathering evidence because that's what you believe was true. But none of it is real and it's costing you a fortune. So just weakening their resistance. And, you know, in many ways it's the hero's journey. You know, the hero encounters the wisdom character, they face trials and tribulations, but they're on a journey toward the cave. The treasure they seek is in the caves that they fear. So about week 7, 6 or 7, they're at the cave. We've had all the conversations, all the intelligent review, Everything has been said, all the logic is laid out, and there they are face to face with the thing, the worst thing they ever decided was true. And there's only one obvious thing, and they— it's, it's the hero's dilemma. Every hero is faced with the thing that they're about to do, the thing they think they can't, but they also realize it's the thing they must, and that no one's coming to save them, and they're the hero. So where are they going? And they realize that they can't go home So it's a horrible experience. They realize, I'm going into this cave and I'm either going to die or I'm going to come out the other side reborn. They're the only two options, but I'm going into this cave and it's a horrible experience, uh, and yet— and they do. And then they go and face the thing and review the data and deconstruct it completely and realize it's never been there and then repair the damage. Of betrayal, years of betrayal, thoroughly apologize, take responsibility to rebuild trust. So, so by month 2, so the end of 8 weeks, the, the deepest change has happened. The, the, the accusation has been reviewed, the case has been quashed, they have removed it completely, and now, now they are free. So I like to think about it like a scale. It's like they've been at -10, or they've been running so far away from themselves, or their drive has been proven to fend. So now they've come all the way back to zero. They're home. They've discovered who they really are all along. So now they're a bit like a newborn giraffe, you know, finding their own— they're all arms and legs, you know, and they've got to pressure test this in the real world, in their relationships, in their workplace, in their health. And so, um, The next 4 months is around fine-tuning and application and pressure testing and, you know, building muscle and embedding these new stories so that they're an adult in the real world. So that's typically the process, that the deep change happens in— happens deep, happens fast, and by 2 months, and then it's all the fine-tuning application. That's consistently what happens.

And so I know that, uh, you have mentioned before, you know, people might circle around this work for years or even approach you but then pull back and do that dance for a while before they finally become ready. You know, what do you think is the difference between someone who's ready to do the work and someone that's not?

Well, I think it's just ready to be ready, as strange as that sounds. Like, it always will feel impossible and no one ever— if someone goes, well, actually I had a client recently who goes, right, I'm so ready for this. I'm going to set the world record for the quickest person to go through your process. That's how ready I am. I'm like, oh no, this is going to be the hardest client I work with. They have overestimated their readiness. So real readiness is going, oh man, I, I want to be ready and I think I'm ready. I don't know I'm ready, but I'm also really scared. And this is— I do know this is going to be hard. So I want— I am ready and I want to be ready and I'm also scared. Like, that's kind of as good as it gets. That to me is enough. Yeah, that, that, that—

all right.

Because if you think about the hero's journey, the hero never really knows what they're saying yes to before they say yes. If they did, they wouldn't— they wouldn't say yes. They just, for whatever reason, the call to adventure, they go, you know what, now is the time and I'm ready enough. To go in this. So that's how it is.

There has to be an underlying feel, uh, feeling of I've had enough of this and I want to do something about it. That has to— and we, we have new people applying to our, to our coaching business and they've already been coached and, and there's this something that clicks that says, no, I need to change something. And I think that's what you're alluding to, isn't it? There's It's going to be some point in your journey, in your life where you're just going, no, I've actually had enough. I'm going to take it. For someone to put pen to paper and send an email to us to say they're going to apply, that's the first step, isn't it? That's, and I always say to them when I actually meet them, hey, congratulations for applying because that would have been so difficult because that's admitting you're doing something wrong and you need to change it.

Oh, it's a big deal. And I said, you're right, it's the hardest step, and it's pain-driven. You know, no one rings me, and like you, they don't ring us because things are awesome. You know, they ring us because something's broken, and it's hard to admit something's broken. But you're right, like, until you, until you were here, then you can't get there. Most people, they don't want to be here, and they're pretending they're not here. But yeah, you're right. Here, I'm here, and I don't like you. Great. Well, now you're telling the truth. Something can be done. It's a painful place to be, but it's an essential starting point.

I've loved this, I've loved this conversation, and I love the, uh, I love your own story about the difference in your own marathon journey, for example. And, and we see it all the time, and, and you've articulated just our lived experience with athletes where the athlete that turns up on race day driven from, I'm gonna just using generalizations, driven from some sort of fear of inadequacy, or, and they've trained the whole way there driven from that negative approach and that driving from pain, the pressure they're feeling on the start line is immense because everything boils down to that. Whereas the athlete that gets there because they love to push their bodies and they love racing on race day, they love the experience of seeing what their body's capable of and, and the work they've done. You know, they might have done the exact same training program, these two athletes, but their experience on the day is gonna be wildly different.

Ah, it's, it's breathtaking what's possible. And it's just as simply working against yourself or working with yourself. It's It's just surely the logic says it is more efficient. Performance must increase if everything is in the same direction. Performance, the friction of having parts at war, the resistance, you can only sustain that when you have energy to waste. And that is a young person's advantage. That midlife, you do not have energy to waste. This is about optimizing and being smarter.

And it applies. We, we're here as a, as a podcast that's encouraging athletes to be the best version of themselves. But if you, and we always talk about you need a balance with, with your training, your regime of fitting your training in around your work and your family. And we talk about that balance and people think that, you know, it's just a statement you say, but it, you know, if you can resolve your, yourself, everything in your world will be a better experience. Your business, your family relationships, your whatever chosen sport you're doing on, or chosen activity that you do in your life. It's, it's so good that it can be transferred across everything that you do in your particular time of your life. And I think that's, that's the thing that we're trying to get across here. The reason we want to have those conversations is because we can make it— your life can be so much better than it is. If, if you're honest with yourself and, and true to yourself. I think that's a really key point, isn't it? And I mean, the message you're trying to get across—

well, yeah, to move, to move more broad than just athletics. Firstly, I think this is how the world gets healed, one person at a time, with courage and kindness, to go back and review the strange limiting beliefs, disempowering narratives they've held against themselves, and to set themselves free. They show up in the world very different different. They have something to give. Their eyes change. Their heart softens. It's a beautiful thing to behold. But secondly, I think the impact of a secure person in the world is dramatic, and their ability to give and receive love is not to be underestimated. If you are insecure, then you want love and you're always trying to perform to get it. But even when it comes into your world, you mistrust and you cling to it and want more of it because you don't think you deserve it. So every performance thing, strategy to get love, even when it works, it works for a moment. But if you've resolved these inadequacies, these fear of inadequacies with yourself, and you deeply love and accept yourself, you're actually now able to give and receive love to those in your world— your friends, your family, your children, your partner— and it's real. And so that, like, that in itself, you know, broader than athletics, to be able to give and receive love like that, that does make everything better. That is, um, yeah, that's the real performance enhancer.

I think most people listening will recognize something in themselves about, about what you're talking about. And I, I think I just want you to, you know, what's, what's the message that you're trying to, for lack of a better word, preach? And I know that you said earlier that you're not here to preach anything to anyone, but But yeah, I think every human being will have some sort of universal experience around this, you know. What's, what's the message you're trying to say for, for all of us that, that start to recognize that in ourselves?

Um, sure. So I don't know if you've read Matthew Perry's autobiography, uh, the Friends star. That sat on top of my most recommended reading list for 12 months. I just said everyone's got to read this. It's also the single worst book I've ever read. And the most pain I've endured for some time. It's, it's horrific. And because, you know, it's one thing to hear a sad story from a person who's come out the other side and made peace, it's another thing entirely to hear someone tell a sad story while they're still, still sad about it. And worse still, to have been given the whole world in the process. So, and the reason why I bring this up is because it's just, it's so unnecessary. It's unnecessary suffering to get caught in misdirection. That's, that's the point. So Matthew Perry tells a sad story about the words spoken to him, the things happened to him as a child that ruined his life. And not just ruined his childhood, he carried that and, and resisted and proven defend for the whole life, and it didn't end well. He didn't ever find a way out of that, and he thought the tragedy of his life was his childhood. That's a misunderstanding. No one escapes their childhood without getting lost and confused and wounded in the process. No one makes it to 7, not a single— even perfect parents don't protect their children from assuming there's some inadequacy with them, and nor would you want to even if you could. So if you can kind of realize that's not the tragedy, that's just the setup. The tragedy is that adults don't know it's their, their most important job to bring their best adult skills to bear on themselves and to go rescue themselves themselves from their worst assumptions as a child. So that's the, that's the real tragedy, that adults miss the whole point in the game and leave these opinions to become concrete realities that lock them out of real life. So, so my message is just, um, just have a think about it. Just like, I, I love Jordan Peterson's definition of thinking: the purpose of thinking is so that you do not die. We all have stupid ideas. If you don't think about them, you'll act them out in the world and it'll go bad for you. Think. Yeah, think. It's not as hard as it appears. Think. Turn the light on. Have a look. Use your intelligence to just scrutinize some of the things you've not examined, and you might be surprised at the misunderstandings you uncover. And insecurity is only ever a misunderstanding. There is no actual reason to assume the worst about yourself. It's all, it's all made up. And so that's a long way to answer the question, but it's never as bad as you think is, is the point of what I'm saying.

I like it. It's probably not as relevant, but I did want to ask, you have touched on the, the childhood ages, you know, 7 or 4 or whatever. Um, I just want to clarify, surely they're like kind of metaphorical hurdles, uh, that's why you use them? Is there a reason that you, you say those points specifically?

I mean, childhood generally, generally Yeah, they are metaphorical. I, I just think if you examine the generalization, not to, you know, typically before there's a high level of consciousness and the child's very innocent, every child has an awareness, a basic instinctive awareness that they are of value and worth, and they're not in any kind of transactional performance mode yet. They're not cleaning the kitchen, they're not doing dishes, they don't do chores, they don't have a part-time job, they don't have to perform or achieve. They just— they exist. And every time they have a problem, they assume it's okay to demand someone comes running, and people do. And so every human starts out relaxed and at ease. I'm enough, not because of my performance, just because of my existence. But then being a conscious being is problematic because, like, I got a Labrador. She loves going for a walk, and she's very happy if I walk her. And she's very sad if I don't walk her. She doesn't look into her water bowl and look into her mirror and think, is it me? Am I a bad dog? I was a better dog, would I get more walk? She just goes, I'm sad, and then I'm happy, and then I'm sad again. But, but humans don't have that luxury. We're sense makers, we're storytellers, and so we experience our disappointment, our embarrassment, our hurt, and we personalize it. We gotta Why did this happen and what does it mean about me? So like, by the time you're 7, there's enough consciousness and you've had enough painful moments to make sense of that you couldn't possibly have put a positive spin on all of them. Like, even if you dodged a whole bunch of things, there will be some innocuous moment of embarrassment where you thought, oh my goodness, that was me, I'm sure that was me. So yeah, that's That's the generalized pattern.

Brilliant. Well, Jamin, where can people take the next step with you if they want to explore this? Where can they go? What, and then what's the process? What's the next step?

Yeah, I'm quite easy to find. My parents have given me a unique name, if you can work out how to spell it. So my website is jaminfraser.com. We've put together something that's relevant to this podcast, forward slash Trivelo on my website. Right, so that's, uh, yeah, just as a way of resourcing athletes, peak performers, to think about this in a way that's relevant to them. But yeah, you find me, Damon Fraser, on the socials, or I'm not hard to find. Go, go Google insecurity, and I'd be surprised if I didn't show up there somewhere.

That's brilliant. We've absolutely loved your work. We love this conversation. It's, it's so worth exploring, and we're really, uh, happy that you came on because it's such a necessary topic. And we say necessary because Yeah, yeah, Dad and I talk so much on the podcast about the overall wellbeing and health of an athlete, and, and, and we're specialized in the, in the training side of it. But there's, there's all this other element of it that's, that's what you do off the track as well and, and outside of races that we know are just important. And you've really highlighted that today. So thank you so much for coming on, and we really appreciate it.

Oh, thanks for having me. That was a very enjoyable conversation.

That's it for this episode. As you said, you can find him and the next steps at jamonfraser.com. .com/trivelo. So Jaemin is J-A-E-M-I-N Fraser, F-R-A-Z-E-A, uh, Z-E-R Fraser.com/trivelo. The link will be in the description anyway. Thank you very much for listening. We hope you got value out of it like we did, and we'll see you in the next episode.