Will Walker: Why Australia’s Next Cadel Evans Retired From Cycling

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Trivello Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined, as always, by your host, former Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly. And I am Jordan Donnelly, A man with a VO2 max on par with the likes of the world's best cyclists and touted as Australia's next Cadell Evans. Why did Will Walker retire from the sport so early? We are absolutely privileged to have Will Walker on the podcast today with an incredible start to his professional cycling career. Results at 2018-23 years old that looked like he was going to be one of the world's best cyclists. Will Walker abruptly retired from the sport of cycling with a heart condition. By the time he was 21, he'd already won the under 23 men's road race at the Australian Nationals. Ahead of the elite men, no less. He'd won silver in the Under 23 Men's World Championship Road Race at 19, and he's ridden two Grand Tours. But the heavy workload took its toll on his body. At 21, Will developed mononucleosis and Bell's palsy and had also been diagnosed with a cardiac arrhythmia known as tachycardia, a condition in which the heart beats faster than it normally should, all while pumping less blood around the body. The condition saw Will retire from the Sport in early 2009, but in early 2012 made a return. That's what we wanted to talk to Will about today, and we had a pretty epic discussion with him. What he had to say throughout the whole podcast was absolutely phenomenal, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was really great to talk to someone who's seemingly done everything in cycling, yet is still only 35 years of age and has been retired, you know, since 2014, seven years ago. And, you know, winning the National Road Race at the age of 18 and winning the Melbourne to Warnable second at the World Road Race Championships. You know, he's, he's been a rider for Rabobank. You know, he's been a pro rider in the peloton for four or five years before he had some, you know, really bad health, medical conditions that cut short a phenomenal career. Know Max VO2 of 94, there's so many things that Will had going for him, and yet his career ended so quickly. And, and that's one of the things that, you know, the listeners would can, you know, you just got to live for each day and make the most of every day. Because you just don't know what's going to happen next. You know, at 18, winning the world, winning the Australian Road Race Championships against, you know, the likes of Robbie McEwen, who have been on the World Pro Tour, you know, for years, he had the world at his feet. And yet, you know, look what happens six years later. You know, it's.

It's.

It's a great example. And he's not bitter about any of that.

He's.

He's so grounded. He's gone on to do a medical career, a medical course where he's almost qualified as a doctor, and, you know, how to. How to make the best out of every situation. This is a. This is the best example I've ever interviewed. And, And I'm really wrapped to have him on. On our program and, and send his message, which is just phenomenal.

And we start his story off on the podcast with the Nationals road race in 2014, where he made a comeback with his first team back on the pro circuit. He was in a early breakaway of 17 riders in that race, but it was in the breakaway that we started to feel telltale signs of tachycardia. And we'll let Will tell the story from here. So without further ado, here is the podcast with Will Walker. All right, Will, we want to give you a big welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for jumping on. And I want to start by asking you straight away about the day that you retired from professional cycling. What happened in that Nationals road race where all the reports say that your heart rate got to a whopping 270 beats per minute and you were forced onto the side of the road. Can you explain to us that epic story and how that's possible?

Thanks very much for the intro, Jordan. Yeah, well, I actually see myself as having two retirements, really. So the one that you were talking about, I think, was in 2014, in January at the Nationals. But before that, I, you know, in my mind, I'd retired at 2009 and only then made a comeback three years later, you know, with a smaller team called Drapac. So going to the 2012 incident, sorry, 2014 at the nationals, I was in the breakaway. I was doing pretty well. I had retired, and I was known to have some arrhythmias or predisposition to having cardiac arrhythmias on the bike. And up to that point, most of the time, they were mostly asymptomatic, meaning that I. I'd feel that something was going on in my heart, and we could trace it on an ECG, but they, you know, were only sustained for 10 or 20 seconds, and then they'd go away. And on this instance, I'd actually was in the breakaway at the Nationals, I'd had a couple of those feelings, and I decided to just almost pull out for the day. But then I was. As I was going back, I realized that if I, you know, go from the main. Sorry, from the breakaway, and I'd pull out before the Palatine even catches me. That will look a bit weird. So I was literally just drifting back to the peloton up the hill, and I felt my heart go again. So I pulled off to the side of the road and I actually stayed in a sustained ventricular arrhythmia. So that's where the normal conduction system of the heart, it's not really working anymore, and it's replaced by this conduction electrical conductive loop that causes the ventricles to beat really, really quickly and often results in reduced cardiac output, feelings of impending death, and. And sometimes even death. And. And that was me at the nationals in 2014. And I was probably lucky enough that my heart was quite big at that stage and well trained, so it could sustain an irregular rhythm. And. And the ambulance got to me and, you know, within, you know, I think probably 15 minutes, half an hour or so, I was cardio inverted. So that's the scene in the movies where they put the pads on you brought back to a normal rhythm, and that was that. So I was pretty. There was no other decision but to retire on that day. So I'd literally gone from, you know, retiring in 2019 from the high level of world tour, making a smaller comeback, probably doing it with more realistic aims and wanting to get back to study and make some better choices and look after my body, to then quickly realizing that, you know, this. This has gone from something that was, you know, short and potentially controllable to something that's way out of my league and I'm just lucky to be alive. And a swift retirement, an easy decision.

I suppose, when it's that obvious, isn't it, when you're in your death.

But.

But you would have had some similar experiences, you know, from 2008, 2009, or your first retirement. Did you have something similar happen to you that put you in retirement in the first place? Was it something similar that occurred?

I think from the outside, it looks like it was something similar. In reality, you know, I had one of those, I'm sure those Epstein Barr virus type, you know, symptoms or, you know, Actual viruses for a while, and I just couldn't get on top of that. So I was, you know, coming up through the under 23 ranks. I was as strong as anybody or one of the strongest, moving straight into the World Tour. Did the Vuelta when I was 19, got through that. But I really tried to do anything, not go in any breakaways, really, you know, take it easy through it. Six months later, I did the Giro. And after I did the Giro, I started falling apart. I got super skinny, probably. There was a lot of over training. I wanted to get better. You know, the pro level at that time was pretty high for obvious reasons. And in some instances, you just. You wanted to train more and more to try and get there. And I just. My body started to crumble, and that was a little bit the Epstein Barr virus. And it just meant that when I had those weeks where I didn't have any goals, I literally just went from, you know, having a threshold of 360 watts or 6 watts a kilo to probably 4 watts a kilo within a couple of days. And you just. Yeah, so that was probably the main factor in the first retirement. I had had some arrhythmias with my heart. A sensible me would have just stayed retired for good. But, you know, we're all athletes. I think if any athletes are watching this, you know, that the reason for having a coach, even when you know what to do, is that when you're too close to yourself, you don't actually make the right decision. You constantly. Doesn't matter how much you learn, you coach yourself or take your own advice, you start to make more decisions in cycling or in any sport, I think.

So.

I probably made a few of those being young and, you know, cycling at that stage was all I knew and was what I was good at. So my. My comeback really 2012 was about. After three years, not feeling comfortable in the normal world, was really about doing something that I was good at again.

And it's so, so true. And those three years, the interlude, what did you get up to in that period to keep your mind because you've been so intensely involved in cycling at the best level in the world. What did you do in those three years?

I did a few things. I did a. My older brother, who's a builder and property developer now, we did the first two projects together. I started an import business. I had a couple of jobs. I even got a job setting up or working with the Green Edge team before they started in 2014. So never short of things to do. I was Pretty busy. I was probably busier than I am now and getting close to doing some really good things, but kind of just falling short all the time and felt like some of those jobs, even at green edges, green age, which would have been a major opportunity for anybody. For me, it felt like sometimes I wanted to be there, sometimes it wasn't enough to be fulfilling. I'm not, I'm not even sure I haven't reflected too much on it, but I did stay busy. But doing all of those different things just made me realize how good I was at one thing before and how not so good I was at many other things after that.

It was that the driving reason to make the comeback that you sort of had unfinished, you know, career that you wanted to continue or was your. Was your goal set different to what it was when you were, you know, 2006 to 2009 where you were, you.

Know, right at the top level?

Yeah, yeah. Look at the time I didn't think my goal set was so different. I think it wasn't. I think it was to really settle down and I had the opportunity through Michael Drapak and we spoke about it. I'll make a comeback and do uni at the same time. So I did a full time finance degree while I was making my comeback. But you know, realistically now as a 35 year old and watching guys older than me still racing, it's pretty crazy to think that because I'd had a three year retirement, I felt old when I was 26 making a comeback. It's, it's pretty baffling right now because I'm nine years older than that again. But I did feel like somewhere in the back of my mind that it wasn't too possible. I still went to a world tour camp with Liquid Gas. Yes. It was just as good as the average rider there. I definitely wasn't as good as I was when I was younger and that's probably a little bit. I just, my body couldn't quite get as skinny as it used to be and I don't think I really wanted to do anything drastic to do that either. So there was a change in mindset. Looking back on it now, if I. Probably forgetting the fact that if I did have a hypothetical good heart and I had that chance again, it would have been better to go back with somebody to guide me through it. You know that you bounce ideas off and talk about training camps and where to improve. But I largely did it mostly with my own stubborn mind going forwards.

Yeah. And you didn't have Much help or assistance from any outside coaches along that way. Or was it.

You know, with the days when I was younger, I had Dave Sanders as a coach, but then when I was 19, Raba Bank, I made it. The best decision I made was to get Aldo Sassi as my coach. And because I had good testing and VO2 max, he was pretty willing to take on a young Aussie kid. He was amazing.

I have to interrupt you here for those who are listening. Your VO2 is probably one of the highest recorded from any athlete in the world at 94. And is that correct? It is 94 wheels, yes.

Look, to be honest, I forget the numbers. No, I don't really forget the numbers. They've been around there.

We've got some world class athletes like Armstrong and the like who are lower numbers than that. And look, every, every day, Joe cyclist.

Is around 40 to 50.

So, you know, you can just imagine the engine you must have. Did you realize that at a, at a early age that you had an ability to sustain really good exercise output? Even as a, as a junior, as a, as a young kid growing up at school, did you, did you have that feeling that you had extra special physiology?

Everybody talks about, you know, VO2 as if you, you just rock up on a bike without training and it's high. I think that's gotta be the biggest misnomer ever. And vented because, you know, when I was in primary school and high school, I remember this one kid, he was a good triathlete too, Monty Frankish. We went to school together and he was so much faster, so much stronger on a bike without training than I ever was. But then I got to 16 and, you know, I finally caught up and grew a little bit and got, became a bit more of a man. And I must admit, you know, then I, I thought, oh, I wonder how, you know, you're meant to train. And I just invented training programs up in Bride of doing various different climbs and I like pushing myself. And I'd come back from two weeks in bright and I'd just be looking at people and just thinking, why are you even hurting right now? And it just never even dawned on me that people just used to get so puffed uphill. I just think you guys just sound like you're about to have a heart attack. Yeah, and that was probably where I started to realize that my, you know, aerobic capacities were quite a lot higher than everybody. And that used to be. Yeah, it was pretty evident. I mean, when I was in high school in year 12, I did the Bay Crits, and I still wasn't a good enough cyclist to figure out that I should be there, let alone how to get to the front of the peloton. But by day four on the bay Crits, I was, you know, know, good enough to ride away from McEwen and everybody and win pretty much solo. So, yeah, look, you do start to realize pretty quickly when you've got a higher ability to sustain that power that other people don't. It's quite fun.

Yeah, can imagine.

Yeah. I wanted to ask on that note, I mean.

Do you.

There's so much to unpack here, but one, and we will get into this now you are in Utoros, just off air that you're in your final year of your med degree. So this is why you are so articulate with your own condition and a lot of these concepts. But with a bo2 max of 94 or somewhere around that area, have you been able to do any testing on yourself in the last eight years or so since retirement, or seen anyone else with similar aerobic capacity or physiology to you that's given you any more understanding with gas to sports science and your own body's capabilities?

Yeah, I guess there's two questions there. I have done a VO2 max for a heart study a year ago, but I have a very good cardiologist that was right there next to me, and we got to a talking pace and I was still comfortable and we stopped it just because there's really no point giving my heart any chance to do anything crazy ever again. So I don't think I'll ever be able to do a VO2 max test again. I hope right now I'll never do a bike race again or any type of competition. But I. I don't know. I really just hope I won't. And then the other question is physiology. I mean, you know, what does it take to be a good athlete? And the. The old answer is choose your parents wisely. And that's really it. I think cycling in the past, you know, from the pool, it was a pretty small pool, and they all became pros. So to me, as much as it seemed to be difficult to turn pro in the past, I don't think you needed to have the right genetic makeup. A lot of the people coming through now are starting to be from maybe a slightly bigger pool, but I think the motor's the motor. But on the flip side, if you aren't genetically blessed, I think you could probably achieve anything in sport if you really wanted to anyway, with the right work.

Ethic.

And the right training. I don't think the motor is the be all and end all and not in cycling as well. Even though it's probably the sport that needs the motor as much as country skiing and cross country running. There's also a lot of tactics involved and if, you know, a sprint can still get you a lot of victories. So, you know, somebody with a VO2 max that's only at 65 could probably still race World Tour. They might just have some pretty tough days on the bike in some of those stage races.

That's amazing. You say that.

Yeah, I think it's a great point for our listeners because, you know, we do talk a lot in our coaching business about. It's all very well, you know, to have a great physiology, but bike racing is not won generally by the fittest rider. It's won by the fittest plus the smartest. And, and there's been so many examples of a person who is less capable than someone who has all the correct medical data and will beat them week in, week out just on pure tactic. And now some cycling, which I think is really underestimated. People think that I can't beat that person because They've got a VO2 of X and I've got this. But that's not what cycling is predominantly about, is it? I mean, from your experience, there's so many examples you have had, even at the pro level.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of thought just to stop you and say, well, maybe on a hill data matters, but then it doesn't either. I mean, you know, Simon Clark's always talked about as that example. The numbers are actually getting pretty good later in his career. But there's probably some local guys that, I mean, they've probably got questionable power ratings as well, let's be honest. But they've got some massive numbers. But you wouldn't put a cent on them for going up against one of these guys on a hill in a proper race. And then you've got actually flat terrain, the undulating terrain with 1km climbs, navigating the field, the psychology of being overseas, working hard day in, day out, rain. I mean, it's so much more complex than that. And I think people are probably too caught up on numbers these days. I mean, you definitely want your numbers there day to day. And I was probably one of the first guys in the pro peloton to start with a power meter used for daily training, but it's really so much more complex than that. And you put a good head on shoulders and you could take away 1 watt per kilo and still beat somebody pretty easily, I think, with the right mentality.

I love what. Yeah, I love what you've said about. Yeah. Fact that your, your VO2 and your biology isn't everything. Although it helps. We've spoken a little bit on the podcast before about the fact that dad and I actually have the exact same VO2 max. Quite interesting as a father son, we've done multiple tests and yeah, have recorded the exact same. Yet he still smashes me on the bike, which is frustrating and I think that's where it's, it's above the shoulders. But in terms of your own physiology as a junior going straight into the Vuelta and the Giro, do you have any thoughts now, in hindsight about the fact that because you could push so hard, your body was pushed too hard at a young age?

Yeah, I think that's probably about it. And for the last 10 years, this train of thought would have been that I got pushed too hard, too young, and it was probably more my mental capacity that was the thing that pushed me. I mean, I just love training. I mean, even still, I joke with my brothers and think, oh, today I want to go to 100k, you know, get some strength efforts in. And I mean, I'd love to just get out right now and smash it, but, you know, that's, that's, I think, born in me to push myself. You know, if my body could have taken three times the amount of training, I probably would have just lived on the bike and that would have been great. And I don't know what my point is. What was the original question?

Well, yes, we pushed you hard as a young athlete.

Yeah. So. Oh, yeah, that's it. And, and I guess the advice would be to younger riders. I mean, let your body grow. Yeah. Make sure you have a multi sport approach to growing up. Don't dedicate anything too young. Make sure you study well and be smart and be a good person. And then you've got these young kids that are 21 now and they're winning Tour de France's, so I don't know, I have to sit on the fence with that. I mean, if you want to be really good young and you just want one goal in life, you know, no plan B. And somebody came to me and said, can you coach me? No plan B. I just want to win the Tour de France and I want to win it right now. And super young. I guess as a coach, your job would be to make sure they make the right decisions by not burning the candle at both ends, getting good recovery, looking after themselves, not training injured, you know, trying to avoid getting sick, doing all of the right things. And then if they still keep progressing and that's good and just you, you know, probably then as well, starting to keep an eye on the medical as well. Maybe getting an ECG on an echo once every year, make sure there's nothing going on there. Keep looking at all the blood tests. I mean, taking a more holistic approach. And I think we're going to see a whole generation of young kids coming forward and being really, really strong and they're developing earlier as well. So I don't know, I think looking back at it, there's probably just an element of the fact that I was genetically predisposed to having some type of heart arrhythmia. And you know, if we look at as a positive thing, mine came about in cycling where there were people know about it with ECGs, where I could get medical help straight away. And there are other unfortunate people that, you know, encounter this when they're on a park by themselves and they end up passing away, you know, at a young age because of an arrhythmia.

So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really interesting discussion and we have quite a few younger, younger riders in our, in our coaching business. And, and as a coach, I'm really adamant that. And I've seen many, I mean, you know, Jordan's been at school with one particular rider who's gone on to be, you know, in the pro ranks and a plan A and a plan B, probably not there, but. And, and I'm a real big believer in making sure that you've got a balanced life. And if you're athletic abilities come through year in, year out, then if you've got a backup plan, you know, what, what do you do when you turn 34 and your cycling career is finished? You actually have to have another plan. And, you know, there's so many examples of really talented bike riders at 16, 15, winning state titles and national titles who aren't riding their bike at 22. And I just think that's such a shame. You know, it's just being pushed too soon to, you know, too much too soon and they, they lose the passion of what they loved at the start, which was, you know, riding your bike fast in the wind and with your mates and, and that's the side that we are trying to push to make it enjoyable first. And if you really have a passion for it, you will succeed at Your goals anyway? Is that something you would, in hindsight now be advocating to, to a young Will Walker who's, who's, you know, 18 and just won the national road title as under 23 and beaten all of, you know, the best riders in Australia?

Yeah, I was pretty stubborn when I was a kid, I think. So, I mean, you, you can only try as much as you can, but if you had to just map it out in the ideal world, it would have been, I probably just didn't. If I was never introduced to a high training load, I wouldn't have known about it. So that would have been probably a good first point. If I was in a culture where school work was also, you know, normal, that would have been ideal as well. But you know, in cycling in those days, it was a lot of kids that had dropped out of school early as well. So I was not in the right environment to think that trying hard in year 12 was a pretty good idea. So I think for sure, going through, you know, in the, in the perfect world, you would make sure you give yourself an idea of a Plan B or at least keep your mind open for what a Plan B might look at. But doing well in school, but learning about lots of different things because then the journey of cycling is more enjoyable anyway. Because I think one of the hardest things about elite sport is that when you do have a shit race and, you know, we've all had it, when you come second and you should have won, it was because you started the sprint too later and you're in the wrong position or did the wrong gear or. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I still wake up at night thinking about races and some of them aren't even big races. I just think, what, why did that wake me up at night sweating? That's strange. Yeah, but when I, when I was coming back with my finance degree, you know, I thought, oh, well, I've got to wake up and just do an assignment or do some schoolwork. And that was a nicer way to definitely be doing a comeback rather than having a sole focus on elite cycling. So I think definitely the balance growing up, you know, having a coaching, a coach that's, you know, listens, cares, encourages you to think about a plan B do. Schoolwork is probably going to be more beneficial long term for your cycling. And it's pretty much the way that the European culture is set up anyway because they don't have to make as big sacrifices to turn pro. A lot of them are doing university degrees during their under 23 days. A lot of them are trying really hard in year 12 and not doing massive kilometers like the young Aussie kids.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, what you guys preach is probably the right, definitely the right thing by the sounds of things. Whether or not young kids of today listen is another thing, but I guess you can only try.

I want to ask you about things you touched on there. There's going to be a few questions in this and we can go through them one by one if necessary, but life after cycling the second time. So you just mentioned before that you'd love to go on a hundred K ride and go smash yourself. And there is a bit of an itch there to race one day, although you hope you don't. Um, after cycling the second time, how did you get better at it, knowing that you weren't going to go back to cycling? Um, and how do you scratch that itch of, you know, as athletes you just want to train and you want to train hard and you, I'm assuming you just can't now, you can't put your heart through any sort of stress. So how do you find that somewhere else?

Yeah, well, I think probably the best realization is that maybe you just can't scratch that itch.

So.

I mean, you know, maybe you can saying that I probably could have just decided at 34, my heart doesn't work. Or actually it was 2012, so still 27 on our 2014. 28. But let's say maybe just become a pro golfer and then I can just. It probably would work better for me. I could play all day long, body doesn't get tired. That didn't come into my mind. And, you know, maybe one day I'll regret not just trying something else. But I think over the years I've probably just realized that, you know, nothing might ever replace the adrenaline you get from pro sport. And that's why, you know, anybody that retires early, that still hasn't chance to keep racing, or it's not for them because they want to just get a normal job. I can't understand it. Because elite sport, living overseas, the adrenaline of competition, of training, of pushing your body, I mean, nothing's ever going to get close to that. And I think I'm probably not trying to replace that anymore. And I can't replace it with, with sport either. I can do something that's similar like, you know, learning how to surf, getting better at golf, still bike riding, playing tennis, you know, all with a lowered heart rate, but I'm not trying to replace exactly what I lost and now with medicine, I think medicine's, it's different again. It's known as a massive challenge. Academically, it was difficult to get into, but it's a different pathway again. I mean, in terms of the competition, it, so far, it's really not up to, you know, it doesn't compare to that, you know, high competition of cycling. I mean, it's, it kind of feels more like you're getting on the peloton and it's one of those easy days in the Giro where you cruise along and you wonder, what?

What?

Yeah, well, they can't. But sometimes, you know, it feels like you're on that big peloton ride where you're touching your brakes more than the pedals and. Sorry, that's, that's unfair. In medicine, it's not really like that. It's, it's just not, you know, you've got all of the people around you. It's definitely different to slogging yourself on cycling where you, you know, it's, it's raining and you've got to do a six hour training ride and you think, oh, how am I going to get through this? I'll just do three. And then after three you're like, well, I'll just make sure it's four. And then after four you say, oh, stuff, and I'll just do six. And you get through it. You find the mental strength, you break it up. So, you know, and I miss that too. I mean, that, you know, that feeling of getting in and you sit on the shower floor and you're just too exhausted to take off your bike shorts and you, you really, the only thing that's getting you out of the shower is when the water's going to turn cold. They're good. Yeah, they're really good. That reminds you now, it's, that seems to happen now a little bit. Just because I'm so unfit, I'll just do a 30k biker and feel the same.

That actually reminds me, a question I always wanted to ask is, you know, all the races you did in, in Europe, it didn't seem like you were that happy to go along on the calls. Is that something you steered away from in your career and, and that sort of event didn't suit you? Is that, is that what was in your mind? That, you know, I'm going to stick with races that I think I've got better chance in, and the cobbles were not that?

Yeah, that's a good, a good point. I think that's probably the most important thing with you know, managing your ambitions in sport is to have a realistic impression of what you can achieve and then being strategic in how you're going to do that and what you're going to target. And overall, I probably wasn't that great at that. You know, Simon Garrons is a much better example of figuring out what he was, you know, trying to go gc, realized that it really wasn't the BN and all that. The end, you know, going to be the best bet for him. You know, coming 10th overall in, you know, Grand Tour or 10th in Paris wasn't up for him. So he changed his track and started going for what he knew he could have, a chance at winning. And so I guess one of my only good decisions was probably not doing the cobbles, because I was. I was a little lightweight guy, you know, 60 kilos. I just. Cobbles didn't feel right underneath me and they probably were never going to. So I think you leave that for the guys that can do it. Well, and.

Yeah, and look, there are a lot of highlights in your career. I know we're jumping around a bit from what you're doing now presently and how you're concentrating on it, but some of the, some of the real standout things that you remember looking back and it's always, you know, it is good to. To know that you actually did achieve some really outstanding performances. And one of the iconic races in Australia is the Melbourne to Warnie, which you're a winner of. Was that an achievement that sits high in your list of successes or is it just mediocre or.

Yeah.

I don't mean to degrade the event, but I'm just interested in your opinion of a race like that. And maybe the Heralds Tour some historical local races. And we know you've done many of the big tours in Europe, some of.

The toughest races in the world, but.

Is there any sort of feeling towards the Australian race, races that are really dear to you, that you're really happy you've won?

Yeah. C grade Tour of Bright in 2001.

Awesome. That is fantastic.

Yeah, that was. That was probably my favorite win.

Did that finish up Mount Buffalo, Australia?

It did. It finished up Mount Buffalo. I got. I reckon I. I got beaten up Mount Buffalo, actually.

It's still.

Why is that your favorite?

Because you're a. I don't know, it was just, you know, when I was 13 or 14, I started going up to Bright. My grandparents lived in Bright, you know, so it was an important race for me and probably the kind of the start of me becoming half decent, you know, I finally got a new bike and the new bike was not broken in the front end so I could sprint as well. And I won the first stage. I was first over to Wonga, then 40 guys caught me and then I won the bunch sprint anyway, so. I don't know. Secret Tour of Bride. My grandpa was there at the finishing line. Tour of Ride's just such a good event. I mean you just. Where else would you rather be? The other ones, the Bakeritz is massive. Warrnambool is obviously pretty important as well. And that was in a big long day and big build up to that as well.

Did you do many of those? That's a very historic Victorian event, isn't it?

Yeah, I did a couple. I won the last stage of one of them when I was super young and I was 18. Yeah, that was in a sprint. And then. Yeah, and then the last Herald sun two hour road. I think I got fifth overall. I was probably close to being the strongest but a breakaway went early on on stage one and yeah, a few people around, no one chased and the four guys stayed away and I got fifth overall. Really by the time it all came down to it. Yeah, that's a. That's a really good stage race to do the subtour. So.

Yeah, and. And some of the other events like the under 23 road race where you got the. In the world titles, where you got the silver medal.

Is that one of the highlights for.

You to be on the world stage as an under 23?

Yeah, definitely. That was. I just finished the Tour de la Veneer where I was I think sixth overall. And that was an under 25 race but with World Tour teams, guys like Brad Wiggins were in it and so that was pretty good. And then I went straight from there to, to the Worlds where I came second. So I guess I was. It was expected that I do pretty well there. Yeah. But that one was probably one of my better tactics. I just stayed last wheel all day and didn't really pretend I was in the race. And then on the last lap you attack up the hill and it was by the one smashed it.

He was away, wasn't he?

Yeah, he was away by a mile. He. He's had a sad story. He ended up having a cardiac arrhythmia and passing away. So not a good podium for.

Two out of three. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

So you've touched on advice for young people in terms of what maybe what you think you'd say to get More balance. Although you say yourself you'd probably be too stubborn to take it back then because you're so competitive. What do you say for the age grouper cyclists, the master cyclist, who probably needs to remember that balance as well, because we all. Yeah, we're all competitive. Yeah.

And A, don't take yourself too seriously because that's stressful and that's not good. Yeah. B, I mean, people spend way too much time at coffee shops. That's just absolutely baffling to me, because you're not getting better at a coffee shop. I don't care what you're thinking about, but. And if you're going to do a coffee shop ride, I mean, do it with. It's social, so that, that's good social support and great for friendships. But maybe before the ride, not when you're wet and gonna get a cold or virus, and definitely not in between the ride as a park up brew stop for an hour and 45 minutes, you know, with a hamburger.

You're speaking.

So they're two things. Yeah, I just, I. I don't really do Bruce stops like that. Just because I remember, you know, the one thing I was lucky to have in my career was Aldo Sassy, who was probably the most famous coach in the world. He was the head coach of the MAP A team, and Coach Cadell and all of these guys. And he started doing some work with the Aussies and he just called me one time and just said, I can't believe how much they spent three days out in the World Road Champs. And they're in the coffee shop 45 minutes. And he was beside himself. So there's that. And then I think the third thing is, is that you. Most people are working full time, and I admire anybody that's training pretty significantly with doing that. So I think the one thing that you've got to be sure to be doing is to be regular every day. So if you always get up early, then you probably, probably always got to get up early and train, and then you've got to go to bed early as well. So that, you know, 5am training doesn't feel like it's to get up for, because if you're waiting particularly early and your body's not on and your power, you're probably better off recuperating. So it's finding that balance between, you know, thinking you're a staffer, getting up early, and actually giving your body the rest to make sure you can do the adequate training. I think the other thing is when there's only A small window to train that you think about doing it wisely as well. So if it's raining one day then you know, and you meant to be doing an Ergo the next day, then maybe you should be wise enough to be able to swap that around so that you can do the Ergo on the day and use the sun for the day that you've got to do your road case just because, you know, I think everybody knows if you do, you know, in winter time you're training in the wet, your power's down, nothing works as quite as well. You a little bit less motivated and the average power or TSS score is going to be down. So I think being flexible like that and I think the other thing is, the one thing I have noticed over the few years is it looks like people are starting to look at that TSS score and average heart rates and average power in rides as well. And that seems to be trending upwards, which is really good because if you've only got 10 hours work on the bike, there's, there's really no point sitting in a bunch at 30k an hour on Beach Road doing 28k an hour because that's just going to make you get slower, I think. So I think overall it's about, you know, then picking your goals and working towards your goals. If you're 80 kilos, don't try and winter or bright. Well, somebody at 80 kilos probably has done that so. But you get my drift. Work towards your strength. If it's time trialing, focus on that. Make sure your weaknesses aren't too much of an Achilles heel. Ride hard when you can. Reorganize your training to suit yourself and to suit your health. Look after yourself by sleeping well, eating well, avoid any fads as well, they're never good for anybody. And make sure you've got the right people around you to help with your goals.

Couldn't have asked.

About.

Could have asked for a more perfect answer. I think you summarized our entire Travelo motto in about five minutes then. And our last, I don't know, 10 or 15 podcasts worth of topics you've just, you've just nailed on the head. So that's really good. I have a couple of questions finished and I'm sure dad, you have something as well. Your best lesson from your coach that you were ever taught. Like you said, one of the best coaches in the world. What's the best lesson you got?

That's a tough one. He got angry at me for playing tennis once and it was with his son, which I thought I was just being a nice guy, playing tennis with his son. I got in trouble. I don't think you're allowed to do too much. If you really want to be good at cycling, you have to focus on cycling. That was his motto. I'm not sure I believe in that totally. So I'm not going to 100% give you that one just yet. Hold on, let me try and think. I think it's about being regular. That's probably his best motto. Don't be extreme.

Right.

At the same time every day, sleep at the same time, wake up at the same time. Time, you know, eat a normal amount of food that's really healthy, get extra calories. That's not a normal person on your bike ride. His was about just making sure it was never something massive or something that writes you off or a new fat diet or doing anything crazy. It's just be regular.

Such a good answer, Will. And look, anything extreme, we've got the motto it's unsustainable. And, and it is in life. And doesn't matter if you're on the bike or whether you're at work, you know, doing a medical degree, if you go extreme, you lose. You lose the thought process anyway. You need to get up and walk around and clear your head. There's so many good examples of, of extreme activity is unsustainable. Whether you're trying to lose weight, you know, in one week instead of six months, or trying to become a better bike rider in three weeks instead of a year. It's the same story every time. My question at the end would be, do you still have the passion to ride your bike? And it's always intrigued me when I talk to guys have been at the top of their game and do they still love riding their bike? Not in a competitive way. I mean, just going outside in the hills on a beautiful day with the sun shining on your back, does that still. Do you gravitate to that still?

I. I'm a, I'm a big fan of a, of a bike ride. Yeah, I love it. I, I mean, last weekend it was a good sunny day, so I rent, went from left ho out Mount Pleasant Road, then eventually met to St. Andrews and have this zigzaggy way of going along the least Cresty Hill through First Bridge and places like that. So that got me 80km and that's about as much as I get before I get too tired and I just do it by myself and thoroughly enjoy all of it.

That's fantastic.

If I clock 150k a week. I think probably about where I'm at on average at the moment.

I'm so glad to hear you're still riding and you have the passion and it is a shame a lot of the time where you see some guys.

Who have been, you know, I think.

About her values as an example. You know, Australia's greatest 1500 meter runner of all time won 220 races in a row. Won the Olympic gold medal in Tokyo in 1960 by 1015 meters. Never ran another 1500 after that race. Was 20 something years of age, had the world at his feet. And it always intrigued me when I, you know I always look at successful athletes and what are they doing? Are they still running, are they still riding? If they're soccer players, do they still kick around the park? You know it's always an intriguing question. It's great that you still have the passion and that's probably why you were successful anyway because A, you loved doing.

Bike riding and that's great to hear that.

Yeah. One more of those examples of people who will succeed because they love doing, doing what they do and if you are really talented at something you still don't like doing it, you're probably not going to be as successful anyway.

Yeah, it's 100%. You've got to choose something that you want to do every day because even how good success is if you're not enjoying the process it's not really a fun journey to look back on anyway. I'm sure there's a lot of athletes they might get to the top but if you didn't enjoy anything you're probably not going to be that fond of a gold medal anyway.

Yep.

Whereas I get to look back on my sea grade tour of bright as pretty bloody good victory and one of my favorites. I still got the yellow jersey up there in my grandparents house.

That probably rates up there with the Warrigal Cycling Club C grade Club championships that I took seven years.

Oh they're huge and they really are and I think, I think the lesson that we get from that is that as much as it's you know, say I want to be up there and I want to do this and I want to do that, look what's right in front of you and just you know, if you're in C grade and you want coaching, get coaching and just try and win C grade and you'll have just as much fun and you know you still got to attack, you still got to read everybody's body language, you still Got to look at the parkours, you've got to understand your own characteristics, you've got to feel your own body, you've got to think about, you know, how your nutrition's going, where's the best place to attack. Or do I wait for a sprint? Do I, do I pretend I'm blown and sit on the, on his wheel for the last K and come out with 250 to go? Do I wait till 50 meters to go or do I, you know, do nothing and then hit him with 600 meters to go when he's, you know, looking at what gear he's in? I mean all of these things your mind gets to constantly figure out, you know, how to take, you know, a bloody good race and like a little chess game, make it your own chess game. So I think that's probably my take home message is that the little wins or the little competitions, whether you win or not is irrelevant. It's about enjoying the process, it's about training for something, setting goals, getting the most out of yourself and having fun along the way. And if you win that's great, if you don't, doesn't matter and it doesn't even matter what grade you're in.

That's absolutely brilliant. That's a great way to finish off. We won't hold you up much longer because you're obviously a busy person and we can see you've got, you've got a few calls coming through. Last thing, what's next for you? Are you finishing off your degree? Where's your career path taking you once you finish?

Yeah, so next year I hopefully get a job in a hospital that'll be pretty good. And then I've got to just try and figure out what career path in medicine will work for me. It might be in surgery, might be in cardiology and we'll just see. So that's pretty exciting. A lot of work ahead but you know, hopefully not too much that I can still enjoy all of my sports over the summer. I've been doing some work as well for Box Altitude and they're a local Melbourne company that does altitude training systems. And so I knew about that company because I used to use them when I did my comeback and I used altitude training always when I was training with in the world tour and so we, we did some work as well and there'll be a partnership announced with a world tour team in the not too distant future as well. That company, which is pretty massive. So still continue to do some work for them this year and coming up as well, which is pretty exciting and hopefully a good career in medicine and maybe even see you guys around at a bike race one day in the not too distant future. It was a real pleasure chatting and it really sounds like you guys are doing the right thing in cycling and seen the team around and hopefully get to catch up in the future.

Fantastic. Will, the stuff you've told our listeners is absolute gold, mate. And it's fantastic to hear someone who's been there and done that. You know, really invested in understanding what it took and giving some great tips. We couldn't have scripted anything that you said any better. It's, it's, it's the way to go and especially with younger athletes, with the middle aged athletes, you know, age groupers and, and you know, if you can't hear the lessons that Will's taking today, I'm not sure what direction you're heading, but it's unbelievable value, you know, stuff that you've been given today.

So we really appreciate it, mate.

I think the same thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Thanks a lot. I guess my closing message is have fun and listen to you coach.

That's good. Thanks so much. Will really appreciate you coming on. I really appreciate the chat. It was absolutely brilliant. That's, that's it for this episode. Thank you.

Thanks guys. See you later.

Cheers. Bye bye. Sa.