Women In Triathlon With Stef Hanson

This episode of the Get Fast podcast is brought to you by Tribello Coaching, where we help triathletes and cyclists like you train smarter to race faster. You are joined as always by your host, Australian Ironman champion Jared Donnelly. And I am Jordan Donnelly. In this episode of the podcast, we interviewed Steph Hanson, the founder of Wits up, which is women in triathlon. Steph started in triathlon as an age group athlete and like most people who dare step across the line of a swim bike run event, she was instantly addicted. She went into a journalism path in triathlon and that led her to recognize there are some trends in the industry that she wanted to fix, including women's coverage in race reports and previews. In comparison to the men's was poor, female triathletes didn't get as much exposure as many of the men. The women's racing seemed to be an afterthought compared to the men. The male, male to female ratio in terms of participation numbers were small and the barriers to entry for the sport were high for women especially. So with her experience, passion, observations and the drive, the idea of WITSAP was formed. Witsu.com specifically and the concept of Whitsub is to provide an online and real life community for women in triathlon. And we had a great chat step today. And I will just say off the bat, Step. Anytime you a gender inequality conversation comes up, it can polarize people. And that is not, absolutely not the goal of this conversation. We wanted to get Stefan to promote women in triathlon and from her perspective, find out things that's going on with what's up, that she is doing well, that things that she wants to see improving. And she actually interviews a whole lot of the elite women in triathlon around the globe. And that is, you can learn such powerful lessons from that. And I just want to make it really clear that this isn't a female versus male conversation. @ no point is Stephen saying there's anything wrong with men. She's just trying to promote women. And I think that's a great, a great thing that she really says a couple of times, this isn't anything against the men, not that they're doing anything wrong. I feel like that justification should be unnecessary. No one should be listening and hearing that and going, oh, what about the men? You know, this is a conversation about women in triathlon and I really enjoyed it. Yeah.

And look, her passion comes across, which is fantastic. She is really heavily passionate about her cause and you know, the way she's going about it, you know, in life There are people who complain about things that they're not happy with, and then there are people who do something about things that they're not happy with. And that's the standout thing here. She's identified that she thinks things could be done better with particularly triathlon and the triathlon world and how males and females were being treated at races and the differences. And she's just gone out of her comfort zone and put her money where her mouth is and gone into bat for the imbalance that's clearly obvious in a lot of sport in the world. And she's doing a great job and we really wanted to give her the opportunity and, you know, to speak openly about where she feels she started, where she started at, and where she's at now and what the future is with, you know, promoting women in sport in general and particularly in triathlon. You know, and triathlon's such a time consuming event and, you know, it's so wrong to be thinking that women don't have every opportunity to, as an age grouper, a female age grouper, to do everything that they want to do with their work, with their family, just like the male should be with his work and his family and his passion or her passion. And this is really evident that it's just giving a platform for female triathletes to have a say and speak about things that they think that should be improved.

That's spot on. It's about an open conversation about tackling those stereotypes and why they don't need to exist. So here is Steph Hanson from witsup. Okay, we've got Steph Hanson from witsup on the podcast. Steph, welcome and thanks for joining us.

Thank you very much for having me.

I want to start right off the bat by asking, how did you fall in love with triathlon?

Oh, I will do my best. I'm notorious for saying, long story short. So if I say that, just be warned to get popcorn. Um, I fell in love with. I came from a team sport background and I actually moved from Tassie to Melbourne because I wanted to play Australia for. Sorry, wanted to play softball for Australia. Um, and I actually hurt my back in the first or second game that I. That I ever played here. And through it was three disc bulges. And through that rehab, I started cycling and swimming and my physio at the time was involved in triathlon. He went to the Noosa Tri every way, every year. And I just. It just became this progression. I never, ever thought that I would have anything to do with an individual Sport, because I grew up playing team sports. But it was when the doctor. My back just kept getting worse, and it was pretty much the moment they said, you will never run again, that I was like, well, I'm going to do a triathlon. Because it just felt like it was that next progression for me. And I am very much a person who hates being told what I can and cannot do. So it's a great way to get me to do something is to tell me that I can't do it, to. Which my friends take massive advantage of in many a situation. Yeah. And I did a small country triathlon, and then my first sort of proper triathlon was the Noosa tri. And once you do the Noosa try, I mean, there's. There's no turning back. I did, however, think that every single triathlon from then on was going to be like the Noosa Tri, not realizing just how big that event was, or still is, if it goes ahead. Um, so, yeah, and that's how I fell in love with. Fell in love with the sport. It was. I was up there with my best mate. We knew no one in the triathlon world, but I just felt a part of this bigger, greater family network type of thing. And, yeah, I guess, like everyone probably says, it's the people you meet along the way and that it's just constantly challenging you. And I just. I love a challenge. So, yeah, it just kept evolving.

What year was that? The Noosa one. Your very first.

077.

Right.

And I think. Yeah.

And from your. From your first experience with your little country tribe to the Noosa, had you learned anything in your first experience as a triathlete to your second one, did you actually go?

Okay, great question. I learned not to try and be the first person in the water, because I was the first one in the water at the country race and the last one out of the border because I had a panic attack. Yeah. Because I was just like, go, go, go, go. Like it. Like a puppy in every aspect. Because I did doggy paddles throughout that swim as well, so I could breathe. So. So I guess pacing to an extent was something that I learned pretty quickly. Yeah. And then I guess with the Noosa Tria, it is very much. Because it's so hectic. There's so many athletes. Unless you are out the front very, very early, it's really hard to get around people because it's just jam packed. So I learned that some events are meant to be just. Just fun. Um, yeah, I learned that very early on. But in saying that Then the next event, you know, you step up to a full distance or what have you, and then it's all serious stations again. But the swimming thing was definitely my biggest lesson early on.

Did your back, did your back improve over the journey?

Um, yes and no. I had a lot of flux fluctuations. Um, it definitely kept improving because two years later I did my first iron distance. So I did go from being told I couldn't run to then being able to do an eye distance at Ironman Western Australia. It was whether I would listen to the signals telling me that I needed to rest or stretch or see a physio or what have you. Yeah, it was all about managing it and I didn't always get it right. A lot of the times I didn't get it right and it would set me back for a little while.

So talk to us about the moment or point in time when you decided to start. Start withsapp from there.

So falling in love with the sport. Well, falling in love with any sport that I've been involved in since I was a teenager. It was just. It wasn't just about being a part or participating. I always found that. So in softball, I ended up being junior development officer and marketing media manager at the age of 16 or something because I just fall in love with it and want everyone else to fall in love with the sport that I'm involved in as well. So that's why I try and get out there and get more people involved. And the same thing happened in triathlons. So I was obviously a triathlete. And then I started coaching. I was clearly a lover. Chat love a microphone in front of my face. So I approached one of the local triathlons and said, how does someone get into being an announcer at an event? Commentator? And they said, not many people want to do it. Not many people like talking all day. So I pretty much just got the gig for asking because no one else would do it. And then I started writing for a magazine. First I was a personal trainer and I was just writing personal training articles. And then that evolved and I started going to events and doing interviews. And then it was after I had interviewed this no name Caroline Steffen, only one of the biggest female athletes, biggest athletes on the planet at that point in time, especially because it was about a year before the first Ironman Melbourne. So around 2011, I think, ish, I had this conversation and I'd done this great piece with her. I thought it was the feature piece for the magazine for that edition. And she wasn't on the COVID It was a male athlete on the COVID And I innocently said to the boss, why, why is she not on the COVID And why don't we have many women on the COVID And his response was, women don't sell magazines. And that's when the light bulb went off for me and I realized that I wasn't in the right place. I couldn't fight that sort of culture, I guess, alone in that position. And I just thought, well, screw it, I'll do it myself. And that's where the idea. And I remember, I vividly remember being at my mate's house, we're having a barbecue and for such a long time I was doing all these things, not really knowing where it was going, the commentating, the coaching, the writing. And then it just, it all just came together and that's where the idea was born. And we all pretty much celebrated at my mate's house, realizing that I knew what I was going to do, what I was meant to do.

It's a really great story and a lot of people will criticise from the other side of the fence about the way things are being done in their particular sport, whether it's triathlon or cycling or in work at business. And they're the ones who just sit and criticize. And then there's you who have gone, okay, I see there's an issue here. I'm not going to sit and talk about it, I'm going to do something about it. And that's a fantastic character to have. And you're so enthusiastic about what you're doing and it's no wonder you've been really successful in promoting women in sport, in particular in triathlon. It's really fantastic to sit back and watch how you've gone about it. So congratulations and well done. So the question from that is how, how do you feel that you've gone since that day when you decided, this is, this is the journey I want to be on. I want to, I want to, I want to get, get women in more to the forefront that where they deserve to be in a sport that's dominated by males. And most sports, whether it's cricket or, or, you know, besides netball, you know, most sports are dominated by men and triathlon is one of those sports. I mean, tennis is something, golf something that we can, can compete equally. Um, you know, where, where do you think you are in that journey and how's it gone?

Um, it's funny because I probably would have had a different answer a year ago, before COVID and Pandemics. And whatnot. Um, I, I honestly, and I'm actually thinking this through now as I'm speaking. Um, I don't think I've spent a lot of time over. Cause it's been about a decade since the idea. I don't think I took enough time over that decade to really sit back and appreciate the things that I've done. It's only, I guess, now, in this past year, I've had an opportunity to reflect and think about things and where I want it to go, what direction, if I still want to go down that direction. So I guess I'll answer it in two different parts. The first part is I do fully believe, and a year ago, don't think I would have answered it this way, but I do fully believe that we've changed the landscape for women in triathlon. It's really hard to appreciate it when you're so involved in it. I guess even if you look at training, you don't appreciate how much fitting you've got because you're doing it every single day.

So.

So do you know what I mean? Yeah. If I look back eight, nine years ago, women didn't have that platform. And now, not only do we obviously have the platform for them, but we demand that other platforms raise the bar as well. And if they're not giving women the opportunity to get involved in the sport or highlighting women, they're called out. And it's not that I'm physically shouting out, they see what we're doing and realize that they have to do it, otherwise they'll get left behind type of thing. So I do really believe that we have achieved that. It's not to say that we can go, all right, laptops down, we're done. Get out of here. But I've seen a big change across many different platforms within the industry. And I think triathlon is, is so far ahead of many other sports. You just need to look at cycling, right? It's. It's chalk and cheese triathlon. I feel like we're very privileged in triathlon in terms of equality in comparison to a sport, say, like cycling. But that's where I see it again, as an opportunity to be the leader. Like, why, why can't triathlon still such a young sport? Why can't we be the leader so that other sports come to us, you know, as a template on how to do it type of thing? Where's it going to go next? I don't actually know. I've been doing a lot of thinking. I don't know. I do look at sports like cycling and think, well, is there room for me or us to move into other sports and try to see if we can mix things up? It's hard because I. Let's be honest, I've not earned a whole lot. It's been successful, but I haven't earned a whole lot of money from doing this. And that was never my goal. And cycling is probably even harder to earn a living as a. As a. As a female. Well, obviously as an elite cyclist. Elite female cyclist. But as a company reporting just on women, you know, So I don't know, I just. I'm trying to figure out where my passions lie now. You know, I've had a. Yeah, sorry.

I was gonna say that was gonna be my next question. I mean, what. What sort of changes are you most proud of, specifically, so far? And then I guess, even if you don't know exactly where you want to go, what sort of changes are you really wanting to see happen next?

In triathlon or just in general?

Yeah, you could go in general, but yeah.

Do you know what's interesting? I don't know if you know this. Not many people do. What's up is the only triathlon media platform in Australia. There's no magazines left. There's no other online platforms. There's people say, for example, corrupt vision. Glenn Murray, who does a lot of media content, but he's doing that for other platforms, but there's no sort of news media channel in Australia. And there's a big part of me that thinks, far out. That's incredible for us in terms of that we're still kicking. But then there's a big part of me, a massive part of me. It's like, what. What's happening to the sport that there's no one talking about the men, like, what is going on? So, you know, I think about that. I think, is there. And I don't want to say opportunity, because that sounds opportunistic, but the sport that I love isn't getting the recognition outside of the swim, bike, run world. So, you know, is there something. Do I owe it to the sport to try and build up triathlon, not just women in triathlon? I don't know.

I would argue that there are tons more independent publications coming out now in terms in the form of podcasts and YouTube channels, slash brands. So, yeah, one really positive thing. I mean, you said before that the quote from your boss or whoever said, women don't sell covers, you know, and I would say, ask women. Lucy Charles Barkley, if women sell now, you know, because her brand is the, one of the biggest of triathlon in the world from a broad perspective. You know, that YouTube channel, her just her whole brand has such a following and that is a really positive step.

Oh, definitely. And I mean it's interesting you say there's other channels and that's, that's the world that we live in right now is everyone has their, their own platform or their own channel or what have you. But it's. Yeah, news like that's their news that they have complete control over that. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's interesting.

And yeah, I guess a lot of it is that brand of athletes on Instagram. You know, each, each pro athlete now has their own kind of brand where they have 3000-0500-0010-0000 followers if they're in the top kind of 10 in the world where they're reporting themselves. But you're right, it's not a kind of independent news source. Yeah, a little bit off topic, but let's just clarify what WITS UP stands for because we actually said it a lot of times, but not the acronym. So talk us through it.

Well, it's really hard to come up with a name for it for a brand or a company. And I was going through so many different ideas. Originally I just wanted wit.com, women in triathlon.com. but as it turns out, any three letter website is taken. Everyone's bought every single one so that if you need it, they'll charge you a ridiculous amount of money to purchase it. And I was going through, I even was thinking of like Greek goddess, you know, strong, powerful names. And it just, it wasn't rolling off the tongue for me. And then eventually I just came up with witsup, which stands for Women in Triathlon. Sup. Which is so like, I think it's funny, but I get a little bit embarrassed about it because it is silly. But I don't know, it kind of highlights my personality, which is a big part of what the brand is about in that we're serious about what we do, but we don't take ourselves too seriously. And I think a lot of triathletes in particular, as you would know in this sport need to, I don't know, adhere to that kind of saying. A lot of triathletes take themselves very seriously and I think a lot of triathletes need to chill, you know, so that's where I'm sort of coming from. Have I convinced you?

I really like that. I think the fact that it's congruent with your Personality is what it's about. And there is, you're right, so much just in. In the world in general, things can be taken too seriously in any lightheartedness, I think is always a good thing. That's my personal opinion. Any more fun, we can add in. So talk us through the amount of things that you do with whitsap, because if you look at your website, you've got your know, your news, you've got your blog, you've got your interviews, your podcasts, you've got events, you commentate as well. So. And you've got a team that helps you. So talk us through, you know, what, what's everything that's happening with WhatsApp and what are you. What are you really pushing for at the moment?

So I guess originally it started like an online magazine is how I always just referred to it. So it was all just written content. I learned very quickly that I had to figure out how to use a camera because paying for photography was never going to happen for such a small business. So I had to get myself a camera and learn. So as that's grown and evolved over the years, imagery has been a big part of the website as well. And the right type of imagery, which is a whole other thing to go down in terms of when you take a photo of someone running. Actually, can I just sidebar what I've learned from the difference between pro men and pro women, and probably age group, men and women, pro or women on the run stride, like to be in the forward motion, so their front leg is lifting up, so their knees facing the camera. So because, you know, I mean, no one wants to look like they're landing because it just isn't aesthetically pleasing. Men, however, I've learned, don't like that because that's when their quads are at their smallest, so they don't want. They want it when they're in the air, when they're at full extension, so you can see all of their quads popping. Anyway, that's what I've learned over the years. There you go. Yeah. So just it all started being written content. It was all about promoting the women within the sport, the professional women, but also trying to get more women involved in the sport as well. And that came through our branding. And that sort of personality, in terms of we're serious about what we do, don't take ourselves too seriously, because that's a massive barrier for women especially coming into the sport, is that it is seen as quite a serious, insane, intense kind of thing. And also a Lot of people think of triathlon as Ironman and forget that there's know the shorter course stuff, but that's another barrier to entry. But as the years evolved and I guess my skill set evolved, I wanted to go into videography. Years ago we kind of started the little videos that came out of Kona and now every professional athlete's got their own videographer there. So I can't, I can't compete with that because they're focusing on one or two athletes and I've got to try and, you know, talk to every athlete, which is fine. And then obviously the podcast has been running for a few years, which is probably one of my favorite things because I just love chatting. But I feel, you know, you speak to any athlete at an event, which we're typically at, Covid aside, we're typically at a lot of events around the globe. There's only so much you get from professional athletes at an event, at a race, at a game, whatever, and you know, triathlon wins on the day and rah, rah, rah kind of thing and. But a podcast, a long form interview is where you really find out the nuts and bolts of who people are. And that's what I. That's what, that's what makes me excited. I like to find out that kind of stuff. And I feel like I've got really good relationships with the women across the globe, which didn't happen overnight, but that's come over years and years and years of working hard and them trusting me that I'm here to do good in the sport. I'm not about sensationalism or trying to throw anyone under the bus. I just want to tell stories that people want to hear or help tell stories. So yeah, I miss the. We've hosted events over the years, which might be a lot of the times, panel events, which again, I really enjoy doing that because people in a panel tend to be a little bit more relaxed. And the way that I host things, it's not a polished Q and A, it's a discussion. And then people feel comfortable asking questions from the audience, but I really miss doing that. Something that's really missing from the pen, from the pandemic. So the next 12 months is going to be interesting because yes, I'll be going to races across Australia as much as possible, but what it looks like from a Covid safe plan in terms of covering events changes daily, weekly. So at the moment it's just about learning how to be pretty flexible. And communication is key with athletes we want to speak to or event organizers. There's a lot of workarounds happening at the moment, and I think will be happening for quite some time because it all changes in a heartbeat.

You've covered some really good topics there. And, you know, we can't avoid what's happened with COVID and the pandemic in the last year, but it's been a lot of good things that have come about, as you mentioned earlier in the podcast just before, about, you know, giving more platform time because, you know, there's not a lot of events on. So people are searching for information about what's happening out there. And so that leads to the next question. The podcasts that you've been doing with some of the real top elite triathletes of the world, what are some of the. Let's delve into some of the interviews you've had and from your perspective, what are some of the common themes, firstly, that you hear from. Let's just pick on the elite women triathlete. What, what are the things that stand out when you're interviewing, you know, you've interviewed a lot of them. What, what are the one or two things that you could say, well, you've got the X factor that's going to make you, you know, a standout as a, you know, is it work balance? Is it, you know, articulation? Is it attention to detail? What are the things that, that you found?

It's interesting. I, and it's not just because of the pandemic, but I think that's definitely helped highlight this. And you said the word balance, and that is definitely something that keeps coming up is balance and juggling and figuring out what truly, how am I trying to say it, What I've learned from a lot of the professional women is that they, they seem to perform better. And this isn't all of them, but this is a lot who I've spoken to, they perform better when they're happy. But trying to figure out what makes them happy outside of swim, bike, run and rest and strength and conditioning or what have you, what is truly making them happy? And when it's not results driven because of a pandemic, what else keeps that ticking and making them happy and that, that's a theme that seems to be coming up a lot. Some are finding the answers, some are still trying to figure out the answers. I spoke to one just the other week, and it feels like she's been, she goes through a cycle and she, she finds her happiness and then things start to go to shit again and she's evolving as a person and has to find her new level of balance, normalcy, whatever. And then. So she's probably gone through like three of those cycles in her life. But what I found interesting is that she could actually recognize it. I don't think everybody has the ability to be able to recognize those life cycles, whether you're an elite athlete or not. What's been interesting, I guess, over the duration of the pandemic is the discussion or the topic over elite women becoming pregnant. Because a lot, you know, especially if you look at the Olympics, putting the Olympics off, you know, it's every four years, right? And I know that they race and train every in between those four years. But four years is a long time between the biggest event, if that's, if that's what you are focusing on for that, for those goals to be shifted a year and you're wanting to have a second child or your first child, and you are just hanging on, just hanging on to the end of the Olympics and then it gets shifted a year, that's. A year is a long time in a woman's life who's, you know, considering starting, starting a family. And so those themes have come up a lot over the duration of the pandemic. And it's actually, well, it's themes that we've been trying to discuss for years and years, years and years, because I don't. I think it's things that elite women are scared to talk about because there's also that sponsor, you know, there's sponsorships. And are you open with your sponsors as to whether you want to start a family? Is it written into your contract? There's just, there's so many things that I guess used to be taboo, but during the pandemic, a lot more people have been quite, quite open about discussing, discussing these things.

There's, there's some interesting topics you've just raised there. And the pandemic has certainly gave. Gave a lot of people perspective, hasn't it? And, and made them realize that, geez, maybe I, I'm on this merry go round as a professional triathlete with nothing else in my world, and all of a sudden my world's stopped on me. And whether it's triathlon or, or your business, that's what's happened to everybody in the world with the pandemic. But it really exposes you, doesn't it, as to. You're so focused on, you know, that summer period where you've got 20 races lined up, where you're traveling, you're packing your bag and you're on a plane, you don't know what city you're in, you know, just doing another race. And. And you're so focused on it, but when that's taken away from you, then you're exposed, aren't you, to, oh, what? What have I got in my life again? That besides this? Is that something that you've found as being kind of a moment that a lot of the female triathletes. And then obviously what you're talking about just now is, you know, the other priorities in their Life. Are they 19, 20, 21, or are they 28, 29, 30, or are they 36, 37, 38? They're three different age brackets, which will mean different things to the female athlete compared to the male.

Yeah, it's absolutely been a constant discussion. And to the same extent, I kind of felt a little bit like that as well, just because I used to travel the globe and that was a big payoff for my business. We don't earn a whole lot of money, but I get to have these amazing adventures and travel the world. And then that was taken away from me, and I'm questioning my worth. And what are we promoting when there's no races? And, you know, like everyone else, we pivoted and we chained, you know, and, you know, I took the direction of the things that I'm passionate about anyway, which is telling stories. But I feel like a lot of the. And I'm just saying the women, because I haven't spoken to the men, I'm sure they have gone through some very similar things. Obviously not wondering whether they can get pregnant. But, you know, I'm sure they've experienced a lot of these kind of things as well. But because I just speak to the women, I will just speak on that. There's been. It's been roller coasters, so they're okay with it for a while. And then, you know, Zwift have come in and there's racing series that they can be a part of. So that. That feeds that competitive urge. Yeah, so it's like I was saying with Zwift, it feeds that competitive urge, but also, I guess it relieves that stress level of how I'm. How am I going to give a platform for my sponsors? You know, so there's all those, you know, everyone's fighting for a dollar in this sport. How do I. If I'm not racing, which is what I do, which is what I'm good at, how do I show support for my sponsors who are probably pulling back money as well, because they've been affected and so the stress levels have been very much up and down. And then I guess, as you would know, coaching people, you know, we start to see the light. Ironman New Zealand's a great example. Or Geelong 70.3. We're set, we're ready to go. And then the world changes again and we have to recalibrate. And you know, particularly training for an Ironman, it can be quite a, you know, you're on, you're on a race's edge trying to get ready for that exact moment and then to change it. I mean, I'm not a coach anymore, but I can imagine that's tough to deal with. Not just obviously physically, but the mental and the emotional stress from that is quite high for an athlete and then times that by 10 for a professional athlete who makes a living from doing it. Yeah. So I think we've seen and then only just thought of this now, but even the ethical side of things, if we're looking at races that are happening, say in the US which is a hive of COVID I imagine asking yourself, oh, should I really be going to this race? Um, at what cost am I going to this race? I know a lot of people didn't travel because they, ethically they didn't want to, because they didn't want to be seen to be potentially spreading this thing around. Um, but also the risk of them having it and then having to quarantine when they came back or passing on to their family or you know, things like that. Um, you know, and then so I then just, sorry to make it about me. But then I start to think, well, what are we promoting? What, you know, what sort of ethical standards should we be adhering to in terms of promoting these events that should they really be going ahead? I don't know. I don't have the answers, but I certainly have a lot of questions.

I really like the point you made about the ability to tell stories on a long form interview and get into the mindset of pro athletes who are going through these experiences and going through these challenges. Because when you hear different people's stories about these challenges, whether it's Covid or whether it's just general challenges outside of COVID it really helps feed down into everyone's personal experience of their life. And that's why we love telling stories on this podcast, is because it applies to the age group of triathlete, you know, not everything, because things that professional athletes do, not every age group needs to do, even though a lot of age groupers try to train like a triathlete. But what's some of the stories or a story that really stands out to you that you feel is a favorite of yours that does apply to the age group and specifically if it's a female triathlete story, that applies to the general female triathlete. Oh.

Gosh, there's a lot I think. I wish I could say it was a feel good story, but unfortunately it's not. The first thing that comes to mind is body image and eating disorder stories. And I also, it's not just women specific. We've seen this in, I'm sure age group, men. I don't know of any personally, but I also don't think it's probably spoken about enough. I'm sure it happens. You probably know people yourself. But I guess I was first I. It was before we had a podcast, but I was trying to start like some video chats and it was they're only meant to be about 10 minutes. And I actually sat down with Jody Kahnema, who was Jody Swallow at the time. And for whatever reason she opened up about everything. And I was A, blown away by the story and just what she'd gone through, but B, really blown away by how comfortable she was with telling me the story. It was like we forgot the cameras were there and we were just chatting. And that's to me, that's the, the best way to do things or the best way to get a story from someone. And it's, that's when it really highlighted those issues that exist and how important it is to tell those stories so that an age grouper or anyone out there who might be experiencing those same kind of issues can potentially stop things before it gets too, too dire. Unfortunately, I think we're always going to have these stories, but if it helps one person, then I still believe that it's worth talking about it. I mean, that's a whole other series of podcasts, isn't it? And again, I spoke to another woman recently and it was this cyclical effect of an aggressive or abuse. Not aggressive, abusive coach who would affect the way that she looked at food because she was worthless. And the only time that she got praised was because when she lost a kilo before a race and actually did well and then she thought that was the only way to do things. And it just. I don't know. And again, I don't know the answers other than talking about it so that people can hear that this isn't the way that things should happen. And I don't know Maybe even seeing these discussions as a circuit breaker is the way I kind of envision it because it happens way too often. And what scares me the most, especially having a daughter who I hope is involved in sport, but having a daughter who, you know, maybe one day, I don't know, she might be an astronaut, I've got no idea. She can be whatever she wants to be, but if she's in a situation and she can't recognize that she's being mistreated or being told the wrong things, that's what I want to be able to give to people is the information and the education to, to be able to make decisions so that they're not stuck in positions that they shouldn't be in. I think about that kind of stuff a lot. Again, don't know if that answered your question.

That was great. And leads me to the next sort of question. With the multitude of athletes who you've interviewed and as children looking at parents, children emulate parents, good and bad, as you found out. A young mum and me watching my children grow up, you just are horrified at some of the things they repeat because they've seen you do it. And this is the same age group as the point I'm trying to get across here. The age groupers who listen to our podcasts, they're trying to get information about making themselves better at the sport they've chosen. That's basically what they're trying to do. They're trying to learn how to improve themselves. And whether that's going from, you know, a four hour walk run marathon to a three hour 30 run, all the way, that's a, that's a PB and that's kind of what they're after. So. So when you've interviewed these elite professional female triathletes, unfortunately, unfortunately or fortunately, those are representing what the age group was going to follow. And what do you feel when you've interviewed these people of, you know, whether they want it or not, they're in a position of responsibility. Do you feel we're represented well by the elite female triathlete going forwards?

That's a fantastic question. Yes and no, in some respects. And I think, and again, this is where I think the podcast is really important because you can get stories and you can get insights and also authenticity because after a little while, people forget that they've got a microphone in front of their face and it just becomes a lot more real. At a race, when they've got three minutes to tell a story, you're just getting the byline, you're not getting much from it. And that's where I think we get into trouble. Just telling those success stories or racing and things like that. That's where I think these podcasts are important to. Yeah, to showcase stories that really can, can really have an impact.

Yeah, because the age grouper is definitely watching and learning, just like the child with their parent. It's, it's no different. And, and you know, they hang on every word and if they know that someone. We've told the story on that podcast where you may have remembered where. Rob DiCostello it was a long time ago in the 80s, long before your time, Steph, probably at the Commonwealth Games when he had to go to the toilet and he couldn't in the middle of the race and the cameras were on him and it was the pointy end of the race and he had to go to the toilet and he dropped off the back of the canyon. I canga, it's a well known story, but he, he went to the toilet and he's in his green and gold shorts of Australia and, and then from that point on every aid station, he'd grab a sponge and wipe, wipe his legs and, and from that point on, in every marathon for the next five years, marathoners would grab sponges and wipe their legs. And that's the sort of example. I'm, I'm sorry. You know, the age grouper is hanging on every, every good and bad thing.

Sharing the, what you're saying, Seth, as well, is sharing the negative as well as the positive is just as valuable. You know, the success stories are unbelievably valuable, motivating. They're so good to hear. They, they often get people really revved up to go for a goal and a challenge. But the negative stories do the same thing as well because you have to hear the bad and hear how people got through challenges and they're, they're just as important.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, I mean, just as an example you look at and again, you would be well aware of this. Age groupers who are, who are turning pro and most age groupers who I've spoken to who have been in this position to turn pro or the, what is it? The pro age groupers or whatever, they just want to train more and it's trained more and train more and train more. But if you actually spend time with an athlete, which this isn't, it's not a great story. But professional athletes rest so they don't add a whole bunch of hours on because they don't work a 9 to 5 job, they spend that time resting and fueling correctly. But that's not a. That's not like an awesome, cool story to tell, is it? So you don't see that on the YouTube channels. You don't see that at an event when whoever's crossed the line and is talking about the amount of Ks she put in on the bike during training and she doesn't go, yep, my success comes down to the fact that I've just been learning how to rest better and nap during the day. Like, that's not. It's not. That's not fun. Whereas having these kind of conversations, those things start to, you know, and if you, if you take it back to, to the eating disorders and body images, that just doesn't, it doesn't come up in a short form interview or story or race report or what have you. Um, yeah, I mean, and, well, age group triathletes at the pointy and are always looking for those tiny 1 percenters, aren't they? And change changes that they make and you know that they look at the, the top triathletes on a bike and the tweaks they've made to their bike, and then all of a sudden they come to you and, oh, I've got to change this to my bike. And forgetting that that's a process over time, but you don't see that process. You just see the result of it and it's, it's easy to forget that. I get it. I've been guilty of it myself. Absolutely.

Is there anybody talking about, you know, success stories, Is there anybody that you've seen really come from adversity and, and have a. A battle, a battle on their hands and, and I don't mean triumph by being a winner. I don't mean that. I mean, you know, someone who's just had a raw deal handed to them with, with injury or with whatever. Whatever adversity, but have. Have just kept going and, and come through it and, and been a really a better person and a leader for good. For good, you know, for showing. Showing the example of, you know, it is tough. It's not all easy. It's not all, you know, beers and skittles. There are, you know, there are tough periods.

God, it's hard to pinpoint one person. I just keep thinking of Kelsey Withrow, who I just. And I think it's just because I interviewed her a couple of weeks ago, but I do just remember thinking, far out. You've been through the ringer and you still just Triathlon to you is rainbows and unicorn, like you still just love it. And she's the one that I was talking about earlier who seems to have these cycles throughout her life where things are good and then they come crashing down and then she realizes that what was making her happy wasn't necessarily. And she's just evolving as a human, not. Not just a triathlete, but she. She came from abusive coaching relationship, eating disorders, injuries, being thrown in the deep end of the sport and not having the support that she needed being put. This is what blew my mind. And I'm sure it happens all the time, but she. She basically reported an abusive coaching relationship, and then the next step from the governing body was to have a meeting with that coach and this young woman in a room altogether. And you don't need to know, I mean, watch a movie that's got domestic abuse or you don't need to know much about abuse to know that that is probably the worst thing you can do. So just dealing with those kind of things and she. I can't remember what quote it was, but essentially she'd done, let's just say, a hundred races and had never been on the podium. It was still just ticking away. And then eventually it all clicked and she started podiuming or winning. She's not one of the biggest athletes in the world in terms of exposure or, you know, top tens in Kona or anything, but she's. She's an athlete that I think could have quit quite a few times and decided that the love of swim, bike and run was far greater than the adversity that she'd had over time. The other one is Karen Smyers, who, you know, is one of the greatest triathletes that the sport has seen, but it's so easily forgotten because she comes from that Laurie Bowden, Paula Newby Fraser kind of era where their bigger name is because they've won Kona quite a few times. But her story is incredible and she's been through the ringer and we. I happened to start the podcast and like, you guys sort of did as well. Like, let's just hit record because we're already talking. And I hit record straight away, and thank God I did, because the first 15 minutes is about her telling me that she'd been coughing up blood and now has this heart condition. And that's the only. You know, this is the reason why she's stopped racing pro and she's 60 something. Just blows my mind. And I always. I quite often think about the chicken and the Egg. Did triathlon sort of create some of these problems, or did triathlon help you through these problems physically and mentally and emotionally? And I don't think there is an actual answer, but it's an. I think it's an interesting question.

Was there something that Kelsey said helped her get through that university? Specifically because it's a. It's a big leap to go through that and then just say, no, I still love triathlon.

Oh, God. I don't think I actually even asked that specific question. I wish I had now. Thank you. You can have a job on the what's Up? Podcast.

A lot of the themes. A lot of the themes, Steph, would be. I would say, the ones with adversity. It would be passion, wouldn't it? They just love what they're doing. That would be the common theme, wouldn't it?

I think to be successful in this sport, you have to be, you know, you have to be passionate about it. I just think about, for example, the Australian. This is just discussions I've had of late. The Australian Open. Right. A few of the athletes were complaining that they were locked up beforehand. Um, which was not. Not great. Being, obviously from Melbourne and being locked down. Yes. But I thought about it, and I was like, we work in an industry where the fastest athlete over, well, let's just say nine hours for the women, eight hours for the men. On the hot. Like on the sun in Kona, wins is $125,000. I think it is at the moment. I can't. I kind of remember. But that. That's. That. That's the biggest race of the year. Right. Historically speaking, the Australian Open, those athletes who were locked up for two weeks could have stepped foot on, you know, in the arena, lost every single point, and got paid 100 grand. And I'm just like, I. Yeah, it.

It's so funny. I used that exact example.

Oh, really? Yeah.

People. In 1988, the prize money for the Ironman was $4,000 for the Australian Open, tennis was 400,000 the same year.

Great.

You're happy with the sport you chose. I said, no, I've chosen the wrong sport. But that's not true. I chose the right sport because I loved that. I was passionate about that. And the money was, you know, would have been great. Absolutely. Don't get me wrong.

To get.

But it was just the irony for me was, how much does a triathlete train? And I know tennis players train hard. I'm not criticizing that. But there's an unbelievable imbalance here.

Absolutely. It's Proof that you have to be passionate about the sport to be successful. Yeah, yeah.

This has been a great chat, Steph, to finish off and dad, I'll let you ask another question if you have one. But, um, what, what would you like to see, for example, males in the sport do to help and you've mentioned a couple of times that you don't, you know, you haven't interviewed the males, you don't talk about them. I don't think that justification is necessary because your, your thing is women in triathlon, so you don't need to equally talk about the men. You know, your role is to help bring up women in triathlon. We have seen ourselves a increase each year on the amount of females signing up to coaching. I think that is increasing in terms of participation in the sport, but there is still a big gap and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. But how can we help or what would you want to see the general public do or people do to promote women in triathlon, promote participation, promote more comfort, any of those factors?

Can I turn the question around for just a second?

Yeah, sure.

Can't help it. This is what I do. But I'm interested to know because, and correct me if I'm wrong, Trivelo works a lot with the higher end athlete, is that right? Who are trying to know.

Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because that is a big misconception. We get a lot we have to clarify with people, I think because we have a lot of good athletes.

But so true, Jordan, they might start off mediocre and they end up being really good is what we're trying to achieve. And we would love to have everybody as a beginner because our goal is to one, make them happy doing their sport, two, see that they're improving. We don't care whether they're beginners, intermediate or elite. It doesn't matter to us.

Yep, everyone's got their own PB that they're working towards. So with that being said, I'm interested to know because in my experience, and this might come across a bit wrong, but men have a great way in this sport of justifying things so they can justify spending more money on a new set of wheels, can justify spending a lot more money on whatever it is. Whereas, and this is again just my experience, it might be different for you guys. Women don't tend to be able to justify as easy putting that money into upgrading equipment or whatever it might be. But as you've seen, the own women under Trivelo evolve and get Better and you know, start to get towards that pointy end of the age group field. Have you seen that change in their mindset in terms of. Justifying is not quite the right word, but, you know, putting, putting time, you know, we put so much time into training and stuff. But what about all the other things as well that can help you become a better athlete?

It also depends on the individual person because athletes of both genders wanting to upgrade and not wanting to upgrade. And dad, I'm sure you'll have an answer for this in terms of it's your choice, you know, it depends how much you want to spend to get better. You don't have to have a $14,000 time trial bike to improve, you know, especially the more beginner you are starting starting, the less you need that stuff.

Totally.

Yeah. But dad, I'll let you input that as well.

Yeah, it's a great question, Stefan. It's funny, you've turned this whole thing around to us. You're very skillful. But to quickly just answer the questions before we let you go. But, but definitely there is a point whether it's male or female, where they all of a sudden have gone from inquiring to be a triathlete. What's involved here? You know, especially when we get the beginners. It's, it's all a lot of questions. What, what do I have to do again? I have to buy a new bike, I have to buy a garment, I have to buy riding shoes, running shoes, how much is it going to cost me? So, so there is a point where they either decide I'm all in or I'm not. And, and that seems to be more a decisive thing than whether I'm good enough to do this sport. It's, it's kind of, ah. I don't know whether I'm serious enough to do entries that are $900 or 700 or 500. I don't know if I'm good enough to travel to Port Mac or, you know, oh, I just want to do the local sprint, you know, so, so there's all this information they're getting first up, whether they're male or female that we actually say right at the beginning is, this is what this is. This is what you need to do to actually get yourself into this sport. And it's not a cheap sport by any means. It's, you know, you go and join an ATHS club, what do you need? A pair of runners and possibly a Garmin watch, but to do a triathlon. Oh my God. From the Wetsuit, to the form goggles, to the, you know, to the flippers, to the pool entry, to the bike, to the new bike, to the Garmin, to the heart rate meter, to the power meter, to the better wheels. On and on it goes. And before you know, you've spent ten grand setting yourself up for. For a sport that pays nothing. So. So it's really not much. This. There seems to be not about am I able or good enough to do this sport is I. I don't know enough about the sport to, you know, I'm. I'm so behind in. I didn't realize I needed all that equipment. I didn't realize I needed to know so much about how to do the event, you know, whereas the intention at the beginning was not that, but it's evolved to be that.

And.

And that's what they focus on more than their. Than their competency, I think. And I think a lot of the female triathletes are really turned off by all of that technology and equipment, and I can't be bothered with that. I just want to compete. I just want to go and, you know, swim and bike and run on my clunker and, you know, but I'm a little bit. Feel under pressure because everybody I look in the compound has all the equipment, and I'm embarrassed because I don't. I think that's a major factor in. In who's doing the sport and who's being prevented from doing the sport.

Yeah. And it's up to us to continually break that down and, yes, switch off that triathlon jargon and. Because you can actually go and do a triathlon, just a local triathlon, on your neighbor's bike, throw some shoes on. You just need to look at the kids. I reckon the kids are a great place to start because, I mean, there's a few kids turning up with a road bike, but. And an aero helmet. I've seen it, I've taken photos of it, but you see them doing it and they're like, oh, what do I wear? Okay, I'll just wear my bathers the entire time. All right. Who cares? They don't care. Yeah, exactly.

I booked my first triathlon. I was a teacher at a school, and I didn't have a bike. I had a commuter thing. And one of the kids I taught, his family were into track racing and road bikes. And he said, yeah, borrow my bike, Mr. Donnelly. I said, great. So I took it down to Frankston and got out of the water, and the bikes were on the ground. In 1980, one at the Frankston Triathlon with the, with the 45 people who were doing it and, and you had a bucket of water and, and anyway, I grabbed the bike and took off and got to Seaford and realized this wasn't my student's bike, this was someone else's bike. So that's an example of, you know, doing your first triathlon with nothing and always having a ball with it. It was such an experience. And that's the thing we need to get back to is, yes, you know, it is fun to go fast and be successful and improve, but the fun part is that the actual event. Yeah.

Answer your original question. We enjoy helping the more beginner person because they've got so much room for improvement. So it's just, it is so fun to see someone come start from scratch. And we've had great experiences last year of people picking up triathlon training and Coach Covid not knowing a thing. And dad, we've been shocked at how, how much people have learned over the last year about triathlon.

I think we're, we, we as a sport really need to take advantage of the fact that people were riding and running a lot during COVID times and turning them into triathletes for sure. Yep. I don't know what you asked me before. Sorry.

You turned it around beautifully.

Well, do you have any, do you have any final thoughts on any topic we spoke about today? Anything you'd like our listeners to get? Anything you'd like us to know about women in triathlon?

Well, first of all, I would love to host an event, a triathlon event, where it is old school, so correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the day before garments, everything, when we used to have the Casio watches, right. I've been rocking this bad boy for quite some time and everyone in the triathlon world gives me grief about it. But where, yeah, there's no, no fancy timing chips and stuff. You've got to write down your name when you come out of the swim and all that kind of stuff. You're not allowed to have aero anything. You've got to do it in Budgie. I want to bring back a race like that. It's just, it's called the retro Triathlon and just bells and whistles, leave them at the door and let's just go and race hard. I would love to do that. That's the first thing I wanted to.

Say as a novelty. It would take off, wouldn't it?

I think it is. And people would come with the most ridiculous fluoro Nonsense. It'd be great. It'd be great.

Can I tell you, Strada Bianca, the race that was just on the weekend cycling race, that's how that event started. It was a retro event on the dirt roads in Italy and people were coming dressed in all sorts of fancy gear and, you know, penny farthings and. And now look at it. It's one of the best pro races in the world. But. But that's. That's kind of what we're saying, isn't it? Yep.

To add on to that, I will say that one of my favorite photos in the world is a photo of dad crossing the finish line. Australian champion. And he is wearing a white singlet and these things called fancy pants and their Fluoro running shorts. And I reckon we should bring those back, to be honest.

Totally. Yeah. Like where the guys wear the little crop tops, like the. What was it? The two IS blue series and. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Bring it back. And hard racing. So let's get them going up hills and, you know, so we see some athletes having to push the bike up, you know, walk a bike up there. I guess Matthew Flinders at Iron Man Oz does that. But that's. Yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

There's some insane races out there already. But I remember doing a race in Reunion where it was 36 degrees at the beach when we swam and then when I started riding up this hill and I had no idea because we just flown in where the course was and when we got to a thousand meters at altitude, the guy in the car behind me starts giving me the newspaper to put down my crop top singlet because it was nearly snowing up there.

Oh, my gosh.

And I was in speedos and a crop top singlet and descending, you know, just shaking like this the whole way down, back to 36 degrees. So, yes, there are some extreme races that. And I'll never forget that race because it was just ridiculously too hard.

That reminds me of the time I rode up Mount Wellington because I'm originally from Tassie. And yeah, it was like 20 degrees. It was beautiful in the city. And then I forgot it could snow on the mountaintop and I was just in a jersey and shorts. Yeah. Someone had to bust me down because I was.

Yep.

But anyway, so what's up? Women in triathlon? I don't know. I guess like anything in the world right now where, you know, in. In all industries across many different topics, the topic of equality, you know, whether it be race, gender, what have you continues to come up. I guess for me, it's really important to be doing a lot of listening and supporting of other people. And I think that's the only way. I don't know. I'm kind of sick of shouting for women in sport. I'm a bit exhausted, to be honest. We just recently had International Women's Day and my whole thing was I'm taking the day off because I'm. I do this every other day of the year. Everyone else can shout about it for a day. And I hope that that obviously goes throughout the year. But, yeah, I just would really like to get to a place where what's up doesn't have to exist. That'd be fantastic. But I feel like there's still a lot of learning to happen. There's a lot of. It's not that people are aggressively sexist or what have you. It's not like people who host events like, I don't care about the women. I'm not going to do this. It's more that they haven't thought about the women and therefore they get left behind, you know, on certain things. And that could be as simple as some of the cycling races that we've seen where women have had to stop their race because it affected the men's race in cycling, I'm talking about. So that's where it's just really important to be listening and having more women involved where decisions are being made. And I guess men knowing that they're not taking away from them, it's about them joining and trying to, you know, a little bit of unity would be fantastic. That was way bigger than just women in triathlon, but you know what I mean? Like, I just think that's across the board. That's what has to happen as a human race. Yeah, it's a great answer.

And as always, it's not trying to be a competition. It's not a versus thing. A male versus female shouldn't be that. Like you just said, it's about the whole sport trying to grow together.

I think so.

Thanks very much, Steph, for jumping on. Really appreciated this chat. The last 15 minutes has just been very casual, but it's very great. We love. We love having these kind of chats people can find you at or listen to the Widow podcast. Any other places you want them to find you? Instagram.

I'll just look for what's up on any platform. Really? Yeah, it's. It's pretty easy to find. Because of the name.

Yeah. Yeah, I think everyone remember the name now. After the story you told. Well, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate you having on and we'll hopefully have you on again soon.

Take care. Thank you.

Thanks, Steph.