#100 Embracing Indigenous Wisdom: Helen Paul-Smith on ŌKU's Journey with Native Plants and Rongoā Māori

Hello, Shamai K. Good day. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Before we get stuck into today's episode, we've got a very special gift from today's guest, Helen. So, Helen, without further ado, over to you.

Kia ora, everybody. Thank you, Tim. Thank you for having me on your podcast. And I'd just like to open our podcast with a karakia. Meinoitato namihio te ra kitifano ihui makatapuata.

Moti nioriora Kia ora.

So before we get stuck into the podcast episode, can you explain to people who may be outside New Zealand what we've just experienced?

So what we've just experienced, audience, is what's called a karakia in Mori culture, and it's a cultural practice that we use for various occasions. So for certain meetings or special occasions. And it's just like an opening prayer, really. We're just like asking for protection and acknowledging everyone in the room and so that our conversations are harmonious and we're guided through the whole process.

Very cool. And was there anything specific that the catechea kind of mentioned or touched on, or was it just sort of a general ask?

This is a. Yeah, I just did a general catechia for the day and bringing in good and positive energy, basically. And then we'll, at the end of the podcast, we'll also close off with a catechia as well.

We will do. So there you go. So, yeah, I mean, we, we have a fairly international audience on the podcast, heavily tilted towards New Zealand. So there you go. For people outside of New Zealand, you've just experienced maybe your first catechia. So hopefully it was everything you hoped for and a bit more.

I guess, let's. Let's go to who you are first and then we'll come back to Karakiya and maybe we'll explore that sort of part that we're going to get to anyway. But I know you also want to do a thorough introduction for yourself in a Mori manner. So over to you again for your pipiha.

So I'm going to introduce myself using my pipiha. So in traditional Mori.

Cultural practices, we talk about our mountain, like where our mountain is, where our river is, who our tribe is, who our sub tribe is, and who our whnau is. So that's what's included in our pepiha, which I'm going to do for you now. So, ko rangiuru te manga kaituna te awa, kotearawat te waka, Ko tapuika te IWI konatimokute hapu kumukutemarai K. Nikitai Tifano Koa Helen Paul Smith Takawinga Noreira Tinakoto Tinakoto Tina Tato Katoa and so I basically just went through where my ancestors come from and what was their mountain and river and the canoe that they arrived in New Zealand on. Etc.

Nice. So there we go. Before we've even got into the episode. Had an amazing amount of education and inspiration and positivity. So thank you for providing us with that.

The Pepia. It's interesting when you. I had a conversation this week with an organization about the, you know, what is the overlap between Teal Baldi and B Corp principles? And I think there's quite a lot of overlap, but I think the Pepia is really interesting. You know, in a, in a Western mindset context, you. You meet someone, you sort of shake hands and the first thing is, you know, who are you? Who do you work for? You know, very rarely do you really get to, you know, where are you from, where do you descend from, what. What place is of some spiritual significance to you? I remember there was a gentleman who gave a talk at a conference. I was speaking at a few before COVID and part of his peppy heart. It was sort of, you know, my name, my family, where I come from. But one of the last things you declared within his IWI was what your purpose was. And I saw well, that that is like even next level to kind of go, you now have the full context who I am, where, where I'm from. And I. And I. And I think that's another thing in the west, we're pretty poor on is even knowing where we've come from and what connection we have to ancestry.

True.

Yeah. So.

And it's also a way, like when we get together, when we have like, hui, for example, who he means meetings.

We can identify each other quite easily. We do our pepeha. So. Oh, you're that whnau. Oh, you're from over there. So you, you know, and Mori are really good at making connections and identifying. Okay, that's your whana over there. And we do have fan pocapapa experts as well. So like, I met a man we're working with on a restoration project a few months ago, and he was talking to me about how my grandfather's grandmother, Whakapapa, is back to that piece of land that we're working on. So you've got people within the tribe who have got such incredible knowledge and can pinpoint you and your Whnau. Going back generations and generations and it's really, it's a real special thing to have.

Yeah, that's definitely something that is missing in a lot of other global cultures, clearly. I think, I mean it also gives that sense of connection to place as well, which again, I think the modern Western world, you know, I kind of reflect back. So my grandmother on my dad's side, she lived at number 16 Beulah street in Rumley and then she moved to number 18 Beulah street in Rumley. And then just before she passed away since South Wales, just before she sort of, she was getting to the end of her life, she moved a fair distance away to a market town called Abu Gave Eddie where my dad was living. But we're still probably talking within 60 minutes. So, you know, she basically spent her whole life living in a 60 minute radius. And then I look at my dad's generation, you know, he left the South Wales Valleys and got to go to university in London. So that was his geographic extension. And then you know me as like a third generation. I now live on the other side of the planet. And the connection to place I have is, is pretty thin because, okay, I've been living in New Zealand for 20 years, but I've lived in Auckland, I've lived in Christchurch, I've moved, I think we've moved houses, I don't know, probably 10 or 15 times since I've been in New Zealand. So real lack, I think, you know, the modern world, it's almost primed for us to have a, a lack of connection to people in place.

I, I agree. Yeah, I agree totally.

Like part of the pipiha is identifying these particular landmarks as well. So and these landmarks like our, our monga or our mountain, they are kind of real cultural, they give a lot of cultural significance actually to who we are as well because we have stories around all these places with our mountains and our rivers and.

Yeah, there's stories in each, each of those places, like the river is where we get our food and our water from. And mountains are often seen as quite, having quite spiritual significance as well. So yeah, it goes a little, it goes even deeper than just, you know, these connections.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, super cool. So I guess on the background of that and we've got to, you know, we kind of know maybe more deeply about who you are, where you come from than actually what you do, which is where we normally start with a podcast guest, but that's pretty cool. So you're here today mainly to talk about the amazing b Corp brand that you, you run called Oku. So, yeah, do you want to tell us a bit about what that's all all about?

Yeah. So obviously I'm Helen Paul Smith, co founder of OKU New Zealand and we're a B Corp certified company that produces a range of high quality and award products, wellness products from the native plants of Aotearoa, Native plants of New Zealand. And we're hoping to take those plants or those, sorry, those products to the world. I was just going to hold these up here for our people who can see. These are some of our New Zealand native herbal teas and these are our gift boxes that are about to come out of our herbal tea range.

Very cool and great to see the little, see the little B logo on the side of it. That's what we want.

Here we go, we've got the little B logo somewhere. Where are we?

There we go.

And so my business is based on Mori principles as well. So the knowledge. Well, I started off as a Ayurvedic practitioner and yoga teacher over 20 years ago. So that's where my herbal knowledge originally came from.

The traditional medicine of India. And then I started to learn more about my own cultural healing system, it's called Rongoa. And starting to learn more about the plants that grow here in New Zealand and their healing properties. One of those plants that people around the world may be familiar with is Manuka. We've got, you know, world famous Manuka honey and it's famous for its antimicrobial and antibacterial properties which come from the actual plant. And the plant itself has been used traditionally by Mori for hundreds of years. It's an incredible plant with incredible properties. But there's a whole, we have a whole beautiful forest, rainforest full of indigenous plants that only grow here in New Zealand that have amazing health benefits. And so one of the purposes of setting up ORCU was to help to bring recognition to these plants and their amazing qualities and to create wellness products from them. So to make them more accessible for other people.

Nice. Super cool. So I mean, what got you into the, you know, the Indian Ayurvedic kind of stuff to begin with? Like, have you, have you.

I always like to try.

Yeah, I always like to try and work out because I think there's, there's a lot of people like me who were on a very corporate path from a very early start in life, you know, due to upbringing, schooling, education, what have you. So you'll go to university, get a degree, you get a good job, you know, you try and earn as much money as you can, you have a, you know, have a big life. There's quite a few people we've spoken to who've been on that path who have a big, well I call it the existential wet fish to the face moment where they get a real slap across the face by the universe and it's like on the wrong path. What am I doing with my life? But then there's others who you know, were just born and born and raised in a culture or you know, by a family who were really nurturing and very purpose driven and it was all about doing from day one. And I think it's just always interesting to, to see. Yeah, you kind of came down.

Yeah, well I, I definitely had one of those slaps in the face.

So yeah, my, my father died when I was quite young and it had quite a detrimental effect on my mum.

So as a consequence I feel like I did a lot of the bringing up of myself from quite a young age and didn't really know how to bring myself up. Teenage years where you need quite a bit of guidance.

And I sort of, I turned to alcohol quite a lot and.

I did my OE in my 20s, in my early 20s and just was the party girl.

And I wasn't underneath it all like it looked like I was really happy and really sociable but I was drinking way too much drinking to pass out and underneath it all I wasn't happy. And what changed for me was I'd always had an interest in yoga and actually my mother was a yoga teacher way back in the 70s and we were brought up in National Park Village which for those of you who don't know it's in the central North Island. We've got three mountains nearby and it's a, it's a big national park area. So ours brought up sort of there and she used to teach yoga in the school and the. Yeah there's a hall, a little hall there. And I used to be as a child fascinated with her yoga books. So I used to just sit and look at the pictures and be just fascinated from like I remember like even 2, 3, 4 years old. So yes I was going through this self destructive path. I was on my big O E and I started to do yoga. There was a yoga school around the corner from where I was living in Scotland.

And I just became.

It was just a really grounding practice for me back this is back in the 90s before yoga is what it is today. Like yoga's everywhere at that time it.

Was like, sort of cool and trendy.

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't cool and trendy. And it was. Yeah, there was no Lululemon. You know, we wore just real casual stuff and people. It was quite on the fringe. And like, so people say, oh, what do you do yoga for? You know, a bit weir, but I found that it just gave me real grounding and balance to my life. And then the more I started practicing, the more I kind of realized, okay, the lifestyle that I'm living is actually destroying me.

And to the point where I eventually had to make a choice. It's either I'm going to go down the yoga path or I, you know, and I need to let go of this party lifestyle, drinking all the time, going out all the time, or, you know, the two don't. The two don't go together. And so I decided to change my ways and then take a trip to India, where I did some trekking in the Himalayas in Nepal and also studied yoga over there. And that took me on. On quite a big yoga journey when I came back to New Zealand and I became a yoga teacher. And I've studied in India three times, Yoga. And that's what then brought me onto the Ayurvedic path as well.

Wow. So, yeah, you were fairly ahead of the curve in terms of connecting into that sort of Eastern spirituality, yoga, medicine side of things.

Yes, yeah. Because, you know, even Ayurvedic medicine back then, no one had really heard of it. And over here anyway.

So, yeah, I was about on the fringe, you could say, but on the fringe. But nowadays, not nowadays, not so much.

Yeah. And so Ayurvedic medicine, give us the 101 on that because I think I have some idea, but I probably have it completely wrong. Equally, that's where.

Yes, the traditional healing system of India, it's over 5,000 years old. It's. Yeah, I don't actually know how old it is, but it's based on, like, a tridosic theory of vata, pitta and kapha. So the body's got three main energies. Vata, which is ether, and air, kapha, which is like fire. And then, sorry, pitta, which is like the fire element or the fire element, and then kapha, which is like water and earth. And so it's all about bringing balance into. Into those energies that are in your body through lifestyle and diet and herbal medicine. Basically. That's the quick 100, 101.

Yeah. If anyone wants to go deeper on that, I'm sure there's. Nowadays, there's YouTube channels and resources and practice. I mean, do you still do any of the practitioning if people want to talk to you about any of that stuff, or are you kind of like, I'm pretty busy making teas and I'm.

Really busy making tea. I don't even have much time, that much time for yoga in my life anym more, unfortunately, as a founder. And I'm sure there's some founders out there listening to this, nodding their heads, like, your business.

Takes up a lot of your time.

It consumes, yeah, it consumes.

Yeah. One of my. The ones I always look back on and think about is Jamie Cashmore, who runs a big org in Auckland called Twice. They do edible coffee cups. And you know, it's a startup business in a new industry that hasn't really existed before. He's running it as a family business. It's him, his dad, his mom and his wife and they're trying to do it with impact. It's like you could not pick a harder business to do. You know, it's like all of those on their own are hard. You put all of them together.

And it's a similar thing with us because there's no, there was no infrastructure when we started and still very, very limited infrastructure for creating these products. So we've had to, you can probably see outside, that's our lifestyle block. We've had to plant all these plants ourselves.

And so we, we grow the plants. We've got 100 plants arriving this afternoon, which I'll be spending the weekend planting, but we're always planting, so we've had to plant the plants, grow the plants, we harvest our plants sustainably according to.

Mori practices and then we dry the material and then we process the material into our products. So we're not just contract manufacturing, we're doing from the planting to like the tea tube kind of thing. Well, yeah, we're doing the whole lot. And there's. We're a small team as well. Yeah.

How big is the team?

Oh, there's five of us and then we had some. We have some independent contractors that come in and help us as well for like half thing and things like that.

Yeah.

Still we're still very small, still. Still very niche and doing everything from literally grass roots, literally from the Ritz.

But that's really cool because, you know, it's got, it's got that providence. It's, you know, if it didn't pass the quality test, it's because Helen said it's not good enough. Rather than, you know, some of these global beverage, food and beverage empires where that's been outsourced way down the chain. And I think for me, it's always when you sort of talk about purpose and meaning or when I talk about purpose, not everyone talks about purpose and meaning. Like the providing food and sustenance to another human being really has to be up there in terms of one of the most purposeful things that you can do. And yet in the modern world, again, it's been commoditized. It's, you know, fast food, it's, you know, we care less about the, you know, if you probably. I could name a large global chain of fast food brands, you know, pick your, pick your poison on that one. You know, they're not actually concerned about quality and nutrition. It's about speed and cost and profit maximization. And I think the food industry is such a great example of how, you know, more broadly, you know, thinking of business for good B corps in the world, having that level of care and provenance and that connection to the Maori principles and the, you know, the depth of care and love that's in each packet that gets shipped rather than it just being, you know. Yeah, let's compromise because let's be honest, the vast majority of food retailers are compromising on input material and quality to maximize profitability.

Yeah.

The core essence of the product is new, you know, is providing nutrients to another human.

We have like, what's called a quadruple bottom line. So we have our cultural aspect, which is how are our cultural practices being preserved? And then we have our social aspect, which is how is this business benefiting? Whnau hap iwi mori. We have our environmental part as well, like, how are we taking care of Papatuanuku, our Earth mother, for future generations? And then of course, we have the, you know, we have to be profitable as well, otherwise we can't sustain a business. So, yeah, that's what we call our quadruple bottom line for fantastic business. Yeah.

And so have you considered how you're going to maintain this at scale? Like it's. Could, could you. Do you believe you can achieve, like, total global domination if that's what you're aiming for? Or, you know, because there's, at some point there's going to be that possibly that compromise place where you go, actually, you know, Helen or Helen 2.0 can't actually look at all the plants that we've just planted. A check, you know, and we have to. We might have to hand that out to a third party or.

Yeah.

What do You? Yeah. Have you?

Yeah, yeah, we, we have, yeah. We, we start with the supply. So you know, like I said, we've had to plant most of our supply and, or we've got people in the community who live on native plant blocks that sustainably harvest for us. But as the business grows, you know, we're always looking for more supply but we actually need to be planting more, plant more native plants in this country for environmental reasons and to help protect our waterways. So there's quite a big movement around planting around waterways at the moment. So one of the.

Problems that I see a solution to is working with these landowners who are having to regenerate land around their waterways and we can use that land instead of just having it as a non profitable source, we can actually harvest from that and turn it into our products as well. So there's some ongoing.

Collaborations in that area. So we start with, you know, where can we.

How can we grow naval? How can we. In terms of growing the business? Yeah, but you know there, there may come a time where we have to contract manufacture some of our products out and we will just sort of deal with that as it, as it happens. Yeah, yeah.

That's super cool. Do you have you come across a lady called Beck Smith who runs a B corp down in Ranfurly called the whole story?

I have not, no I haven't.

So she's all about helping farmers. Well, I say she's all about that. She's one of these massively overachieving humans. She's you know, a mum, wife, farmer, vet and she runs her own consulting business helping farmers do more sustainability more easily. So she will probably have a bunch of connections with the, with like minded farmers who might be interested in obviously subject, subject to.

The soil conditions being conducive to what you need. But yeah, I'll make that intro, that'll be great.

I mean I see huge potential there.

This, you know, the land regeneration that needs to happen in this country and how we can actually use that land for.

Making amazing products.

Totally. I was emceeing a conference last weekend. It's a really, really cool conference currently called Enviropast but might be going through a rebrand. Watch this space. It's a conference run by youth for youth and the topic this year was kind of, I guess sustainability and the urban environment. And we had a talk from Christchurch City Council.

Can't remember the gentleman's name off top of my head anyway, but he was talking about, I was quite shocked, you know Christchurch, where I'm based in south island of New Zealand. It used to be called the Garden City is kind of one of its names. We have the lowest level of tree canopy coverage of any of the major cities in New Zealand. And I was shocked by that because it is quite a green city and there are quite a few trees. And they, I think this year they're aiming to plant 5,000 trees. And as part of that, it's like, yes, we're, we want to have 100% native, but I wouldn't. I mean, here we had the, the big red zone where we had the massive earthquake, like it. Whenever it was 10, 12 years ago.

Yeah.

Large parts of that have just been taken over by fruit. You know, fruit trees that are in people's gardens have just, you know, kind of gone crazy. But yeah, you just connecting all the dots. It seems like you're really onto something here and obviously you're driving it. But I think it's something that more people need to get their sort of head out of the business and go, right, hang on a minute. How do we work with other people for shared wins? And I think that's something that the B corp community probably does slightly better on average because we're just tuned to thinking about bigger, you know, bigger. A bigger cause and solving the problem.

Yeah. And it's that. Cause that is, that connects us all together, I think.

Yeah.

And gives us, you know, that common purpose.

So what was, was there like the moment when you were okay. You were like, okay, we're going to bag some stuff, we're going to sell some tea today. Like, what, what was that process like? You're obviously doing the yoga and the ayurved dick medicine.

Yeah.

Talk us through. And, and, and who's the co founder and. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, I think we just lost. You're back. Sorry we lost you there for a second, but you're back.

Therapies in the year 2000. That's in. Great. That was in Graylin at the time. That's where I met my husband Scott, who's a medical herbalist and naturopath, and he was studying naturopathy and medical herbalism. And it was really. My orcu is the.

Is my, my husband's creation from the beginning because he, when he qualified as a herbalist and naturopath, he was working with all these.

Amazing, incredible herbs from all around the world. And he was like, why, why are we using all these? I mean, they're good herbs, but why aren't we using what's grown right here in our own back doorstep? And One of the fundamental things that you learn in herbal medicine, and that's what we learned in Ayurvedic medicine as well, is that the plants that grow in your own country have the same vibration, are of a similar vibration to you and those are the plants that you should use first and foremost for treating different ailments. And so, so he was like, you know, why are we using all these other herbs? You've got all this, all these amazing, incredible herbs growing on our own doorstep. And it was really him who.

Has always been tinkering around with different herbs and creating products that came up with the product range. And we just started planting native plants and then selling our herbal teas at the Tauranga farmers markets. And at the time we also had a beverage, a carbonated beverage which had Kawakawa, which is one of.

Oh, we've lost you a little bit there.

Oh, back, back again, sorry.

There we go. Yeah, so local markets.

Yeah, we had a Kawakawa drinks and our Kawakawa teas. That's how we started. Started. It started there and it just grew.

And what year was that?

That was 15 years ago.

Nice.

So Orcu was very much a side hustle and something that we did in the weekends and then eventually Scott was working full time on the business and then I think it was like three years ago I joined him full time and now we've got our staff of five full timers.

Nice. It got real.

Yeah, it got real. But it was pretty much a side hustle for a long time. And a lot of that has to do with the planting of our plants and waiting for them to mature and harvesting and having enough land and.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's not like unless you've just got billions of dollars, it's not very easy to go and yeah. Get the land. And even if you did have the money, like you say, you've got to wait for the plants to actually grow and develop and if you have a bad harvest, etc. Etc. You know, I guess you've got a lot of factors that can determine the pace at which you can, you can do anything in that regard. Yeah.

And there's. There's also been quite a big educational process in New Zealand. So when we first started in the farmers markets, nobody really knew what kawakawa was apart from Mori, that's in New Zealand. So for the international guests, Kawakawa looks like this plant here, it's heart shaped leaves, it's highly anti inflammatory.

But it's quite. Most New Zealanders know what Kawakawa is. Now they've heard of Kawakawa Balm. They've heard the name Kawakawa. So that's like 15 years on, but 15 years ago it wasn't, it wasn't like that. So we've had to do quite a lot of education around.

Oh, we lost you again a little bit. There you go.

So we've had to, we've had to do. Yeah, we've had to do quite a bit of work in, in terms of reintroducing these plants back into New Zealand society.

Nice. But I mean, it's. I guess in some ways it's sad that you kind of had to do that, but equally it must be quite meaningful and fulfilling to have played a big role in.

Yeah, absolutely. And now we're about to launch into Australia. I feel like we're back at those Tauranga farmers markets again where, oh, people don't know what this is, what these plants are. And we're having to do that education process from the start. And it makes you realize how far our knowledge as a country of the native plants has come. In 15 years it's. And it's, there's been quite a good progression.

And obviously, do you think the Manuka honey explosion has, has played a role in that? Because I think, I mean, even when my dad, he's passed away now, but you know, he would get Manuka honey in the supermarket in the UK 10 years ago and, and yeah, everyone was talking about it. You know, it was the thing. I'm.

I'm sure it has had a role to play. And for us, we kind of play off Manuka when we're going into those international markets. So we'll kind of like lead with this one, which is like our Manuka tea. So we're not completely foreign to people.

Yep.

And this is our biggest selling tea to our New Zealand tourists as well. So we're stocked in places like Alia, duty free stores and nice different tourist outlets and things, gift shops. And it's the Manuka that the tourists will naturally go for first.

Yeah, like bees attracted to the Manuka.

Bees attracted to the Manuka. Although Manuka isn't their favorite flower, but.

It'S definitely, it's definitely leading the way and bringing awareness to some of our native plants or our botanicals.

Nice. Super, super cool. That's cool. Cool story. It's like I said, the. There's been quite a few people we've spoken to on the podcast recently who similar kind of backstories where it's like we Just gave it a go. We took a couple of. We took a couple of things to a market. People liked it. Okay. We realized we might have a thing and they just kept going. And yeah, partly this is why I do this podcast. You know, who knows, there's someone who might be listening in who's got a startup and they're going, oh, I kind of want to be a B corp, but I don't know if I can. I'm not big enough or what do I do that's like, well, just keep going, you know, and good things will come.

And the farmers, the farmers markets are really good. A really good way to test the market and a really lovely place to start, you know, and you're getting that, you know, which we don't have so much anymore. But I used to love being right at the face, talking to your consumers, getting that feedback, that pure feedback. Yeah. And just constantly talking to people. Constantly. There's something to be said about that, one on one contact with your consumers.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, you can even see their reaction to the branding, to everything and taste tests and. Yeah. And again, I think that's something that as businesses scale, they lose. I've mentioned it a few times on the podcast, but, you know, I love those. When the CEOs go back to the shop floor undercover, you know, the undercover CEO and they're shocked and appalled.

Yeah.

How bad the conditions are for the staff and how the new technology platform they just launched is rubbish and no one likes it and no one can use it. And they're like, did you, did you, did you do any kind of stakeholder catchment at any point before you.

No.

You know, someone with a spreadsheet just decided that made the most sense from a profit loss perspective. So we just launched it. It's like, fantastic.

Oh, removal way from the ground to the top, you know?

Yeah.

One of the things I used to love about doing the farmers markets was the feedback I'd get from different Mori, who would come and I'd say, oh, my Nan used this Kawakawa for me when I used to get headaches and she put it on my head and then in the morning the leaf would be black and she'd be like, there's the headache. See, it's all gone. And just the stories that were shared about how Nan used to use it for this and my uncle used it for that. And I really enjoyed hearing all those different ways that the, the herbs being used that you wouldn't. You can't find that information from books. These are just Stories that are passed down from generations.

So do you capture any stories and, and kind of use them as part of your story or not? Not so much.

Not so much. But.

But they're, yeah, they're just, they're part of the Orku journey. You know, I see them as part of the Orku journey. Part of the, part of the, any kind of knowledge that's been passed down to us about these plants and how they were used traditionally is, is very much a gift for us, for me and Scott, and we're very respectful of that knowledge that's been handed to us and that it's been entrusted with us as well.

Yeah, a gift and a burden, I guess, in some ways, like, you've got to make sure you're, you're, I have no doubt you would still stay respectful, but it's, I guess it's a. Burden's probably the wrong word. It's, it's like a.

Responsibility.

Responsibility.

Yeah, there is.

Which I think is good, though. It puts that pressure on you to, to maintain that and not sell out.

Oh, yeah, exactly. And I, I, I think our business is more about, you know, the business Orcu is bigger than Scott and I. We're just being privileged enough to come on the journey for this amount of time with. But I think it's got its own life force and it's, yeah, let's see where it, where it goes. But we've, we've been privileged to be guardians for it, I guess, and started off on its journey.

Nice. Very cool. And so clearly, you know, I mean, the quadruple bottom line that you've talked about was that something that you had, you know, was baked in from day one, or was that something that kind of evolved over time.

Being plugged in from day one? So Scott and I have both been trained in the rongoa or in the traditional mori medicinal native herbal medicine. And part of learning about the plants is also learning the practices around how we treat them and how we treat our environment.

So that's how we treat our environment, how we treat the land, and the importance of that is very much embedded in our learnings, and then that's filtered through into the business that we've created.

So that's, yeah, that's been with us from the start, and that's been, that's been what's guided us on our business journey.

Was that ever a part of your broader sort of education background, or was it, was it just through the connection with the sort of native medicinal community that that became a thing?

Yeah, it was more when we started to learn more about these native plants and the people that taught us.

Special people that have come into our lives who have passed on knowledge have kind of installed.

Really good principles into us around caring for Papatuanuku or our earth mother and our plants and the environment. And that's always been the way of our ancestors. So even when New Zealand was covered in New Zealand native bush, they still made sure that they treated the plants with respect, that they communicated with the plants, that any leftover plant material went back into the soil. There was such a strong environmental practice that went on with our ancestors and that gets passed down when you learn about the rongua or the native plants.

And it's. I just kind of really love this connection between, you know, traditional ways of thinking and doing and then increasingly, you know, the scientific, rational, western approach and how they're actually increasingly they come together and it's. Which is where I think that this, this massive overlap between B Corp principles and Tehra Maori principles. It's like. Well yeah.

But it also, you know, I've mentioned it again a few times on the various events, you know, when we go back, I mean so your surname is Smith. So from, from a western lens, at some point in your ancestry there was possibly a blacksmith, you know, which is where you've taken your name from. And the idea that if, you know, if you were the blacksmith in the local community, if you were knocking out really bad horseshoes and really bad, I don't know, swords or whatever, it's not long before people go, you know dude, your, your stuff's just not, it's not great. So. And then if they were doing, I mean obviously environmental regulations in medieval Europe probably quite lacks but you know, if they were just dumping hot steel or hot iron waste, you know, into the street that people were going to get burnt on again. It's not long before people go hey dude, that's, that's not cool. Like can you find somewhere, you know, more responsible to get rid of it or can you recycle it? You know, and again it probably be there probably as much recycling done back in. Maybe I need to redo the research on this. But it feels like the older principles that we've lost in the last hundred years where it's all, it's just all been about, you know, just consume, you know, do as much as you can and don't worry about connection to community and planet. But it, it just makes sense that why would you disregard how you could benefit your local community as a business? Because if you're, if you're acting against them, they don't want you there. And it's not long before you will be kind of run out of town. If you're particularly, I think particularly product based companies like yours.

It'S kind of more, more obvious how you can play a role in environmental protection and sustainability because your very product is coming out of the earth. But I think it makes it interesting then to go for someone like me who runs a service company where I don't touch, I don't have a physical product that comes out of the earth. But how can we apply those same principles of regeneration and putting back and minimizing footprint? And I think that's, it's. Yeah, just, I think we're in a really interesting world in the business community where more and more people are kind of going actually the way that sort of Helen and Scott run their business. That's just really cool. And it makes, it clearly makes sense and you're getting good support and you're having this connection with the community and they're telling you the stories and you know, that's just really cool. Like why wouldn't you want to be a part of that? As opposed to what I call like, you know, the big evil bastards who. We're just here to sell as much product as we can and if we actively destroy a community.

Yeah, you know, okay, exactly. And I think and bringing it back to the B Corp certification.

Like originally when that was brought up with us, I was like, we don't need this because we're already, we know what we're doing. We're already being sustainable. This is like the foundation of our business. And I don't need to like just have a piece of paper to tell me that I'm doing what I'm already doing. So that was my attitude when I first started.

And I hadn't. We had a customer manager from New Zealand Trade and Enterprise who could see the benefit of us becoming B Corp certified. And she had to kind of work around my preconceived ideas about B Corp and gently, gently prod away at, just gently prod away at me until I finally, I actually did the.

What's the program called? The B for Good. The business for good she got, she encouraged us to do business for good. And it's once I did that program that I realized, okay, this is amazing. This is going to give validity to what we're doing and it's also going to help us, you know, improve our standards as well.

Oh, just lost you a Little bit there again. There we go again.

It was a really eye opening process to go through. But one of the main things that stood out for us was that there wasn't very much that I don't think we really needed to change any of our processes that we do in our business. Because. Because our business was steeped in Matauranga Mori or Mori worldview practices. We were doing so many beautiful environmental and sustainable practices that we didn't need to change anything for going through the B Corp process. It was more about just making sure we've got our policies and things like that written up. But it really. Yeah. Having our business as an indigenous business really helped us get through that whole B Corp process, which was really awesome.

Yeah. I mean, I would have been shocked if you hadn't got B Corp very easily. Something is not computing here. Yeah. Were there, were there any particular areas though that you. That you were kind of surprised with? Like, oh, actually we haven't thought about that. You know, were there any particular parts of B Corp that made you go, hang on, we need to be better here?

Definitely. With our systems and policies, just having those written up. Like, we just kind of did things without having it like formalized as part of our business structure.

I definitely remember that being the main part of my work in getting through the certification process was doing a lot of writing.

Yeah. There was some other, there were some other little things that we could do better and that we're going to aim for for next time around.

We haven't got the carbon neutral certification yet, so we're, we're working with Ekos on doing that as.

And yeah, there's definitely, there's always things that you can improve and I can't think of anything else specifically right now, but there's definitely things going through that B process that we can work on in the future. Yeah. Which is. That's the beauty of it as well. Yeah, that, that's the beauty of it. Like we just keep working towards better and better all the time and that's there to help guide us on what else we can do to improve the way that we're doing things already.

Totally. That's why, you know, the coaching program that we have for B Corp clients, we call it Be Better. It's like use the B Corp framework to just be a better business every day.

Yeah.

I think that's something that a lot of people kind of go, oh, you know, we couldn't be a B Corp. Because I've just heard about how awesome Helen's business is and they're going to check your website out and go, oh my gosh, like, yeah, there's no way we could be a B corp, but actually you quite possibly could be a B corp. It's just, just about, you know, playing to your strengths, doing, doing do as much good as you can, you know, with what you've got without, like you say, we still, in this current economic system, we need to have that profit piece. So do what you can with what you've got to do the most good that you can and then over time grow your good, be better. Away you go.

It's exactly. And we're all on this journey and we're all trying to improve all the time, you know, and as the system allows us and as better practices become available to some of our businesses, then it begins, it becomes easier. But it's all a journey. And yeah, it's just about starting a, starting 100%, 100%.

And I think that's where a lot of people, it's almost like that, you know, freeze reaction in, in a state of, you know, frenzy or dangerous like, oh, we're not going to be good enough or we, we better not start or, you know, what if we don't pass it? Or what if we're not good enough? It's like, that's just, you know, you just got to start, you know, just give it a go. I love, I love my. Sorry. Now you go.

Oh, I was going to say that's the, that's where the importance of someone like yourself or, and like my NZT customer manager and the Business for Good program is really vital because you're helping people like me, like, see the benefits of, of this whole B Corp journey. Whereas before, if I hadn't had my NCT customer manager, like prompting me and prompting me, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have taken on this journey. So, yeah.

You'Re out there growing the good.

That's what it's all about. What it's all about.

So I guess you what any, any sort of direct benefits of B Corp so far? You know, what does, I guess, and I guess, secondary question, what does kind of B Corp mean to you as an organization? Because it's interesting, I think it's quite cool that you were reticent, but now you're kind of, you're in it. I think that that's just interesting.

So what it means to me is that it's like I'm part of a collective now of businesses that have been through quite a rigorous sustainability assessment and it gives recognition to our sustainability practices. And it kind of shows that we are walking the talk.

And that's really important in this day and age where everyone's just kind of jumping on that sustainability wagon. It's the validity that that B Corp gives us.

Yeah. At the moment.

Sort of floating with some ideas around. Okay, so how can this benefit Mori more? Because I'm always coming from this indigenous lens. How can we.

Use B Corp to leverage businesses like mine and help support more businesses like mine that are Mori based, that are doing everything sustainably? How can we help more of them come through this channel and become B Corp certified? And how can more of us come together and support each other through this process? And how can B Lab. How can B Lab support indigenous businesses more as well? So not just Mori, but other indigenous communities around the world. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm at moving forward and where my thoughts are.

You just started working with a company. I won't name names. We literally did day one with him yesterday. But they're based in the far north in Northland and there is no B Corp in the. In the far north. And when this organization was talking to some NZTE equivalent type organizers. So for people outside of New Zealand, NZTE is New Zealand Trade and Enterprise. It's a government, I guess funded department that tries to help Kiwi businesses with export potential maximize that potential by providing trading, possibly some funding, support and resources to get them into global markets. And there's a few other agencies like that that we have in New Zealand and this one that this company connected to, they were kind of like, I don't know what this B Corp thing is, but when they had initial, when the client had initial conversation, they were like, okay, yeah, actually this sounds pretty cool.

Cool.

So yeah, we're willing to support you, you know, on this journey. And even just after day one yesterday, they're kind of like, wow, this is. Now that they've kind of got under the hood a bit more and B Corp, they're kind of like, okay, this is actually really, really cool. This is exactly what we're looking for. So I'll connect you with that company. And there's probably a couple of others I can think of actually that if you haven't already connected to.

Where you. There's some, possibly some overlap with a couple of companies where you might have got some similar products. But also enough non overlap that I think there's. Yeah, I think a potential big opportunity is obviously sourcing material. Like there's a bunch of companies where you know, they might not be fully as in on Manuka, but they might have a small, you know, piece of Manuka in one product. And so how can you all work together to create that community and local impact? Because that's what I mean, that's the, that's. It's really interesting what you're doing as well, because there's a load of companies that we've helped on their B corp journey where they're, you know, New Zealand made, but they're massively reliant on imported raw, raw materials because we just can't. For whatever, you know, you just can't grow the product either due to climate or soul quality, soul types, whatever. And so it'd be interesting to sort of work out with some of those companies. Well, you know, is there a substitute? Is there something that actually gives the same flavor or outcome? But yeah, that's like a whole other industry.

Yeah, but there's a lot of scope. Hey, there's a lot of scope in what we're doing. Like, I feel like we're just scratching the surface and yeah, we could do a whole lot of good. We're currently doing some research. Well, some work with plant and food around restorative projects, which is really cool and exciting. And then we're also doing another project with, with ag research.

Of some research and development around the natives as well. So we're doing the research side of things at the same time and looking at better ways of like regenerating plants as well. So yeah, there's huge scope. Huge scope in many directions.

100%. 100%. Which is. It's kind of.

Yes, it's. It's like, it's beautiful, but at the same time it's like, ah, got enough on my plate. Just keeping the plate spinning in my own business.

It's interesting. Like, well, we do, we do other things in herbal tea, but we're mostly known for our herbal tea range. And it's like if you only knew what was going on at the back end of this herbal tea company. You know, it's, you know, the herb, the actual tea is only a small part. There's a huge story that's going on at the back end. Yeah, yeah. And that's just the face is the tea.

Do you feel you tell that story though?

Yeah, I'm getting better at it and I'm getting better at finding channels to tell that story through. Like I used to try and, and tell that story on Instagram and it never, I don't know, I didn't have Quite the right audience, but I'm finding a much better audience on LinkedIn. Interesting podcasts like, like your one there. I'm going to be on a panel for the Sustainable Business Network symposium that's coming up soon. So yeah, I'm getting better at being.

In situations where I'm reaching a really good audience because it's interesting.

Do you know Lucy Butler from Health Post that. Do you stock any of your products with them?

Yes, yes.

So I interviewed Lucy a couple of weeks ago for the podcast and I think this is, you're probably in the same area of challenge that she, she was talking about how it's really hard to, to do marketing when you have got big compelling stories. But TikTok and Instagram want a three second clip that's like, hey, buy this product. It's really cool. And it's, it's like so true. It's like, yeah, it's really cool but it's also got some really crap ingredients and you're only buying it because there's some influencer's face on it that's selling you. It's cool, but actually it's kind of made in a pretty horrific manner. And you know, the big box retailer that's selling it is probably not paying their staff living wage, you know, like, you know, all apart, but it's, it's hard to. Yeah. So anyone who's listening who can help Helen, Lucy and others nail the TikTok Instagram. Yeah, it's a really cool problem.

Yeah. And then on top of, we're really restricted on what we're allowed to say about our products. Like our adults chest elixir used to be called the cough and chest elixir. We're not allowed to use the word cough. We're not allowed to say exactly what it's for. We kind of have to use these really descriptive words and our Kawakawa balm, like I, I can't write, oh, this is really good for eczema. I have to like talk around what the product is for.

Is that because it needs like TGA approval or.

Yeah.

Therapeutic goods approval for medicinal use.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, there's, there's all these restrictions on what you can and can't say. So we've got, we have to deal with that as well. But what I wanted to talk about, well, what I want to say about Health Post is they were the ones that first introduced us to B Corp. So I mean, big shout out to them. They were onto this like years ago.

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. They certified like 2018 or something like way, way back, way, way back.

And they were, they were like. And they've, they've been really amazing at pushing or, you know, not pushing, but encouraging other businesses to go down the sustainability path. So when we were trying to become a wholesaler to them. So for those of you who don't know who Health Post is, it's kind of like the largest online New Zealand wellbeing health and wellbeing product products business. And so they were a really important target for us to get our products stocked with them. And we went through a supplier appraisal where they asked, are you B Corp certified? And we're like, oh, okay, what is this? And that's what sort of. Yeah, that's what introduced us to the process. But they have always been encouraging of our business to be care to pick up on sustainable practices. They, they support indigenous brands as well. And so we've just found them amazing and they're doing a lot of amazing work out there in the environment as well.

Yeah, the amount of research, yeah, massive. I mean, it was. I mean, when the interview's live, you should totally check it out because whether, you know, the full backstory. But it's really interesting because the business, it's. There's this. I think there's a link here between you and Lucy as well that, that Lucy started a business because, well, her mum started the business and she was, you know, like this young, kind of feisty south island classic. I'm just gonna take on the world and, you know, show them what's what. She was really struggling. She had a bunch of health issues weren't being solved by the, you know, traditional healthcare system. So she started just making her own, you know, treatments. And then people locally similar, similar to you, people locally were kind of like, hey, can I have some of that? So she started selling it locally, then they were selling it mail order. And I think. And I kind of.

Sort of teased this out of Lucy a little bit. I said, well, you know, do you find, is there a sense of meaning and purpose maybe subconsciously in the fact that you're supporting a lot of other smaller retailers with your platform? Because basically that's what your mum did. Like you're giving back to the community in, in a way that if your mum had had that 30 years ago, her life would have been a whole lot easier rather than literally, you know, taking phone orders and all the rest of it. So, yeah, it's really cool. And, and it just again, you know, compare. Compared how, how they operate compared to the big box retailers who just. This is about profit margin and, you know, selling as many products and they've got their influences on their ad campaigns. You know, come and buy your cheap chemist stuff from us. Whereas, you know, I know that Lucy goes, she, she looks at the businesses like yours and goes, well, hang on a minute, where, where are you getting your ingredients from? From? What's your packaging like? And she talked about how, you know, they have destocked or delisted products and companies because they don't make the standard. And you kind of go, would you rather be buying your stuff there or through some big box retailer where no one in the shop is even to give you any basic advice on whether this thing's working or not? Yeah, just. It's like incomparable. But.

But it mostly is. It totally is. Yeah. I, I love her story. Actually. Her story is quite similar to my husband Scott. So he, he's got a hereditary kidney condition. So that was his in the face. And he, he was working in IT in the UK when his kidneys failed.

And he had to go into dialysis. He had to come home and go into dialysis. And he did a complete kind of like career change. And that's how he ended up studying herbal medicine. And it's been herbal medicine that's kind of helped support him get through his health challenges as well, as well as the orthodox medical system, definitely. But herbal medicine and combined has really helped him be the person that he is today. And Orku's been developed all the way through his kidney journey. He's been on dialysis. We've been able to, I don't know how we've done it, really create this business, grow these plants from grassroots to everything.

Yeah, yeah. So similar story there too.

That's super cool. But I think again that that for me it's that sense of meaning and purpose. It's, you know. Yes, yes, there's a, you could argue selfishness to the. I want to solve this problem for myself initially, and that's reasonable. Like, I'm not being supported by the healthcare system in a way that's giving me the, the outcome that I need. So, okay, I'm gonna, you know, research this, look it for myself. But I guess that again, subconsciously, I'll kind of try and tease it out of you two. You know, there will be that depth of meaning and purpose in that. Well, what if someone having our tea or one of our bombs actually does get better and they were really struggling. Like we've struggled. So I I think again, it's. Sometimes it's the wood for the trees with, with really cool companies, you're just, you're doing it because you just do it. But sometimes I think companies like yours actually, you do need to step back and go, oh, hang on a minute. Actually this is actually really good. And there is a, there is a depth of meaning and purpose to what we're doing. But I think for you are, you know, you are like a gold star B Corp in that regard in that you were doing this before B Corp was even a thing.

Where, you know, there are other companies that have to transition and you know, not demeaning that journey or saying one journey is better than the other, but I. There is always clearly a deeper sense of purpose and meaning to the, to the B Corps like yours that have, that have come into this through that depth of connection to the thing you're trying to solve. Whereas if, if you were kind of like, hey, you know, your next 10 competitors who go, hang on a minute, or who have really nailed this, you know, native, indigenous healing market, we want a slice of that. That's, that's a whole different vibe to, we're genuinely committed to this thing and we've dug up our backyard to do this. Like your next 10 competitors aren't gonna do that because they just don't care as much as you do. And I think that's the essence. And again, this is the same, you know, with kind of Lucy's like, that's the essence that you need to get people to connect to because no one can steal that. And that is so, you know, authentic and truly purpose driven that you can't copy that. And that's your secret sauce. But it's tough to tell that story in anything less than three hours.

And there's so much in that story as well. It's like, oh my God, we've got the indigenous story, we've got the regeneration story. We've got. Yeah, I don't know so much in that story. How do we. Yeah. So anyway, someone out there that's listening might be like, oh, I know what you do. I've got the answer.

Yeah, I've just recently connected with a lady in Wanaka who shout out to Nadia. So she's just done a masters on impact communications and storytelling with a lens on the B Corp community. And so she's just, she's just written her thesis. I'm happy to connect you. Yeah. As well with, with her because she's got some ideas as to, you know, how to Crack this.

I would love some ideas on how to crack this because that's, that's, it's so important for our business. But yeah, I think I was going to talk about being, always being like, we've always been purpose driven as opposed to maybe a company that hasn't. And I think the diff, like how that helps is that from day one we've had to like manage how we're going to make money. How are we going to make a profit and be purpose driven at the same time.

Rather than that's always been, that's always been the concern or that's always been the problem that we've been trying to solve rather than, okay, so we're making a profit and now how do we be purpose driven and still make 100?

And that's, that is the, that is what is night and day between companies because, yeah, I, I kind of call that second version purpose light. It's like, and, and typically it's, we're making a ton of money. We're going to give somebody to charity to sort of.

Excuse me while I indulge my medieval history degree again. You know, back in the days it was like, you know, I've been a really bad king or lord. Before I die, I'll go on a pilgrimage, you know, maybe to Rome or whatever, and I'll be absolved of my sins and I'll give some money to the monastery next door and, you know, we're all good. Instead of, well, actually, why don't I just be a benevolent king or benevolent lord and actually look after my people for the whole time and just treat everyone, you know, with dignity. And I think that's again, that just shines through the, the companies that are kind of like purpose light. Yeah, we make a ton of money, but, you know, we give some money to charity or, you know, we've got one ingredient in our product that we're now sourcing in a less way versus, you know, versus what you're doing. You know, you, you cut your business in half with a knife and it's just got purpose all the way through. Whereas these other ones, you know, it's like a Malteser or a Skittle. You know, you crack the shell and it's, there's nothing on the inside. It, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not the same. And when people have that ability to connect, they get it. But yes, like, like you say you've got three seconds on tick tock.

Yeah, yeah. Or, or there's the other side of things too. Like we're, we're looking for investment at the moment. And so how many, how many investors out there want this story as opposed to. They just want, they're just looking at that bottom dollar and usually investors, you know, that's what they do, they look at the bottom dollar. That's what investment's all about. Same thing there too. You know, like if we could crack that one as well would be really good. If we could like get some more investors on board with this whole sustainability story and wanting to support businesses like ours, that would be amazing.

I might have got a introduction for you there as well. Let me, I'll see what I can do on that one. I think in general, the investment world. Yeah, I think there are some who see B Corp as a trend that they can get into and because the global evidence suggests that B Corps outperform business as usual on a financial basis and in terms of resilience. So B Corp's more likely to survive the pandemic. Top line growth for B Corp since 2019 was better than top line growth for business as usual. So there's a compelling economic reason to possibly invest in a B Corp. You know, it de risks any problems. You know, you're less likely to have some contentious issue pop up, you know, around ethics or environmental impact or what have you. But I would say there is a, I think there's a large number of investors who are like, yeah, yeah, we do impact investing but actually they still want the same return rate and they don't really care so much about it. So yeah, it's finding those genuine people who like, look, we're happy to have a less return because we recognize the, the impact you're having. Yeah, I think it's still, it's a shaky world that one still.

But it's getting, it is a shaky world and you know, and I think there needs to be sort of like more of a long term investment rather than like the short kind of. Yeah, yeah. Investment gain. So yeah, that kind of whole model needs to shift a little bit to support businesses like ours.

Yeah, totally. Well, I think as you know, as we get more B Corps, hopefully there'll be more leverage on the business side to go. Actually I don't want your money. I'm going to take their money because it aligns more with my princess. I think, I don't think we're close to that tipping point yet, but I think you can feel increasingly as B Corp becomes more normalized, although it's still quite niche there's just more collateral on this side of the feds to go. Actually I don't want that money on those terms because it doesn't align with, with our long term vision. Have you thought about crowdfunding?

Yes. Yes, I'm going to have a shot at crowdfunding. Oh I think in another six months time.

Yeah.

There's going to be some impact crowdfunding. An opportunity for me to pitch. I think it's been about six months so. Yeah.

Nice. The natural paint company. They're a B corp recently certified. They're just going through a pledge me campaign right now. In some ways that, that kind of. I mean if you. And there's been some really good ones like etiquette back in the day like 2017, 2018. I think I put 500 bucks into Brianna at the time.

Oh, well done.

That.

Possibly that is where the best connection is in terms of fundraising and.

I think so ethos. It's like right.

You know, you get to have a small part of our business. You can, you can help us stay on the straight and narrow. And you gen, I mean eth did a really great. I think as an investor you got like a, a pretty much lifetime discount on the product. So it's like you know, really smart move because it's like well I, I love your product anyway and I'm always going to buy it anyway because I'm committed to it.

Yeah.

But now I'm, now I'm a very, you know, very small owner. But hey, thanks for the discount. It's like great. Like that just locked me in, you know, it's. Why would I go and buy anything else?

Because exactly. What a good. Yeah.

Yeah. So maybe.

Yeah. So Anna Gunther at Pledge Me, she's the sort of fundraising guru. Yeah, yeah.

I've been talking with Anna. Yeah. Around this crowdfunding.

It might be worth seeing if you can. Yeah. See if I can get an intro to Brianne for you. And also yeah. The natural paint company. I know James and Grace, the co founders there but they're right in the middle of their crowdfunding right now. So now would not be a time for an introduction.

Should.

But certainly etique, you know they're kind of like the gold standard. 100% of you know how you want. Yeah. Sustainability, sustainable business. Like cracking it 100%.

Okay. If you could do 10% as well as Brienne, you'd be doing great.

Great. Yeah, exactly.

Myself in that same boat. Like if I could have just 10% of success that Brienne had and yeah. But also Doing it.

It.

Doing it well, like she did it. And maintained the standards and transparency. Like it can be done.

Yeah, it can be done. There's a lot to learn from her journey.

Massively so.

Yeah.

So what does the future look like? What's. So you got expansion into. Into Australia.

Australia.

Any other cool things on the horizon?

Any other cool things on the horizon?

Well, you know, the expansion into Australia means that we're going to have to keep up with our supply. So more planting projects, more restoration projects, more collaborative projects with landowners around their catchment areas, or just people that need to regenerate their land for, you know, reasons such as there's more flooding, erosion, all that kind of thing that's happening. So more projects and collaborations ahead.

We've got our research projects, our R D projects that are going on in the background as well.

And hopefully working a bit more with B Corp on developing their indigenous lens and other indigenous B Corp communities. Like, I'd really love to see.

A place for indigenous brands that's their own in B Corp. So when I went through the certification process, there was an indigenous question there that I answered, and then I had to give evidence to B Lab in Australia that I was following MORI principles and they were the ones that would give me the tick of yes, you are or no, you're not. And that didn't. That didn't sit well with me. So I think there's a lot of where I'd love to work with B Lab on. On indigenous ways of doing things and collaborate more with other indigenous US businesses all around the world because we share so much in common with our traditional practices.

Yeah, super cool. So if you have that all done by Tuesday, that'd be great.

Yeah, I reckon.

Then we can retire.

That would be the plan. Yeah. One day. Yeah.

But sometimes people like us don't get to retire too.

I think that's the thing. I think this is, you know, it's kind of like B Corp life. I didn't choose B Corp life, it chose me. I'm. I'm kind of. I'm down the rabbit hole now.

Down the rabbit hole. And I just. I don't see maybe. Yeah, I've thought about retirement, how attractive it looks, and I don't know if I will have the opportunity, but I enjoy my work, so that's good.

It's. It's one of those. What do they call it? The sort of. There's a phrase called Churchillian drift, which basically means a quote is assigned to Winston Churchill, even though he never said it. But it Sounds like something he would have said. And so people kind of roll with it. But is that. Pardon me, it wasn't. It definitely wasn't Churchill who said this, but there is that phrase, you know, if you love what you do every day, then it's, It's. It's not a day's work, it's what you do. And I think that's, again, that that comes through. You know, with all the guests we've had on the podcast, it's like, this is more than just going to work. This is a mission. This is something I'm committed to. This is my life's work. This is. It's bigger than me. It's. You know, and, yeah, I can't see you not being. Planting Manuka in. In. You know, even if you have kind of retired or sold the business, you'd probably still be planting some stuff in your back in your backyard and making the next version of something. So that's all good, though.

I totally agree, Totally agree with you, Tim.

Well, it's been super, super cool to get to know you and know more about the background and the business. And if people listening are not inspired to go and start their own business or at least to go do something more awesome today, then we've both failed miserably. But I, I can't see how that is even vaguely possible. Once again, just a super inspirational story of a good human doing amazing stuff. And I say just really try and connect to that sense of purpose that you've got there, because you have that, and not every business has that. And I don't think you'll ever lose sight of it, but it's just recognize it that it is there because that's special. And certainly not every business has that. And that is your secret sauce. So, yeah, thank you so much.

I. I just want to thank you, Tim, for having me on this podcast and helping to tell my story, helping me to tell our Orku story, and thank the listeners out there, especially the ones who are internationals who have had to like, really kind of stretch their ears and their learnings around all this indigenous knowledge that's been passed on. Yeah, really appreciate everyone taking the time to listen to my kreito or my talk today. So on that note, Tim, would you like me to close off our.

It's all yours.

How many? Super cool. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, Then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.