#87 Kate Grant: The Spin Doctor for Good

Hey. Kia ora shamay. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you as always to our regular listeners. The few of you that I know that are out there, I meet some of you, that's quite cool. If you're a new listener. Thank you for tuning in. Hopefully this one's the one that makes you stay and listen to all the other ones. With me today I have got Kate Grant from nsp. Oh Kate. Kia ora. How's it going?

K Good, thank you.

And you are based in?

I am in Auckland so I will quick pepeha just to give everyone a bit of background. No Kotirangi okutipina I wh mai o I o Tipoti itipu ake o ki maruawai K Massi tkukanga inaene imahiana o I nspa ko Kate Grant Tokuingawa so my ancestors are from Scotland. I was born in Dunedin but I grew up in Gore. So I'm a Southland girl at heart. But I now live in Massey in West Auckland in Tamaki Makoto. I work for nspr. I'm the managing director there and my name is K. Grant. So yeah, I've been with NSPR for coming up eight years. I've been in Auckland for eight years. Before that I was down in Dunedin but I now live here with my husband and our almost 10 month old.

Wow. So yeah, right, right in the thick of it. Running. Running a business and a small human.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

So tell us so nspr that is possibly a clue in the name of the company NSPR pr. But yeah, what does ns, what's NSP all about? Tell us what you do.

Yeah, so we're a pr so Public Relations Communications and Talent Management Agency. So we are kind of a boutique, boutique size but we help essentially our co papa is really to help people make their star shine. So whether that is our clients but through storytelling or with our team. So helping them kind of be the best they can be and show up to work as their whole selves. So yeah we, we work with clients kind of across all sectors. We do a lot in the sustainability space kind of by nature of I guess who we are which will probably come out a little bit more as we chat but across property, hospitality, fmcg, tourism, lots of different industries which keeps things really exciting for me. I'm the type of person that likes to have lots of variety and yeah it means we get to work with lots of cool people across lots of cool industries as well.

Nice. And does the NS Stand for anything.

Yeah. So originally it was Nikki Shuck pr. So Nikki Shock founded Nikki Shpr. She was just, you know, on her own in 2008. And then in 2018 I came on as a shareholder and director and that's when we became NSPR Limited and in 2022, Rebecca Reed came on as a third shareholder and director. So as a business, we've definitely had a journey in terms of what the structure of the business looks like and what they will look forward. Look like moving forward as well. So, you know, kind of bringing the next generation through.

And. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit as well as we, as we chat through as well. But that's, that's kind of the name. But on the stock exchange, actually NSPR is short for Inspire. So if I'm going to put a bit of a PR spin on our own name.

That'S a good one as well.

That's pretty cool. Nice one. Yeah. Inspire. So I guess PR as an industry, it's kind of up there with, with industries that people might kind of go, well, well, hang on a minute. Like, how does PR do good? Because typically, I think most, when most people hear PR consultant or it's kind of like, you know, crisis consultant, it's like you said, we're putting a spin on something that probably didn't go so well, but hey, we're going to try and make some lemonade out of the lemons that you might have seen. So.

Yeah.

How do you think?

I definitely think PR gets a bit of a bad rap a lot of the time. You know, there's terms like spin doctors and that kind of thing where it's very much trying to mislead or, or, you know, not convey accurately what the situation is. But I actually think PR has the real potential to actually amplify those really genuine stories. And that's, you know, what we like to do is work with clients, big, small, kind of everywhere in between and help them share their own stories. So kind of facilitate that, whether that's through media interviews, support with their internal comms, with their social media, their EDMs, kind of stakeholder engagement. Any way they're communicating is helping to, you know, get those stories amplified and, and told to the masses. And I think, you know, being a B corp as well, we are really particular about the types of people that we work with because we want to make sure that, you know, they're on, they've got the same values as we do. And that's really important to Us from a, I guess a genuine and integrity perspective is that we, because, you know, if, if we're excited and we believe in something, it's so much, you know, that really comes through when we're talking to other people about it. You know, we wouldn't hand on heart, be able to try and sell an idea into someone if we didn't back what the, what the client was doing or what they, what they wanted to do. But yeah, I think it can get a bit of a rough ride. But it does really have the potential to be a force for good.

Yeah, it's like anything, isn't it? It's, it's a tool. It can be used for, for good or it can be used for slightly more nefarious practices. And I guess it's, yeah, taking those skills, I mean it's, it's an example I talk about often with some of our clients. It's like, you know, my business is a consulting company. We choose to use our minds and our consulting skills to help people be a better business. But there are plenty of business consultants out there. I say that, you know, there will be a consulting company somewhere in the world right now that's working out how do we sell vapes to 14 year olds and get laws and regulations to make that a thing so you can use your skills and, and, and the frameworks and I think. Sorry, there you go.

Sorry. I was just gonna say I think PR and comms professionals are more and more being, almost becoming more strategic advisors than just kind of, you know, sitting in a corner writing a press release and sending it out. We are kind of being asked to feed back at top level stuff with our clients in terms of the senior leadership team want a commle ends on something or so we actually are kind of in a position to help them on their sustainability journey or help them to become a better TEIT partner or you know, have real influence to help them get. Often they're like, we, we know we want to get here and I, I think actually you were talking about this on the last episode of the podcast about people. If they're not perfect, they don't want to say this is what we're trying to do. But you know, helping them get on that journey and we can help influence change in those spaces as well. So it's becoming less of just, oh, we'll bring comms in at the very last second or less of, oh, we're only bringing comms in when something's gone wrong and it's more right at the start really collaborative and what value can we bring in a different perspective in terms of how things might, you know, what might that impact in terms of brand image or, you know, actually you should do that because it's the right thing to do. We don't have to talk about it from a comms perspective. That just might be work you guys do in the background. You know that Mahi doesn't necessarily have to be publicized, but it's the right thing to do and that's why we think you should do it.

Interesting. Yeah, it definitely, and it definitely feels when, when you look at the percentage mix or of industry type of B Corp marketing is, is up there. It's like a sector you've got marketing, home and personal care and tech I think are like three of the.

The really big sectors that have their, you know, identified because they're so big. Yeah, it definitely feels, it feels like that's, that's definitely trending or a thing right now. So have you got any sort of cool examples of any campaigns or something that people might have seen or that or just a good example of how you've used PR skills for good to help demonstrate, you know, impact and purpose and doing good?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a few that spring to mind. So we work with Eco Store for a really long time. They're a B Corp certified as well. So, you know, very values aligned. We did a campaign with them last year around no laundry day. So the idea being that if everyone in the country didn't do their laundry on for this one day, like the thousands of hundreds of thousands of liters of water that would be saved and that got, you know, quite a bit of pickup. You know, the idea of encouraging people not to do laundry, you know, is kind of an interesting one, but that's kind of, you know, bringing awareness to.

You know, the impact that something that small. Because often I think with sustainability in particular, people go, well what's the point in me taking my keep cup? I'm only one person, it's only one coffee cup. It's not like what's the point of me, you know, trying to save 50 mils of water or whatever. But the, the idea being that, you know, it is a cumulative effect and if everyone got on board then we could impact real change.

Another couple we've worked with Keep New Zealand Beautiful before. So again, really values aligned in terms of what's important to, to NSPR as a business. They did their national litter audit. They've done two now to show the state of the litter flux in New Z and unfortunately it wasn't great news in terms of the, the litter situation. New Zealand isn't great but again was really, we felt really passionate about communicating that and helping keep New Zealand beautiful to amplify those stories. So that again, it's about that education piece and then also behavior change. So a real kind of tangible outcome of what, of what we're trying to achieve in terms of, you know, that PR for good. We've also worked with Breast Cancer foundation around encouraging women to get their mammograms. There was a really big backlog as a result of COVID So again advocacy, awareness and hopefully as a result behaviour change. So.

And another one which was quite close to me personally considering I being on maternity leave was working with a kiwisaver company around the importance of kiwisaver parity. When any primary caregiver goes on leave, obviously they're not working so not putting into their kiwisaver. So that's then an unbalance. So just a lot around education and highlighting the amazing mahi that a lot of New Zealand businesses are doing and then hopefully, you know, being that kind of rabbit in people's ear so that they hear it a lot, hear it a few times and then that inspires change, whether that's for themselves, whether that's for the next generation or for, for whatever motivates them to make a difference in their own, in their own lives.

Nice. So are there any like, obviously you know, if people need some PR comms help they should, you know. Oh, 100 Kate. But if someone's really, you know, they just don't have the capital to invest in it. What are there any sort of like top tips that you could give around either, you know, how to do a good campaign or you know, because you look at what's the company. Thank you. I don't if you remember them based on it, Aussie, you know, they did some pretty high level crazy, I guess almost like marketing stunts. I think one of them, because they would they people haven't heard of them. They used to have a bottled water brand called thank you and I think for every bottle that was sold they would then put or, you know, funds from that would then go towards putting in water facilities in African nations and other developing countries. And they were really struggling to get the, the brand stocked in the supermarkets in Australia. So they did a massive viral campaign where they got all the people who were already consuming their brands or their water to make a little YouTube video saying if you stock this in your supermarket I will come and buy it. And then on top of that they got a helicopter and flew around the skyscraper of the one of the main supermarket brands in Australia with a big one of those big banners behind it saying like, you know, please stock our water. And with those two pressure points they ended up getting stocked. And I mean that's a pretty extreme and that's. That it takes a lot of capital obviously and. But yeah, what are some, what are some tips and tricks that you might be able to give away in terms of. Yeah, some basic ideas that people could think about or concepts.

Yeah, I think the first one really is just be really clear on what your key messages are. Make sure you've got those nailed so that you are ready. So that if something for one, if you're going out proactively, you know exactly what it is you're actually trying to communicate, you know what your objectives are. But also if you're successful and there is pickup and you know, media do come to you and say we've got 30 seconds to grab a sound bite for this radio station. You, you're ready, you know what you want to say. And I think there's less a. You, you need to think about your audience and then who is, who is speaking to that audience and then think of what their style is and what would work for them. You know, if you're trying to target.

10 to 15 year old young males.

You know, going to a house and garden magazine is not going to cut the mustard. It might get there, mother or their grandmother across it that they can then pass it on to them. But if, unless that's kind of a secondary audience that you have identified you want to talk to, you've got to make sure where you're going is lining up with who it is you're wanting to talk to and then thinking about, you know, what kind of story is it going to be interested in. Do these, is it radio? So are they wanting, is it going to have to be, you know, really quick, sharp, which, you know, radio interviews generally tend to be quite short. Are you trying for tv? So is it therefore you need to think about what are the visual elements like? It can't just be be, you know, I've got a great idea, it'll be me talking about this for five minutes. There's going to need to be some B roll that's going to have to be visually engaging. You know, if it's print, you know, what images are there, that kind of thing. So thinking about where it is you want it to be Placed and then what that publication or platform or, or outlet is going to need for that to be an appealing story that they would want to run.

Nice. Yeah, there's I, I come from a background in sales training. We still do sales training for B Corps and other businesses for good. So if you need some, let me know. And there's a famous story that I was told back in the day when I was going through sales training about a guy called Willie Sutton, and he was an infamous bank robber on the east coast of the US in the sort of the 40s and 50s. And he was absolutely prolific and he was on the FBI's you know, most wanted list for many years. And when they finally caught him, the arresting officer said to him, willie, we've got to know, why did you rob all those banks? To which he replied, because that's where the money was. And so Willie Sutton is used as like the metaphor for, like you said, if you're trying to sell to 10 to 15 year old boys, you've got to go where they're hanging out. And it's like, you know, if you're looking to rob a bank, not them advocating robbing a bank, but it's like, obviously if you wanted to get money, you go and rob a bank. You don't go and rob, I don't know, like a vegetable store because there's gonna be more money in the bank. And I think people, yeah, it's a critical thing in terms of sales and marketing and any, even just your basic product, like what is it you're trying to sell? Yeah, you know, that one person, one problem. What is it you, what is it you do and why do they need you? And I, I mean, I've been on a bit of a journey on that in my own business and I know it's hard for a lot of smaller businesses in particular where you think you have to be. And I think particularly in New Zealand where you have to, I think you feel like you have to be a bit of a generalist sometimes because the market is small and it's like, well, I could probably stretch and I could do that to get that deal or to get that client. But I'm not really an expert at it, but I think I could be an expert at it for now to get, to keep the cash flow coming in so I can keep doing what I, what I need to do. But yeah, I think that having that clear sense of what it is that you do and knowing who your customer is is. Yeah.

And I think, you know, that's a really good place to start if you know it's a startup or a new business and there isn't a heap, you know you're bootstrapping, there isn't a heap of investment as kind of carve out a small chunk that can go to key message development, audience identification, you know, target markets, a bit, a bit of a strategy, some base copywriting so that you're really clear on brand and what your tone of voice is. And then if you know that's a good, that is a good kind of cornerstone foundation and then as you grow you can bring in the other elements. You know, I know a lot of people, kind of a one man or one woman band. You know, they're the social media expert as well as the sale lead sales as well as the R and D person. So you know, where there is budget. I think comms is often one that is quick to get chopped when people are looking at reducing spend. But you know, if you do get the opportunity to be in front of your target audience, you know, whether that's a cold call or a media opportunity or advertising spend or social, don't waste it by telling like not having a good message to give to them.

Yeah. And so in terms of like a mix. So because it's, it's the old Peter Drucker expression, isn't it? We know that 50% of marketing works. We just don't know which 50%. It's. I think sometimes when people, and I probably put myself in this boat a little bit in terms of, I mean I do, I do very little if any paid marketing in the business.

We'Re doing okay without doing that, but we are about to start thinking about, okay, well how do we be a bit more tactical about, about marketing? And I guess historically it was quite hard to know whether as Peter Drucker said, you know, like we've put some stuff out there. It's quite hard to know unless you're actively asking people when they ring through, where did you hear about us from? Which, you know, it's definitely something people should try and get in the conversation when you've got clients coming to you. But I guess in some ways, yeah, maybe people think our PR comms, it's, it's a bit hit and miss, you know, like I'm gonna put an article out there and you know, I don't know how many people are going to read it or I might get on the radio. But is, you know, is it a bunch of grandmothers listening in when like you say, actually I wanted the 15 year old kids. But I guess increasingly with technology and tracking and what have you, PR comms is I'm guessing as effective as a digital marketing depending, again depending I suppose what you're selling and what you're trying to achieve out of it. But in terms of tracking and getting data around the performance of that, is that better now?

Yeah, it's still differently, you know, like it's not as clear cut as like a social campaign where you can go, okay, I've spent this, I can see exactly it got X amount of likes, I've got X amount of comments and I know what the ROI is. It's still very much because it's kind of dealing in that brand equity space without kind of doing pre and post, you know, really strong analysis that often costs quite a bit. It's not as kind of clear cut as the social. But you can still look at things like, you know, share a voice. And the article, was it all about you or were you, you know, the fourth person quoted? And so, you know, if people weren't interested, they will have stopped reading. Was it, what was the sentiment? Were you positioned in a really positive way or a negative way? A lot of when it comes to PR and comms, it's really about momentum. So you know, if you kind of think of the, I guess the marketing funnel in terms of, you know, people know about you, then people are interested and so do some research and then they'll, you know, seriously consider, you know, what's the cost, what, what other things do I need to consider here? And then they'll go into action. So it's kind of that consistent messaging so that, so that you're top of mind.

There used to be things like ASR, so advertising revenue equivalent type measurement, but we steer away from that now. And Prins, the PR Institute in New Zealand don't encourage that as a method of tracking because it's actually quite inaccurate. So that, that would be like say if you paid for a full page in this magazine, that's what the equivalent of the story is. But that's where the earned versus owned differentiation is really important. Like you know, if you're flicking through a magazine often you'll go, okay, advert ever evert, I'm looking for the story. Whereas if you're, if it's a story about you then you'll read that, you'll engage with that, that's a third party endorsement because you'll see that as the editor saw real value in talking about this as opposed to, oh, they've Just paid to pop that in there. You know, this is worth reading because it's kind of gotten past all of those hoops to be worthy of a story being written about it. So it's definitely not super clear cut, but there are ways to kind of look at it in a, in a wider sense. And then of course there's anecdotal stuff. We did a campaign where there was a seven sharp story about the client and immediately following the story through to about two hours later, their website traffic was absolutely through the roof. So yep, sure, correlation does not imply causation, but I think in that case you could say that's a, that's a pretty direct effect. Similarly, there was a news piece.

In a Sunday paper and then they had the biggest sales online that day than that I think ever had at that point. So there is, there is ways of tracking the effectiveness of that kind of thing without it necessarily being a. Here's a very specific number of the eyeballs that this got on.

And it's, I mean I was talking to someone earlier this week and they were talking about how in terms of digital this someone that they know or they were doing a digital social media training program or something. Anyway, the company had been paying money to, you know, to, to, to get their ads placed. But maybe it might have been in a controversial industry or I think it might have been around an election, the election that just gone. And they were talking about how, you know, increasingly sometimes the, the companies, so Facebook, Instagram, Tick Tock or whatever is, you know, you think you're getting the exposure but they're actually throttling back how much you're being, you know, how much exposure you're actually getting. So you, you. Yeah, I think that the digital world is I guess in the world of AI. And yeah, whilst I think it, it looks like it's clear, I think it's actually murkier than maybe we think it is. You know, how many, how many, you know, hear all these, all the time of all these influencers that, you know, yeah, they got 500,000 followers, but actually 490,000 of them are from a bot in Pakistan. And you know, so I think it's interesting and with the, with the advances of AI, I think this time last year when the whole chat GPT thing was really kicking off that the thing that the word that popped into my head was trust. You know, how do you, how do we know that anything is now authentic and real? So I guess in some ways the PR comm side of thing, it's Possibly its time is going to come. Because actually it's like, well, no, this. Well, other than perhaps the AI side of things. Like, well, you know, how do we know that this is actually the words of the founder or the owner or. Yeah, but it's almost becoming, it's, it's got the opportunity of being maybe more authentic than the digital stuff because we don't know whether we're seeing, you know, the video. Is that real? You know, is this person talking on the, on the Internet? Is it, are we even real? We could be fake chatbot AI, who knows? Not that I'm not that smart. People trust me. This is actually, this is actually me. Okay.

I think the, I think the AI conversation's a really interesting one because I think there was a lot of.

You know, what impact is that going to have on comms in terms of, you know, will, will people just plug in and go write me a social post or write me a press release or whatever. So we've, we've done, you know, we're working with clients on creating AI policies as a tool to help as opposed to do. Because I think, you know, especially this younger generation coming through, if they're going to grow up with AI, that's just going to be part of what the tools in their toolkit is. The way they might use a spell check on word or something. It's, it's just kind of, it's going to be part of, of their, of their life. But, you know, and I think that AI tools are only going to get, you know, there's kind of like a toddler now and it's kind of going to, you know, as.

Gets more information and all that kind of thing. It's going to grow. But I think it's about how it's used as, you know, used to help as opposed to do because, you know, it actually could take you four times longer to fact check something that has put out than it would have done to if you'd actually just written it yourself and maybe asked it to spell check for you. So there's. Yeah, I think there's potential pitfalls that kind of people need to be wary of and supported through so that it's not like a hard. No, we're not, we're not embracing that at all. But using it in a way that's actually impactful and can be effective.

Back.

To the start of the conversation. It's, it's a tool. It's, it's how you use it. We went to the States over New Year and in Phoenix, Arizona, they have got self driving taxis.

Oh my God.

Yeah. So it's. It. You just see this car pull up next year at the lights and there's nobody in it and you're like, hang on a minute. And then it just, it dry and it's just like, yeah, no, no thank you. I just, you just have visions of being in a horrific car crash with it. It's like, well, what? You know. Well, I don't know. It was just. Or just it steals you and takes you off somewhere. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

And look, I'm sure there's going to be a whole lot of conversations around ethics and AI and in every sense, not just comms and every industry that it's used and I mean they're already starting to kind of happen now, but I think that's definitely an area we're gonna be seeing more of.

Yeah. The other. I was just thinking as well, my, the first job I had after university was working for a company in the UK in Bristol, who, So I was doing tele sales, selling advertising space to companies in these journals. And I'll never forget that the line we were supposed to. One of the lines we were supposed to use, I only lasted six weeks. I, I realized how dodgy this place was. One of the lines we were supposed to use was, you know, be like, look Kate, this, this journal isn't going to be read. It's going to be referred to, you know, it's like this, this journal is going to be sat on someone's desk for, for six months, you know, between, between issues. And so we were trying to, you know, they were trying to get you to inflate the idea that, okay, yes, your ad might only be seen once by the person reading it first time, but actually it's going to sit on these key decision makers deaths. It's going to be the kind of magazine that sits in, you know, in the reception area of, of a big CEO's office. But the rumor was allegedly I discovered afterwards was that they actually only printed like a thousand copies of it. Told people they were printing 500,000 copies, charged the advertising on that. And meanwhile the boss was driving around in his Aston Martin having a great old time.

So that thing of trust, right, And I think that's like, that really does underpine good communication strategy as being able to build a trustworthy brand. And then if things do go wrong, people believe you when you say you're going to fix it. Whereas if, if you don't kind of have a base of Trust, or they don't feel like there's a human behind whatever it is, whether that's a service or a product or a, you know, FMCG or whatever, then they'll just go, okay, well, you've kind of lost me there.

Yeah. Which, which ties into the thing we sort of talked about at the beginning. You know, a lot of companies who want to talk about doing good, but they're scared of talking about doing good because. Oh, I mean, we're talking to some. I'm literally talking about this with a client this week. They're like, oh, yeah, we've thought about talking about that, but, you know, the comments we might get on socials. What are your thoughts on that? You know, how should you approach doing that sort of stuff?

Yeah, and I think with the, you know, the greenwashing thing, I think it has made people quite scared to, to kind of say, oh, this is what we're doing, because they don't want to be accused of that. Which, look, fair enough, I get that. But I do think it's a, you know, everyone's on a journey, like, and whether you're at the start or at the, you know, halfway through, or you've made some really good inroads, I think it's just about taking people with you on that journey. There might actually be some really good opportunities for a bit of, you know, a feedback loop there where you go, we're doing this. And someone goes, oh, interesting. Have you thought about X, Y, Z or. Yep, all well and good for you to do that. But how come you're still doing all of these other things that aren't sustainable or, you know, aren't for the betterment of the planet? And, I mean, I think most of the time the companies will go, yep, they're on our radar. But there might be occasions where they go, huh, actually, we hadn't thought that. We didn't realize that was so important to people. So that's going to help us kind of shift our priorities and that's going to become a project or whatever. And then when you do make strides in that area, people go, oh, okay, so you, you listened and you, you said you were going to make some changes there and, and you have. But if you're coming out about it going, oh, look at us, we have, you know, eliminated waste here, or we've done this, and people think, oh, that's quite a small step. If they were part of that journey and knew that actually, you know, you've gone from this amount of carbon emissions down to this much, it's still not zero, but you've, you know, reduced it by 700% or whatever. That's a massive one. But if they don't know the starting point, they don't understand this, why it's worth celebrating at the point it is now, even if that's not the end journey.

Yeah, I totally agree. And that's what we advise everyone who we talk to is start telling the story of the journey and bring people. And if people. There's always going to people who criticize you. But I think the, the upside of the benefits of your. That you'll get of telling the story of the good that you're doing will fire out. The people who are going to criticize you probably aren't going to buy your products anyway. So, you know, well, they're going to be the last people to come and buy it anyway. So, you know, don't worry about the small minority of people who are negatively geared and will just criticize anything for the sake of criticizing it anyway versus capturing the hearts and minds of the people who are already buying your product or service. And obviously, like, you want you to do better and you can explain to them, yeah, we're doing that. And again, it's a great way to get some stakeholder engagement. Okay, well, look, we've got five things that we think we want to be better at. Which ones do you care about? Which one should we do first? Which one makes most sense for you as our, as our customers? So I think, yes, massive missed opportunity where people just kind of go, oh no, let's just be ostrich. You know, head in the sand. We'll just chip away at stuff behind the scenes and not tell people. Yeah, I mean, the other thing we say to people, no one's perfect. Like, there's no 200 point B corp. No one's one B corp yet. And like, yeah, no one's.

Yeah. So it's like, you know, and I think also on top of that, as I say frequently on this podcast, like, doing good is not black and white. There's a lot of gray areas where packaging is the great example. There's no perfect solution. There's pluses and minuses to all of them. And, you know, it's, it's not easy. And so people got to make the best decision with the knowledge that they've got with where they think they're going and be okay with that.

I think, I think there is more of an understanding now that it's especially for really big companies that potentially have Been for around for a long time.

It's not an overnight fix. And I, I think there is an understanding that.

If it's what you know, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right and it's not something that you are immediately going to, to nail and there will be mistakes but you know, that's how you learn. I, I think there's a lot of similarities with, you know, being a good te tiriti partner.

You know, these are. People feel like they don't want to. Well and I mean I personally felt this way. I'd, you know, be nervous to say a pipiha or talk about elements of te ao Maori because it's. I'm on a personal journey learning that and as a business we're on a journey with that as well. But most of the time I think people, you know.

It'S worth doing and so people encourage that in a gentle with a mistake is made or a pronunciation's not quite right.

Yeah, totally. It's. When you, when you, when I sort of think about the, the sort of individual purpose journey or any journey of transformation, one of the. What's the word I'm looking for? Sort of like key archetypes is the jester. So being willing to be able to be the fool, make mistakes, laugh at yourself as like that's a key. It's almost like the childlike. You're kind of moving into this childlike curiosity archetype where you don't know, you don't know how to do it. You're going to make mistakes. And I think as adults we're so conditioned to. I can't make a mistake. If I make a mistake, I lose my job. That we forget that actually that the, the very act of learning and doing something new will involve mistakes. You will fall on your, you know, you'll fall flat on your ass and. But you need to dust yourself off, have a laugh about it because that's the best way to get through it. But as long as the intent behind it is the right thing and, and you know, part of that process, you know, is also the sort of like the phoenix, you know, the burning off the feathers. Okay, what are the things that we don't want to do anymore? They've got us to where we are today, but we recognize that that's not a cool way to do it anymore. So yeah, it's, it's very aligned in my mind. That's that journey of transformation and yeah, just, just being willing to have a go. And, and yeah, you're not going to. It's unlikely you're going to nail it first time and that's okay.

Yeah. And I think intent is the most important thing there and like, what is the purpose of you wanting to go down that path? But yeah, like you were saying, you know that there's that whole concept of failing fast. So try something if it doesn't work, you know, chalk that up to experience and, and try something else. But yeah, you're not going to get anywhere if you're not, you know, trying to challenge yourself and whatever area that is.

That's life.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you've got a 10 month old. You're watching it in action right now.

Yes. Yeah. Although I'm not sure if he necessarily learns from his mistakes as quickly.

As I might.

But I mean, a friend and former mentor of mine, Daniel Batten, you know, he always used to use kids as the example. Like kids don't just typically, they don't just get up one day and start walking. There's a series of progressions of you crawl, you give it a go, you're holding on to things, you fall over. And then maybe having had months of giving it a go in a short, seemingly short progression, you suddenly go, oh, I can do a couple of steps. But it's taken months of thinking and you know, giving things a go and you know, utilizing other mechanisms, moving around before you're even at the point of giving it a go. And typically you will fail the first few times that you do it anyway. But we can all walk. You know, we sort of, we sort of forget that we've all been through these phases. But yeah, we're a funny bunch, humans, we really are. I often wonder how we're actually all still here, how we haven't just all killed each other yet. Because I know we are a very, very strange bunch. Like, yeah, why are we the ones in charge? It's like, how did that happen? That actually happened? Yeah.

Cool. Anything else that you any, any other sort of tips or tricks or words of wisdom around PR comms, marketing that, that you, you'd want to sort of get across or do you think we've covered?

No, I, I would just say I think don't treat it as a nice to have. I think it's, it's really important and kind of really comes down to the core of whatever it is you're doing. You need to make sure that when you are talking to people, you're doing it. You're talking to the right people in the right way and at the right time.

Nice. That's a great way to sum up marketing. PR comms. Talk to the right people at the right time, the right way. Nailed it. You should be in marketing or PR comms.

I'll look into it. Thank you.

I might ask some people if you can talk to.

So in terms of like the, the business for good side of things. So you've been with a company quite a while. Yes. Has the company always been focused on doing good and I guess. And the supplementary question, have you been someone who's always been into sort of business for good purpose and impact, or have you and the company been on a bit of a journey to get to where you are today?

I think the business has always gravitated towards those businesses doing good things.

Me personally, before I was in this role, I was at a museum. So still very much kind of in the storytelling space. But that, that was a kind. I was kind of fresh out of university there. So I think I probably was still a bit selfish in terms of my worldview and hadn't necessarily thought about what business for good look like.

But yeah, I think we've always gravitated that way. But definitely B Corp helped us to really formalize and solidify that. So as part of kind of the B Corp process we'd always kind of, you know, if someone came to us that was like.

An industry that we were like, oh, that. I don't know if hand on heart I would feel great promoting that. We've kind of gone, okay, well that's not the right fit for us. But we really formalized it through the B Corp process and created a, like an ideal client checklist. So whenever someone new comes on board, we go through this checklist and go, you know, there's a whole lot of things but, but again it's, it's basically like is it a good, is it good people doing good things in a good way? You know, are they on a journey with being a good tity partner? Are they on a journey with sustainability? Do they respect and value us as in terms of what we bring to the table? Do they treat their team, you know, what's their culture like?

You know, so a whole raft of things. But it has meant we've, you know, it's kind of almost given us permission to ask for ourselves to go, this isn't the right fit. So we won't engage here.

Which is often a tough conversation. I mean, you guys are a small to medium sized business. It's, you know, it's a pressure. I know certainly earlier in my days, you know, I did some sales training probably for some companies that I, I'd rather not, you know, today I'd probably say no. But when you're a small business, you've got a mortgage to pay and a small matter feed, you sometimes have to sort of go, okay, I can rationalize this to a degree, but I think, yeah, increasingly, yeah, we're now at a point of business where we could say, no, I'm sorry, but that doesn't align. It's definitely a common theme we see amongst the B Corp community, which is working with one company currently. And they historically have done some work for industries that would be called, you know, or would make up the controversial industries list. So tobacco and, and breast milk substitutes and stuff like that. And as part of their B Corp journey, they said, no, that's cool. We're, we're no longer working for the tobacco companies. So they're now sort of just going through the process of explaining that to P Lab saying, look, we're, we're done drawing a line under it.

And I will say just on that this is potentially a controversial take, but we did work with.

One of the products was breast milk substitute for this client. But I actually really strongly believe that there is an important product to offer. Obviously, I've just had a baby myself, so I kind of know firsthand that it's not necessarily all rainbows and sunshine. And for some families actually breastfeeding doesn't work, so there needs to be a safe, nutritious offering. So that is kind of the one where I go, actually that's a bit more nuanced than tobacco or oil.

But, yeah, so, but, but I felt hand on heart, I could back them as a client and I felt they were doing really good work. And so I was prepared to, to maintain that as opposed to dropping them for the sake of, of, you know, B Corp certification. And B Corp understood that as well. They understood that right now, I think.

Yeah, I mean, I agree because when our daughter was born, she just wasn't getting enough nutrition to the point where when she was a few months old, we, we went to lunch with a mate of mine who's an anesthetist and one of his other mates is a. She's not an obstetrician. I think she might have been a gynecologist anyway. And, and my mate Adam, his wife is a nurse, so quite a lot of medical professionals around the table. And the next day he rang me and said, hey, you know, you just mentioned that, you know, my daughter she, she wasn't, she was in the lowest percentile for height and weight. You know, her hair's not growing very much. He said, you know, we had a bit of a chat as a group of medical professionals and I'm thinking, oh my God, he's gonna say she's got some really weird wacky incurable disease that, you know. And he goes, she's just not getting enough nutrition. Just get, just get on some formula. And we were like, really? And he's like, yeah, just smash the formula for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Smashed on the formula. She suddenly started growing hair. Started growing. Yeah. And I remember when we go slightly off piece here, but when my wife was in the hospital, you know, just having given birth, we sort of said, we get to point, say, look, she's really not, she hasn't eaten for a couple of days after being born. And we had an obstetrician and he said, just, just tell them to get you some formula. And so I had to go to the front desk, I had to sign a consent form, like a medical procedure consent form to get some formula. And I just, I was about, I mean, I was, we were both fairly sleep deprived and stressed as new, new parents. I, I almost lost my shit with them because I was like, I, I literally was working in the medical profession at the time, so why am I having to do this? Like, this is just absolutely ridiculous. My daughter is starving and you're making me jump through hoops. Anyway, I think the, I think for B Corp, the, the, because there has been some nefarious activity with breast milk substitutes in developing countries where, and I.

Think that's possibly like, I totally get the WHO guidance and you know, and, and yeah, particularly in New Zealand, you know, I know everyone adheres to that really strictly, but, and of course, like, obviously we want to make sure it's as safe as possible. So I 100 understand, but that is the one where I'm always like, nuanced.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this is the thing, you know, for me, you know, I, I believe B Corp is the best framework we've got. It's, it's, it helps people really connect to the idea of doing good purpose. How do we start it? It's a great framework. It's not perfect. It's not the silver bullet. I said that time and time again. There's, there's plenty of stuff in the B Corp assessment. There's some stuff I just don't agree with. That's how we solve that problem. But I'll provide that feedback to B Lab. But in terms of an overall heuristic framework to get us going in the right direction, it's the best that we've got and that's why I support it.

The B Corp team are always incredibly helpful. Like you know, if you've got the amount of resources available there, you know, we've asked them to join us for a. We've asked Prins, the PR Institute of New Zealand to run a B Corp for Communicators workshop and B Corp Month, sorry panel discussion, Baker Month. And they are like, you know, so keen to be involved, super happy to the amount of resources. They're always there to ask questions. So it's, it's definitely, you know, they're super open to that kind of feedback and obviously they're going through the, the kind of changes to their thing. But yeah, and there's never going to be one size fits all right. There's always going to be, you know, we are a contractor model business so you know, there's intricacies for us when we're going through that. But yeah, it's never going to be one size fits all. But I think the, the again that comes back to that intention. Right. And the intent is to help everyone be better and I do think that's what they do.

Yeah, no, I agree. So when, when did you come across BE Corp? When did it pop up on the radar for the business?

A few years ago. So obviously Eco Store, I mentioned to our client so they were going through their certification process and eventually got certified and we, you know, we hadn't really heard too much about it at that stage. I think it was, you know, kind of earlyish days. I think there's still a bit of an education awareness problem around B Corp, but that's another conversation we can part back to that.

And, but we were like, oh, you know, we, are we a bit small do. Is it just for the big, you know, big product based businesses like. And they really encouraged us to, to look into it and to, to go for it. So we, I think we started, it must have been 2018, 2019 where we kind of went to a couple of sessions run by B Corp to kind of look at what was required. And we were like, oh, okay, this is very much a big project. This isn't like a couple of days, fill out a couple of forms and you've got a tick type thing. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. And then obviously the pandemic hit and we really Just needed to focus on looking after our team and looking after our clients. With clients in particular, I think one of the things with COVID was it actually became really clear how important comms were. Things were changing constantly. People wanted answers and often, you know, a client couldn't necessarily give it to them, but they could say, you know, with the information we've got at the moment, this is the. This is what's happening. We'll update you again. So that kind of immediacy was really important. So we got, you know, pulled in for a lot, particularly like internal comms or just, you know, customer communications, as well as the. The wider pr, help with their social media, that kind of thing. So that kind of really took our focus for those years. And then 2001, kind of when we were coming out of that, we had the capacity to go, okay, let's actually look at really tackling this and getting.

It across the line nice and highlights, low lights, good, bad. I think the question I'd like to know is, like, was there anything that you were particularly surprised about? That you were like, oh, we didn't know that we were doing that, or.

Yeah, I. There were a couple of things. I think we're really pleasantly surprised at things that we were already doing.

But it gave us the opportunity to formalise it. Like, for example, one of the. Something we'd implemented with the team before we looked at B Corp was we have a 7 till 7 policy. So don't send any internal emails after 7pm and before 7am.

Unless it's obviously urgent or a client need. That's really important, in which case you'd pick up the phone and give them a call. And that. That was just internally with the team and we did a bit of analysis there and looking at how many emails came through between Those hours, like 95% of them were internal. So. And that was kind of just about respecting the team's family time. Haora and Whanau health and family are two of our core pillars at nspr. So it was about respecting that. That, you know, everyone in a world like comms, which is 24 7, whether you like it or not, often there's an expectation that you're kind of about. Sorry.

There'S an expectation that you're kind of there 24 7, which, you know, often if you. And it's not that people couldn't work in those hours if they wanted to go to swimming sports from two to four and then pick up some work that night, totally their prerogative, all good. But it was Just about, you know, giving permission that you didn't have to be available to me or to Nikki or to Rebecca or to the other directors at that time. And so that, you know, when we came to do B Corp was like, oh, okay, well that obviously really aligns with the, with the workers pillar didn't know like that we didn't do that because we wanted a good B Corp score. That was just something that we already wanted to implement for the team. And great. That that's kind. So there were a few things like that that it was really nice to.

Know that we were kind of on the right track already. We weren't kind of starting from scratch. I did like, like often looking at policies kind of not forced us, but encouraged us to go, okay, well actually, what does that mean? Like if we say we want, you know, a culture where everyone's respected and we'll do something about it. If you feel like that's not the case, what does that actually mean and what are those steps? So it was quite. I enjoyed that part of the process of actually getting to delve in a little bit deeper into things we were already doing, but maybe clarifying them a bit more and yeah, formalizing them, I guess. But yeah, I think probably what we were most pleasantly surprised with was that there were things we're already doing that were on track with the type of company we wanted to be nice.

And that's a pretty common refrain from the people we hang out with. They're like, they were already thinking like a B Corp. They have to. Like I said, the, the mindset and intent was there. We want to, we want to be a better company. We're doing some stuff. Wow, that's cool. We didn't realize that actually that, that was pretty good. But hey, here's a framework that lets us understand what we could do. And also, okay, let's actually start documenting some of this stuff so that we can actually prove it. And particularly I think we typically find when it's when there's sort of owner, sort of owner operators or director operators in the business, like, you know, in your head, that that's what we can do. But it hasn't necessarily always been explained to the team that we have a flexible working. There's a couple of companies we've worked with where the CEO, like with my head, I knew that you could all do that, but I just hadn't told you that and so sorry. But now it's a policy now, you know. Yeah.

And yeah, it's like, you know, it's all well and good for us to go. Oh, we. Health and family first, you know, but like, what does that mean? And like, what is there to back up that? That is actually the case? Yeah. Yeah. So it was good just for, I guess, a bit of self reflection and. And you know, there were. There are other elements that we weren't necessarily doing anything in. And so it was great for us to go. Okay, well, let's look at this like for example, community. As part of the B Corp process, we introduced like a more formalized policy where we would pay for volunteer time. So you get to choose what it is. It has to be a new charity. So it's about, you know, encouraging further give back into the community as opposed to I'm already doing this and now I can get paid for it.

Y.

You know, previously as a team, we'd, you know, the. On work time we'd pay to go pay the team, but as a group we'd go and do like a beach cleanup tied to keep New Zealand beautiful cleanup week or something. But this was more about encouraging them to give back to the community, but in a way that they weren't disadvantaged by. They didn't have to take, you know, not get paid for a day at work to, to go and do that. They could, they could do both.

Nice. Yeah, super cool. Love what you're doing.

And so what does being a big mean to you now that you know? Because when did you certify you Was? Were you 22 or 23?

Yes. December 2022. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah. What. What does it, what has it meant to you since you've been certified?

I think it's just a really good.

Like, lens to view everything with. Like, it's.

You know, we're really proud of being a B corp because we're proud of the work that that means that we've been able to do or you know, the work we've done on the business to kind of get to this point.

And I think it just, it's. It's a good lens to kind of view lots of things through. I think being a good B Corp moving forward, it's really important to us to be a good Te Tiriti partner as well. So we can, hand on heart, say we're a good Aotearo New Zealand company. And, you know, we've taken steps for that as well. We've brought on a cultural advisor, you know, the same way we would a legal advisor, which we have, or a financial advisor, which we have. And it's, I think about continuing to.

Make.

Take steps in that direction like we're talking about before. Like it's all a journey. But I think B Corp is a really good motivator to and you know, like it just helps you see the areas where you're not as strong and helps you put a plan in place to.

Makes steps in those in those areas.

Couldn't agree more. It's. Yeah, it's like I say it's not perfect but it's a great place to start I think because I think a lot, quite often some people, I think historically people have felt B Corp is like this unattainable status that a handful of companies have had which historically it has been quite a small. Well, it is still a small number. You know, I get excited when you go, I think we're up to about 136 or 138B Corps in New Zealand. We're almost at 8,000 globally. That's still, still not even close to 0.01% of companies in New Zealand or globally that are a bigger. So not even at 1% of the business world certified B corporations. So it feels like it's maybe bigger than it is but it's actually still pretty niche.

And French and I think when we certified which was into 2022, there there was under a hundred. So even in that kind of small space of time. So I do think it's snowballing and you know, obviously the more that get certified, the more awareness there'll be about it, I think. Yeah, there's, there will become a time where that is just the expectation that you, if you're not certified then you are playing in the space and doing those kinds of things anyway. And anyone else will kind of, they will struggle to get the, get the buy in from, from the team and also their customers.

Yeah, I mean we're definitely, you know, FMCG brands. Any if you're, if you're, if you're a consumer product brand and you're not a B Corp in the near future, you know, all of your competitors will be and if you're exporting out of New Zealand, you know, certainly the UK is just going bananas. They've got well over a thousand B corps now in the UK and a lot of health and beauty, food and beverage brands. So if you're looking to try and capitalize on overseas markets but and increasingly in the New Zealand market. Yeah, health and beauty, food and beverage.

And I think, you know, I would, I would struggle to name a new product last wee while that doesn't come out with some element of social good attached to it, whether that's like percent back to a nominated charity or charter to do work and underprivileged communities or.

Yeah, I think most new products or new brands kind of are aware that they, you know, whether that's the living wage or, you know, there needs to be some element that is more than just, oh, we've created this great new product and you should buy it. Cheers.

Yeah, totally. And I think those that do have a social lens or if they're claiming, you know, natural health products benefits, you know, organic or whatever, some kind of health benefit, increasingly people want to know for sure. It's like, will you say that you're doing that? But are you? And again, I think that, that for me, you know, when we're sort of talking to companies or talking to events around, you know, why B Corp? Well, it's the only, it's the only framework that's globally recognized. It's independent for independently verified, and it's social and environmental performance. And there's no other framework that matches all four of those. You can get other frameworks that are independently verified, but they're not social and environmental or they're not global. And. Yeah, and so that's why I think. Yeah, that's why I think it's, it's, it's rising to the top. And like I said, it's not perfect, but let's not go and reinvent it with another competing system which then dilutes and people get confused. Well, you know, like, like I said. Well, that has happened with Fair Trade. Like, a lot of people don't know that there's actually two different Fair trade organizations and, and one seemingly is better than the other, but the consumers don't know that. They just see Fair Trade.

Yeah.

Or they go, well, is Fair Trade better than Rainforest Alliance? I, I don't know. I haven't got the time to do the research. It's got a badge. I'll, I'll go with it. And I think that's where B Corp is cutting through, because it's, it's. I sort of describe it as almost like the Google of certification systems. If you're Rainforest alliance certified, that will feed into your B Corp. If you're Living Wage certified. Yeah, that'll feed into your B Corp. But use the B Corp to get that independent lens, independent verification across all the claims you're making. And then it's kind of like, here's the dossier to your customers, your potential employees, your stakeholders. We are doing the stuff that we say that we're doing. It's been signed off by an independent auditor.

And I think even if you don't make the certification first time, you'll undoubtedly be a bit of me because you put the effort in to try and get it. So even if there's still work to be done, you won't be starting from scratch. You will have created a really good foundation that makes you a better company. Which, you know, I do believe will in turn increase sales or brand or whatever it is that you're wanting to, to achieve with your business.

Totally. There was a piece, I don't know if you saw it, it was in NBR late last year. So B Lab globally have done like a meta analysis of the financial performance of B corps from various research papers and, and bits and bobs that have been out in the market. And basically the research shows that B Corp is either neutral or has a positive benefit on your financial outcome as a company. Whereas a lot of people have always said oh, but doing goods expensive, you know, oh, it's going to take time and money to transition to the. It's like, well it can do, but it doesn't have to. And long term. I was listening to a podcast the other day as well. I hadn't never heard of this company, but it's a massive company called the Magda Corporation. And they, they started off this guy in his work in his garage workshop doing tool and die cutting and stuff. And he eventually built it. It's like 170, 000 employee company, massive global corporation. And you know, he was talking about more around the worker side of things like it, they clearly do a lot of stuff that's not that environmentally friendly, including selling stuff into, you know, defense systems and stuff like that. But in terms of the people side of it, he said he learned very early on to, to and they, they have a, they, they have their own internal constitution where I can't remember the exact numbers, but all of their companies have to give 2% of revenue to charity. Well that's the B Corp threshold. They provide 10% of the company to employee ownership. 7 I think it was. 7% goes back to R&D. The shareholders get 20% and 30% goes to the management which they then split across them if that adds up to 400. And there was whatever. But it's like he, he saw and if I was listening to another podcast today, some US politician who's running for president and he again, they're talking about how, you know, business historically has been the people at the top get all the money and they do okay. But yeah, and this Magna Corporation, he said like the year after they instituted this new constitution, the revenue went through the roof and then year on year it doubled because the employees were so engaged because they knew that they had skin in the game. And so yeah, I think increasingly people are realizing that whether you commit to all of the parts of the assessment or you just start looking at parts of them, there's, there's, there's benefit to it. Which is why I guess they're called benefit corporations for one of the reasons.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Cool. So what, what's the. Yeah, I guess like looking into the future for B Corp. Where do you see the future of B Corp going? Have you sort of, you sort of mentioned. It's, it's. I think most of our guests hint that it's, it's going to become business as usual. But yeah, beyond that, what, what do you think the future holds for, for B Corp?

Yeah, I think.

Well, my hope is that. Yeah, like, because in an ideal world everyone would be B Corp certified. Right. So my hope is that, you know, there's still a real groundswell to encourage businesses to look at it and to do it. And then I would hope, you know, just every year more and more businesses are involved and then, you know, the whole point is about becoming better, I guess in terms of the recertification process and making sure that you're still making, you know, tracking elements.

And making continuous improvements. So I think it's really exciting because I think there's potential for there to be some really amazing.

Businesses to look to that. And I, I mean this is quite a generalization, but I feel like a lot of the B Corp businesses are always really open to sharing how they're doing things and kind of sharing that, that knowledge, which I think's fantastic because then, you know, you get that trickle down effect where you know, that can. People that are just starting on their journey can kind of look to those, those businesses as leaders and say that actually it can be done in a way that is good for people, it's good for. When it's good for, you know, the communities and you know, it just kind of is a snowball effect.

Yeah, totally. It's like the old Roger Bannister. Do you know this story? He was the guy who ran the first mile. Well, first recorded mile. I'm sure they're probably all right. Someone else who ran a mile, you know, sorry, the first 10 minute mile. Yeah, I'm sure the first 10 minute mile and you know him after he did it, like hundreds of people broke the threshold and it, it's like it needed someone to do it first to prove that it could be done and then everyone else like the level of belief that it could be done was well it's been done, therefore it can be done. And I think that just sort of echoes what you're talking about that there is now, I guess, you know, 8, like I say 8,000, no.01% of, of the global business community, give or take, you know, has set that platform of which you're a part of it and hopefully in five, 10 years time, you know, it'll maybe it'll just be a part of. If you're part of the PR Comms Institute or PRNS in New Zealand, you have to be a B corp before you can be a member. I mean, who knows? I just think. Yeah. That it's. Or at least some understanding of the, of the impact that you're having as a business beyond. We make some money for some people in an office somewhere. It's, it's. The general trend is heading that way. So yeah, let's watch this space.

And what about for NSPR or for K Grant? What does you got any big plans for 2024 or just. Yeah, well we've got Surviving Parenting, that as well.

But we do have some really cool projects coming up. I can't say too much about them but watch the space. But we've got some new clients that we're working with. We've got our kind of long standing clients that we've got exciting projects coming up for. Yeah, just really looking forward to.

Helping people. Yeah. Continuing to help people tell their stories and, and connect with their audiences.

Fantastic. And if people have been listening to this and go, you know what, I think I need a bit of PR in my life. Where can they come and find you guys?

Yes. So visit nsprltd.com or give me a call. My number is on the website. So. Happy to have a chat anytime. Yeah, we, we love just connecting with people in general. So even if, you know, comms isn't right for you right now. Super happy to have a chat around your business and what you're wanting to achieve and how we might be able to help whether we can. Often, you know, with businesses we kind of become an extension of their team. So we're kind of like a. We bolt on comms unit for them or can help with strategy and getting them set up before they kind of launch into stuff or if they're launching new products or a new brand. Yeah, we'd love to hear from anyone and everyone.

And do you just work with New Zealand brands? I should have asked that. Or do you go further afield?

No, we do have some Australian clients, but, yeah, predominantly in New Zealand. Yeah, and all over the motto all across the country. So, yeah, particularly, look, if someone's baker certified or on the baker journey, we'd love to, love to chat and hopefully.

They will reach out. And if you do reach out, have you listened to this podcast? Please mention this podcast because then Kate will know where you came from and we will close the loop.

Hey, awesome. Thank you for your time. Busy schedule early back in the year. You've got a young human to look after. Really appreciate your time, appreciate what you're doing. I think, you know, it's always great. I think service companies like ours, you know, you will now get to influence a lot of other companies because, you know, you talk to a lot of people and so I think, yeah, you'll not have a big impact spreading the, the word of the movement as well as just helping spread the word of all the awesome organizations that you're representing and, and doing that. So, yeah, keep it. Be great work and I hope you have a stellar rest of the year.

Oh, thanks, Tim. I just love to talk to you as well for the hard work that you're doing and spreading the word about B Corp and opening up these conversations. They're really great to have.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Well, hopefully someone's listening.

And on that note, we'll leave you to it and we'll see you next time.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp, how to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.