#82 The amazing story of Heilala Vanilla with cofounder Jennifer Boggiss

Hello, Kia ora Shimai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you to our regular listeners, as always for tuning in. If you, if this is your first time listening, if you have just tuned in to listen to today's guest, Jennifer, or if Jennifer maybe sent you to this podcast, thank you for tuning in. Hopefully you like this one and maybe you'll listen to the back catalog and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on because they all help. Anyway, enough about that with me today I have Jennifer. Is it bogus?

Bogus, yeah, bogus.

Should have checked beforehand. But hey, that's how we roll it. Very good. From. Hey La La Vanilla. Jennifer, how's it going?

It's great, thank you. Yeah.

And so when I always want to intro the podcast, I iota because we're in New Zealand. Shamai is Welsh for hello. In Tongan we would say.

There we go. Beautiful language, beautiful people, beautiful products, as we will find out. So yeah, Jennifer, just for people who don't know, you don't know. Hey La Vanilla, who are you and what you do?

So I'm Jennifer Boggess, the co founder and CEO of Heilala Vanilla. Heilala Vanilla is based in Tauranga in New Zealand along with Tonga in the South Pacific. So we're a vanilla company that. Yeah, I can get into to the details of as we chat through today. But yeah, we started in Tonga on the back of an a project and we now that was back in 2002, so we've been on quite a journey.

Nice. I, I would say you're anything but a vanilla company to be fair.

That's what I say to people. There's nothing vanilla about vanilla.

Vanilla. Yeah, it's how, it's how you do the vanilla. Yeah.

So, so what, what do you do with vanilla? You make products. Yeah. Tell us just so what is it that people can, can purchase from your beautiful product line and how we do.

A range of vanilla products. Obviously the vanilla beans, but that, that's a tiny part of our business. It's our vanilla extracts, vanilla paste powders, vanilla sugar. We do a range of seasonal flavored vanillas.

And we've just launched alcohol free range of vanillas. They just. Our alcohol free paste just won the New Zealand Food Awards supreme award. Won the pantry along with the business innovation award. Vanilla is typically extracted in alcohol, so we've worked away to do it without alcohol. So that's. Yeah, that's exciting. So we sell to home bakers, chefs and food manufacturers.

Nice. I know For a fact, we have some. Hey, Lala vanilla extract, which my daughter is. Every now and then she'll just go, I feel like baking something. And she'll whip up some cookies or sponge cake or something. So I know that we have imbibed the beautiful vanilla extract for baking for the home baker here. I had no idea that. Yeah, I was getting boozed while my daughter was making.

So you're only putting in a teaspoon. It's 35% alcohol. That's like the FDA standards for vanilla extract, but obviously it bakes off. But alcohol free is required in various cultures, particularly in the Middle East, London and. Yeah, and it's great for applications where you're not baking. So ice creams or smoothies or if you want to use it in your porridge, you know, and with children and things.

Yeah, yeah. Well, there we go. I've learned something. And we are just a handful of minutes into this episode. That's super cool. And so maybe we'll wait, we'll come back into the innovation part of that. But how did you get into selling vanilla? Was that the childhood dream of Jennifer growing up to be the world's best.

No, it wasn't the childhood dream of Jennifer. I grew up on a dairy farm. My father was quite an entrepreneur. On reflection, I didn't really realize it at the time. So he was a dairy farmer, a squash grower and sweet corn grower. He also built boats and he was a keen spear diver. So for his milestone birthday, he wanted to take his boat to Tonga and celebrate his birthday and go spear diving. So we all went up there. We didn't go on the boat. We flew, celebrated his milestone birthday and really fell in love with the people in the place of the Va' u in the northern islands of Tonga. And then dad came back, brought the boat back, and there was a cyclone that on New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, 2002. And it did a lot of damage. It was really significant. And dad wanted to help a particular family in a village that he'd come to know. So he sent them some money to repair their roof. And then he realized the damage was a lot more extensive. So he went back with a group of his Rotary mates and they did a whole lot of rebuilding work. And after that, the head of the village said to him, you know, as a farmer, John, what can you. What could we grow here that would provide, you know, employment for my family and community? So dad, being the farmer that he was, looked around. Vanilla had grown there in the Past he went on a worldwide vanilla journey to Madagascar, Reunion Island, Costa Rica, Tahiti planted vanilla. And in 2005 he handed me the first crop, which was about 45 kilos, and said, you know, we've started something here, we're going to have to keep it going for these people. And I was an accountant at the time. I was a bit bored with life and I took it back to some chefs in New Zealand and showed them and they said it was the best vanilla they'd ever seen. So that was sort of the start of the journey. I didn't leave my day job until 2008. So. Yeah.

Wow, that's a.

That'S such a super cool backstory and quite a bit to unpack there.

Yeah, that's, that's not the typical kind of startup business journey of. I've got a, I've got a bit of an idea, you know, I'll go and give it a go, maybe see what happens. I mean that's been. We've done quite a few episodes recently and there seems to be a bit of a theme of I kind of had an idea, I gave it a go. But this is, I guess, you know, from the, from the B Corp impact lens kind of thing. It, it's really coming from, from like a. The heart, soul of look, we, we want you to come and help us and there's, there's a, there's a real need here rather than, you know, I always sort of say in the startup world, quite often it's like, oh yeah, it's another drone delivered pizza idea. It's like, yeah, do we, do we really need it? It's kind of like it's a, maybe a. Nice to have on a, you know, on a fun day. But yeah, actually helping economic development and therefore community development in a place that's just been ravaged through a natural disaster. That's pretty meaningful stuff.

Yeah, so my, yeah, my dad did that initial rebuilding project and then him and his group of mates have done one every year right up until 2019 was the last one obviously because of COVID.

And Hey La La Vanilla also during that time was involved in those projects and you know, established the hey La Vanilla foundation to, to make.

Formalized and structured and transparent. I suppose. So, yeah, we've always been focused on doing good. We call ourselves the good Vanilla because of. Yeah, that the, the place where we came from and we're. And it still holds super true and you know, guides us today.

And hey.

Lala, does that have a meaning?

Heilala is the national Flower of Tonga. They have the annual Heilala festival. It's a little white flower that turns a pink red when you dip it in salt water. So it's got lots of myths and legends. It's used in beautiful lays. And it's also the name of one of the daughters of the village leader that said to my father, you know, what can you do? So it's sort of, you know, when I brought those first vanilla beans back, I thought, what can we call them? I can't just say, these are Tongan vanilla beans. So yeah, it was, oh, hey, Lala. I really like that word. I like what it stands for.

So it's, it just sounds, it's really upbeat and positive. It's like there's a town in north sort of northeast usa, I think it's, it's. I can't remember what state it might be. Oh, it's northeast, it's called Kalamazoo and it's sitting there. How can you be upset living in the town called Kalamazoo? It's such an upbeat, happy name. And I think, hey, Lala, just. It's upbeat, it's happy, it just kind of cap and it captures the essence, vague pun intended, of, of everything you're trying to do. Yeah, because I think, yeah, it's, it's really is interesting. Look, I did this workshop I did with a friend yesterday. I can't name his company name yet because he's just starting out and he's, he's like, I don't want to put the name out there, but the name of his company just like, it's such a great name which encapsulates everything that he does. It's like, man, that's genius. And yeah, the B Corp community seems to be quite full of well named companies that describe, you know, the impact and the connection to what they're doing. So yeah, I don't know whether it's, whether we are attracted to it because we're a certain type of person that likes sort of doing good. I don't know, maybe that's a project for an MBA student or a postgrad somewhere. So. So accounting. Yeah. Getting into accounting, you know, was. Was purpose doing good, like on your radar growing up or were you just kind of like, I'm going to go and trade, be an accountant, get a job as an accountant and count lots of numbers for the rest of my life and I'll be pretty happy?

No, you know, I was good at it at school. Went to uni, did an accounting and marketing degree. Accounting jobs were easy to get after uni, so kind of fell into it really. And then when I was, you know, right up until I had children, I was doing accounting. And then when I had two young daughters, I was a part time accountant. So, you know, in 2000, when my father was taking his boat to Tonga, I was doing a bit of soul searching and I was just like, accounting. And I was an accountant for a trucking and a forestry, like a trucking company that worked in the forestry industry. So it wasn't kind of really floating my boat or inspiring me. So I wanted to do something more purpose driven. And I was doing, yeah, lots of soul searching, as I say. But then obviously my father handing me, you know, those first vanilla beans was a bit of a pivotal moment. And I thought, wow, purpose found me. So, yeah, I, you know, it didn't happen straight away. I. We went on a. A family road trip, my husband and I and two daughters in the States in 2007. And I looked at vanilla on the shelves in some, you know, food stores and I thought, oh, they look like boring brown medicine bottles to me. They're kind of this sea of brown and beige. And I thought, we can do something so much more exciting and vibrant. And that was really. Yeah. Then I cat. We came back from that trip and my husband has a background in I. T. And technology, so he was sort of the. The R D arm. My father was obviously growing vanilla. And then I was like, okay, well, I've got to sell it. So, yeah, that. That's how it sort of started. And so I remember sitting down at my desk in 2008 in January, thinking, wow, what's the worst that can happen? You know, if it doesn't work out, then I'll just go and get a job as an account.

Um, but yeah, it worked out nice.

Yeah, it's. Are you. Do you know the brand Dr. Peppers? Yeah, no, it's. It's not a common brand in New Zealand. I don't think so. No, Their tagline was, you know, try it. What's the worst that could happen? But you know, you might like it better than coke. So I love that phrase because I've used it a few times in workshops and go, you know, it's like a Dr. Pepper's moment. People just go, I don't know what you're on about, mate. So thank you for the cultural reference and having that one. So you had this bag, bag of vanilla.

Did you just. What, you went to the, like, I don't know. Did you go to the Rotary and say, hey, does anyone, is anyone anyone making a cake? Do you want some vanilla? Or did you like how? Or did you go down to the local restaurants and soup, you know, so hey, how did you sell them, work.

Out what to do with it? Well, yeah, those first vanilla beans, we took to some chefs to try it. And at that stage we weren't even thinking that far ahead. We just thought, oh, we'll just sell, you know, just grow vanilla beans and sell vanilla beans. But then you realize it's such a tiny little market. Vanilla beans. And once you look at that baking category, you realize these vanilla extracts, vanilla. Our pace was very innovative. So we had to do some R and D. Partnered with Massey University in New Zealand. It's not like you can kind of dial up on the Internet how to make vanilla extract. Well, you couldn't back in 2006, 7, 8. And we did a project with Massey and started making vanilla extract. So and then I just looked, I. We went to some really sort of high end chefs in New Zealand, then went to some specialty retailers. For those that are in Auckland, Farrow Fresh was one of our first customers. And then we just sort of found our way really. And then so in New Zealand once we had some chefs and we had some specialty retailers, then we went across the ditch to Australia and did the similar there. In each state was basically a different market. And then, yeah, we just grew from there, really listened to customers, market trends, spent a lot of time in market. And the US is like the home of vanilla. There's this book, I think part of the reason why my father fell in love with vanilla because he says once you into vanilla, you're kind of like hooked because it's this whole mystic, you know, there's a lot of history, there's a lot of romance, there's a bit of, you know, wars. It's quite a nothing vanilla about vanilla. So there's this book called the Vanilla or the Ice Cream Orchid it's called and it's all about vanilla. It's history and everything. But yeah, and the US market is really the home of vanilla. It's one of the presidents, I think it was Jefferson kind of invented vanilla ice cream.

And as Americans have great baking season from Halloween through to, you know, Christmas, January, there's lots of baking in the home. They understand what real vanilla is. There's labeling and FDA regulations about vanilla. So we knew pretty early on that if we were going to be serious in the vanilla world, you know, we had to really be in that US market. So yeah, I just, just spend a lot of time in market and research and yeah, it's amazing what you can pick up and network with people.

100%. Yeah. There's, you know, Perry Drysdale from Untouched World. We had her on the podcast, I think it was last week, sort of similar kind of story. She had a couple of young kids. She started making these mittens with some sort of leftover wool and then went down to some local markets in Christchurch and sold them. And then one, one lady in one of the shops sort of said, look, you need to sell these at a higher price and call them handmade premium wool. And then she did, and then she sold more of them and then her and her husband moved to the States for his work and then she just went and started selling them in the US and that was kind of like the beginning of the. And I think it's for anyone who's starting a business, it's like, just go and hit the streets, keep shaking hands, say g'. Day.

Hey, we also did, you know, we also did farmers markets in the beginning. Yeah, yeah.

I'm really intrigued about this history of vanilla and vanilla wars. Tell me about that.

So vanilla was in kind of, I don't know, not invented, but it was first grown and discovered in Mexico in the 1800s. And it was used along with cacao for royalty as, like drinks and perfume. Vanilla was in its raw form. And then from there it was taken to England, you know, again for royalty. And then it was somehow put in a.

You know, in a glass house in England, and it was transported to Reunion Island. But it was another 120 years until it was discovered how to act and to pollinate vanilla. Because in Mexico, there's a bee that pollinates vanilla. Outside of Mexico, there's no bee. So it took 120 years to discover that you had to hand pollinate vanilla for a vanilla bean to grow. So again, it's quite sort of magical. The flower opens, it has to be hand pollinated within four hours, otherwise it dies nine months later. Later like a baby. So they call it the love bean. You get a green vanilla bean that's mature and then you have to pick it and ferment it and cure it over three months. So it's really like 12 months from that flower being pollinated to having a mature.

Aromatic vanilla bean that's. That's ready for consumption.

So, yeah, the vanilla has grown 20 degrees either side of the equator. So it's in that, you know, narrow ring around the globe. And I think just based on some of those countries where it's located, it's been, you know, used and traded in some in history, like gold almost. Its price fluctuates. Back in 2013, 14, I think it got to the same price as silver per kilo. So it's come off, you know, from that. But yeah, it's just. Again, it's nothing vanilla about vanilla.

No. And so I guess it's like a commodity. Yeah. If it's being traded for royalty, then so yeah, what wars fought around, I guess.

Yeah.

Getting, getting hold of the vanilla. It's one of the. Because you just, I guess.

It'S, it's flavor that you just imagine has always been here. You don't think that it's actually that recent, but I guess, yeah, like most, you know, salt and pepper, you know, or, or any of those sort of spices or extracts. It's. Yeah, it's. It was kind of discovered. Yeah.

Like they call like salt, like similar to salt. Vanilla is the underwear of baking. They say, you know, if it's, if it's not there, but you don't know if it's there and it's similar to salt. Right. You know, if something.

Yeah.

If there's no salt, but you don't necessarily know that, that it's in there.

That's awesome. I think that might just be the title for this podcast. The underwear.

That's super cool. And so, so bringing it to Tonga.

How did people react to that? Because I guess it's, it's, it's a non native, you know, species or variety that you're taking somewhere. Was that a consideration or you know, is Tonga or does Tonga already have other, you know, varieties of plant and food that I guess typically western importations of stuff that's probably been taken there by various missionaries over the years before that. But was. Was there any consideration around that or were they like, yeah, look, this just sounds great.

No, there was consideration because. So it had been based in Viva, in the northern islands of Tonga, where my dad was thinking, what can I grow to provide employment for these people? It had to be something that wasn't perishable because there was no reliable freight, you know, and if it was to be exported and not just for the local market to be sort of a sustainable employment model.

So he looked at various things. Limes, I think was one thing he looked at. And. But vanilla had grown there in the 70s and the 80s from an American company that kind of went in and went out again pretty quickly. And so, you know, he knew that it could grow there and There was some abandoned vanilla farms, so he was able to get cuttings and set up that first farm on the Latu's family's land. So in Tonga, you can't own, you can't buy or sell land. You can lease land. And as each eldest son from each family, you know, has an allotment. So, yeah, we, that first partnership was with the Latu family on their allotment, which is still there today. Yeah.

So the land is owned by the.

Is it by the Latu family? And we lease it from.

All right. So yeah, so as a foreigner, you can't own any land. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Cool.

And then now, you know, we've got sort of 300. We've got up to 300 growers across multiple islands in Tonga that we work with. And then in addition, we also have two 50 acre plantations that we've developed in partnership with a family up there. That is land owned by the king that he gave us the right to occupy that land on the basis of providing employment and economic development for the, for the island.

Nice. Super cool. And so that it was all well received because, because, you know, I guess there's oftentimes this, the concept that, you know, it's, it's the Western savior coming in, you know, and, and I guess there are sometimes when it has, you know, it is done really badly, there's been lack of consideration for local culture and ownership and what have you. Yeah. Was. Did you do anything particularly around that? Or were you just empathetic and following the lead of, of the family? Like how. Was there anything. Yeah. Specific around? And were you nervous about, you know, hey, look, it's, you know, these kiwis coming over telling you how to, how to run your. Run your show.

Yeah. I think my dad is quite a special person, if I do say so myself. And obviously, you know, he was doing those aid projects every year. So we had alongside this vanilla plantation for the Latu family. So he had a lot of respect from the locals and a lot of relationships that he built with people. So they knew that he was wanting to do this from a place of helping them. It wasn't, you know, he was 60 plus. He wasn't there, you know, to build this big business empire or anything. He was there to genuinely help communities.

And.

Everybody in Viva is quite wary of the Palangi, the, the European, because they've seen people come in and out. You know, as I say now, some kind of 20 years later, you know, you see people come in and out, flash the cash, turn up A year later, expect something to be as it was when they left a year ago. And it's just not the case. So we're very fortunate that we have really strong relationships that we've built with both our partner families that we work with and smallholder farmers. So, you know, we're all about taking Tonga's vanilla to the world in partnership with them.

Yeah, yeah. Rather than. Because, I guess the risk is exploitation, isn't it? It's like, hey, you kind of don't know the good thing that you've got well, but, you know, that's okay. We'll help you take it to the world. And actually, you know, we're doing really, really well. And you're getting nothing. But having worked with you on your B Corp, I know that that's not the case because of how you're. How you're running it, which is. Yeah, it's super cool. So how did you. So, yeah, in terms of, like, baking. Because. Because I think it's fair to say you had the impact, really, what, you know, solidly baked in before you went on the B corp journey. So the B corp really was proof, you know, cementing. And possibly just lemon squeezing a couple of bits of. Of what you were already doing. So you've got the foundation, you've got, you know, you've got employees over there. How did you go about structuring it in a way, so that it was a partnership, so that the, you know, the Tongan side of the entity, you know, was involved and was. Was, I guess, treated equitably. Like. Because I'm guessing you hadn't set up a global vanilla business whilst you were an accountant and your dad was busy being a farmer. So how did you navigate that process? And any tips or tricks?

Gosh, I'm trying to think back.

I mean, we had a separate.

Tongan company, we had a New Zealand company.

But common shareholding between both.

I'm just. I mean, we really involved the Latu family right from the beginning because. Yeah. That they're there there, you know, and. And really let them sort of lead it in a way. Because, like you mentioned before, my dad has always said this. He said, you know, there's nothing worse. They're not going to respect you if you just turn up once every six months and say, you know, do it this way or the highway kind of thing. So it was a real partnership.

My dad spent a lot of time there, working a lot. You know, he's a farmer. Talking to farmers as well. I think it's a Different that, that also, that situation is unique.

And we also work really closely with an NGO in Tonga called Mordi and have right from the early days, which stands for Mordi is mainstreaming of rural development and innovation. And they're all about empowering rural farming communities. So we're very much aligned and work closely with them. So, you know, at a, at a village and a farmer level, we've kind of got that relationship that, you know, it cements an element of respect.

Yeah, but it's something we all, you know, continually work on.

Also His Majesty giving us the right to occupy his land was another sort of.

You know, is that additional level of respect as well in the local community. And then setting up the hey La Vanilla foundation, which we did back in 2013 and did various sort of ad hoc projects. But back in January 2022 when there was the big natural disaster of the eruption in the tsunami, we did a fundraising without international community and raised 180,000. And then from then we did $0.05 per unit. So now we have a much more formalized.

And transparent impact.

Model that, you know, we have. It's, it's run separately, it's got separate governance, it has Tongan trustees from various, you know, stakeholders in Tonga. So it feels very connected. Yeah. And collaborative.

Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, that, that was a word I was gonna say. It's, it's collaborative, it's partnership, it's. And I think the peer, you know, peer to peer, it's, it's, you know, I think that, that, that's really sort of that genius of, you know. Yeah. Your dad understands farming, we understand farming. We, we just, we understand different parts of farming. If we put the two together, you know, your dad could bring in the external idea and some systems and processes maybe and thoughts. But hey, we've got this tradition. We know what we're doing, we understand the land, we understand, you know, the cycles, the seasons, what have you. And I think it's, it's interesting because obviously.

Within the New Zealand context, Teo Maori principles of business, you know, long term thinking, partnership, collaboration, you know, think about people and planet. Lots of overlaps with B Corp. Did you, having been through the B Corp journey, did you get a sense that is that how business or how the farmers you are working with in Tonga, do they work to similar principles of, you know, long term thinking? Yeah.

No, they're very. Because their crops outside of vanilla.

I think what we've been able to provide is some encouragement and support for growing vanilla because typically they grow crops that are like cash crops. Three months, taro, yam.

Bananas, things that they can sell on the local market and there's a quick cash payback to support their families where. And then there's kava which has a similar.

More long term horizon. But it's something that they use in their culture so they can understand it and relate to it a bit more. Whereas vanilla is this, they don't use it in their culture and it's a really long term thing. Like you plant a cutting, you've got to plant a host tree for that cutting. Four years later, if you're lucky, you'll get your first flower and then a year later you're going to get a vanilla bean. So it's a really long horizon. So typically it's grown alongside all those other crops so that the farmer has a balance of, you know, long term and short term income and you know, provides more sort of resilience I think when they've got, you know, other crops as well. So yeah, no, that the vanilla and having us there growing. We know we started growing vanilla on that one allotment of land. Yeah. That sort of provided.

Encouragement and a level of security because they know that we are there every year. We're not like a palangi that's turned up in the past and comes back next year but then they never see them again. So you know, we've been very consistent and supportive right through the, the journey and will continue to be nice.

No one's thought about taking the bee from Mexico and bringing the bee, I guess.

I don't know. Even in Mexico now they hand pollinate it because I don't think the bees reliable enough.

Right. So there's naughty bees that'd be, you know, for a B corp, you could, you could, yeah, it could be a sideline B business, bee importation. But I suppose that's got a whole.

There's not many bees in Tonga at all because when my father was thinking about, about crops like avocados or something. Yeah. There was no beef.

Interesting. You just don't, you just don't. You don't think about how many. I mean, I suppose increasingly we, we're being told and the whole, you know, take your car for a drive and how many bits of bugs hit the windscreen does. It does seem to be less and less every year. But yeah, you don't sort of think about oh, how many bees are there? I suppose, yeah. Tropical island, lots of wind, a small piece of land. Chances of B finding it or getting there is pretty low. I Suppose so, yeah. Tell us a bit more about the impact that you've got baked in. So because you've got the business in Tonga, you've got the foundation providing support. Yeah. Talk to me about how you'll make an impact on the ground. What's sort of good that you're doing.

So really our impact's kind of divided into two areas. One is in the area of vanilla farming. So we measure like volume of vanilla.

Training.

At the moment we're doing like a regenerative soil trial where we've planted an area on our farm of like a mucuna bean that we then monitor. And then if we get the right results, we share those mucuna bean seeds with other farmers. So this kind of the vanilla farming impact side where we want to build a really robust, you know, and strong vanilla industry for Tonga. Then the other side is really around community development. So it's in community vanilla, you know, rural communities. Centers around.

Family well being. So we do one off projects for families that.

We find out about through being on the ground or through our team finding out there. We've done things like an outboard motor for a family on an outer island. We did a sewing machine and a overlocker for two young girls that wanted to set up their own sewing clothing business.

We've recently just fenced a property for a widow, a lady that was recently widowed. And she wanted to grow vegetables and flowers to sell on the local market. And that was a way of. Of supporting her was to fence her property. So that for the, you know, animals, pigs and things, not trampling it and damaging the plants. So yeah, that community development is centered around an impact centered around family well being, education, something that's really close to our heart. So we've done quite a few school support projects. You know, whether it's desks and chairs, equipment and other resources.

And then. Oh, gosh, I'm having a mind blank. The third one, there's three areas under community.

Yeah. So it's family well being and education. Gosh, I'm gonna have to have a mind blank about that. I'm just in the process of writing our annual impact report. So we publish it. We've published an annual impact report since 2020 where we outline all our impact.

And oh, the other one's emergency relief. So we allocate funding every year for emergency relief. Obviously last year we had the huge disaster we that we provided like Covid care kits to communities that were feeling very isolated.

And you know, there's been various cyclones and things and We've provided whatever support is recognised as needed that's not being met by some of the other support agencies. One year, we did 30 chainsaws to farmers on one island that were particularly badly damaged and needed to clear their farms.

So, yeah, those are the.

Plenty going on.

Yes.

Nice.

So, yeah, and the foundation, like I said, we have five trustees, so three of those are Tongan and myself and my father. So.

Yeah, we've got lots to focus on.

Your father must be feeling pretty proud with what you've achieved. I mean, it's almost like, you know, here's a hospital pass. Hey, here's some vanilla. Go do something with it.

And you know. Yeah, I was, you know, he's 8. He's 82 now, and I just talked to him this morning. He's up in Tonga at the moment, up in favela at the moment.

And, you know, it's. It's as much as it's his passion, really is and continues to be. So. My mother thinks he's crazy and she's like, do you think he's still going to be there when he's 90? I'm like, probably more than likely by.

The sounds of it.

I mean, there's worse places to have to go and hang out, you know, with your crazy husband. Oh, no. To Tonga again. Oh, what a. What a drag.

Yeah. But, you know, as he's. He's aged and he's got younger. My mother's age, she's got older, so she doesn't go to Tonga anymore.

So.

Yeah.

Oh, right. So there's a bit of a but, yeah. That's a shame.

So you, You. You've lots of baking puns intended. You've baked in all this impact, you know, from day one when, when. So when did B Corp pop on the radar as. And, and what. And why the interest in. In B Corp? Because you. You were kind of, you know, you're. You're like, I say, you're atypical in many ways. Of all the companies we work with, most of them are starting their journey to work out how do we do more good. And, you know, B Corps. A framework to have a think about that. And not many companies unlock an impact business model like you did, or I think you unlock more than one impact business model.

We unlocked three. Governance, community and environment. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, and you were already doing that, and you had been doing that pretty much from day one. So that's. That's quite special, you know, because most other companies are just. Aren't doing that. So yeah. Why? Why B Corp and when did it pop up on the, on the radar?

So it popped up on my radar. I think I was trying to have a think about this. In 2013, I was at the US on a, @ a, a trade show. Like they have this annual big food show called Expo west for all natural specialty, not just food actually, but anything natural consumer products basically. So it's. And B Corp had a stand there and they must have had a couple of food brands that were B Corp on their stand. And I just remember looking at it and thinking, wow, that is cool. Like, and that's kind of who we are. So I always kind of had it in the back of my mind, but I didn't, you know, we weren't a big business at all. I mean I still don't think we're, you know, we're a small SME today, but back then we were a lot smaller and we weren't really in the US as such. So I kind of always parked it in the back of my mind. And then I think it wasn't until it was about 2019 and that sort of came up on the, in the New Zealand, Australian landscape, you begin to hear about it a bit more. And we thought it's just something that really resonated with us. So we had a look at it and realized that naturally, like you mentioned, we sort of just, you know, it seemed like it was a real natural fit for us. And there's so many. We'd looked at other certifications in our journey like organic Fair Trade. Oh, there's so many you can do.

But B Corp felt like the one that was a natural fit for us. And to me it sort of encompassed a whole lot of other things as well. It wasn't just on one specific area. So to me B Corp covers fair trade, it covers organics to some extent because you're not harming the planet and doing what you're doing.

So yeah, it was a natural fit, I think. And we did that. I remember doing that initial like, you know, on the B Corp website and going through and answering the questions and to see what school we would get in that sort of initial draft assessment. And I think we were at 90 something. But you know, we didn't really think too much about a lot of the questions obviously when we then worked with you and realized that there was other things that we hadn't even thought. Thought about. Like you said, squeeze the lemon a bit more. Yeah. And unlock some, A couple of things. Further things. And yeah, got ended up where we were through the process, but yeah. So to us it's just a natural extension of who we.

Are.

Yeah. So we didn't really have to change.

Anything. No.

Which is, you know, that's cool. You know, it just. For me, you know, B Corp was in some ways almost made for a business like yours. It's like, you know, this, this is. We, we've been doing all this stuff. This is now the independent verification to prove that all the claims we've been telling you are actually true. And we, we are now benchmarked against a global framework to.

Demonstrate. Yeah. Which is.

Awesome. Remember what your final score.

Was? It was, it's 104.7, which, you.

Know, is a really good score. You know, it's proof that you've got, got you. Typically you don't get over the hundreds unless you've got impact business models. So, you know, just genuine proof that the work you're doing is good. So. Yeah. Were there any surprises or. Yeah. Anything unexpected as you went through the assessment? Any, any parts of the business that you could. That you've maybe gone. Oh, hang on, we haven't really looked at that one before. Or. Oh, hang on. We, we possibly.

Need. It was probably the, the environment area that we weren't that. What's the word? Structured around in terms of, you know, capturing water usage, power use, you know, those sorts of environmental. That, yeah, that, that was probably what I felt was our weakest section. And it. But, you know, then we became, then we realized, working with you that, you know, we have a zero waste process.

Which is patented. So.

You know, that got added, you know, in that submission review, you know, in the review phase before we submitted this certification. But, and that's the section that I think we've got the most room to improve and grow on, which, you know, I'm quite excited about in terms of.

The way the world's going in terms of, you know, carbon sequestration possibilities that we can do with vanilla. You know, I have a, I have a personal mission to be the first carbon positive vanilla company in the world.

So yeah, there's, there's lots of exciting things I think that we can do in that environment space. Obviously looking at the new standards and how that fits into that. But. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, it's, it's a great tool to verify the good you're doing, but it's an impact guide to shine a light on. Okay. Where can we be better? Which, you know, which is why we call our, our program the Be Better program. You know, use B Corp to become a better business. And it's, it's a moving feast. You know, there's. And there's going to be, you know, like you say that the new assessment's going to be coming out. I think it's 2025. It's looking like now it's going to.

Be. Be launched, which is when we're up for recertifications. I don't.

Know. Yeah, it's, it's the, the rumor we're hearing on the grapevine is that it's most likely that you would still be able to certify under the current system for your next recertification because they recognize that companies have kind of built their business like, you know, mine is an example. I've built my business since 2016 around this framework and it's going to take me a while to change, to change my business to meet the new standard. So my understanding is there's going to be like a grace period, potentially of at least one recertification cycle to give you time to align to the new standards. But don't quote me on that, but that's the room that I've heard. Yeah. So, yeah, it's an impact guide to. Just to let you know, you know, think about where, where you could do. Do more good and. So what does being a B corp mean to.

You?

Like you mentioned, I think it's real validation of our purpose and of being, you know, the good vanilla.

Part of a global community. It feels, you know, really good to be part of that community, especially when you read about other B corps and you think, yeah, we're in the, you know, we're in this, we're all in this together to make the world a better place. So it feels part of, it feels great to be part of something bigger and, you know, a bigger movement.

So, yeah, I feel really proud and the business feels really proud to be, you know, a B corp.

So, yeah, those are the two sort of key things. Really nice.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's echoed by most people, that sort of sense of community.

Yeah. Have you got Jamie Oliver using your vanilla yet? His, his. His.

Company. Oh, is.

It? Yeah, the Jamie Oliver Group is a B corp. So maybe. Yeah, maybe see if we can. Come on, come.

On. Internet Sydney at the moment.

Actually. Oh, well, okay. Have you got any, anyone in the team in Sydney or a good mate over there who you could, you know, go and try and find the hotel he's in and just, yeah, put a big tub of vanilla. This is, I'm sure this is the Internet. We've put it out there now. It's in the.

Ether. It's gonna, it's gonna happen, it's gonna.

Happen.

So, you know, so you're now running a B corp, but you've, you've been an impact driven business for, you know, since day one. So how have you managed to balance purpose and profit? Because there is, there is always this tension to, you know, take the money or do the good and you need the money to do the good and sometimes you've got to take slightly dirtier money to enable yourself to keep going so that you can do more good ultimately. Not that I'm suggesting you, but you know what I mean, Sometimes we have to do things that are less impactful or less aligned with, with how we'd want to do it because you've got to keep the lights on and you've got a team and you're a growing company. So. Yeah. Any sort of stories or anecdotes or have you got a theory as to how you approach that? Making tough.

Decisions?

Well, I think we're very fortunate because from day one we were, you know, a purpose driven business.

So when we went, you know.

Vanilla, a vanilla business is a very cash, it's a real long term cash cycle as I outlined before. So you have a real, as you're growing, you have a real requirement for working capital. So we've, we've done two capital raises and when you're pitching your business for capital, you, you know, you're pitching your story and alongside that you're pitching your growth journey and where you think you can take the business. So the shareholders that came on, you know, that are involved in hey la la vanilla, they're all very aligned around our purpose. And that's when you ask them, you know, why did they invest? The, the key thing really is that they're really aligned with the doing good.

So I feel incredibly fortunate that we have, you know, that, that group of shareholders, we also have a board of directors representing those shareholders and they're also very aligned. But you know, on the flip side, like you said, we're a growing business. We have KPIs.

And you know, aspirations.

To grow. So but at the same time we're really aligned around the purpose. And I think having the foundation as a structure, we have, you know, that line on our p l of $0.05 every unit. So every month you see what's going to the foundation. I think that level of kind of transparency and also having that structure. So it's almost like it's a Non negotiable kind of line on our P L.

It just, you know, I, we've never really had. I can't really remember any sort of challenging conversations about, you know, tension conversations about, about that.

Purpose and profit.

Because to me the purpose and the impact never feels like it's at the expense of, of profit. Because even if you have a bad financial year, it's not like you can say it's because you know, we did this impact or we, you know, we spent this money here. It's, it's usually related to much bigger things that are very business related. So I feel like if the business is. And the model that we've set up now with the $0.05 per unit, you know, like if the business grows and we keep selling more vanilla and new markets and customers, then obviously the impact's going to grow as well. So it's just like a, a really circular model that, that works for us which I, you know, I feel very grateful for because really at the heart of me is, you know, my personal why is about, you know, making a difference in people's lives. So.

Yeah, that's unfortunate to have people around me that are also aligned on.

That. Nice. Yeah, that's. I think you need to reflect on how rare that is because we're definitely seeing more broadly in governance. A lot, a lot of governance people don't understand the impact side of it. You know, because traditional director trading is, you know, shareholder primacy maximize financial return. Yes. There's increasing consideration about environmental issues but fundamentally, yeah, fundamentally it's still, you know, the, the driver is, is the shareholder primacy, what's the return? And again what, what you've done is what I think every B corp should be aspiring to is index the impact to the revenue. You know, so, so you scale, you make more good. And, and as you said, your, your business, the impact you're making is not reliant on sort of external factors. But if you have a bad year, you're still making a proportionate amount of impact as opposed to oh well, we had a really good year this year. We'll donate some money to charity but we had a bad year this year. Okay, we can't afford to do it. And so it's kind of disconnected and lumpy but also, you know, above and beyond, you know, the charitable contribution is, is almost like the bonus because you've also just got the core good that you're doing by employing people on good wages, providing opportunity, hope, meaning jobs, you know, all the rest of it. Which is, which is the, the day to day. So it's. You like a bonus component of the charitable side of things, almost. So, yeah, no, I think you're, you're a great example of a, of just an awesome B corp doing good, you know, at every level of the business.

And I'd put you up there, you know, with the top of them, like, like the antiques, you know, it's, it's like everything that you do is just, it's just good. It's. I think you're. The way I always look at it is if you look at the business, how, how easy is it to criticize the business for not doing stuff? And I look at you, I look at a teak and a few others and you go, it's really hard to kind of go, yeah, but you're not doing this because you're doing so much good and it's baked in. So I think you need to, you need to know that because I think quite often people like yourself running these businesses, you like the fishing water, you don't recognize that, you know, you're just doing it because, because you've always done it that way because that's how you, how you set it up. Because you're a great human. And so, yeah, what you're doing is genuinely next level. So go. You.

You mentioned innovation a couple of times. So does that sort of entrepreneurial spirit? I mean, entrepreneurial spirit and accounting aren't sort of typically.

People who know me well know that I typically pick on accountants and marketing people. I pick on accountants because I don't understand numbers. So that's purely a projection of my inability to do numbers. And that is all thanks to Mrs. Dalrymple, who was my maths teacher when I was about 7, who said I was an idiot because I couldn't understand what she was teaching me. So I was like, cool, okay, well, I'll stop learning. I use mindset and I pick on marketing people because I'm a reformed sales guy. And we always pick on marketing people because they just shouted us about the pantone color that we haven't used on a spreadsheet or, sorry, on a PowerPoint presentation. So, yes, so you've got the entrepreneurial spirit from, from your dad. But yeah, the innovation stuff that you've been doing. So like you said, you've got the zero waste, you've got the alcohol free vanilla. Is that driven by you or where does that come from and how do you build that into a.

Company? Well.

Right from the beginning, you know, we're like, we just didn't want to be another vanilla company.

And so, you know, right at the beginning we did vanilla paste which there wasn't very many vanilla paste around and we, and we did it in a really innovative way. Other pastes were like 50 sugar in our paste and it was the first ingredient. Our paste is 5% sugar. It's the last ingredient.

My. I have to give a lot of credit to my husband who is, you know, as I mentioned before, got a technology background so he's really sort of of become the R and D arm of the business. But our, our innovation and really is driven by, you know, marketing and looking what's in market and other categories outside of vanilla. Vanilla is such a tiny little category in the supermarket.

So often it's really challenging to get ranging and shelf space.

So we look into other categories and see what's happening there. Look at packaging. I think our branding and packaging really stands out on shelf. I'm incredibly proud of that. I'm very fortunate to have a team of people around me that in our sort of management team, in our management team that have joined the business over the years that have brought a lot of those skills and knowledge and energy and momentum into the business and that you know, that from a business perspective that's you know, a key learning is, you know, you can't do it all on your own. And yeah, it's really incredibly important to have a team of people around you that are all working for the same thing. So yeah, we, like I said, we don't want to be just another boring brown vanilla company. So that's, I think, yeah, yeah.

You'Re clearly anything but that. So have you, have you found, you know, one of the benefits of B Corp according to the, the data is, you know, better staff attraction and retention. Have you found that people have wanted. I mean, but again I think it's hard for you to maybe separate because you've been been built as a B corp since day one. But have you found, you know, people attracted to coming to work for the company because of the good. That's.

That'S. Yeah, I think when we, when, you know, when we, we've grown, we grew the team quite a lot over those covered years because everybody was home baking.

And, and interviews and things, you know, you say, you know, why do you want to come and work for hey La Vanilla? And every time it's because of the business, what you stand for, who you are, your purpose, your story.

Those. Yeah, those sorts of things. So. And yeah we have a number of our team are really you know, the 10 plus years. So they've, they've been on the journey with us. They're part of the. Hey Lala.

Family. Nice. Yeah, it's.

You know, the data is overwhelming. You know, people want, people want and, and need purpose in their life. And I love what you said earlier on, you know, purpose finds you. I think there's an element of that. But clearly what you, what you did and maybe what other people aren't so good at doing, and possibly this is just due to not being ready or that lack of self awareness or limited consciousness is to actually see that that is purpose calling you.

There's a really cool. I did a purpose workshop for a group the other night, so it's kind of really fresh in my memory. But the word vocation, you know, you could argue that you have a vocation. You know, this is your, this is your, this is your thing. Well, vocation comes from the Latin word vocali, which means calling. And so, you know, you were called to come and do this. And there's a really. Carl Jung sort of psych early psychotherapist. He had a really great phrase, you know, curiosity is the potential future, the potential best future version of yourself calling yourself towards itself. So that the fact that this kind of opportunity passed in front of your eyes and you were like, I think this could be the thing.

It's.

I. It's like that movie Sliding Doors. You know, it's like there's all these opportunities that, you know, your potential best future version of you is offering you and it's actually recognizing it and having the courage and the desire and, and the, the foresight to go this. Actually. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm give it a go. So I think that that innovation, that risk taking is clearly been part of what you've done and it's clearly taken into some pretty cool places. So go you very unaccounted. I don't see how you lasted so long as an.

Accountant. I know. Clearly it was a.

Struggle.

So have you thought about taking, you know, past Tonga or do you think you are commit. Like would you go to Samoa or Rarotonga or Niue or Papua New guinea or like there's other, you know, tropical or, you know, communities that could maybe do with similar inspiration, economic development opportunity? Or do you just think you're so committed to Tonga with the, with the backstory and obviously the name or could there be possibly like a splinter company or. Yeah. Any, any thoughts around that.

Or. You know, it's definitely been in our, in our thoughts Tonga will always remain like our heart and our home and our, you know, foundation, our heritage. But for those other countries, it's really about finding partners.

So we do get, you know, approaches often then when people realize actually vanilla is a really long term investment, it's very high risk, subject to, you know, huge climatic fluctuations and things. And then you kind of spend some time with them and then you never hear from them again.

So we're fortunate that we do have supply chain partners and in both Uganda and Madagascar that we have visited and we know, you know, their supply chain and what they stand for, similar values, similar founding story. So we can balance and de risk our supply chain from Tonga when we need to with those supply chain partners. So.

Yeah, it'd be great to take it.

Extend it to a South Pacific vanilla. But it really relies, you know, we're a small team and we can only be in so many places. So if somebody comes to us and that, you know, they've got the same sort of values and mindset to set it up somewhere, you know, and have the connections and everything, then Absolutely. Because I think a lot of people probably looking from the outside think, oh that's, that looks great. Oh, we'll grow some vanilla and we'll sell it, we'll, we'll do a hey lala from somewhere else. But they don't really realize, you know, what goes into it, right? From the growing to the manufacturing to the quality to the, you know, production to the marketing, the sales, the distribution, the food safety and quality. You know, it's just like it's a, yeah, it's a big.

Thing. But I mean also just that depth of connection that your dad had that you've got, got, you know, it again, it's, it's just, to me, it's testament of proof of the, the authenticity behind what you're doing. Because like you say, plenty of other Westerners might think, oh yeah, we can go, you know, we can go and do that, but it ain't so easy. But, and I think that's, it's a phrase that I use so often. You know, if doing good was easy, they'd all be doing it. But it's not easy like to, to set up what you've set up. It's not for the faint hearted, which is why there's not many, you know, companies. We're still at 0.01% of the global business population is a certified B corp. That's why, that's why there's not 50 other South Pacific vanilla companies copying what you're doing because it's.

Hard.

There's an Australian did come and try and set up in Tonga about 10 years ago, but yeah, they lasted a few years and then, yeah, I.

Think, I think again, it's just again with this purpose workshop in my head, you know, put that sense of purpose and connection and the meaning to what you're doing gives increased motivation and resilience and the depth of connection that you and your family clearly have to the, to the purpose and the meaning and the contribution that you're making it. It sees you through the tough times. Whereas if you're fly by night Johnny, who's hey, I think this is a quick buck. As soon as it gets tough, you're.

I'm going to try the next thing I've got with the.

Next. There's been plenty of times where it's like, what are you doing again?

And then people that we meet in Tonga, you know, like in government or in the royal family, they're just like, oh, thank you so much for sticking with it and sticking through the tough times. Like, yeah, they're like, I don't think there's been any, any business that's stuck in Tonga for over 20.

Years. Well, so the big question then is do you support the All Blacks or Tonga when it comes to. To rugby or other sport? Well, I'm not allowed to say.

Both. Typically, like in the World Cup.

I was like, yeah, dollar each.

Way.

But obviously the, the All Blacks are at a different level. So.

Yeah.

So, yeah, looking into the future, I guess as we wrap up, what do you think the future looks like for B Corp as a.

Movement?

Well, I would hope that it becomes larger and more vibrant and has more visibility around the globe and becomes like a real movement for doing good as we, you know, there's so many challenges out there.

And yeah, that B Corp can play a real, real role. That, that whole movement and the community just gets.

Stronger.

It's. It's definitely going that way, that's for sure. No small thanks to awesome companies like yours getting onto the movement and what's, what's the future hold for. Hey, Lala. Any. Any. You're obviously winning. You're tripping over awards and innovation. So what's the, what's the next. I feel maybe actually we should dig in a little bit. The zero waste things, I think people will be interested in that. So the zero waste production, how did you get into.

That.

Again? It was a Massey project when we were looking at our. I think we've done about 10 projects with Massey University in the food technology area. One of the projects was around our extraction process, which again is part of our B corp. And we didn't even realize we were doing it. So it's cold extraction as opposed to big industrial vanilla companies, they do heat extraction. So it's really low energy.

So we were doing a project on looking at our extraction process, making sure that we were extracting every possible flavor compound that we could out of the vanilla. And we also discovered during that time when we were looking at all the different compounds, that there was a bioactive compound for skin care, anti aging. So then we went and did another project and looked into that. That took about eight years. And so the, the patented process is obviously the extraction of vanilla for vanilla extract, the extraction of seeds, and then we do a powder and then we also have a bioactive for skincare. So without, you know, sharing too many details, the total package of that means that we have zero waste. Whereas most big industrial vanilla companies, they're extracting vanilla and then they're left with, you know, this mush after the end of the extraction process, which is a waste product. So we're now actually in the position where we can buy waste product from other vanilla companies and use that in our process. So, yeah, that's doing some good for the planet.

Yeah, so we're incredibly proud of that.

Process. That's super cool. Yeah, it just felt, again, it just felt like you've really got, got everything pretty well sorted across the key areas of your business. But it's great to know that even though it's doing really well, you want to do, do even more good. And I think that's again, part of the community, part of the movement, part of the assessment tool is, you know, that.

The first boss that I had when I moved to New Zealand, John Meek, I think I've given him a shout out. This might be the second time I've given him a shout out. He had a great phrase. He said, he said, you need to have a constructive discontent. You just need to be discontent with the status quo, but constructively attack it. So don't, you know, why, you know, not be sort of negative? Well, this is terrible. I can't work this. Okay, this could be better. Why is it not better and how can we do it better? And that's, that's a real mindset that I think I've kind of just always had. But he was the one who kind of gave me that lightning rod to go, this, this is actually what it, what it is. And this is how you can approach it and I think, yeah, when, when you apply that with an impact lens. Yeah, you're a pretty unstoppable.

Force. Just, just on the bioactive, shout out to Trilogy Cosmetics. So they're in New Zealand based skin care. So we, yeah, we supply them the Bioactive. So there's a number of products I've reached recently and that says on front of pack with Vanille Active too, which is the bioactive.

Ingredient. Great to see. See collabs and hopefully. Have you got any collabs going with any, any B corps currently in terms.

Of.

Oh, there's a few that we're talking to in the States.

Oh, we've done, you know, some like marketing collabs in terms of, you know, like Taylor Pass. Honey, I think.

I should have checked that one with our marketing team.

But. That's right, that was a last minute throwing question by me. So we'll let you off, but yeah, I, I will. I've just realized actually. So I went to uni with a guy, Tom James. I don't think he's listening. He used to work for Jamie Oliver in one of his restaurants. So I will reach out to him and see if we can make that connection. Yeah, but if Tom Tom can't, I'm sure the Internet will. There's got to be someone listening to this who knows someone who knows someone. You know, it's the sixth. I mean, in New Zealand we call it the two degrees of separation. So there has to be someone in New Zealand who knows Jamie Oliver or someone in his, in his team well enough to make the intro if Tom can't. So yeah, fingers crossed for that.

Yeah, just I'm reinvigorated through doing this podcast this last few months because we've just had some really. Not that I'm saying the people who we interviewed earlier on in the year weren't so cool, but we just had some, some really, really awesome companies and just hearing the, the real backstory because, you know, we get a little bit of time when we, when we work with you to understand, you know, kind of what you do, but it's hard to get the full story when, you know, we're trying to help you smash out your B corp as quickly as possible. You're busy and all the rest of it. So yeah, thanks so much for making the time. Hopefully, you know, someone listens to this and they want to buy some of your vanilla or have a collab or something or hopefully they've been inspired to go, hey, actually, you know, maybe we've got a product that we could be sourcing from, you know, someone like Tonga or South Pacific and we could do it in a really cool way like you have. So, yeah, thank you for everything that, that you're doing. Keep up your amazing work. It's.

Inspirational. Thank you. Yeah, and it's been great chatting and. And likewise a bit of re Energizing. Yeah. When you share your story with other.

People. Excellent. Cool. All right, we'll leave you to.

It. Thanks.

Tim. See ya.

Hey, it's Tim here that Be Caught bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.