#87 The future looks Brightly with Mike Carroll

Hey, Kia ora Shamay. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Beat Better podcast. Thank you as always to our regular listeners. Um, there's a few of you I keep meeting you, which is nice. Keep doing it. Appreciate it. If you haven't given us a review, you know how it works. Come on, please. Five stars. Surely it's got to be worth that. Other than that, we'll rip into it. With me today, I have got Mike from Brightly. Kia ora. G', day, Mike. How's it going?

It's going good. Kia ora, Tim.

So tell us, who are you? What do you do?

Yeah, so Mike Carroll. I'm the founder and principal consultant with Brightly. We're a purpose lead technology company based up in Tamuku Mada.

Very cool. And I'm trying to remember, I think the first time we met was at a B Corp event in Auckland. It was like, I think Ian Harvey from Collective Intelligence ran that road show and I remember meeting you in that room and I'm trying to remember when. When was that? That must have been like 2018 maybe.

Yeah, pretty early on. Yeah. A while back. Yeah, while back.

You just started the bit. I think you were. You'd either just started or you were like, yeah, we're going to give this a go round about then, weren't you?

Yeah, yeah, that's the very beginning.

Nice. So you do IT tech stuff. When people say that, I've got a mate of mine who's in data warehousing. I'm like, great, so can you help me fix my computer? No, I don't. I don't do that. I t and tech. Yeah, it's quite easy to offend people in your industry because it's like, no, no, no, we don't do that. So what sort of things are you helping people with on the day to day? So we get a bit more of a understanding.

Yeah, awesome question. So the way that we describe it, we help people with their technology strategy, their governance, the cyber security and then projects as well as managed operations. So essentially we're an IT managed service provider. So work with companies where in some cases they don't have any internal IT resources at all. So we're their entire IT department. In other cases we're just kind of providing additional resource or expertise around internal teams and, and in some cases that looks like with some organizations we might have a virtual CIO type role where we're providing that kind of real strategic leadership and guidance and in other cases might be right down to just kind of boots on the Ground some to help with the day to day IT support and everything in between.

Someone that helps to clarify like what we don't do. So we're not a team of developers or web designers, we don't do a lot of coding. So really about helping people get the most out of the technology platforms and understand and how they can improve their day to day lives.

Nice. And what's the sort of typical organization that you're helping then as a tech for good? Yeah. Who do you hang out with mainly?

Yeah, we work with an awesome range of companies across both for purpose and commercial sector. So around 20 to 25% of our customers are not for profit or social enterprises. So work with the likes of Heart foundation, sustainable coastlines, gun to table, awesome organizations doing really great work out there. And then on the commercial side it's everything from SaaS companies, companies scaling up tech through to construction firms, professional services firms, dev companies. Yeah, whole, whole range of other industries and I think what really sets them apart for the most part for our customers is that they tend to really care about their employees experience of technology that the customer service and the approach that's taken to it. And so although they might not all be in that for purpose sector, they often share the values or share a common approach into how we, how we do things.

Nice. So can you tell me why Microsoft Teams is so shit.

And is it inbuilt to not work with Macs? Because I run on a Mac every time someone's like oh can we do the meeting on teams? I'm like yeah, I'd love to.

Yeah, let's give it a go.

And then I'm 10 minutes late because it can't log in and I've downloaded the teams app on my desktop. I've just given up trying to make that work. So I now just have to log in on my browser every time. I'm just like, you know Bill, you've got a lot of cash. Although I was talking to someone yesterday, they said maybe it's because I think apparently Microsoft has just been asked to pay a whole bunch of tax by the IRS in the us.

They've still.

Got plenty in the kitty. It's not going to put a dent in that.

Could someone fix team? And then the other one I was on, we've got like a LinkedIn Pro account and we're just about to do some outbound sales activity. So watch this space. If you think you might should be a B corp, you probably could get an email from me pretty soon. So I was trying to Download some stuff and LinkedIn sales navigator, you can add 25 contacts at a time to a list. And so I got on the chat support. Hey, you know you're number one in the queue. Okay, great, you're number zero in the queue. We've closed the support for today. Okay. So I sent them the email and like two days later. Oh yeah, no, sorry, you can, you can only transfer 25 at a time. It's like I just emailed back and said it's 2024 and I pay you money for this. Anyway, rant over on technology. This is why I'm convinced that AI is not going to take over the world. Not yet. I keep, I like to, I put my little Google Nest speaker next to me. I give it a little pat and stroke it and tell it I love it every day just in case it becomes my overlord.

Yeah, keep on the right side of them for sure.

Definitely keep on the right side. But I'm still firmly convinced that AI will take over because I think it hasn't. Elon just put the first neuralink in someone. So any second now Terminators are going to start come wading through. But I'm convinced that the AI will take over all our jobs and then after a day it will go, actually your jobs are all shit. You, you want to do this anymore? We're going to the beach and drinking some beers and hanging out. So I think it's going to go full circle pretty quick.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how that all unfolds for sure.

So, so what's, what's typically like the biggest tech challenge or the biggest value add that? Because I think it's.

I guess, I don't know, tech for a lot of people. I mean, you know, there's probably a ton of things that I could do better with my tech that would increase my efficiency. But I think quite often, particularly Kiwis are a bit like, oh, spending money on something to maybe improve it. Not convinced. So yeah, what's typically the thing that you can do that will help, particularly the purpose driven ones get a big return or let them take time off having to think about bloody passwords or updating software or whatever it is. What's typically the big thing that you'd recommend people look into?

Yeah, a lot of it's a combination of those things. So the organizations we work with, they know what their purpose is, they know what they do well. And so often it's about unlocking how technology can help them do that. So it's not trying to change what they're doing, but it's just working out. You know, is there things we can automate? Are there ways that we can help with that? There's a big element just around education where people are often put off by technology and it's seen as, you know, teams as just painful or zoom never understands me. And so a lot of it's around just that, education and giving people the confidence to give things a go and sort of work through it as well as really helping provide clarity. Large organizations, it's often about sort of, there's so many choices out there. Where do they start, which technologies do they invest in, how do they get the most out of those? And then we've got a few where the, yeah, like you say, just removing some of that day to day pain and ensuring that they've got the, the right kind of whether processes in place where it's helping onboard and off board team members and just getting all of those things in so that teams are not feeling frustrated by the technology that they, you know, when they join a new team or a new organization they have a great experience and throughout that kind of life cycle that technology is something that they feel comforted, you know, comfortable using, supported when they're using it and able to get the most out of it. Really.

Yeah. I remember when I quit the medical device world and I joined a firm of sort of surveyors and engineers and I was thinking, oh wow, this is going to be great, you know, like big company. Because I was mainly a standalone rep in New Zealand with the nearest head office was in Sydney or there was a small team in New Zealand. So like IT support was remote in Sydney and we'd always get sent the worst laptops and you know, what have you. So I was like, well it's my first time like working in a big office with like an IT support team. It's gonna be great. And I just remember yeah, day one.

They gave me a laptop but it didn't work. Like there was something wrong with it. It couldn't connect to the Internet or something and they didn't have any phones so I was given literally like a 1992 Motorola flip phone. I'm like, this is day one, you know, the confession.

But it's a kind of like, you know, this is day one, you know, and I'm, I'm a technically a senior leader in this organization and we, we offer project management as a service and this is my experience. They didn't have business cards for me. It was like the Whole thing was like, when. I mean, even worse, I turned up and I was like, hi, I'm Tim. I'm the new general manager for South Island. And they're like, sorry, yeah. And I'm like, well, today's my first day. I. I don't know anything. There's, like, no one there to greet me. There'd be nothing planned for the. Yeah. So that. The onboarding experience for employees, like, yeah, just. Just hiring them isn't. Isn't the. The starting point or isn't the end point? Rather, it's like, yeah, you need to make that seamless. What. What's the. Is if there was one, you know, absolute killer app or piece of tech that is just the mutts nuts, is there one that you're like, hands down, like, this is the one thing that everyone should go and buy today as a. As a cool tool or. Or time saver?

That's probably a slightly boring answer, but probably the kind of key recommendation for people is actually a password management tool. And so I think security is top of mind for a lot of people these days. There's a massive number of scams and people out there trying to gain access to your accounts and getting some good password management in place, although it's not the most exciting part of technology, is actually a massive help. And the tool we use most often is one password, but there's other tools out there like Dashlane and that sort of thing. And I think the practice around people using good passwords, using unique passwords for different systems, are made massively easier by having a good password tool in place. And that frustration around logging into everything, if you're using lots of different systems and they're not integrated, it just makes that whole process a whole load easier. So, yeah, that's probably where I would start. Even though it's not. It's not the most super exciting one out there. There's a lot of awesome automation tools and obviously the AI stuff's coming on real fast and doing some really cool stuff. But I often like to start with get your house in order before you start adding the fancy stuff around the edges.

That is definitely an area of weakness for me now that my team is increasing. I'm like, yeah, we just. We share the passwords.

Sorry.

Change that today. Lesson learned. By the time this gets out to air, they will be chance. No, you won't be able to hack me unless someone's already hacked my Zoom account and is. Yeah, who knows? No, that's. That's a good tip. Yeah. I mean, it's in. Occasionally I get the random cold email of, you know, you and your team need to invest in Cyprus Cruise. I'm like, mate, it's me in a Google platform. Yeah, it's like, I don't have much that people can steal, but I mean, yeah, we do. We probably should take it a bit more seriously. So, yeah, talking of AI though, what, what's, what's your take on that? Like we, we've had a go with chat GPT. We've used it to maybe go like, you know, here's one, here's one social post. Can you credit five different versions in different styles to see what that does? Beyond that though, I haven't really had the time to dig in and go, well, how does AI change my life? But yes, is it making any big inroads for you or. I mean, obviously your industry is probably more comfortable and ahead of the game in terms of what it can do and how it works, I hope.

Yeah, definitely. I think in some cases we're also probably more skeptical. We've been through the hype cycle of different technologies quite a lot and obviously AI is right at the peak right now. It is. We are seeing some organizations make some great use of it. I think one of the things we're seeing is the generative AI, you know, chat, GPT, etc. Is great like, so people will have a, have a bit of a play with it, they'll get some ideas and there's certain tasks that it's really useful for in terms of if you just, you know, you're kicking something new off, say you need to create a new agenda for a new series of meetings or that kind of thing is great, but it's quite limited, especially when people are having to break out of the day to day workflow, go off to a different tool, do something, come back and so the next wave where you'll see the likes of Microsoft 365 copilot is an AI tool built into customers 365 environment and it's actually able to pull the data from within your system so that what it's generating has a whole load more context and more information. And rather than just kind of writing emails for you, kind of summarizing open actions from a whole bunch of different things, or helping pull out meaningful data out of different reports and so on. So I think the shift from yes, generating some content or helping with ideas through to actually starting to drive more insights and kind of not just make people more efficient, but help them sort of gain new information and the whole predictive AI side of things where if you're leveraging a CRM system or a database that you're actually able to drive more insights out of those as well, is I think people sort of will start to see some massive things. A couple other things with AI. One is that most people are using it now without necessarily realizing it. In terms of the way that like you mentioned with the Google Nest and Siri and like AI is just built into a whole bunch of platforms already. So there's a large amount of that that's already going on and will continue. And the, the kind of flip side I suppose is just being aware of the governance and the security and privacy risks that come along with it as well. So just making sure your teams are kind of educated and trained up into where the data is going. If they enter it into particularly third party chat platform, for example, that, yeah, there's that awareness around what's happening with that information.

Yeah, you're right because everywhere seemingly has got an AI thing now. Like there's just platforms left, right and center where it's like, okay, there's an AI, there's an AI. Yeah, I guess all those chat bots and helper bots and things. But even still some of them are just bloody useless.

Yeah, there's definitely the old adage of shit and shit out still applies.

100%. 100%. So yeah, are you, what is your take, you know, AI apocalypse? Are we going to become slaves to robots one day? Are you, are you down that line or do you think it's, it's going to be.

I tend to be, yeah, I'm more of the eternal optimist. But you know, I think when you look at who's in control of some of these platforms that that is, you know, valid cause for concern. Not necessarily in the full Terminator style apocalypse, but more if you look at the way, for example that generative AI is today.

The Taylor Swift example, where it's very quickly used in a really awful way and the propensity for people to.

Whether it's intentionally or not, maximize short term profit without necessarily thinking through the consequences. So I have I suppose, more concern around what people will do with it than what the AI, you know, getting to that singularity point where the AI is in control of its own destiny and I think ensuring that we're sort of not carried away so much by the hype cycle of it, that we're not putting in place the training and education and governance around it, whether it's at an international level, or right down to, you know, individual companies and teams, but really understanding how we're driving value and benefiting from it versus, you know, consolidating wealth or driving more inequity through the people that are able to leverage these tools versus the people that aren't.

Because, yeah, it's. I mean, I think there's two parts to that for me. One, one is, is are we just sort of shadow projecting our darkest desires and fears that AI will take over and kill us? Does that say more about us and how we, you know, see the world? But then in terms of what you're talking about, regulation, you kind of go, great, so we've got either Sleepy Joe or Trump, Rishi Sunak, Stroke, Boris and Chris Luxon locally as our guardians of what AI can or can't do. He sort of go, well, you know, is, is the modern world equipped? You know, I mean, you know, I've got a chat free Chat GPT account. That's pretty much my level of understanding of AI. I would imagine most people in the governance or governments of most countries probably can't spell chatgpt, let alone fully understand what it does. So how do you think we. Yeah, how do we manage this thing? Or is there, you know, and I think the democratization of it. I mean, yes, Chat GPT is free and everyone can use it, but one. One organization is getting access to all this data, presumably. And there's a, there's a, there's another, like on the Elon side of things, there's a. I think there's a Russian billionaire who's trying to create like the first cyborg. And it's like, you know, it's one guy with one vision with the money dictating and deciding how that goes. And if he, presumably, if he wants to create a cyborg army, he can go and do that because it's private money. And if he wants to build that, he can go build it. So, yeah, how do we keep on top of that or can we keep on top of that?

Yeah, I think again, it comes down to what the existing power structures are and that yet, like you say, it doesn't inspire confidence with who we're seeing in there right now. But also the, the kind of, the education and understanding around what is happening out there. What are the tools, you know, how do we protect. I think there's a. Really. With the rise of deep fakes, so where you can essentially create video and audio of, of any person, recreate what they're saying. So where you have politicians Potentially misrepresented or journalists or. I think there's a, a real need for us to be well protected in terms of the disinformation that comes with that. And I think where you see the undermining of traditional media and journalism and education in general, we're actually not in a great place. And so I think that's how you kind of shore up some of those defenses is by educating people and ensuring that we have the tools to understand.

Who ultimately is controlling that information, where it's coming from, what's, what's, you know, true or verifiable versus not. And that's often, you know, one of the traps that people fall into a bit with the current.

Chatbots and generative AI is that they'll, they'll give you really valid content back, but their job is not to return factual information. Their job is to return good, you know, well sounding information or interesting content, not necessarily true content. And so ensuring that people sort of understand their role in it is, is to fact check and validate and ensure that, you know, they're actually paying attention to what is coming through. We can't be passive about that.

Yeah, it's pretty scary, isn't it? I think the word trust or truth is a word for the moment. Because, I mean, I remember, you know, at school studying history and you know, being shown the picture. It was either Lenin or Stalin and there was one picture that had Trotsky in it and one picture that didn't have Trotsky in it. And it's like, you know, the ability to doctor a photo in the 40s and 50s to spread false news. We could do that. And so like you say now with deep fakes, he's like, how do you even know that what you're. Yeah. And I think it's, it's really, it's gonna be really interesting, I think, particularly for the kids. You know, I think of my daughter, you know, she's just in a digital world, you know, that's.

Yeah.

Whereas you sort of wonder is, is the Encyclopedia Britannica gonna have a comeback? It's like, no, this was written 20 years ago. So we know that this is like, this is the truth. It's like no one's got the. And we need to get two copies of the encyclopedia to check both because it's unlikely that someone's gone around the world and deep faked every copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica. I think it's time to be alive.

It is. And I think for like the organizations that we work with.

There'S that, that importance around brand and trust is, is so critical and as we sort of go through this, this next wave becomes even more important in terms of, like you say, if there's a, if there is a deep fake out there, how do people get to the source of truth? And for, you know, whether it's brands or individuals, that's increasingly going to be important is how do I, in terms of my online presence or information that's out there about us as a company, you know, how do we ensure that the, the correct version is out there or that there's a place that people can come to. With, with that trust and understanding?

Yeah, I guess. Is that going to be, you know, is that going to be the billion dollar industry? The people who, you know, because it's almost like this is the wild west and there's people trying to sell you all sorts of gold panning equipment that may or may not actually help you find the gold. And it's kind of almost, it almost feels like the person who comes behind that and goes, no, that fake, fake, fake, fake, fake, fake truth, fake truth. That's going to be the one that.

I certainly think, yeah, there's an opportunity there and, and again, people will try and commercialize it and. Yes. So yeah, finding that balance would be.

Would you like to. Yeah. Would you like to read the general news on Instagram or would you like to read the news filtered by truth and untruth? Just hit me with all of it. Yeah. I don't care.

Well, I mean, you get that a lot. Even today with the kind of, you know, you'll be scrolling through one of our, you know, local online newspapers and then all the clickbait at the bottom then. Yeah, yeah, most of that's not.

Yeah. Not. Yeah. Worth clicking.

Yeah.

Man. Yeah, it's. It's gonna be an interesting time. Interesting time, I think and I feel perhaps under equipped to fully understand it also. Mike, don't let us down, please. I feel like it's all pressure.

Yeah.

How did you get into the world of tech? Was, was young Mike, you know, pulling apart computers as a kid or calculators and like destined to be computers or. Yeah. How did you get involved?

Yeah, it definitely wasn't the plan. Originally I studied geography and environmental science. I was interested in going out and saving the world, but then I graduated and couldn't get a job saving the world. So through, I guess, work and uni and that sort of thing, had definitely been using computers and gained a fair amount of knowledge through that process. And Was able to get just an entry level position with an IT company that was then stepping stone to the next and continue to learn on the job. So yeah, I'm going to say 25 odd years later, it's making me feel old, but yeah, it's been a good journey.

Yeah, nice. And so working for small medium companies or large companies just like through the journey, just doing typical similar stuff to what you're offering now or what was it like?

Yeah, real max. I started off working for IT companies that were then supporting local government and commercial companies and then I moved to working for a media company within their IT team and then running their New Zealand IT operation and so spent, yeah, good kind of eight, nine years running it, you know, internal IT teams and dev teams within, within that environment. And that was really when throughout that sort of the 20 year kind of corporate IT career had tried to bring, I guess my values through. So I'd be on the green team, I'd be sort of, you know, doing what I could to influence where I could. But it always felt a bit out of balance. And so that opportunity to kind of step out and start my own thing was yeah, really that ultimate chance to bring those two things together.

So what was the, the catalyst to go and start your own thing? Because it's not, you know, it's not a necessarily a easy decision to make. This, the inherent risk of these guys. I do the same work. Today these people pay me, tomorrow I go out and I try and find some people who can pay me and that may or may not happen. So yeah, what was the story behind that?

Yeah, I think the company I've been working for had decided to do some kind of large scale IT outsourcing. And that meant that I guess our ability in terms of how we manage the local team changed quite a lot. And the kind of the room for growth and the opportunity in terms of how we did that wasn't really there. And so I took that, took that chance to go out and look for something new. And when I first started doing that I did, you know, my original intention was to go out and find another IT leadership position. But as I went out there, partly timing like there just wasn't the right type of jobs out there at the time. But also when I was looking at those opportunities, the company I've been working for had an amazing culture, really good team, there were lots of really fantastic things about it. And so I didn't feel like I was really transitioning to something that was going to be a step up in Terms of not so much career but the purpose and the experience and kind of the working life. And so I was like, well, do I really want to shift or do I want to actually change and, and really step things up? And so yeah, I thought why not try and make a, make a go of it myself? Crazy idea.

Yeah, yeah. To anyone listening, don't do it.

Michael and I are Both actually only 25. We just look like 40s.

Yeah.

So what you just, was it just you, you just started your like incorporated company and just like pretty much and say, yeah, give me a job.

I was like, you know, reach out to family and friends, who needs IT help and really, you know, started from the ground up. I was super lucky though, and I think it's probably the second year and I was able to reach out to Andy Walsh who was my sort of 2ic at the previous company and Solution Architect and somehow convince him to move up from Wanaka to Auckland and Jo join the mission. And so he's co founder in the business and we've been building it since then together, which has been fantastic.

You must be some sales guy. Hey, look, look, leave, leave paradise and Wanaka and come up and come and hang out with me where there's maybe some opportunities. But no guaranteed income.

Yeah, precisely. Yeah.

Either that or he's not a smart lad. But yeah, but no, that's super cool. And it was easy to get, you know, you, you're getting enough business. So yeah, I mean obviously you're still here.

It was a, it was a long journey. I think having a background as a technical person an IT leader. Things like sales were just a completely foreign concept to me so I had to learn some, some pretty hard lessons in there. I started out, I gained some customers, I went and solved all their problems and now it's like, ah.

Now what?

Yeah, now what are the problems?

Yeah, so yeah, there's definitely, definitely been a lot of, a lot of those kinds of learnings on the journey for sure. But it's been really rewarding as well.

Yeah, I mean I, I am fundamentally unemployable. Realistically, you know the, the idea of. So I have to be here at 8 o' clock every day regardless of what's happening in the world in my personal life. No, I'm not sure that's gonna work for me, to be honest. Yeah, just that sort of stuff. Yeah, I mean my dad was self employed so I think there, there was a, I guess a, an element of, you know, that as a reference point as well.

Yeah.

So yeah, but no, yeah, the idea of. Yeah, I don't think any as like I said anyone would hire me anyway, not, not full time. I think they can handle me in small doses for a couple of months and then, yeah, let's get rid of it.

So you sort of talked about, you know, sort of been values led, but you know, and you want to sort of, you know, have that impact on the world. But yeah. Is that something you've always had from day one and was that like when you started the business, was it like, okay, this is going to be a full purpose? Because what year, what, what year did you start the business?

Sorry, would have been late 2016.

Okay, yeah, so 2016. So I mean, yeah, back then there's still probably what like 4B Corps. So yeah. Was the intent to, to try to try and move into the sector of business for good or to begin with? Was it, look, let's just start a business and just get some money and pay the bills.

Yeah, no, it's 100 to go in for, for good. It was way too hard to do otherwise. I think definitely easy ways to earn a living. And so, yeah, right from the get go it was about, you know, how do we actually kind of get. Live, you know, every day with, with that purpose in mind and kind of see how we can scale that, that impact really. I suppose. And yeah, and that's what kind of led me down obviously the B Corp road in terms of.

Wanting to have a bit of a playbook or a framework for that having, you know, obviously I think a lot of people know the story of Patagonia and the whole ethos behind that and similar organizations and having that inspiration of, you know, that it's possible and not just possible, but commercially successful as well. And so that, that was really the idea that you could be true to your values, be doing awesome work and be commercially successful and then find ways to drive the positive impact. And I think for me there's a lot messed up in the world and we're actually pretty stuffed if we don't change how we're doing things. So I'm super, super motivated from the point of view of.

I don't want to kind of get to a stage later in life where I'm like, or say to my kids, you know, sorry team, we fucked it up and we did nothing about it. That's not, you know, the, the sort of legacy that I want to leave. And I don't think, you know, most of the people in our space are really, we're not accepting the Status quo. We need to drive things. And I, the, the more we do that as individuals and businesses and as people engage in our democracy, the more kind of progress we'll see.

Nice.

Cool story.

And so when, when did B Corp pop up on the radar? Was that 2016? You founded it, I met you 2018. Ish. I think. I'm pretty sure it was 2018.

Yeah, we started working on it almost like I was aware of it pretty much straight away. And in fact, even I think within the first year of business we started to look at it. And so there are only two of us. When we kicked off the process, I think by the time we saw that certified, there were four of us in the team. But yeah, it was right. And I think the thing for me was it's great if you walk around going, yeah, we're for purpose and we want to have an impact. But I wanted to be able to actually be able to back that up, be able to have that kind of sense checked or validated in terms of. It's not just warm and fuzzies, it's actually meaningful things that we're doing. And so the B Corp kind of having such a holistic framework and an internationally recognized one gave me the confidence. It's like, yep, we can actually stand behind this. We're not just waffling on about something warm and fuzzy, we're actually doing something about it.

Yeah, 100 agree. Like we always talk about how the framework gives you that operational. It's almost like the yin and the yang. It's like it's got the operational, the detail, the, the rational, the measurement, the scientific almost of this is how we do it. But you kind of need that warm and fuzzy purpose, more esoteric, humane side of it. And you put the two together, you've got something really cool. But if you have just one, either on their own is not enough because if you, like I say, you've got fluffiness and we don't really know if we're doing anything or you're doing things, but possibly not with a lens of purpose on it. So, yeah, sort of putting the two together. Do you remember specifically where you heard of B Corp back in the day? Because back then, I mean.

Yeah, I'm not just, just curious because I mean, there was, yeah.

So much going on for marketing for B Corp, beyond the community right now, but back.

Then, man, yeah, it was, it was literally around the likes of Patagonia and those other kind of international organizations that were, that were going through it. Yeah. And I think the like looking at ways to think. Some of the things that I love about B Corp is that whole concept behind interdependence and working together. And I think for me, you know, we're a tiny company in a tiny country down the bottom of the earth. To have that kind of meaningful impact, you can't ever do it on your own. So finding I guess a movement or a framework that has the, like you say it's got the sense and the science and the methodology behind it, but it's also got a way to influence wider spread change and that understanding around how we can kind of scale that and actually drive systems change rather than just kind of tinkering around the edges with things. That was a big, big part of kind of committing to that, to that B Corp process. I think the other thing was it was just massively useful as a small company to have that framework, especially around governance and how you look after your team. And that sort of stuff was just an awesome playbook when you're setting up a new company. It put us way ahead of where we would have been otherwise in terms of a lot of that stuff.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

It's a great starting point if you're wanting to get all the. Because a lot of people go, oh, B Corp, wow. It's like this. Oh, it's like it's unattainable. You know, there's so few of them. It's like. Because people don't think they can do it, but actually if you just sit down and go through it. Yeah. If you've got the mindset and the intent that you want to be a better business, you will make the changes that you need to make. And most of them aren't going to be structural changes to the business, they're just going to be implement. And like I say, particularly for scale up businesses, we don't, we don't have any policies. Okay, well this is a framework that will say, well here are some ideas for some policies and this is what it needs to include. Great. Okay. Yeah, too easy. Yeah, no, that's cool. And so you have, you've done two certifications. You certified initially. In what year did you first certify? 20.

2020. I think I remember the certification, the actual certification coming through in the first lockdown in Auckland. It was a nice highlight in the middle of a rather, rather grim time. So that one stands out.

Yeah, nice. And then so you recertified 2023. So just, just gone.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Nice.

Yeah, it was, I think the process for us like the Original certification was, you know, it was an awesome process for a tiny team, relatively immature company, and still working through, you know, a lot around. We understood our, our approach to impact and what our model was. We didn't necessarily have all the things in place to measure and track and communicate that. And so in the intervening years, we've certified as a toy to climate positive organization, which means putting a whole lot more robust process and measurement around our climate impact. And that, as well as the other work we've been doing, translated to a really increased B Corp score. And it's not about the points, which is really true, but it is about that continuous improvement and continuing to hold ourselves to a high standard. And so being able to see that and especially for our team as well, to have that recognition of, you know, there's a lot of hard work that goes into the, the management and the tracking and the reporting and being able to see at the end of the day that that's recognized and that. That that pays off is, Is really awesome.

Nice. And yeah. What, what was sort of any other, any specific highlights of, of the. Either the first or the journey today? Like, was there, was there anything, I guess as a startup business, was there anything that we were, you know, surprised by or like, oh, we're kind of already thinking that way or. Yeah. Any sort of highlights or. Yeah. Unexpected things that have popped up on the journey?

I think there's certainly as a company based in Aotearoa, you're sort of starting from a really awesome place already in terms of. Because it's an international framework and, you know, the labor laws in places like the U.S. not fantastic. We're actually in a really, really good position already. So it was, I think there was a really good side to. We're already doing all the right things and, you know.

Able to do that. And like you say, a lot of it's just about documenting or, you know, ratifying the policy that you've already got and kind of that whole process was good. I think the. There's always heaps to learn. So that was an awesome part of it as well is like, oh, yeah, there's different ways to think about things or yeah, driving. Driving some of that stuff through.

But I think the. Yeah, probably just the way that you get benefit from putting those processes in place as we've grown as a company has been awesome. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, it's just a really cool framework.

Yeah.

To start building. It's like a scaffolding framework here. Start building your business around it and reap the benefits have you specifically found you've had any, any like when we're talking to people about potentially working with them on their big up journey, you know, the evidence, and the evidence data is there that you know, employee engagement, customer traction, better investor relationships even, even just if you're getting, you know, minor investment from the bank and better supply chain. So have you seen like, do you have people knocking on your door saying hey, I want to come and work for you? Have you, you know, do you feel you'll, you've had a better revenue or better income from, from having being a B Corp?

Yeah, 100%. And like you say, it's on both the, the supply side and the customer side and it's, and it's building as well. Like we've seen particularly in the last 18 months, a real shift in the momentum in terms of the, the number of organizations and because we're a business to business company ourselves, it's those commercial relationships that make all the difference. And I think, you know, the, again coming back to that principle of interdependence, it's the more that we work together, sharing values and working towards purpose, the more that momentum grows. And so whether it's banking with Kiwi bank and getting more favorable interest rates because we're a B Corp, whether it's working with and gaining new customers and so we work as both the customer and supplier with, with lots of other B corps now. And so we've got, you know, fantastic clients like DNA and good sense and, and other people in the, in the B corp world. That just means that you sort of, it's almost like you.

You kind of leap over this whole initial trust, am I going to be able to work with them? Thing. And you're like, you're kind of short circuiting all that and going, yep, you know, are there another B Corp? We know we're going to share values. We know that if we talk to them about something they're going to understand what we're about. We know that they're likely to be easier to work with because they're going to take a longer term view on things. They're going to value the customer experience, they're going to value what their people experience day to day. That makes just a massive difference in terms of how we work and how we grow. It's been hugely positive and that momentum is only building like it's, it's like I say, in the last 18 months it's come along massively and you can see how that continues to, to step up.

Yeah, Totally, totally agree. Just, I'm just doing, having it well, interviewing with someone just before this call and we're just talking about the growth in the movement over the last year. 18 months to three years. It's just, I mean it's still low numbers. I think we're at about 140, give or take, B Corps in New Zealand and still just under 8,000 globally. So we're still, I say this pretty much every episode. We're still under 0.01% of the global business community as a vehicle. But then you look at some of the names on the list here and globally and you go this is a thing like there are some names that people know.

Whereas yeah, like eight years ago it was like who? I mean, I've never heard of any of these companies. It'd be interesting to sort of see which B Corp has had the most influence. So like, you know you mentioned Patagonia. Patagonia has got to be right up there with a brand that most people around the world will have heard the name, you know, in a developed world. Yeah. Be interesting to know which which brand has had the most influence of growing the movement over time. I'd say Patagonia must be right up there. Ben and Jerry's, possibly. Although in this region probably not so much because they don't have the B Corp stuff on the brand over this side of the world because of licensing regulations, blah blah, blah.

Probably that, that grow good crowd I reckon, mate.

We tried. We've been trying for eight years for the, for the first, I don't know, five. It felt very much like just I'd get more. I'm just banging my head against the wall. But I think, yeah, it's like the old Malcolm Gladwell, isn't it? The flywheel effect. Just keep another drop of water, another drop of water.

100%.

Yeah. And so.

What does being a B corp mean to you now then as a two time B Corp as well?

Yeah, I think it is all about that collaboration. I think the. I remember listening to a talk a wee while back and it described when you're an early adopter, particularly in the for purpose or sustainability space, you've got a lot of headwinds against you. You have to do more work for potentially less money to kind of hold your ground, stay true to your values, report on what you're doing, audit what you're doing. You know, like there's a lot where we, we're putting more on ourselves, I suppose, to, to take that leadership position and what.

Where I see it shifting is where it becomes more of a tailwind. So as we work together more, especially commercially, we are actually supporting each other. It's easier to do business. We're all more successful and that builds that momentum. Like you say, it's a flywheel. It's changing it from being just a grind into actually every time we do it, we're gaining momentum. And that's super exciting. I think that shift is there. I think it's a real shame from a political standpoint that we're moving almost backwards at the moment, but that just drives more motivation for us as more commercial organizations to step up and, and push change through. And working, working together, we can do that in ways that we just can't on our own. So that, yeah, that's probably the biggest thing for me.

Nice. Yeah, I think.

Yeah, I think the government thing for me, that, that was a, that was a big moment for me when I sort of went down my rabbit hole of purpose, discovery and trying to work out what's going on and how does the world actually work. I remember it would have been about 2014, 2015 maybe. I read an article in the Washington Post and one of the professors from that part of the world had done a study of the influence of business on the political system in the US and basically the article was literally your vote doesn't count, does not matter who you vote in, because the lobbyists and big business will basically influence government to such an extent that literally your vote makes no difference. And so that for me was a real big piece of the jigsaw puzzle. And the other thing I sort of put onto that as well is init, you know, people go, oh, Barack Obama, oh, it's amazing. He was initially anti same sex marriage and it was only when it became a vote winning issue that he flipped and went, okay, no, I'm going to, I'm going to swap sides. And so to me, this was the proof that actually we have the power to dictate who serves us. Because if we create the environment and create the world and demand of government, this is what we want to look like. And we ultimately, we become the lobbyists and we become the influencers. That's how we will create the impact. So yeah, I 100% agree that business for good. And that's why I got so committed to the B Corp movement. This is the way that we will influence the most number of people the most quickly is by proving that doing good works for everyone rather than the traditional way of doing it. So I'm going to Try something really, really different here. We've never done this before. I'm going to share my screen on the podcast for the video, but because you mentioned something which, there's a term for it, there's a model for it. So it's called the Dunphy model of adoption of sustainability. I don't know if you studied that in your, in your thing. A good mate of mine, Tim Loftus, who was the sustainable, he was the brand manager at Kathmandu, he led Kathmandu on their sustainability journey. And he, he talked about how initially he was trying to create all these initiatives, you know, making environmental change. And the senior leadership were just kind of like, yeah, we're just not that interested, to be honest. And it was only when he got to show them that there was a profitability and an efficiency gain that they suddenly went, oh, okay, we get it. And he tells a story about how he sat down with the CFO and the CEO and was like, hey, do you know how much we spend on lighting our stores every year? And they were like, no, not the top of our heads. And he goes, well, I can tell you exactly, it's like, you know, $1.4 million or whatever. And he's like, how would you like it if I could half your spend on, on lighting on the power bill? They're like, like, yep, well, we'd be interested. It's cool. They're called LEDs. And so, you know, he got the environmental win of having a better or a less impactful product lighting their stores, but there was an operational win. And I think this is what we're seeing. I don't know if you saw at the end of last year, there was a report issued by B Lab on the financial performance of B Corps versus the evidence. Is there like the long term impact of B Corp is it will. It's a net benefit. And even in, I think it was, out of 16 out of 18 reports that were reviewed, the short term impact was, was either neutral or net positive on your income. So the whole, oh, this doing good costs us money. It's like, no, not doing good is going to cost you money. So, yeah, I think we're definitely, we're at the tipping point, that's for sure. Exciting times.

So what's. So now that, yeah, you've been, you've been running a B corp now for a few years, do you have any challenges on balancing purpose and profit or are you kind of way over that hump? I mean, because when starting out, it's kind of like any contract's a good Contract to pay the mortgage, keep food coming for the kids and the wife. Yeah. Have you had any moments of kind of like don't really want to take their money but I might have to or has it been plain sailing?

Yeah, we've always been pretty clear on it. I think like you say, definitely you have more choice as you mature as a business.

But I'm someone that's pretty candid and people know where I stand pretty quickly. And so that's, it's never been too much of an issue for us. We certainly have had pretty clear ideas of kind of where some of those lines are of who we will and won't work for. We certainly, like I said earlier, we don't solely work with the for purpose.

Sector. We absolutely work with commercial companies and they'll all have a different kind of range around, you know, where impact or purpose and values sit within their organization. And that's totally fine. Everyone's kind of, you know, there's lots of different motivators for people to be in business and to run companies. And I think for us there are some, there are some clear things that we would or wouldn't do. And I think the again that's one of the values of B Corp is it kind of gives you that place to stand, to go, oh, you know, we can't do that, we're a B Corp. Yeah, it's just not, you know, B Corp doesn't have necessarily hard and fast rules but for us it'd be like if we did that, that'd just look wrong. So I think that's been a really key part of it. I think on the balancing side, one of the things has been the way we sort of manage the impact side of our business as we look at the way we run the company, the way we're working with our customers. So finding opportunities to drive positive impact through, whether it's like productive management of E waste or automation or driving efficiency using technology for that impact. And the third aspect is direct donations. So we donate 1% of our revenue to non profits and then we donate pro bono time and discounted services. And what we did found was the balance around we're just doing too much and so kind of keeping the balance between the pro bono time and discounts like where that was going and kind of keeping that focused in the areas that we wanted to see the impact in. So yeah, less about who we wouldn't or would or wouldn't work with, that's always been a part of how we've approached things and more Just balancing the, you know, you need to be commercially successful in order to have impact. And so making sure that we're kind of keeping our eye on that and figuring out just the right ways to. Ways to do that. And that's, that's always going to be an ongoing journey as well. We're never going to have it completely right, but we'll. But we'll always have it as a.

Focus and that's the key. There's been some really good examples of really socially led companies who have folded because they focus too much on the impact and not enough on the revenue. And it's really, it's a tricky balance. And I think that's. You need to be in a position of being able to do the impact. It's better that you're a more sustainable, financially sustainable outfit so that you can do more good over more time, rather than a flash in the pan. Hey, look at us. We made a massive donation or we did free work for the last six months. That's why we've got no money to pay you. Yeah. Do you have a. Do you have a. I mean, I presume do you have any tech or a system that you use to. Something that you've created internally to measure that and track that?

Yeah, honestly, not the best. Not the thing we're best at, ironically, but yeah. So we shifted to Salesforce for our CRM and service platform and that was one of the key drivers was as being able to do. There's a lot of tools out there designed specifically for IT companies to manage their professional services and tool sets, but they tend to be quite constrained in terms of the other things you can do with them. Whereas with Salesforce having that ability to track different things. And so whether it's, for example, for our climate positive certification, we don't just track our internal footprint, we track and offset the carbon of every laptop or every piece of hardware we've sold. And so the ability to manage, you know, what types of devices, how many that were sold, et cetera, managing all of that and then looking at the carbon footprint, the EPE rating, et cetera, that's still very much a work in progress, but that's the vision, is that that all sits within one platform to enable us to track that. And obviously the, the kind of impact discounts and time that we provide to customers and the pro bono time in there as well.

Nice. Yeah, because I think that's. That's one of the key things, isn't it? If you, you know, if you do the good, you got to you got to track it so that you can report it. For B Corp, if nothing else.

So yeah, looking to the future, 10 years from now, what's that going to be? 2034. That's quite scary to think because 10 years seems like a long time, but it's going to go pretty quick. Yeah. What does the sort of the future of B Corp look like for you? Looking into the future?

I'm pretty excited about it to be honest. I think there's obviously the changes in the standards for B Corp certification are in progress now and I'm really excited to see that again. That standard constantly lifting in terms of what we're doing, what we're expecting from people. I think the momentum behind it, although as we've said, the political environment seems to be going in one direction for most people, whether they're businesses or individuals, the drive towards purpose is really, really strong. And I think that more and more companies are understanding that they want to attract the best talent if they want to have meaningful work for their employees, if they want to sort of drive that long term sustainability and profitability working for purpose. And through, you know, frameworks like B Corp are delivering all of those things. So I, I see it going really, really well. I think the, there's always threats around, you know, what, what could, what could derail that process? But the way that the momentum's building and the motivation for people. Yeah, pretty excited about it.

I agree. Yeah. Just saying the constant. And you know, we're getting people reaching out to us from all sorts of industry groups that you kind of go, wow, you've heard of B Corp. Okay, well that's, that's interesting. You know, there's been a couple of companies that I've literally said to them if I was going to write down my list of the top thousand companies that I thought who would ring me and say yeah, we want to do B Corp, you would not probably be on the top 10,000 hazard, but you're here and that's cool.

Cool.

Yeah, we'll have that conversation. So yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's definitely. Yeah. And I think you know, every B Corp particularly, I mean, well, I guess all of them really service companies like, like yours as well as the consumer brands that the more, you know, it's just like as soon as another company joins, it's like, well their ecosystem is now made aware of it and you know, people start connecting the dots and it's like, oh, so that fix and fog in my fridge, that B thing. Oh, and that guy Mike, who we're just working with, he mentioned some B thing.

Oh, okay.

What is that thing? So yeah, I think there's a lot of little mini Patagonias now all around the world, all having a bit of an influence on what's going on and talking to their customers and supply chains and what have you. Super cool. So what are the big plans for Brightly? Anything on the impact front or just any big plans for the future for 20? We're early in the year in 2024, so new year, New Year, vaguely still.

Yeah, absolutely.

Look, I think a lot of it's more of the same in terms of the. What we've been doing. The way we've been working has been working really well. We've been able to grow.

Without compromising our values. In fact, kind of reinforcing what we're doing in the way we're doing it. So it's more of the same, but more of it and better. I think the, you know, we've got work within our team around recruitment, training, development, building out the. It's always interesting as you grow the challenge of communicating your strategy and your values as the team grows and ensuring that we've got that really well bedded in. So got quite a bit of work around that and then with our customers it's just awesome to see we're getting asked more and more around, okay, well you know, you've been working on this B corp or this climate stuff, what does that look like? How can you help us? And so we're excited about doing more because you know, day to day, ultimately we're helping people with technology challenges, we're helping them choose directions of drive change, we're helping them solve problems and the kind of, the ability to weave in more of that impact into their day to day work is. That's pretty exciting.

Nice. More of the same, just more. Why not? Good place to be. Super cool. So for people who want to get hold of you, where do they go and find brightly?

Brightly NZ on. On the website we're on LinkedIn. I'm on there plenty. Or give us a call. We're just based in central Auckland, work out of a co working space at gridokl. It's an awesome place if you're, if you're in town, if you're looking for a hot desk, lots of, lots of good folks here too. Lots of other impact orgs around. So it's a good place to hang out and yeah, give us a shout.

And you're also one of the B leaders for B Local Tamaki Pakado. So I've mentioned B Locals before a couple times, but B Locals are local events held regionally all around the world. So just Google be local and your nearest city or region and hopefully one will come up. But yeah, Mike is one of the crew who runs the B Local. So if you're. If you're bcot curious, if you've listened to this episode or any others and you're like, oh, might want to go and check it out. But just on the download then, yeah, keep a lookout for B Local events. There's Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, represented in New Zealand, and then there's a bunch in Aussie, the us, uk. They're all over the world. So, yeah, if you're big curious, yeah, get amongst it. Super cool, mate. Well, we'll leave you to it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your work. Keep up the good work, keep doing what you're doing and have a great weekend.

Awesome. Thanks, Tim. You too.

Catch you soon.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp, how to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.